Urban Farming

[Raellus]

I've long thought that urban farming as described in T2K modules like Ruins of Warsaw and Armies of the Night to be a little far fetched but I heard a piece today on NPR's Marketplace radio program about just such practices currently taking place in Detroit, Michigan.

With the decline of the U.S. automotive industry, the city's been in a state of economic depression for years now and it's only gotten worse the last couple. There are hundreds of empty lots there and, recently, folks have started planting various vegetable crops in these plots. They're even clearing rubble-filled lots and transforming them into large garden plots.

One of the problems that urban farmers in Detroit face is the high levels of toxic lead in the soil from its decades as an industrial center. To surmount this obstacle to farming, urban farmers have been creating raised plots by building large planters and filling them with soil and compost trucked in from outside the city. Using this method, folks are growing safe, healthy food crops.

Anyway, it seems to be somewhat of a trend and if it can work in urban detroit, with its somewhat toxic soils, it could probably work in nuked or otherwise devastated cities.

Food for thought (pardon the bad pun).

[ChalkLine]

If you plant two crops of silver beet and destroy the harvests you can generally assume healthy soil. Do not, of course, plough the harvests back in or you've done nothing. Silver beet is great food, grows quickly anywhere and is something a GM can happily make the PCs sick of in no time flat.

I've always disliked urban farming when it's obvious that good farming areas are nearby and untilled. It then makes no sense to stay in an urban area, so if you really want to have urban farming the GM has to make it make sense. Either/and;

- Chemical attacks have poisoned the ground and groundwater outside the city.
- The rural areas are dangerous due to undetonated cluster munitions, remote deployed mines and other UXO.
- The walls of the destroyed urban area provided shelter from radioactive dust from upwind (unlikely).
- Outside the urban area is too open, and marauders use sniper rifles on visible individuals.

[Mohoender]

Urban farming will of course definitely be coming back and Detroit is not an exception. Right now, in France, we are not really having urban farming but collective crop gardens are being developped everywhere. With the reduction in incom many people can't afford to buy vegetables and this is seen as a good option by associations and people (actually it's a good option IMO).

In T2K, Urban farming will come back fast and it will take several aspects.

The first thing that will be developped, however, will probably be animal raising: chickens, rabits and pigs. These animals don't need much and can be raised in basements and back courtyard. In addition you can feed them with garbage and corps (at least for the pigs). Just as an exemple take Paris: France made laws in the 1980's to ban urban animal raising (and you still find some around). These three animals were found in Paris until well after ww2 (as in London..., and you can add turkeys). Moreover, before ww2, the main nuisance in Paris was coming from the 500.000 roosters singing every morning at about 5:00am.:D

Then, farming will take place again in backyard courts and at windows probably (this might seem limited but it is already taking place, people have gardens at their windows and on balconies). Then, it will spread to public parks, first starting around zoos and farms.

Right now you still have a farm in the middle of Brussels and when I was kid, a man was raising horses two blocks away from my grand mother's place in the city of Liege. In Europe, you still have plenty of "urban farm" that can be turned back to their original purpose.

One last thing, the bee population is going down all over our countrysides but it is booming in our cities.

[Mohoender]

I've always disliked urban farming when it's obvious that good farming areas are nearby and untilled. It then makes no sense to stay in an urban area, so if you really want to have urban farming the GM has to make it make sense. Either/and;


Urban farming will be the rule for only two obvious reasons: people can't travel any more and the good lands located a few miles outside of the city is simply out of reach. In addition, you can protect it and you feed marauders more than yourself. :)

[ChalkLine]

Urban farming will be the rule for only two obvious reasons: people can't travel any more and the good lands located a few miles outside of the city is simply out of reach. In addition, you can protect it and you feed marauders more than yourself. :)

Well, most people will want out of the city as fast as they can. That's where disease is going to be first. Also, they're natural targets for military operations.

Farmland makes nice, open killing zones. Having fields around your canton gives you the ability to reach out and smite when the enemy must expose themselves to close. They can't mortar you if they want your supplies.

Given that the average person moves at 4km/h, it's not really valid to have people in cities without a way of making outside the city less hospitable.

[Legbreaker]

Habit is one of the reasons people will stay put. That and the fairly limited number of firearms capable of taking advantage of wide open fields of fire.
In the city you have shelter, admittedly without power, running water, sewerage, etc. You also have limited fields of fire and you can with just a little effort chanel attackers into kill zones where your assorted shotguns, pistols, bows, crossbows, spears, thrown rubble, etc can be used to it's full potential.

Of course I wouldn't be found dead in a city post nuke, but then I've a country background...

[Graebarde]

Of course I wouldn't be found dead in a city post nuke, but then I've a country background...

LOL... well if you WERE in a strike zone city on the day, you might be dead there, but still nothing left to find...


I'm of the same accord though. I HATE cities... they serve a purpose for limited visits... I live in a town that think's it's a city.. and hate that even.. give me the country any time.


I agree that urban farming is plausable, and folks are creatures of habit though. One thing is SOMEONE in the area has to have SOME knowledge of how to raise the crops and animals. I scratch my head as to WHY they might stay, though if they have adequate source of water and good, secure shelter then perhaps. I find urbanites not cooperative enough for a real venture though... ummm on second thought, rural America is getting that way too.. nothing like it was when I was a kid and farmers more often than not worked together on harvests.. today it's all about being better than the Jones' it seems.

BUT a catastrophe such as Twilight (and that IS an understatement) will bring out the best in people.. as well as the worst. It then boils down to life of good vs evil as always.

[simonmark6]

That's not strictly true, Graebarde, when you were a kid it was all hunter gathering, agriculture hadn't really been invented in those days...:)

[jester]

Urban Farming;

AWESOME TOPIC!

I think it would be beyond cool! And totaly doable. As for who would remain in a city. I would just to do it :)

In a secured city like in Warsaw and Krakow well, the town is secured. The crops are to suppliment what those towns trade for and grow in the countryside. But as has been stated, it can be too dangerous to work the fields in an area where there is signfigant hostile activity. So, within the walls and buildings of a city you have a more or less controlled area. Remember, folks working the fields are targets. An attacked can hide wherever he wants and has greater freedom of movement. And he can also set the fields afire. If you can't take it, then deny it to everyone so they have one less asset.

If you are in a village, and you are besieged you are now held hostage. You are trapped in your city/village. And you certainly can not get out to tend to your fields. And you surely can't make use of your crops. The marauders/badguys can just sit and wait. If it gets to costly for them, or taking to long they can just burn your fields and now you are without the fields and what they would provide. As well as all of that time and labor is wasted.

Remember, someone sitting on the edge of your fields they can move. They can forage. They can get water, they can remain mobile. But, the folks in the little village, they are stuck. And then we also have the phsycological factor as well. Mobility allows for greater stricking power. The people in the village have limited options for combat unless they leave it to engage in the open. The force besieging them can move and attack from any direction, or cover. They also can infiltrate through the fields if the crops have grown enough it would be a farily easy task to crawl low enough to get within effective rifleshot. Again this would also be very damaging to the defenders psychologicaly. Think of the Winterwar between the Finns and the Russians and how the Finns managed to cut and isolate the Russian forces into what they called "Woodpiles." Where they isolated them and then destroyed them. And this could easily be done with small farming communities who have fields surrounding them as well as the wide open visible target of a cultivated field litteraly RIPE FOR THE PICKING!

Inner city gardening you have control and protection and it can be hidden as well.

A secured city or portion of, well you have the advantages the buildings present. A higher platform to observe things at a greater distance. Cover and concealment. And should an enemy cover into the city well house to house fighting is much more man and material intensive for an aggressor and thus a major asset to the defender, oh yeah and also, it channels the attackor forcing him to go through specific routes anf again limiting his manuverability to areas who know and can prepare for a greater defense.

Now, as for a modern full city. Think about this. They will be ghost towns after a couple of years. Between disease, starvation and general chaos and breakdowns most of the remaining population will die off, wander away from the city with a very small fraction being left who forage and etch out a liviing as best they can, with a few who may have a real industry remaining in the city.

I posted this on the yahoo T2K site a long time agoand I shall repost them again thoughts here.


Cities would be cool to be in after for the following:

Wait until things have settled. And the population has starved, died off, been evacuated or just moved on. <Remember New Orleans? that in my mind is what would happen except it would go on for a much longer period of time, months or even a year or two. With just a few diehard hanging on.>

Now, you hide out until "the crazy ride comes to a complete stop." Thus, there will be less human activity, fewer maruaders and since its a dead city, well, it will no longer be a military objective so no one will have any interest in it.

