NATO Small Arms production in late stages of Twilight War

[Ancestor]

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Ancestor

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

It wouldn't surprise me to see all manner of "livestock" being driven along (as in a cattle drive, NOT in a truck) with the logistics tail. The US Army was forced to open a school for handling pack mules during the most recent deployments. The mules were just the best solution for certain units in Afghanistan. I'm guessing the US (and NATO) would "hire" a bunch of "Civilian Contractors" to handle such livestock in Twilight.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

It wouldn't surprise me to see all manner of "livestock" being driven along (as in a cattle drive, NOT in a truck) with the logistics tail. The US Army was forced to open a school for handling pack mules during the most recent deployments. The mules were just the best solution for certain units in Afghanistan. I'm guessing the US (and NATO) would "hire" a bunch of "Civilian Contractors" to handle such livestock in Twilight.

Military tractor trailer could pull a commandeerd live stock trailer.... Or use the stake and pallet trailer. There are also refridgerated vans and freezer vans in inventory.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Military tractor trailer could pull a commandeerd live stock trailer.... Or use the stake and pallet trailer. There are also refridgerated vans and freezer vans in inventory.

I would be concerned about the diversion of fuel from combat units for transport of livestock or refrigeration. I think it would be more "resource feasible" to hire civilians to "drive" cattle, sheep, or goats behind the combat units. These animals really don't need feed hay or grain as a food source for short 100km to 150km drives. You just let them graze on the drive. Texas Longhorns and Brahmas can and do survive completely on graze (although they both look anorexic to this former Black Angus herder). These two breeds have another advantage that most milk and beef cattle don't have today. They can birth without assistance (google "Calf Chains" for an education on this). Horses are a very different story. A horse NEEDS grain if it is to do any work for you. Horses without grain will deteriorate very quickly if used for work. This all assumes an orderly/planned movement of a military unit. If a military unit were "moving with a purpose"; I'm betting they'd just "forage" for supplies (much to the distress of the locals).

[Raellus]

I can imagine chicken coops, rabbit hutches, and small pig and goat pens festooning the top decks of military vehicles as they move from laager site to laager site (assuming combat is not expected imminently).

[Draq]

Another prime example of a franken-gun. Behold the ak/SKS/fal hybrid. http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=54230.0

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Draq

Another prime example of a franken-gun. Behold the ak/SKS/fal hybrid. http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=54230.0

Nothing quite like "Field Expedient," functioning "parts guns."

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

I would be concerned about the diversion of fuel from combat units for transport of livestock or refrigeration. I think it would be more "resource feasible" to hire civilians to "drive" cattle, sheep, or goats behind the combat units.

To slow to keep up and to vulnerable to opportunists. A desperate hungry man could shoot one cow and there is little you could do about it. A desperate and hungry village could stampede or scatter a herd and take several head for themselves.

This, also cows moving at 10 miles per day are going to be outpaced by unit movements that can be 100 miles away in a single day. That would leave them further vulnerable to bandits.

Last, cattle drives of the American Old West were either from winter to summer graze or to market. That market could be hundreds of miles away, but the cowboy expected only to be on the trail for a few months then home with a good purse.

Civilian cattle drivers in T2K might sign on indefinitely because it does mean they eat. However, can you expect them to cross borders and enter an area that might be hostile to them?

[Apache6]

A sutler or victualer is a civilian merchant who sells provisions to an army in the field, in camp, or in quarters. Sutlers sold wares from the back of a wagon or a temporary tent, traveling with an army or to remote military outposts.

These merchants often followed the armies of the American Revolution and the American Civil War to try to sell their merchandise to the soldiers. Generally, the sutlers built their stores within the limits of an army post or just off the defense line, and first needed to receive a license from the Commander prior to construction; they were, by extension, also subject to his regulations.

Sutlers, frequently the only local suppliers of non-military goods, often developed monopolies on simple commodities like tobacco, coffee, or sugar and rose to powerful stature. Since government-issued coinage was scarce during the Civil War, sutlers often conducted transactions using a particular type of Civil War token known as a sutler token.[3]

Sutlers played a major role in the recreation of army men between 1865 and 1890. Sutlers' stores outside of military posts were usually also open to non-military travelers and offered gambling, drinking, and prostitution.

