Recommissioned US Navy ships

[Legbreaker]

The Suez has been discussed a few times before and the consensus seems to be that it's closed. In the mid 50's a number of ships were sunk in the channel blocking it (on the order of Egyptian President Nasser) so we know it's quite possible.
A similar situation could be assumed in T2K - ships sunk, mines laid, and as at least one member of this forum has suggested, the area subjected to nukes.

With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

Could ships make better than 16 knots? Undoubtedly a few certainly could, however convoys are restricted to the slowest vessel. In WWII, this was as little as 3 knots. Something else to remember is the majority of TF34 was made up of "a hodge-podge collection of container ships, general cargo ships and tankers, excursion ships, and smaller vessels felt large enough to survive the crossing". Most of these ships would be lucky to have received much in the way of preventative maintenance since 1997 and it would seem unlikely any would be capable of their full theoretical speed. The John Hancock itself is likely to be suffering battle damage (as would any other military vessels).

6,000 troops is a lot. Even if the Tarawa was available and seaworthy, it's only rated to carry 1,900 marines. Additional ships would certainly be needed (which I propose would be mainly tankers to take advantage of the oil available in the Middle East for the possible voyage back to Germany). A tanker would be needed to accompany these ships too as the Cape of Good Hope route is about 1,000 miles further than the Tarawa's range.

With 33,730 cubic feet available for vehicles, and an M1 tank being approximately 2,500 cubic feet, only about a dozen tanks can fit. Given that restriction, the Omega orders to turn over all vehicles to the Germans and the need to feed and house 6,000 troops for a month, I just can't see any tanks going to Iran even in the unlikely event Tarawa was available.

One other piece of evidence against the Tarawa going to the Middle East is the list of US ships contained in the RDF Sourcebook. Note that the order of battle in that book is as of the 1st of January 2001, only shortly after the arrival of the reinforcements. Note also those reinforcements would have to be included in the OOB presented. There's a very good chance that the majority of the reinforcements would still be in the Bandar Abbas area (not really enough time to disburse them all to their new units).

[Olefin]

Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF

and missing ships doesnt mean anything - Frank said that the French had a naval squadron in the area and then left them out of the OOB - so leaving out US ships could also have been done

You can tell by looking at the US vehicle guide versus the RDF

24th Mech
July 1, 2000 - 2000 men, 9 M1A2
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 18 AFV

101st

July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 4 AH-64
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 4 AH-64, 12 UH-60

9th ID

July 1, 2000 - 1500 men, 12 LAV-75
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men, 16 AFV

82nd
July 1, 2000 -3000 men, 7 AFV
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 12 AFV

6th ACCB
July 1, 2000 - 600 men 12 AH-64
Jan 1, 2001 - 1100 men, 6 OH-58, 12 AH-64

1st Marine
July 1, 2000 - 3000 men, 6 M1
Jan 1, 2001 - 3000 men 16 AFV
3rd Marine
July 1, 2000 - 4000 men 5 M1
Jan 1, 2001 - 4000 men, 12 AFV

Add up the difference and what do you get

4000 men
35 AFV's
12 UH-60 helos
6 OH-58 helos

meaning 2000 men havent been accounted for yet in the formations or they took losses in men and AFV's between June and Jan and they were made up

So that makes a possible 3rd Armored Division transfer even more likely along with possibly the other 1000 men being assigned with the 18 helos

they had 5000 men and 54 AFV after all and that definitely would give the RDF the reinforcements seen above

and the remaining men and AFV's may not have arrived yet - its says the first of 6000 reinforcements arrived in Dec of 2000 - it doesnt say that they had all arrived

so there it is Leg - its canon that tanks and helos were brought from Europe to the RDF in the December 2000 reinforcement

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually Leg the RDF book proves that they had to load tanks and helos from Germany and bring them to the RDF

See my post here http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php...89&postcount=7 refuting this assumption.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

With regard to the 6,000 troops sent to Iran, this calculator http://www.searates.com/reference/portdistance shows us that at 16 knots, it will take roughly 4 weeks from Bremerhaven to Bandar Abbas via the Cape of Good hope. This works nicely for the December arrival in Iran and CENTCOM's "early Christmas present".

The transit of the Atlantic which was to take ten days (arriving 25th November) requires a speed of 15 knots if the English Channel was taken. Given the hostility of the French as detailed in Boomer, it's more likely TF34 would go up around the north of Scotland (as would the ships bound for the Middle East), thereby requiring a slightly faster pace to still make the planned 10 day transit.