Move into the rooftops. Or, remove the roof leaving the walls so you now have an open area with tall walls to sheild your activities from prying eyes.

Now you move soil upto the roofs and recently opened floors and you created garden plots. Or you just place it the soil on the ground. Although personaly I would go with planter boxes for real plants, grains sould on the ground method. Maybe in very shallow large plots.

Now, one can remove access to the upper floors by removing all means at the lower floors.

Also, making large planter or window boxes. About a meter wide and running the entire length of the wall with access to water and harves by simply leaning out of the open/missing window. Or, even balconies of apartment buildings, these one could with the use of nets or old fences give a means of them crawling up the side of the building. Imagine a building with one side covered in grape vines or tomatoes or beans or melons.

Also, one could build a chicken coup and pigeon coup atop the buildings as well. Pigs, turkeys as have also been mentioned. But also, with the tanks that are found atop most roofs, pools in some and even flooded parking garages could be converted for use in aquaculture, or even growing algae which is also edible, so you can end up with several decent amounts of food.

Further, one can have several rooftops converted to this purpose again removing access to the lower floors. And maybe having one or two buildings where one can get access. Then using suspension and rope bridges connecting the tall buildings and maybe even some ziplines elevators and lifts and even primative cable cars to move people and goods from rooftop to rooftop you could manage safe, secure community that could be self sustaining.

Water could be a problem, so in a coastal community is where you would have better chances, using the natural moisture from fog, heavy dew and rain. Cisterns to college rain water, and a series of pumps from ground water and maybe channeling water from a river in the area.

As for defenses, well you can do all maner of things, it would be similiar to defending a castle of old. Dropping ruble atop an attacker. Firebombs, firearms, logs with spikes, nets as well as regular weapons. The only downside is, if an enemy had demo then they could take out your buildings, or alot of men with saw, picks and crowbars to attack the foundations of the buildings <this is long and dangerous for the demolition crew not only could the building or parts of it colapse on them, while working the defenders could drop and attack them as they are easy targets.

Think of the above idea similiar to the Ewok Village except instead of living in trees, it is skyscrapers.

All the while the community will not only be tending their crops and animals, they will also be foraging the items within the buildings and the surrounding areas and of course using the raw materials for their own manufacturing projects on the various middle floors.

Those are some of the ideas of how one could survive in a city.

As for getting the soil. Most cities are built atop good land. Simply break the concrete or dig into the basements of some of the other buildings and areas and take it from there, it should have been protected from any contaminants by whatever was built over it.

As for community gardens, yes alot of lots here in the Los Angeles area are turning into community gardens as well. Some legal, others not so legal. About two years ago there was one that was "illegal" and the owners wanted to actualy use it. That caused alot of comotion with the media and the activits. i mean how dare a property owner want to use his own property!

But Grae made a good point, how many people live in a city who would be able to manage and tend to crops and animals as well as manage resources and of course clear, build and defend them.

But, like I said, it would be cool. One just needs to withstand the initial turmoil and have the talent to do it.

[Matt W]

How about urban aquaculture (fish farming). AFAIK the Romans started this tradition in Europe - with carp in fishponds. In medieval times every monastery, manor and castle had ponds, moats etcetera stocked with fish.

The modern version would be 'aquaponics' where you combine fish farming with hydroponics. This needs very little space and the plants live off the fish waste-products.

check out youtube for a small-scale version known as "barrel-ponics". It uses an electric pump - but presumably this could be replaced by a worker with a bucket, or the Roman technique of dams and sluice gates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwMEulvJ2Ps

How about this scenario? In the T2K situation, indoor swimming pools become 'farming' assets for their town. The glass windows may have been shattered - but that just means raw material for the new (vegetable-growing) greenhouse while the old swimming pool is stocked with carp, trout or catfish.

[jester]

Yes, I mentioned that in my urban city in the sky idea a few posts ago, where former water tanks and swimming pools found atop many tall buildings would be converted to aquaculture. And yes, it is quite common to grow multiple things in aquaculture. An example, in the US South where they farm crawfish they also grow rice. Or should I say they raise crawfish in their rice fields yeilding about 2 harvests of the criters before they harvest the rice.

Other mollusks and crustatia can be farmed in similiar conditions, where one may grow water chestnut or cress, cattails and even cranberrys, one could toss in some carp, or even bass or catfish as well as snails and shrimp.

There are a few operations where they grow sturgeon in tanks that are about the size of a larger kiddie pool. And others where prawns are raised in a slightly deeper tank. So, it is entirely possible. Here is one for urban aquaculture: Turning the underground parking garage, or even the basement since these would most likely become flooded anyways into places to grow various water creatures like fish, shrimp and shellfish.

Here is another idea. Simply making an indoor aquarium or even a tank inside, using 1 solid brick wall, wotu either glass or plexiglass and caulk, or just another wall of bricks/cinderblock so you have a space of about 2 or 3 meters by the length of the wall that is say chest high thus allowing you access to fish, clean and refill the tank. A tank that size would also help stabilize the temperature in the room since water tends to absorbe heat and holds it a bit longer.

Another idea is the various cisterns that would be found to hold water could be used to do double duty for aquaculture as well.

[Mohoender]

Aquarium is a good idea but bathtubs might be the simplest options.

Transforming flat roof into gardens is of course a good solution but there is nevertheless a weak point to this. Several will ultimately fall down on your head as they are not built for that and as they will be damaged by the water (+ the additional weight). Therefore, if you want to do that, don't forget to do some transformations or be unforgiving with your PCs.

I like the idea of transforming basements and parking lots but I'm not sure it works. I would assume that most species need light but I might be wrong about that. However, basements would be perfect to grow mushrooms.

[jester]

Well, light can be let in by cutting holes in the roof of the basement or underground garage to let light in. Or if one has the ability light, or even phosphorecent light or even plants and fish. Remember, many fish operate at night when light is absent.

And of course as we said, childrens pools or those portable pools one can buy and set in their backyards would be well suited as well.

[Webstral]

Community Technology by Karl Hess has some good ideas for small, sustainable communities in urban settings.

Webstral

[Mohoender]

And of course as we said, childrens pools or those portable pools one can buy and set in their backyards would be well suited as well.

They already end up as fishing pools toward the end of summer, fill up by storms and colonized by frogs. At least ours end up like this every summer.:D

[Webstral]

The above ideas for utilizing urban space for food production are almost all quite good, and I feel they have a place in Twilight: 2000. The single greatest drawback, I believe, is that all of these ideas require a few things that will be in short supply in at least the United States in 1997. Provided some preconditions can be met, virtually all of the ideas above can be put into practice in at least some locations, if not many locations. As usual, I’m going to address conditions in the United States, as I don’t feel qualified to offer any but the most generalized ideas on the situation in other countries.

The first precondition is sufficient order. In the first year after the TDM, there will be a lot of desperate fools running around who are more interested in taking what others might have than in producing for themselves. Fire is a danger that goes hand-in-hand with civil disorder. There are lots of options for dealing with the disorder, but it has to be dealt with before any sustained food production can be undertaken.

The second precondition is stocks. Survivors need seed. Tools for intensive gardening, which is essentially what we’re talking about in a city, can be improvised. Seed cannot. This problem isn’t insurmountable, but again it has to be addressed if urban cultivation is to occur. By the same token, livestock must be procured from someplace if it’s going to be raised in an urban environment. The livestock is going to need to eat, too. How does one acquire chickens, rabbits (sigh), catfish, or crawfish in a post-Exchange American city? There are answers, but we’ll need to provide them for the scenario to be believable.

Going hand-in-hand with the issue of civil disorder, livestock is going to be a prime target for hungry survivors. Those who have chickens or ducks or whatever are going to have to fight for them or be very clever about concealing them.

