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  #61  
Old 04-23-2014, 06:53 PM
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We have Autogyros, but only in TM1-1, no module uses them. so assign a half dozen or so to the regional bases for local air reconnaissance.

We have OH-6/CH-47 helos and C-130s only at Prime Base....an argument could be made that Prime Two would have the same air group so we are looking at 12 OH-6s, 4 CH-47s and 4 C-130s for the entire Project.

The only other planes that I would even consider would be a CV-2 Caribou for STOL and light cargo/passenger use, maybe one per Regional Command Base. Perhaps a U-1 Otter to assist the Caribou for team support, maybe 2 per RCB. The only other aircraft I would consider is a OV-10 Bronco, not only is it an armed COIN aircraft, it also has limited cargo/passenger capability as well as STOL capability.

SOoooo

for a Project we might have 60 Autogyros, 12 OH6s, 4 CH-47s, 4 C-130s, 10 Caribou, 20 Otters and 10 Broncos

Thoughts?
Technically, the Science One in module (censored) has one broken down. You just need to capture it back from the (censored) force before the send it back to (censored). Oh and a HAAM suit too.

I am going with Morrow Project intended to use a host of far less rugged but immediately available aircraft in the form of civil aircraft. Such as Boeing 707s or 747s in air freight configuration. The ones operating outside the U.S. or parked in a convenient desert and listed as non-flightworthy kept far and away from primary and secondary targets.

These would have been intended for use right away with crews not in cryosleep at all.

Such as a 747 reconfigured for mid air refueling (air force model) maybe acquired through a foreign power (we'll buy you two if you buy this one off the books for us).

A cargo frame can be reconfigured internally for other missions like mid air refueling, passengers, ELINT, airborne command post, etc.

Then there is a large range of turbo prop and business class civilian jets that could all be spread out throughout the dozens of corporations that fall under Morrow Industries.

Hidden in plain sight. Now 150+ the crews died, and the craft are junk. Though stock piles of parts, and the maintenance equipment may still be waiting in a supply bunker. There might even be pilots in the Frozen Watch.
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  #62  
Old 04-23-2014, 11:51 PM
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With the lack of well maintained air fields it is most likely the MP would stick to aircraft with ruff field capability if not VTOL capability. The AV-8B Plus could carry out both the Air-to-Air as well as the Air-to-Surface missions, making use of LGB, Maverick, 2.75 inch rocket along with a wide variety of free fall bombs, with AMRAAM and Sidewinder capable with a 25mm Gatling Gun. The other is the V-22 Osprey, it is the replacement for the older CH-46, being faster and having a heavier lift capability. Being fusion powered they would have greater range and would be able to carry out any missions that the project might require. The one craft not mentioned are RPVs. A fusion powered Global Hawk that could fly high and carry out continental recon for 18 month periods before requiring a fusion pack change out would be a great asset. A modified version of the Global Hawk could be used as a communications relay platform if satellite communications aren't available. Teams, especially Recon, should have small aerial RPV for their use and heavier armed versions Like the MQ-9 Reaper (Predator-B) with 4 Hellfire II missiles and 2 GBU-12 Paveway II 500lbs bombs. Even the MQ-1 Predator can carry 2 Hellfire II missiles. Fusion powered RPV with intelligent autopilots would make great force multipliers and could carry out most of the air strike missions that the project would most likely ever need. Want something bigger, pick up a couple X-47B Stealth Attack Drones with 2000 kg (4500lbs) payload, enough for a pair of GBU-16 Paveway II Mk83 1000 lbs laser guided bombs or a pair of B61 (340 Kt) nukes. Wouldn't Damocles love some RPVs to play with?
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  #63  
Old 04-24-2014, 12:50 AM
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Look to the aircraft used by Bush Pilots for small aircraft that could be stored in a Bolt Hole. Many are small, can be reconfigured for landing on water, airfield, or even snow and require the one thing the Project needs. The need a single pilot and are easily acquired and most importantly won't be missed! Not really all that good for cargo but for small scale troop transport or scouting they would do the job quite well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_plane
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  #64  
Old 04-24-2014, 09:52 AM
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This topic reminds me of that old mercenary flick, the Wild Geese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Geese in which a group of mercenaries try to rescue an African politician and get betrayed by their corporate sponsors. Air assets factor in three different times, and it works fairly well for an adventure story.

(1) the tech of the company?
Initially the mercenaries parachute in to conduct their mission. The plane later lands to pick them up, turns around and flies off, leaving the mercenaries stranded. The airplane is a military type cargo plane that can land on a rough airfield, designed for developing countries, and a rear ramp that allows for significant cargo haulage. This strikes me as a practical choice for Morrow. The plane is also a prop aircraft, thus reducing the need for complex jet engine repair, it strikes me as a rough plane capable of simple repairs, dependent on generally available fuel sources. One could arm this aircraft with a mini gun or other weapons, turning into something like an AC-130.

(2) Coercive capacity-
The second time is when the mercenaries get napalmed on a bridge, splitting the group up, wiping out a bunch of the small team, and causing lots of problems. The plane a duel use aircraft armed with machine guns and bombing capacity, I recall duel prop and something you'd see on private airfields all over the US. The bomb strikes me as a fairly simple device. Again, this is a good model for the Morrow project and also reflects the damage that can be done to both members and adversaries by fairly non-advanced technologies that "fit" the story. It also reflects an issue of figuring air assets into the balance of the game. Even if Morrow has pretty good aircraft, there needs to be reasonable constraints on the types of planes it uses- duel use makes sense.

