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  #1  
Old 06-04-2009, 02:22 PM
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Default Map of CONUS Nuke strikes.

As Part of my ongoing mapping work I have played around a little with several options for mapping nuclear strikes.

I have created 3 versions of a map of the Ver 2.2 canon strikes. I am not totally happy with the strike radii math, so it will probably change as I move forward. Hope you guys find them useful.

Small (862x471 49KB)


Medium (1359x807 98KB)
http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_conus_med.jpg

Large (2650x1450 284KB)
http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_conus_lrg.jpg
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2009, 03:16 PM
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Very cool. Is there anyway to add the Canadian strikes that are visible on the map?

And I'm pretty sure that the CONUS strategic target list in V2 is the same as the list from V1. I'll double check on that using the Challenge article and Howling Wilderness.

Benjamin
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:29 PM
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If someone provides me with any canon strike lists (Canada, USSR, UK, etc) I can add those points and map them. I know I have them somewhere but coding is more fun than digging through files . Additional strikes are easy it is just a matter of adding new long/lat points to the database along with a warhead size.

Eventually this will all be added to my gaming maps system, but I still have a lot of work to do on the difference between overpressure and heat radii, and ground versus airburst.
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Old 06-04-2009, 04:53 PM
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I have my scanner up and running now and so I can get you the lists as per V1 or V2. All you need to do is send me an email and I'll reply in a bit with pdfs.

I'm pretty sure V1 and V2 hit lists are the same so either one should suffice.

Benjamin
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  #5  
Old 06-04-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
I have my scanner up and running now and so I can get you the lists as per V1 or V2. All you need to do is send me an email and I'll reply in a bit with pdfs.

I'm pretty sure V1 and V2 hit lists are the same so either one should suffice.

Benjamin
If you can point me to book name and page numbers that should be enough.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:04 PM
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After reading over them, I can say that the Hit Lists for V1 and V2 are essentially the same.

Since you're using V2.2 "the Big Yellow Book" I'll give you those page numbers.

British Nuclear Targets, page 226 (This lists only cities not what was actually targeted.)

US Nuclear Targets, page 235 (I actually typed this out before remembering that there's a good chance you already had this list.)

Canadian Nuclear Targets, page 236. (Like the US target list this only includes major strategic targets, not the smaller tactical warheads.)

U.S.S.R. Nuclear Targets, page 239. (Other than a few spelling differences this is the same list that originally appeared in Challenge #33.)

Hope this makes the endeavor a bit easier.

Benjamin
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2009, 07:31 PM
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Thanks for the data. I have my hands full with over 2200 warheads hitting the US for the Morrow Project version of the map. I'll dig into the Canadian and UK ones pretty quick. The Russian ones might have to wait as I am sure geocoding them (determining long/lat) will be made more difficult by language differences.

If a warhead size is not listed I will just make it 500kt.
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Old 06-05-2009, 07:22 PM
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Added a map to the British targets here British Nuclear Targets Map. I did not go with only 500kt for the British targets. I threw in a few 750 and 1MT for larger cities.

Canada and the USSR are going to take longer due to the size of the maps. A curse on Flemish geographer and cartographer Gerardus Mercator and his dammed projections.
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Old 06-06-2009, 04:07 AM
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The thing that confuses me about the V1/2/2.2 target map and Red Star, Lone Star is that on the game target map, Randolph AFB (on the north side of San Antonio) has been nuked. In Red Star, Lone Star, Randolph is intact, as is most of San Antonio. Logically, Randolph AFB, Kelly AFB, Ft Sam Houston, and San Antonio International Airport were all secondary or tertiary targets, and they probably all have been nuked.

Randolph AFB is Air Training Command, and has nice, big runways and great repair facilities. It was a secondary target for the Russians. Kelly AFB and San Antonio International Airport were secondary targets because they have runways that can handle heavy bombers and were SAC dispersal bases; Kelly also had repair facilities for heavy US aircraft. Ft. Sam Houston, in the T2K timeline, was home to 8th Army as well as MEDDAC (US Army Medical Command). It was a tertiary target.

