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Old 05-12-2016, 03:16 PM
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Has anyone done anything on all the various US Air Forces by chance?

Only one I am aware of 3rd/16th and 17th but weren't there a dozen more or something?
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Old 05-12-2016, 04:35 PM
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Pre-war, or in 2000?
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Old 05-12-2016, 07:17 PM
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Post war / 2000ish
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:55 PM
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Has anyone done anything on all the various US Air Forces by chance?

Only one I am aware of 3rd/16th and 17th but weren't there a dozen more or something?
Anywhere the highway regulations were adhered to and a B-52, F-111, or B-1 can land, refuel, and rearm?

The revetments along the surviving portions of the Autobahn.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:25 PM
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Anywhere the highway regulations were adhered to and a B-52, F-111, or B-1 can land, refuel, and rearm?

The revetments along the surviving portions of the Autobahn.
That's true about the road lengths in Germany and Sweden, but not in the US.

There's a lot of those "revetments" in the ROK as well. (And mined MSRs. And sections of natural rock face in the mountains that are not natural. And...)
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:42 PM
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I remember some discussions of BUFFS using highways, but the consensus was that it would likely tear up and buckle the concrete when landing. Its a pretty heavy plane, BUT it can fit on many Interstate Highways. I don't recall anything on the B-1B. The FB-111As I think were approved for emergency landings on Interstates; not sure about using one as an airfield but I'm pretty sure an Interstate can handle the weight of one without buckling.

ROK highway system is interspaced with sections specially reinforced for use as airfields. I never saw anything on exactly what they were suppose to handle, but I suspect they were designed with C-141s in mind. They definitely were intended to handle F-4s.
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Old 05-14-2016, 09:58 PM
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Re: interstates as landing strips: I do know about a T-33(?) that is/was enshrined along a Pennsylvania interstate (I-79 at I-90; Swaghauler may back me up on this?) as a veterans' memorial. According to my dad, the plane emergency-landed on a training mission on the interstate highway shortly before it was opened in the '60s, the plane was pushed off to the side, and turned into a park.
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Old 05-14-2016, 10:16 PM
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I was thinking more along the lines of where all the different numbered Air Forces or wing would end up.

But the highway factoids were cool to know.
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Old 05-14-2016, 10:34 PM
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Would the Air Forces (as high-level formations) still exist? Might they be turned into rear-area/cantonment security groups by the NATO high command? Once the planes are grounded, you've got battalions of security troops and brigade-sized support-technical groups (wings), to take over rear-area security.

P.S. You've seen this, right? https://www.scribd.com/doc/37695/NAT...of-Battle-1989 p. 37 is US Air Force in 1989, one could extrapolate for 1997, and then 2000, I think.
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Old 05-14-2016, 10:48 PM
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I can't imagine too many planes being left in flyable condition anywhere. Many, many aircraft would have been destroyed through the war, either in the air or on the ground through nukes or conventional attack. The few that remained would suffer from lack of spare parts, and the last handful may not receive even the little maintenance that was possible as commanders put their limited resources towards maintaining the few vehicles they still have that could be actually used.
Seems likely that "wings" and "squadrons" are a thing of the past, at least in practice. The names may still exist, but that's about it.
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Old 05-14-2016, 11:47 PM
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Perhaps, but if you can say that brigade of technicians that used to support the Air Force were "here", then that might give you a good sized technical force to help rebuild with.

Imagine what you could do with 3000 technicians and electronics experts if you had say two nuclear power stations in your campaign that needed rebuilding. All the materials in the world wont help if you have no one to install them.

Hardware/parts can be replaced or rebuilt, someone with the skill the install it is something else.

I am of the belief that SKILL is going to be the most rare and hardest to find commodity in 2000/2001.
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Old 05-15-2016, 12:37 AM
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Except that 3,000 have already been either killed or reassigned (and then killed). They certainly won't be gathered up all in one spot doing nothing.
Support units probably took as much as a pasting in the war as combat units as the enemy sought to disrupt their opponents as much as possible.
Rear area units are generally somewhat less mobile than combat units, and so make much better nuke targets. They're also often located near transportation routes, power, food, and water supplies - all the things that enable them to do their job properly, but which are also important targets.
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Old 05-15-2016, 01:27 PM
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I was thinking more along the lines of where all the different numbered Air Forces or wing would end up.

