YaATW2KT: The Second Mexican-American War

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You might have edited your post to remove it, but you did make the claim that when writing the sections on Mexico the author must have been suffering from a tequila fever dream. The tone certainly wasn't humorous and along with the rest of the comment, was quite insulting.

And again, you make claims based on supposition. When you state that "the Belgians would have most likely wanted to...", it is in no way a "fact". It never will be a fact. It is assumption. While the Belgian army might have been planning to get replacement APCs, there has never been a single source produced to indicate that the Belgian gendarmerie was going to get rid of their BDX APCs at the same time. By all accounts the gendarmerie got rid of their armoured vehicles because the end of the Cold War made them unnecessary for their future needs.

There were other mitigating factors that resulted in the gendarmerie being completely reformed in the 1990s but it's quite telling that although the public scandals that resulted in the shakeup occured in the middle of the 1980s, the gendarmerie still kept their rear-area and internal security duties until the 1990s. That being so, they would have most likely retained their wheeled armour rather than replace it with tracked armour as tracks usually make the general public feel a whole lot more nervous.

And I'll say it again, using the real world draw down that removed the need for these vehicles is in no way indicative of what would have happened to those vehicles if the Cold War had continued. The most significant premise of the game is that the Cold War did continue which also implies that the Belgians would be quite concerned with maintaining sufficient reserves of the older vehicles until every unit was completely outfitted with the replacement vehicles. It's also more than likely that they would have been interested in maintaining a decent war reserve.

The more likely outcome of any fleet upgrade would have been retaining the older vehicles as a war reserve. The Belgians still had stocks of the C.A.T.I. tank destroyer into the late 1960s, this was a WW2 Lloyd Carrier upgraded with a 90mm Mecar AT gun. They kept those Lloyd Carriers for 20 years since the end of WW2 even though they had obtained better vehicles.

Based on that fact, it could be realistically supposed that the AMX vehicles would likely be retained for a war reserve for a reasonable length of time before being disposed of. But I'm not going to try and claim my supposition on that matter as a "fact".

[Olefin]

And notice that I removed that comment

but left in this one - which I stand by

however holding onto a smaller area might be possible - but there is no way the US just sits there and lets them keep half of CA, over half of AZ and NM and all of Texas - sorry but that is completo sin sentido - i.e. complete nonsense - and the fact the the US controls the water is the big factor - I have a feeling the original authors never took the time to research that fact

doesnt take much research at all to see that holding San Diego, LA and Phoenix let alone smaller areas is impossible without access to the Colorado River - and all those access points with the exception of one- the one that feeds the All American Canal and gives water to the Imperial Valley (and recreated the Salton Sea in the process) - are in areas the US holds and never lost at any time during the Twilight War and afterward

you dont need the internet to know that - my in-laws have a very old set of encyclopedias from 1982 that spell that out talking about California and Arizona and where their water supplies come from

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

"It has always been about the belligerent & insulting manner in which the original authors have been criticized for being unrealistic when the person supplying that criticism is himself making some claims that fall into that category."

Sorry but no one is being either belligerent or insulting of the original authors.

And the claims that I am making are totally realistic

Fact - the Belgians were in the process of replacing their old APC's with new ones, many of them built in Belguim

Fact - the Mexican Army was operating a lot of French equipment as was trying to get more to modernize their army - and was buying mostly from the French so that it wouldnt strain their logistics system which already sucked

Fact - the Belgians would have most likely wanted to get rid of their older APC's now that they had new ones - which is indicated by the real world draw down in the 1990's

and also the canon - the three day stand in Texas by a bunch of military cadets, the fact that the School Brigade - with basically anti-aircraft weapons used against armor and the very nature of the Mexican Army who had never bought main battle tanks previously in the history of their armed forces except a few Stuarts that were used as recon armor and not tanks all add up to a Mexican military that would not have suddenly bought hundreds of tanks

and canon - the forces that were left in the US could not have stopped a Mexican Army as depicted in the fan canon sourcebook backed up by a Soviet Motor Rifle Division from taking a hell of a lot more territory unless every unit left in the US went to engage them - which THEY DID NOT - especially two armored brigades that for sure would have engaged them -
that alone shows that they could not have had that much heavy armor

in fact the canon saying that when the 197th did enter Texas it only did so to fight the Texian Legion and marauders tells you that the Mexicans didnt have any heavy armor of their own along for the ride

and my objection to canon comes down to the Mexicans being able to hold what they took for any length of time past 2000 considering the amount of new veteran US troops brought back to the country, considering that many of the areas they held would have had almost no water when the US cut off the supplies and that they were fighting a Civil War and had almost no logistical support of any kind

So am I objecting to the invasion itself - no - what I am objecting to is a very obviously flawed fan canon sourcebook that adds so much in the way of overall TOE to the Mexican Army that you would have to not just rewrite canon you would have to literally tear it up and ignore it - including Frank Chadwick's Mexican Army post in Challenge, the US Army Vehicle Guide and its dispositions of US forces after the invasion and Red Star Lone Star - in fact the only Mexican force with tanks is in City of Angels and its considered apocrypha mainly because of the sudden appearance of so much Russian equipment and almost no Mexican

if the Mexicans had built up a force with that many tanks the US would have only had one way to stop it - and basically that would have meant multiple nukes on both the US and Mexico in places like Texas, California, AZ and NM - and again thats a big time rewrite of canon history

