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  #1  
Old 06-04-2018, 09:54 PM
Joseph Benedetto Jr Joseph Benedetto Jr is offline
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Default MP Ration Pack weight?

The Ration Pack in the previous 3 editions of the Gamebook weighs 17 kg, while in the new 4th edition the same item (with the exact same items listed in it!) now weighs 35kg.

Do you suppose this is right? Did the weight double as a result of some unspoken "correction" to the listing shown in the previous editions of the Gamebook? The current 77 lb weight of the Ration Pack as it now stands seems excessive to me, considering it used to be half that weight....
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Old 06-05-2018, 01:38 AM
Gelrir Gelrir is offline
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17 kg for 30 person-days comes to 0.57 kg per day per person. Not gonna worry about the weight of a folding aluminum pot and some fuel tablets for the moment.
35 kg for 30 person-days (I presume that's still how many days the 4th Edition gives) is 1.17 kg per day per person.
  • Freeze-dried LRP rations of the 1960s-1980s era weigh an average of 0.35 kg each, and are each 1100 to 1500 food calories; you were expected to eat two a day (thus 0.7 kg per day).
  • Modern (after the 1990s anyway) dehydrated LRP rations are each a complete day's meal, but weigh about 0.5 kg each.
http://asmrb.pbworks.com/w/page/5275...ear#RationPack
  • If you go to MREs, which aren't dehydrated, each meal weighs .51 to .74 kg, and you should eat two a day: about 1 to 1.5 kg per day. An average of 1.17 could be easily correct.
It sounds like they weighed a few MREs and are using that value for the 4th Edition (without changing the text to, ahem, hydrate the food); or, it could be modern LRP rations, plus that canned fruit juice ... or, something else.
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Old 06-05-2018, 08:17 PM
Joseph Benedetto Jr Joseph Benedetto Jr is offline
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"This is simply a backpack of dehydrated food, canned juices, and vitamins..."

If you work with two MREs per day, and it is "60 PERSON-DAYS" worth of food, that means this backpack contains 120 MREs, right?

Man, that must be *some* big backpack--!
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:51 PM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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It actually sounds like the are using MCW/LRP. The backpack would have to be in the 4.25 cu ft range to hold the 60 person day rations.


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I found a PDF of study from the development of MCW, then know as RCW, and LRP, then known as RLW that is dated 1988. The RCW for 60 man days works out to 51.8Kg and 72.8l of volume. The RLW can in just a little heavier at 54.5Kg, but the same 72.8l. RLW are issued at a rate of 2 per day providing 4000 cal of energy. If you reduce it to one per day giving 2000 cal per day, you get close to the game numbers with 27.3Kg and 36.4l. When these rations got updated and called MCW/LRP, we might get into the range the rules show for weight if there was a modest increase. The molle large rucksack has a volume of 4000 cu in or 65.5l. So backpack is not that large either. MREs are just huge and heavy compared to the dehydrated MCW/LRP pouches. Also since the ration pack in the rules states the rations are dehydrated, they cannot be MREs.

Last edited by mmartin798; 06-06-2018 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 06-07-2018, 01:55 PM
.45cultist .45cultist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmartin798 View Post
It actually sounds like the are using MCW/LRP. The backpack would have to be in the 4.25 cu ft range to hold the 60 person day rations.


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I found a PDF of study from the development of MCW, then know as RCW, and LRP, then known as RLW that is dated 1988. The RCW for 60 man days works out to 51.8Kg and 72.8l of volume. The RLW can in just a little heavier at 54.5Kg, but the same 72.8l. RLW are issued at a rate of 2 per day providing 4000 cal of energy. If you reduce it to one per day giving 2000 cal per day, you get close to the game numbers with 27.3Kg and 36.4l. When these rations got updated and called MCW/LRP, we might get into the range the rules show for weight if there was a modest increase. The molle large rucksack has a volume of 4000 cu in or 65.5l. So backpack is not that large either. MREs are just huge and heavy compared to the dehydrated MCW/LRP pouches. Also since the ration pack in the rules states the rations are dehydrated, they cannot be MREs.
LRRP/Cold Weather are dehydrated hiking entre in an MRE form. I would replace canned juices with "Capri Sun" style pouches by now.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:31 PM
Joseph Benedetto Jr Joseph Benedetto Jr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmartin798 View Post
--cut--
If you reduce it to one per day giving 2000 cal per day, you get close to the game numbers with 27.3Kg and 36.4l.
Yes, but page 109 of the 4th edition gamebook states "The ration pack described in the equipment section assumes that 1 person day of food is equal to 3600 kilocalories because it was designed for soldiers in the battlefield."