Water is another critical issue. After the TDM, electricity for pumping water will be out right across the country. People and crops need water, and they can’t go without it for very long. I have a bad habit of letting two or three days go by without watering my container tomatoes. The rainy season hasn’t started in California, so the only water those tomatoes are going to get comes from my hose. What would I do if the water were out? The same applies to everything in my garden. In cities that get rain year-round, such as those cities east of the 100th Meridian, it may be possible to rely on a combination of rainfall and improvised cisterns. Throughout much of the American West, however, rainfall is both seasonal and scanty. The more the solution to acquiring water in these places depends on civil order, planning, cooperation, etc., the less likely the solution is to be executed. Albuquerque is in a much tougher spot than Cincinnati.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I’m not saying that any of the proposed ideas for producing food in urban areas aren’t viable. I’m saying that opportunities have to exist. Crawfish are only going to be successfully farmed in places where the situation is not so chaotic as to preclude farming or animal husbandry, where there are crawfish to be found and kept alive during the initial turbulence, where there are adequate facilities (possibly the least restrictive requirement), where fresh water is available in sufficient quantity, and where food can be provided for the crawfish before they are eaten. The same goes for urban corn, albeit with a slightly modified list.

As a consequence of all this, I think we have to look back at the timeframe between July, 1997 and November, 1997. What was really going on in the US during this time? Howling Wilderness would have us believe that the American population was more-or-less caught by surprise by the nuclear attacks on US soil. To the degree that it is possible to make a sweeping generalization of the frame of mind of a nation of 280 million, what were Americans really thinking? I’ve been writing a piece to address this timeframe, based on a careful reading of the rhythms of nuclear weapons use from July through November, 1997. I’ll try to summarize here by saying that I strongly doubt the nation was sitting on its collective hands during this time. Some people would be, of course. Denial is a powerful coping mechanism. However, the first use of nuclear weapons would have prompted a strong reaction. I don’t believe the nation (or any nation) would have found itself nearly as unprepared as if a nuclear attack had come out of the blue.

Thunder Empire is an extreme case of preparedness. I have been trying to justify why the whole place didn’t blow away in the wind with my lengthy narratives on how certain characters drove contingency planning after the start of the Sino-Soviet War. Southeastern Arizona needs that kind of lead time in order to make it. Other parts of the country—particularly the Midwest—will be better suited to a more Johnny-come-lately response. Five months isn’t enough time to start an effective State Guard from scratch, but it is enough time to affect public awareness about what to do in the event of a crisis. Ergo, many of the food-production solutions proposed in earlier posts are entirely plausible on a case-by-case basis—even where otherwise hard-to-imagine developments involving stockpiles of seed or livestock (poor bunnies) are involved.

Webstral

[jester]

Web:

I think there will always be some crafty critters who survive and when the pressure comes off <like most of the anarchy crazed hoardes move on or die off> will rememerge and start to repopulate an area. Others, will wander and move into these now areas or ranges. This is quite common with animals. It is sorta like animal over population, where competition exists, they wander looking for greener pastures with less pressure for resources. And it is in the once over hunted areas that a few years ago thronged with survivors but when there was no longer food the people died/left, now the animals reclaim it.

As for seed, they shall become a comodity, a valuable resource and mayber even its own currency. Although, some plants grow wild and could be cultivated.

Water, yes some areas will be a problem. I propose that a city like Los Angeles would have its problems. However, alot of areas near the coast where we get lots of fog will be able to survive with moisture from the fog and mist and dew. That is what eneables the giant redwoods to thrive. And then cisterns and rainwater catches and I would even say pumps, elevators and simply manhandling the water. Filling a tank of water from a flooded underground garage to the second floor on monday. Tuesday you haul it to the 4th or 5th floor, Wed to the 6th or 7th, Thurs to the 8th or 9th, Fri to the 10th or 11th and so on and so on. A person can haul about 10 gallons a trip, 10 minutes a trip, so 60 gallons an hour, do it for two hours could net 120 gallons. Or, a elevator hauling 55 gallon drums or even an old hand pump.

One could channel water from one of the numberous springs from the L.A. river into an underground garage where it would pool out of sight. Of course building the system would be the thing to do without notice.

Here is a question. How many of us really consider water in our campaigns? I mean, how bad would the water systems be between nuclear and chemical/bio weapons as well as politions, and contamination with disease? If that is the case, then wouldn't water be a much bigger problem?

[Webstral]

Regarding chemical contamination of water supplies, I honestly have avoided attempting to model the problem. In one of my previous lives, I was a hazardous materials manager. Hazmat is ubiquitous. The sheer quantity of chemicals that would be released following the breakdown of society beggars the imagination.

Webstral

[Webstral]

Water, yes some areas will be a problem. I propose that a city like Los Angeles would have its problems. However, alot of areas near the coast where we get lots of fog will be able to survive with moisture from the fog and mist and dew. That is what eneables the giant redwoods to thrive. And then cisterns and rainwater catches and I would even say pumps, elevators and simply manhandling the water. Filling a tank of water from a flooded underground garage to the second floor on monday. Tuesday you haul it to the 4th or 5th floor, Wed to the 6th or 7th, Thurs to the 8th or 9th, Fri to the 10th or 11th and so on and so on. A person can haul about 10 gallons a trip, 10 minutes a trip, so 60 gallons an hour, do it for two hours could net 120 gallons. Or, a elevator hauling 55 gallon drums or even an old hand pump.

One could channel water from one of the numberous springs from the L.A. river into an underground garage where it would pool out of sight.

A number of crafty inventions would make life easier. An Archimedes screw would serve well if attached to a stationary bicycle frame and a gear system for transferring the motion of pedaling to a system for turning the screw. The truly motivated might go so far as to install a tank on the top floor and a windmill to transfer wind energy to the gear system for turning the screw, plus a cut-off device for preventing overflow. Any halfway decent mechanic could manage such a thing.

Alternatively, a bucket with a pulley and counterweight could raise considerable quantities of water for a low calorie count.

Lots of possibilities present themselves, once sufficient order exists to implement them.

Webstral

[Graebarde]

That's not strictly true, Graebarde, when you were a kid it was all hunter gathering, agriculture hadn't really been invented in those days...:)

ROTFLMAO
Boy am I slow off the mark... But you know it might come back to that in some resepects, though the game will playout pretty dang fast, though they (game) are smarter than the urban hunters seeking them in most cases.

[simonmark6]

Now that is true, in fact the easiest prey for city folk is city folk, we'll start off with looting and eventually some gang will work out that as their victims are going to starve anyway, they might as well eat them.

Thus leading back to another thread on TK2 cuisine...

[Webstral]

Urban farming probably would be very subsistence in nature. At the turn of the (20th) century in the US, four farmers could feed ten people. I’m not clear on whether those four farmers were feeding themselves and six others or themselves and ten others. Obviously, there’s a big difference. However, even if we go with the smaller figure, forty percent of the population is producing food while sixty percent is doing something else. Urban farming probably would produce even smaller surpluses—at least while the experience base was building.

We’ve discussed ratios of farmers to non-farmers before, but I believe it’s a key factor in determining what the post-Exchange societies are like. According to Howling Wilderness, somewhat more than half of the pre-war US population is dead by January 2001. I won’t debate whether this figure is realistic other than to observe that the survival rate varies enormously from place to place. Colorado is supposed to have 90% of its pre-war population, while according to Howling Wilderness Arizona, New Mexico, and Nevada are virtual wastelands. Even in my considerably more optimistic Thunder Empire, only twenty percent of pre-war Arizonans are alive in January 2001; about 60% of the survivors live in the three counties in the southeastern part of the state.

Mind, I’m not knocking subsistence farming. The more folks survive to more stable times, the quicker the march back up the ladder of progress will be by, say, 2010. Really, that has been one of the main points of Thunder Empire; the goal of the leadership has been to keep as many Americans alive while the post-Exchange situation sorts itself out. In due time, improved practices should result in more efficient farming methods and an increase in the non-farming population. I guess I’m supporting Mo’s thesis that urban farmers supplement, while the majority of the food comes in from outside the urban area in a reproduction of the situation in Krakow.

Webstral

[Targan]

Now that is true, in fact the easiest prey for city folk is city folk, we'll start off with looting and eventually some gang will work out that as their victims are going to starve anyway, they might as well eat them.

Thus leading back to another thread on TK2 cuisine...

And also leading back to a post I made (about using tallow as biodiesel) in the Alternative Fuels thread. The more people you kill the more you get to eat and the further you can drive. Nasty.