But it also means that adversary air groups need to utilize a tech that reflects, realistically, their capacity. In a world of ballooners seeking to escape the chaos of ground, the indigenous air assets need to have some kind of organic fuel capacity, and the aircraft have to reflect local level of tech. Even if VTOL planes make sense, the technology might be out of reach for maintenance. But this makes airfields an important element of the story as well.

(3) Indigenous capacity and infrastructure-
The third point in the film involves the mercenaries escape- where they find a local priest who is also a bush pilot, knows where there is an old Douglas Dakota cargo plane and offers to spirit them out of the country. The Dakota is an old mid 20th century relic, is in bad shape, and gets shot up and barely makes it out of the country. This too, represents to me a decent example of a reasonable local plane. If we are going to find local air assets that work, it will look something like that Dakota, essentially an airplane running on worn out toothpicks and rubber bands.

If these planes lasted 150s, not only do they have to rely on maintained parts, but also serious training of technical support and personnel to keep the planes airborne. This might mean a small group of dedicated pilots and aircrews who maintain planes either as a collective effort or in isolated groups. Remember, there isn't much population and most people are worried about subsistence- the US has become 1980s Africa in terms of development and infrastructure.

Of course, its your game so do what you want. My only advice here is to be careful with the integration of technology. "Cool" tech can cause more problems than it is worth, while desperation (through material and technical scarcity) might be the mother of innovation. As director of your story, you need to maintain the vitality of your story going forward. If your idea is a modern air war between say the Kentucky Free State and Morrow, ok. Then you have to think about the balance or if it becomes a chain of swatting KFS pilots out of the sky, the game will get boring. But if the problem is, say, acquiring a vaccine (hidden in an ancient lab in Canada) to an outbreak of a lethal form of small pox that is breaking out in an Indian community in New Mexico, than figuring out how to use scarce air assets might be fun.

Last edited by welsh; 04-24-2014 at 10:01 AM.
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  #65  
Old 04-24-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by welsh View Post
This topic reminds me of that old mercenary flick, the Wild Geese, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Geese in which a group of mercenaries try to rescue an African politician and get betrayed by their corporate sponsors. Air assets factor in three different times, and it works fairly well for an adventure story.
A whole campaign can be written around a Team with a DC-3 or a V-22. As can a campaign if you wanted to make you Team nothing but, F-5 pilots. The PD puts the Team up against encounters they can beat and encounters they should run from. A PD also has plans to separate the Team from their high tech gear too.

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(1) the tech of the company?
Initially the mercenaries parachute in to conduct their mission. The plane later lands to pick them up, turns around and flies off, leaving the mercenaries stranded. The airplane is a military type cargo plane that can land on a rough airfield, designed for developing countries, and a rear ramp that allows for significant cargo haulage. This strikes me as a practical choice for Morrow. The plane is also a prop aircraft, thus reducing the need for complex jet engine repair, it strikes me as a rough plane capable of simple repairs, dependent on generally available fuel sources. One could arm this aircraft with a mini gun or other weapons, turning into something like an AC-130.
I agree that something that is prop driven and a short take off and landing (STOL) rated would be a logical choice. The Project though has the resources and the time to buy exactly what they need, then to store it away until it is needed. The Project doesn’t have to improvise.

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Originally Posted by welsh View Post
(2) Coercive capacity-
The second time is when the mercenaries get napalmed on a bridge, splitting the group up, wiping out a bunch of the small team, and causing lots of problems. The plane a duel use aircraft armed with machine guns and bombing capacity, I recall duel prop and something you'd see on private airfields all over the US. The bomb strikes me as a fairly simple device. Again, this is a good model for the Morrow project and also reflects the damage that can be done to both members and adversaries by fairly non-advanced technologies that "fit" the story. It also reflects an issue of figuring air assets into the balance of the game. Even if Morrow has pretty good aircraft, there needs to be reasonable constraints on the types of planes it uses- duel use makes sense.
Any Close Air Support aircraft is a reconnaissance plane with a recon pod attached, and ELINT or Jammer with the right pod attached. Any hardpoints by default make any aircraft multi mission. The F-5 already has a purpose built RF-5 version.

The project could have a few Skyraiders bought up from foreign powers or like the KFS has their own production facility capable of a low rate (1 per month). The Project could also have as a subsidiary company the manufacturers of the Super Tocano. http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com...ght_attack.asp There is a thousand niches for specialized and general aviation in a reconstruction effort in hostile airspace. The nice part about gunships like a AC-47 or AC-130 is the ability to linger over a target for a long time. The gunship can then remain on station protecting the friendlies on the ground and do a lot of damage to hostile forces. Strike craft and even close air support burn a lot of fuel and can’t stay long. These have the advantage of getting there fast versus a gunship which is comparatively much slower.

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Originally Posted by welsh View Post
But it also means that adversary air groups need to utilize a tech that reflects, realistically, their capacity. In a world of ballooners seeking to escape the chaos of ground, the indigenous air assets need to have some kind of organic fuel capacity, and the aircraft have to reflect local level of tech. Even if VTOL planes make sense, the technology might be out of reach for maintenance. But this makes airfields an important element of the story as well.
Well, the KFS is flying P-47Ds. There are other groups that are the same tech level as the Project. That doesn’t include groups that may have anti air assets that haven’t had someone to use them on. Soviets with a ZPU-4 for example.
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Originally Posted by welsh View Post
(3) Indigenous capacity and infrastructure-
The third point in the film involves the mercenaries escape- where they find a local priest who is also a bush pilot, knows where there is an old Douglas Dakota cargo plane and offers to spirit them out of the country. The Dakota is an old mid 20th century relic, is in bad shape, and gets shot up and barely makes it out of the country. This too, represents to me a decent example of a reasonable local plane. If we are going to find local air assets that work, it will look something like that Dakota, essentially an airplane running on worn out toothpicks and rubber bands.