But the highway factoids were cool to know.
Some Air National Guard units are co-located with civilian airports and may have survived if the civil target was spared. Additionally, the majority of Active Duty were probably killed and their equipment lost with the nuclear exchanges.

So, the proportion of Air National Guard and Reservists may be a higher percentage of those still capable of Service in T2K..... Same could be true among their naval counterparts.
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Old 05-15-2016, 01:31 PM
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But the highway factoids were cool to know.
It is why the landing gear of the B-52 and C-130 are built along the centerline of the hull. Other planes to, but I am a grunt not a zoomie.

U.S. Interstates are supposed to include mile long straight stretches without bridges, overhead structures, or things like power lines close to the path.

It was an Eisenhower administration stipulation in the 1950s when the nuclear fleet was intercontinental bombers. Even the rest stops are part of the plan.
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Old 05-15-2016, 06:28 PM
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Sure they might not be in the same unit but they would be in the same theater at least. No one, at the time when the units air power was all gone/destroyed/out of fuel or parts, would have the ability to move them far from where they were stationed at that time.

According to that orbat, there were like a dozen at LEAST numbered Air Forces. Where would they have been stationed at the start of the war at least?
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Old 05-15-2016, 06:31 PM
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Re: interstates as landing strips: I do know about a T-33(?) that is/was enshrined along a Pennsylvania interstate (I-79 at I-90; Swaghauler may back me up on this?) as a veterans' memorial. According to my dad, the plane emergency-landed on a training mission on the interstate highway shortly before it was opened in the '60s, the plane was pushed off to the side, and turned into a park.
It did indeed land on I90 but it was no accident. It was a test of I90 for use as an emergency runway. The plane was actually ferried into the "park" and "decommissioned" according to Airforce directive. That "park" (and everyone thinks it is one) is actually the Erie Veteran's Cemetery. My grampa is buried under the right wing with another "Battered Bastard of Bastogne."
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Old 05-15-2016, 06:35 PM
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You'd NEVER be able to perform B52 or B1/B2 landing and take-off operations on the interstates in PA. The standards of construction for roads and bridges had fallen so far below standards in the 90's that they would just fall through the roadway's asphalt and crash.

Fighters could land and take off though.
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:22 PM
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It did indeed land on I90 but it was no accident. It was a test of I90 for use as an emergency runway. The plane was actually ferried into the "park" and "decommissioned" according to Airforce directive. That "park" (and everyone thinks it is one) is actually the Erie Veteran's Cemetery. My grampa is buried under the right wing with another "Battered Bastard of Bastogne."
Oh, well, it was a good story when I was 10.
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:27 PM
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Sure they might not be in the same unit but they would be in the same theater at least. No one, at the time when the units air power was all gone/destroyed/out of fuel or parts, would have the ability to move them far from where they were stationed at that time.

According to that orbat, there were like a dozen at LEAST numbered Air Forces. Where would they have been stationed at the start of the war at least?
Per that OOB, there's three Air Forces in Europe, and two designated to follow. If one assumes that a numbered Air Force is command-equivalent to a field army, I doubt there'd be more than those 4 (1 in UK, 3 in Germany, 1 in Spain). One of those might have gone to Norway, then moved to Germany when that front was shut down. The one in Spain probably managed the Mediterranean air war. Of the Air Forces in Germany, perhaps one managed the southern front, and two for east?
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Old 05-16-2016, 01:08 PM
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Not sure about PA but the New York State Thruway was build to be used for emergency landings and takeoffs for bombers and fighters. I don't know if they were intended for operational loading (i.e. fully loaded with bombs and fuel) but there have been over 20 landings on the Thruway by various small planes over the years - they even have been charged for using the Thruway when then do so (in 1976 there was a 300 dollar fee charged for using the Thruway to take off)

