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Old 03-15-2010, 02:23 AM
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Default Military Region V: Part One

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DeaconR

Military Region V

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Note: this is my version of it for my game. I'm still working on it but I'd appreciate feedback.

Military Region V

By 2014 this region, consisting of Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Wyoming, South Dakota and Minnesota has become a military region in name only. Many of the commands are a lot smaller than intended, and are hundreds of kilometers apart. With fuel so precious a commodity and communication systems still badly damaged, maintaining contact is extremely difficult. Only a strong sense of need not to give up, loyalty to the President and the strength of the remaining loyal commands has kept it going at all. One fortunate aspect is that food is not as scarce as in other regions. While certainly the luxuries of the past are an all but forgotten dream, no one starves in the organized areas or cantonments.

Marauders are a problem. In western Nebraska, scattered throughout Kansas, Missouri, and in parts of Wyoming and South Dakota the marauders have till recently been very active on the roads. Most of them have settled down, either to become petty warlords or simply squatting with their gains in some ruinous hellhole till they run out of goods and must take to the road again. It was a hard winter and no one really wanted to move around much. Nevertheless outside of the patrolled and defended areas small communities are as wary and fortified as communities in the Middle Ages, inclined to shoot at any strangers who do not identify themselves, and inclined to run those off unless they are persuasive.

Government has largely been reduced to the local level. Mainly, loyal Civgov enclaves are centered around Pierre, South Dakota; Duluth, La Crosse, International Falls and Minneapolis in Minnesota; Ottumwa and Decorah in Iowa; Moberly and Hannibal in Missouri; Omaha, Lincoln, Cedar Rapids, Ogallala, Broken Bow and Scottsbluff in Nebraska. There are also enclaves that have no loyalty to Civgov. These include the School Brigade operating in Southern and Western Kansas; the native American independence groups in western South Dakota; a largely white and non-native population in Rapid City (both groups of communities despise Civgov for the attempt to nationalize resources in South Dakota the year before); a warlord who has rather successfully set up operations in Topeka and the area surrounding it. Outside of these main safe enclaves are small family groups or fortified farms, refugees hunkered down in ruins and in squalid encampments, marauder groups and crazies.

Milgov is regarded with some resentment by some locals, who believe that if only the Chiefs of Staff would get over their stubborn pigheadedness the country could get back together again. In particular rumors that Milgov has no intention of ever holding elections has made people wary of the idea of living under military dictatorship. It is a bit different for those who travel a lot or are serving in uniform; it has come to seem a rather pointless conflict and some are relieved that fuel is scarce enough to make contact very irregular. Nevertheless there are some on both sides who for whatever reason are very eager to pursue conflict. While there have been irregularities abroad such as in the newly refurbished Military Region One which blend Civgov and Milgov forces, this has mostly taken place in areas where people are in irregular contact. In the heartland of Civgov it is a given that Milgov refuses to recognize the rightfully elected President of the United States. That being said, there are also negotiations going on to at least have both governments work together. The only real result of this is that units making contact are advised to ask questions first and shoot later.



The Nukes

Hot Springs, South Dakota: this was a miss aimed at Ellsworth Air Force Base, resulting in death for many from fallout and resultant disease and famine.

Offut Air Force Base, Nebraska: this direct hit caused death and destruction in this area. The roads became choked with sick and dying refugees. Fallout levels came down to acceptable ranges and the city of Omaha was resettled first by refugees and then by the Civilian Government.

Salina, Kansas: the missile array near this town was destroyed by a nuke launched by the Soviets, resulting in Salina becoming a ghost town. A few sick and dying people remain.

St. Louis, Missouri: destroyed by nuke.

Kansas City, Missouri: destroyed by nuke.

The other results of the nuclear attacks in this region are: people and animals with cancerous diseases; areas where plants and insects have mutated; infertility; huge dust storms, sometimes carrying dangerous radiation in the more open areas.

Federal Operations in Military Region V

President Broward appointed his own Chiefs of Staff and his own Secretary of Defense. These are with him in Omaha. Ironically there are probably enough staff personnel to outnumber the MPs and the Presidential Protection Detail put together. Most current operations involve protection of salvage operations, maintaining lines of supply and communication, and guarding important assets, not the least of which is the person of the President.

The CIA’s role in the Milgov/Civgov split is well known. However, it is a much reduced intelligence agency. It is forced in many ways to rely upon means used in earlier times, which has required them to hire and recruit new kinds of analysts and field operatives. Right now they are occupying a community college building in Omaha.

The FBI is an anomalous organization; they play both sides of the fence to some extent. The FBI had personnel in all major cities and a number of smaller ones, and has managed to maintain some contact with those who have survived. Most of their operations involve dealing with the black market, New American and other separatist and terrorist plots, and occasionally assisting local police. A number of agents in the field have simply become part of local police where such still exists, having been unable to contact their organization. The director has headquarters in a former insurance building in Omaha.

The Congress of the United States is much reduced. Only perhaps a quarter of the Senate and House are active, and more may slip away as they realize that their debates and intrigues mean little. The only problem of course is…where to go? Some of these men and women had plans in case of disaster, but others came hoping that they would become the new leaders of the newly revived nation only to find that it is on the edge of collapse. Some of them are effective go betweens between the Presidency and their State, but some are mere ciphers. The Senators from such places as West Virginia, Connecticut, Delaware and Rhode Island are cases in point. For various reasons they represent nothing and no one. Some of the representatives on careful interrogation might be revealed to know little about the States they claim to be from that could not be gleaned from the last published Almanac…if that. Senator Horner of Utah on the other hand is a powerful person representing a powerful state. He is part of a semi-official committee to reunite the USA.

There are currently three Chief Justices who actually survived, and are part of the moral dilemma facing those who would deny Broward his position. Certainly Campbell Ramsey, the senior Chief Justice, administered the oath of office and was appointed by President Tanner’s predecessor. Whether this was considered opinion, desperation or what no one knows, but the redoubtable judiciary is certainly part of Horner’s “Committee”.


