kato13
09-10-2008, 04:54 AM
Webstral 07-17-2008, 10:54 PM Has anyone done any work on the New America regime in southwest Idaho?
Webstral
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Law0369 07-18-2008, 12:08 PM Us in the D.C group as part of our USA guide are drawing up gangs and groups that would effect the USA in this time. Large Hispanic gangs in the southwest and south central united states in areas with water. new america and their white pride "brothers" in the northwest and appalacia. large black gangs in eastern city's that did not get nuked. all would form and run wild.each having a power base that would be hard to bring under order. most groups already have a power structure and a leadership core.
One gang that me and dan have talked about is a large group of bikers and ex-prisoners from pelican bay in northern california. a lose group that has carved out an area in the southern oregon/northern california area. elite and veteran level guys. vietnam vets and hard corps bikers and convicted felons. tough group to crack. they have bikes and weapons. methane to power them and local small dams to provide power and lots of farm land to feed themselfs with.
Just my thoughs on this .
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TiggerCCW UK 07-18-2008, 01:33 PM I would have to be in agreement with the working group on the idea for a prison based gang as well, its something that I've been considering for my own campaign. My rough idea is that the prisoners would have either been escaped or released prior to the TDM, overpowered their guards or otherwise gained control of the prison and taken control of the facility. This would give them a secure location to start from, access to some weaponry (guards armoury) and access to a range of possible facilities, ranging from a prison workshop/machine shop to prison farms for food production. I haven't decided which way I'm going to have them swing yet, either stay at the prison for the reasons above, or head out onto the road and become travelling marauders.
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Hangfire7 07-18-2008, 01:41 PM The Pelicasn Bay idea sounds like what I did with my Out of Ashes campaign where I used was it Eugene or Albany Oregon and its prison there. A catonment ruled by the criminals who took over the town and surrounding area.
As for Pelican Bay, here is something else to consider, its proximity to Frisco and Oakland and Stockton coupled with the Stockton area being a large meth and biker area, as well as the asian gangs that are in the vicinity too. Remember the I-5 corridor.
Also, my Out of Ashes campaign, I had members of New America who were going to have a loose and uneasy agreement with the survivors of Hermiston and the adjacent facility. As well as New American groups and groups sympathetic to their cause making their way to the coast. One group was recruiting members via fire and brimstone sermons like a traveling tent preacher of the biblebelt of old who using some truth mixed with enough lies, logic again mixed with lies was getting a great following and preaching seperatism of ALL oursiders.
And whqat was that lake in the vicinity that had hydro power, I got it out of a Sports Affield articdle on fishing and it was close enough to the games NA center that it could have been taken over and its industry put to the "cause" building up the power of New America and their industry, and arming a sizable force to expand their area of control.
I even had the New Americans have their own arms factory turning out mac 11s, and Mini 14s on a small scale, plus developing a type of 40mm low velocity grenade launcher powered by compressed air <think of a big paintball gun firing flechette and explosive rounds>
And of course, we had the New Americans drooling over Hermiston and what was there to expand their control.
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Law0369 07-18-2008, 03:25 PM Jess do you think us in the D.C group left Umatilla open? My grandfather has a ranch that touchs the fence there. Its covered also. Part of the Big picture we have going with the rebuild. pelican bay has 2 to 4 thousand inmates and the Hells angles started in frisco. see where I'm headed.......
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newyorkronin 07-18-2008, 08:54 PM In areas of ethnic "diversity" it could get real ugly real fast, making the sectarian violence of post-2003 Iraq look like a cakewalk. Maybe not the roadside bombs or RPG attacks, but certainly roadblocks, snipings and massacres like 92-95 Yugoslavia. In such an environment, whichever group demonstrates it can control the streets, is the de facto "authority," even if it brutalizes and extorts innocent locals, like the Sadr Army or Hezbollah.
I imagine these horrific scenes:
People digging through radio-active rubble for survivors and loved ones while inhaling fallout themselves.
Red Cross and FEMA relief shipments overrun by gangs and looters.
Truck drivers, civil servants and medical professionals refusing to report to work because of fallout and anarchy.
The scene inside the Louisiana Superdome during Hurricane Katrina times 10,000, played out across urban centers and highways.
In the areas not hit, hospitals, evacuation shelters and community centers being utterly overwhelmed.
The elderly, disabled, dislocated minors will not fare well.
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Hangfire7 07-18-2008, 10:26 PM James, not at all, you guys have the talent and knowledge to put it together. I mean, when the game was in print they could have made a campaign on Umatilla alone, instead sadly all they do related to the Pacific Coast is City of Angels, ARGH!!!!!
Here is one, again an idea I had from my Ashes campaign, Parts of the City of Portland was overwhelmed by groups called "GREENS" who were based out of the remnants of Portland, their leadership were some of the eco terrorists err I mean echo freindly folks, again going with their version of gospel who took care of the legions of managed poor and other "unique" types that lived near the water.
I did the same with the space cadets in Frisco, however they were more organized and even had access to some blimps for patrolling the sea lanes <they even bombed my PCs once> and some of the naval vessels that were left in the area mounting a small squadron with a couple corvette sized vessels, of course their crews were not the best and fuel was always an issue.