Personally, I prefer San Antonio to be intact, but I may have a bias...
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Old 06-06-2009, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b
Logically, Randolph AFB, Kelly AFB, Ft Sam Houston, and San Antonio International Airport were all secondary or tertiary targets, and they probably all have been nuked.

Personally, I prefer San Antonio to be intact, but I may have a bias...
But its also true that there are countless other secondary and tertiary targets that have escaped attack right? Considering it was a "limited" exchange drawn out over a couple months... and with missile and air command centers knocked out - it may help explain why some of the higher value targets still exist.

Another way to look at it is... the map lists the target but not where the actual detonation occurred. I think it says something to that effect. It could also be a miss of a few kilos for (insert) reason.

I understand your bias. My city was targeted in Canada (a target list I think is over the top). I adjust the end result a little as a result.
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  #11  
Old 06-06-2009, 04:39 AM
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I agree that there are some glaring omissions in the canon nuclear target lists.

If you look at the UK for example, the all major Naval bases (Faslane, Rosyth, Plymouth and Portsmouth) escape unscathed. Aldershot gets nuked but Catterick doesn't. And the whole of the North East industrial area escapes.
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  #12  
Old 06-06-2009, 06:17 AM
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And here, especially after looking at kato13's target maps, I thought the UK got overly pummeled for its area in square kilometers.

Remember that the target lists are only for strategic nuclear hits. Canada, the US and the UK were also hit by multiple tactical nuclear weapons and these will still be in the size range of the Nagasaki (Fat Man 21kt) and Hiroshima (Little Boy 13-18 kt) devices. With that in mind you could do some serious damage to nearly any target you want to by saying it was hit bt a tactical nuclear weapon.

Conversely, there several references to near-misses and malfunctions of Soviet weapons that served to save an intended target. Given that Soviet nuclear weapons are believed to have a much larger circular error probability than US weapons. This is why Soviet bombs generally had a higher yield than US devices. (It's also why the saying...Close only counts in horseshoes...was extended to include nuclear weapons, and perhaps hand grenades)

So as a GM you could easily justify saving a desired target by saying the nuclear weapon targeting the location missed, got messed up by EMP, got shot down by an early Star Wars system, was a dud, only fissed but didn't fuse, hit a goose at launch, was made by the cheapest bidder, fried by a solar flare, incorrect targeting information made it hit Lake Titicaca instead or any number of things.

And the nice thing is that if you have a serious grudge against a particular town or location you can fill fully justified in wiping that blight off the face of the Earth with a 10-20 kt tactical nuclear weapon.

Benjamin
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  #13  
Old 06-06-2009, 06:36 AM
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Benjamin of course you're right that ultimately it's always going to be up to the GM what has been nuked or hasn't.

I dunno...I guess I was just being picky...

Cheers

Dave
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  #14  
Old 06-06-2009, 07:08 AM
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North American Strike map (Sans Alaska/Mexico/Greenland and northernmost Canada)

http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_s...th_america.jpg (4150x3550 907 KB)
(edit if you download this map you don't need to down load the one below I fixed the error)

A smaller map with all the Canadian Strikes is available here here.

USSR is going to be very annoying so I may wait a bit. Oh if anyone wants Alaska or Hawaii let me know.

Last edited by kato13; 06-06-2009 at 12:43 PM.
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  #15  
Old 06-06-2009, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
So as a GM you could easily justify saving a desired target by saying the nuclear weapon targeting the location missed, got messed up by EMP, got shot down by an early Star Wars system, was a dud, only fissed but didn't fuse, hit a goose at launch, was made by the cheapest bidder, fried by a solar flare, incorrect targeting information made it hit Lake Titicaca instead or any number of things.
I did that when I was running a campaign -- I wanted Kennedy Space Center to survive, so the bombs destined for it (three, IIRC), hit well off the coast instead, though a small wave washed over the entire Space Center. The warhead destined for Kaneohe MCAS also missed by a country mile (I spent my teenage years there, and have a lot of fond memories).
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  #16  
Old 06-06-2009, 12:40 PM
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Just a note. Benjamin pointed out that I had targeted the province not the City of Quebec. I have updated the map accordingly.