Military Region V OOB

HQ: Omaha, Nebraska (commanded by a Lieutenant-General, who is in turn subordinate to the Commander of DefCom. The various area support commands, bases whoses staffs had survived but had been forced to evacuate areas were used to fill ranks and also to build a staff following the disaster)

HQ Units
530th Military Police Battalion (400)
809th Quartermaster Battalion
89th Ordnance Battalion
89th Transportation Battalion
424th Maintenance Co
331st Medical Group
806th Chemical Detachment

(note: most of these are at ¼ strength only since most of them have provided extra personnel for required skills to other units in the area.)

644th Area Support Group
(consists of the 367th Combat (light) Engineer Battalion, 212th Quartermaster Company, 302nd Maintenance Battalion, 322nd Maintenance Company, 417th Maintenance Company, 451st Army Band, and the 704th NBC Recon Company. While none of these units would be considered traditional ‘line’ units nevertheless given modern conditions of war all were given training in combat operations and thus found themselves having to administer what degree they could of law and order in Minnesota when the heavens fell, as it were.)
Subordination: Military Region V

Manpower: 1200
AFVs: None.

134th Infantry Regiment (what remains of the 67th Infantry Brigade)
Subordination: Military Region V
Nebraska
Manpower: 600
AFVs: same as above.

35th Combat Engineer Brigade
Subordination: Military Region V
Missouri
Manpower: 1200
AFVs: 6 M728 CEVs, 4 M5 ARVs,

B Battery, 3/49th Artillery Regiment
Subordination: Military Region V

Manpower: 100
AFVs: 2 155mm SPH

Presidential Protection Detail
(consisting of elements of the 3rd Regiment, the Old Guard; USMC Presidential Guard Company, and the Secret Service protection unit)
Subordination: The Office of the President

Manpower: 300


DeaconR





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Law0369

the presidentail security company? there is no such unit marines would side with milgov.
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Law0369





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Law0369

sorry guard company. also old guard would have never made it out of d.c. rush hour is bad enough let alone nukes going off.
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Law0369





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DeaconR

Law: (since I take it that is your only comment) how do you KNOW that? I mean, the Joint Chiefs got to Colorado, obviously enough ranking CIA personnel did, so why not elements of the 3rd Infantry Regiment? Since there are only 300 people in that detail there might perhaps be a hundred of them, tops.

Also I have yet to really hear why the Marines would all universally assign themselves to Milgov. Are you saying it is not possible that a commander could decide for whatever reason to serve Civgov?


DeaconR





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Law0369

Deacon Have You Been To D.c. ? I Work In The Area And Know A Little About It. The 3rd Infantry Is A Dog And Pony Show Unit. I Would Take Them Days If Not Months To Move Anywhere. They Are Not Set Up That Way. Also Yes I Know About Marines And How They Think( Iam One) And Yes If The Jcs Head Was A Marine And He Gave Them An Order They Would Do It.( I Was Told In Past Post He Was One ). D.c Has Only A Few Ways In Or Out . To Get Into Or Out Of Town In Rush Hour Take Up To 3 Hour To Do This. Its 4 To 5 Lanes In Each Direction And It Is Clogged Up To The Max. Parking Lot Here. So If Nukes Were Falling All Hell Would Break Lose.
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Law0369





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Law0369

iAM A MARINE I KNOW WHAT UNITS ARE THERE AND NOT THERE . ITS MY JOB


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Law0369





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FightingFlamingo

The Old Guard keeps one battalion operationally deployed... when in DC they are absolutely a dog and pony show, but they do deploy OCONUS operationally... IRL they have a bn as part of JTHA now...

Every City between DC and Boston sucks 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm... monday through friday sans holiday's... and they still suck then too...
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FightingFlamingo





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Law0369

Flamingo Goto There Web Page They Have Only One Bn 1st Of Third! They Send Companys Out And The Last 2 Have Gone To Horn Of Africa To Do Secuirty. This Is A New Mission And Per Cannon They Would Still Just Be Marchers In D.c...

Great Guys Dont Get Me Wrong I Just Look At Missions And Logistics.

Its Like Marine Barracks D.c. Great Guys But They Just Have A Ceremonial Mission.
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Law0369





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FightingFlamingo

My error Law... replace bn with co...

I know they predominantly have a ceremonial function... and yes that would likely have been maintained in Canon...
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FightingFlamingo





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Antenna

@Law

The work of getting the T2k world covered more then what the books say don't need the comment you give. According to those who has served in war (ie those I know and have known) The first battle tells who gonna be an asset in war and those who wont and all between. Even if nukes fell over DC the Old guard was intended later days in RL to do missions. In to the T2k books there is units that haven't been covered, even nations have been left out in the books. So why won't you take a break from your way of looking on things and give constructive critisism instead of saying noway all the time. You might be a Marine and proud of it, but there are at least Gazzilion things that you wouldn't know a squat about. So those of us that know something about these things and have ideas about incorporate it into our campaigns wouldn't need to know what you like or what. Even a ceremonial unit like 3rd US Infantry Regiment knows how to field strip a weapon and that is somethign to remember that they probably been at the ranges and shoot the rifle to. Also giving the "Mad Max" feeling some o us have about anyone that can handle a weapon would in a post-apocalypse world be either a solider, militia or marouder for any side. So even if the 3rd US Infantry Regiment in RL was "great guys" that only did ceremonial issues. Those issues would change pretty quickly in case of a war.

Antenna
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Antenna

@DeaconR

Even I have been tooling with the 3rd US Infantry Regiment. According to the web they use carriges from 105mm M101 or M102 howitzers with a 76.2mm Gun linered down to 75mm to fire cermoinail shoots. In my world the 3rd US Infantry Regiment would be as follows according to me.

Manpower: 180
Howizters : 2 M101

Now I write top of my head what notes I remebered and the topic of 3rd US Inf Reg has probably been deleted from this forum.

Antenna
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Today ain't your day...
Tomorrow seems to be a bad day also...


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shrike6

I've been tooling with the 3rd as well. In my version the original 3rd minus a company (which was deployed to Kenya) was wiped out during the nuking of Washington. It was reformed by Civgov to provide security for Civgov's capital.
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shrike6





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Law0369

well Sir that is why i keep my comments to things i know about. and i dont put anyone down.


let me explain why about the 3rd infantry and hope this will clear somethings up.

