OT - Killings at Fort Hood

[Cdnwolf]

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Armed gunmen Thursday killed seven people and wounded at least 12 others in a bloody rampage at Fort Hood military base in Texas, US officials and media said.

Both the Pentagon and local police confirmed to AFP that there had been a shooting, but could not give details on how many victims there were on the base in Killeen, in central Texas.


President Barack Obama had been informed of the shooting, a White House official said.


A suspect was in custody, Master Sergeant Tim Volkert at Fort Hood told AFP. "We're trying to confirm the exact numbers" of dead and wounded, he said.


But a Killeen police department spokeswoman warned there were still suspects at large. "There has been a shooting at Fort Hood and all the suspects are not in custody at this time," she told AFP.


"I know they have active shooters out there."


She would not give any more details, but local and national media reported that seven people had been killed and 12 others wounded.


MSNBC reported there were at least two shooters, with one in custody, adding there was speculation that there may be a third gunman.


One of the shooters at large was believed to have a high-powered sniper rifle, and was holed up in a building surrounded by SWAT teams, MSNBC said.


It was not immediately clear if it was an attack on the base, or whether the shootings were carried out by US soldiers.


Local congressman John Carter confirmed there had been a shooting at Fort Hood, the nation's largest US military base whose troops have seen extensive tours of duty in Iraq.


The gunfire had erupted ahead of a graduation ceremony in the soldier readiness center, Carter said, but could not confirm reports of injuries.


"I had a man on the scene, who is my regional director and former chaplin at Fort Hood, waiting to go to a graduation ceremony when a soldier came running up to him saying, "sir, don't go over there. They are -- somebody is shooting over there," Carter told on MSNBC.


"When the soldier ran by him, he saw the soldier didn't know it, but he was wounded. So, he went into the building and they stopped him, because he had been shot.


"He heard small arms and some rifle fire while he was there and that he thought they had one person that they had caught but there may be more, he didn't know. He understood there was more than one, that was all he said."


Fort Hood has been working to rehabilitate many soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome, Carter added.


A message on Fort Hood's website -- the headquarters of the Army 3rd Corps, the 4th Infantry Division and the 1st Cavalry Division -- said it was closed, but gave no further details. All those units have seen extensive duty in Iraq.


"Effective immediately. Fort Hood is closed. Organizations/units are instructed to execute a 100 percent accountability of all personnel. This is not a Drill. It is an Emergency Situation," the website.

Army personnel told a Fox news affiliate they were not sure if the victims were civilians or military personnel.

Schools in the area were also on lockdown, MSNBC said.

[copeab]

Latest from AP is that 12 are dead and 31 wounded. A gunman, a Major and psychologist or psychiatrist, is dead and two other soldiers are in custody,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091105/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting

[Mohoender]

Latest from AP is that 12 are dead and 31 wounded. A gunman, a Major and psychologist or psychiatrist, is dead and two other soldiers are in custody,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091105/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting

Got the same information. I didn't know he was a Major. However, it was stated on our news that he did it all by himself and was of Palestinian descent. I actually saw MD on his registration form but didn't know he was psychologist or psychiatrist. Really sorry for those killed and I share the feeling expressed by Obama (at least what we heard of it).

A less serious note in the middle of this drama: French often refer to Psychologists as Psycho and that says it all.

Actually, it seems that he is alive and that he is a psychiatrist.

[headquarters]

sorry about the tragedy befallen the US again .

[Webstral]

sorry about the tragedy befallen the US again .

Thanks. The fun just never seems to stop.

[JimmyRay73]

My thoughts go out to everyone else who is waiting to see if someone they know is a casualty, and esecially to the families and friends who know already. Truly a damnable shame...

[Legbreaker]

A less serious note in the middle of this drama: French often refer to Psychologists as Psycho and that says it all.
There was a saying over here in Australia when I was still in the army - "who psychs the psychs?"
Not one of them that I met (and there were quite a few!) could possibly be described as completely sane....