If these planes lasted 150s, not only do they have to rely on maintained parts, but also serious training of technical support and personnel to keep the planes airborne. This might mean a small group of dedicated pilots and aircrews who maintain planes either as a collective effort or in isolated groups. Remember, there isn't much population and most people are worried about subsistence- the US has become 1980s Africa in terms of development and infrastructure.
There is more than one group in the Project encounters that could change priorities and muster the right resources to do this. The KFS. The Lonestar. Even the Warriors of Krell. Not to mention Universities, New Presidencies, and an enclave of Soviets in Mexico, Florida, or the Pacific Northwest.
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Originally Posted by welsh View Post
Of course, its your game so do what you want. My only advice here is to be careful with the integration of technology. "Cool" tech can cause more problems than it is worth, while desperation (through material and technical scarcity) might be the mother of innovation. As director of your story, you need to maintain the vitality of your story going forward. If your idea is a modern air war between say the Kentucky Free State and Morrow, ok. Then you have to think about the balance or if it becomes a chain of swatting KFS pilots out of the sky, the game will get boring. But if the problem is, say, acquiring a vaccine (hidden in an ancient lab in Canada) to an outbreak of a lethal form of small pox that is breaking out in an Indian community in New Mexico, than figuring out how to use scarce air assets might be fun.
The PD giveth, and the PD taketh away.



*crackle crackle* “ANY STATION This net! Any Station this NET! This is Mike Oscar Zero Two!
ANY STATION This is Mike OSCAR Zero Two! Immediate support! OVER! “ The voice was high pitched, the speech rushed, and the crackle of gunfire could be heard in the background. “Any Station this net! Any Station this net this is Mike Oscar Zero Two! Immediate support, OVER!” The gun fire had increased, and some sounded as though the operator was at full cyclic rate. “My God! Anyone! This is Mike Oscar Zero Two! Immediate *boom* support! OVER! “ A momentary pause as any explosion sounded off near the radio operator.

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One, I copy yours, Over.” A calm voice came up on TacNet one. “Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Oscar Zero Two, Oh my God! Can you help us? (pause) Over. “ The voice seemed dazed and unbelieving that anyone could pull him out of this situation. “Mike Oscar o Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One, Authenticate Alpha, Victor, Young man and I’ll see what I have.” The voice was abundant and calm, probably what a radio operator under determined attack needed to hear. “Diamond Zero One, this is Mike Oscar Zero Two, I authenticate Bravo, Over”… The voice was tremulous, unsure, even disbelieving” .
“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One, that’s the magic word. Squawk your Autonav, and give me a sitrep, Over.”
“Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Zero Two, transmitting now. We’re pinned! Can you help?”
“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One, I have your ident and grid. Enroute your position, with an Eeee TEeee AY, of two mikes, Over”.

“Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Zero Two, thank you! Which road you coming on? West is blocked, our hostiles are West of my position, over”.
“Mike Zero Two, this is Diamond Zero One. No roads today, Diamond FLIGHT is inbound on your position. Mark your targets. Bad guys are bananas, say again, bad guys are bananas, over”

Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Zero Two, Targets will be marked, Bananas. Did you just say, flight, Over?”

Mike Zero Two, This is Diamond Zero One. Affirmative, this is Diamond Flight. Enroute to assist, EEE TEE Ayyyy to assist is 60 seconds, over”

“Diamond Two, Diamond One, on me. Diamond Three, Four, High Guard”.
“Two”
“Three”
“Four” more calm voices came over the Morrow Project Tactical Net.
“All Diamonds, Diamond One, Weapons Hot! Targets are bananas, confirm”

“Two, hot.”
“Three, hot.”
“Four, hot.”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One, gonna need a target description, over”

“Oh my god! Diamond Zero One, This is Mike Oscar Zero Two! Hostiles are two trucks with heavy machineguns supported by platoon strength dismounts. They have formed a firing line 300 meters west of mine on a ditch embankment. Our V is in the open and I have casualties, Over”.

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One, beginning my run. Find cover, Over”

“Diamond Three, One. Immediate retrans this sitch for Regional.” “Let’s get some Evac assets on the way, Over”

“Diamond One, Three. Retrans now, Over”.

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, this is Diamond One. I see you. Breaking branches your East. Targets are bananas, confirm, Over”.

“Diamond One, you’re an airplane? We have airplanes? Oh my god! Targets marked Yellow smoke, Over!”

“Confirmed, Diamond One, Engaging, Over”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, Diamond One, confirm strike, trucks down? Over”

“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two, Their burning! The trucks are burning! Thank you! Over”

“Diamand Two, start your run, over”

“Two”

“Diamond One, Diamond One! Their running!, the hostiles are running! Over!”

“One, Two, Clear”

“Two, One, Affirm”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, this is Diamond One. We’ll be making a second run, South to North. Remark targets as necessary.”

“Diamond One, Three”
“Three, One”
“One, Three. Regional says remain on station. Angel Four is inbound for EEEE Vack. Two Zero mikes at best speed, over”
“Three, One, copy, remain on high guard, over”
“Three”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, this is Diamond One, How are things down there now? Over”

“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two! Oh god, thanks, thanks! Most of them ran. Still taking some fire from the embankment maybe five to ten, can’t tell. Over”

“Three, One, got that?”
“One, Three, Affirm”
“Diamond One, beginning my run.”
“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two, I see you! Their running! Running West!”

“Mike Oscar Zero Two, Diamond One. Let’s see if they can run faster than that.”