The 3rd infantry is the oldest or one of the oldes units in the army.
there job is to provide secuirty at the tomb of the unkown solider in arlington cemitary. (ceremonial duty)

they have a color guard platoon and certian horse units all platoon strenght.

they also have 3 line companys that provide marching ceremonys at ft. meyer in down town D.C. . the companys are made up of 11 bravo's infantry. so these men have been to boot camp and infantry school. but after that they spend up to 10 hours a day prepairing, doing , or cleaning up after events. these men are not like the household units of the uk that must be able to deploy to war at a moments notice ( ie falklands war). it would take around 6 months of training to get them ready and a influx of new gear. (this is what they do today they goto FT A.P Hill and train there) . so now that we have talked about training lets talk about logistics.

Logistics the 3rd Infantry dose not have a large supply of ammo ,weapons,food or vehicles at there site at FT.Meyer. so they would be just a light infantry unit unable to move fast or sustain themselfs for long. they dont have a large motor pool with tactical vehicles.

Getting out of town. there is only one road out of town and that is the inner capital loop. this road is clogged at the times flamingo stated. over 3 million people goto work there every day and they dont car pool. so now you have an infantry unit stuck in the capitol when a nuke goes off. to me this would mean they would be vapor. now if we wanted to say how they could get out by air? well there is no air base with tactical lift in the area. By rail they would have to fight the 1 million people trying to get out by rail that goto work by this means. by ground as we have already talked about that above.

so sir, no disrespect here to anyone just trying to give good honest advice to people to give them the most realistic profile for the campains. i dont try to always say no and if that is the way i come off iam sorry. Iam a marine and thought that my real world knowledge would help on this forum. i work in the us capitol area and have been to the ft. meyer area and have watched them work. i also trained these men in africa in basic tasks in the spring 2004 when i was deployed there. so i have first hand working knowledge of these mean and there abilities.

Now to anwser the questions about marines. They are taught from boot camp to follow orders from above. if they are told by there officer's to do something they would. the 6 divisions in cannon are overseas and 75% of all deployed units are under milgov control so that is one reason i came to this that they would go milgov. bases and stations in the us would have been bleed dry to replace troops so there would not have been alot of them left here in the usa.

-camp lejeune/mcas new river/ mcas cherry point all are within 25 minutes of each other on the carolina coast . they might band togeter at lejeune and try to hold out. were they side would side would depend on the co of the base and who he knows. if he knows or has worked for the jcs member he would side with him. marine office ranks are small and they all know each other.

Marine corps base quantico was hit by a nuke so bye -bye to them.

marine corps logistic base albany georgia they would band with ft benning due to location. it would be up to who the senior man would be to determine what side they goto.

mcas yuma would either be over run by division cuba/mexican troops or they would link up with the group in arizona that prvious post talked about.

mcas miramar is now in mexican territory

camp pendelton is now in mexican territory

any troops left from southern california would go with 6th army in the sf bay area and for provisinal units.

this is where i come up with that no units would go with civgov . now here is the wild card one or two man recruiting teams would be left all over the usa but the dont have weapons or gear so some might go civgov but they would be one's or two's with no gear or weapons.

I hope sir that this has cleared some things up and and show that i just dont say no but have a reason. like i said in the past i dont mean to offend i just want to put out the best info i can to help you men play a game i love and respect.

LAW0369
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Law0369





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Antenna

To tell you one thing Law0369 nukeing DC would be the most stupid thing the T2k USSR would do. I have discoussed the T2k timeline with a lot of people with different knowledge areas. "If" USSR canon wise would nuke DC it would be becouse they stand outside DC and that is what is left from USA (If that would happen I think the story that USSR would be able to conqueer whole USA snas DC would be plain silly) or that USA stand outside kremlin and USSR got a SS-[insert apropriate number] ICBM in the red square. If DC would be nuked, there would be a chanse that the president of USA would fail to escape that nuke. So who would be the legimit US player at the peacetalks in a WWIII scenario. The understanding of politics was thought to me in the T2k timeline scenario by a realtive to me that was the strong man in a county with at least 75.000 people living there. Even if USSR would like to have the president made to radioactive dust, there is people that take over the rule by handing the keys to the nation or what ever you would refeer as a symbol of power. The problem comes the day when peacetalks going to start. Sorry we don't have a legimit President in our nation to lead those talks, sorry there aitn gonna be any good talks today. On the other hand if you want to overtake a small countiry you want to pulverize the leaders of that country. Like Pragha-68 or whatever example you want. The solution with nukeing DC as USSR would give more problems later on. Therefore my own story about nukeing DC is not canon wise.

Antenna
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Law0369

Sir Iam going by what is front of me now ..version 2.2. on page 235 it shows a list of sites nuked.

*washington dc recieves .25 mt ground burst at white house
*andrews afb gets a .5 mt ground burst

these attacks per cannon would beat down the dc. metro area. iam not going by what opinion here just what the book says thats why i had the above stated reasons for 3rd inf regiment.

I dont always agree with canno they do have units mission and IMHO alot of units that would be made on both sides missing but the nuke list is here and it is what cannon states.
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Law0369





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Antenna

I know that you follow the BYB 2.2. But I don't follow it completely my views of what would be there also differs from every campaign of T2k that I run even, depending on what the goal of the campaign would be even. What I refeer to is my last campaign that going to end this month. Why do you think I change the setup for the campaigns I run, becouse my players do own the books also in one or another way... Of course I have followed the BYB2.2 by the letters from time to time. On the other hnad I haven't seen a map over DC in years and cannot refeer to the yield of nukes going groundbursts and the strategy used by 3rd Inf Rgt in a T2k world. But if I would be a leader of a unit which I know can be nuked I would disperse my unit in that way that at least some of my men would survive to take a lead in post-nuke enviroment. Even if there is a belife in the T2k canon story that nukes can fall it also comes like a surprise for the world when the nukes fall at thanksgiving (this is what I can read between lines in the canon story).

There is no wrong to follow the BYB 2.2 story line but there is no wrong to change parts or even whole setup for the game. At least there is GMs that will change stuff written in the T2k books to suit their own purpose for getting next phase of the game or a future phase also for just your game to be possible and plausible.

If I would have followed what the books told me my own Homepage about sweden in a t2k world would be bound to tell what the Finnish books tell, instead of takeing the knowledge about sweden and ponate it on the T2k world scenario.

Antenna
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DeaconR

Law, if you don't like it or agree with it, that's fair enough. I respect that you're a Marine and all that, and actually I did ask for feedback. In fact I would like to thank you for going into more detail.