[WallShadow]

If we have dared to borrow from GDW's other lines of RPGs (Dark Conspiracy, 2300 AD, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs) why not steal, errr, creatively mimic one of the backbone technologies of Space: 1889, the Solar boiler, or in this case, solar concentrator.
The stage is set:
The Duke is sending out raiding parties for very odd items: satellite dishes and mounts ("Duke must have a link to the Mil-Gov ComNet"); mirrors of all kinds, even pieces of broken ones ("to defend against the Vampires, of course!"), Spotlights from the Broadway theaters ("He's gonna use them to hunt the dements/Mayor's troops/Dragons/Dragon Lords/River Vikings at night!", and rear-projection TV sets ("Hey, mebbe he's gonna show movies or sumpthin' to the Downtowners? I dunno...")

What the Duke IS gonna do is make as many mirror-lined satellite dish collectors that he can, and mount them on buildings that oversee rooftop gardens. By maneuvering the collectors, additional hours and concentrations of insolation may be applied to the plants struggling with the adverse growing conditions. Adding the Fresnel lenses from the spotlights and rear projection TVs will enable the users to concentrate the light even more, turning the parabolic collectors into giant magnifying glasses, which might, when multiple units are focused on a single target in a sort of solar furnace mode, might conveniently burst into flame or collapse from hyperthermia, or be blinded by the concentrated glare. Nice weapon for a sunny day?

This sort of focused sunlight can be made to power a boiler for a small steam engine, or to boil water to purify it, or to cook food without fuel or smoke, or....

Large solar furnaces can generate temperatures of up to 6330 F, but even small, crude ones may reach over 2000 F.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_furnace
Thought just crossed my mind--what if a solar furnace caught the flash from a nuke on a clear day?

[mikeo80]

I think what you would find after TDM here in the USA is a lot of small, family size gardens. One of the MAJOR issues, as I see it, is/was/will be the THANKSGIVING DAY Massacre.....

Think about the timing for a moment. Thanksgiving day is the fourth Thursday in November. If you are any where north of the Carolinas, you have a small problem with growing anything. It's called winter......

PLUS both v1 and v2.2 mention an extremely cold winter after TDM....

So even in the southern states, growing anything outside is going to be iffy at best.

May be, if you are REALLY LUCKY and skilled, you could rig a green house for some planting over the winter.

More realistic, you have to wait until spring. Then hope you have enough skills to manage a small garden. AND you have enough food to last until the crop matures. AND you can keep the bad guys out of your garden. Both the four legged and two legged varieties. (The squrells and rabbits end up in the soup pot!! That is why God invented the .22!! :p)

IF you manage all of this...then come summer, you finnally get to eat a good meal.

My wife is a wizard when it comes to growing things. IF I can keep her alive, then we have a chance. Me, I have the proverbial black thumb. I kill cactus.

I would think a crop of sweet potatoes (Grows very well here in NC) and soy beans (Ditto) would be the answer. May be a small herb garden for trading??

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

I think what you would find after TDM here in the USA is a lot of small, family size gardens. One of the MAJOR issues, as I see it, is/was/will be the THANKSGIVING DAY Massacre.....

Think about the timing for a moment. Thanksgiving day is the fourth Thursday in November. If you are any where north of the Carolinas, you have a small problem with growing anything. It's called winter......

PLUS both v1 and v2.2 mention an extremely cold winter after TDM....

Which dovetails nicely into the books where it states a large proportion of the wars casualties weren't from the nukes themselves. We know bullets and bombs do a lot of damage, but starving mobs are in my opinion at least, probably nearly as destructive as a nuke when searching for food, shelter and medicines. At a guess, casualties after the nukes will be mainly from conflicts between those who have not, and those who have, or even just perceived to have.

A "fun" time to be alive.... :(

Those who survive until the 1998 harvest are going to be the toughest of the tough and have likely done some pretty damn horrific things to stay alive over that first winter and spring. By 2000-2001 not too many squeamish types will be left and trusting anyone outside your immediate circle of survivors will be a thing of the past.

[mikeo80]

Those who survive until the 1998 harvest are going to be the toughest of the tough and have likely done some pretty damn horrific things to stay alive over that first winter and spring. By 2000-2001 not too many squeamish types will be left and trusting anyone outside your immediate circle of survivors will be a thing of the past.

I agree with this sentiment. Which leads me to an interesting question. How could MilGov or CivGov even survive?

It seems to me that any one who survives TDM and the aftermath, did so on their own or with a VERY small group of like minded individuals. This is not the stuff of nation building. At least, not yet.

It seems to me that if MilGov or CivGov comes to me and mine, the first response is "And just what the F*** did you do for us when we needed help. We survived with out you then. We will survive with out you now. Leave. NOW."

Mil Gov would have an advantage in this type of discussion. They do control most of the existing military assets. A small bunch of survivors is going to have a difficult time saying "NO" to a squad of soldiers in a M113/V150/name your favorite light armored vehicle. But Mil Gov does have to tred lightly. They can kill only so many "traitors" before there is no one else to rule.

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

There are indications in the books that military units were used for civil relief missions in the nuke aftermath. Those areas which received this assistance are likely to be favourable to the government. As most of these units then sided with Milgov, Civgov is definitely in the weaker position with only a handful of areas coming on board with the units they gain. Civgov does have the advantage in the PR war though as much of their governmental manpower is likely to have been involved with politics at some point, while Milgovs leadership is much more used to simply issuing orders and having them obeyed without having to convince those under it's power (the military) that they a) know what they're doing and b) it's in their best interests. Civilians are more likely therefore to resent Milgov control and over time drift towards Civgov sympathies. This is likely to take a few years though.

Milgov will have to either learn a little "tact" or expect to loose supporters (unless they use more and more authoritarian methods).

However, generally the populace will support the organisation which is putting food in their bellies and a roof over their head no matter how harshly they may be treated. If martial law and curfews is what's required to keep you from starving, it's a small concession to make...

Milgov may also have the leg up on Civgov during reconstruction s they're less likely to care about how the people feel. If a civil engineering task needs to be done, they'll simply assign those people necessary to the task to it. If farmland needs tilling, crops weeded or harvested, then manpower will be made available.

Civgov on the other hand will need to be more "diplomatic" about things, lacking both military manpower to force the people, and generally being fundamentally opposed to such heavy handedness.

Getting back to the topic of the thread, it would therefore seem likely small plots of land under crops would be more common in Civgov controlled regions where government controls are lacking (in comparison) and large scale operations harder to organise.

[rcaf_777]

I think with the lead up to Nuclear Exchange you could Victory Gardens coming back


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Victory-garden.jpg

[Legbreaker]

Given combat had only been happening for 7-8 months before nukes were used, would that really be likely on a wide scale?
Also, up until the first nukes were fired, Nato was holding the upper hand and actually winning!

[mikeo80]

Given combat had only been happening for 7-8 months before nukes were used, would that really be likely on a wide scale?
Also, up until the first nukes were fired, Nato was holding the upper hand and actually winning!

I agree with Leg. In both v1 and v2.2, NATO had pushed the Soviet armies to the Polish - Soviet border.

I also think that once the first nuke went off, there would be utter panic here in the USA. Absolute chaos as there would be a run on the banks, then the supermarkets, then the gun stores, then the hardware stores, then the gas stations. Or some variation. This might not be the EXACT order...but I think you get my drift.

The highways out of the major cities would shut down after about 15 - 20 minutes of panic exodus. There would have to be martial law almost immediately after the first announcement of the nukes going "BANG".

The riots for food, guns, medicine, etc would probably be about an hour or so after the first BANG. Once the general populace realizes that there is NO way out of the cities, the gloves come off. Civil order would probably colapse with in an hour of the start of the riots as the police, national guard, and etc. would be overwhelmed VERY quickly. I think that the civilian authorities would HAVE to use deadly force just to try and save a few. (Read themselves. IMHO, the average politician has the survival instinct of a rat leaving a sinking ship.)

Against the backdrop of utter insanity, the few of us who prepaired would be doing our best to "get down and stay down". And we would be praying that whatever we had done to get ready for the nightmare is enough.

Enough of my sunshine and pleasant thoughts for today. I will get down off of the soapbox.

My $0.02

Mike

[WallShadow]

Considering the descriptions of the exploding populations of pigeons, rats, and roaches in the depopulated (by humans, that is) city, it is time to examine methods of harvesting these bounties.