“Two, One. Abort your run. Target neutralized”

“One, Two, copy, Abort Run, Over”
“Two, One copies”

“Diamond One, This is Mike Oscar Zero Two! You did it! Their gone! You saved us! Over!”
“Mike Oscar Zero Two, This is Diamond One. Glad to help. Your EEE Vack is inbound and Diamond Flight is going to hang around until your wounded are safe and you are moving, Over”

“Diamond One, Mike Oscar Zero Two, Thank you! Oh my god, Thank you! Over.

“Diamond One, Out”

“All Diamonds, Diamond One. Climb to Angels two thousand and standby to assist Eeee Vack as necessary.”
“Two”
“Three”
“Four”
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  #66  
Old 04-24-2014, 06:03 PM
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The more sophisticated the aerial equipment, the sophisticated the support facilities that are required. CV-22, F-5, AV-8B Plus, X-47B Stealth Drone would only be at Prime Base. They require a lot of maintenance to keep them flying. This means trained and experience ground crews. Even the MQ-1 and MQ-9 require established bases to operate from. Really anything more then an ultralight can't be maintained in the field. Pulling the primary drive motor of a vehicle requires the assistance of a recovery or engineering vehicle with the proper tools. Recon teams should have small drones to assist in their work. A neat idea is to have a supply catch to have a trailer mounted drone system for a team, rather then giving it to them to start with. Be imaginative, a small drone that looks like an Eagle or Condor when seen from a distance.
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  #67  
Old 04-24-2014, 10:11 PM
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Drone wise I would figure the project wouldn't have the most up to date designs if they had them at all. But how about the AAI RQ-2 Pioneer? They used those during the 80's and the 90's and were landed by crashing them into a net! Plus they have the distinction of having Iraqi troops try to surrender to one flying overhead.
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Old 04-26-2014, 04:36 PM
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ArmySgt- nice little dramatic story telling. But it also raises a point. Given the awesome air-to-air combat and air-to-ground repressive capacity of a technically efficient air wing, there comes back the problem of balance and gaming.

My worry is that giving Morrow too much of an air wing against a technologically relatively unsophisticated population would seem to a game of strawmen. Your Morrow F-5s vs KFS P-47Ds seems unbalance. Given a choice of challenge, better to let the bad guys have the edge and put the onus on your team to figure a way to respond.

I think a better story might be of your Morrow team trying to evade getting hit by KFS P-47Ds- a better challenge. Or even your Morrow team trying to figure out how its recon helicopters could engaged the P-47Ds. Or maybe your Morrow Team needs to figure a way to hit the P-47Ds so that they are not a threat, because the KFS is using its military edge to coerce local communities to its bidding. If you give your team F-5s to deal with the KFS, or any real threat, than the challenge of your story begins to diminish.

With regard to energy- I am a bit worried that the fusion reactor/power plant is a tech that is easily abused and potentially lost. If every aircraft or vehicle is running with a long life fusion power plant under the hood- what happens when that plant blows up in combat, or is captured by a technologically superior or equivalent entity.

Why not minimize the use of fusion powered plants as energy generators, and allow your vehicles to run on long-life batteries. To regenerate, the team to find a viable power source capable of recharge. But I admit, this breaks from canon.
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Old 04-27-2014, 08:05 PM
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ArmySgt- nice little dramatic story telling. But it also raises a point. Given the awesome air-to-air combat and air-to-ground repressive capacity of a technically efficient air wing, there comes back the problem of balance and gaming.

My worry is that giving Morrow too much of an air wing against a technologically relatively unsophisticated population would seem to a game of strawmen. Your Morrow F-5s vs KFS P-47Ds seems unbalance. Given a choice of challenge, better to let the bad guys have the edge and put the onus on your team to figure a way to respond.

I think a better story might be of your Morrow team trying to evade getting hit by KFS P-47Ds- a better challenge. Or even your Morrow team trying to figure out how its recon helicopters could engaged the P-47Ds. Or maybe your Morrow Team needs to figure a way to hit the P-47Ds so that they are not a threat, because the KFS is using its military edge to coerce local communities to its bidding. If you give your team F-5s to deal with the KFS, or any real threat, than the challenge of your story begins to diminish.

With regard to energy- I am a bit worried that the fusion reactor/power plant is a tech that is easily abused and potentially lost. If every aircraft or vehicle is running with a long life fusion power plant under the hood- what happens when that plant blows up in combat, or is captured by a technologically superior or equivalent entity.

Why not minimize the use of fusion powered plants as energy generators, and allow your vehicles to run on long-life batteries. To regenerate, the team to find a viable power source capable of recharge. But I admit, this breaks from canon.

The KFS either has in storage or can produce quickly AAA to meet a new airborne threat. Currently their adversaries don't field anything and the KFS air arm has complete air dominance. It will be a shock to the KFS pilots if the are engaged by a Project stinger missile.

The Commando Scout may have the elevation to engage slow moving aircraft like a helo.

The Warriors of Krell certainly have stingers in their possession acquired from captured bases, caches, and teams.

The Lonestar State could produce gun type AAA but currently cannot produce sophisticated electronics.

The Deseret Republic is steam / 1880s

The Brotherhood (or what is left) could conceivably have ZPU-2, ZPU-4, and ZSU-23-4 that are operational without electronics. Any missiles would probably have been expended or lost due to time and exposure.