If the Middle East ships were to take the Suez, at that speed they'd arrive way too early, around the 1st or second of December. Admittedly that still fits the December arrival, however I would expect to see that described as "early December" if it was the case.

Thanks for doing the leg work on those numbers, Leg An around the Cape trip would work fine. And in my last campaign I had the main Omega fleet sailing north of Scotland, too.

[Olefin]

if you look at A Rock in Troubled Waters you see the following

"USS Bigelow (Forest Sherman/HuICClass): Seven of
this class of warship were mothballed at Philadelphia. Work
began early in January 1997 to bring them into service. Only
by working overtime with a greatly swollen work force were
five of them combat-ready by Thanksgiving, 1998.Two were
destroyed in port; two others were subsequently lost at sea,
presumably to enemy submarines. Of the surviving three,
two are based at Norfolk (Mamley DD 940 and Blandy DD
943) and one (Bigelow) at Cape May. They rarely put to sea,
due to a lack of fuel. Their last mission was escorting the
TF34 convoy in for the final third of the journey to Norfolk."

Ok so we know that DD 931 Forrest Sherman was there, as was Mamley, Blandy and Bigelow. That would make Sherman as one of the ones lost.

So what would be the other three Forrest Shermans lost there - anyone have any idea what other of her class were in storage at Philadelphia or is this not match the historical record.

By the way Turner Joy is in Bremerton WA and was a museum ship so she may have been one of the old DD's lost in the final battle where the Virginia got so badly damaged.

[Olefin]

By the way have an interesting idea of a potential recommissioned submarine for the USN or perhaps the Iranians for the Twilight War

USS Trout (SS-566)

she was sold to the Iranians but her crew abandoned her before she could be delivered in 1979

she sat around for a long time and was shuttled around to various places but she was operational

you have to wonder if she was either sold to the Iranians when the war started or possibly if she was refitted at the same time as the Forrest Shermans

she is conventional not nuclear so fuel would be a concern - but she would be a potential operational US submarine that could be used for ops in places like the Caribbean or Mexico - or even as a way to get characters to either New England or New York for the modules set there

and she wouldnt be a big issue for canon - and old Tang class sub is not even remotely like having a second SSN in service

not even sure if they could find torpedoes for her unless they got some overseas since I am pretty sure she used only the older Mk27 and Mk 37 torpedoes and except for some converted to mines they would have all been sold long before 1995

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.

[James1978]

The Forest Sherman class consisted of 18 ships. The ones I've highlighted in RED below weren't stricken until 1990. They seem like the best candidates to have stayed in some form of mobilization reserve and preserved in T2Kverse. That's nine ships, plus a test ship conversion. Two more were stricken in 1988/1989.

The ships you listed work, except for Manly DD-940. She'd been stricken for almost 14 years and was likely in terrible material condition.

It's basically AH, so I see no reason not to say they were all at the Philadelphia Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility if that's what you wanted to do.

*************************************************

USS Forest Sherman DD-931
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS John Paul Jones DD-932
* Stricken 1985. Stored at Suisan Bay?

USS Barry DD-933
* Museum ship at Washington Navy Yard from 1984.

USS Decatur DD-936
* Stricken 1988. Converted into Self Defense Test Ship and served on West Coast 1993-2004.

USS Davis DD-937
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap.

USS Jonas Ingram DD-938
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX July 1988.

USS Manley DD-940
* Stricken 1983. Sold for scrap in 1992.

USS Du Pont DD-941
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap 1992.

USS Bigelow DD-942
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. SINKEX 2003.

USS Blandy DD-943
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Scrapped 1996.

USS Mullinnix DD-944
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1992.

USS Hull DD-945
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX 1998 off southern California.

USS Edson DD-946
* Stricken 1989. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS Somers DD-947
* Stricken 1988. SINKEX 1998 near Hawaii.

USS Morton DD-948
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrapping in 1992.

USS Parsons DD-949
* Stricken 1984. SINKEX 1989.

USS Richard S. Edwards DD-950
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1997.

USS Turner Joy DD-951
* Stricken 1990. Museum ship in Bremerton, WA since 1992.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.

My guess is that they are focused on keeping whatever survived the Twilight War and made it home running for as long as they can. Beyond that, getting some shipyards back into production and building coastal patrol ships for anti-piracy and fisheries protection seems like about all the USN will be up for. IOW, building small Coast Guard cutters, but painted haze gray instead of white.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by James1978

The Forest Sherman class consisted of 18 ships. The ones I've highlighted in RED below weren't stricken until 1990. They seem like the best candidates to have stayed in some form of mobilization reserve and preserved in T2Kverse. That's nine ships, plus a test ship conversion. Two more were stricken in 1988/1989.