You are looking at a Mexican Army with literally almost 1500 tanks plus Division Cuba against one armored division, one reforming mech division fitted with whatever tanks they could grab and two tank brigades that never even engaged the invasion - all low on gas and ammo - good luck stopping that short of Kansas or Oregon

"Fact - the Belgians were in the process of replacing their old APC's with new ones, many of them built in Belguim"

Belgium had a small defence budget and a small army that was committed to NATO. In fact almost the entire Belgian regular army was committed to NATO and its main function was to commit the I Belgian Corps to CENTAG in West Germany. Belgium had two reserve mechanised brigades to reinforce the I Belgian Corps and defend Belgian territory, and both brigades were equipped with the AMX VCI. Belgium shares a land border with Germany and if I Belgian Corps failed to whole the line then the Soviets would be marching on Belgium, and all the Belgian Army would have to defend Belgium would be the two reserve mechanised brigades and some territorial infantry battalions. But you believe Belgium would ignore its own very real defence needs and strip its army of over 500 APC's (AMX VCI and BDX) and sell them to Mexico for the price of second hand surplus.

Fact - the Mexican Army was operating a lot of French equipment as was trying to get more to modernize their army - and was buying mostly from the French so that it wouldnt strain their logistics system which already sucked.

This is basically what Paul Mulcahy proposed in his Mexican Army Sourcebook, but you dismissed it out of hand. You may not agree with the level of equipment that Mexico bought or licence built from France, but he was certainly on the right path and Mexico would need to beef up its army with tanks to take on U.S. forces. A few battalions of AMX-30's plus some Soviet tanks from Division Cuba would at least give the Mexicans a fighting chance against U.S. forces, and explain why they were able to defeat better armed U.S. forces and hold American territory for longer than they would be expected to do so once U.S. forces come after them.

In the 1980's Mexico bought the following from France. 120 ERC-90, 48 VCR-TT, 40 VBL including 8 with Milan anti-tank missiles, 32 MO-120 RT 120mm Mortars and 80 MILAN anti-tank missile. They also bought 6 FIROS -51 Self propelled MRL from Italy. This is a fairly moderate arms purchase but nonetheless upgraded Mexican forces, and all of these arms were bought new.

In the 1990's Mexico bought 401 Belgian AMX VCI including mortar carriers and ARV's that were modified as the DNC-1 in Mexico, 95 BDX that were designated as DNC-2 in Mexico, and also bought 28 Commando V-150 from the U.S. All of these were bought after the end of the Cold War and were bought second hand from surplus Belgian and U.S. stocks.

The rest.

GDW didn't write a perfect Orbat or history for the Twilight War, but it's still damn good considering the source material they had available in the 1980's. GDW listed U.S. divisions, brigades and armoured cavalry regiments only. There were some omissions in U.S. Army forces regards to brigades and battalions that were not roundout's, and this has been pointed out many times. Also GDW only lists tanks, there is little or no reference to the number of lighter armoured vehicles and artillery of all types, and there must have been a lot operated by U.S. forces.

If you don't like canon go and type up your own alternative version and post it up, but I like canon and will stick with it.

[Rainbow Six]

My issue here - which others have already mentioned - is the way that one person's opinions are being presented as facts.

Also if you have issues with something that another fan has put together (and, as far as I know has never claimed to be any sort of canon, fan or otherwise) I think there are far more constructive ways to do so than referring to it as 'very obviously flawed' (which again is an opinion, not a fact - other opinions may vary).

[Olefin]

The Mexican Army Sourcebook had a lot more than just a few battalions of AMX-30 tanks added to their TOE - sorry but it would have given them an overwhelming force that was way way above anything Mexico could have ever fielded and supported.

As for the 401 Belgian AMX VCI including mortar carriers and ARV's that were modified as the DNC-1 in Mexico and the 95 BDX that were designated as DNC-2 in Mexico were actually in their inventory for the canon - I definitely think very much that Belgium, who was modernizing with new APC's at the time, would have definitely sold a bunch of older APC's that didnt have a hope in hell to face top of the line Warsaw Pact armor to Mexico so that they could buy a lot more newer APC's that could - instead of them just sitting around depots gathering rust and not getting any more money for them to use for their defense budget

And that gives Mexico a heck of a lot of French APC's that support the canon as to what they were equipped with per canon - its not the right vehicle (Red Star Lone Star mentions the VAB instead of the AMX-VCI) but its definitely the right country for the source of those APC's

and if it would make everyone feel better they also could easily have gotten them from France instead - who still had a lot of them sitting around as well

And GDW actually does mention how well equipped the US units were with stuff other than tanks - you can see it in the US Army Vehicle Guide as to what the units were equipped with

For many of the US training divisions it shows what they would have had to face the Mexicans with - and frankly they had very little to stop any kind of armored attack, no matter how old the vehicles were

As for the canon - past mid-April of 2001 (i.e. HW timing) Marc is open to changes and improvements upon his approval- and there is where I plan to release new canon material as I already have done so for Africa - i.e. for events in May -September 2001 in California and elsewhere

so to answer your last point- yes I do plan on creating and releasing new canon material that hopefully will show a more logical approach to what would have really happened with the aftermath of the canon Mexican invasion - and i hope you do enjoy the new canon material when its released

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

My issue here - which others have already mentioned - is the way that one person's opinions are being presented as facts.

Also if you have issues with something that another fan has put together (and, as far as I know has never claimed to be any sort of canon, fan or otherwise) I think there are far more constructive ways to do so than referring to it as 'very obviously flawed' (which again is an opinion, not a fact - other opinions may vary).

