Twilight 2013 - How are you going to use it?

[Haven]

Just wondering for future discussions....

Seems like all of the questions around here are centered around Twilight v1 or v2 and the canon timeline and wondered if anyone was planning on making the move?


I am probably going to be using the rules from Twilight 2013 and use my own timeline (which is a previous post around here)
But i would consider it basically option one v3 rules and timeline.



So wondered what y'all thought - even though most of the discussion for v3 is understandably on the 93 Studio Forums.

[kato13]

I put other. For the most part I am taking a wait and see attitude. Once I see reviews from people I trust (the people here) I will make my decision on purchasing the game. Given I am a child of the cold war I cannot imagine using the T2013 timeline over the V1 one, so at best I might use some of the rules and equipment stats.

Oh I changed the poll creation time to 10 min to prevent the problem you had before. Also deleted the duplicate thread.

[Haven]

I personally never really liked the Twilight v2.2 autofire/damage rules and it always kept me from fully adopting and embracing the rules.

I was always constantly dabbling in house rules and other rules systems but would always come back to Twilight rules as a 'standard'....


but its always the post-apoc military rpg/story that always kept me interested.

Now... i've come up with my own modified present day timeline and love the Twilight 2013 rules.

So... i am pumped!


NOTE: I wouldn't judge the Twilight 2013 time line on the little that has been released. I still don't like France being the country that launches the first nuke... but it for me where you wind up with the time line is the part that counts and you wind up with a really cool place for the PCs to interact with.
(kinda like forgiving a movie you like for being slightly less than realistic for the sake of the movie as a whole)

[kato13]

My system is a really odd custom mix of the following

V1 vehicle rules and timeline
CORPS/Timelords 75% of my Character attributes and task resolution.
V2 half of the Character generation system, some disease, rads,fatigue

I have pulled and customized individual rules from more than 20 different games so if there is good stuff in 2013 I am sure I will use some.

[Snake Eyes]

Max is currently running a bi-weekly 2013 campaign that I play in. If I ever run one myself it will be with the 2013 rule set and I'll modify the timeline and/or setting modified to suit my needs.

[Grimace]

I'll likely end up not buying it. The timeline doesn't interest me at all and some of the parts of rules that I've viewed seem needlessly complicated. I know they've created it with scalable rules so that you can do various levels of complexity, but some of the non-combat related rules seemed quite set and complicated. Dare I say, needlessly complex.

Now, since I've not completely, absolutely decided against it, if I hear enough good vibes from enough people, I may change my opinion. I know there are people who are just ga-ga over it, and that's great for them, but for me it'll take a heck of a lot more persuading.

[kato13]

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

[Raellus]

Welcome to the old folks' home, CStock88 and Haven!

I think it's cool that you young bucks are into T2K at all. I can't really blame ya'll for going with the timeline that seems most relevant to you.

As a kid growing up during the later years of the Cold War, the v1.0 timeline feels most real to me. I remember when Red Dawn came out. My parents wouldn't let me see it but the trailers on TV both terrified and energized me. Terrified because I lived in Colorado. Energized 'cause I got a kick out of daydreaming about taking on the Russians with my friends just like the Wolverines. I guess you'd have to live through the fear (paranoia even), distrust, and jingoism of that era to fully appreciate the original Twilight scenario. When I first got my hands on the v1.0 box, I felt like I was seeing a glimpse of a very real, very grim future.

I also like alternative history feel that the v1.0 timeline has now. It's the world that could have been had USSR not collapsed and, for the most part, feels very real.

Anyway, if T2013 gets you excited about military-esque adventuring in a post-apoc world, then it must be doing something right. I'm eager to get a look at it.

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I have to buy it first -- unfortunately, this month I had a couple of emergencies. The heater and AC both died (it's central air, so their tied together), and that cost $2500 to fix. At the end of last month, one of my little guys, Winston, was diagnosed with diabetes, and he's still having to get a lot of blood tests and rechecks to get his insulin dose right. And next month is probably out too, with Christmas and continuing checks for Winston. So it may be January before I get a look at T2K 2013.