Okay enough of my recollecting my old campaign. What I am trying to get at is that we always go to one extreme ie the New Americans. In my old Campaign I also went to the other extreme as well, the ultra liberal leftist catonments <frisco and portland> and the eco terrorists as well as so many others coupled with some intrigue and even leaving the PCs to wonder who is the good guy and bad guy.
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boogiedowndonovan 07-19-2008, 01:02 AM I always chuckle when people classify my hometown as a anti military. During the Cold War, the SF bay area had a lot of military bases. The Presidio and Mare Island were Army and Navy bases open since the 1800's. Alameda NAS and Oakland Army base right across the bay with Naval Station Treasure Island in the middle of the bay, Moffett Field down south, Concord NWS and Camp Parks farther inland. not to mention the 129th ARW and HHC 24th Marine Regiment, HQ battery 1/14th Marine Regiment
I remember crawling inside an old LVTP-5 on Treasure Island as a kid and an old M26 on the Presidio parade grounds. Both probably gone now. Fleet week, touring the navy ships and watching the Blue Angels
but there is a price to pay for being liberal, the majority of those bases were closed during BRAC. Camp Parks and Moffett Field are pretty much all that's left. (IIRC, Webstral is a member of 1/184th at Camp Parks?)
hey don't get me wrong, not harping on you Hangfire or anyone else, I have much respect for you Hangfire, you have "been there, done that", nor should this be a conservative vs liberal debate and I am definitly not suggesting that the SF bay area has a strong military tradition like the South. just reminiscing about old times and rambling, its been one of those weeks
besides... Berkeley is the place that hates the military, they were going to give Code Pink a free parking spot right in front of the USMC recruiting office for protesting.
anyways back to T2k and back on topic, Law, you guys ever talk to Orrin Ladd? His California order of battle has a group called the Nation of Klamath which is a New America type group in the northern part of the state. Kinda similar to your biker group.
http://www.reocities.com/orrin_ladd/cali1.htm
heh, I just got an idea, Hangfire, Snake eyes, Webstral and anyone else in california, we should get together and form a Cali working group. Hangfire, since you're in socal and the rest of us are in norcal, you bring the beer. :biggrin:
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Twilight2000V3 07-19-2008, 11:11 AM Booogie,
Im there with ya man.... Snake and I are 20 min away from each other.
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Raellus 07-19-2008, 04:21 PM I imagine these horrific scenes:
People digging through radio-active rubble for survivors and loved ones while inhaling fallout themselves.
Red Cross and FEMA relief shipments overrun by gangs and looters.
Truck drivers, civil servants and medical professionals refusing to report to work because of fallout and anarchy.
The scene inside the Louisiana Superdome during Hurricane Katrina times 10,000, played out across urban centers and highways.
In the areas not hit, hospitals, evacuation shelters and community centers being utterly overwhelmed.
The elderly, disabled, dislocated minors will not fare well.
Yes! And don't forget starvation. Millions of Americans will starve to death. How many Americans can feed themselves? Once the grocery shelves are empty, it's only a matter of time before the stockpiled canned goods in the pantry are used up. America, of course, has the capacity to feed itself. However, couple fuel shortages with widespread civil disorder (i.e. fringe "militias" and gangs) and you've got a distribution nightmare. If those trucks and trains can't get food to the grocery store, people are going to starve.
Groups like new America and the various gangs and such would make sure that they got fed, but this would likely happen at the expense of many others. Vigorous anti-marauder operations would be crucial to any recovery effort.
In fact, Civgov and Milgov forces would be so busy securing their own AOs against outlaws and marauders that they wouldn't have much time to fight each other. This can only speed the overall recovery effort.
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Hangfire7 07-19-2008, 06:31 PM you bring the beer. :biggrin:
Are you implying that there is a time when I am without beer? That is just crazy! I mean think of it man, a world without beer, is that really a world you would want to live in? There, the living would envy the dead, since what on earth would their be to live for? ;)
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Neal5x5 07-19-2008, 11:15 PM The NA cell in SW Idaho would be pretty much on their own. The SE portion of Idaho (Idaho Falls southward) would probably become part of Utah, thanks to the demographic conditions. Boise could definetly be a strong NA location due to its isolation.
Distance is the big problem. NA raiders would have to be cavalry or vehicles with a lot of fuel capacity. There's isolated small communities stretched out along the roads, but hardly enough to allow a sizable force to move and feed off the land (unless you like sagebrush).
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copeab 07-19-2008, 11:51 PM Yes! And don't forget starvation. Millions of Americans will starve to death. How many Americans can feed themselves?
Food might be a problem where I live in rural Texas. Within 15 miles there are plenty of rice and corn fields. There is a decent-sized lake less than 1,000 yards from my house and a major river about 7 miles away.
A railroad runs through the middle of town, which can be seen as good and bad.
The real problem would be the flood of survivors from Houston, which is 45 miles away (and perhaps radioactive fallout, depending on which way the wind was blowing that day).