Some points I wanted to make.

1. How do we know who might have been where before the bombs hit? I simply thought that MAYBE there might have been elements of the 3rd Regiment out of town on Thanksgiving Day Massacre. If that's impossible, like they NEVER leave the capital for ANY reason, fair enough. (Though Flamingo seems to be saying that they would)

An example: let's suppose someone is a Drill Instructor at Parris Island. Let's say for the sake of argument that Parris Island was nuked. If I want to have someone like that be a survivor all I need to do is say that he was on compassionate leave or whatever. There are any number of reasons why he might not be there. So I felt that there was reason to believe that this unit would be available.

2. While a lot of your thoughts are very logical, and while I do realize you are offering your advice and such, you did come across as stating that what I was proposing was utterly impossible. As in "you can't survive having your head explode" impossible. Unlikely I would accept, and I would then ask questions about how to go about making it happen. So please don't take it personally when I argue with you. I found your subsequent responses a lot more helpful though in figuring things out.

3. Frankly, I find the Civgov idea interesting. When I first got into playing TW2000 I went for the Milgov thing which is a lot more popular. But I'm interested now in what makes Civgov tick, who's involved with it, etc.

The election of Broward is a controversy, not a shut deal. So I felt that there must be people who respect him, are loyal to him, or who simply have aligned with him for whatever reasons. Who is to say for instance that the small unit of Marines I'm talking about are not say veterans or reservists? Who is to say what weapons they have or where they came from?


4. Why do I want them there? Because frankly I find these units very interesting. I am not an American but I love American history, military history as well. I thought that it made sense for Broward to have some kind of honor guard. If I were to clarify and state that they were lightly armed and mostly serving a ceremonial and personal bodyguard function would that make more sense?

5. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs as far as I know according to game canon is not a Marine. People are getting mixed up I suspect with the Commander in Chief of CENTCOM, who is a Marine according to the game.



Having presented these ideas I'd like to know what you (and others) think.

@ Antenna

Thank you for sharing your ideas with me, I appreciate it. I've also been wondering about who makes up this government, who is qualified to do what, what are they trying to do, that kind of thing. It seems to me that whatever continuity they could create between governments past and the present that they would go out of their way to do it.


DeaconR





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Antenna

Got to think about it really. Pipes and drums the perfect riotdeterent.

"Prezident Broward the people is rioting in a nearby town".
"I know I send my SpecOps 'Pipes and drums' to win heart and minds, the townspeople want a TV network to send again"

Antenna
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Today ain't your day...
Tomorrow seems to be a bad day also...


Antenna


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Law0369

deacon i will come up with some more ideas for you if you want right now working on my masters degree ( online weekend classes ) so on monday i will write some stuff up and get back to you.


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Law0369





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thefusilier

Well done DeaconR. Where did the 85th Light Infantry Division go?

I also can go with some marines backing the Prez. As far as I know they are not all programmed automatons, but actually have individual thought. In the face of a nuclear apocalypse, everything changes, who knows what people are going to do.

And while this is in no way an attack on the marines... they do have the highest desertion rate out of army, navy and airforce. This shows that universal thought and loyalty is not possible as they are in the end human.

Also I noticed the year was 2014, are you on your own timeline or is this from the canon timeline?
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thefusilier





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DeaconR

Thanks fusilier. The 84th Infantry Division is the one you're thinking of from canon; the 85th is in Louisiana according to the vehicle guide. However I had to think about how I wanted things to go and I decided that since this unit was recruited in Wisconsin that it would go there. In my game Wisconsin is part of Military Region IV which consists of Wisconsin, Michgan, Illinois, Indiana and Ohio. My timeline begins in 2010 btw.

@Law: thank you, I appreciate it, and good luck with your degree.

@Antenna: I chuckled over that one but in fact I think it would be good for morale and a sense of continuity to have stuff like that. Whatever one thinks of President Reagan, one thing he did very effectively was to present the fact that he was the President and to restore some of the dignity of the office. Sometimes appearances are a big deal.


DeaconR
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Old 03-15-2010, 02:23 AM
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thefusilier

Ah yes, I meant 84th. Did they move to Wisconsin in Howling Wilderness as well?
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thefusilier





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Rainbow Six

As a compromise, how about the possibility that most of the Old Guard were killed in the attacks on Washington, and the Unit in Nebraska is made up of a small core of survivors of the original Old Guard augmented by reinforcements from other units? It could be a prestige posting to be assigned to the Presidential Guard.


Rainbow Six





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Law0369

the fusiler i dont know where you got the desrtion rates i get my facts from the stars and stipes an indeipendet paper that servers the military and they state that in the last 25 years the army has the higest rate followed by the navy then marines then air force. they post this article every year in there year in review.
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Law0369





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thefusilier

I got it here...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justi...rtionrates.htm

But lets assume it is less than the army as that isn't really the point. There still isn't a zero desertion rate for the marines right? So one can say not all marines are for the corps or whatever other loyalty. In any organization no matter how good or bad, there are going to be people of lesser commitment.
Look at vietnam for example, there were lots of problems there.

So why can't a number of marines decide to back up the president based on this.
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thefusilier





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chico20854

here's an idea on the USMC and loyalty to Civgov...

What if Broward is a former Marine. (Or, "on extended detatched duty"). Many years before, maybe Vietnam era, maybe saw combat in Vietnam or the 1975 Cambodia operation, did a short (2-4 year) tour and got out.

Some of his friends from the Corps stayed in and rose to high rank and position while Broward went to college and entered a long career in politics. After the TDM, he feels fully justified in assuming the presidency and qualified to lead a nation at war... he understands the military based on his previous service (much better than most politicians that are his peers) and is truly dissapointed, hurt and angry that the JCS choose not to accept his lead. Some of his friends from the Corps, who know the quality of man that he is, and having a different opinion of the JCS, decide to take the benefit of the doubt and follow Broward. They would legitimize it on the basis that the JCS is not following its chain of command by obeying Broward's orders and that any commands come from JCS are illegal. Broward is simply re-establishing a functioning chain of command.