I must say, though, I'm beginning to wonder about the timeline aspect, based on what's written here. Some other things may be out of whack as well. Maybe a T2K 2013 v2 in it's future?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

BTW, before anyone starts ribbing me about making sure to get the large print edition, I'm 34.

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

Thanks, Paul. I needed that!

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Awww, you're just a kid, Raellus! You're younger than my baby brother!

And I have kids older than the lot of you.
But we have a three generation Twilight family too.

(Wondering what that has to do with 2013.. )
Grae

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

So? Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals? If that's the case Law is right.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

So? Are some of them among the amateurs thinking of themselves as professionals? If that's the case Law is right.

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway? Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals." Who are these professionals selling their goods to anyway? Us. If the first set of buyers aren't happy with the product, word will get around -- and the product will be improved or perish. That's the way the marketplace works.

What is a valid idea? Forget about the sentence you quoted it might not be clear. I'm more or less saying the same than you (look at my previous posts).

The thing about buyers being happy or not about the product is not always true. Bad words can come out before you get any buyers and the words getting around are not that trusty. Many game don't get the time to improve and they perish from a lack of interest justified only by advices taken from people who never bought the game.

In the case of twilight 2013, they will need some improvement, and a lot of add-on. I found that sad for a 348 pages book. I haven't look at most of the rules yet, on the other hand, but I have already seen some interesting things in them (they speak in km/h and in meters; great I'm growing tired of speaking in cliks or watever fony measures). I would love to see some clearer elements on newer equipments, however: What is a muscle car? There are no illustration at all in this section (erf!) and very few vehicles. By the way there is a very good point for them: they recommend this forum.

[CStock88]

Well, all I can really say in follow up, is that everyone's entitled to their own opinions and preferences, naturally. The Twilight 2000 scenario is still really enjoyable. I also understand what you're saying about the people who initially contacted this forum - I'd be put off by that sort of behavior, too.

And by the way, if the DC Working Group's stuff is of the same quality as the thread about the JCS, CENTCOM, and Operation Omega, then I gotta say, I'd be really thrilled to read their finished product! Looks really cool, and is, IMHO, a major update on the Twilight 2000 scenario concept.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

That's not really a valid idea -- aren't all of us here basically amateurs at publishing and game development? And yet, as long-time players and GMs, we probably know more about the subject than so-called "professionals."

I guess I am an amateur. I've never made a penny (and don't really want to) by publishing game materials. That doesn't mean that we (in the DC Group) don't aim to turn out product as good as or better than what professional game designers turn out. If fact, we'd like to turn out "improved/revised" versions of the original canon materials, using the familiar GDW appearance and improved graphical content and revised/more detailed background. Paul, your web site is far above and beyond what the professionals have turned out by a huge margin!

As far as subject matter knowledge, we (like many others here) are not amateurs. Law, Flamingo and I are current or former NCOs with over 10 deployments between us. We are all school-trained historians and I've got a master's in national security policy and have worked on logistics at both the retail and wholesale level - in a period of a few years I worked on deploying both multiple corps and my company. As Kato alluded to, when the 2013 project came looking for volunteers the attitude was not very positive - since we had not published games before they discounted our professional RL abilities.

From the material that has been leaked (I have yet to see the finished product) the 2013 timeline is much more fantasy than the v1 timeline was in 1984. We're working on answering more of the v1 timeline what if? posed by GDW in 1984; IMHO the 2013 timeline what if? requires a lot more answers and fantasy to get there from here.

With that said, I hope that the 2013 rules are more an improvement over the v1 and v2.2 rules. I personally never liked the v2.2. adapted Traveller character generation system and the pretty clumsy v1 combat rules. With 15 years of RPG development between v2.2 and 2013 I can see how the rules could be radically different. I see rules as a tool to help the GM tell a story - and now we have a fifth method (v1, v2.2, Gurps, 2013 and the Targan-system-that-shall-not speak-its-name) to tell three possible related stories (v1, v2 and 2013 timelines). I think this is great, to each their own.