The ships you listed work, except for Manly DD-940. She'd been stricken for almost 14 years and was likely in terrible material condition.

It's basically AH, so I see no reason not to say they were all at the Philadelphia Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility if that's what you wanted to do.

*************************************************

USS Forest Sherman DD-931
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS John Paul Jones DD-932
* Stricken 1985. Stored at Suisan Bay?

USS Barry DD-933
* Museum ship at Washington Navy Yard from 1984.

USS Decatur DD-936
* Stricken 1988. Converted into Self Defense Test Ship and served on West Coast 1993-2004.

USS Davis DD-937
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap.

USS Jonas Ingram DD-938
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX July 1988.

USS Manley DD-940
* Stricken 1983. Sold for scrap in 1992.

USS Du Pont DD-941
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap 1992.

USS Bigelow DD-942
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. SINKEX 2003.

USS Blandy DD-943
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrap, then repossessed by Navy when scrapper went bankrupt in 1992. Scrapped 1996.

USS Mullinnix DD-944
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1992.

USS Hull DD-945
* Stricken 1983. SINKEX 1998 off southern California.

USS Edson DD-946
* Stricken 1989. Stored at Philadelphia.

USS Somers DD-947
* Stricken 1988. SINKEX 1998 near Hawaii.

USS Morton DD-948
* Stricken 1990. Sold for scrapping in 1992.

USS Parsons DD-949
* Stricken 1984. SINKEX 1989.

USS Richard S. Edwards DD-950
* Stricken 1990. SINKEX 1997.

USS Turner Joy DD-951
* Stricken 1990. Museum ship in Bremerton, WA since 1992.

Thanks for the list!

Well lets see - so you have Manley (who was probably the hardest to restore if she had been laid up that long), Blandy and Bigelow as canon restored and still afloat in A Rock in Troubled Waters. Forrest Sherman and Edson in Philly in real life and possibly the two that got sunk in port.

Task Force 115 in canon had five weary destroyers, one of which was the Decatur, who was sunk in the battle with the Russian task force. One of the destroyers is sunk by a submarine, and per Troubled Waters two of the destroyers are sunk by subs so we can assume one of them is one of the destroyers put back into shape from Philly.

Decatur was a PACFLT ship so most likely she came from Forrest Shermans who where in storage on the West Coast or Hawaii and were put back into shape there as well.

Barry is definitely gone when Washington got nuked and Ingram and Parsons are gone in Sinkex long before the war.

I have Edwards as being on station at Kenya - was from notes that Frank Frey had posted on USN Task Force at Kenya and will be in the Kenya module I am working on that will include canon info from Frank Frey (at least as far as his notes go) on what USN ships were there

So that leaves three gone for sure without need for mention in the canon, five sunk in canon (between Satellite Down and Troubled Waters), four still afloat, and six that could be afloat or could be some of the other three destroyers mentioned in Satellite Down of which two were sunk in the fight with the Russian DD's and one was damaged by a sub but not at the final fight and possibly is sitting damaged at a West Coast base.

thanks again james

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

I've thought a lot about what a (probably non-canon) 2010ish US Navy would look like in the T2k setting; there's a lot of "display" or museum ships that are going to get pressed back into service for coastal security; it'll be a long time before the US can contemplate global power projection again, so I think about stuff like the USS Intrepid, the USS Alabama, other ships like that which they might attempt to get running again. Of course I have no idea what is involved; the very attempt might be laughably hard to the point that it would be easier to build new ships from scratch than to try to re-equip and re-float vessels like that.

Originally Posted by James1978

My guess is that they are focused on keeping whatever survived the Twilight War and made it home running for as long as they can. Beyond that, getting some shipyards back into production and building coastal patrol ships for anti-piracy and fisheries protection seems like about all the USN will be up for. IOW, building small Coast Guard cutters, but painted haze gray instead of white.

One thing that I noticed was missed in every discussion of what was hit and not hit regarding US shipbuilding (And refurbishment for that matter) capability is Bath Iron Works. Just about every Destroyer in US Navy Service, from the Spruance, the Tico's, and the Burke's was all built in this one shipyard tucked away on the Maine Coast. They have dry building slips for three 800' vessels (one of which is much longer than the others), and three more older fashioned wet slipways about the right size for Figs and possibly three more Burke's. If you go to Googlemaps, and look it up, you'll see one on a slip, one had just left the floating dry dock to be fitted out, and they are laying out plates for three more on the old fashioned slipways.