As for the USMC unit in Nebraska, it could be formed around and led by Broward's friends and supporters in the Corps, possibly with what troops they had stateside under their command and augmented by detatched marines (like the recruiters Law mentioned), former marines or reservists who previously avoided call-ups, and by new recruits. In a game set in 2010 there have been several years of young people reaching an age when they are old enough to bear arms, and the prestige of the USMC and Presidential Guard would be a powerful draw to someone entering the service.


chico20854






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Law0369

well i guess we are spiltting hairs here i went of the # witch i was right and you were going off per 1000. witch makes you right.

now being in the military here in america i will impart some of my wisdom here.

most if not all the desertion comes from the time right after boot camp. after boot camp we as a military send are men on 10 days leave before they goto there mos school. what happens is they go home and get back with there old firends use drugs and get scared to go back and they dont. so in the end we dont miss much here with the numbers we put through boot camp we dont miss a beat. now as i said before marines are about there unit and there guys. and thats were there loyalties lie in the primary. so if a unit commander says in conus lets go over they might just follow him. now stating to my above post 90% of the marine corps would be away and about 98 % of there infantry. 2 big wild cards are the marine security companys at bangor washington state at the kitsap navy base and kings bay georgia . they guard navy stuff and they could go for civ gov depending on there commanders so that is the fix i talked about before. these are infantry marines and the only ones that would be left state side to do anything. . i told you all i had fixes and was not all negative so there you go . work away. they would have had v-150 commando's as vehicles for support at that time.
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Law0369





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DeaconR

I generally like both ideas. The idea of Broward having served in the Marines sounds good, as does the idea of a small group of the 3rd Infantry Regiment having survived and a unit being formed around them. One reason especially why I like the idea of Broward being a Marine veteran is that it gives a good reason for him having a group that are personally loyal to him.

I was hoping to do this and make this a reason for why (along with the HQ elements)most of the 134th would be away from Omaha itself.

@fusilier: in Howling Wilderness they seem to be in Minnesota. I didn't like that for story reasons, and also I thought that it made more sense for some of these units to stay in their home states.


DeaconR





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thefusilier

Yeah, with the pres an ex-marine I does seem to add weight to allow a few handful of marines to end up on his side. Just out of curiosity has their ever been a pres who has served in the marines?

I also like the idea of a small number of 3rd Inf. with him as well. The force in V Mil Region might have only started with a single platoon of originals but this unit was given augmentees. This can be a simple answer to how the unit wasn't destroyed when in fact it was for the most part.

@DeaconR
Yeah it does make more sense to relocate units back to home areas as much as possible.
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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thefusilier

Laws info on the desertion gave me kind of an idea or an example of where a couple of these Civgov marines might come from.

We have a new marine recruit. He has watched months of CNN of the huge casualties in Europe, Korea and Iran... nukes hit the US and his family is now facing grave challenges... He is new so he hasn't built the bonds with his fellow soldiers...

Does he remain with his unit and face potential overseas deployment to one of those areas he watched on the news for a few years... or does he desert and join with those other few marines backing the president. Those guys will be protecting him so there is not really any chance of leaving CONUS and he can still look out for his family.

Is this feasable? I just came up with it 2 minutes ago and haven't really given it much thought.
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The Fusilier





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Webstral

Law, I’ve worked with Marines and love those boys to death. Hard-core and very professional. I’m envious of the esprit de corps. In the Army, you have to join a subset like the Rangers or Special Forces to get the same result. Okay, maybe the 82nd Airborne has a similar spirit.

Anyway, I’m curious about the Marines’ oath of loyalty and its potential for believably creating at least one group of Marines who side with CivGov. I presume that the Marines swear to obey all lawful orders and to uphold the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. When the MilGov/CivGov split occurs, there is some room for interpretation about who has the most legitimate claim to governance. I happen to side with MilGov, but one could make a case that even the flawed electoral process of 1999 results in a president with legitimate authority over the military. In this case, MilGov is outside the confines of the Constitution. Therefore, the orders of the Joint Chiefs are not lawful.

Mind, I don’t personally take this interpretation. What I believe isn’t the point. Whether we can reasonably imagine other men of conscience believing that the election of Broward by the Congress of 1999 is legitimate and whether some of these men (and women) might be Marines is the point. Now what? Does a Marine obey orders he believes to be unlawful? I honestly don’t know the answer. But please answer carefully.

Here is my feeling on the matter: mindless obedience is not a virtue. The Marines are American servicemen, which means their fighting prowess exists to serve a moral purpose. If ordered to enter a village in western Iraq and kill everyone there (non-combatants included), would a Marine company obey? I don’t know the answer for sure, but in my heart I believe the Marines are loyal, disciplined, tough, and decent people who know the difference between right and wrong. We had a half-dozen former Marines in my National Guard unit, and I can say with confidence that these fine men would have refused to kill non-combatants no matter who issued the order. Perhaps being former Marines and not current Marines these men are not representative of the force.

If a Marine refuses any order under any conditions, he is transformed from a mindless, soulless machine to a human being. And I believe Marines are human beings. Once we go down that path, though, we raise the possibility that some Marines are going to decide that CivGov has the more legitimate claim to governance and that therefore the orders of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are not lawful orders. There probably aren’t many Marines like this. Discipline and loyalty to the chain of command are remarkably strong in the Marines. However, I don’t believe we can maintain that not one Marine or even not one unit would side with CivGov and believe at the same time that Marines are capable of thinking about right and wrong for themselves. Or maybe the split I really want is legal and illegal, since we’re talking about Constitutional law and its application in the MilGov/CivGov split. Marines are perfectly capable of executing ROE. Doing so means determining which actions fit within the stated framework. Expand that to the federal level, and we might very well see a few Marines concluding that the Joint Chiefs don’t have a legitimate claim to governance.

BTW, the Marines are doing some very interesting things in Iraq in urban combat. In Fallujah, the Marines were experimenting with the 60mm mortar as a very close fire support weapon. They were using mortars to fire missions that we would undertake with 40mm grenade launchers. A couple of the Marines I talked to who had been in Fallujah expressed the hope that a new doctrine for using mortars in this role would come out of the experience. Very creative of those boys.


Webstral


Webstral





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DeaconR

Hm. The only problem I have with that is I wonder how many people would be watching CNN after the Thanksgiving Day Massacre.

Some Personalities:

John Broward
Styled President of the United States, and acknowledged as such by perhaps 25-30 million people in the USA, the story of his election is recorded elsewhere.