CStock88, I'll start a new thread and repost what we've put out so far.

[Targan]

I will have a lot more to say about T:2013 both here and elsewhere very soon but let me say this now, in brief: I'm not really down with the 2013 timeline (I agree strongly with many of the views of those at this forum who are critical of the timeline) but...

[this may come as a huge shock to those of you who know well my love for the system I currently use]

... the 2013 combat and character generation systems are the bomb. Seriously very, very good work. In my opinion those two facets alone justify its purchase. The new rules absolutely address most of the problems that many people active on this forum have previously pointed out with previous editions of T2K. I think that combining the revised timeline being developed by the DC Working Group and these new 2013 rules could be used to create new campaigns of real quality and excellence.

I urge those of you who have serious problems with the 2013 timeline to ignore that timeline and have a good look at the 2013 combat and char gen rules because they are things of great beauty.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

Kato, I've been chewing this one over since this thread came to my attention last week, and I have to admit that I'm more than a little perplexed by your statement here. I kept a fairly low profile on both this board and the various T2k mailing lists because of a few vocally negative reactions to early information about the 2013 project, and because Keith (smokewolf) was handling playtester/consultant recruiting along with all other personnel matters. I know a few of our playtesters are active here, but I think it'd be obvious if you were referring to them. As far as I can recall, the only person to whom I've coldly and deliberately been an ass in my "2013 systems guy" persona was Justin Oldham on our forums, and, given the provocation he offered, I still stand by my statements in that thread. If I said something in this forum's previous incarnation that gave offense to a specific member or the general audience, please bring it to my attention.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

I've often said that this industry is really more of a subsidized hobby. In a lot of cases, the only difference between "amateur" and "professional" is that the so-called pro was lucky enough to catch the attention of a developer or publisher and stupid enough to sign a contract. However, no one gets rich doing this. We're all doing it out of passion.

- C.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Kato, I've been chewing this one over since this thread came to my attention last week, and I have to admit that I'm more than a little perplexed by your statement here. I kept a fairly low profile on both this board and the various T2k mailing lists because of a few vocally negative reactions to early information about the 2013 project, and because Keith (smokewolf) was handling playtester/consultant recruiting along with all other personnel matters. I know a few of our playtesters are active here, but I think it'd be obvious if you were referring to them. As far as I can recall, the only person to whom I've coldly and deliberately been an ass in my "2013 systems guy" persona was Justin Oldham on our forums, and, given the provocation he offered, I still stand by my statements in that thread. If I said something in this forum's previous incarnation that gave offense to a specific member or the general audience, please bring it to my attention.

As I said in my previous thread I don't remember all the details nor everyone who was involved. I am not a negative person and I don't hold on to negativity. I do remember arguments about DD214s??? Accusations that people were not what they claimed to be, and in general the attitude of if you don't like what we are saying screw you.

I pull away from negativity, I don't focus on it, and that was my impulse after the first contact with this board. It could have been deadline stress. It could have been a lack of understanding of the general level of respect I expected on this board. It could have been me coming into the middle of an argument. I don't know. I just know that something very early on turned me WAY off. My memory could very easily be flawed but I cannot fathom how my excitement could turn to dejection over nothing.

As far as I am concerned I consider it water under the bridge. Everyone I have dealt with recently has been more than honorable and I am looking forward to getting the book soon.

[smokewolf]

Kato, I PM'ed you.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

I've often said that this industry is really more of a subsidized hobby. In a lot of cases, the only difference between "amateur" and "professional" is that the so-called pro was lucky enough to catch the attention of a developer or publisher and stupid enough to sign a contract. However, no one gets rich doing this. We're all doing it out of passion.

- C.