[jester]

One problem is he is islamic, and per the news reports and even some former collegues he was anti American and deployment and sympathetic to the terrorists and their cause or at least their actions.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes it sounds as if he should of been throwing up red flags that people ignored.

[Webstral]

One problem is he is islamic, and per the news reports and even some former collegues he was anti American and deployment and sympathetic to the terrorists and their cause or at least their actions.


Being anti-American is obviously a problem. If he's anti-deployment, he's in the wrong line of work. If he's sympathetic to the terrorists, he's living in the wrong nation. Being Muslim can't be counted as a problem--not in a First Amendment nation.

Webstral

[Mohoender]

French reports are not going the way you describe.

They were saying that he was pro-american but discriminated by fellow troopers for being muslim and palestinian (sadly I can buy that).

They were also saying that he was growing more and more tired from listening what soldiers coming from Iraq and Afghanistan had to say. Kind of getting battle fatigue before even getting to the battlefield. I'm not a specialist but I think it is not unheard of from military psychiatrist.

It seems also that the various authorities deny any connection with terrorists. Sorry but I hardly admit that US authorities are still (if they ever were) stupid enough not to monitor someone of his rank and potential influence on soldiers who would have connections or sympathy with terrorists (especially after 9/11).

Of course, I'm not trying to find him excuses, but the idea that the guy was islamic, terrorist lover and anti-american..., and still holding the position he had in the US Army is unacceptable. Moreover, if fellow soldiers and officers had known about that and not done anything about it what are they: traitors? If not traitors, they should be considered his accomplice and prosecuted consequently. I agree that I'm a little extreme in this but if I was one of his victim's father/brother and you were explaining me that you knew but didn't do shit, I'm not sure of what I would do. Such an idea is outrageous to me.

For my part, they sound more like school kids who had done something mean and try to run away from their responsibility.

[pmulcahy11b]

French reports are not going the way you describe.

They were saying that he was pro-american but discriminated by fellow troopers for being muslim and palestinian (sadly I can buy that).

They were also saying that he was growing more and more tired from listening what soldiers coming from Iraq and Afghanistan had to say. Kind of getting battle fatigue before even getting to the battlefield. I'm not a specialist but I think it is not unheard of from military psychiatrist.

It seems also that the various authorities deny any connection with terrorists. Sorry but I hardly admit that US authorities are still (if they ever were) stupid enough not to monitor someone of his rank and potential influence on soldiers who would have connections or sympathy with terrorists (especially after 9/11).

Of course, I'm not trying to find him excuses, but the idea that the guy was islamic, terrorist lover and anti-american..., and still holding the position he had in the US Army is unacceptable. Moreover, if fellow soldiers and officers had known about that and not done anything about it what are they: traitors? If not traitors, they should be considered his accomplice and prosecuted consequently. I agree that I'm a little extreme in this but if I was one of his victim's father/brother and you were explaining me that you knew but didn't do shit, I'm not sure of what I would do. Such an idea is outrageous to me.

For my part, they sound more like school kids who had done something mean and try to run away from their responsibility.

Unfortunately, from what I've been able to find out you have the right scoop. Anti-Muslim discrimination has been growing in the military since 9/11 -- and I worry that it might get worse now. I worked with Muslims here and there in the Army, and they're no less American than the rest of us. Yes, the shooter must get a court-martial if he survives (it's looking like he might; he's here in San Antonio at Brooke AMC right now, BTW, along with several of the victims), but his actions have nothing to do with other Muslims. It's same as if he were a Christian and mentally-ill and started shooting people.

Since he appears to have given plenty of signs that he was unstable, and they seem to have been glossed over, I also think a top-to-bottom investigation of his chain of command and possibly a RIFT is in order.

It makes you wonder: How many other time bombs are in the military, pushed way too far by how hard we're pushing our troops?

[jester]

Being anti-American is obviously a problem. If he's anti-deployment, he's in the wrong line of work. If he's sympathetic to the terrorists, he's living in the wrong nation. Being Muslim can't be counted as a problem--not in a First Amendment nation.

Webstral

By itsself no not an issue, but with all of the stuff put together then yes it could be an issue.