Another concern would be the government going Stalin on us -- taking our crops at gunpoint, to feed the city dwellers, and leaving us to starve.
Brandon
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newyorkronin 07-20-2008, 11:09 AM Feed the city dwellers? If even the national command structure breaks down, that unit may take it at gunpoint to feed themselves, but there will be armed resistance. But what's the use of slaughtering the very people who keep the farms running? How many people in an infantry battalion knows how to manage industrial agriculture operations? Perhaps in return for "protection," the farmers keep the food coming and the soldiers protect the farmers and their communities from the looters, a true cantonment system.
If the federal government has truly disappeared off the grid, then the commanding officers will have to make a choice on long term supply and civil relations. Unlike the Soviet system, the occupying force may not have the luxury of calling in reinforcements for have the authority of a dictatorship behind them.
The unit may conscript the local lads to replace casualties (like in the PC game Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel) and if replacement parts for farm equipment fails to arrive, the refugees will make convenient laborers. The military can intimidate the locals into slavery of course, but why alienate an armed population who is critical to food production? To enslave a town, the unit will have to shoot all the gun-owning males, a task that can't be accomplished without house-to-house searches, exposing them to urban guerrilla tactics, inflicting casualties that they can't afford. There may be a political solution to a local civil-military disagreement:
"Our militias won't do sniping attacks or make roadside bombs and we will manage food production for you the right way, in return, you will respect the locals and keep out the marauders."
This lays down the foundation for a stable, working relationship which frees up organizational resources to plan expansion or diplomacy with other similiarly organized cantonments in a feudal manner.
On slavery:
Depending on the backgrounds of the members of a unit, the military force may be more culturally tied to rural Texans than city-folk if it comes down to a choice of "signing up" farm labor "volunteers."
But slavery is not the immediate choice as it can lead to slave revolts. Also, personnel up and down the chain of command may find the practice morally objectionable, potentially leading to mutiny. Labor may instead be found from the refugee camps: "You work, you eat" or be paid in locally-issued scrip or WWII-style ration cards.
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Raellus 07-20-2008, 02:20 PM The military can intimidate the locals into slavery of course, but why alienate an armed population who is critical to food production? To enslave a town, the unit will have to shoot all the gun-owning males, a task that can't be accomplished without house-to-house searches, exposing them to urban guerrilla tactics, inflicting casualties that they can't afford. There may be a political solution to a local civil-military disagreement:
Yes, it's pseudo feudalism. The military provides protection and relative stability in exchange for food and labor. Soldiers would be the best fed people in the world, no doubt.
It may be less of a question of "work on the farm or we shoot you" and more a matter of "if you want to eat, you need to help out on the farm". In other words, no more free lunches.
On the flip side, this sort of practice may be a great recruiting tool for groups like NA. They can spin it as "the government is taking most of the food and conscripting all the young men". Depending on the regional culture, this line could win a lot of hearts and minds to their cause. It's like after Ruby Ridge and Waco, the militia movement in the U.S. seemed to really take off for a couple of years.
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newyorkronin 07-21-2008, 11:28 PM Depending on the regional culture, this line could win a lot of hearts and minds to their cause. It's like after Ruby Ridge and Waco, the militia movement in the U.S. seemed to really take off for a couple of years.
Some militia groups probably had more FBI agents than members. But in a post-nuke attack, the feds would be too busy to be doing sting operations on folks selling sawed-off shotguns.
Re: Waco. It is PRECISELY these types of self-organized communities that are in good positions to defend their land and already have stockpiles of supplies. I read somewhere that Mormons are urged to keep a 1 year supply of food. Whatever you feel about "dispensationalist" and Apocalyptic religious folks, the constant fear of an ever-imminent Judgement Day leads to a culture of preparedness. This is better than "helpful advice" on preparing for a 3-day blackout from Good Morning America.
Another scenario that can get real ugly real fast is if UN relief teams show up in the US. Are they delivering humanitarian aid or part the Illuminati's plan for global domination just as the Reverend Cletus foretold? Anyway, here's an interesting read:
http://www.unhcr.org/publ/PUBL/471db4c92.html
When the fabric of society collapses, the most fringe "cults" will have no trouble finding starving "converts" who seeks answers from new prophets. When today, thousands of sick and disabled flock to be healed by the touch of a televangelist's hand, even with one of the best (admittedly imperfect) healthcare systems in the world, imagine in a post-nuke world how many will pay for Holy Water that promises to cure radiation sickness?
Not to mock all religion though. I respect the academic rigor of mainstream theology and the good charity work that church groups do, but I'm afraid that "love thy neighbor" will go out the window when the neighbors start bashing down your bomb shelter door like that Twilight Zone episode. On the other hand, knowing Americans, those not in the areas of anarchy will organize massive relief efforts even if they are on the brink of economic collapse. If the military can reliably protect the transportation infrastructure for relief convoys to get through, they will come. Look at the massive donations of food and clothing that come in after every natural disaster. Of course it won't nearly be enough to prevent famine, epidemics and anarchy in a multi-nuke scenario but I'm not cynical enough to believe everyone's going to turn into marauding cannibals.