So much truth into this.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by kato13

I don't want to speak for law but I understand his position to a degree. When T2013 started development the people from there who originally contacted this board were quite arrogant and condescending to our members. I will admit it left a very bad taste in my mouth which has never really gone away. (Just want to note smokewolf has been totally honorable and I have no beef with him at all)

The DC working group (of which Law is a member) have crafted wonderfully logical and beautifully flowing time lines. They are working harder than anyone I know to provide us the best and most accurate background information. If in his opinion his work is superior I do not doubt him. The evidence I have seen supports that position IMHO.

The true irony is that Law will give his work away while T2013 will charge for it (not that I blame them). The "amateur" who does it only out of passion not personal gain will actually have more esteem in my eyes, even if the quality of the work was equal.

That being said we are all friends here and I hope that T2013 never creates factions and just gives everyone more options on whatever path they choose.

Kato brother... uhmm.. who was condesending? I hope I wasn't 'cause I've been workign onthis project since 1996 (yea... 1996). When Mr. Taylor got a hold of me (early 2006 I think) I jumped right on board. BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution - we both turned it down.

I DON'T wanna start any flaming or anything but guys, really, please look at the rules and read them over before you make any decisions. If you're not happy withthe timeline hey then use your own or use the old one. The timeline is "vague" for a reason.

AND Im a HUGE gear whore - let me correect myself - WHORE and Im very happy with the work that was done in the book.

We are ALL brothers in here with the same goal in mind. Having fun correct?

Max

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

Kato brother... uhmm.. who was condesending? I hope I wasn't 'cause I've been workign onthis project since 1996 (yea... 1996). When Mr. Taylor got a hold of me (early 2006 I think) I jumped right on board. BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution - we both turned it down.

I honestly don't remember all the details as I was not personally involved, though i believe accusations of lying were thrown about. I remember being really excited and then dejected after seeing really bad interactions. As someone who had thought about T2k practically every day (little things like while driving thinking "what would have happened to that fence, generator, or water tower") it must have been serious to have deflated my balloon like that.

I just want to make it clear that my recent interactions with the 93GS people have been exemplary and my interest has now overcome all of my original negativity. I was only being honest about what I remember.

[Snake Eyes]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

BTW gang ... neither Snake or I get paid for our contribution

It's true. I'm just a fan. And happy to be here. I fly the 93 Games flag around these parts because I'm an old school Twilight player who thinks 2013 is a cool, playable system that really captures the feel of post-apocalyptic survival with equal parts grit and tactical realism - not because I get compensated for it. Although, come to think of it, Keith does usually pay for beers when he's in town.

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Yea he does pay for Indian food..... btw - let me just clear somethign up I don't hold any stock or anything in 93GS. I re-read my post and to me it sounded like I was part of it. I'm not - just a fan.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Twilight2000v3MM

I DON'T wanna start any flaming or anything but guys, really, please look at the rules and read them over before you make any decisions. If you're not happy withthe timeline hey then use your own or use the old one. The timeline is "vague" for a reason.


Max

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

I did not have my hand at writign the "destroctor" part of the rules. We were all asked to read through it and see if it made sense. While not all of us agreed 100% with EVERYTHING we all thought it was broad enough that it was plausible. Remember gang this is a game and fictional at that. ANYTHING is possible - look we even elected a Black president with a Islamic name who can't/won't prove that he was born in the USA.

[smokewolf]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I can understand that. Then, may be you'll have to fill in some of the gap in one way or another. I came up with some similar stuff in y own timeline but some of your choice seem strange. May be you could add some precision to it at your website (and I'm not talking of open talk at the forum).

So long as things stay civil and respectful, I've no problem sitting down and typing about the thoughts behind the timeline and such. Here or my place doesn't matter to me (if here, if Kato has no problem I'll dual post everything at my place). Feel free to start up a thread asking something and I'll be happy to see if I can help make sense of it all from our point of view.