The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by copeab

And an essentially stupid weapon as well, an oversized semi-suppressed revolver. Probably more expensive than an original bolt-action design firing subsonic ammo, as well.

Sure, but part of the RFP (per the article) was the capability for rapid follow-up without ejecting cases. I can think of a couple other ways to do that, but all of them have varying disadvantages.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

As The Dark mentioned, the RfP requires the ability to retain the cases (i.e. non-ejection of the cases) but having the ability for rapid follow-up shots. A revolver is the simplest way to achieve that and also without having to remove your trigger hand from the weapon (e.g. bolt-action).
So rather than thinking of the weapon as a strange or long, tech path, it's actually an easier tech path given the requirements (aside from the special ammo it used).

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As The Dark mentioned, the RfP requires the ability to retain the cases (i.e. non-ejection of the cases) but having the ability for rapid follow-up shots. A revolver is the simplest way to achieve that and also without having to remove your trigger hand from the weapon (e.g. bolt-action).
So rather than thinking of the weapon as a strange or long, tech path, it's actually an easier tech path given the requirements (aside from the special ammo it used).

Even the special ammo doesn't sound that bizarre - it's basically the same as the Soviet SP-4 round that was used in the Stechkin and PSS or the 10mm QSPR round used in modified S&W Model 29 revolvers. Rare and specialized, certainly, but both the US and USSR had already played with that concept.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Even the special ammo doesn't sound that bizarre - it's basically the same as the Soviet SP-4 round that was used in the Stechkin and PSS or the 10mm QSPR round used in modified S&W Model 29 revolvers. Rare and specialized, certainly, but both the US and USSR had already played with that concept.

You're quite right, I've even read of some people who reload their own ammo playing with the concept of semi-telescoped rounds so it's not as if it requires a high-tech factory to produce. I added the part about the ammunition as an afterthought and probably should have put more thought into the statement!

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As The Dark mentioned, the RfP requires the ability to retain the cases (i.e. non-ejection of the cases) but having the ability for rapid follow-up shots. A revolver is the simplest way to achieve that and also without having to remove your trigger hand from the weapon (e.g. bolt-action).
So rather than thinking of the weapon as a strange or long, tech path, it's actually an easier tech path given the requirements (aside from the special ammo it used).

The Nagant M1895 revolver is one of the few that an armorer might be able to mount a silencer on. With a revolver, you don't have failure to feed problems, the powder charge has no direct action on the loading cycle.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

With a revolver, you don't have failure to feed problems, the powder charge has no direct action on the loading cycle.

And this is probably a more important feature than any of the things that I have mentioned (I wish I had thought of it haha!).
When this situation occurs, you can cycle the next round faster (and without taking your hands from their positions on the weapon) with a revolver rifle than you can with a semi-auto or even bolt-action rifle - and there's less chance of shifting the point of aim when you do so.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

And this is probably a more important feature than any of the things that I have mentioned (I wish I had thought of it haha!).
When this situation occurs, you can cycle the next round faster (and without taking your hands from their positions on the weapon) with a revolver rifle than you can with a semi-auto or even bolt-action rifle - and there's less chance of shifting the point of aim when you do so.

The Nagant is designed to cam the cylinder forward to mate with the barrel to retain all the pressure from the powder charge. The idea was that the poor quality control of the Czar's arsenals gun powder would be overcome this way. There isn't any cylinder blow by.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Sure, but part of the RFP (per the article) was the capability for rapid follow-up without ejecting cases. I can think of a couple other ways to do that, but all of them have varying disadvantages.

Put a cage over the ejection port, as was tested for the M1911 in WWI to allow it to be used inside an aircraft without spitting hot brass casings into the interior.

Revolvers are almost impossible to effectively suppress due to the lack of an highly effective seal between cylinder and barrel.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The key word here is almost, most are too troublesome to bother with due to the lack of gas sealing but there are some designs that are more suited to the task.
The Nagant M1895 revolver used gas sealing as part of its normal operation. This allowed it to be suppressed at around the same noise level as any supressed semi-auto pistol.

The point being, that supressing a revolver can be done. And with the idea being to produce a rapid, single shot, supressed weapon that retains the cases, putting a metal cage over the ejection port of a semi-auto would likely cause a distinctive noise as the shell hit the cage. There's also the problem of just how big do you make the cage to allow it to effectively capture all the cases without filling up to the point of jamming the action and how unwieldy does that make the weapon?

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

The key word here is almost, most are too troublesome to bother with due to the lack of gas sealing but there are some designs that are more suited to the task.
The Nagant M1895 revolver used gas sealing as part of its normal operation. This allowed it to be suppressed at around the same noise level as any supressed semi-auto pistol.

There was also a suppressed S&W 625 made for a German police unit that used a clamshell covering over the cylinder to contain the gap gases. The PSDR 3 used a subsonic .45 ACP round and a large suppressor to get the sound down to 90 dB.

The point being, that supressing a revolver can be done. And with the idea being to produce a rapid, single shot, supressed weapon that retains the cases, putting a metal cage over the ejection port of a semi-auto would likely cause a distinctive noise as the shell hit the cage. There's also the problem of just how big do you make the cage to allow it to effectively capture all the cases without filling up to the point of jamming the action and how unwieldy does that make the weapon?

Yeah, a cage/bag over the ejection port was one of the other ideas I had thought of, but it tends to be unwieldy (as you shoot, you get more weight hanging off one side of the gun), it's not truly silent (even with a canvas bag, you'll have brass hitting brass), and if you have any problem with ejection, it's much slower and harder to clear.

Another idea was a forward-ejecting system (similar to Kel-Tec's RFB) with a manually locked tube, but that would be severely limited in capacity, and if it wasn't cleared, it could do nasty things to the rifle's innards.

[ArmySGT.]

Have you considered just using the sub sonic piston type ammunition with a silenced revolver? Not that it may need a can with piston ammo.

[ArmySGT.]

Lever action rifles are also very good for silencing. .44 special out of .44 mag slowed to under 1150 fps is a option as you are able to keep large grain (mass) bullets to retain stopping power.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Yeah, a cage/bag over the ejection port was one of the other ideas I had thought of, but it tends to be unwieldy (as you shoot, you get more weight hanging off one side of the gun), it's not truly silent (even with a canvas bag, you'll have brass hitting brass), and if you have any problem with ejection, it's much slower and harder to clear.

I doubt the brass hitting brass is much louder than the revolver's hammer hitting the base of the firing pin. In a rifle configuration with a bipod, a cage with fired casings is unlikely to unbalance the weapon. After all, many successful SMGs had side-mounted magazines that were more unweildy.

[Draq]

For those of you wanting I little more intimate relationship with the stoner 63 https://youtu.be/ZSFbXT6ZPjc hopefully this means more stoner videos.

[ArmySGT.]

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Draq

For those of you wanting I little more intimate relationship with the stoner 63 https://youtu.be/ZSFbXT6ZPjc hopefully this means more stoner videos.

It was nice that even with only parts for the automatic rifle present, Ian was able to give viewers some idea as to how the other weapons were assembled using the receiver.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Draq

For those of you wanting I little more intimate relationship with the stoner 63 https://youtu.be/ZSFbXT6ZPjc hopefully this means more stoner videos.

as long as the videos are about the vehicle and not the stoners I knew in college