Alcohol

[Graebarde]

This might have already been address, but with the recent talk about fuel in XI Corps, and Whiskey etc I think it's time to drag it up again. I have a serious question as to the production of alcohol for fuel in T2K. Not so much in making it, but the amounts that are necessary. Where do they get the feed stock? It's assumed they use grains or other starchy vegetation (think spuds) for it, or wood for methanol. But with a MAJOR food shortage, and problems in the post strike timeline to produce enough for people, WHO would turn grain into fuel??? Yes the distiller's grain (what's left after distillation) is high protien and can be/is fed to livestock, I just ponder the concept as something next to criminal.. And turning wood into wood alcohol (methanol) is in the same boat IMO. It takes much longer to 'ferment' the cellulose into alcohol.

We discussed biodiesel, but even that is questionable as the labor put into raising oil crops (rapeseed/canola, sunflowers, soybeans) for oil would be better spent in food production. Land is not the problem, nor really is the labor pool, but seed for the production is. If we talk corn, which is the heavy yielder, even at the lower yields after the strikes, will be a problem until the hybrids can be turned back into open-pollinated... Yes there is some seed available, but it being a fighting game it is never addressed.

Enough rambling. Ideas??

[Legbreaker]

Is this something that is already addressed in a very basic form by the price difference between a litre of fuel and kilogram of food?

I agree that food is definatley the priority in most places. Only waste products would be available for distillation, and I doubt there'd be a lot of waste left over in the more highly populated areas. Perhaps this is why it took so long between the 97-98 campaigns and those of 2000?

[kato13]

Just a reminder that the game designers totally screwed up on the subject of methanol.

Methanol (http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=226)

Methanol production, as written, totally violates the laws of biology and chemistry.

[Webstral]

This favors the bigger cantonments over, say, the roaming bands of brigands. Being a law-and-order type more than a warrior of the wasteland type, I like the idea that the technology/chemistry gives the bigger organizations an advantage over the smaller ones.

Of course, bigger v smaller works both ways. The New Americans in Florida have a large, relatively secure cantonment vis-a-vis the resistance. Still, I like an idea that generally gives the troops and the cops an advantage over the brigands.

Webstral

[Mohoender]

I agree that food will be a priority in most areas. However, there might be several things to take in consideration:

Compare to nowadays the number of running vehicles will be extremely low and the quantities of fuel will be consequently lower.

The number of people will be largely reduced and on the short-term (provided you can organize your food production) food won't be a problem.

If you are some kind of military units (regular or not) you will be interested in getting some kind of fuels and that will be a high priority along food and ammo. Any commander, will be tempted to force the locals in producing some kind of fuels. That commander will either turn the locals into slavery/serfdom or it will force a kind of taxation upon the civilians (if they are its nationals).

IMO the most important fuel source will definitely be wood as you can't feed on it. You'll need it to heat your home, to cook your food, to run your car (provided its old enough and you have the technical knowledge to build a gazogene) and to provide you with some kind of energy (directly or after transforming it into coal). In addition, with the huge reduction in world population, forests will be expending fast and that source will be more available every year.

I agree that alcohol is not always ideal but it still can work and it's not that hard to produce (at a max of 95°). Then, if food will be a priority, wastes won't be that rare.

In former wine region grape production could largely be turned into alcohol. Moreover, in these regions other food products can be grown within your vineyards and, as a result, you can keep the vines and use the land for something else. That is a practice banned today in most countries but, for exemple, in Portugal, until 1990, people were growing olive/fruit trees in the middle of their vines. In addition, with grapes, what you don't eat can be turned into alcohol.

I'm sure that sugar cane will continue to be turned into alcohol as well.

In regions growing potatoes, I can imagine the local authorities forcing people to never eat potatoes with the skin in order to save potatoe skin for other purpose 'such as energy...

If you grow corn or any type of wheat, you might use what remains of the plant (also I don't know for sure).

IMO, even today, using food to make fuel is the most stupid idea ever and probably the most important coming threat for our ecology.

Oil will be available for food as well. Olives are not that good to feed a population and it will be entirely used to make oil (as food and fuel).

Don't forget about land animal/fish grease.

... I forgot about peanuts...

IMO oil will be very important as it is more easily produced than 95° alcohol and because it can be useful for plenty of things as well: light, energy, grease your engines...