What kind of man is he?

Broward was born in Hot Springs, Arkansas in 1948 to Henry and Maureen Broward. Henry was a country lawyer who was rather involved with the local Democratic Party. John grew up in a world that was occasionally rural but also sophisticated, hearing political and legal discussions and at the same time learning to hunt and fish at an early age. He had a knack for both being one of the boys and yet speaking in a remarkable mature and adult fashion.

He went to Trent University in 1966, and having been raised in a county where regardless of politics traditional values were common was both disturbed and fascinated by things like the Hippy movement. Nevertheless he joined the NROTC while his letters home reveal a certain ambivalence his actual decisions seem to have been made with a clear conscience.

Broward served in Vietnam as a Marine helicopter pilot and was in action several times, earning a Navy Cross for a very risky evacuation that saved the lives of a squad that was suffering a heavy rocket and mortar attack.

He served the remainder of his tour in the USA, and there he met his future bride, Adah Chilton. A dark haired very beautiful woman, she was the daughter of a minister and was reconsidering the path of her life after barely escaping prison during a protest. She had come to decide that while she felt that the Vietnam War was immoral that nevertheless morality must begin at home and had begun working with inner city poor. Broward was drawn to both her and her concerns.

Later this was a cause for both of them when he ran for the state legislature on his return to Arkansas, following their marriage. As a decorated Marine veteran he was a potential popular candidate, but in the 1970s the cause of inner city poverty and racial discrimmination was still a difficult one, and it was due to his charisma and the political shrewdness of an old college friend, Chuck Holmes, which enabled him to win his seat.

Broward at first was part of a small radical cabal in the state legislature, but gradually gained prowess and a strong voice. He took a hiatus from politics to become involved with a corporate research foundation. However he returned to politics in the late 80s to become elected to the House of Representatives.

During his stint in the House he served on the Housing & Welfare Committee, the Education Committee, the Energy Committee and the Armed Services Committee.

At the start of the war he happened to have been at home with his wife visiting his constituency. The events of the war shocked him. What shocked him even more though was that in spite of his efforts towards his state in leadership and organization that it fell to two forces opposing him: the New Americans and Governor Felix Morris, a pro-Milgov leader. It pains him every time he thinks about it; indeed the most telling scornful remark delivered to him by General Cummings was the unavoidable fact of that.

Broward has tried to be a vigorous President, a strong and focused leader of the nation. However it seems as though disaster upon disaster besets his presidency, and in his heart he at times wonders how long it can last.

Like many elected leaders before him he found himself forced to appoint certain people to high office that he later came to regret. He has gotten rid of most of them by now, and in any case some of the state interests they represented are either no more or no longer a concern.

Personality:
Broward's good points are his energy, willingness to commit to action, his charisma and his sense of humor. He genuinely is a patriot.
His bad points include a tendency to run himself into the ground, an occasional bad temper, and a tendency towards mendacity. For instance he will say something like "Oh, you're from Iowa? So am I!" and actually mean it at the time. This is not necessarily harmful but could be embarassing. Broward has also come to be a bit peevish about his home state, and references to it may cause him to become cold and remote.

Another flaw, not necessarily his, is his wife. Adah has always had a somewhat melancholy personality that she hides behind charitable activities and personal kindness. Lately she has fallen in with a New Age group called Unilove, which believes in raising positive energies that will ideally change the hearts and minds of people thought of. Unilove suggests that the union of humanity will come through love. It believes in reincarnation, positive thinking (which it calls macro thinking), meditation, veganism and occasional nudism. (while this is actually fairly chaste in intention some practitioners believe that Unilove also should lead to a 'sinless' state whereby sexual contact becomes innocent) The practioner list would surprise some people: there is a sense of desperation at the capital, and in fact it is in some ways a rather elitist faith. Adah had had a fondness for poetry and interpretive dance before and has been involved in designing some plays which are called 'readings' and are part of the form of worship done by the Unilove Fellowship. It is generally harmless but potentially degenerative and embarassing for the President.


DeaconR





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DeaconR

Webstral: thank you for your words, which stated the case better than I evidently could. I must emphasize that I totally agree and in fact I only have imagined perhaps a hundred Marines serving Broward. I just wanted to speculate about it and believe that it could be possible.

As you say there must be some people of integrity serving Broward. In my personality description I tried to leave the interpretation of his motives up to the reader. I believe that such a man would in one sense be self serving, and in another a patriot. I also think that Cummings must be somewhat the same. After all a man must be terribly ambitious to get all the way to being Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


DeaconR





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Targan ,058

Glad to see this debate about some USMC forces possibly siding with CivGov. I agree with DeaconR and Webstral (hopefully readers will recall my comments about the matter in a previous threaad). Deacon, I love your write-up on Broward. I'm going to use it in my campaign if that is okay with you. In my campaign I recently did a write up on the CivGov military spec ops community which is headed by Richard Marcinko of Red Cell fame, who has received a full Presidential pardon for his previous convictions. In my campaign most of Delta Force went over to CivGov as did part of DEVGRU (which has reverted to its old name of SEAL Team Six in CivGov service). The SEALs in CivGov service were drawn to the important ex-SEAL personalities in CivGov, being Marcinko, Senator Kerry (an ex-SEAL who in RL is as I recall a Nebraska Senator) and Jesse Ventura (also an ex-SEAL who is the Governor of Minesota, a State which is pro-CivGov in my campaign). Enough RL links there with the SEALs to make it a viable choice for a SEAL top side with CivGov. In my campaign the SEALs in Po's unit have been trying to re-form DEVGRU but so far have only been able to find one member of that unit. They also have a Delta member serving with them.

My point with all of this is that the SEALs often recruit from the USMC, and the USMC and the SEALs have a good relationship, so in my campaign at least there are solid reasons for some US Navy and USMC spec ops types to side with CivGov and therefore non spec ops personnel might be more so inclined as well.
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Targan





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DeaconR

Targan: please, use away. BTW, I find that you are using real people in your game really interesting. I'm using an NPC based on former Captain Dale Dye (who has acted as a military advisor to films and also in such films as Platoon and Band of Brothers) as the militia leader of a town my players have run into but that's about as far as I've gone. I think you have a good rationale for having a kind of special forces community in your game; in times of war such units are often built up specially for the conflict in question anyway.