As for what Mo said about commands knowing his comments and attituides. Me thinks it is probably retribution as the military is good at that sending folks they dislike to unpleasant jobs. And did they know but did nothing, well that is also common in the military especialy among the officer corps. No one wants to speak upyou never rock the boat.


Passing the buck transfering him to another command and making him someone else's problem is also often.

[Webstral]

Me thinks it is probably retribution as the military is good at that sending folks they dislike to unpleasant jobs. And did they know but did nothing, well that is also common in the military especialy among the officer corps. No one wants to speak upyou never rock the boat.


Passing the buck transfering him to another command and making him someone else's problem is also often.

Sage observations. Few get promoted by making waves. No one wants bad news on his Officer Evaluation Report. It's a shame that the inevitable outcome of a desire to avoid being seen as a troublemaker is a disaster like this one.

By itsself no not an issue, but with all of the stuff put together then yes it could be an issue.

We can't allow the exercise of Constitutional rights to be part of a formula by which we identify problems. Anti-American sentiments and other problematic behaviors must be taken by themselves and not factored in with faith. When we start suspecting Americans of crimes based on their faith or using faith as a multiplier to justify suspicions, we undermine the very principles which set us apart from the people we're fighting.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Sage observations. Few get promoted by making waves. No one wants bad news on his Officer Evaluation Report. It's a shame that the inevitable outcome of a desire to avoid being seen as a troublemaker is a disaster like this one.

Ah, yes; no officer (or NCO) wants to be the "Atlas Man." (Do OERs and NCOERs still use that little diagram?) But I've seen that happen too many times -- promote someone because he's a good schmoozer but otherwise a royal pain in the ass. If you promote him, you can get him reassigned outside your unit! It's really a lazy and stupid way to solve a problem with a soldier, and it gets used way too often, particularly with problem senior NCOs and mid-to-high-level officers.

Ironically, it's also used to get rid of another type of "problem" soldier" -- the one that sees problems and immediately starts working to fix them -- successfully. It's the sort of thing that makes his superiors pissed because he's exposing unit problems that his superiors were glossing over, ignoring, or actively trying to hide -- and it also makes them look bad because they couldn't fix the problems. A stupid and lazy senior NCO or officer will get rid of that guy because he "makes us look bad." A smart one will use that guy as his troubleshooter and go-to guy.

[Webstral]

A smart one will use that guy as his troubleshooter and go-to guy.

Oh, if only there were more smart commanders out there who used their smarts for the greater good!

One reason I started Thunder Empire was to bring into existence a few good leaders so I could show what I believe happens when the senior leadership creates a climate of communication, honesty, and tolerance for mistakes.

Webstral

[MajorPo]

He was a psychiatrist. They are indeed a bunch of bow tie wearing freaks. Speaking as a psychologist I can assure you we are all sane, upstanding members of the community ;)

[headquarters]

He was a psychiatrist. They are indeed a bunch of bow tie wearing freaks. Speaking as a psychologist I can assure you we are all sane, upstanding members of the community ;)

The student housing comitee in Bergen where I used to live -allocated no flat over the 2 floor to any psych student...

;)

[Targan]

He was a psychiatrist. They are indeed a bunch of bow tie wearing freaks. Speaking as a psychologist I can assure you we are all sane, upstanding members of the community ;)

I was drinking Sprite as read that post and it came out of my nose.

[Abbott Shaull]

Ah, yes; no officer (or NCO) wants to be the "Atlas Man." (Do OERs and NCOERs still use that little diagram?) But I've seen that happen too many times -- promote someone because he's a good schmoozer but otherwise a royal pain in the ass. If you promote him, you can get him reassigned outside your unit! It's really a lazy and stupid way to solve a problem with a soldier, and it gets used way too often, particularly with problem senior NCOs and mid-to-high-level officers.

Ironically, it's also used to get rid of another type of "problem" soldier" -- the one that sees problems and immediately starts working to fix them -- successfully. It's the sort of thing that makes his superiors pissed because he's exposing unit problems that his superiors were glossing over, ignoring, or actively trying to hide -- and it also makes them look bad because they couldn't fix the problems. A stupid and lazy senior NCO or officer will get rid of that guy because he "makes us look bad." A smart one will use that guy as his troubleshooter and go-to guy.