In the organized areas where these community organizations operate, they can registering missing persons, run orphanages and organize volunteers. For this generation of survivors, it will be like the Chicago fire, the San Francisco earthquake and the Great Depression rolled into one, and bound together by a new mythos of being the 21st century's "Greatest Generation." At least I hope so. If media communications breaks down and communities feel there's no more federal government, the isolation will make more radical faiths seem more promising.
Speaking of which, there's a group called the Church of the SubGenius out in California, a sort of slacker artist-group that parodies religion, the occult and UFO folks. One of their sales pitches on why you should choose their faith for the End Times: "Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!"
Sounds like a good deal to me!
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Headquarters 07-22-2008, 02:10 AM Some militia groups probably had more FBI agents than members. But in a post-nuke attack, the feds would be too busy to be doing sting operations on folks selling sawed-off shotguns.
Re: Waco. It is PRECISELY these types of self-organized communities that are in good positions to defend their land and already have stockpiles of supplies. I read somewhere that Mormons are urged to keep a 1 year supply of food. Whatever you feel about "dispensationalist" and Apocalyptic religious folks, the constant fear of an ever-imminent Judgement Day leads to a culture of preparedness. This is better than "helpful advice" on preparing for a 3-day blackout from Good Morning America.
Another scenario that can get real ugly real fast is if UN relief teams show up in the US. Are they delivering humanitarian aid or part the Illuminati's plan for global domination just as the Reverend Cletus foretold? Anyway, here's an interesting read:
http://www.unhcr.org/publ/PUBL/471db4c92.html
When the fabric of society collapses, the most fringe "cults" will have no trouble finding starving "converts" who seeks answers from new prophets. When today, thousands of sick and disabled flock to be healed by the touch of a televangelist's hand, even with one of the best (admittedly imperfect) healthcare systems in the world, imagine in a post-nuke world how many will pay for Holy Water that promises to cure radiation sickness?
Not to mock all religion though. I respect the academic rigor of mainstream theology and the good charity work that church groups do, but I'm afraid that "love thy neighbor" will go out the window when the neighbors start bashing down your bomb shelter door like that Twilight Zone episode. On the other hand, knowing Americans, those not in the areas of anarchy will organize massive relief efforts even if they are on the brink of economic collapse. If the military can reliably protect the transportation infrastructure for relief convoys to get through, they will come. Look at the massive donations of food and clothing that come in after every natural disaster. Of course it won't nearly be enough to prevent famine, epidemics and anarchy in a multi-nuke scenario but I'm not cynical enough to believe everyone's going to turn into marauding cannibals.
In the organized areas where these community organizations operate, they can registering missing persons, run orphanages and organize volunteers. For this generation of survivors, it will be like the Chicago fire, the San Francisco earthquake and the Great Depression rolled into one, and bound together by a new mythos of being the 21st century's "Greatest Generation." At least I hope so. If media communications breaks down and communities feel there's no more federal government, the isolation will make more radical faiths seem more promising.
Speaking of which, there's a group called the Church of the SubGenius out in California, a sort of slacker artist-group that parodies religion, the occult and UFO folks. One of their sales pitches on why you should choose their faith for the End Times: "Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!"
Sounds like a good deal to me!
If a war that disables the federal US govt occurs-will there still be a UN ? (Its HQ is in the US btw-and should the US payments into its coffers stop ,the organisation would not be able to operate anymore.)
Has anyone done any work on a typical affluent suburban area type gang -I am thinking alot of SUVs available,probably other resources such as guns,medication,clothing ,educated professionals like doctors,dentists,engineers etc etc -but not much in the way of feeding them selves ..Would such an area spawn a vicious crew of marauders out to plunder whatever garden or livestock they can reach ?
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Nowhere Man 1966 07-22-2008, 10:29 PM If a war that disables the federal US govt occurs-will there still be a UN ? (Its HQ is in the US btw-and should the US payments into its coffers stop ,the organisation would not be able to operate anymore.)
Has anyone done any work on a typical affluent suburban area type gang -I am thinking alot of SUVs available,probably other resources such as guns,medication,clothing ,educated professionals like doctors,dentists,engineers etc etc -but not much in the way of feeding them selves ..Would such an area spawn a vicious crew of marauders out to plunder whatever garden or livestock they can reach ?
I believe the UN also has a satellite HW in Geneva, Switzerland, so I think it will depend on how well the Swiss would fare. Even so, I don't think the UN will be in much of a position to do much in the Twilight World.
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Headquarters 07-24-2008, 02:45 PM I believe the UN also has a satellite HW in Geneva, Switzerland, so I think it will depend on how well the Swiss would fare. Even so, I don't think the UN will be in much of a position to do much in the Twilight World.
I agree-they hardly get anything done today as things are.
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Nowhere Man 1966 07-25-2008, 10:09 AM I agree-they hardly get anything done today as things are.
Yeah, come to think of it, you're right! Then again, if they did, I don't think I'd want them with that much power so I think we have a conundrum here. I still think they'd exist with their "backup" capital in Geneva. Come to think of it, I wonder what the UN diplomats would do in a Twilight War, would their nations if they had any resources left, come to get them or would they be abandoned?