I have seen many of you talking of biodiesel. That's nice but there is no point on making biodiesel for a simple reason you don't need it to run your car. The most modern diesel vehicles indeed need biodiesel but that's not the case for the older ones and that might not be the case for many military engines. What you need is simply vegetable oil and a good mechanic (nothing more than for a gazogene).

Currently, France will give you a fine if you put vegetable oil in your car but Belgium and Germany already authorise and push their people to use vegetable oil in their cars. For most people, they take that oil from restaurants after it had been used to cook. Then, that oil is filtered and used to fill the tank. As a result, you can use this oil for your food and recycle it to run your vehicle. Depending on your vehicle you can run it with 30% to 100% of vegetable oil.

The funny part in T2K is that the USA will have become a nation of pedestrian (due to your lack of diesel engines).:D

[Fusilier]

Moreover, in these regions other food products can be grown within your vineyards and, as a result, you can keep the vines and use the land for something else. That is a practice banned today in most countries.

Why is that?

[Mohoender]

Why is that?

As a rule to preserve wine qualities and culture efficiency (often rules nobody truly understand). We are now living in countries full of rules that nobody truly understand and most if not all would be dropped after a Twilight War.

In addition, most of us think in term of monoculture and that will be very unlikely in a T2K world. Everywhere, people will revert to polyculture, growing several crops/vegetables in small reduced areas (or so I think).

In Portugal (Porto Region) people were cultivating vines and olive trees altogether. In the mid-1990s that was forbidden and olive trees were taken out.

[Mohoender]

This is very short and probably full of mistakes but they are only ideas after all.

Fuels:
Fuel shortages quickly became a problem and regular fuels have become very rare. They are essentially used by the militaries and, often, their use by civilians has been forbidden by the law. Even military units are in very short supply of it. When they have it, it has been reserved for tanks and the most important military operations. Daily, operations are carried out by vehicles using other types of fuels.
Alcohol (ethanol) is now more commonly used with regular gas engines. However, mass production of alcohol is often a problem and performances are slightly reduced. In addition, corrosion is a major problem and many engines break down.
Another solution has been widely adopted for former gasoline engines and that is the gasogenes. As during WW2, these devices are increasingly fitted on vehicles that, as a result, run on methanol. The transformation is more important (but rather simple) than with the direct use of ethanol and corrosion has proved to be less of a problem. Performances are also reduced and the device is highly vulnerable if fitted on combat vehicles. However, several trucks and light vehicles not seeing direct combat are fitted with one. The main advantage is that you can burn wood or wastes in the gasogene and run your vehicle.
Crude Vegetal Oil is also used extensively in place of Diesel. That proved to be a very good solution on many occasion and performance are often maintained. However, due to the higher viscosity, regular extended maintenance is needed. In addition, this can’t be used during winter as it freezes between -5°C and -15°C. Another point is important: pre-heating device must be fitted for optimal use. Another advantage with this is that it can be produce from regular mechanical or non-mechanical press.
Lubricants:
Not as obvious as the fuel shortage, the lubricant shortage quickly became a problem and engines were breaking down everywhere. Again crude vegetable oil was used to help and proved to be efficient on many occasions. However, it is not that good for an engine because of the high temperature involved. Nevertheless, most engines after the Twilight War use a mix of mineral and vegetable oil.

Fuel Productions:
Oil remains in small production worldwide and it is still around. It became extremely expensive and reserves are often under a strict control by the local authorities.
Ethanol is widely produced but is seldom found in large quantities. Many communities are producing ethanol but in quantities that are barely enough for local movements. The region where it can be found in the largest quantities is the South American continent.
Methanol is also widely used and produced from gasogenes. These are mostly fitted on trucks and larger vehicles as they are somewhat imposing. Several lighter vehicles are using them as well but at the expanse of internal room. The main advantage of this system is that it runs on wood or wastes.
Crude Vegetable Oil is the most largely used as it is the most easily produced. However, it can be used on diesel engines only and freeze easily. As a result, its rare in the USA and vehicle running on it can seldom be used during winter (As temperatures have dropped after the nuclear exchange…).

[pmulcahy11b]

We are now living in countries full of rules that nobody truly understand and most if not all would be dropped after a Twilight War.

There are laws like that all over the world; you don't know who wrote them, why they wrote them, and in some cases, how the circumstances came about for writing them!