http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_s...th_america.jpg
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:48 AM
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Another question/comment. The strikes in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming are just the command centers for the missile wings. There are command centers all over the areas, at least ten for each of the wings that would be targets of multiple strikes as well. I grew up in NoDak, half way between the two red dots (Minot AFB to the west and Grand Forks AFB to the east. The nearest silos to home were 40 miles east and about the same to the west. Were war to come at that time in my life, we were going to be well irradiated, the area a radioactive wasteland from the Rockies to the Great Lakes; and from the Platte River to Canada. NoDak was joked as the third largest nuclear power in the world hving well over 300 Minuteman missile silos as well as two SAC bomber wings.

It was interesting to watch the BUFFs do their low level insertion practice, traveling about 400 feet off the surface. Their path for the practice was 12 miles west of where I lived, and over fields where I worked as a field scout, First encounter startled me as I came out of a treeline and there within pistol range is a BUFF passing by. You do NOT hear them until they are over you!

Imagine a farmer working and seeing an enemy bomber sliding semi-silently over your field.

I've also experienced a fighter 'bombing run' while working in the field. A shadow growing over the tractor, look back and up a bit and here's an F4 coming out of the eveing sun. Close enough you could smell the kerosene as he kicked his afterburners. That was just after the Hooligans (NoDak ANG Fighter wing) transitioned to F4.

Lots of interesting memories from the Cold War era in central NoDak.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graebarde
Another question/comment. The strikes in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming are just the command centers for the missile wings.
I note after the fact that Rapid City missed the target list. Strange, since it was Wing HQ for the FIRST Minuteman wing planted and home also for a BOne wing. Oversite?
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  #19  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:09 AM
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There are tons of potential targets that GDW spared. I am currently working on mapping out the hits from Morrow Project enhanced targeting list. I have 2802 warheads from 582 missiles hitting something like 508 targets. GDW only chose to hit 82 targets meaning less than one in five potential targets was converted to vapor.

As for handling missing strikes, I most probably will have a map tool to allow the user to place their own strikes on a map (probably limited to 26) and see how things look.

Looking back I think this is really funny how I am doing the same things I did 25 years ago but with newer and better technology. Back then I had acetate sheets with burst radii which I would move around several maps I had to see what the potential for devastation was. Now it is all digital but it is still just as fun.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kato13
There are tons of potential targets that GDW spared.
I guess if they went with total nuke exchange the game wouldn't be what it is. There would be no hope for rebuilding and no point in tackling the missions in the modules. It would less a military RPG and more of a - extend your suffering by X number of weeks.
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Old 06-07-2009, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusilier
I guess if they went with total nuke exchange the game wouldn't be what it is. There would be no hope for rebuilding and no point in tackling the missions in the modules. It would less a military RPG and more of a - extend your suffering by X number of weeks.
There's definitely that.

Also, I think part of the justification for limiting the number of targets in the canon write-up was the avoidance of a general MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) nuclear war by keeping both nuclear powers from intentionally going after too many of their respective enemy's strategic nuclear assets.

It was a slippery slope since some strategic nuclear targets (silos, command and control, airfields for strategic bombers, sub pens, etc.) look like they were targeted. However, it sounds and looks like it was a onesy-twosie sort of tit-for-tat type deal rather than a "let's launch one big crippling attack" sort of thing.

If either side felt they were about to lose all of their nuclear weapons due to enemy strikes, they would have unleashed all of their birds, prompting an equally massive counter-strike. This would have resulted in MAD and not much of a game world to play in/on.

Kato, any chance of putting all of your finalized strike maps up in one thread- maybe as a sticky?
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:40 PM
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A couple of years ago at GenCon Indy I talked to a guy who was at the GURPS booth. I can't remember his name off hand, but he said he had conversed with Loren Wiseman. They talked about the nuclear hit list and besides a totally game-world based decision to keep the destruction "limited", there seemed to be a general belief that the early destruction of command and control (i.e. high level executive decision makers) would limit the exchange.