Chuck M.
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Webstral
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Law0369 07-18-2008, 12:08 PM Us in the D.C group as part of our USA guide are drawing up gangs and groups that would effect the USA in this time. Large Hispanic gangs in the southwest and south central united states in areas with water. new america and their white pride "brothers" in the northwest and appalacia. large black gangs in eastern city's that did not get nuked. all would form and run wild.each having a power base that would be hard to bring under order. most groups already have a power structure and a leadership core.
One gang that me and dan have talked about is a large group of bikers and ex-prisoners from pelican bay in northern california. a lose group that has carved out an area in the southern oregon/northern california area. elite and veteran level guys. vietnam vets and hard corps bikers and convicted felons. tough group to crack. they have bikes and weapons. methane to power them and local small dams to provide power and lots of farm land to feed themselfs with.
Just my thoughs on this .
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TiggerCCW UK 07-18-2008, 01:33 PM I would have to be in agreement with the working group on the idea for a prison based gang as well, its something that I've been considering for my own campaign. My rough idea is that the prisoners would have either been escaped or released prior to the TDM, overpowered their guards or otherwise gained control of the prison and taken control of the facility. This would give them a secure location to start from, access to some weaponry (guards armoury) and access to a range of possible facilities, ranging from a prison workshop/machine shop to prison farms for food production. I haven't decided which way I'm going to have them swing yet, either stay at the prison for the reasons above, or head out onto the road and become travelling marauders.
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Hangfire7 07-18-2008, 01:41 PM The Pelicasn Bay idea sounds like what I did with my Out of Ashes campaign where I used was it Eugene or Albany Oregon and its prison there. A catonment ruled by the criminals who took over the town and surrounding area.
As for Pelican Bay, here is something else to consider, its proximity to Frisco and Oakland and Stockton coupled with the Stockton area being a large meth and biker area, as well as the asian gangs that are in the vicinity too. Remember the I-5 corridor.
Also, my Out of Ashes campaign, I had members of New America who were going to have a loose and uneasy agreement with the survivors of Hermiston and the adjacent facility. As well as New American groups and groups sympathetic to their cause making their way to the coast. One group was recruiting members via fire and brimstone sermons like a traveling tent preacher of the biblebelt of old who using some truth mixed with enough lies, logic again mixed with lies was getting a great following and preaching seperatism of ALL oursiders.
And whqat was that lake in the vicinity that had hydro power, I got it out of a Sports Affield articdle on fishing and it was close enough to the games NA center that it could have been taken over and its industry put to the "cause" building up the power of New America and their industry, and arming a sizable force to expand their area of control.
I even had the New Americans have their own arms factory turning out mac 11s, and Mini 14s on a small scale, plus developing a type of 40mm low velocity grenade launcher powered by compressed air <think of a big paintball gun firing flechette and explosive rounds>
And of course, we had the New Americans drooling over Hermiston and what was there to expand their control.
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Law0369 07-18-2008, 03:25 PM Jess do you think us in the D.C group left Umatilla open? My grandfather has a ranch that touchs the fence there. Its covered also. Part of the Big picture we have going with the rebuild. pelican bay has 2 to 4 thousand inmates and the Hells angles started in frisco. see where I'm headed.......
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newyorkronin 07-18-2008, 08:54 PM In areas of ethnic "diversity" it could get real ugly real fast, making the sectarian violence of post-2003 Iraq look like a cakewalk. Maybe not the roadside bombs or RPG attacks, but certainly roadblocks, snipings and massacres like 92-95 Yugoslavia. In such an environment, whichever group demonstrates it can control the streets, is the de facto "authority," even if it brutalizes and extorts innocent locals, like the Sadr Army or Hezbollah.
I imagine these horrific scenes:
People digging through radio-active rubble for survivors and loved ones while inhaling fallout themselves.
Red Cross and FEMA relief shipments overrun by gangs and looters.
Truck drivers, civil servants and medical professionals refusing to report to work because of fallout and anarchy.
The scene inside the Louisiana Superdome during Hurricane Katrina times 10,000, played out across urban centers and highways.
In the areas not hit, hospitals, evacuation shelters and community centers being utterly overwhelmed.
The elderly, disabled, dislocated minors will not fare well.
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Hangfire7 07-18-2008, 10:26 PM James, not at all, you guys have the talent and knowledge to put it together. I mean, when the game was in print they could have made a campaign on Umatilla alone, instead sadly all they do related to the Pacific Coast is City of Angels, ARGH!!!!!
Here is one, again an idea I had from my Ashes campaign, Parts of the City of Portland was overwhelmed by groups called "GREENS" who were based out of the remnants of Portland, their leadership were some of the eco terrorists err I mean echo freindly folks, again going with their version of gospel who took care of the legions of managed poor and other "unique" types that lived near the water.
I did the same with the space cadets in Frisco, however they were more organized and even had access to some blimps for patrolling the sea lanes <they even bombed my PCs once> and some of the naval vessels that were left in the area mounting a small squadron with a couple corvette sized vessels, of course their crews were not the best and fuel was always an issue.