[Legbreaker]

I think it's worth reiterating that you don't have to destroy the shipyard itself to render it useless for building or even just repairing ships. Take out one or more of the power generation, transportation, raw materials, workforce, or even food stocks in the area and you render more than just one industry virtually useless. The trick is knowing exactly where to hit to cause the most, and longest lasting disruption.
It's not like a few hundred years ago when if you had a suitable beach, a nearby forest and a few dozen men with axes and you could turn out warships...

[Olefin]

The Bath Iron Works would be perfect for a mission similar to Last Submarine - but instead make it a commando mission to seize control of it from New America and then have MilGov move assets from Cape May and Norfolk to get the facility up and running again

Sure it would take a long time - but considering most of the remaining USN ships would be able to fit in a facility like that it would be perfect for that use.

You could even use it in combo with the Corpus Christi - i.e. she is hooked up to provide power while they get the power generating station going again at the Bath Iron Works.

And that works great with the canon of MilGov working to repair places that would be of benefit for military and also getting food - i.e. if you can repair DD's there you can also repair fishing boats and other ships.

You arent going to get all of Maine on its feet again - just the area around the Iron Works - a la what they are doing in A Rock in Troubled Waters for instance - its not all of NJ but just one small area that provides a big benefit for both the state and MilGov - i.e. the naval facilities in that area that also can be used to base fishing vessels out of.

[Webstral]

I have done a bit of work on the Maine coast--all non-canon, of course, but folded into the existing body of work so as to create as few wrinkles as possible. Others are free to use as much or as little of Poseidon’s Rifles as they see fit. In Poseidon’s Rifles, Bath Iron Works is firmly under the control of First District, USCG. Shortages of everything have prevented the facility from doing much besides repairing USCGC Gallatin and whatever shipping Milgov sends up to the District. The foundation of the food situation is fishing. Under the protective watch of Coast Guard cutters, fishing fleets from the District exploit the waters off coastal Maine and as far away as the Grand Banks. A truce that is much warmer than Milgov would like marks the relationship between the District and the United Brotherhood of Fishermen (UBF)(Last Submarine) up through 4/1/01. By the end of 2000, survivors in the District cantonments are growing their own food just like everybody else; but the fishing got a relatively high population through that first winter and growing season. As a result, about 85% of the surviving population of Maine lives on a narrow coastal strip under the protection of the United States Coast Guard.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

One thing that I noticed was missed in every discussion of what was hit and not hit regarding US shipbuilding (And refurbishment for that matter) capability is Bath Iron Works. Just about every Destroyer in US Navy Service, from the Spruance, the Tico's, and the Burke's was all built in this one shipyard tucked away on the Maine Coast. They have dry building slips for three 800' vessels (one of which is much longer than the others), and three more older fashioned wet slipways about the right size for Figs and possibly three more Burke's. If you go to Googlemaps, and look it up, you'll see one on a slip, one had just left the floating dry dock to be fitted out, and they are laying out plates for three more on the old fashioned slipways.

Nitpick.

The entire Spruance and Kidd class were built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS.

Bath Iron Works and Ingalls Shipbuilding split the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke class.

The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates were split between Bath Iron Works, Todd Pacific - San Pedro, and Todd Pacific - Seattle.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I have done a bit of work on the Maine coast--all non-canon, of course, but folded into the existing body of work so as to create as few wrinkles as possible. Others are free to use as much or as little of Poseidon’s Rifles as they see fit. In Poseidon’s Rifles, Bath Iron Works is firmly under the control of First District, USCG. Shortages of everything have prevented the facility from doing much besides repairing USCGC Gallatin and whatever shipping Milgov sends up to the District. The foundation of the food situation is fishing. Under the protective watch of Coast Guard cutters, fishing fleets from the District exploit the waters off coastal Maine and as far away as the Grand Banks. A truce that is much warmer than Milgov would like marks the relationship between the District and the United Brotherhood of Fishermen (UBF)(Last Submarine) up through 4/1/01. By the end of 2000, survivors in the District cantonments are growing their own food just like everybody else; but the fishing got a relatively high population through that first winter and growing season. As a result, about 85% of the surviving population of Maine lives on a narrow coastal strip under the protection of the United States Coast Guard.

Do you have Poseidon's Rifles posted anywhere? Love to look at it!