Keep in mind that there are still operational planes in the US - but that most likely they are used very very sparingly due to fuel shortages - that's one reason my GM had the Texas module used as a (successful) MilGov invasion to get the refinery and the avgas its making

there is no way that the USAF has absolutely no fuel in the US -for one we know there are still operational refineries in CA, OK, and IL from various canon sources - however it is probably being conserved to absolute priority missions only - probably needing personal approval from the Joint Chiefs or the President for its use
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:00 PM
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there is no way that the USAF has absolutely no fuel in the US -for one we know there are still operational refineries in CA, OK, and IL from various canon sources - however it is probably being conserved to absolute priority missions only - probably needing personal approval from the Joint Chiefs or the President for its use
There may indeed be a small supply of fuel, but the big problem is getting it to where it's needed without burning it all on the way there.
Pre-war distribution networks are gone, even loading up a few trucks and hauling it isn't going to be all that effective with the lawless state of most of the country, not to mention damaged bridges, tunnels, flooding, etc.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:01 PM
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Has anyone done anything on all the various US Air Forces by chance?

Only one I am aware of 3rd/16th and 17th but weren't there a dozen more or something?

Check out Chico's site under Air Force Orbats..

https://sites.google.com/site/chico2...r-force-orbats
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:23 PM
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Not sure about PA but the New York State Thruway was build to be used for emergency landings and takeoffs for bombers and fighters. I don't know if they were intended for operational loading (i.e. fully loaded with bombs and fuel) but there have been over 20 landings on the Thruway by various small planes over the years - they even have been charged for using the Thruway when then do so (in 1976 there was a 300 dollar fee charged for using the Thruway to take off)

The relative small size of some countries and the limited number of major airports and airbases would make this necessary due to the fact that they would be likely targets, but I think less so in America. Although some major American roads were undoubtedly designed with this in mind, I don't think the use of the road system by the military for emergency take off and landings is much of an issue due to the fact that the country is literally littered with runways both military and civilian.

California for example probably has nearly as many major runways (and minor ones) as the whole of Western Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._in_California

The other states...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

...and then click on the individual state.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:28 PM
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Edwards is I think the runway capital of the world, dozens of them including a number of the worlds longest runways.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Air_Force_Base
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:12 PM
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I can't imagine too many planes being left in flyable condition anywhere.
The US will still have a fair amount aircraft in the CONUS for bomber inception duty, no matter how bad the air war in Europe gets theses units are not going to short of aircraft.

The USAF even after the Nuclear strikes is still going to have around 70 airbases and another further 80 air national guard stations. (The majority of them located near an civilian airport.) These high numbers are due to Soviets targeting missiles silos and their headquarters and supporting structure.

All of theses bases are likely to have JP-8 fuel storage. who is going to use it? its not like you can burn it in a small single engine aircraft.

While is possible that some of the bases would be overrun by enemy troops or abandoned after the strikes. Many are going to in use after the strikes.
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Old 05-16-2016, 10:36 PM
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All of theses bases are likely to have JP-8 fuel storage. who is going to use it? its not like you can burn it in a small single engine aircraft.
And how much of that fuel is going to be left after several years or warfare and two fronts on the north American continent? Not like it's being replenished is it?
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Old 05-17-2016, 06:57 AM
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The US will still have a fair amount aircraft in the CONUS for bomber inception duty, no matter how bad the air war in Europe gets theses units are not going to short of aircraft.

The USAF even after the Nuclear strikes is still going to have around 70 airbases and another further 80 air national guard stations. (The majority of them located near an civilian airport.) These high numbers are due to Soviets targeting missiles silos and their headquarters and supporting structure.

All of theses bases are likely to have JP-8 fuel storage. who is going to use it? its not like you can burn it in a small single engine aircraft.

While is possible that some of the bases would be overrun by enemy troops or abandoned after the strikes. Many are going to in use after the strikes.