Ok flawed by my meaning is so overpowering that there is no way the US forces in the canon could have stopped them with what they had and with the deployments in the canon - and if they had all those tanks where did they all go to? There is a very detailed order of battle for the Mexican forces in Texas in Red Star Lone Star - and not one single Mexican tank to be found anywhere - and GDW was very good at making sure that vehicles like tanks were accounted for as they were so rare.

If they had been there in their formations there would have been some survivors for sure- and would have been very easy for GDW to say "the Mexican unit in Laredo has two of the last surviving AMX-30 tanks from those they bought from France".

They werent there because the only tanks they ever operated were Stuarts because they never needed tanks.

And they werent plotting for years to invade the US - it happened almost on the spur of the moment per the canon. And given the very bad nature of the roads and rail system in Mexico in the mid-1990s' and how tight their military budget was if anything they would have spent the money on vehicles their army was built around - i.e. APC's and light armored cars which by the way their defense industry was ready to support and maintain

By the time they knew they were going to do it there was no time to prepare to fight the US by getting a lot of tanks and other vehicles - it was a come as you are kind of war - per the canon

If you want the Mexican Army Sourcebook then the canon would need some serious rewriting (moving the 194th and 197th to stop that huge amount of Mexican armor let alone Civgov having to cooperate with Milgov for sure to stop that kind of armored force instead of Civgov trying to not get units sent to the 5th Army) - versus not having it and it reads pretty well even given just the DNC-1 and DNC-2 additions to their army

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

My issue here - which others have already mentioned - is the way that one person's opinions are being presented as facts.

Also if you have issues with something that another fan has put together (and, as far as I know has never claimed to be any sort of canon, fan or otherwise) I think there are far more constructive ways to do so than referring to it as 'very obviously flawed' (which again is an opinion, not a fact - other opinions may vary).

and one last point - I am only saying its flawed as a way to say how canonically the Mexican Army was equipped - It does not agree with what Red Star Lone Star or Frank Chadwick's Challenge article have - which are the canon sources we have (and if you come up with a good reason for the Soviet armor the only other canon source being City of Angels)

[Rainbow Six]

I have no particular opinion on the fan produced Mexican Army sourcebook. I don't think I've ever done any more than skim through it and I certainly don't regard it as canon - quite the opposite, as I said, it's fan produced material, so is strictly non canon as far as I'm concerned. So as it's not canon in my opinion I really don't care if it contradicts Red Star, Lone Star or the Challenge article on the Mexican Army.

[Olefin]

keep in mind that my statements on the Mexican Army Sourcebook, as it currently stands, is only as a response to those who would use it to try to represent the canon status of the Mexican Army and the canon response of the US Army to the invasion

So let me state for the record as to what I think of it as a piece of stand alone fan canon and how you could extract info from it to support a canon campaign

As a piece of fan canon, that provides an alternate to the canon or canon material, it as an excellent piece of writing that can easily be used by those who want to have an alternate version of the canon Mexican invasion to both bring in many new vehicles and units for their campaign. One where the Mexican Army is much better equipped than it would have been per the canon dispositions as to size of the Army and what vehicles it was equipped with.

It also provides detailed information on both the history of the Mexican Army for those looking for a very good read on that history and also detailed information on small arms and other things you could encounter from a canonical Mexican unit.

Also in my opinion it adds an impressive amount of information on real life Mexican Army vehicles that were not presented in the canonical material but definitely would have been encountered in the US or Mexico by players using it to support the canon. As such it could easily be used to support and expand a canonical campaign if you ignore the anti-canonical vehicles and expansion to the Mexican Army TOE and units

And with rewriting to have it match the current released canon as to the size of the Mexican Army and what vehicles it would have had in the canon releases like Red Star Lone Star (i.e. where the Mexican Army lacked main battle tanks and thus had to bring in Soviet Division Cuba to be able to support them), in my opinion, it would be an excellent new canon release if the author wanted to go thru the effort and time to edit it as such and also corrected for photos and such that are not ok for releases for profit (versus fan canon) as I had to do with the original fan canon release for Africa

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

My issue here - which others have already mentioned - is the way that one person's opinions are being presented as facts.

This. Very much this.

Let's face it, guys. Like it or not, we're a small community. Schisms are particularly damaging. A lot of people who used to be fixtures here now show up here seldom or never. Have they just lost interest or have they been repulsed by the tone of some of the discussion here? It's hard to say, but I suspect a good proportion of our "lost" members fall into the latter category.

One person's T2KU need not be everyone's. Hubris is a big turn-off. Slagging someone else's work (canon or not) because you see things differently is not cool.

From our very own forum guidelines.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Keep It Civil

We can all agree to disagree but let's make sure to do so respectfully. No name-calling, sarcasm, or other childishness is appropriate or welcome here. If you are upset with someone and want them to know about it, send them a PM and try to work it out privately. If another member is really getting on your nerves, you can use the forum tools to place that person on your ignore list. We don't tolerate flame wars here.

Please don't attempt to incite internecine forum conflict with deliberately provocative and/or inflammatory posts. In interweb parlance, please don't be a troll.

Keep It Constructive

Folks post a lot of original T2K material here, most of it of the highest quality. Many contributors invite and welcome constructive criticism. If, however, they do not solicit feedback, then it's poor form to pipe in give it anyway. And please, don't post just to tear down the hard work of others. If you really don't like something that someone else has posted, and can't express this respectfully and with the intention of creating a constructive dialogue with the poster, then you should probably just keep it to yourself.