Admittedly, this may be a flawed assumption and the destruction of NECAP is a bit of a stretch, but the creators of 2300AD worked a bit backwards. They knew what kind of RPG they wanted so the finagled the timeline a bit to get there. Frank Chadwick worked for the government doing this same kind of thing for government training simulations.

The Morrow Project too had a game design goal but it was decidedly different from what GDW wanted. Truth be told I had several Morrow supplements but found the premise a bit silly. 150 years in the future but most groups were still using war time vehicles and weapons? Also the mutant animals sort of took the realism factor down a bit.

I agree the hit list for T2K is a bit limited. I usually ad a few targets and I usually have a few city-busters thrown in by a late firing Soviet boomer.

Benjamin
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2009, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raellus
Kato, any chance of putting all of your finalized strike maps up in one thread- maybe as a sticky?
I may work on a "stuff I've made" thread. I have maps, equipment lists, data sets, etc. Maybe as a sticky or having a prominent position in one of the current sticky threads.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:20 PM
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In case anyone is interested in what the strike map for a Morrow Project game might look like I have links to a couple maps in this thread. Other than calculated duds and misses I bet there will be very few complaints about SOVs missing an obvious target.
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:49 PM
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It is interesting that the twin Sault Ste. Marie weren't hit on you target maps. With the Soo Locks and amount of Iron Ore that could be transported through them. Even if it started to with the taking out of Military installation initially, as they went out to take out oil refinaries and the like, the Locks would be on a short list too.

During WWII Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan was home 15,000 soldiers, with Germany and Japan not actually have the ability to attack this location, but it was well guarded. Also German POWs were interned in the UP too. The Bases are gone from here, but I would think if there was a war with Russia/Soviet Union this would be one of the target that the US would try to protect. Fort Brady in the Sault, Radar Hill, Raco Air Field, and Kincheloe Air Force Base as well as the Corps of Engineer Locks, and Sault Coast Guard Base are the handful of military installation that were in the area after WWII and sadly now only the Locks and Coast Guard Base are what remains.

As for Maraquette, would that be the city or the K.I. Sawyer AFB. The reason I ask is that Sawyer is like 20 miles from Maraquette, not that their would be on huge forest fire, and Empire mine would be close too. Maraquette does have a loading dock, but it quite small compared to those in Duluth/Superior area.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:00 PM
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The UP of Michigan has a major Morrow mission IIRC. Chicago does as well. Both are conveniently "missed" by canon strikes.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:37 PM
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As far as Air Force bomber and missile bases and Navy airfields and bases not shown to be hit on the target list and map, we might reasonably assume that even though the Soviet Union was still around as a significant geopolitical entity and we didn't have the significant military drawdown we've seen in real-life since the 80s, intelligent force reductions did nonetheless occur in T2K; merging of missions and closing/realignment of bases and such.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sic1701 View Post
As far as Air Force bomber and missile bases and Navy airfields and bases not shown to be hit on the target list and map, we might reasonably assume that even though the Soviet Union was still around as a significant geopolitical entity and we didn't have the significant military drawdown we've seen in real-life since the 80s, intelligent force reductions did nonetheless occur in T2K; merging of missions and closing/realignment of bases and such.

The first round of BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) occurred in 1988 so that is very reasonable.
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:23 PM
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And BRAC might have accelerated somewhat, if the U.S. needed to close and align installations in order to save money or shuffle it around for newer weapons programs in anticipation for a prolonged Cold War. One of the reasons that so many installations were able to be closed in the several BRAC rounds was the fact that the Cold War's end made them not only unnecessary and redundant, but also cost-prohibitive to even maintain in any kind of caretaker status.
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:59 AM
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Does anyone have these files for download? I know kato's having filedump issues so was hoping someone else had them available?

Send PM for contact info or email to kilgs....AT.... yahoo.
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