Well all too often it was the zero who got promoted and sent to other units. Yet, it seem the warnings were out there.

[copeab]

There's an old story about how the Germans broke down officers by smart/stupid and energetic/lazy,

Those who were smart/lazy were considered the best leaders, because they were unlikely to micromanage their underlings, staying out of their way unless there was trouble, only then getting involved.

The smart/energetic made the best underlings, knowing how to do their jobs and willing to get it done.

The stupid/lazy were no use at all, but they tended to not stand in the way of smarter officers passing them over.

However, the stupid/energetic person is the bane to any organization. They don't know what they are doing but, by God, they want to do it anyway. They must be gotten rid of at all costs.

[Legbreaker]

However, the stupid/energetic person is the bane to any organization. They don't know what they are doing but, by God, they want to do it anyway. They must be gotten rid of at all costs.

This would explain the Russian front? ;)

From the little I've seen of the news in the past few days, there's still a huge emphasis on the fact he was a muslim and had links with terrorist groups. To me that stinks of passing the buck and ducking for cover.

[pmulcahy11b]

From the little I've seen of the news in the past few days, there's still a huge emphasis on the fact he was a muslim and had links with terrorist groups. To me that stinks of passing the buck and ducking for cover.

Yeah, after seeing the past few days, I've had to revise my opinion about him. I thought he was deeply troubled and mentally-ill. But now -- he seems to have been pissed off at the US Government and the US military well before he came into the Army. Strange how he didn't mind the Army paying for his education, huh? He's scum of the worst sort.

[copeab]

He's scum of the worst sort.

I must respectfully disagree. He's down there, but he's not as low as a pedophile, for starters.

[pmulcahy11b]

I must respectfully disagree. He's down there, but he's not as low as a pedophile, for starters.

OK, you're right. I do think that child sexual abuse should be a death penalty crime. But you know what I mean.

A bad part of this incident is that it will probably increase distrust and suspicion of Moslem troops in the US military, increasing prejudice and possibly lead to reprisals, such as beating up Moslem troops. He may think in his twisted mind-set that he is helping Moslems, but instead he's done something evil to them.

[Caradhras]

Personally I wouldnt judge anyone when my only source of evidence is from the media, many of whom are scum of some sort (imo). :p

The media are running with the muslim/extremist angle but there is no evidence other than some emails to a cleric, yet these emails are harmless.

My take on it, purely from instinct, is another case of man going over the edge from stresses.

[copeab]

A bad part of this incident is that it will probably increase distrust and suspicion of Moslem troops in the US military, increasing prejudice and possibly lead to reprisals, such as beating up Moslem troops.

I'll agree with this. Some mediot (I don't remember the name*, but it's not one I'm familiar with) has already said that Muslims should not be allowed to serve in the military until some sort of foolproof "loyalty test" is devised for them to pass.

* Don something

[Caradhras]

A recent BBC article, prompted by the Hood incident no doubt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8354977.stm

[Mohoender]

A recent BBC article, prompted by the Hood incident no doubt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8354977.stm

Nice and interesting article

[Webstral]

I'll agree with this. Some mediot (I don't remember the name*, but it's not one I'm familiar with) has already said that Muslims should not be allowed to serve in the military until some sort of foolproof "loyalty test" is devised for them to pass.

* Don something

Yikes. Let's hope the Army leadership rises to a higher level of professionalism and Constitutionality.

[Webstral]

Yeah, after seeing the past few days, I've had to revise my opinion about him. I thought he was deeply troubled and mentally-ill. But now -- he seems to have been pissed off at the US Government and the US military well before he came into the Army. Strange how he didn't mind the Army paying for his education, huh? He's scum of the worst sort.

It never ceases to amaze me how many soldiers I've met can square their consciences with accepting the Army's money for college but give a poor performance because being in the Army is hard and kinda sucks. I saw them all the time at Huachuca--principally among the new ROTC lieutenants. Having had their college paid for, they were going to coast resentfully through the next four years of service, crossing off each day on the big calendar.

