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  #31  
Old 06-18-2015, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Anna Elizabeth View Post
Does anyone think that soldiers in T2K would buy or make brass catchers for their weapons? Perhaps there is something about brass catchers that would hinder performance, so I don't know.
Good question Anna I dont the troops buying brass catchers as ammo only becomes scare in the later stages of the war as fewers and fewers ships arrive in europe and by that time getting itmes from the mail wouldnt happen. If you found them in europe odds are the troops would just take them no purchase nessary lol

I think you see a lot of field-expedient aka home made ones using whatever troops could find. The weapon system and way the round is ejected would determine if it hinder performance. For example weapons mounted on vehicles or to fixed postions might have a sandbag attached by some wire for a catcher
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Old 06-18-2015, 12:28 PM
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That makes sense. I've seen ads for brass catchers on AR-15-type weapons, but what is nice for a hobbyist might not work in the field.
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  #33  
Old 06-18-2015, 12:56 PM
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I also think PC might want to pick all the brass after a firefight that they win anybody know what a spent casing weights?
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  #34  
Old 06-18-2015, 01:36 PM
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I also think PC might want to pick all the brass after a firefight that they win anybody know what a spent casing weights?
That depends partly on what material the casings are made out of, doesn't it? Might not make much difference if you're just picking up a few dozen casings, but several hundred you might begin to feel the difference.

I know brass is a common material for a lot of cartridges, but the Soviets among others were still using some lacquered steel casings, weren't they? I think there was a thread around here somewhere that had some discussion on Soviet steel-cased ammo.

Another thing to take into consideration is that the ejection action on some weapons, depending on the make and model can be pretty violent and either damage or even rip the case in half.
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  #35  
Old 06-18-2015, 09:01 PM
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As a rough rule of thumb: -
1. any Heckler & Koch firearm of the G3 & MP5 family and related designs (e.g. CETME Model C) will all damage the brass due to their roller-delayed blowback operation. Most other designs will only do minor/inconsequential/no damage unless it's a catastrophic failure of the ammo or the random chance that the ejected brass hits the sides of the ejection port (the H&K weapons increase this random chance to a positive certainty!).
2. Soviets used lacquered steel cases to save on brass (brass was a strategic metal they never seemed to have enough of).


P.S. the steel cases were lacquered to stop them from rusting so we're not talking about high quality steel, even with that they can still be reloaded a few times however.

Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 06-18-2015 at 09:05 PM. Reason: adding info
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  #36  
Old 06-19-2015, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by swaghauler View Post
I Highly doubt that lacquered cases would ever make it onto a modern battlefield. Heat resistant lacquer would be in short supply while an old substitute (wax) would not. The Soviets have shown that painted steel cases can work very handily in modern actions. Stock AR-15's can use the Wolf brand steel cased ammo without a problem. Lacquered cases were used during WW2; but modern powder and lacquer DON'T mix. A hot wax seal around the bullet crimp would work just as well for sealing out water (rust would be a "non-issue" in the cottage industry reloading plant, they simply wouldn't care) and could be used to seal plastic shotgun shell hulls. The brass cases from fired ammo are pretty hardy and even a "green" brass case can be polished very quickly in a case tumbler. Most rounds can be reloaded between 10 and 12 times providing they weren't loaded to +P pressures (which will reduce case life). Even the harshly "dinged" cases from an H&K "enhanced blowback" roller locking action (MP5, G3, HK33/41, MG3) can usually be salvaged by running them through a 2 piece (inside and outside) resizing die. I would roll a 1d10 for 6 or less for successful resizing of crimped cases.
In the 1950's the U.S. made and issued steel cased .30 carbine, .30-06 M2 and .45ACP. There are Berdan primer punches that one must turn the case until the punch meets the holes, but water and a dowel rod can do the same job. Berdan reloading primers are made and a Boxer conversion DIY video is online for inspiration.
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  #37  
Old 06-19-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by .45cultist View Post
In the 1950's the U.S. made and issued steel cased .30 carbine, .30-06 M2 and .45ACP. There are Berdan primer punches that one must turn the case until the punch meets the holes, but water and a dowel rod can do the same job. Berdan reloading primers are made and a Boxer conversion DIY video is online for inspiration.
I have and do still reload steel cased and Berdan primed cases. What I was referring to in my post is the fact that the chemicals in modern lacquer will leech into modern "ECO-FRIENDLY" smokeless powder and "kill" said powder. The same is true for most lubrication and also any carb cleaner you might use to clean your weapon with. Using lacquer in any cottage industry reloader would contaminate the inside of the case when you resized it and cause major ignition reliability issues. That's why I said that most small operations would simply forego the lacquer and just punch out "raw" mild steel casings. They could "rattle can" paint them afterwards but I don't see anyone wasting the time to do this on cheap ammo. The better cases (salvaged brass) would be saved for "higher paying customers" or the local authority.
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  #38  
Old 06-20-2015, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Wiki has this list of significant salt mining sites in Europe: -
Austria - Hallstatt and Salzkammergut.
Bosnia - Tuzla
Bulgaria - Provadiya; and Solnitsata, an ancient town believed by Bulgarian archaeologists to be the oldest in Europe and the site of a salt production facility approximately six millennia ago.
England - The "-wich towns" of Cheshire and Worcestershire.
Germany - Rheinberg, Berchtesgaden
Italy - Racalmuto, Realmonte and Petralia Soprana within the production sites managed by Italkali.
N. Ireland - Kilroot, near Carrickfergus, more than a century old and containing passages whose combined length exceeds 25 km.
Poland - Wieliczka and Bochnia, both established in the mid-13th century and still operating, mostly as museums.
Romania - Slănic (with Salina Veche, Europe's largest salt mine), Cacica, Ocnele Mari, Salina Turda, Târgu Ocna, Ocna Sibiului and Praid.

Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_mining

This could make for an interesting change of pace, military operations to locate and secure salt mines.

As an aside, in the USA one of the significant salt mining sites is under Detroit, Michigan.
Another place in the US would be the salt mines in Western NY - they are very large and definitely would be an important resource to guard and exploit with refrigeration lacking to preserve meat and fish
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  #39  
Old 06-29-2015, 02:54 PM
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Also available for salt is evaporated sea water. This technique was used for centuries in warm coastal areas:
  1. Pump (or flow) sea water into a shallow, sealed pool.
  2. Close off the pool form the sea.
  3. Let it sit in a good hot tropical sun and evaporate for a while until half or 3/4 or so is gone.
  4. Pump out the very salty water, and boil the rest; refill the pool.

Usually, in a full production cycle, you have several pools at various stages of evaporation, and enough facilities to boil off one pool at a time.

In places where it rains frequently, you can cover the ponds with a tent (depending on size).

This method was popular from Roman times until the early 20th century around the Mediterranean Sea - France, Spain, Sicily, North Africa, Greece, Israel, Egypt.

This technique was used in the Carribbean Islands, when the Europeans colonized them. And San Francisco Bay and around the Great Salt Lake in Utah.

Avery Island, Louisiana, (home of McIlleney's famous Tobasco Sauce) has a major salt mine no longer in use (but available).

Grand Saline, Texas, and Sifto Mine in Goderich, Ontario have active salt mines. Fairport, OH has an active mine 2000 ft deep.


Inagua (Bahamas) has an active solar/evaporation system - has since the 1950s. Hmmm. Need to see what drives that...



There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI.

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  #40  
Old 06-29-2015, 04:52 PM
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There was a middle aged guy prowling the abandoned truckstop outside town. He wasn't looking through the wrecks, just the lot. When asked, he held up what looked like and ingot,"Just looking for wheel weights, gotta feed my weapons." He carried an old Colt auto in a battered thumb break holster, it's mag had a lead alloy that was like a hardball load. He had molds for his CAR-15 and swaged old .22LR cases for jackets. Captain later made a deal for him to load some of our brass. He also turned out to be quite a scavenger. Just a quick one, I'm looking at my "Homefront" notes for a dependent based campaign. The guy described was married to an staff officer and a part of the "officer's wives club" as a source of heavy work.
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  #41  
Old 06-29-2015, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unkated View Post
Also available for salt is evaporated sea water. This technique was used for centuries in warm coastal areas:
  1. Pump (or flow) sea water into a shallow, sealed pool.
  2. Close off the pool form the sea.
  3. Let it sit in a good hot tropical sun and evaporate for a while until half or 3/4 or so is gone.
  4. Pump out the very salty water, and boil the rest; refill the pool.