First, pigeons.
Canon has it that huge flocks of hundreds, even thousands of pigeons have flocked together and often find nesting areas in the large empty galleries whose windows have been blown out. These flocks are described as darkening the skies when they are startled into flight.
Solution: scout out the roosting places. Construct large strong nets to be suspended over the openings to the roosting areas--fishing line, nylon cording, anything that is nearly invisible but strong. After the nets are quietly rigged and the roost has accumulated a large population, throw in a couple of firecrackers or their homemade equivalent to spook the birds into fleeing their shelter--right into the dropped netting, which captures large numbers of them with minimal damage. At this phase the decision becomes, "How many to eat, how many to smoke/preserve, how many to keep for breeding/eggs, and how many to trade?" The Duke might send mating pairs as gifts to entice independent (but hungry) enclaves into joining him. Oh, yeah--pigeon manure is among the most nutrient-rich manures available. So the the Duke, trying to wring out every calorie from his intensive gardening efforts, will have working crews scraping up and saving every jot and tittle of pigeon poop, then wetting the floors with clean water and sopping up the dissolved nutrients ("pigeon tea") to add to the soil. Imagine the rumors _that_ will generate about the mental state of the Downtown ruler. :rolleyes: And don't forget the feathers and down for pillows or insulating clothing or quilts

Next, rats. One of the narrative bits has a chilling encounter with swarming, chittering, squealing masses of rats in a sewer. Another passage describes rats en masse trying to escape a flooding tunnel. Well, if they are so eager to run through small passages and pipes, why not build some diversion ductwork to pipe off a stream of eager-to-escape rats, with the outflow end depositing the rodents into a gnaw-proof container? Think a 3-dimensional fish seine. Again, a push at the far end of things will motivate the rats into fleeing down the wide end of the funnel(s) that will bring them to the harvesters. And the meat isn't the only benefit from the wee beasties-- you get furs, small though they be, and bones, which can be dried and ground up for soil amendments.

Last,Roaches. Even fried in olive oil with garlic, roaches would not be the first choice in protein sources. In fact, they approach infinity minus 1 in numerical order of what I'd choose. (I can just see Jay Leno with a bag of crispy-fried roaches in Nacho Cheese flavor--"Crunch all you want--we'll breed more!":eek:) However they ARE full of protein, so why waste them? Just feed them to your pigeons, chickens, rats, or other insectivore food sources.

[Webstral]

I also think that once the first nuke went off, there would be utter panic here in the USA. Absolute chaos as there would be a run on the banks, then the supermarkets, then the gun stores, then the hardware stores, then the gas stations. Or some variation. This might not be the EXACT order...but I think you get my drift.

Several years ago, I drafted a piece on the effects of the various nuclear scares on the United States. I never finished it for lack of time. Essentially, I looked at the various scares and their effects on public order, etc. I started with the outbreak of the Sino-Soviet War and built from there through every juncture at which nukes might have been used. The most significant of these, which occurs on 09 JUL 97, I call the Alarm. Basically, this is a dress rehearsal for the effects of the Thanksgiving Day Massacre (which we know actually lasts a week or so). [Actually, Howling Wilderness calls this event the Thanksgiving Massacre, not the Thanksgiving Day Massacre.]

The good news about these scares is that they give the forces of law and order a chance to see how things might go in the real event. They also lead to a United States that is somewhat better prepared than Howling Wilderness would have us believe. Some folks are determined to pretend all is well, to be sure. The future Shogun in Nevada is in Las Vegas when the Exchange catches up with CONUS. But the effects of the Alarm in July would be absolutely unavoidable. The first use of nuclear weapons, followed by a general Sino-Soviet exchange, would see an unprecedented breakdown of law and order in the US. Rioting and crime of every description, along with mass flight from the cities and all the horrors entailed by having millions of motorists jammed onto the highways leading out of the major cities, could not help but wake the US out of the most determined torpor. Contingency planning would go into high gear. Even soccer moms might get sensible once they got the idea that their kids really were at risk.

[Targan]

Several years ago, I drafted a piece on the effects of the various nuclear scares on the United States. I never finished it for lack of time.

I'm pretty sure you posted some of that on this forum. It's certainly ringing some bells for me.

[Legbreaker]

The major problem with cockroaches is the MASSIVE amount of bacteria and other nasties they carry about on their exoskeleton. Internally they're fine to eat, but they'd have to be intensively cleaned and treated before they could be considered even partially safe to feed to the starving masses (probably dried and ground down into meal and turned into a sort of porridge first though to hide what it really is).

[mikeo80]

I'm pretty sure you posted some of that on this forum. It's certainly ringing some bells for me.

I, for one, would like to read your thoughts. You stated the same ideas that I put down. Although I am sure that your ideas are better stated and logically developed. Mine are thoughts that have developed over the years as I watch and try to learn.

My $0.02

Mike

[TrailerParkJawa]

Water is another critical issue. After the TDM, electricity for pumping water will be out right across the country. People and crops need water, and they can’t go without it for very long. I have a bad habit of letting two or three days go by without watering my container tomatoes. The rainy season hasn’t started in California, so the only water those tomatoes are going to get comes from my hose. What would I do if the water were out? The same applies to everything in my garden. In cities that get rain year-round, such as those cities east of the 100th Meridian, it may be possible to rely on a combination of rainfall and improvised cisterns. Throughout much of the American West, however, rainfall is both seasonal and scanty. The more the solution to acquiring water in these places depends on civil order, planning, cooperation, etc., the less likely the solution is to be executed. Albuquerque is in a much tougher spot than Cincinnati.

Webstral

For much of California is only rains between October and May at best. So a city like Sacramento that is next to a big river could have at least some access to water.

But where I'm at in North San Jose there is a creek like 1000ft away. But it tends to completely dry up this time of year. The Guadalupe is about 2 miles away but thats a long way for water unless things are fairly stable.

I see any urban farming as supplemental and not primary sources of agriculture. That not to say water can't be found, Silicon Valley used to have some of the best orchards in the world so the weather and soils are good. Its just how to get the water. They pumped alot of the ground water out in the early 1900's. In the 70's and 80's they contanimated alot of it. Now, its all paved over.

[mikeo80]

For much of California is only rains between October and May at best. So a city like Sacramento that is next to a big river could have at least some access to water.

But where I'm at in North San Jose there is a creek like 1000ft away. But it tends to completely dry up this time of year. The Guadalupe is about 2 miles away but thats a long way for water unless things are fairly stable.

I see any urban farming as supplemental and not primary sources of agriculture. That not to say water can't be found, Silicon Valley used to have some of the best orchards in the world so the weather and soils are good. Its just how to get the water. They pumped alot of the ground water out in the early 1900's. In the 70's and 80's they contanimated alot of it. Now, its all paved over.

Here in North Carolina, rain is more frequent. I can capture rain water from the roof.

AS far as surface water is concerned, there are several small streams and ponds within 2 -3 miles of the house. I agree with TPJ, 2 -3 miles is a LONG way if the surrounding area is not secure.

Urban farming is, at best, a survival technique. It is for those of us who live in a city, and do not want to/can not evacuate. I live in a relatively small city, Fayetteville, NC. And, on top of that, the area where I live are the "suburbs" of Fayetteville. My preference is to shelter in place. All of my "stuff" is here in the house. As we have discussed, if there is a nuke exchange ANYWHERE in the world, the massive panic here in the USA will result in mega casualties. I want to stay put. If at all possible.

Depending on the breaks, and also just how BIG WWIII gets to, Fayetteville might not catch a "present" from the other side of the world.

My $0.02

Mike

[Webstral]

Survival is the name of the game. Keeping as many people alive as possible is what it's all about in the years immediately following the Exchange. In the long run, Fort Huachuca is going to become a backwater again because the water needed for labor-effective agriculture just isn't available. In the meantime, though, intensive gardening-style agriculture can keep a lot of folks alive until local agriculture can start producing a sufficient surplus to release labor from the land to rebuild the economy.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Do you guys have an opinion on clearing urban areas for agriculture? It's easy to plant vegetables in front or backyards or in parks. But what about digging up asphalt? There is a a lot of very productive lands that are now paved over.

Without gasoline it seems to be this activity would take more a calories than could be recovered if clearing the asphalt by hand. What do u think?

[Capt_Bowman]

A well laid road is several feet thick of tarmac (base coat, wear coat) and levels of coarse and fine stone. You might also then have fuel / oil contamination of the underlying soil if the road is old and has been in use for years... that is assuming the bulk of the topsoil was not removed as part of the construction process.

I suspect you'd reclaim parks, gardens, median strips and the like before you started breaking up roads.

But that is just my view and based on UK roads.