Okay enough of my recollecting my old campaign. What I am trying to get at is that we always go to one extreme ie the New Americans. In my old Campaign I also went to the other extreme as well, the ultra liberal leftist catonments <frisco and portland> and the eco terrorists as well as so many others coupled with some intrigue and even leaving the PCs to wonder who is the good guy and bad guy.
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boogiedowndonovan 07-19-2008, 01:02 AM I always chuckle when people classify my hometown as a anti military. During the Cold War, the SF bay area had a lot of military bases. The Presidio and Mare Island were Army and Navy bases open since the 1800's. Alameda NAS and Oakland Army base right across the bay with Naval Station Treasure Island in the middle of the bay, Moffett Field down south, Concord NWS and Camp Parks farther inland. not to mention the 129th ARW and HHC 24th Marine Regiment, HQ battery 1/14th Marine Regiment
I remember crawling inside an old LVTP-5 on Treasure Island as a kid and an old M26 on the Presidio parade grounds. Both probably gone now. Fleet week, touring the navy ships and watching the Blue Angels
but there is a price to pay for being liberal, the majority of those bases were closed during BRAC. Camp Parks and Moffett Field are pretty much all that's left. (IIRC, Webstral is a member of 1/184th at Camp Parks?)
hey don't get me wrong, not harping on you Hangfire or anyone else, I have much respect for you Hangfire, you have "been there, done that", nor should this be a conservative vs liberal debate and I am definitly not suggesting that the SF bay area has a strong military tradition like the South. just reminiscing about old times and rambling, its been one of those weeks
besides... Berkeley is the place that hates the military, they were going to give Code Pink a free parking spot right in front of the USMC recruiting office for protesting.
anyways back to T2k and back on topic, Law, you guys ever talk to Orrin Ladd? His California order of battle has a group called the Nation of Klamath which is a New America type group in the northern part of the state. Kinda similar to your biker group.
http://www.reocities.com/orrin_ladd/cali1.htm
heh, I just got an idea, Hangfire, Snake eyes, Webstral and anyone else in california, we should get together and form a Cali working group. Hangfire, since you're in socal and the rest of us are in norcal, you bring the beer. :biggrin:
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Twilight2000V3 07-19-2008, 11:11 AM Booogie,
Im there with ya man.... Snake and I are 20 min away from each other.
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Raellus 07-19-2008, 04:21 PM I imagine these horrific scenes:
People digging through radio-active rubble for survivors and loved ones while inhaling fallout themselves.
Red Cross and FEMA relief shipments overrun by gangs and looters.
Truck drivers, civil servants and medical professionals refusing to report to work because of fallout and anarchy.
The scene inside the Louisiana Superdome during Hurricane Katrina times 10,000, played out across urban centers and highways.
In the areas not hit, hospitals, evacuation shelters and community centers being utterly overwhelmed.
The elderly, disabled, dislocated minors will not fare well.
Yes! And don't forget starvation. Millions of Americans will starve to death. How many Americans can feed themselves? Once the grocery shelves are empty, it's only a matter of time before the stockpiled canned goods in the pantry are used up. America, of course, has the capacity to feed itself. However, couple fuel shortages with widespread civil disorder (i.e. fringe "militias" and gangs) and you've got a distribution nightmare. If those trucks and trains can't get food to the grocery store, people are going to starve.
Groups like new America and the various gangs and such would make sure that they got fed, but this would likely happen at the expense of many others. Vigorous anti-marauder operations would be crucial to any recovery effort.
In fact, Civgov and Milgov forces would be so busy securing their own AOs against outlaws and marauders that they wouldn't have much time to fight each other. This can only speed the overall recovery effort.
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Hangfire7 07-19-2008, 06:31 PM you bring the beer. :biggrin:
Are you implying that there is a time when I am without beer? That is just crazy! I mean think of it man, a world without beer, is that really a world you would want to live in? There, the living would envy the dead, since what on earth would their be to live for? ;)
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Neal5x5 07-19-2008, 11:15 PM The NA cell in SW Idaho would be pretty much on their own. The SE portion of Idaho (Idaho Falls southward) would probably become part of Utah, thanks to the demographic conditions. Boise could definetly be a strong NA location due to its isolation.
Distance is the big problem. NA raiders would have to be cavalry or vehicles with a lot of fuel capacity. There's isolated small communities stretched out along the roads, but hardly enough to allow a sizable force to move and feed off the land (unless you like sagebrush).
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copeab 07-19-2008, 11:51 PM Yes! And don't forget starvation. Millions of Americans will starve to death. How many Americans can feed themselves?
Food might be a problem where I live in rural Texas. Within 15 miles there are plenty of rice and corn fields. There is a decent-sized lake less than 1,000 yards from my house and a major river about 7 miles away.
A railroad runs through the middle of town, which can be seen as good and bad.
The real problem would be the flood of survivors from Houston, which is 45 miles away (and perhaps radioactive fallout, depending on which way the wind was blowing that day).
Another concern would be the government going Stalin on us -- taking our crops at gunpoint, to feed the city dwellers, and leaving us to starve.