Thanks, and enjoy!

[Olefin]

Heard what you said Raellus and noted

as for those who arent posting here anymore - sorry but please dont make it sound like that is my responsibility - frankly if anyone loves and encourages discussion its me - as long as it discussion - however posts like this I dont see as as meeting the decorum of the board either

"Whoa whoa whoa... so let me get this right. Someone complains about the lack of proper research done by the original authors and then uses poor research himself to "correct" somebody's inventory for Mexico?"

That sort of violates both the Keep it Civil and Keep it Constructive precepts of the board.

and FYI the AMX-VCI that I was saying was in the Mexican Army inventory that I was getting hammered for - its also in the Mexican Sourcebook as them having it as well - i.e. I was agreeing there with what was in the Sourcebook as being accurate for what they actually had for the canon invasion

I love this board and the freedom of discussion it has - and if anyone really doesnt want it to descend into "in your face" facebook style comments its me - and if I made those then I apologize big time

[RN7]

Canon is what was published by GDW. Everything else is alternative fan fiction no matter how much you like or dislike canon or fan created alternative versions of Twilight 2000.

There are five main issues with the Mexican invasion of the American southwest.

1) Real world Mexican forces in the 1990's are not well armed enough to be capable of successfully invading and holding American territory, or defeating U.S. forces in the southwest even in the aftermath of a nuclear attack. I think everyone agrees with this.

2) The GDW sourcebooks do have large amount of information about the invasion, battles and conditions in the American southwest. However the sourcebooks do not give enough information about the combatants, particularly the Mexicans, to make it believable.

Red Star-Lone Star sourcebook has a Mexican orbat on page 12-13, but it's too vague in regards to the type of vehicles they are operating. There is a more information on pages 29-44 about the Soviets and the marauder groups in Texas.

City of Angels sourcebook goes into more detail on page 9 about Mexican forces in Los Angeles. There is more information on page 33-36 and on page 43. The Mexicans are exclusively armed with Soviet arms which has caused some debate about why the Mexicans are using Soviet equipment when they didn't in real life.

Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook (2nd edition is better) gives an orbat for Soviet Division Cuba. There is also some related information in the Satellite Down sourcebook

3) GDW gives more detail about U.S. forces in the southwest. American Combat Vehicle Handbook (US Army Vehicle Guide for 1st edition) are particularly useful for the southwest. But obviously there is not enough information. There is information about U.S. tanks and light tanks, and the pages on organisation and composition do list other vehicles such as IFV's, APC's, artillery, AD systems and light armed vehicles. But this does not show up in the unit history and current status, with maybe the exception of the Cadet Brigade and some unit descriptions for U.S. forces in other theatres in V2.

4) GDW wrote Twilight 2000 in the 1980's from the source material they had available. They did a very good job, but without access to the internet they obviously missed a lot of information. It's enjoyable to fill the gaps.

5) The Twilight War is the Cold War turned into a hot war and then into a nuclear war. To fill in the gaps it's best to keep Twilight 2000 to Cold War history and developments as closely as reasonably possible.


The main fan fiction alternative versions of the Twilight War related to the Mexican invasion of the American southwest are...

Mexican Army 1998-2000 by Frank Chadwick in Challenge Magazine
Mexican Army Sourcebook by Paul Mulcahy
California Dreaming by Orrin J. Ladd
South America Order of Battle posted on Chris Callaghan's Twilight 2000 page by unknown
US Order of Battle for 2003 by Steve Charlton

I don't have the Mexican Army 1998-2000 from Challenge Magazine. If anyone has it could they post it up.

[Olefin]

I have it -and there arent any tanks - ERC90 armored cars and VAB APC just like Lone Star Red Star

Before the war, the Mexican Army consisted
of 100,000 active troops and 60,000
reservists. Active forces comprised a
Presidential Guard Brigade, two
mechanized brigades, three armored
cavalry regiments and 36 regional
brigades.

The Presidential Guard Brigade
consisted of three infantry regiments.
Each mechanized brigade consisted of
two mechanized infantry regiments, one
armored recon regiment, and one selfpropelled
artillery grupo (battalion). The
armored cavalry regiments were
battalion-sized groups of armored cars
and infantry carried in wheeled armored
personnel carriers.

The 36 regional
brigades varied in strength, but their
average strength was one motorized
cavalry regiment, two infantry regiments,
and one battery of artillery. The
mechanized brigades and armored
cavalry regiments were numbered. (All
regiments were organized as a single battalion.)
The artillery for the regional
brigades were provided by detached batteries
of three numbered artillery
regiments.

Regional brigades themselves
were designated by the city or town that
constituted their peacetime station, and
their component regiments also carried
a variation of that as a designation. (For
example, the Monclova Brigade consisted
of the Monclova Cavalry, the 1st
and 2nd Monclova Infantry, and the 6th
Battery of the 2nd Artillery.)
Reservists were intended to bring
prewar units up to full strength and to
provide replacements. In actuality, they
were used to form additional infantry
regiments.

These regiments were referred
to as Activo regiments and
generally carried the designation of the
city or state from which they were
recruited. In many cases, these were
recruited from the same cities as the
peacetime stations of regional brigades,
in which case they assumed the next
available number for infantry regiments
from that region. For example, Brigada
Mexicali had two infantry regiments
before the war. An additional regiment
of reservists was raised from Mexicali
and designated the 30 Regimento Infanteria
Activo Mexicali. One additional
light artillery battalion of three batteries
was formed from reservists as well.