I would agree that there will be many US aircraft in operational condition after the nuclear strikes. Considering the huge number of aircraft and helicopters that the US armed forces operated at this time that figure could be over one thousand operational aircraft worldwide. However the fuel to fly them and parts to keep them flying will be the problem. Pre-nuclear war stocks will dwindle between November 1997 and 2000, and we don't know if MilGov or CivGov is operating any refineries or has reactivated any factories to supply parts.
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Old 05-17-2016, 08:00 AM
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Well we know that MilGov has operating refineries - there are mentions of them in Oklahoma and Illinois as well in Howling Wilderness - also the fact that much of what oil is being refined is being used to make lubricants - which leads to an obvious conclusion that they have refineries in operation.

As for spare parts and operational aircraft - we know that there are planes still flying in Iran and Saudi Arabia and from what Frank Frey has said in Kenya as well - meaning there are enough spare parts in those far flung areas to keep planes in the air (not a lot but enough)

given we are talking about CONUS spare parts to keep some planes going is not going to be a big issue or techs who know how to keep planes going - its more a question of how much jet fuel they are still producing and what would they consider a good reason to use those planes

remember we aren't talking huge forces of planes here - its probably more like small squadrons (about the size of what is flying in Iran) most likely based in places like Colorado Springs, Sacramento, Oklahoma, etc.. - meaning Air Forces whose whole complement could be a couple or three dozen or so planes of mixed types covering a wide area (again look at what the US still has flying in the RDF for a guide) based near where the fuel is either being manufactured or near where there are semi-reliable guarded transport networks to get it there - which in this case would probably be the OK to CO area that MilGov is guarding, down the Mississippi from Cairo to Memphis, or from the Bakersfield oil fields and refineries to Sacramento

there is still fuel being made even now - but remember that same jet fuel can also be used for tanks and other military vehicles as well - and there isn't a big air threat right now to make them direct that fuel from ground forces

In my campaign world after MilGov got the refinery going down in Texas again and they started making all that avgas they sent aerial tankers to get fuel to their other bases and also rebased planes into the area - again its where the fuel is
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Old 05-17-2016, 08:57 AM
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And how much of that fuel is going to be left after several years or warfare and two fronts on the north American continent? Not like it's being replenished is it?
Fuel for Strategic Air Command units would be kept at close to maximum as possible as they have priority, no matter what is happening in other theaters.

Any other base would get fuel base on the duties they preform, and how much they had on hand at time of nuclear strikes would depend on

1. When was the fuel delivery and;
2. How much was delivered

So it’s a crap shoot

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However the fuel to fly them and parts to keep them flying will be the problem. Pre-nuclear war stocks will dwindle between November 1997 and 2000, and we don't know if MilGov or CivGov is operating any refineries or has reactivated any factories to supply parts.
The Major US Aviation Depots are:

Naval Aviation Depot North Island
Naval Aviation Depot Pensacola – Closed in 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Norfolk – Closed 1993
Naval Aviation Depot Cherry Point
Oklahoma City Air Logistics Complex, AFB Tinker
Warner Robins Air Logistics Complex, AFB Warner Robins
Ogden Air Logistics Complex, AFB Hill
309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group, Tucson, Arizona

However I think you’re going to see major cannibalization of aircraft parts. Since you have only a few aircraft flying you have a fair bit of airframes to pick from, I made a concept of salvage teams who recovery parts and weapons. I thinking since you have extra techs those that are not working on aircraft are going scavenging for parts and fuel or security duty somewhere

For fuel as stated above if unit are using an existing airbase you have fuel on hand which can be rationed, I also think you see fuel scavenging/recovery teams going around to airbases, airports ect.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:00 AM
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You'd NEVER be able to perform B52 or B1/B2 landing and take-off operations on the interstates in PA. The standards of construction for roads and bridges had fallen so far below standards in the 90's that they would just fall through the roadway's asphalt and crash.

Fighters could land and take off though.
In the 60's the highways had a foundation of concrete under asphalt, now it is just thicker asphalt. So old highways are GTG, new ones not so much.
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