Brandon
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newyorkronin 07-20-2008, 11:09 AM Feed the city dwellers? If even the national command structure breaks down, that unit may take it at gunpoint to feed themselves, but there will be armed resistance. But what's the use of slaughtering the very people who keep the farms running? How many people in an infantry battalion knows how to manage industrial agriculture operations? Perhaps in return for "protection," the farmers keep the food coming and the soldiers protect the farmers and their communities from the looters, a true cantonment system.
If the federal government has truly disappeared off the grid, then the commanding officers will have to make a choice on long term supply and civil relations. Unlike the Soviet system, the occupying force may not have the luxury of calling in reinforcements for have the authority of a dictatorship behind them.
The unit may conscript the local lads to replace casualties (like in the PC game Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel) and if replacement parts for farm equipment fails to arrive, the refugees will make convenient laborers. The military can intimidate the locals into slavery of course, but why alienate an armed population who is critical to food production? To enslave a town, the unit will have to shoot all the gun-owning males, a task that can't be accomplished without house-to-house searches, exposing them to urban guerrilla tactics, inflicting casualties that they can't afford. There may be a political solution to a local civil-military disagreement:
"Our militias won't do sniping attacks or make roadside bombs and we will manage food production for you the right way, in return, you will respect the locals and keep out the marauders."
This lays down the foundation for a stable, working relationship which frees up organizational resources to plan expansion or diplomacy with other similiarly organized cantonments in a feudal manner.
On slavery:
Depending on the backgrounds of the members of a unit, the military force may be more culturally tied to rural Texans than city-folk if it comes down to a choice of "signing up" farm labor "volunteers."
But slavery is not the immediate choice as it can lead to slave revolts. Also, personnel up and down the chain of command may find the practice morally objectionable, potentially leading to mutiny. Labor may instead be found from the refugee camps: "You work, you eat" or be paid in locally-issued scrip or WWII-style ration cards.
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Raellus 07-20-2008, 02:20 PM The military can intimidate the locals into slavery of course, but why alienate an armed population who is critical to food production? To enslave a town, the unit will have to shoot all the gun-owning males, a task that can't be accomplished without house-to-house searches, exposing them to urban guerrilla tactics, inflicting casualties that they can't afford. There may be a political solution to a local civil-military disagreement:
Yes, it's pseudo feudalism. The military provides protection and relative stability in exchange for food and labor. Soldiers would be the best fed people in the world, no doubt.
It may be less of a question of "work on the farm or we shoot you" and more a matter of "if you want to eat, you need to help out on the farm". In other words, no more free lunches.
On the flip side, this sort of practice may be a great recruiting tool for groups like NA. They can spin it as "the government is taking most of the food and conscripting all the young men". Depending on the regional culture, this line could win a lot of hearts and minds to their cause. It's like after Ruby Ridge and Waco, the militia movement in the U.S. seemed to really take off for a couple of years.
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newyorkronin 07-21-2008, 11:28 PM Depending on the regional culture, this line could win a lot of hearts and minds to their cause. It's like after Ruby Ridge and Waco, the militia movement in the U.S. seemed to really take off for a couple of years.
Some militia groups probably had more FBI agents than members. But in a post-nuke attack, the feds would be too busy to be doing sting operations on folks selling sawed-off shotguns.
Re: Waco. It is PRECISELY these types of self-organized communities that are in good positions to defend their land and already have stockpiles of supplies. I read somewhere that Mormons are urged to keep a 1 year supply of food. Whatever you feel about "dispensationalist" and Apocalyptic religious folks, the constant fear of an ever-imminent Judgement Day leads to a culture of preparedness. This is better than "helpful advice" on preparing for a 3-day blackout from Good Morning America.
Another scenario that can get real ugly real fast is if UN relief teams show up in the US. Are they delivering humanitarian aid or part the Illuminati's plan for global domination just as the Reverend Cletus foretold? Anyway, here's an interesting read:
http://www.unhcr.org/publ/PUBL/471db4c92.html
When the fabric of society collapses, the most fringe "cults" will have no trouble finding starving "converts" who seeks answers from new prophets. When today, thousands of sick and disabled flock to be healed by the touch of a televangelist's hand, even with one of the best (admittedly imperfect) healthcare systems in the world, imagine in a post-nuke world how many will pay for Holy Water that promises to cure radiation sickness?
Not to mock all religion though. I respect the academic rigor of mainstream theology and the good charity work that church groups do, but I'm afraid that "love thy neighbor" will go out the window when the neighbors start bashing down your bomb shelter door like that Twilight Zone episode. On the other hand, knowing Americans, those not in the areas of anarchy will organize massive relief efforts even if they are on the brink of economic collapse. If the military can reliably protect the transportation infrastructure for relief convoys to get through, they will come. Look at the massive donations of food and clothing that come in after every natural disaster. Of course it won't nearly be enough to prevent famine, epidemics and anarchy in a multi-nuke scenario but I'm not cynical enough to believe everyone's going to turn into marauding cannibals.