The Soviets in Washington State and Florida probably don't have any missiles either for the same reasons. However, they would have all the gun type AAA with severely depleted stocks of ammunition.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:49 AM
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Dumb question, in front of many VA buildings there generally is some piece of military hardware. A Artillery Piece, Cannonballs, Bofor AA guns from WW-II. Could survivors use the Bofor AA Guns as a template and produce there own AA guns for themselves? Sure they have been demil'd but it shouldn't be hard to figure out what has been removed and replace it and then just making the ammo is just a matter of small scale industry. I could see KFS doing so after they lose air supremacy or even before to use as ground weapons.
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Old 04-28-2014, 02:54 PM
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Dumb question, in front of many VA buildings there generally is some piece of military hardware. A Artillery Piece, Cannonballs, Bofor AA guns from WW-II. Could survivors use the Bofor AA Guns as a template and produce there own AA guns for themselves? Sure they have been demil'd but it shouldn't be hard to figure out what has been removed and replace it and then just making the ammo is just a matter of small scale industry. I could see KFS doing so after they lose air supremacy or even before to use as ground weapons.
Certain groups mentioned above could feasibly do so. The guns are not that hard to make for some. The quality of steel, the machine tooling, and the educated machinist being the highest limiting factors to make AAA.

It is the electronics that stops it all cold. The AAA round relies on the proximity fuse (a mini radar) to detonate the HE shell near an aircraft. This was a huge innovation on the U.S. side in WW2 to counter the Japanese naval pilots. This relies on the manufacturers ability to produce transistors and miniature circuitry.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:31 PM
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I think honestly, if, to use a term used by my science teacher, the fecal matter is hitting the rotary air impeller.

The idea of Proximity fuses will be thrown out of the window for just getting enough copper jacketed lead and anything ELSE that can be shoved down the barrels into the air, yes it does mean you need a hit, but I think even the heavy-duty and versatile Hind would have trouble flying after taking a 20mm round though part of the engine block, or a few large holes in the tail boom.
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  #73  
Old 04-29-2014, 11:00 AM
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I think honestly, if, to use a term used by my science teacher, the fecal matter is hitting the rotary air impeller.

The idea of Proximity fuses will be thrown out of the window for just getting enough copper jacketed lead and anything ELSE that can be shoved down the barrels into the air, yes it does mean you need a hit, but I think even the heavy-duty and versatile Hind would have trouble flying after taking a 20mm round though part of the engine block, or a few large holes in the tail boom.
Hey! Nice to see you back!

I hope the Morrow Project muse has ignited your digital palette.

Actually the Hind could shrug off a 20mm as it is armored but, I can see where your going. Yes, a quad .50 either on a trailer or on a truck would be bad mojo. A 20mm vulcan would be bad news for most stuff.

The trouble with gun AAA is it is very local and there is the danger of stuff coming right back down on your head.

Currently the KFS is the only faction that appears capable of producing fuzed AAA ammunition. Everyone else could make solid or impact fused (20mm and larger) munitions in small lots (under 1000).

The proverbial "Wall of Lead" is still effect at defending a point or structure.

Missiles though extend that defense and make it capable for one unit to defend a significant portion of airspace.

Take a Quad .50 and it is good for 2000 meters. Compare this to the Chaparral and the effective range of 17, 700 meters.

The KFS does field .50 M2 machineguns so some inherent capability for AA defense exists already and troops would just need training.
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Old 04-30-2014, 01:51 PM
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I never left Sgt. just got stuck with a lack of creativity and various issues that mean I am well and truly scuppered.

But in regards to the Hind, yes it is armoured, but if you have the doors open and a round goes though the open door and hits the underside of the engine, I think it will do damage, as I don't recall that part being armoured as well.
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Old 04-30-2014, 02:12 PM
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Dumb question, in front of many VA buildings there generally is some piece of military hardware. A Artillery Piece, Cannonballs, Bofor AA guns from WW-II. Could survivors use the Bofor AA Guns as a template and produce there own AA guns for themselves? Sure they have been demil'd but it shouldn't be hard to figure out what has been removed and replace it and then just making the ammo is just a matter of small scale industry. I could see KFS doing so after they lose air supremacy or even before to use as ground weapons.
The only problem with reverse engineering something like a Bofor 40mm AAA piece is determining if the tolerances are in specifications on each part.

That part could be large (over spec) or it could be small (under spec) and with either that can mean all kinds of performance gremlins crop up when trying to use the new manufactured bits.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:09 PM
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I never left Sgt. just got stuck with a lack of creativity and various issues that mean I am well and truly scuppered.

But in regards to the Hind, yes it is armoured, but if you have the doors open and a round goes though the open door and hits the underside of the engine, I think it will do damage, as I don't recall that part being armoured as well.
Can you go back to University for Graphic Design? Those M20 skills are pretty impressive.
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Old 05-01-2014, 07:30 AM
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Can't afford it, but I do bits here and there, will up my Deviant Art page in my sig, as I have done some non Morrow stuff, and my next plan is an aircraft, that Morrow could have possibly used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTV_XC-142
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:36 AM
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Nice plane, seen it when I went to Dayton a few years back. And a aircraft I could see as being used by the Project.
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Old 05-02-2014, 11:26 AM
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Can't afford it, but I do bits here and there, will up my Deviant Art page in my sig, as I have done some non Morrow stuff, and my next plan is an aircraft, that Morrow could have possibly used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTV_XC-142
I have your DeviantArt page marked to "watch" and have been patiently awaiting your updates for months.

Maybe you could tackle some Kentucky Free States equipment? Or let out your inner "Mad Max" on some Gypsy Truckers or Warriors of Krell?

I think I will do up some game stats for a Grumman Goose and a PBY Catalina.

Amphibious Observation and Search & Rescue planes for the MARS division.

Updated electronics, Carbon fiber skins, titanium alloy frame members, and fusion powered electric propellers.

Huge weight savings in not having to carry thousands of pounds of fuel.
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:56 PM
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One of the things I am stalled on is some good images for "External Stores", such as fuel tanks, missiles, rocket pods, dumb bombs, guided bombs, ELINT pods, Gun pods, Areal Torpedoes, etc.