EQUIPMENT
Artillery: Each mechanized brigade had
6 MI09 SP 155mm howitzers and 12 MI08
105mm SP howitzers. All artillery batteries
in the regional brigades were
equipped with 105mm howitzers.
Mobilized reservists manned three batteries
of antique 75mm pack howitzers
that had seen duty with the 4th Army in
southeastern Texas.

Armored Vehicles: Armored cavalry
regiments and armored recon battalions
included a squadron of seventeen
ERC-90 armored cars and two squadrons
of infantry in VAB armored personnel
carriers (both of French manufacture).

Some motorized cavalry regiments included
a mixed squadron of VABs and
ERC90s (trucks and jeeps carried the
other squadrons of the regiment).
Mechanized infantry regimeqts included
forty VAB APCs.

Support Weapons: Each regiment included
eighteen 60mm mortars (6 per
company) and six jeep-mounted TOW
systems. However, many regiments of
regional brigades had not received TOW
by the outbreak of hostilities. A variety
of obsolete light antitank systems were
also in use, the most common being the
2.75" M9 Bazooka of World War I1 vintage.

A small quantity of modern light
AAA guns were also received prior to the
war, and 8 such guns were attached to
each of the three regular brigades. In the
Presidential Guard these were twin
30mm guns, while in the l a and 2a
brigades these were twin 20mm guns. In
all cases the guns were towed.

You want the rest - I have it - details the invasion forces and where they went and gives ORBAT - and again no tanks

And RN - frankly you can keep your opinions of whether or not I like fan canon or canon to yourself.

As for your post - you are the one calling canon into question - not me.

I could go thru your post and argue the details with you - but frankly its not worth the effort to do so.

I have better things to do with my time and my talents than waste it on this subject.

I was planning on writing at least one if not several modules on that area - but now not sure frankly that its worth one more minute of my time.

Have a good evening.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

Canon is what was published by GDW. Everything else is alternative fan fiction no matter how much you like or dislike canon or fan created alternative versions of Twilight 2000.

There are five main issues with the Mexican invasion of the American southwest.

1) Real world Mexican forces in the 1990's are not well armed enough to be capable of successfully invading and holding American territory, or defeating U.S. forces in the southwest even in the aftermath of a nuclear attack. I think everyone agrees with this.

2) The GDW sourcebooks do have large amount of information about the invasion, battles and conditions in the American southwest. However the sourcebooks do not give enough information about the combatants, particularly the Mexicans, to make it believable.

Red Star-Lone Star sourcebook has a Mexican orbat on page 12-13, but it's too vague in regards to the type of vehicles they are operating. There is a more information on pages 29-44 about the Soviets and the marauder groups in Texas.

City of Angels sourcebook goes into more detail on page 9 about Mexican forces in Los Angeles. There is more information on page 33-36 and on page 43. The Mexicans are exclusively armed with Soviet arms which has caused some debate about why the Mexicans are using Soviet equipment when they didn't in real life.

Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook (2nd edition is better) gives an orbat for Soviet Division Cuba. There is also some related information in the Satellite Down sourcebook

3) GDW gives more detail about U.S. forces in the southwest. American Combat Vehicle Handbook (US Army Vehicle Guide for 1st edition) are particularly useful for the southwest. But obviously there is not enough information. There is information about U.S. tanks and light tanks, and the pages on organisation and composition do list other vehicles such as IFV's, APC's, artillery, AD systems and light armed vehicles. But this does not show up in the unit history and current status, with maybe the exception of the Cadet Brigade and some unit descriptions for U.S. forces in other theatres in V2.

4) GDW wrote Twilight 2000 in the 1980's from the source material they had available. They did a very good job, but without access to the internet they obviously missed a lot of information. It's enjoyable to fill the gaps.

5) The Twilight War is the Cold War turned into a hot war and then into a nuclear war. To fill in the gaps it's best to keep Twilight 2000 to Cold War history and developments as closely as reasonably possible.


The main fan fiction alternative versions of the Twilight War related to the Mexican invasion of the American southwest are...

Mexican Army 1998-2000 by Frank Chadwick in Challenge Magazine
Mexican Army Sourcebook by Paul Mulcahy
California Dreaming by Orrin J. Ladd
South America Order of Battle posted on Chris Callaghan's Twilight 2000 page by unknown
US Order of Battle for 2003 by Steve Charlton

I don't have the Mexican Army 1998-2000 from Challenge Magazine. If anyone has it could they post it up.

FYI - if there ever was a post that basically complained about the canon or presented personal opinions as fact I think this one would qualify for that designation for sure.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I And RN - frankly you can keep your opinions of whether or not I like fan canon or canon to yourself.

As for your post - you are the one calling canon into question - not me.

I could go thru your post and argue the details with you - but frankly its not worth the effort to do so.

I have better things to do with my time and my talents than waste it on this subject.

I was planning on writing at least one if not several modules on that area - but now not sure frankly that its worth one more minute of my time.

Have a good evening.

Olefin I wasn't directing any criticism at you whatsoever, if I was I would have named or quoted you. I was trying to make the issues on this thread clearer to stop further bickering, and I wasn't criticising anyone.

