Poll - Favorite Battle Rifle

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by jester

I do own an L1A1, the Canadian variant and it is very accurate but there is no arraingmenet for windage so a mam sized target is hard to get past 300m.

Even 16 years after I last laid hands on an L1A1 I can say with absolute CERTAINTY there most definately IS windage adjustment contained within the rear leaf sight mounting.
You'll note two screws, on on each side. By loosening one half a turn and tightening the other half a turn you adjust the sight. I can't remember how far half a turn puts the point of impact at what range though.

If yor weapon does not have these two screws, you don't have an authentic weapon (at least not the right rear sight).

Even as a machinegunner, I was still able to score in the top 5% of may infantry battalion using the L1A1 and standard battle sights. You just need to know how to zero it properly and follow through on your shots.
The army states it's range to be effective to 300 metres and harrassing to 600 metres - in good hands it's accurate well over those battlefield ranges.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Even as a machinegunner, I was still able to score in the top 5% of may infantry battalion using the L1A1 and standard battle sights. You just need to know how to zero it properly and follow through on your shots.
The army states it's range to be effective to 300 metres and harrassing to 600 metres - in good hands it's accurate well over those battlefield ranges.

True. After I had zeroed my SLR I scored 100% against man sized targets on the 600m pop-up range on my very first range practice in the Army Reserve. I was lucky, it turned out I was a natural at land navigation and shooting. I certainly wasn't the perfect soldier in other areas though.

[jester]

You call it a drum it is called the "windage knob" or "elevation knob."

And you gents say that one should muck with adjustments in windage. But, if you wish to be accurate, to engage an enemy at range, you will have to study the wind, adjust for range in order to engage. It takes less than a couple of seconds to adjust your windage.

Using battle sights sure they should be generaly locked, And this does work for short ranges 300m or less. But, when you want to engage on man sized targets out to 500 and 600m and beyond well then it is critical and you will want fine adjustment.

And that gents is the thing, you want to be able to use the inherent accuracy of your weapon to its fullest. I dare say that for most, the potential for accuracy of the weapon is greater than the ability of the shooter. And for the 7.62 Nato cartridge, to limit to just 300m for a man sized target is under utilizing it.

As for the L1 vs M14, which weapon is easier to adjust windage if you had to?

As for adjusting the point of aim, that is called Kentucky Windage, which is far from accurate, and as state, not bad for 300m and less, you can even hit a man sized target at that range much of the time.

But, also, consider this, the ability to engage an enemy before they get close enough to engage, that will force them to to do a coolness check, since most would be very very upset at having to suffer accurate fire beyond your ability to return fire, so they just have to suffer and advance and take the casualties. When it comes to such, well, I'd like to be on the side handing out the damage at a range beyond the ability of my enemy.

I mean come on guys, we used to be able to nail a man sized target at 500m with the 16, it only has a bullet drop of about 6 feet at that distance. With anything in the 7.62 you have less drop, less affect by wind, damn, with practice 800m would be easy enough, before the shooter starts to fail <I can hardly see that far these days>

Next time I go to where my rifle is stored <Illegal to have in this state> I will check it out and see about those screws and make some adjustments.

[Ramjam]

L1A1 every time.

Yes it may only be semi-auto but at least you know it's going to hurt someone if they get hit by it.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by jester

You call it a drum it is called the "windage knob" or "elevation knob."

Drum was the best description I could come up with at the time.

Originally Posted by jester

Using battle sights sure they should be generaly locked, And this does work for short ranges 300m or less. But, when you want to engage on man sized targets out to 500 and 600m and beyond well then it is critical and you will want fine adjustment.

For our training, out to 400 metres was the job of the rifleman, out to 800 metres was the job of the machinegunner and although Section Fire could be conducted out to 600m, it wasn't reliant on individual accuracy, more the volume of fire.

Originally Posted by jester

And that gents is the thing, you want to be able to use the inherent accuracy of your weapon to its fullest. I dare say that for most, the potential for accuracy of the weapon is greater than the ability of the shooter. And for the 7.62 Nato cartridge, to limit to just 300m for a man sized target is under utilizing it.

Certainly and I am not trying to dispute what you said, just illustrating the philosphy behind our emplyment of the weapon. As I mentioned above, targets beyond 400m were the province of the machinegun, the decision to employ the 7.62mm rifle out to 400m was not about the limits of the rifle and its round but about the limits of the shooter.

Originally Posted by jester

As for the L1 vs M14, which weapon is easier to adjust windage if you had to?

Without a doubt the M14 is easier, the windage knob is far easier to access and doesn't require any tools as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by jester

As for adjusting the point of aim, that is called Kentucky Windage, which is far from accurate, and as state, not bad for 300m and less, you can even hit a man sized target at that range much of the time.

Again, my comment about the role of the rifleman and the role of the machinegunner apply here

Originally Posted by jester

But, also, consider this, the ability to engage an enemy before they get close enough to engage, that will force them to to do a coolness check, since most would be very very upset at having to suffer accurate fire beyond your ability to return fire, so they just have to suffer and advance and take the casualties. When it comes to such, well, I'd like to be on the side handing out the damage at a range beyond the ability of my enemy.

You're preaching to the choir, I totally agree with you here and I'm sure a few other fans of the 7.62x51mm do as well. It's just a pity that the politicians and the army high command don't see it that way.

Originally Posted by jester

Next time I go to where my rifle is stored <Illegal to have in this state> I will check it out and see about those screws and make some adjustments.

If you can find it, download the British Army L1A1 users manual, it should go into some detail about adjusting the sights
Did I mention that I'm supremely jealous that you own that rifle? I'd love to own an L1A1 or a C1A1 but it's never going to happen in Australia - the world's centre of fear and paranoid fantasy when it comes to guns.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Did I mention that I'm supremely jealous that you own that rifle? I'd love to own an L1A1 or a C1A1 but it's never going to happen in Australia - the world's centre of fear and paranoid fantasy when it comes to guns.

Me too. I know how to strip, clean and shoot the SLR. So sad that we Aussies can't (legally) own such things.

[Legbreaker]

SLR, M60, M16, F88 all blindfolded at breakneck speed, over a decade and a half later.
I suppose that's why they make you practise, and practise, and practise....

[jester]

Yes, somethings gents become reflext we did them so many times in our youths. Ah the memories. And honestly, I could dial in a mortar faster and better still drunk from the evening <late morning> before than I could stone sober. Instinct and reflecx.


Ansd as for the doctrine.

You gents have the machinegun as the base of your element like most of Europe don't you? Where the riflemen support the machinegun. Whereas, for us in the US, it is oposite, the machinegun supports the riflemen. A different doctrine. And those who are playing American characters you had better adopt that mind set to play your characters right

Also, per rifle doctrine, the Marines are the only US service who still train for long range shooting, everyone else it only goes out to 300m whereas the MC still shoots out to 500m, another organizational difference in doctrine which does shape how we see things.

Just things to consider.


As for the C1, yeah, well the last time I saw it was in 01, however, I may be moving the "bad guns" to a location out of state a bit closer, hey, they allow anything in Arizona, so I may send them there.