I don't really do "mad max" and I have been trying to knock off a few more vehicles, but as with everything, if I don't have all the pieces, I can get stalled, which is why my "Aviation projects" are stalled until I get get the external stores images.

If I get other stuff, such as field shell images for sizing and such, I may do big guns and tanks, but for now, I am trying to do air, but google search is failing me.
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:33 PM
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One of the things I am stalled on is some good images for "External Stores", such as fuel tanks, missiles, rocket pods, dumb bombs, guided bombs, ELINT pods, Gun pods, Areal Torpedoes, etc.

I don't really do "mad max" and I have been trying to knock off a few more vehicles, but as with everything, if I don't have all the pieces, I can get stalled, which is why my "Aviation projects" are stalled until I get get the external stores images.

If I get other stuff, such as field shell images for sizing and such, I may do big guns and tanks, but for now, I am trying to do air, but google search is failing me.
Go to Scribd.com

Hundreds of field manuals from different countries have been uploaded by various users.

To use it for free, they have a upload one to download one policy. A year membership is pretty low though.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/213392736/...Ground-Systems
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Old 05-03-2014, 06:01 PM
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Just for the people who want a possible "heavy fighter"

http://braden1986.deviantart.com/art...avoc-451833313
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:05 AM
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Default Chaparral is NOT Sidewinder

Chaparral MIM-72 is based on a Sidewinder AIM-9 missile, but was modified to operate from a ground launch platform. It used a different rocket motor and reduced control surfaces. MIM-72A only had a range of 6000 meters and a speed of Mach 1.5 (1838 kph)(510.6 m/s) or 1.8 km per Combat Turn. the later MIM-72C&G version are listed at having a range of 9000 meters, with the G version have a new smokeless motor and the same IR seeker as FIM-92 Stinger. Where someone came up with the idea of 17,700m range for Chaparral is by treating it as the air launched version which it isn't. Chaparral being launched from the ground does not have Sidewinders advantage of being air launched where it is already at near Mach speeds. It has to provide all its own energy to gain speed and altitude, requiring a different type of rocket motor. This is why there were projections for improvements to the ADATS, giving it a IR seeker in addition to laser homing and a secondary version that would use a AIM-120 AMRAAM seeker in place of the original laser homing system, which would improve range. But who says the KFS doesn't have jet technology and just not shown it yet. A version of the follow on to the ME262 or other early jets, like flying wing bombers could throw a real challenge for the team.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:47 PM
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What about the

Piper PA-48 Enforcer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_PA-48_Enforcer
Cavalier Mustang - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalier_Mustang
North American P-51 Mustang - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_A...t-World_War_II
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Old 05-09-2014, 08:08 PM
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I think those would be better choices than F5s, and certainly a better balance to the KFS, but the problem is - why develop a fighter aircraft (with all the resources necessary to maintain the plane) when there are applications that need attention? Given the Morrow mission, why purchase fighters? We can leave aside the difficulty in buying advanced military fighter aircraft- something multinational enterprises usually don't do, but which might be sidestepped if you buy duel use. Of course with a heavy dose of imagination, I guess anything is possible.

The problem of having dedicated air assets in a fighter or even attack capacity, suggests that the project would anticipate the need for it in lieu of other purposes. Given that the project was supposed to rebuild after a nuclear war, I would think that aircraft, if budgeted, would be needed for recon and transportation, be low maintenance, technologically not very sophisticated, and practical. The reasons are simple that the needs for the mission demand it- low cost/multi-purpose/low tech- requiring minimal manpower (as talented labor is in short-supply). These are planes that might be adapted for military purpose, but military purpose is of secondary importance. The project's purpose is to rebuild.

There are a couple of streams of thought that you could utilize in justifying or explaining aircraft. I think there are three- the "unlimited Morrow" approach, the "Balance against potential enemies approach" or the "Morrow is a constrained organization" approach. Each reflects different mindsets about how to play the game.

(1) The Morrow Project needs them so acquires them and feels its justified to make the expense in labor and financial capital. Unlimited financial capacity and imagination can take this idea very far. In fact, that logic can go pretty fair to justify anything. My thinking is that the project would do something practical. The bigger your game project, the more likely that it might have jets. Assume the project could spend unlimited amounts, than why not buy spacecraft too or modern satellites. After all those are pretty sophisticated Science and Mars vehicles in the book. Granted those are few in number and far apart, suggesting limits in the scope of the project.

My feeling on this is that the advanced technology is pretty limited by the game's main book. I would be reluctant to go beyond that.

(2) Balancing with adversaries. Sgt has made this argument, but the only real adversary that has air capacity seems to have KFS and they have World War 2 era Thunderbolts. I would be curious to know how many Thunderbolts still remain operational today. In that sense, your choices seem a fair balance.

The down side of this is that if the Project beats KFS (and it probably will) than Morrow Project has now acquired air dominance. Beware Ballooners and every other faction. Sure they might have sidewinders and AAA capacity that might shoot down your planes, but those are fixed and if you have a wild weasel aircraft, maybe you can knock those planes out too. A dictator takes over the Project and can become the king of America, a benevolent (or not so benevolent) dictatorship because it has the capacity of bombing just about any opposition it might face. Cool side of that is that a slave federation or a bunch of former soviet forces with technology 150 years old (and with little residual know-how to service it) may save America from the best intentions (made corrupt by power-hungry leaders) of the Morrow Project. Not sure how Morrow didn't anticipate that possibility- but it might make for a new story line.