[WallShadow]

I see a lot of container and possibly raised bed gardening at first, until the concrete is pulled up from the sidewalks. Hydroponics may be a good standby, if nutrients can be obtained.
I wonder if anyone has thought to raid the sewage treatment plants on Manhattan to haul away the processed, digested sewage sludge, which is used as a soil amendment. This could produce another rumor to the effect that the Duke's lost his freakin' mind: "...And they were willing to _pay_us to get that processed human _crap_! :eek: What the hell is the Duke gonna DO with that stuff???"

[Webstral]

Rabbit manure creates an acceptable hydroponic soup (I can’t remember the proper term off the top of my head). You put a quantity of the pills in water, shake it, and let the solution stand for a period of time. The water column then can be poured off and used to nourish plants hydroponically for several days. Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary. The beauty of this is that the bulk of rabbits’ diet is grass. You can turn vegetable matter unsuitable for human consumption into vegetable matter suitable for human consumption, as well as some meat and pelt. There is a labor component to gathering the grass for the rabbits. They also can heat a greenhouse, and they do nicely in temperatures down to freezing.

They also lick your nose, teach your children compassion, and provide your wife with an alternative outlet for her tirades.

[mikeo80]

They also lick your nose, teach your children compassion, and provide your wife with an alternative outlet for her tirades.

That might be true...

Until you have to inform the wee one's that Mr. Fluffy is the main course for dinner.... :mad:

A friend of mine introduced my wife and self to roast rabbit...Everything was fine...until wife caught wind that the cute bunnies in friends back yard were providing dinner...Ugly is not the proper word....

My $0.02

Mike

[Targan]

A friend of mine introduced my wife and self to roast rabbit...Everything was fine...until wife caught wind that the cute bunnies in friends back yard were providing dinner...Ugly is not the proper word...

So most of the time your wife does her best not to think about where meat comes from? I suspect 95% or more of westerners do the same. Personally, I'm comfortable with the idea of killing something because I want to eat it. Killing it quickly and cleanly is, of course, preferred.

No disrespect to your wife (this isn't directed specifically at her) but I think people who wouldn't be prepared to kill, gut and skin an animal before cooking it probably should become vegetarians.

[Jason Weiser]

I don't think most folks think about it Targan. Then again, I saw a pig get slaughtered for a family freind's communion. They were poor Spanish farmers, so it was knife meet throat. I saw it at 6, didn't bother me, and I ate pork afterwards. My wife? She didn't take well when she went to a farm recently with freinds and found out dinner has a face. I blame the schools....:D

[Webstral]

If the worst that happens to me after a nuclear exchange is that I eat my rabbits, I'll feel pretty good.

[Webstral]

I don't think most folks think about it Targan. Then again, I saw a pig get slaughtered for a family freind's communion. They were poor Spanish farmers, so it was knife meet throat. I saw it at 6, didn't bother me, and I ate pork afterwards. My wife? She didn't take well when she went to a farm recently with freinds and found out dinner has a face. I blame the schools....:D

There are some school textbooks provided by the meat industry in which hamburger patties are shown growing like corn.

[Legbreaker]

There are some school textbooks provided by the meat industry in which hamburger patties are shown growing like corn.

Now that is just WRONG! How does anyone get away with that sort of deception? I'm all for blurring reality a little so the kids aren't scarred for life, but anything more than hiding the blood spatter on the killing room walls is going a bit too far in my opinion.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a few T bone steak plants for my back garden if anyone's got a few spare seeds... :p

[Webstral]

The US has a weird relationship with public education. We resent having to pay for something we believe ought to be available for free. We want high home resale values, but we decry property taxes, which fund public education, as the tools of the Devil and/or socialism. Many of those without children complain bitterly that they shouldn't have to chip in for public schooling. Consequently, schools are often short of funds. Enter private industry, which closes the gap with some strings attached. Soda machines got into the schools because the distributors paid a fee. Textbooks like the ones in question get into the schools because they are provided for free. I could go on and on about the wretched hypocrisy of our attitude towards public education. It's little wonder that private education is thriving--especially here in California. Thank goodness Finland and Singapore are too small and distant to provide a real challenge.

[WallShadow]

ISTR that in the 2300AD universe, the meat ranches on the planet Aurore raised rabbit, guinea pig, and hamster....

[Webstral]

Back on topic, a good greenhouse can extend the growing season by more than 30 days at either end of the normal season. In some locations, this is the difference between having a growing season and not having a growing season. A good greenhouse can provide passive solar gain if it's attached to the south side of a house. Getting greenhouses built after the nuclear exchange is a bit of a trick, though. Still, necessity is the mother of invention and improvisation. A half-baked greenhouse is far superior to no greenhouse.

New England of 2000 has many such half-baked greenhouses. In southern Vermont, the Black Watch started as a survivalist group that ended up taking over the two southernmost counties. Pre-war, they did their homework on down-and-dirty greenhouses, which can be constructed from scraps and salvage. Unlike SAMAD, where most of the agricultural labor works on small intensive outdoor garden plots and the resource in shortest supply is water, in New England the scarcest resources are good soil for growing crops and days of the growing season. Greenhouses get around this problem by extending the growing season and by offering either intensive soil beds or hydroponics beds. One reason why the Blood Cross, a super-sized marauder band called a horde, is such a problem is that they have a tendency to raze everything in their path. Without the greenhouses (or their houses), the 30% of New England’s population still alive can’t make it another year.

[mikeo80]

So most of the time your wife does her best not to think about where meat comes from? I suspect 95% or more of westerners do the same. Personally, I'm comfortable with the idea of killing something because I want to eat it. Killing it quickly and cleanly is, of course, preferred.

No disrespect to your wife (this isn't directed specifically at her) but I think people who wouldn't be prepared to kill, gut and skin an animal before cooking it probably should become vegetarians.

I agree that the Mrs. has no "clue" as to where the chicken, tuna and other goodies she likes so much comes from. I mean intelectually, she knows that cow=steak. That knowledge just does not come up for thought/discussion.

No disrespect understood. Wife is about 80% vegan any way. She much prefers a salad/veggies over meat.

Me, I am the omnivore of the house. I see food, I eat it. (Waist line to prove it. Sigh.) How ever, I also believe that the human race spent 2+ million years getting to the top of the food chain. I'm going to enjoy it!!!! :D

I agree with the idea of if you want to eat it, you should catch/kill/skin/cook.

However, as a city boy, that opportunity does not arise often. I never saw live pigs/cows/chickens until well into my 20's. You just do not see those kind of critters in downtown Philadelphia. :p

My $0.02

Mike

[Legbreaker]

You just do not see those kind of critters in downtown Philadelphia. :p

Rats and pigeons on the other hand... ;)

[mikeo80]

Rats and pigeons on the other hand... ;)

Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife" :p

My $0.02

Mike

[WallShadow]

Quote:
"Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Rats and pigeons on the other hand...
Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife"

My $0.02--Mike "

Yeah, but from my impressions on the indigenous feral bipedals prowling the City of Brotherly Love, cleaning them would be a real challenge, and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

[Legbreaker]

...and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

Are you knocking the "extra flavour" they provide? :o

[mikeo80]

Are you knocking the "extra flavour" they provide? :o

Leg,

You are a sick, evil, twisted fellow!!! :D

In other words, you fit right in !!!! :p

ROTF,LMAO

My $0.02

Mike

[mikeo80]

Quote:
"Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Rats and pigeons on the other hand...
Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife"

My $0.02--Mike "

Yeah, but from my impressions on the indigenous feral bipedals prowling the City of Brotherly Love, cleaning them would be a real challenge, and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

Yea, it's the rounding up and corraling the feral bi-peds...

Always a challange.

My $0.02

Mike

[TrailerParkJawa]

Back on topic, a good greenhouse can extend the growing season by more than 30 days at either end of the normal season. In some locations, this is the difference between having a growing season and not having a growing season. A good greenhouse can provide passive solar gain if it's attached to the south side of a house. Getting greenhouses built after the nuclear exchange is a bit of a trick, though. Still, necessity is the mother of invention and improvisation. A half-baked greenhouse is far superior to no greenhouse.

r.

Agreed, I think jury rigged green houses would we well within the range of survivors salvaging materials from empty structures. Even in a place lie California with lots of sun greenhouses would still be critical for the winter months.

[TrailerParkJawa]

A well laid road is several feet thick of tarmac (base coat, wear coat) and levels of coarse and fine stone. You might also then have fuel / oil contamination of the underlying soil if the road is old and has been in use for years... that is assuming the bulk of the topsoil was not removed as part of the construction process.