I stated that "Canon is what was published by GDW. Everything else is alternative fan fiction no matter how much you like or dislike canon or fan created alternative versions of Twilight 2000" because that is what it is. It wasn't a jibe directed at you. If you dislike canon go and post an alternative version like I asked you in an earlier post.

I like debating canon not trying to change it, and if I didn't like debating it I wouldn't respond to your posts. In fact if you have read what I have said on many earlier posts on this thread you will find that I am in agreement with you on a number of things.

I think you probably took more than your fair share of criticism today on this topic, but then you do like to argue things don't you?

[mpipes]

Olefin,

Hope you continue contributing. Really want to see new material.

I've always seen Olefin's comments as very constructive and passionate. Never out and out arrogant. And I have always seen the comments as a valuable contribution to the fan base.

As for all the back biting, cattiness, and plain arrogance as to the sacredness of canon that many seem to have....we all need to KNOCK IT OFF!!

Take all the comments tweaking things for what it is....a person's views of their version.

[Olefin]

"I think you probably took more than your fair share of criticism today on this topic, but then you do like to argue things don't you?"

No actually I like to discuss things - but looks like discussion is the last thing this board wants.

And yes canon is what GDW publishes - which includes what I have had published as canon recently - and what I hope to get more of published one day if I can muster the interest to do so anymore.

And if you guys had actually read what I posted you would have seen that the canon I have the issue with is not the 2000 canon - its the 2300AD one.

And RN7 - there is more than enough material in the canon to show why the Mexican invasion succeeded. But you miss the point of what I was saying about the alternate fan canon

You dont need a huge increase in the Mexican Army to succeed in the invasion that occurred in 1998. They could have done it with what they had already - which includes either the real life AMX-VCI or the canon VAB

But what I am saying is that the chances of them holding it for any length of time especially with what is going on in Red Star Lone Star and HW and bringing to life the 300 year Mexican occupation of the American Southwest and southern California is completely unrealistic - meaning I agree with you totally

and if the board was one that actually encouraged discussion and not "my fair share of criticism" I might feel free to go on with this thread and others - but right now that is not the environment on this board.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by mpipes

Olefin,

Hope you continue contributing. Really want to see new material.

I've always seen Olefin's comments as very constructive and passionate. Never out and out arrogant. And I have always seen the comments as a valuable contribution to the fan base.

As for all the back biting, cattiness, and plain arrogance as to the sacredness of canon that many seem to have....we all need to KNOCK IT OFF!!

Take all the comments tweaking things for what it is....a person's views of their version.

Thank you very much for saying that. I definitely appreciate hearing that.

[Raellus]

All, if there are any more uncivil or destructive (as opposed to constructive) posts in this thread, it will be locked. Please, take a step back, a few deep breaths, and if you still feel agitated with other posters here, maybe avoid this thread. I don't think "winning" an argument is worth the diminution of this community.

Thank you.

The Mods

[Olefin]

Constructive post

I was thinking about where Mexico could get vehicles from as alternatives to the AMX-VCI and the BDX (assume the Belgians only sold them a few and then war clouds stopped any further transfers) and I was looking at my copy of the RDF

Not sure if these were mentioned before (and I cant see the Mexican Sourcebook at work so I apologize if they are in there already) but there is one place Mexico could get armored vehicles that would fit right in their force structure and they would be effective vehicles for an invasion - and could even get them after the war broke out

i.e. Brazil - EE-9 Cascavel and EE-11 Urutu - both are wheeled vehicles and both are described for both V1 and V2 (so that makes it easy to use them in the game) - and fits right in with the canon as well (i.e. wheeled APC and wheeled Armored Car) for either V1 or V2 (i.e. could be delivered pre-war or after war start even with the V2 Brazil Argentina war because it happens in 1998 if I remember right)

and Brazil might have even restarted production to sell them to the Chinese and then when China got nuked had vehicles ready to sell and no customer - and there is Mexico nearby

and there are countries in Latin America already operating them so there would even be Spanish language manuals and maintenance documents for them (versus trying to figure out a manual written in French tucked into an old AMX-VCI)

[Raellus]

I like that idea.

[Olefin]

I was remember what Red Star Lone Star said i.e. that the Mexicans were equipped almost universally with either wheeled APC's or wheeled armored cars - and those two vehicles immediately came to mind.

And you could easily use them elsewhere and just say that the units that were in Texas didnt have those vehicles issued to them - i.e. the Texas Mexican units are only a fraction of the Mexican Army not the whole thing after all

[Webstral]

Given the state of the game and the community, I think everyone welcomes enthusiasm. That much said, consistency in communication goes a long way towards setting expectations.

Originally Posted by Olefin

frankly if anyone loves and encourages discussion its me - as long as it discussion -

Originally Posted by Olefin

And RN - frankly you can keep your opinions of whether or not I like fan canon or canon to yourself.

Picking a story and sticking with it will help everyone involved make informed decisions about interacting with the other [few] remaining fans.

[Olefin]

There are lots of fan here and elsewhere still. Otherwise no one would have bought either my book or Raellus's book. I have been totally surprised and so has Marc by the strong positive reaction to them and the desire for more new releases.

And I got the hint - every post made in the past few hours has been totally to the forum guidelines and will continue to be that way.

[RN7]

Thought I'd have a go at what U.S. ground forces would be in the southwest in 2000

Part 1. Major U.S. Army and Marine units in the American southwest

The south-western theatre cover the U.S. states of Arizona, California, Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Nevada, Oklahoma, Texas and Utah, and also by default western Louisiana. Before the start of the Twilight War the following U.S. ground forces were based in this theatre.