[Webstral]

It's around here somewhere. When I have some time, I'll either find it here or assemble the requisite materials off my hard drive.

In Poseidon’s Rifles, Bath Iron Works is engaged in much more mundane work than producing new warships. Fishing vessels are the lifeblood of First District. Also, the machine shops at BIW are engaged in producing arms, armaments, and spare parts. Ditto the facilities at Portsmouth, NH. Towards the end of 2000, the various surviving governments in the region began talking about stepping up trade and attempting to coordinate their industrial efforts. If they can make this happen, then there is every reason to believe that the defense forces of northern New England will be able to equip themselves with enough machine guns, mortars, and ammunition to defeat the emerging threat of marauder super-gangs called hordes. If everyone is very lucky, they will realize that scattered among the various cantonments of New England are enough people with the right kinds of experience to operate the Maine Yankee nuclear power plant. Unfortunately, many of the surviving specialists worked at Vermont Yankee and now reside in the United Communities of Southern Vermont under the leadership of the Black Watch. The Black Watch is not especially cooperative. They have bad blood with the Vermont government at Burlington, the MPs at Westover AFB, the New Hampshire government at Manchester, and the Vikings who effectively run Nashua. This is a shame, because the benefits to all of bringing Maine Yankee back on-line at even a fraction of its potential would be a huge boon to the whole region.

[James1978]

Originally Posted by Olefin

The Bath Iron Works would be perfect for a mission similar to Last Submarine - but instead make it a commando mission to seize control of it from New America and then have MilGov move assets from Cape May and Norfolk to get the facility up and running again

Sure it would take a long time - but considering most of the remaining USN ships would be able to fit in a facility like that it would be perfect for that use.

You could even use it in combo with the Corpus Christi - i.e. she is hooked up to provide power while they get the power generating station going again at the Bath Iron Works.

And that works great with the canon of MilGov working to repair places that would be of benefit for military and also getting food - i.e. if you can repair DD's there you can also repair fishing boats and other ships.

You arent going to get all of Maine on its feet again - just the area around the Iron Works - a la what they are doing in A Rock in Troubled Waters for instance - its not all of NJ but just one small area that provides a big benefit for both the state and MilGov - i.e. the naval facilities in that area that also can be used to base fishing vessels out of.

A minor wrinkle for anyone who is interested. There was no dry dock at Bath Iron Works in Bath in T2K. Until 2001, there was a subsidiary yard in Portland, ME where the company had a dry dock. They installed the sonar domes at this facility.

The floating dry dock at Bath seen on GoogleEarth wasn't in place until 2001.

So if you want a dry dock, you also have to secure Portland.

[Panther Al]

Originally Posted by James1978

Nitpick.

The entire Spruance and Kidd class were built at Ingalls Shipbuilding in Pascagoula, MS.

Bath Iron Works and Ingalls Shipbuilding split the Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke class.

The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates were split between Bath Iron Works, Todd Pacific - San Pedro, and Todd Pacific - Seattle.

Fair enough. I figured since they did work on the Tico's they made some Spruance's as well.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by James1978

A minor wrinkle for anyone who is interested. There was no dry dock at Bath Iron Works in Bath in T2K. Until 2001, there was a subsidiary yard in Portland, ME where the company had a dry dock. They installed the sonar domes at this facility.

The floating dry dock at Bath seen on GoogleEarth wasn't in place until 2001.

So if you want a dry dock, you also have to secure Portland.

First District owns Bath, Portland, and Portsmouth from mid-1998 onward. One can see why Milgov, though royally pissed by RADM MacDowell's little coup de main, wants to stay on decent terms with the District. Aside from 43rd MP Brigade and possibly the Coast Guard command under Holsgirder in Narragansett Bay (RI), Milgov has few friends in New England. The state governments of Vermont at Burlington and New Hampshire at Manchester are in the Civgov camp, though this doesn't do much for Civgov. The Black Watch in southern Vermont is on bad terms with the 43rd, and therefore with Milgov. The City and Shire of Keene, NH is nominally in support of Civgov. The Isolationists in Providence want nothing to do with Milgov. The UBF is nominally in support of Civgov. The remaining surviving governments in Massachusetts have little to offer Milgov except food and shelter for small groups. The megapunks in Boston and southern New Hampshire obviously are no help to Milgov. The rising Blood Cross in northern Vermont, northern New Hampshire, and inland Maine also are a problem. In fact, one of Milgov's fears is that Civgov will find a way to unite Burlington, Manchester, the Cape and Islands (which are the stronghold of the UBF) and overpower First District, thus depriving Milgov of important assets. Anxiety about this very unlikely event has kept Milgov supporting the District at a higher level than might otherwise be expected. BIW factors strongly in a lot of peoples' thinking in Poseidon's Rifles.