(3) The Morrow Project operates under stiff constraints- The Morrow Project is a small group whose mission is primarily rebuilding and redevelopment of a country largely destroyed by nuclear warfare. Delayed from undertaking its mission, it has few people, few resources and significant constraints. If it meets with a powerful enemy, that means it has to find a way to rise to the challenge, perhaps against a foe that has it outmatched in terms of military technology- thus the challenge is high. The goal of this game is not necessarily to make the game cool or easy, but to make it hard and challenging for the players by giving them significant obstacles to overcome.

That doesn't mean that you couldn't incorporate your airplanes into the story, but you would have to think about how. For instance, lets say that the KFS and its aircraft are threatening neighbors with bombing- utilizing air dominance to impose its demands through the threat, and occasional display of coercive capacity. The Project knows of this and has had its team hit by these planes in the past. To put an end to this, it needs to come up with an alternative- perhaps a trap in which the project uses its limited anti-air assets to shoot down the planes. Perhaps a commando raid to destroy the planes (or steal them) from the KFS. Perhaps a quick strike by armed air scouts against the air field to hit the planes while they are still on the ground. Perhaps these planes- meant for quick communication- can be put to service.

Or perhaps there is another group that might help. Perhaps a small group of pilots, largely operating independently or in cooperation with each other, are flying across the country creating a form of postal service between communities. They have taught generations of their children how to maintain the planes (although that knowledge is a bit weak after 150 years). They operate single planes out of bumpy air fields, perhaps the utilize some form of alternative fuel or energy to keep their planes in the air. The planes themselves have seen lots of wear and tear over 150 years, and are held together by bubblegum, rubber bands and prayer as well as craftsman ship and innovation.

Some of those planes might be like those you posted- rather simple, easy to maintain, practical and low cost. Maybe there are others that fit. A hodgepodge collection of ancient airplanes of uncertain maintenance and ability, being put to the test against the KFS's dedicated fighters. That would be kind of fun.

The story might be that the Project has to find a way to enlist these pilots, organized them, and perhaps even arm them to respond to the KFS. This may require some bargaining and perhaps some subterfuge, as well as the creation of potential back-up plans if this craps out. The odds remain against them, but the choice is stark. Either the Project can fashion the alliance of the KFS seizes more towns and imposes its rules.

Honestly, as a player or a director, I would prefer a difficult challenge than resolving the problem through the easy adoption of military tech and all the problems that might come from that. But at the end of the day, its your story. You decide what goes into it. I caution against advanced technology.

Another way of thinking about it comes down to how heavy do you want the military side of the game to dominate the story. Power, or I should say socially organized power, comes in different forms. Military power as social power is fundamentally concentrated and coercive- and its power at its most brutal and blunt. But there are other forms of power- ideological, economic, and political to name of few. Those forms of power operate on different logics. As I see the Morrow Project, military power is deemed essential but secondary to the broader purposes- which are economic, social, political and ideological. The problem of military power is that the consequences of its abuse are high but its application is generally destructive. As Gamer argued a page or two earlier, the goal of the project is to rebuild the country, not to create a more powerful warlord. Again, it's your game. Are you creating a mini-warlord, or are you in the difficult business of rebuilding a society. THe later requires the capacity to rebuild communities, find some ideological purchase, mediate conflicts, build communities- the stuff of the other forms of social power.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:25 PM
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Using that criteria justify the Morrow Projects fielding of:

The MARS One
The Chapparal missile
The TOW Missile
The 81mm Mortar
The M9 flamethrower
40mm grenade launchers
fragmentation handgrenades
M60 machineguns
M240 machineguns
M2 .50cal machineguns
Antitank mines
claymore mines
Antipersonnel mines
Nerve agent

Because they are all in 3rd edition and fielded by the Project.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:06 AM
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Using that criteria justify the Morrow Projects fielding of:

The MARS One
The Chapparal missile
The TOW Missile
The 81mm Mortar
The M9 flamethrower
40mm grenade launchers
fragmentation handgrenades
M60 machineguns
M240 machineguns
M2 .50cal machineguns
Antitank mines
claymore mines
Antipersonnel mines
Nerve agent

Because they are all in 3rd edition and fielded by the Project.
In short, they are all problematic. The weapons systems would all be difficult to get in the US by normal legal means. That's not to say that a private company couldn't buy them, but under very strict licensing rules or they could buy them abroad. But large purchases of such weapons- needed to field an army of between 10-50K people would raise serious red flags. Even private military companies will often acquire weapons through the surrogate agency of a sovereign state.

But most of the weapons above a small arms and can be purchased abroad. In certain places around the world, there is a glut on small arms. Some of these weapons however are rather unusual. Morrow One for instance. Other weapons would raise other red flags- nerve agents? We see by the administration's willingness to provide TOW missile systems to Syrian insurgents that such transfers draw attention.

But when you talk about advanced fighters you are talking some big ticket items. Those who sell such systems are under significant constraints in how they sell and where those weapons going. Advanced fighter aircraft are prestige items, the prize of a country's arsenal. They don't go to private agencies easily.

I would be concerned about costs- A lightly armored V-150 is significantly less expensive than an advance F5 fighter aircraft, and you can probably do more with the V-150.

Sgt your argument is "If the Morrow says it, than it is possible." I am not disputing that. My argument is "How?" I admit that's a question I have with regard to other weapons that the Morrow Project offers to players. To me, that becomes the basis of some rather interesting story telling about the nature of the Morrow Project itself.

A second argument point is "does it make sense for the game." That goes to the issue of game craft. If you want a game that emphasizes the use of military technology in a post-apocalyptic world- ok. But it seems from the game design that the military aspects are secondary to the overall story. This I am pulling form the 4th edition where the authors are justifying "why so many weapons-because it might be a hostile world."

I think there is a choice that needs to be made- is this a game about war making or a game about rebuilding. Arguably, aspects of war and development overlap, but every story needs to show some heirarchy of preferences.