1st Cavalry Division: Based in Texas, shipped to Europe in November 1996
2nd Armored Division: Reformed in Texas in 1995, shipped to November 1996
3rd Armored Division: Based in Texas, shipped to Europe October 1996
4th Infantry Division (Mechanized): Reformed in Colorado in 1996, shipped to Europe in October 1996
5th Infantry Division (Mechanised): Based in Louisiana, shipped to Europe December 1996
7th Infantry Division (Light): Based in California, shipped to Korea in January 1997
8th Infantry Division (Mechanized): Based in Colorado, shipped to Europe February 1997
6th Air Cavalry Combat Brigade: Based in Texas, shipped to Saudi Arabia in March 1997
75th Field Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
212th Field Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
214th Field Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
6th Air Defence Artillery Brigade. Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely still in Oklahoma
11th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
31st Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Based in Oklahoma, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
69th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Based in Texas, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
89th Military Police Brigade: Based in Texas, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
36th Engineer Brigade: Based in Texas, location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment: Based in Texas, shipped to Europe in November 1996 but left heavy equipment at Fort Bliss, Texas
10th Special Forces Group: Based in Colorado, location unknown but likely in Europe. Possibly some units still in Colorado
1st Marine Division: Based in California, shipped to Saudi Arabia in March 1997


During the Twilight War the following units were raised in the southwest.

44th Armored Division. National Guard division formed in Texas in February 1997, shipped to Europe in May 1997
49th Armored Division: All Texas National Guard division formed in Texas in November 1996. Oklahoma
40th Infantry Division (Mechanised) (two brigades only): All California National Guard division formed in Oregon in July 1996. California
91st Infantry Division (Light): Army Reserve division formed in California in July 1998. California
98th Infantry Division (Light) (2nd Brigade only): Army Reserve division formed in Oklahoma in July 1998. 2nd Brigade in Louisiana
69th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised): Kansas National Guard brigade attached to 35th Mechanised Division. Europe
256th Infantry Brigade (Mechanised): Louisiana National Guard brigade attached to 5th Mechanised Division. Europe
45th Infantry Brigade: Oklahoma National Guard brigade activated as part of 45th Infantry Division in Arkansas in January 1997. Korea
45th Field Artillery Brigade: Oklahoma National Guard brigade. Location unknown but likely still in Oklahoma
65th Field Artillery Brigade: Utah National Guard brigade. Location unknown but likely still in Utah
153rd Field Artillery Brigade: Arizona National Guard brigade: Location unknown but likely still in southwest
169th Field Artillery Brigade: Colorado National Guard brigade: Location unknown but likely still in Colorado
111th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: New Mexico National Guard brigade, location unknown but likely still in southwest
49th Military Police Brigade: California National Guard brigade formed in August 1996. California
221st Military Police Brigade: Army Reserve brigade formed in California in July 1996. California
225th Engineer Brigade: Louisiana National Guard brigade, location unknown but likely still in Louisiana
420th Engineer Brigade: Army Reserve brigade based in Texas. Location unknown but likely shipped to Europe
19th Special Forces Group: Utah National Guard. Location unknown but likely in Korea and Asia. Possibly some units still in southwest
Cadet Brigade: Formed in January 1998 from USAF academy in Colorado. Colorado
The School Brigade: Former army training unit. Formed in Texas in 1998. Oklahoma
4th Marine Division: Marine Reserve division based in Louisiana. Formed in October 1996 and shipped to Korea
6th Marine Division: Marine Reserve division based in California. Formed in November 1997 and shipped to Korea


During the Twilight War the following units were sent to the southwest

46th Infantry Division: National Guard division formed in Florida in March 1997. California
85th Infantry Division (Light) (1st Brigade only): Army Reserve division formed in Chicago in July 1998. Louisiana
95th Infantry Division (Light): Army Reserve division formed in Michigan in July 1998. Oklahoma
100th Infantry Division (Light): Army Reserve division formed in Kentucky in July 1998. Colorado


Major U.S. ground forces still in the American south-western theatre in 2000
49th Armored Division: Oklahoma
40th Infantry Division (Mechanised): California (two brigades)
46th Infantry Division: California
85th Infantry Division (Light): Louisiana (1st Brigade only)
91st Infantry Division (Light): California
95th Infantry Division (Light): Oklahoma
98th Infantry Division (Light): Louisiana (2nd Brigade only)
100th Infantry Division (Light): Colorado
10th Special Forces Group: Possibly some units in Colorado
19th Special Forces Group: Possibly some units in Utah
45th Field Artillery Brigade: Oklahoma
65th Field Artillery Brigade: Utah
153rd Field Artillery Brigade: Possibly in California/Nevada
169th Field Artillery Brigade: Colorado
6th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Oklahoma
111th Air Defence Artillery Brigade: Possibly in Colorado/New Mexico
49th Military Police Brigade: California
221st Military Police Brigade: California
225th Engineer Brigade: Louisiana
Cadet Brigade: Colorado
School Brigade: Oklahoma

[Olefin]

Good list for sure - but keep in mind many of those units had been very roughly handled especially the light infantry divisions that faced the Mexicans (and the 46th really didnt fare well either)- I see the US military forces that were in the Southwest by 2000 sort of like what the German Army was in 1945 - still a lot of divisions left but a lot of them were basically formations in name only - more groupings of survivors versus effective units