[Legbreaker]

They're all good points there Web. I can't recall Milgov or Civgov having any significant naval or other assets anywhere along the east coast in any of the books. Most of the areas covered seem to imply there's a small presence, but struggling to survive against the overwhelming (comparatively) forces independent groups are fielding with little more than fishing and recreational boats they've thrown a few light weapons on.
There's certainly no frigates, corvettes, or even mine sweepers, etc anywhere to be found that I can recall, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that a) they're inactive/ineffective for some reason, or b) operating in areas not covered in the books. Option b doesn't seem too likely though given the books appear (to a non-American) to cover the more important areas.

[Olefin]

A Rock in Troubled Waters shows the MilGov assets that are at Cape May and also touches somewhat on Norfolk

Cape May has a Forrest Sherman DD and a CG WMEC that are both active and fully armed, Norfolk has two Forrest Sherman DD's - plus other ships most of which are the smaller ones as you detailed. There is also a tanker tied to the dock at Cape May that is empty. You also have to add in John Hancock tht is also at Norfolk.

Its a canon article out of Challenge Magazine - I have it at home and if you are interested I can put together the pages and post them here

I do have this one quote from the article that I posted earlier - the article took place early in 2001 and mentioned Bigelow shelling casinos at Atlantic City that had marauders in them and destroying three of them. It also mentioned that if the gold was recovered in Armies of the Night that Bigelow would be the ship that recovers it along with other forces at Cape May.

USS Bigelow (Forest Sherman/HuICClass): Seven of
this class of warship were mothballed at Philadelphia. Work
began early in January 1997 to bring them into service. Only
by working overtime with a greatly swollen work force were
five of them combat-ready by Thanksgiving, 1998.Two were
destroyed in port; two others were subsequently lost at sea,
presumably to enemy submarines. Of the surviving three,
two are based at Norfolk (Mamley DD 940 and Blandy DD
943) and one (Bigelow) at Cape May. They rarely put to sea,
due to a lack of fuel. Their last mission was escorting the
TF34 convoy in for the final third of the journey to Norfolk."

There are two other articles, Inland Waterway and Rifle River that also detail ships on the East Coast but I dont have them yet. From what I understand Rifle River has a CG WMEC as one of the ships.

There is also a reference in Troubled Waters to a dozen ships surviving after the Norfolk nuking that were in hiding in the Chesapeake Bay region

So that would give MilGov at least three DD, one DDG, and one corvette sized CG ship under their control (as well as the SSN Corpus Christi) on the East Coast that have fuel and armaments (but fuel is limited) and are in commission and the Coast Guard having at least one over corvette sized CG ship as well under independent control that has fuel and is in commission between Going Home, Last Submarine, Rifle River and A Rock in Troubled Waters plus a variety of smaller ships

oh and there is a sailing brig as well at Cape May that is pretty good sized and very well armed as well - she is actually used like a coastal defense ship

(from what I understand the articles in Challenge Magazine are considered canon sources - is that correct?)

[Rainbow Six]

From memory I think the only Naval assets listed on the East Coast of the US are in Challenge - a small force (maybe half a dozen or so ships?) in the New Jersey area (Cape May?) and the Coastguard enclave covered in Rifle River.

I could be wrong but I don't think anything else is mentioned?

Edit - just saw Olefin's post, which covers this in much more detail!

[Olefin]

they mention that two Forrest Sherman DD's are at Norfolk, one is at Cape May and that the CG WMEC at Cape May is going back to Norfolk soon

The DDG - i.e. John Hancock is from Going Home and the assumption is that she stayed at Norfolk once she got there

The sub - Corpus Christi - same thing after the submarine trilogy is over

and its bigger than a half dozen ships - they have various LCM's and some patrol boats as well that have been turned into monitors

They also have a large sailing ship that has had a turret mounted on her with a good sized gun and other armaments that is basically a coastal patrol/defense ship - about the size of a corvette or small destroyer if I remember right

I will post the description tonight when I get home - dont have that info with me right now

Rifle River has one WMEC as well but the way it is described the Coast Guard is only nominally answering to MilGov - it also occurs later than A Rock in Troubled Waters which occurs earlier in 2001

I have never seen Inland Waterway - not sure if there are any ships mentioned there at all - only seen the cover art for the article which shows what looks to be an armed USN patrol boat

I dont think there are any other canon articles that would detail ships

by the way it does say a dozen ships survived the nuking of Norfolk - so that would mean that at least a dozen USN ships were intact and active post nuke of Norfolk on the East Coast

and considering the Forrest Shermans werent ready till Thanksgiving 1998 that doesnt count those ships

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

There's certainly no frigates, corvettes, or even mine sweepers, etc anywhere to be found that I can recall, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just that a) they're inactive/ineffective for some reason, or b) operating in areas not covered in the books. Option b doesn't seem too likely though given the books appear (to a non-American) to cover the more important areas.