Two from Texas that jump into my mind are: in the State of Texas, you cannot hunt with a sword (a sword being defined by Texas law as as having a total length of 24 inches or more, with a blade of at least 16 inches).

Down south in Corpus Christi, it is illegal to walk your alligator on city sidewalks. I have no idea what the circumstances behind that law were.

[pmulcahy11b]

There are also some military vehicles (mostly older ones, and particularly, it seems, French and Belgian vehicles) that can run off of paraffin. Does that also follow the multifuel rules? What kind of fuel economy are you going to get from paraffin?

[Mohoender]

There are also some military vehicles (mostly older ones, and particularly, it seems, French and Belgian vehicles) that can run off of paraffin. Does that also follow the multifuel rules? What kind of fuel economy are you going to get from paraffin?

The main exemple was the Hispano-Suiza HS110 fitted on the AMX-30s until 1998. It is a multifuel engine. Actually it could work on more fuel types than the three rated on the publications I have seen. According to friends riding it during the late 1980's and 1990's, they had put grease and lubricant (anyway they used much more fuel types than three) to run it on occasions. The main problem was that this engine is considered unreliable to some point. I believe (really unsure) that those same friends were telling me that the engine needed extensive maintenance and used to spend quite some times out of the tank.

Saddly, I have been unable to find anything on that engine on the Web. Paul you know much more about this subject than I do and may be you can succeed where I failed.;)

[Littlearmies]

Why is that?

Hi, largely because the other crops can help work providing nitrogen to the soil - best quality grapes come from vines that have been stressed - that is why it's illegal to irrigate vines in most of Europe (and hence why Central California vineyards, which depend upon irrigation, produce such godawful wines). Roses, planted at the end of vineyard rows, act like canaries in mines to give warnings of disease in the vines.

The benefits of working in the wine trade....

Malc

[Webstral]

Hi, largely because the other crops can help work providing nitrogen to the soil - best quality grapes come from vines that have been stressed - that is why it's illegal to irrigate vines in most of Europe (and hence why Central California vineyards, which depend upon irrigation, produce such godawful wines). Roses, planted at the end of vineyard rows, act like canaries in mines to give warnings of disease in the vines.

The benefits of working in the wine trade....

Malc

You wouldn't hapen to work outside the Central Valley, would you? I believe Napa and Sonoma depend heavily on irrigation, too. Interestingly, they call it quality assurance...

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

I have always wonder why they would good food to make fuel. Like many things about the game original rules, that didn't make sense, but hey it was their game.

[Legbreaker]

This would be why Methanol was included at a cheaper (half) price than Ethanol.
Ethanol requires foodstuffs while methanol is made from basically anything else. (Yes, I know it's more complicated than that, but it is just a game.)

[Raellus]

I think it's pretty much accepted as a given that the game designers wanted a way to make player groups more or less self sufficient when it came to fueling up their one or two vehicles. They probably also wanted to slow vehicle movement so that a group of players couldn't drive halfway across Poland in a single afternoon. Plus, there's no doubt the nuclear exchanges described in GDW canon would pretty much end most conventional fuel production and distribution for at least a decade.

I think the idea is that methanol could be produced with the byproducts of conventional agriculture. Cornstalks, husks, and cobs could be used for fuel while the corn itself would be used as food. That kind of kills two birds with one stone. You wouldn't necessarily need to choose one over the other- you could eat and still brew up fuel meth/eth.

I know it's bad science but a suspension of disbelief is needed here.

Perhaps some sort of enzyme or something was developed to help in the alcohol field brewing process.

[Legbreaker]

I know it's bad science but a suspension of disbelief is needed here.

Perhaps some sort of enzyme or something was developed to help in the alcohol field brewing process.

Well, they did put aliens into Twilight Nightmares, so who knows?

:p

[Targan]

Perhaps some sort of enzyme or something was developed to help in the alcohol field brewing process.

In the RPG Cyberpunk 2020 the main fuel used in vehicles is a (fictitious) type of alcohol they call (IIRC) CHOO2 which provides much more energy when it is combusted than ethanol or methanol. I think maybe it contains extra oxygen molecules compared to natural forms of alcohol but I can't remember exactly (it has been more than a decade since I last played Cyberpunk 2020). In the CP 2020 universe CHOO2 largely replaced fossil fuels and was produced using some kind of genetically engineered bacteria.