Personalities (Part II)

Chuck Holmes (Chief of Staff to the President)

Holmes was born a year earlier than Broward in the same part of Arkansas. Holmes' family were business people and he grew up around talk of commerce. He knew Broward to say hello to but they were not really friends until after they both did their service. Holmes did his in the Navy and ended up on a Mekong Delta boat. He was wounded in action during his service though it was not crippling. Upon his return to the USA and private life he met Broward at a political meeting. They hit it off and Broward saw in Holmes an instinct for setting up meetings, organizing events and delegating to others since at the time he was one of a group of people helping put together a local party headquarters. When he ran for the state legislature Holmes was asked to help out, and they have worked closely together ever since.

Holmes is a born survivor, a cunning opportunist who respects the idea of his country but has one true loyalty outside of that he feels for himself: his friend, the President, John Broward. In a sense, to imagine him is to think of the character of Mr. Pelt from "Hunt for Red October" who is a self described "Cheat and a liar...and when I'm not kissin' babies, I'm stealin' their lollipops...but I do know a good thing when I see one."

He has preserved and gained power in Omaha largely through his control (to a large extent though a handful of others could contest this) of who sees the President. Most of those who could offer appointments report to him: the Deputy Chief of Staff, the President's private secretary, the President's personal aide, the Appointments Secretary. Holmes is ruthless about this: anyone who bucks the system pays for it, ideally by being sent far far away. His main aim in life is to maintain the dignity and power of the office of the President, and this does not include wasting the President's time. On the other hand, Holmes is no fool; if something is convincingly important to the preservation of what remains of the nation/presidency then he will act upon it with swift resolution.


DeaconR





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thefusilier

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconR
Hm. The only problem I have with that is I wonder how many people would be watching CNN after the Thanksgiving Day Massacre.



I meant it would have been lots of coverage of the huge casaulties before the strikes. But either way you get my point right. Who'd really want to be shipped off to Europe or whatever?

In the BYB history there was mention of drafting (mostly in the eastern states) that met alot of resistance. Surely these people didn't want to see any overseas action.

Anyways it was a minor point I wanted to see if it worked, at least for a small number of marines who joined Civgov.
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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Targan ,058

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconR
... BTW, I find that you are using real people in your game really interesting. I'm using an NPC based on former Captain Dale Dye (who has acted as a military advisor to films and also in such films as Platoon and Band of Brothers) as the militia leader of a town my players have run into but that's about as far as I've gone.

The way I look at it, all the personalities from the real world up until and often after the RL and game timelines diverge are still there in T2K. In NYC my players met Rudolf Guiliani (is that how you spell it? I'm not sure) who in T2K never became the Mayor of NYC, but was extremely depressed in the game because his prostate cancer was never treated. Captain Dale Dye is a dude, I and several of my players are big fans of his. Recall that great scene in Platoon -
"Red Leg, Red Leg, this is Bravo Two Six. We've got zips in the wire. Expend all remaining ordnance on my poz. It's been a lovely f**ckin' war gentlemen. Bravo Two Six out."
And then the strike aircraft drop "snake and nape, whisky to echo".
Magnificent.
We try to stick to correct radio communications procedures in-game. It adds an element of realism and professionalism to things. My little sister was listening the first time I started playing Battlefield II on my computer, and she was taking the piss out of me for using correct radio protocols when I was testing my microphone and in-game intersquad communications. The military use comms procedures for a reason. All I had said was "One this is Two. Radio check, over". My squad leader knew what I meant, and he responded "Two this is one. Receiving you five by five, over". Made sense to me anyway.
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Targan





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DeaconR

(I'm not sure he was talking to redleg, since that would be artillery--I was sure he had called for an airstrike, but I'll check, anyway a moot point)

The funny thing is that Dye was really nervous being in those scenes; he wanted to be in them but he had never acted, and Stone simply told him to be himself. I recommend getting the DVD with his commentary, which is very interesting.

BTW, here is a link to Joslyn Castle, which I've designated as the Presidential Mansion for my game purposes.

http://www.joslyncastle.com/Castle-History.html


DeaconR





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DeaconR

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefusilier
I meant it would have been lots of coverage of the huge casaulties before the strikes. But either way you get my point right. Who'd really want to be shipped off to Europe or whatever?

In the BYB history there was mention of drafting (mostly in the eastern states) that met alot of resistance. Surely these people didn't want to see any overseas action.

Anyways it was a minor point I wanted to see if it worked, at least for a small number of marines who joined Civgov.



I think I get what you mean...stuff like that can be odd, you sometimes can't tell how people will react until the war actually happens. However I'd do a different take on it. Not so much the worry about going to Europe as simply being out there in the chaos, not knowing who is in charge, where your next meal comes from, etc. Now here comes some group of officers and NCOs who start to tell you what to do, and where you're going to go. And it sounds actually pretty nice... that might account for some of them.


DeaconR





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Targan ,058

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconR
(I'm not sure he was talking to redleg, since that would be artillery--I was sure he had called for an airstrike, but I'll check, anyway a moot point).

You're right. I may be wrong there. Funny, because I watched it on TV just the other night, too. That part in Platoon where the VC sapper runs into the Battalion CP and blows himself up, the officer in the CP was Oliver Stone I think.
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Targan





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DeaconR

The Land

The States of the Military Region V were hit not merely by nukes but also by biological warfare. Terrorists and agents employed by the Soviet Union and its allies planted fungus on crops, distributed anthrax and BSE in order to damage the breadbasket of the United States and Canada as well.

A farmer in Kansas noticed the fungus on his winter wheat crop and notified the local agricultural board. There was an effort to keep panic down, and FEMA and the Department of Agriculture became directly involved. Thousands of head of livestock and acres of crops were ordered destroyed. Unfortunately in the wake of the sense of panic following the TDM this resulted in outrage and terror. Riots hit the cities of the Midwest, and the National Guard and Reserves found themselves overwhelmed.

That anthrax had been largely aimed at animal husbandry did not seem to register in the human animal in places like Des Moines, where there had already been fear and dread of radiation from Kansas City and Omaha. The city gradually became a ghost town. Despairing refugees sometimes just halted on the road, waiting for help, doomed.

Along the Mississippi the lack of infrastructure and the loss of skilled workers due to the panic resulted in major flooding along the banks. The water swelled, claiming the city of Davenport, again causing a mass and almost fatal exodus.

