M4A1 Carbine vs M16A2 Assault Rifle game mechanics

[B.T.]

@ Mahatatain:

Just out of curiosity: How will you handle it?
I am still not quite shure, how (or better: if) I should penalize PCs using an M4. On the other hand: In my t2k universe access to ACOGs, red dots and the like is not as easy as in the real nowaday world.

[Milano]

I also have wondered this and a few years ago started to fix things like this...
There are differences in my home grown rules and the standard rules. 1.. I have variable rates of fire. 2.. I use real BCs to explaine damages and ranges. 3.. Range is dependent upon the BC. 4.. Damage is doubled. 5.. Damage is based on real Joules of energy.
I got hung up when I compared the AKM to the M4.. Damage goes to heck. So because of that and penetration I never finished this little project. But se le vie.. Here is what I have gotten for some examples.

6.5x47 w/142 @2950 BA 8.05 6.65 4.99 2.12 8 4 120.3 277.77 641.38 1480.94

m24 w/ m118lr @2600 BA 7.42 6.28 4.9 2.51 7 4 94.8 213.77 482.06 1087.05
m24 w/m80 @2790 BA 7.35 6.1 4.71 2.28 7 4 94 201.44 431.69 925.11

m24a1 w/180 @ 3250 BA 10.09 8.59 6.93 3.92 7 5 93.2 207.37 461.4 1026.61

TRG-41 w/250 @ 2998 BA 10.97 9.51 7.46 3.55 8 5 112.2 272.09 659.81 1600.03

M16a2 w/M193@ 3180 3 5.46 4.78 3.99 2.63 7 3 4 54.3 108.87 218.29 437.67
m16a2 w/mk262@ 2800 3 5.68 5.76 4.98 3.59 7 3 4 56.6 120.11 254.86 540.82

M4a1 w/M193@ 2900 6 4.98 4.65 4.18 3.31 6 3 9 33 66.17 132.66 265.99
M4a1 w/mk262@ 2700 6 5.48 5.1 4.61 3.7 6 3 9 36.4 77.24 163.91 347.81

Colt m933 w/M193@ 2800 6 4.8 4.48 4.17 3.58 5 3 9 22.9 45.91 92.06 184.58
Colt m933 w/mk262@ 2600 6 5.28 5.03 4.78 4.08 5 3 9 25.1 53.26 113.02 239.83

AKM w/ M43 @2329 6 4.18 3.74 3.33 2.47 6 3 8 38.6 77.82 156.88 316.27

M2HB w/m33 @3029 5 17.86 10.45 4.12 <0.5 11 1 3 184.8 482.79 1009.03 2108.88
M2HB w/m903SLAP @4000 5 17.56 11.18 6.78 3.97 11 1 2 181.7 637.29 1788.36 5018.49


Ok I cannot instert a table but the format is the same.. name/ROF/DAM (s/m/l/ex)/Blk/recoil/Range (s/m/l/ex)
I also attached the Excel file to create this.
I never thought this would EVER come in helpful.

[James Langham]

In V1.0 I would make the M4 an SMG allowing better firing on the move (simulating ease of handling) but a reduced range. This should simulate it. Not sure how I would in 2.0 (which I normally use). It hasn't come up as I never issued the M4 in my background.

[Tegyrius]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to make the M4 an SMG, James. That seems more appropriate to a Colt Commando or equivalent AR variant with a 10"-11" barrel - the NATO equivalent of the AKS-74U ("AKSU").

- C.

[HorseSoldier]

Probably the easiest way to give a "feel" of the M4 versus M16 would be to give the M4 some sort of modest bonus on initiative (however that works under the specific version of T2K rules involved) and give the M16 a modest improvement in range over the M4.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to make the M4 an SMG, James. That seems more appropriate to a Colt Commando or equivalent AR variant with a 10"-11" barrel - the NATO equivalent of the AKS-74U ("AKSU").

For the issue XM177 Colt Commandos, it's pretty much a wash -- that weapon has a shorter barrel than the M4, but the moderator/suppressor on it makes the barrel lengths basically the same in terms of handling. The more modern shorty uppers are a different story, of course.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

Probably the easiest way to give a "feel" of the M4 versus M16 would be to give the M4 some sort of modest bonus on initiative...

This is where the "bulk" stat in 2.x comes in. The same thing could be used in 1.0 where there's a question over who's quicker off the mark.

[Mahatatain]

Originally Posted by B.T.

@ Mahatatain:

Just out of curiosity: How will you handle it?

Sorry for taking a while to reply.

I just simply handled this by tweaking the Range stat for the M4 in my game - I increased it to 50m and while this is lower than the M16A2 (55m) the difference is small enough to remove this issue.

My reasoning for this was the effective range figures on Wikipedia.
- M16 - 550 meters (point target)
- M4 - 500 meters (point target)

I don't know enough about the respective rifles to know whether that logic is flawed but it worked for me in the game.

The point about bulk stats affecting initiative and that being a bonus for M4 over the M16 is also a good one but I won't unfortunately get to implement that in my campaign. The new FTF T2k campaign that I was starting has collapsed as my players found the Post Apoc T2k setting to dark and not escapist enough for them - they much prefer the rather simplistic high fantasy type games that another member of the group runs. As a result we've had to shift back to some bland D&D clone world where each encounter seems to focus around defeating the latest weird monster of the week, which is extremely frustrating for me as a roleplayer as I feel like I'm now back playing games similar to those I played as a teenager in the 1980's and I find that a rather dull roleplaying experience....