On the plus side, the above observation gives me an opportunity to say something nice about the West Point graduates, which I seldom do. The West Pointers, for all that they tended to believe they crapped gold and roses and that their class rings also functioned as invisible shields, were hard-chargers. They had a LOT to learn about the real Army, but generally they were aggressive and dedicated.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

On the plus side, the above observation gives me an opportunity to say something nice about the West Point graduates, which I seldom do. The West Pointers, for all that they tended to believe they crapped gold and roses and that their class rings also functioned as invisible shields, were hard-chargers. They had a LOT to learn about the real Army, but generally they were aggressive and dedicated.

Webstral

While they are hard-chargers, it's been my experience that virtually all Pointers lack one critical ability: the ability to understand how to lead real troops (and not fellow Pointers). There are precious few that can actually do that. At 2X, I found that it is pervasive to the the top of at least the Division level (again with very few exceptions). I like the idea Heinlein had in Starship Troopers -- you can't be an officer except by going through OCS, and you can't go to OCS without having spent a certain amount of time as an NCO. Mustangs are by far the best officers.

[Adm.Lee]

I heard on the radio this am that Maj. Hasan was sent to Ft. Hood for two reasons. One is the one everyone suspects-- to get him out of the way where he was. The OTHER is that Hood had the most Army psychiatrists/psychologists of any post, so that he could be watched and evaluated, or at least they could cover for his slacking, if he wasn't any trouble.

[copeab]

While they are hard-chargers, it's been my experience that virtually all Pointers lack one critical ability: the ability to understand how to lead real troops (and not fellow Pointers). There are precious few that can actually do that. At 2X, I found that it is pervasive to the the top of at least the Division level (again with very few exceptions). I like the idea Heinlein had in Starship Troopers -- you can't be an officer except by going through OCS, and you can't go to OCS without having spent a certain amount of time as an NCO. Mustangs are by far the best officers.

I thought Heinlein's idea was that no one could be an officer until they had seen combat.

[cavtroop]

While they are hard-chargers, it's been my experience that virtually all Pointers lack one critical ability: the ability to understand how to lead real troops (and not fellow Pointers). There are precious few that can actually do that. At 2X, I found that it is pervasive to the the top of at least the Division level (again with very few exceptions). I like the idea Heinlein had in Starship Troopers -- you can't be an officer except by going through OCS, and you can't go to OCS without having spent a certain amount of time as an NCO. Mustangs are by far the best officers.

One of the worst officers I ever worked with was from the Point (I'm looking at you, MAJ ****, nah, I won't name names). One of the highlights of my career was watching the COL I worked for chew him out for 30 minutes straight, in front of the entire unit for screwing up so badly.

WP graduates have a HUGE chip on their shoulder, they think their sh*t don't stink, and they can do no wrong. I'm not sure if leadership is actually taught at WP, but arrogance sure is.

[Cdnwolf]

It always surprises me how suddenly all this information comes to light AFTER the fact... never before... as if... maybe... they screwed up and now they want to shift the blame.

How many disgruntled employees have walked into their place of employment and opened fire... lots... but label him a Muslim and suddenly he's a terrorist and lets MAKE up evidence to support the fact.

[Mohoender]

It always surprises me how suddenly all this information comes to light AFTER the fact... never before... as if... maybe... they screwed up and now they want to shift the blame.

How many disgruntled employees have walked into their place of employment and opened fire... lots... but label him a Muslim and suddenly he's a terrorist and lets MAKE up evidence to support the fact.

I agree with that. And if everything is true, I hope that the US Army will do its job correctly. I hope that all these people who had known before hand and remained silenced will be prosecuted under the charge of murder.:mad:

[Cdnwolf]

Thank you. I was always taught to not to believe what the media and government tells you... to keep an open mind and look at the bigger picture.

I do feel great sorrow for the families of those killed ... but I also feel grief for those of the Muslim faith that will now suffer now because of hysteria.