I've followed basically this philosophy. At the beginning of 2000, the District has only three combatants worth mentioning: USCGC Gallatin and two Bainbridge Island-class ships. The former packs a 76mm gun, while the latter bring 25mm guns to the fight. Frigates they are not. Well, I suppose Gallatin doubles as a frigate in a pinch. I haven't bothered to try to account for any of the other shipping that might have been operating out of northern coastal New England when the bombs fell. I've always operated on the principal that Milgov sent those assets elsewhere. We know, for instance, that some light units were sent to Europe in 1998 (I think). Whatever escort-type ships were operating out of the area can have gone that way.

[rcaf_777]

Landing Ship Tank Still Active

Here what I could dig up on LST still in use by the out break of the war

De Soto Country Class

In the late 1950s, many of LSTs of the De Soto County-class were constructed. These were an improved version over earlier WWII LSTs, with a high degree of habitability for the crew and embarked troops. Considered the "ultimate" design attainable with the traditional LST bow door configuration, they were capable of 17.5 knots (32.4 km/h).

USS Summit County (LST-1146) – Venezuela
USS Wood County (LST-1178) – US Reserve Fleet Beaumont TX
USS Litchfield County (LST-901) – Panama Commercial Fleet
HMS Stalker (LST-3515) Portsmouth UK
USS LST-325 – Greece
USS Buncombe County (LST-510) – US
USS LST-393 – US Commercial Fleet Sand Products Inc
USS Maricopa County (LST-938) – Vietnam
USS Clarke County (LST-601) – Indonesia
USS Clearwater County (LST-602) - Mexico
USS Dorchester (APB-46) – US Commercial Fishing Fleet Settle
USS Dukes County (LST-735) – Taiwan
USS Hampshire County (LST-819) – Greece Commercial Fleet
USS Iredell County (LST-839) – Indonesia
USS Iron County (LST-840) – Tawian
USS Lincoln County (LST-898) – Thailand
USS Pender County (LST-1080) – South Korea
USS Sedgwick County (LST-1123) - Malaysia

The Philippine Navy received 20+ units of the LST Mk.2 starting in the late 1940s, and still have 7 units on their active list as of 2010. This includes BRP Laguna (LT-501) (ex-USS LST-230), BRP Zamboanga del Sur (LT-86) (ex-USS Marion County (LST-975), BRP Kalinga Apayao (LT-516) (ex-USS Garrett County (LST-786) and BRP Benguet (LT-507) (ex-USS Daviess County (LST-692). Many of these defected to the Philippine Navy after the far of South Vietnam.

Newport Class

Twenty ships of the Newport tank landing ship class were built to replace the traditional bow door design LST. The Newport class has higher speeds and trimmer lines than the LSTs of World War II. The vessels have two huge derricks used to extend and retract a bow ramp. The 110-foot (34 m) ramp has a 75-ton capacity. The Newport class is the first amphibious ship to be fitted with an internal side propulsion unit located below the waterline near the bow. The bow thruster allows the bow to be pushed from side to side while the stern remains nearly stationary. This class of LST also has a stern gate. It allows them to load and launch amphibious assault vehicles, and permits stern gate matings with Landing Craft Utility (LCU) units