In the organized areas where these community organizations operate, they can registering missing persons, run orphanages and organize volunteers. For this generation of survivors, it will be like the Chicago fire, the San Francisco earthquake and the Great Depression rolled into one, and bound together by a new mythos of being the 21st century's "Greatest Generation." At least I hope so. If media communications breaks down and communities feel there's no more federal government, the isolation will make more radical faiths seem more promising.
Speaking of which, there's a group called the Church of the SubGenius out in California, a sort of slacker artist-group that parodies religion, the occult and UFO folks. One of their sales pitches on why you should choose their faith for the End Times: "Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!"
Sounds like a good deal to me!
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Headquarters 07-22-2008, 02:10 AM Some militia groups probably had more FBI agents than members. But in a post-nuke attack, the feds would be too busy to be doing sting operations on folks selling sawed-off shotguns.
Re: Waco. It is PRECISELY these types of self-organized communities that are in good positions to defend their land and already have stockpiles of supplies. I read somewhere that Mormons are urged to keep a 1 year supply of food. Whatever you feel about "dispensationalist" and Apocalyptic religious folks, the constant fear of an ever-imminent Judgement Day leads to a culture of preparedness. This is better than "helpful advice" on preparing for a 3-day blackout from Good Morning America.
Another scenario that can get real ugly real fast is if UN relief teams show up in the US. Are they delivering humanitarian aid or part the Illuminati's plan for global domination just as the Reverend Cletus foretold? Anyway, here's an interesting read:
http://www.unhcr.org/publ/PUBL/471db4c92.html
When the fabric of society collapses, the most fringe "cults" will have no trouble finding starving "converts" who seeks answers from new prophets. When today, thousands of sick and disabled flock to be healed by the touch of a televangelist's hand, even with one of the best (admittedly imperfect) healthcare systems in the world, imagine in a post-nuke world how many will pay for Holy Water that promises to cure radiation sickness?
Not to mock all religion though. I respect the academic rigor of mainstream theology and the good charity work that church groups do, but I'm afraid that "love thy neighbor" will go out the window when the neighbors start bashing down your bomb shelter door like that Twilight Zone episode. On the other hand, knowing Americans, those not in the areas of anarchy will organize massive relief efforts even if they are on the brink of economic collapse. If the military can reliably protect the transportation infrastructure for relief convoys to get through, they will come. Look at the massive donations of food and clothing that come in after every natural disaster. Of course it won't nearly be enough to prevent famine, epidemics and anarchy in a multi-nuke scenario but I'm not cynical enough to believe everyone's going to turn into marauding cannibals.
In the organized areas where these community organizations operate, they can registering missing persons, run orphanages and organize volunteers. For this generation of survivors, it will be like the Chicago fire, the San Francisco earthquake and the Great Depression rolled into one, and bound together by a new mythos of being the 21st century's "Greatest Generation." At least I hope so. If media communications breaks down and communities feel there's no more federal government, the isolation will make more radical faiths seem more promising.
Speaking of which, there's a group called the Church of the SubGenius out in California, a sort of slacker artist-group that parodies religion, the occult and UFO folks. One of their sales pitches on why you should choose their faith for the End Times: "Eternal salvation or TRIPLE your money back!"
Sounds like a good deal to me!
If a war that disables the federal US govt occurs-will there still be a UN ? (Its HQ is in the US btw-and should the US payments into its coffers stop ,the organisation would not be able to operate anymore.)
Has anyone done any work on a typical affluent suburban area type gang -I am thinking alot of SUVs available,probably other resources such as guns,medication,clothing ,educated professionals like doctors,dentists,engineers etc etc -but not much in the way of feeding them selves ..Would such an area spawn a vicious crew of marauders out to plunder whatever garden or livestock they can reach ?
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Nowhere Man 1966 07-22-2008, 10:29 PM If a war that disables the federal US govt occurs-will there still be a UN ? (Its HQ is in the US btw-and should the US payments into its coffers stop ,the organisation would not be able to operate anymore.)
Has anyone done any work on a typical affluent suburban area type gang -I am thinking alot of SUVs available,probably other resources such as guns,medication,clothing ,educated professionals like doctors,dentists,engineers etc etc -but not much in the way of feeding them selves ..Would such an area spawn a vicious crew of marauders out to plunder whatever garden or livestock they can reach ?
I believe the UN also has a satellite HW in Geneva, Switzerland, so I think it will depend on how well the Swiss would fare. Even so, I don't think the UN will be in much of a position to do much in the Twilight World.
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Headquarters 07-24-2008, 02:45 PM I believe the UN also has a satellite HW in Geneva, Switzerland, so I think it will depend on how well the Swiss would fare. Even so, I don't think the UN will be in much of a position to do much in the Twilight World.
I agree-they hardly get anything done today as things are.
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Nowhere Man 1966 07-25-2008, 10:09 AM I agree-they hardly get anything done today as things are.
Yeah, come to think of it, you're right! Then again, if they did, I don't think I'd want them with that much power so I think we have a conundrum here. I still think they'd exist with their "backup" capital in Geneva. Come to think of it, I wonder what the UN diplomats would do in a Twilight War, would their nations if they had any resources left, come to get them or would they be abandoned?
Chuck M.
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