I suspect you'd reclaim parks, gardens, median strips and the like before you started breaking up roads.

But that is just my view and based on UK roads.

Intuitively I've always felt it would be easier to dig up parking lots or sidewalks. But I never thought of much about the depth of the concrete or the underlying structure. I would imagine that freeways like we have here int the States would just get left alone.

[Webstral]

I've always thought the Isolationists would be avid greenhouse types. With limited growing space (given the urban nature of Providence) but what seems to be an adequate supply of at least certain types of expertise, the Isolationists would construct as many greenhouses as possible. Unfortunately, given the separatist nature of the Isolationists, other New England survivors wouldn't be able to draw on their expertise.

[WallShadow]

The last few weeks I've been brainstorming Urban Farming, New York City, the gold, the Duke, the Mayor, the Acting Mayor, the Harbor Rats, firetrucks, solar power and lots of things that are apparently coming together--I'm going to compile my notes to see if I have enough stuff to put together an adventure/source book for the Big Apple, post- AoTN; and since "Rotten to the Core" has already been used for the 2300 franchise, my working title is "Beside the Golden Door"

Set a year or two from the original Armies of the Night, I'm going to have to figure out who lived, who died, what (if anything) happened to the gold, who is in power and who is out of favor, how the political map has changed, what conditions the people are living under, and what internal and external forces are working on them. Is civilization returning or has the infighting sapped the recuperative energies of the surviving populace? I will also throw out a few surprises and twists. For instance, those rumors about just what _had_ been going on at those government labs on the eastern end of Long Island, what cargo did the chronically-ill fisherman haul over from the mainland under extreme secrecy, and just who _is_ "Old Tuck", really???:confused:

I hope I can keep my interest level up to where all this stuff gels and I can set it down in a cohesive and interesting format. Wish me luck!

[Webstral]

I hope I can keep my interest level up to where all this stuff gels and I can set it down in a cohesive and interesting format. Wish me luck!

Much luck! I have been trying to spend some time with a new idea for three weeks, and I haven't been able to put in more than a couple of hours of work. Very frustrating when I have a clear idea where everything is supposed to go.

[Legbreaker]

Intuitively I've always felt it would be easier to dig up parking lots or sidewalks. But I never thought of much about the depth of the concrete or the underlying structure. I would imagine that freeways like we have here int the States would just get left alone.

I watched a small car park (about 50 car spaces) paved about a year ago. The foundation layers alone (packed gravel and sand) were nearly 5 feet thick, and this was only designed to take the weight of the average car and occasional small truck!

[WallShadow]

I watched a small car park (about 50 car spaces) paved about a year ago. The foundation layers alone (packed gravel and sand) were nearly 5 feet thick, and this was only designed to take the weight of the average car and occasional small truck!

Which takes us back to container/raised bed gardening for anything not just a concrete slab (sidewalks). We're also edging past the reality that most structures throughout Manhattan or many cities have basements or cellars, the soil of which has been gone for generations.

Harking back to the roof garden/window box/greenhouse discussion, it seems the Duke is going to be doing his damndest to _create_ soil. I did a couple of Google searches and found a long list of things that can be composted, and, hence, turned into soil components. The aforementioned digested sewage sludge, drywall/gypsum wallboard/sheetrock, dust from vacuum cleaner bags, hair, sawdust...it goes on and on. And I can see the Duke, spurred on by an advisor who's into recycling/green revolution/Mother Earth News philosophy, leading campaigns and plots to obtain these oddball materials by cash, trade, theft, or violence.

[Graebarde]

Some interesting though on an 'old' thread brought back to life.

How's this for a cycle. I take no credit for it as I read about it on a homesteading site I think it was.

1. Rabbits in raised cages. Fed grass clippings, garden waste (ie greens and roots). Fecal waste falls through the screen bottom to box pit.

2. Worms raised in box pit below the rabbit cages. Worms turn waste into right nutrients for garden area. (can be pots or raised beds depending on space of course). Worms multiply (does NOT take a male and female worm as they are hermorphic IIRC). Worms are fed to fish and chickens.

3. Fish tank/barrel with talapia fish. (Should be large enought operation to raise fingerlings as well to have sustainable operation ideally.) Worms are fed to fish. (now I don't know how much other feed they were feeding, but the talapia are fast growing fish so you get lots of protien from small area,) Water from fish tank is 'nutrient rich' and used to apply to garden. Fish trimmings can be fed to chickens.

4. Chickens free ranged are best. They do NOT need a lot of grains etc if ranged. They are raised for eggs and meat, though probably not fryers but the old stew bird. Don't forget the rooster if you plan this. You can fence areas of garden and they will glean them, and fertilize as they go. The moveable yards with 'tractor coop' are probably better than the free range even, just more work. They also get scraps and some grains if available. Choose a dual purpose such as Rhode Island Red or Wyandotte.. heartier and more independent rangers than Leghorns..

An modest sized intensive garden will provide food for the average sized family (4 persons). But it takes work and LUCK... The time to start this project is NOT after the bomb goes off, but years before, or at least months.

The garden: legumes, corn, roots including potatoes, leafy vegetables, kohl, squash and melons, tomatoes and peppers, and what I call exotics of your choice (eggplant, endive, etc). Also sunflowers and perhaps if you have the space some millet (bird feed). Cereal crops are out except corn unless you have lots of space. However corn can provide a good bit of cereal from a relatively small space. (The Three Sisters or Trinity = corn, squash, and beans have been the 'Indians' staples for millenia and should be included space allowing).

Now if you have a LARGE place (say an acre or more) you could expand the above to include cereal crops such as wheat, oats, and/or barley. I would keep away from rye since it is prone to ergot (a fungus that replaces the kernals in the heads and is toxic. And it gets into the soil.) With the expansion I would add goats. The goats can survive on grass or brush, acutally preferring brush over grass. They provide milk and meat, as well as fertilizer and hides. Do not take on any animal enterprise you can not provide homegrown food for however is my recommendation. Being as self-sufficient as possible is the key. You can have three goats (providing 3-9 kids a year) for less feed than one cow (which MIGHT give one calf a year). Smaller animals eat less food duh.

But the time to start like I said is BEFORE.. getting the resouces AFTER the emergency is going to be difficult at best.

[WallShadow]

Imagine what the lucky fellow with an extensive herb garden would be able to barter for! Everybody knows that rat kabob always can use a little more garlic!

Graebarde, I like your concepts, except possibly for the worms--I'd use the worms to make more worms, then share out the excess to allies for them to have vermicompost populations. Worms as food stock is viable, but I see them as a minor component, at least until you have the breeding mass rolling.

Earthworms are your friends! So are bees and preying mantises! Anybody know anything about raising bees or mantises?

Another plus for free-ranging chickens (and ducks, and geese, and turkeys...) is vermin control--they eat quite a few bugs each day, converting those hard little roach carapaces into eggs and muscle mass. My mother-in-law lives in South Jersey, where they had a program that gave residents mating pairs of guinea hens, who eat a sizeable proportion of their own body weight in ticks each day. This put a big hole in the local tick population, reducing the chance of lyme disease greatly.

[Legbreaker]

Keeping said resources after hunger starts to bite will be problematic also.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Keeping said resources after hunger starts to bite will be problematic also.

In urban areas I think it would be impossible once law and order breaks down. There are simply too many people packed into too small of a space. But by 2000 survivors who backfill abandon urban spaces would have better luck in my opinion.

[Graebarde]

Imagine what the lucky fellow with an extensive herb garden would be able to barter for! Everybody knows that rat kabob always can use a little more garlic!

Graebarde, I like your concepts, except possibly for the worms--I'd use the worms to make more worms, then share out the excess to allies for them to have vermicompost populations. Worms as food stock is viable, but I see them as a minor component, at least until you have the breeding mass rolling.

Earthworms are your friends! So are bees and preying mantises! Anybody know anything about raising bees or mantises?

Another plus for free-ranging chickens (and ducks, and geese, and turkeys...) is vermin control--they eat quite a few bugs each day, converting those hard little roach carapaces into eggs and muscle mass. My mother-in-law lives in South Jersey, where they had a program that gave residents mating pairs of guinea hens, who eat a sizeable proportion of their own body weight in ticks each day. This put a big hole in the local tick population, reducing the chance of lyme disease greatly.