Eaters

Some of the survivors turned cannibal. People desperate, selfish and willing to abandon all pretension of civilized and decent behavior merely in order to survive are actually the worst of local marauders. These are mostly evolved from groups of survivors who went desperate to small communities who did. As a result they have a strange permanency that goes beyond that of the average marauder band. While some indulged and then, in shame when they did survive drifted apart, a few became savage, crazed with their new state of being, and are either waylaying travellers or else have taken to the road and are feeding themselves along the way with the unwary. Given the circumstances, diseases among them are rife--you don't want to be bitten by one of these people. They are likely to be large in numbers, but not that well armed comparatively--combining a marauder band on the encounter table along with two refugee group encounters sums up the proportion of arms among them.


Davenport, Iowa

This city was badly damaged by flooding. A good area of it is largely rubble and debris, very dangerous due to hidden basements and underground parking areas. The taller and more sturdy buildings remain, though many have flooded parts still. During warmer months insects are a plague, and the average scavenger or remaining city dweller is swathed like a bedouin as a result. During colder months mist and fog are common and the city almost seems haunted.

Due to the difficulty of getting to some of the buildings that are now surrounded by channels of water or thick marsh or flooded rubble there is actually a gold mine of salvage in Davenport. However, the environment is inherently dangerous.

Inhabitants:

There are a few small groups of salvagers who ended up living there. They are not serious salvagers as say the groups in NYC; these are more simply survivors who ended up holing up in a building complex, making it defensible, and who raid other buildings for goods. Since they are small in number, no group numbering more than thirty, and there being no more than four or five such groups, they are likely to be able to survive another few years simply scavenging off the corpse of the city. They are reasonably well armed with hunting rifles, shotguns and pistols. One group even found a case of grenades. They are not necessarily hostile but will be wary of scouts for marauder groups and will act violently if need be. The groups are almost like rat packs; they are sort of aware of other people in the area but avoid them, preferring to keep to themselves. The problem is that several times marauder groups have ventured into the city, and mostly found that it was difficult to do more than move around the edges without a serious effort at finding routes across the water or making rafts. If necessity draws them together it may be a different story.

Recently a large band of Eaters, roughly 60 combatants and 25 or so non combatants (there are 11 prisoners who have useful skills, including a doctor who has kept this group more or less healthy...comparatively...and also 9 women and 5 children. These last are actually dangerous themselves, but are most often left at an improvised and rather squalid camp while the others explore.) The group are led by a powerful man simply known as Red who is a vicious ex-con that escaped from prison along with a number of others. There are still a few of his fellow escapees, part of his prison gang. Red had pretensions of white supremacy but this is really more a form of sullen bigotry and suspicion rather than anything really serious like New American philosophy. They may stay a while if they find sources of food, but are also scouring the area for weapons, clothes, and other salvage. Recently they had to abandon their vehicles for lack of fuel but they are willing to trek back if they can find a large source of it or other vehicles. The Eaters have grown very good at ambush and should be considered veterans for that kind of purpose. What they prefer is to find an area with a lot of cover (rubble and undergrowth will do) and then spring upon victims, overwhelming them. Well armed parties, especially with armored vehicles, will give them pause and have them lurking around seeking vulnerability.


DeaconR





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thefusilier

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconR
The Land

The States of the Military Region V were hit not merely by nukes but also by biological warfare. Terrorists and agents employed by the Soviet Union and its allies planted fungus on crops, distributed anthrax and BSE in order to damage the breadbasket of the United States and Canada as well.



When I was young I read a WW3 comic and for some reason all nukes were gone. The Soviets fired Intercontinental missiles with biological agent warheads against this part of the states for the effect you spoke of.

Is it feasable for T2000 that they might use some older ICBM loaded with bio stuff like you mentioned as a form of dispersion? Or is that not realistic to you guys?

Very good stuff btw.
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The Fusilier


thefusilier





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Jason Weiser

Quite real sadly,
And a part of admitted Soviet strategy in case of a nuclear exchange. Read Ken Alibek's book, "Biohazard", damn scary stuff. Basically, the Soviets had their Biopreperat apparatus ready to fill MIRVs for older ICBMs in case of a wartime surge ordered by the politicians. Well, the Twilight War seems tailor made for such a sitrep. Matter of fact, makes one wonder if some were used in China in 1995? You could do such launches in plain sight...say you're launching a sat..but oops, something went wrong and oh, look, it came down in China..

Not the first time somebody opened the NBC playbook on the Chinese, ask Unit 731. But, back to the article at hand. I think dispersion by MIRV is a bit less risky than using KGB assets (which are going to be very busy in the pre-nuke phase simply dodging the FBI and military counter-intell assets, lots of SAC assets in the Dakotas). Plus, the Soviets might have the view that those assets may have some value in locating recovery-phase targets for follow on strikes (We all know that doesn't happen much in Twilight, but the Soviets might have been a bit optimistic there).
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Jason Weiser





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DeaconR

Thank you Jason for that info, I'll add that to the sourcebook as I gather new stuff. And thanks fusilier for bringing it up.


DeaconR





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Jason Weiser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Law0369

Getting out of town. there is only one road out of town and that is the inner capital loop. this road is clogged at the times flamingo stated. over 3 million people goto work there every day and they dont car pool. so now you have an infantry unit stuck in the capitol when a nuke goes off. to me this would mean they would be vapor. now if we wanted to say how they could get out by air? well there is no air base with tactical lift in the area. By rail they would have to fight the 1 million people trying to get out by rail that goto work by this means. by ground as we have already talked about that above.



Well, consider the strikes take place over the Turkey Day Holiday, and from what I remember about living in DC, downtown is pretty deserted. Now, the burbs...they're pretty crowded with folks trying to shop. Either way, the 3rd isn't getting out in time, not to mention, with the fact it was an SLBM close in-shore you have a 5 minute flight time...so nobody's going anywhere if they ain't got wings.
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Jason Weiser





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DeaconR

I don't believe I ever said that ever single member of the 3rd Infantry Regiment got out of dodge, as it were. What I speculated was that elements of it might be available. I would generally agree that it would be hard to get out of Washington, but there is nothing to say that elements were not on a military exercise, a parade or who knows what.
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