The 91st for instance - which started out per the US Army Vehicle Guide with 9 foot infantry battalions and three towed 105mm artillery battalions - had only 900 men left and was reduced to just the 3rd Brigade and the division was described as virtually annihilated - meaning morale was probably big time in the toilet

[mpipes]

One thing to keep in mind, none of the canon discusses airpower at all. Canon implies in several places that at least some aircraft were still active even in 2000. In 1998, there would still be considerable supplies of fuel for aircraft. Using Paul's suggestion for F-20As and other aircraft notations, as well as historic combat squadrons in 1990, I put at least 10 squadrons of F-20As, two squadrons of F-4Ds, one squadron of F-4E, a F-105 squadron (training), six F-16ADF squadrons, two squadrons of F-4Ss, one squadron of F-14s (training), one squadron of F-18Cs and F-18Es (training), three squadrons of F-100s, at least three squadrons of A-10s, an A-37 squadron (training), at least three squadrons of B-52s, two A-7Fs squadrons, a B-1A wing, and a B-2A wing as available.

And guess where at least two B61 nuclear weapons plus a couple of ALCMs went?

I see the Mexican invasion as a major blunder. The Mexican army was/is primarily a defensive force with logistics tied to moving supplies over limited distances....a couple of hundred miles at most. Even with a buildup, it would be defensive in orientation with limited logistic capability optimized for supply over short distances. They would be invading over a front hundreds of miles long in the face of several hundred American aircraft supported by AWACs. Even with the buildup of aircraft I contemplate, there are no AWACs, and the US gains air superiority fairly quickly. Logistics targets are heavily targeted by aircraft and nukes, and the offensive runs out of steam as their combat units run out of supplies and they have to garrison every town they capture.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's an interesting little bit of history that could be used to allow Soviet infiltration of Mexican society & government (and in real life maybe it was? There doesn't seem to be much info about it on the net).
There was modest sized Russian community living in Mexico beginning in the 1920s. All of the families involved were Russian jews escaping persecution and the original 50 families established a colony in Guadeloupe. The Mexican government had maintained fairly good relations with the USSR since that time and still has good relations with the Russian government of today.

It's possible that the early Soviet government infilitrated the community to keep a watch on them, how likely that was is obviously open to debate as is how effective such surveillance might have been.
What little I've read about them indicates that the wider world generally didn't pay the Russians in Mexico much, if any, attention. Particularly as they chose to locate themselves in a fairly isolated area that didn't attract non-Russian Mexicans until the late 1950s-early 1960s. However this isolation may have also rendered them as less threatening to the Communists as well maybe? I really haven't delved deeply into this so I'm simply speculating here.

During the Cold War era it's also possible that the Soviets monitored & infiltrated these Mexican Russians. Again, how likely that would have been and how much influence they might have tried to exercise over them is open to debate. But it could provide an opening in the history of Mexico for efforts to reconcile some of the more "far out" elements of T2k Mexican and Soviet history perhaps?

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

There was modest sized Russian community living in Mexico beginning in the 1920s. All of the families involved were Russian jews escaping persecution and the original 50 families established a colony in Guadeloupe.

8<---- Snipped ---->8

During the Cold War era it's also possible that the Soviets monitored & infiltrated these Mexican Russians. Again, how likely that would have been and how much influence they might have tried to exercise over them is open to debate. But it could provide an opening in the history of Mexico for efforts to reconcile some of the more "far out" elements of T2k Mexican and Soviet history perhaps?

It is an interesting theory but I grew up in an area which was the focus of Russian Jewish Immigration during the time frame in question (23000 in the years from 1969 -1989). There was serious HATRED of the USSR among Russian Jews I was friends with (even more so among their parents). If a red dawn scenario happened (The 14 year old me seriously considered the possibility) I expected them to fight harder than most natural born US citizens.


A couple of sleeper agents could have been snuck in of course, but as a whole I expect the USSR would get little sympathy among Russian Jews in North America

Edit
Another little tidbit from my childhood. I also knew quite a few Lithuanian immigrants to the us. Every year many of the boys 13 to 18 that I knew would go away to Lithuanian camp for 2 to 4 weeks in the summer. While part of it was about keeping the heritage strong they spent some time doing drills and training in what I can only describe as partisan preparation. Minor explosive training, sentry take-downs, paint ball to train cover teams, SEER training, etc. Yeah it was mostly fun, but there was some serious expectation among a few that if the balloon went up they were going to go back to fight for their homeland's freedom. Could be the background of a US NPC with some useful language skills that went special forces.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thanks for the insight Kato, some interesting info there particularly the part about Lithuanian Americans. Even without the PC/NPC going into USSF it still makes an interesting character background.

What you've mentioned is the same sort of thing that's being going on in Poland recently with their worries about Russia. Not that that's particularly useful for a T2k game (more useful for a 2013 game) but it's interesting to see the continuation of the Russians as a "bogieman".

So what chance do you think there would be for a successful Soviet infiltration of the Russian-Mexican population? Not that they probably need to do it anyway, the Soviet relationship with Mexico was always pretty friendly most of the time but it makes for some interesting speculation.


Edit: Just been reading about the assassination of Trotsky when he was living in Mexico, Stalin certainly seems to have spared no expense trying to get Trotsky killed. Apparently the NKVD set up three different networks of agents to accomplish the task in which they finally succeeded in August 1940. Notable was the use of Spanish communist Ramon Mercader. So I'm now wondering how extensive the Soviet spy network was in Mexico during the rest of the Cold War.