Usually, in a full production cycle, you have several pools at various stages of evaporation, and enough facilities to boil off one pool at a time.

In places where it rains frequently, you can cover the ponds with a tent (depending on size).

This method was popular from Roman times until the early 20th century around the Mediterranean Sea - France, Spain, Sicily, North Africa, Greece, Israel, Egypt.

This technique was used in the Carribbean Islands, when the Europeans colonized them. And San Francisco Bay and around the Great Salt Lake in Utah.

Avery Island, Louisiana, (home of McIlleney's famous Tobasco Sauce) has a major salt mine no longer in use (but available).

Grand Saline, Texas, and Sifto Mine in Goderich, Ontario have active salt mines. Fairport, OH has an active mine 2000 ft deep.


Inagua (Bahamas) has an active solar/evaporation system - has since the 1950s. Hmmm. Need to see what drives that...



There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI.

Uncle Ted
I had forgotten about this until his post but as Uncle Ted points out, the evaporation method is still a big contributor to salt production in the modern world. In fact one of the companies here in Australia is named Solar Salt as it produces much of its supply by the evaporation method.
I'd even seen facilities for this at Dampier and Port Hedland during one joint services exercise during the 1990s but as mentioned, I had forgot all about it.

Here in Western Australia, there are evaporative salt facilities at the towns of Port Hedland, Dampier, Roeburne, Onslow, Carnarvon and Shark Bay. About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote but certainly the workers at these facilities could set up new production sites in the remaining population centres on the coast.

Closer to the European & North American theatres of the Twilight War, Mexico is a large exporter of salt and when you consider that salt is a component required for the manufacture of caustic soda and of chlorine, there may be an adventure or three for characters sneaking into Mexico to either seize supplies of salt, seize the production facilities or to destroy them.
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  #42  
Old 06-30-2015, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
I had forgotten about this until his post but as Uncle Ted points out, the evaporation method is still a big contributor to salt production in the modern world. In fact one of the companies here in Australia is named Solar Salt as it produces much of its supply by the evaporation method.
I'd even seen facilities for this at Dampier and Port Hedland during one joint services exercise during the 1990s but as mentioned, I had forgot all about it.

Here in Western Australia, there are evaporative salt facilities at the towns of Port Hedland, Dampier, Roeburne, Onslow, Carnarvon and Shark Bay. About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote but certainly the workers at these facilities could set up new production sites in the remaining population centres on the coast.
My stepfather established and part-owns an evaporation method salt field in South Australia.
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  #43  
Old 06-30-2015, 09:37 AM
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Current economic viability is something that impacts the data we get about things like this, mineral and oil production. If it wasn't viable in 1980's then you wont find much information on it now...

Thats why I give my group some real freedom with whats possible when it comes to resources.

Ten guys and a truck can mine salt, in relative quantities, just fine in NY and a ton of other places. Texas has a ton of salt domes...
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  #44  
Old 06-30-2015, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
...About 90% of total salt production in Australia is for export sales so it's considered a significant industry here. Those locations aren't much help for Australia after the Twilight War as they are quite remote.
Wait. Are you suggesting that this area of Australia might become an outlaw wasteland, where biker gangs harry and terrorize a decreasing population of normal folks?

Might they be defended by small number of brave men behind bronze badges? Perhaps driving the last of the V-8 engined Police Interceptors?

Did I already see this movie?

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  #45  
Old 06-30-2015, 06:50 PM
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Wait. Are you suggesting that this area of Australia might become an outlaw wasteland, where biker gangs harry and terrorize a decreasing population of normal folks?

Might they be defended by small number of brave men behind bronze badges? Perhaps driving the last of the V-8 engined Police Interceptors?

Did I already see this movie?