*Sigh* I have to wonder where the numbers came from.
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  #7  
Old 06-23-2018, 12:58 PM
Project_Sardonicus Project_Sardonicus is offline
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Interesting foods a big issue the average MRE weighs I believe 600 grammes averaged out and provides a third of a days calories. Assuming the average active person needs 2 litres of water a day that also weighs 2 kilos.

Each team member needs 3.8 kilos a day, lets say 6 people in a team that's 22.8 kilos a day or 684 kilos for a month.

That's a lot of weight and bulk!

And unlike most militaries there's not going to be a base chow hall if you're in the recon for quite some time.

Using local water and food, in a polluted, post-apocalyptic famine-ridden environment isn't much of an option. You can't exactly say "we come in peace hand over your food."

And using MREs for to long is one of the biggest drains on morale for a unit.

I wonder if the project would go for a mixture of luxury MREs rather like the French or Italian models and spend some serious money on that, make them, themselves. But still expect the team to get by on high energy bars or other First strike style hitech foods?

Or would it be one of the cases of send them out as best prepared as possible and hope for the best.
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Old 06-24-2018, 11:53 AM
mmartin798 mmartin798 is offline
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If we stay in North America, getting water that can be easily filtered in the quantities needed would not be that difficult or arduous. This makes the dehydrated food the only real thing to store and move. Using 4000 cal per day LRP, we get for 180 Man-Days a mass of 163.5 kg and 218.4 liters volume. The volume can fit into 4 backpacks, so it is not insubstantial, but not as bad as you seem to indicate.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:27 PM
Gelrir Gelrir is offline
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For our campaign, most MP vehicles have two water tanks; for the V150 armored cars, this replaces the original fuel tank(s). One is for "dirty" water, and there's a filter connecting that to the "clean" water tank.

Every so often, the crew has to remove and clean the ceramic filters; and they aren't effective against chemical or viral contaminants. Test your water supplies before adding water to the "dirty" tank!

--
Michael B.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:27 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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When discussing rations and the Project, our baseline is TM1-1 where the Ration Pack is described as weighing a total of 17kg and consisting of a backpack of dehydrated food, canned juices and vitamins sufficient for 4 people for 15 days. The pack also contains materials for heating, a folding pot, and water purification tablets. From this we can infer that the backpack contains 180 meals.

A review of the various loadouts for the Project vehicles confirms that there is no supplemental food preparation equipment beyond the folding pot and the members individual mess kits.

One of the problems with long-term dehydrated food usage is the impact these rations have on the body. There is a running joke that such rations are designed to be nutritious, long lasting, and taste goodyou get to pick two.

The problem for the Project planners is then two-fold, either sufficient rations are made available to the teams, taking up much needed space for other necessary supplies, or at some point, the team must be strongly encouraged to live off the land.

To assist in freeing up storage space, it now becomes necessary to insure that the teams have the necessary ability to feed themselves. This approach requires some necessary additions to the standard equipment load.

Butchering Kit, weight 3.5kg: this is a plastic case that contains the following equipment for dressing game: a 3-inch caping knife; a 4.25-inch skinning knife; a 5.5-inch boning/fillet knife; a 8-inch butcher knife; a 10-inch wood/bone saw; a 6.5-inch cleaver; a 5.25-inch carving fork; a pair of heavy-duty game shears; a 10x14 cutting board; a spreader; a knife sharpener and a Gambrel and hoist system (lift capacity of 238kg). Scale of issue, one per V-150.

Camp Mate, weighs 4kg: this is a plastic and steel portable organizer with over 7,000 cubic-inches of storage space. The top storage area can hold a camp stove and its protective lid can also double as a sink. A silverware tray doubles as a dish strainer. Plate and cutting board storage inside the main compartment holds plateware for up to eight. Both doors are equipped with racks for holding spices and seasonings.

Camp Stove, weight 5.4kg: this is an electrical stove with two large and one small burners. The case can double as a windscreen and it can be connected to a Project vehicle by means of an extension cord.

Coffee Pot, weighs 1kg: a stainless steel, 14-cup capacity pot. What more needs to be said, coffee is life!

Food Preparation, Field, weighs 20.4kg: contained in a fiberglass box are a 2 can openers, 2qt cast-iron pot w/lid; 6qt cast iron pot w/lid; 12 cast-iron skillet w/lid; 10x6: cutting board; 8-inch butchers knife; 5-inch slicing knife; 3-inch paring knife; ladle; large fork; medium spoon; spatula.