If you argue abundance and warmaking- than anything is possible. The danger is you've set up a bunch of strawmen that are easily knocked down- like world war 2 era Thunderbolts taking on modern F5 aircraft.

If you argue constraint and development - than things are more difficult and challenging, your enemies are harder to fight and require more imagination and innovation, where your scouts are being hunted down by World War 2 era Thunderbolts. I find that a better story.

As for game design and consequence, well history suggests that in regions with little real political infrastructure, weak economies and social conflict- those with military dominance tend to rule and exploit their military power to rule through the use or threat of coercion. Dictatorship becomes the norm, even if originally motivated for benevolent purposes. I would be surprised if the Morrow Project would be able to overcome that temptation. And should it fall to that temptation, than the result is usually a coup within.

If you give your Morrow Project a decisive military edge through superior aircraft, and if you are trying to tell a realistic story, than you have to deal with those implications. Otherwise, its just more wishful thinking.

But it is your story to do with as you will.
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Old 05-10-2014, 10:55 AM
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A lot of equipment the Project has was bought from company's that were also part of the Project itself. CoT members held top jobs in those company's and fudged orders. Probably double billing the US Government or charging extra for foreign orders and then making extra gear and stocking it away. Say the 4th Edition had the Stryker as a usable vehicle. The company that makes them gets an order from the US Government for ten of them, and a bunch of foreign orders for another fifteen. The CoT influenced company that makes the Stryker charges the US Gov't for thirteen and the foreign orders for twenty with the excuse of issues in the plant and rising costs. They all pay because its the only place to get a Stryker. The extra money is put into producing Stryker's for the Project with the excuse there demonstration models or testing models that will be tested to destruction. They might even get a few more out of the plant as well in parts.
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Old 05-10-2014, 03:10 PM
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There are a variety of ways that Project could get weapon systems, but there are potential challenges for each. A military contract that get fudged means the project is willing to break the law to get its weapon systems. Given the nature of the project, its secrecy, and the potential risks- chances are it is not getting the weapons through illegal channels though. Even a small Morrow Project would still need to do it legally.

(For those interested- the Dogs of War - both the book and movie- talk about the challenge of private militaries getting guns. The film the Wild Geese, never really develop that issue but simply assumes away that the corporate sponsor could do it).

Is the Morrow Project or Morrow Industries a weapons supplier? Is it a private military company? Perhaps Morrow Industries is a private company whose job it was essentially oversee weapon sales to developing countries or to provision peacekeeping forces in an increasingly hostile world. Perhaps Morrow was hired to purchase military surplus from countries that are going through a process of demilitarizing. Perhaps as suggested in the 4th ed. its in the business of training peacekeepers and armed forces. Or maybe it was hired by the US government in the 1950s with a contract to develop civil defense infrastructure and capacity in the event of a nuclear war.

Do these questions matter? Kind of, if you think origins matter, or if you want your characters to deal with the consequences of that history. If so, I suspect the problem the project faces is that they are constrained in their resources and technology more than they'd like to be.

I don't want to create the wrong impression. Sgt has made a strong argument in favor of his F5 and other advanced tech. I can see others making arguments for an A-10. What flavor of advanced warplane do you like?

But I can also see a world in which someone has also made a dirigible- a maintained Goodyear Blimp. Imagine a story where, 150 years after a nuclear war, the Goodyear Blimp armed with nerve gas on a mission to bomb a city finds itself in the middle of an air battle with improvised bi-planes that, once upon a time, were crop dusters.

I have made a counter argument. Neither is right or wrong- because what matters is story telling. Does it fit the story? As directors you have to decide how much of the manual you want to follow and how much you want to create or change to fit what you think is the story. That story shapes the worldview of the game itself or "what kind of story do you want" mindful of the consequences. You can add weapons and tech or actually reduce it.

My feeling- keep it simple, practical and low-tech- it makes sense for the Project, keeps the challenge to the players high (especially if they have to acquire the assets or form an alliance with those who have the assets), and maintains balance with potential adversaries. But that's because I like a rougher and lower-tech view of a post-apocalypse. Neither position is wrong- just different.
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Old 05-10-2014, 04:23 PM
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You misunderstand my intention.

I don't intend to unleash a squadron of F5s into the 150+ years after the WAR timeline.

I intend to flesh out all of the Morrow Project.

To cover all the bases. To have prepared ahead of time a reasonable explanation for the existence and a plausible excuse for why the personnel and equipment is missing.

I am still going to run it with the loss of Prime, the 150+ year over sleep, teams awaken singly. No communications. No other Team. No survivors have even heard of the Project.

As the PCs play out each of the Modules I will bring more and more of the Project online. Depending on how well they do. If they fail then those assets stay dormant. It is kinda like a choose your own adventure book.

In my rendition of the Project. After the events of Lone Star, the KFS sets its eyes on the Republic. Seeing them as weakened by the fight with the Brotherhood, and the oil production vulnerable to takeover makes invasion tempting. The detection of signals from the Morrowsat makes invasion necessary in the eyes of the Rich Five.

Desperately the Republic tries to bring together an air force of their own using any WW2 plane that can be scavenged. The KFS has total superiority in training, condition of the planes, pilots, and ground crews. Republic planes are either shot down or forced to land at a KFS controlled field and seized.

So, in comes some communications, the facility leader at the Projects (censored) in the state of (censored) from Desert Search is ranking enough to know some things. He has sent the Recon unit that woke up his Team in search of Prime.

Your Recon must find the SW air defense and SAR assets.

The Republic is the only entity that is governed on the principles of the U.S. Constitution. The Republic must not fail.
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