Uncle Ted

You listen bronze. I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller! I'm the Nightrider, baby, and we ain't never comin' back!
In America, We call that place....Detroit.
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  #46  
Old 06-30-2015, 08:30 PM
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Ah you guys!
Both these replies made me laugh out loud


As for salt, you know what The Humungus would say...
"There has been too much violence. Too much pain. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me your pump, the oil, the salt and the whole compound, and I'll spare your lives. Just walk away and we'll give you a safe passageway in the wastelands. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror."

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  #47  
Old 07-02-2015, 02:41 AM
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That makes sense. I've seen ads for brass catchers on AR-15-type weapons, but what is nice for a hobbyist might not work in the field.
I have seen some of the aviation guys using them. My understating is that the only issues they may cause is when they get full they will jam the weapon, most that I have seen would hold at most 100 spent cases, less if they get jumbled up badly. I would guess they are good for two, maybe three magazines out of most rifles.
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  #48  
Old 07-04-2015, 03:11 PM
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I own an HK 93. I can tell you... you can reload that brass normally.

You "can" reload steel cased ammo. Its just harder on the equipment.

The only issue I see with reloading in a T2K enviornment is making the ammo to function reliably. Casings... no problems. Primers and actual FMJ type projectiles are much harder. Powder IDK it would seem that you would need good components.

I'd love to hear ideas on this.... :-)
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  #49  
Old 07-04-2015, 03:40 PM
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Photos from messing of 2d MARDIV in Poland. A German made mess kit issued to Sgt Jamie Carol. A wild pig, 'sniped' by a Marine from 2/6.
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  #50  
Old 07-04-2015, 10:17 PM
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I think the biggest problem with reloading military smallarms ammo at the cottage industry level, is something that we have mentioned on the forum before but doesn't seem to be been brought up again in this thread - removal/replacement of the primer from used cases.

Most military rifle ammo (including from Eastern Europe) has been using Berdan primers for pretty much all of the 20th century. Berdan primer cases have two small flash holes and a centreline anvil where the flash hole would be on Boxer primer ammo (Boxer priming is found on nearly all common civilian centrefire ammo made in the USA as well as places like Australia). Basically, Berdan primers are a simple cup whereas Boxer primers are a two piece design that incorporates an anvil. On both types, the priming compound is crushed between the firing pin and the anvil to cause ignition of the gunpowder.

Special tools are available to remove Berdan primers but they are not likely to be widespread in the warzones. Boxer primed ammo is relatively easy to deprime and requires little more than a hole punch of a width suitable for the flash hole.
Berdan priming was, as far as I can tell, chosen for most military forces around the world because Boxer primers were far more complex to manufacture in the 1800s. This would have been of obvious importance in the past but with mass production factories of the 1900s, it's less so now.
Examples of Berdan (on the left) and Boxer (on the right) primer ammunition


As mentioned, special tools are available to remove Berdan primers and some reloaders have even found methods to convert Berdan primed ammo to a Boxer primer. However there is a simple way to remove Berdan primers that requires tools no more complex than those used for removing Boxer primers and the principles of hydraulics. Basically, fill the case with water and use a suitable width rod to put pressure on the water thus causing the water to force the primer out.
Here's a short (8 mins) YouTube video showing a conversion of Berdan to Boxer ammo plus using the hydraulic technique to remove the Berdan primers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkKJfvMyuDg
and here's another vid (approx 10 mins) showing another person's method of removing the Berdan primers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNDgjcgofY
And this thread shows a dry method (i.e. no use of water) of removing the Berdan primer along with the main point of converting Berdan ammo to Boxer.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...l#.VZicpBuqpBc

I think all these methods would be "discovered" in the T2k world depending on a community's ability to make the required primers and while not something that many Players might care about, it does add an extra layer to the game that can be useful for fleshing out the world or even as seeds for adventure scenarios.
For a more informed report, the wiki article on centrefire ammo is a good start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition
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  #51  
Old 07-05-2015, 02:15 PM
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Another thing about ammo. Even though in the twilight war the war had raged for 3-4 years with BILLIONS of rounds fired.... how many BILLIONS of rounds were manufactured before it all stopped?

I would say that in places with constant conflict of minor military forces with relatively low number of fighter/shooters there would be enough to go around.

Now whether that ammo is easy to distribute is another story.