USS Newport LST-1179 Sold to Mexico in 2001 form inactive reserve
USS Manitowoc LST-1180 Sold to Tawian in 2001 form inactive reserve
USS Sumter LST-1181 Sold to Tawian in 2000 form inactive reserve
USS Fresno LST-1182 Sold to Peru in 2009 from inactive reserve
USS Peoria LST-1183 Sunk, durring Fleet training exercise in 2004
USS Frederick LST-1184 Sold to Mexico in 2002 from inactive reserve
USS Schenectady LST-1185 Sunk durring Fleet training exercise in2004
USS Cayuga LST-1186 Sold to Brazil in 2001 from inactive reserve
USS Tuscaloosa LST-1187 Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility Pearl Harbor
USS Saginaw LST-1188 Sold to Australia in 1994, in refit 95-96
USS San Bernardino LST-1189 Sold to Chile in 1995
USS Boulder LST-1190 Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility Philadelphia, PA
USS Racine LST-1191 Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility Pearl Harbor
USS Spartanburg County LST-1192 Sold to Malaysia in 1995
USS Fairfax County LST-1193 Sold to Australia in 1994, in refit 95-96
USS La Moure County LST-1194 Sunk durring Fleet training exercise in 2001
USS Barbour County LST-1195 Disposed of in support of Fleet training exercise, 2004
USS Harlan County LST-1196 Sold to Span in 2000 from inactive reserve
USS Barnstable County LST-1197 Sold to Span in 1994
USS Bristol County LST-1198 Sold to Morocco in 1994

[Olefin]

by the way one thing I have been looking at is submarines that could possibly be operational for the US - but not nuclear ones

I can think of three off the top of my head

USS Tusk SS-426 and USS Cutlass SS-478 - both are still in commission in Taiwan - both are Balao class submarines and both have operational torpedo tubes - I could see the US buying them back in say 1998 or 1999 and having them rejoin the Pacific Fleet as subs operating around Korea and possibly eventually making their way to the US

I would have those two as the best prospect for operational US subs to join the Corpus Christi along with USS Dolphin AGSS-555

there are others as well

USS Pampanito SS-383 - i.e. the sub they used for Down Periscope - she is still operational at least for surface ops, has an operational periscope, engine and even one operational torpedo tube - she would need new screws but there are museum subs that have screws she could use - and the mod to her hull for tourist access was relatively minor and should permit shallow dives

Dolphin AGSS-555 - she was fully operational in the timeline and was a deep sea research sub that had one external torpedo tube that was used for deep sea testing - but could be used as a regular tube - she would have needed to have a snorkel added to operate her diesels underwater but she could be used as is with just the batteries for diving if she was just loitering - her one tube had to be externally loaded so its strictly one shot

USS Cod - SS-224 - she is a Gato class and had no holes cut in her hull and thus she can dive as well as she did back in the day. It would take work to get her back to fully operational -but she could be restored

[Olefin]

others that could be acquired would be from Turkey

The Turks had the following ships still in commission when WWIII began

Guppy IIA type (ex-USS Balao)

TCG Burakreis - USS SeaFox
TCG Muratreis - USS Razorback
TCG I. Inonu - USS Threadfin

Guppy III Type

TCG II Inonu - USS Corporal
TCG Canakkale - USS Cobbler

USS Tench Class

TCG Ulucalireis - USS Thornback
TCG Cerbe - USS Trutta

USS Tang Class

TCG Pirireis - USS Tang
TCG Hizirreis - USS Gudgeon

So you have nine total subs - I could see the US trying to get one or two back from Turkey if they are still afloat, especially as the Turks had newer subs in commission

[James Langham]

I would guess Turkey could still use them effectively. Subs should be ideal for use in the Eastern Med to bottle in the Soviets. The US would probably welcome this although after the destruction of the major fleets on both sides this might change and the US might want them back (although by then they would be very useful against Greece).

Originally Posted by Olefin

others that could be acquired would be from Turkey

The Turks had the following ships still in commission when WWIII began

Guppy IIA type (ex-USS Balao)

TCG Burakreis - USS SeaFox
TCG Muratreis - USS Razorback
TCG I. Inonu - USS Threadfin

Guppy III Type

TCG II Inonu - USS Corporal
TCG Canakkale - USS Cobbler

USS Tench Class

TCG Ulucalireis - USS Thornback
TCG Cerbe - USS Trutta

USS Tang Class

TCG Pirireis - USS Tang
TCG Hizirreis - USS Gudgeon

So you have nine total subs - I could see the US trying to get one or two back from Turkey if they are still afloat, especially as the Turks had newer subs in commission

[Olefin]

by the way having these in US service doesnt contradict canon in any way - while it did say the last operational American submarine, that doesnt mean that there could be ones either being put back in service or that could have been bought or transferred later

or who because of fuel or lack of weapons are no longer operational

i.e. a submarine with no deck gun and no torps is basically a patrol boat that cant conduct anythign other than move on her own power - in a strict sense she is not an operational boat that can perform patrols and sink enemy ships

or they could be operational - but not able to get home due to fuel limitations - so they are confined to the Med or Korea - and thus are not part of the USN based out of Norfolk