[FPSlover]

Those are a damn fine articles. I may have to use them myself.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

To slow to keep up and to vulnerable to opportunists. A desperate hungry man could shoot one cow and there is little you could do about it. A desperate and hungry village could stampede or scatter a herd and take several head for themselves.

This, also cows moving at 10 miles per day are going to be outpaced by unit movements that can be 100 miles away in a single day. That would leave them further vulnerable to bandits.

Last, cattle drives of the American Old West were either from winter to summer graze or to market. That market could be hundreds of miles away, but the cowboy expected only to be on the trail for a few months then home with a good purse.

Civilian cattle drivers in T2K might sign on indefinitely because it does mean they eat. However, can you expect them to cross borders and enter an area that might be hostile to them?

That is why you would also have your logistics tail (made of mostly ox or horse drawn wagons?) moving with the herd. The few trucks that you would have left in your logistics would be making "runs" to the various units "in need" from your logistics train AS IT MOVED.

Most armored columns using modern fuel can only move about 150 km per load of fuel (with a 24 to 48 hr combat reserve). Units moving on BioDiesel or Ethanol would be hard pressed to move 100km on the same load of fuel. Assuming one move per week on average (the time for a large mobile still to "regenerate" your fuel capacity); The cattle drivers would just "catch up" to the forward element as it was preparing to move again. On a historical note; This is also about the same speed of both Russian and German Supply trains during the later years of WW2.

Another very important element in Logistics would be trains. Diesel Electric trains can easily be converted to run on natural gas and "cracked" coal oil. Their large carrying capacity and speed would make them strategic targets to be taken intact where ever they could be secured. An Army could move it's entire logistics tail in one move. This would allow large movements with full support.

[Ancestor]

Between this thread and the book I'm reading ("American By Blood", a Western by Andrew Huebner about three US Cavalry Scouts in the aftermath of Little Bighorn), I felt the need to post recipes for hardtack. Enjoy!
http://www.food.com/recipe/hardtack-109814

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Ancestor

Great stuff! I'm stealing this for my upcoming campaign. A couple of thoughts:

1. I loved the addition of soup. One of the things that I think the Army does well is soup. I think this, along with stew, would have been a staple of the 5th ID.

2. Any thoughts on eggs? Another thing the Army does well (look at the line omlette bar at any DFAC). Now, I'm not thinking there's going to be such a thing on at the field kitchen as 5th ID is jumping off on it's raid, BUT, chickens and eggs are fairly easy to keep and eggs are a great source of protein. Now, chickens are succeptible to disease if kept together in large numbers or come in contact with certain migratory waterfowl (which have probably already been shot by locals for food), but to me some type of arrangement such as "protection and tractor maintenance in exchange for some of your eggs" would be a pretty sweet deal for a German or Polish farmer.

Forgetting ducks, turkeys, and geese. Each provides meat, eggs, feathers (down coats), and are higher in fats than most chicken breeds. Rabbits in hutches provide meat and furs for winter clothes. Goats provide meat, fat, milk, and hides. Goats can also two small trailers or pack loads of 20 to 40 lbs. Each also does well on natural forage and doesn't need grains though those would improve final weight. Hogs and Boars don't provide anything except waste disposal until slaughter then it lard, meat, and very tough hide for high wear leather purposes.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

[Ancestor]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

Great point! There would definitely be competition for resources! I may work that into my game. Thanks!

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Forgetting ducks, turkeys, and geese. Each provides meat, eggs, feathers (down coats), and are higher in fats than most chicken breeds.

Common pigeons produce eggs, meat, and feathers, are extremely common and henceforth available, and can be kept in fairly small compartments; and most importantly, pigeon droppings are incredibly beneficial to soil nutrients and do not require the aging times that other dungs do. I posted on these boards a fair-sized note on urban farming that addressed the benefits of pigeons regarding urban homesteading in Armies of the Night.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The feed requirements for cows, horses, mules, and oxen would be to great a burden for a mobile unit. Only a unit in cantonment could pasture them or stock that much hay and grains..... which would count against ethanol production.

The use of urea from human urine applied to chopped hay, straw, and other less-suitable fodder (corn stalks, etc) can boost the nutrient availability of the material by 20%; this could offset the diversion of grains as cattle feedstock.