From our own Kato13 comes his Food Kit, Bulk, consisting of five fiberglass crates with a total weight of 179.6kg. It contains:

Crate, Fiberglass 24 x 20 x 10, Collapsible #1: Caffeine Gum Pack of 5 (100); Can Opener, P-38 (8); Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Apples; Can, 1kg Dehydrated Bananas; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Carrots; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Cherries; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Potato Diced; Can, 1kg, Freeze-dried Beef (4) ; Bag, -lb, Gravy Powder (2); Bag, -lb, Pepper, Black; Bag, 1kg White Sugar
Crate, Fiberglass 24 x 20 x 10, Collapsible #2: Chocolate bars, 16-oz (10); Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Applesauce; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Celery; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Fruit Cocktail; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Potato Flakes; Bag, 5kg, Flour, Brown (2); Can, 1kg, Freeze-dried Chicken (4); Bottle, Multi-vitamins, 100 units (10) ; Jar, -kg Peanut Butter; Bag, Survival Biscuits, 50 each (4)

Crate, Fiberglass 24 x 20 x 10, Collapsible #3: Can, 12-oz, Butter, Long Term Storage (3) ; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Green Beans; Can, -kg, Dehydrated Ketchup; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Peaches; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Strawberries; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Sweet Corn; Bag, 5kg, Flour, White (2); Gum Pellets, pack of 50 (20); Jar, 1kg, Honey (4); Bottle, -kg, Maple Syrup (4); Cubes, Sugar, pack of 50 (20)

Crate, Fiberglass 24 x 20 x 10, Collapsible #4: Bottle, 1-Liter, Corn Oil (4); Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Apricots; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Onions; Can, 1kg, Raisins; Package, 1kg, Pasta (8); Bag, -kg, Red Pepper; Bag, 3kg, Egg, Powdered (2); Bag, 5kg, Red Beans; Can, -kg, Tomato Paste (4)

Crate, Fiberglass 24 x 20 x 10, Collapsible #5: Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Blueberries; Bag, -kg Dehydrated Mustard; Can, 1kg, Dehydrated Red/Green Peppers; Bag, 5kg, Rice, Brown (3); Bag, -kg, Powdered Chocolate(2); Bag, 5kg, Powdered Milk; Bag, 1.2-kg Dried Coffee (3); Bag, -kg Tea, Black (2); Bag, 1kg, Salt, Iodized (10); Bottles, 3-oz, Spices, Various (12)

Finally, my take on the Ration Pack.
My impressions of the canon ration pack is that someone went to an outdoor supply store and weighed freeze-dried meals and came up with this idea. Over the years, various PDs have implanted C-Rations, MCIs, MREs, LRRP Rations etc., without really considering the long term impact such rations have. Thanks to a couple of buddies in the U.K. and Australia/New Zealand, I was introduced to the 24-hour Combat Ration. Simply, this is a 2kg cardboard box, that contains a high-impact plastic wrapped of material, sufficient for two main meals, a midday snack and a number of sundry items.

The Combat Ration, Individual is issued in cases of 12 CRI (weighing 25kg) or in pallets of 40 cases (weighing 1,000kg).

It consists of twelve menus:

Menu A: Beef Steak with Mushrooms; Red Beans & Rice; Soup, Savory; Beverage Powder, Lemon & Lime; Beverage Powder, Tropical; Crackers; Shortbread Cookies; Freeze-dried Potatoes & Onions; Fruit Grains, Apricot; Fruit Spread, Blackberry; Fruit, Peaches, Dices; Muesli Cereal, Fruitful; Dried, Skim Milk; Sauce Tomato; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu B: Beef, Minced w/Spaghetti; Chicken, Italiano; Soup, Beef; Beverage Powder, Mixed Berry; Beverage Powder, Grape; Crackers, Wheat Snack Bread; Fudge Brownie, Tuna in Springwater; Fruit Grains, Strawberry; Fruit Spread, Apple; Fruit, Peaches, Diced; Sauce BBQ; Sauce Tomato; Cheese Spread; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu C: Pork Rib; Braised Beef & Gravy; Clam Chowder, Cheese Spread, Wheat Snack Bread (2), Beverage Powder, Orange; Beverage Powder, Tropical; Wheat Snack Bread (2); Tuna in Springwater; Fruit Grains, Mixed berry; Fruit Spread, Raspberry; Fruit, Pears, Diced; Noodles, Chicken Flavor, Hot Sauce; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu D: Beef BBQ; Chicken BBQ; Soup, Chicken; Beverage Powder, Lemon & Lime; Beverage Powder, Orange, Crackers (2), Fruit Grains, Apricot; Fruit Spread, Strawberry; Fruit, Apples, Diced; Muesli Cereal, Natural; Milk, Dried Skim; Noodles, Beef Flavor; Sauce BBQ; Sauce, Tomato; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu E: Beef Mince w/Tortellini; Salmon & Pasta Mornay; Soup, Tomato; Beverage Powder, Raspberry; Beverage Powder, Lemon & Lime; Crackers, Wheat Snack Bread; Freeze-dried Rice; Fruit Grains, Strawberry; Fruit Spread, Apple; Fruit Cocktail, Muesli Cereal, Fruitful; Milk, Dried Skim; Noodles, Chicken Flavor; Sauce BBQ, Sauce Tomato; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu F: Beef Teriyaki; Chicken Breast; Minestrone Stew; Jalapeno Cheese Spread; Wheat Snack Bread (2); Pound Cake; Beverage Powder, Orange; Beverage Powder, Grape; Fruit Grains, Apricot; Fruit Spread, Blackberry; Fruit, Peach, Diced; Noodles, Beef Flavor; Sauce, BBQ, Sauce Sweet Chili; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu G: Chili Con Carne; Chicken w/Thai Sauce, Rice Pilaf, Soup, Beef; Beverage Powder, Mixed Berry; Beverage Powder, Orange; Crackers (2); Fruit Grains, Blackberry; Fruit Spread, Raspberry; Fruit, Pears, Diced; Muesli Cereal, Natural, Milk, Dried Skim; Sauce, Sweet Chili; Sauce, Tomato; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu H: Baked Beacons & Bacon; Turkey Breast w/Gravy & Potatoes; Soup, Savory; Beverage Powder, Lemon & Lime; Beverage Powder, Mixed Berry; Wheat Snack Bread (2); Fruit Grains, Mixed Berry; Fruit Spread, Orange; Fruit, Peaches, Diced; Muesli Cereal, Fruitful; Sauce, Tomato; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu I: Beef Patty; Chicken w/Salsa; Rice; Nacho Cheese; Pretzels; Beef Strip; Beverage Powder, Orange; Beverage Powder, Spiced Apple Cider; Cheese Spread; Wheat Snack Bread (2); Sauce, BBQ; Hot Sauce; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu J: Beef Ravioli; Country Captain Chicken; Buttered Noodles; Potato Sticks; Cheese Spread; Crackers (2); Fudge Brownie; Beverage Powder, Orange; Beverage Powder, Cocoa; Fruit Grains, Apricot; Fruit Spread, Strawberry; Fruit, Apples, Diced; Muesli Cereal, Natural; Milk, Dried Skim; Noodles, Beef Flavor; Hot Sauce; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

Menu K: Chicken w/Thai Sauce; Beef Stew; Rice Pilaf; Peanut Butter; Crackers (2), Raisin Nut Mix; Hot Sauce; Beverage Powder, Mixed Berry; Beverage Powder, Lemon & Lime; Fruit Grains, Blackberry; Fruit Spread, Orange; Fruit, Apples, Diced; Noodles, Chicken Flavor; Muesli Cereal, Natural; Milk, Dried Skim;

Menu L: Black Bean & Rice Burrito; Beef Enchilada; Mexican Rice; Crackers (2), Jalapeno Cheese Spread; Fruit Grains, Strawberry; Fruit Spread, Apple; Fruit Cocktail, Muesli Cereal, Fruitful; Milk, Dried Skim; Noodles, Chicken Flavor; Sauce BBQ, Sauce Tomato; Milk, Sweet Condensed; Cheese Cheddar, Canned; Chocolate Bars (2); Beverage, Coffee, Instant (2); Tea Bags (2); Sugar (7); Candy Chocolate M&Ms); Candy Hard, Various (2); Chewing Gum (2); Pepper, Black; Salt; Bag, Plastic Resealable; Bag, Plastic, Inner; Rubber Bands, size 32 (2); Rubber Band, size 61; Can Opener, Hand; Matches, Safety Vial; Pad, Scouring Nylon; Toilet Paper Sheets (15); Menu Sheet; Ingredient Sheet.

The new Ration Pack, now consists of 14 CRIs, 24 Energy Bars, 12 Emergency Ration Bars, 24 envelopes of water treatment powder (each good for 5qts); 18 envelopes of various flavors of Kool-Aid (each will make 5qts); 6 envelops of various flavors of Gatorade (each good for 5qts). Total weight goes up to 38kg.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:39 AM
dragoon500ly dragoon500ly is offline
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Considering the fun of introducing team members to living off the land, here are a couple of resources on how to preserve and cook 18th century food. The book "Feeding Nelson's Navy" by Janet MacDonald not only gives insight into the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, but includes tips on preserving meat, soup and ship's biscuit, but several interesting recipes to try out.

On YouTube, try the series "18th Century Cooking" you can watch many of these same menus being prepared.
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