WHAT? You want to break the cycle? :D Actually this is a progression process, and worms would probably be a supplement. I agree worms are your friends, along with lacewings, ladybugs, dragonflys and a dozen other insects. I hate using insecticide as it kills the good with the bad. I never used it in my gardens. So what if there was a worm in one tomato? Or the green worms are on the plants.. pick them and feed them to the chickens.. watch the fun by throwing one at a time into the pen.... but that's another story.

Funny you mention guinea hens, The RV park I'm in has a flock of about a dozen or more that makes the rounds early or late in the day. They make excellent 'watch dogs' too as they will set up a ruckus when a stranger comes about. Should have heard the fuss when they spotted my heeler, and her reaction to something she's never seen before... it were funny.

My real suggestion is GET OUT OF THE CITY!!!.. Find a small community and some acerage.. one or two acres is LOTS of ground for basic subsistance, and a large backyard can be turned into a bountiful garden. Perhaps not enough for everything, but every bit helps. And it takes TIME (seasons) to get a garden area built up to produce high yields. Another thing to consider IF you garden.. use heirloom (non-hybrid) plants/seed, so you can keep seed from year to year. (The thing I miss about living in an RV now, but we are working towards a place to plant it long term with space for garden and small stock at least. Just have to get the septic fixed (Yuk at big bucks!!) and a well drilled for irrigation and backup for water system (More money) Then the solar panels... for electric supplement. More bucks!!! but worth it in the end. Solar will be transportable if we pull chocks too.)

[Graebarde]

Keeping said resources after hunger starts to bite will be problematic also.

THAT is a given I think anywhere within 150 miles or so of a city. BUT there are ways to 'hide in plain sight' too with some things. I think water will be more of a problem for city survival than food even in the long term. Along with the predetors and vermin. Hence.. GET OUT OF THE CITY!!!

[Legbreaker]

GET OUT OF THE CITY!!!
Absolutely agree. Those that move early and move far are mostly likely IMO to survive in the long term. Those that wait until the last minute will have nothing but the crumbs left by others to sustain them, unless they've squirrelled away a hell of a stockpile under the floorboards.

[Graebarde]

Absolutely agree. Those that move early and move far are mostly likely IMO to survive in the long term. Those that wait until the last minute will have nothing but the crumbs left by others to sustain them, unless they've squirrelled away a hell of a stockpile under the floorboards.

AGREE FULLY. I suggest EARLY, prewar as possible, to assimilate yourself into the community you choose to live in. I suggest a very rural community with decent services and good work ethics.. nothing like being an *out sider* when push comes to shove. Community is needed IMO for the survival because of the strenght in numbers for food production as much as defense, but there is a diminishing return on numbers as well, but there a numberous small farm/ranch communities fifty miles or more from a city, you just have to search for them. Yes I know, that life is not for everyone, but better that life than the life of a refugee on the road.

[Webstral]

Given the lengthy run-up to the start of the Exchange and the lengthy period between the first use of nuclear weapons and the first nuclear strikes on CONUS, we have a great deal of latitude to adjust Western societies. Plenty of people will be in denial right up the moment the first mushroom clouds bloom over American targets. Some will head for the hills at the start of the Sino-Soviet War. Between these extremes are tens or even hundreds (100+) of millions of Americans and thousands of governments from local to federal that will react to varying degrees as the world crosses each major threshold towards the TDM. The two extremes on the scale are the least likely: the nation is well-prepared for a nuclear attack (whatever that looks like) and the nation is completely unprepared as though the Thanksgiving 1997 nuclear attack came out of nowhere. Thunder Empire is an example of what a reasonable effort at preparation on a medium-to-large scale might look like in one area of the country. Silver Shogunate is an example of what minimal preparation might look like. The Black Watch in southern Vermont is an example of what thorough preparation by a handful of folks with limited means might look like. Poseidon’s Rifles is an example of what a large organization that survived with minimal preparation and a good of luck and after-the-fact organizing might look like. There is some justification for almost any level of pre-Exchange planning and preparation in a given locale.

[Legbreaker]

We know from the books that people panicked at the first use of nukes and fled in DROVES from the cities. They soon filtered back though when it all stayed tactical which may have greatly contributed to the massive loss of lives when strategic strikes finally occurred - everyone had just grown used to nukes as an "everyday" occurrence which happened "over there". Even as the first missiles hit their targets in the US and/if reports were received elsewhere, it's very possible in my mind many would have ignored them as sheer rumour and gotten on with their lives - until twenty minutes later they got a sudden and very intense sunburn!

[WallShadow]

http://news.yahoo.com/yorks-environmental-hero-oyster-163717660.html

Reestablishment of oyster beds in New York Harbor to help cleanse the water of pollutants. The oysters retain the nasty stuff and pee out clean water (relatively). Of course the oysters are not then to be eaten, but in a world where radioactive contamination of your drinking water is a concern, here is a way to capture and contain the bad stuff.

You could always ship some veteran filter-oysters to your competition as a "peace offering" however. :cool:

From what I've read over the last few years, oysters/bivalves, mushrooms, and bamboo are under investigation for just the pollution solution jobs described above--bamboo apparently has a high resistance to radioactivity and will segregate the radionucleides out of its water supply.

[WallShadow]

I just had a flash of inspiration while eating my mid-day snack; popcorn! It is everywhere in larger cities (in places like convenience stores, drug stores, and movie theaters) and it can be sprouted and planted as a full-sized crop just like regular corn kernels. Admittedly, it's not necessarily the hybrid "eatin' corn" we'd be used to, but it would serve as a food source/seed source just as well. And being "popcorn", it might be more readily passed over as a food source when SPAM and canned soups are still on the shelves to be grabbed.

[kalos72]

I dabble in the self sufficient mindset so these sorts of systems are pretty familiar to me.

there are so many more efficient systems than the "big farm and tractor" approach we have taken for years now.

All the chemicals needed...oil for he tractor...pesticides...all the nutrient dead soils needing fertilizers.

I like a more local approach in my games...everything is local...population is limited to the amount of food you can grow LOCALLY!

[Webstral]

The efficiency of a practice depends a good deal on which input we're trying to minimize. Mechanized agriculture is very efficient from the standpoint of labor consumption. This makes sense, given that labor is very expensive in our society. After the nuclear exchange knocks civilization on its fourth point of contact, labor becomes becomes very cheap.

[pmulcahy11b]

I just had a flash of inspiration while eating my mid-day snack; popcorn! It is everywhere in larger cities (in places like convenience stores, drug stores, and movie theaters) and it can be sprouted and planted as a full-sized crop just like regular corn kernels. Admittedly, it's not necessarily the hybrid "eatin' corn" we'd be used to, but it would serve as a food source/seed source just as well. And being "popcorn", it might be more readily passed over as a food source when SPAM and canned soups are still on the shelves to be grabbed.

How nutritious is popcorn?

[WallShadow]

as per the Nutrition Facts from the back label of Orville Redenbacher's Movie Theater Butter, and ignoring the fat content/calories, 2 Tablespoons (35g) unpopped 170 calories less 110 from fat = 60 calories from just the corn alone. So... 1000g/35g = 28.5714 servings per Kg.
Therefore, 28.5714 x 60 calories = 1714.2857 calories per kilogram.

Also, 16g of carbohydrate per serving, so 28.5714 x 16 = 457.1424g of carb per kilo.

And 2g protein per serving, so 28.5714 x 2 = 57.028 g protein per kilo.

The kernels, being dried, could be ground for meal or masa to make tortillas or tamales, or corn bread or pudding or polenta. Or parched for hard rations/traveling rations, going back to their original purpose--parching is heating the kernels in a lightly-oiled pan over low heat until the kernels swell slightly and turn slightly brown. Some actually pop during the process.

[Raellus]

The efficiency of a practice depends a good deal on which input we're trying to minimize. Mechanized agriculture is very efficient from the standpoint of labor consumption. This makes sense, given that labor is very expensive in our society. After the nuclear exchange knocks civilization on its fourth point of contact, labor becomes becomes very cheap.

This is a good point that we would do well to remember. I can imagine a fair number of white collar types- lawyers, company execs, hi-powered consultants, etc.- that would be working as unskilled farm labor c. 2000.

As populist rabble-rouser and People's Party/Democratic presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan said in his infamous Cross of Gold speech, "Burn down your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if by magic; but destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of every city in the country."