I think Stainless hit ti in the head with the above post though. I think a small but well run manufacturing plant (by game standards) would be able to produce reliable ammo for military use.
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  #52  
Old 01-04-2018, 11:42 AM
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Some insight as to what places like wojo are capable of https://youtu.be/0TMrunbZLJw
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  #53  
Old 01-05-2018, 08:23 PM
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Speaking of munitions/armaments, if the PCs gifted with Chemistry, Armorer, Combat Engineer, Mechanic, Metallurgy, and similar industrial skills would work for Wojo in exchange for ammo or discounted munition prices, how much could they possibly improve on the 10% failure rate? Perhaps building and operating a tempering oven to reduce cartridge case failures/extend case life. Or quality control on the propellant and primer lines to make misfires less likely? Or revamping the dies to ensue cases are not damaged by mis-shaping them? What about the effect a PC's Instruction skill might have on raising the quality co-efficient of the Wojo production line?
Also, on a distantly related note, would mine-detectors give scavengers an advantage in locating spent brass? If so, how much?
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  #54  
Old 01-05-2018, 08:29 PM
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Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases
Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads
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  #55  
Old 01-05-2018, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Re-reading this thread I realize that .45cultist's post (#36 in the thread) actually had mentioned the difficulties of removing Berdan primers and also a very quick (and cottage-industry) solution.
Obviously I wasn't paying attention when I made my post with the images of Berdan and Boxer primer cartridge cases
Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads
Visual aids always help.
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  #56  
Old 01-05-2018, 11:10 PM
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Just goes to show, it's worth going back and re-reading a lot of these threads
Soooo.....Thread necromancy can be a _good_ thing?? (says one of the most egregious sinners in that vein)
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  #57  
Old 01-06-2018, 10:18 AM
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Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage it.

And having said that, going back to one of your posts Wallshadow (#53 in this thread), I think mine detectors and even metal detectors of any type would be "must have" pieces of kit for scavengers for as long as people could get batteries to power them.
Many civilian metal detectors can easily locate coins, nails and the like so I would think they would have no trouble locating spent brass. In regards to game stats for 2nd/2.2 I would think that using one would make the Task Check one level of Difficulty easier.
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic View Post
Well, I don't particularly object to thread necromancy. Sometimes it can prove quite helpful for people because they hadn't seen the thread (or didn't read it properly like I did!) or because it brings in new info. I think we're pretty lucky here because this is one of the few forums I've been on that does not actively discourage itr.
I have all my favorite thread subscribed and if I find something that I feel belongs, it goes. Seems silly to keep making new threads, and having to keep back referencing old ones. Besides I'm really proud of the 'best that never was' thread' I started
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  #59  
Old 01-11-2018, 02:10 PM
unkated unkated is offline
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There are probably other minor sources of Salt that over the course of the 20th Century became less economically viable as a salt production location (certainly, that is what happened in central NY), but could serve again at a more localized level of production and distribution. If you live in Rochester, NY (in June 2000), it will be more possible to get salt from Syracuse, NY (up I-90 or along the Erie Canal - it's still there and still wet, mostly) than from Avery Island, LA, Grand Saline, Texas, or Detroit, MI.
Another salt resource located in W Virginia near the Ohio:

Making Salt From an Ancient Ocean Trapped Below the Appalachians

Apparently a big deal 1780s-1860, rebuilt post ACW and commercially viable until the 1950s. And able to be restarted in modern times, at least on a small scale. Complete with a river to aid in distribution.

Uncle Ted
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  #60  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:51 PM
swaghauler swaghauler is offline
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Originally Posted by unkated View Post
Another salt resource located in W Virginia near the Ohio:

Making Salt From an Ancient Ocean Trapped Below the Appalachians

Apparently a big deal 1780s-1860, rebuilt post ACW and commercially viable until the 1950s. And able to be restarted in modern times, at least on a small scale. Complete with a river to aid in distribution.

Uncle Ted
Been by there hauling in a front loader to First Energy. I spend most of my time hauling to the mine at Fair Harbor OH (just east of Cleveland). They provide almost ALL of the salt for our municipalities to get through winter.
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