DC group work = Canon Version 1.5

[kato13]

Since the DC group canon "debate" seems to be bubbling up again, I have say the following.

If the DC Group ever decides to post their work and if this is still an active forum at the time I am unilaterally declaring their work to be Canon version 1.5 . This will be the law of the land on MY forum.

Given their volume of research, the fact that they have worked longer and harder than anyone else (including the original GDW staff, but probably excluding Paul) and they have been given an approving nod by one of the games creators, I personally feel this is fair. It will also end this argument once an for all. I have literally agonized over this decision because as most of you know I am a pretty light handed admin and imposing my will on others is not something I am comfortable with. However for the overall greater good of the T2k world I feel this has to be done.

Of course anyone can chose to ignore any or all portions of the New 1.5 canon version or to consider it to be as radical of a departure from the V 1.0 canon as version 3.0 is.

I considered putting this up to a vote but did not want the hassle nor ambiguity of an internet poll as any such poll is susceptible to fraud.

However if someone considers this to be an egregious abuse of my admin powers you are free to seek another person to host the forum. If someone else wishes to host the site, a poll must be created on moving the whole site (lock, stock and barrel) to a new location. Such a poll must be posted within the next 90 days or within 45 days of the DC groups posting of their material, it must be anonymous, it must last at least 45 days, and it will be determined by a simple majority. I don't feel the need to worry about fraud on this one because if someone wants to commit fraud to remove me as admin then I really don't want to be here.

If such a vote goes against my continued operation of the site, I will do all the work necessary to move the site including donating my copy of the software to the cause.

Thank you for your attention on this.

-kato13

[Webstral]

I'm not touching this one.

Webstral

[kato13]

I'm not touching this one.

Webstral

If this explodes so be it. If someone wants to take over for me (and a majority of votes support a move) let I will GLADLY give up the reins.

[Webstral]

I, for one, am quite happy with the reins right where they are.

Webstral

[Targan]

Its your forum Kato so of course you have every right to make such a pronouncement. What if you set up a sub forum for the DC Working Group's works? In the same way that the Traveller 2300 forum has a sub forum called Spake's Non-Cannon 2300 Setting? That way anyone who has any major issues with the DC Working Group's work can just not visit that sub forum. No mess, no fuss, and no excuse in the future for any bad blood. For that matter perhaps we could have a Twilight 2013 sub forum as well?

I, for one, am quite happy with the reins right where they are.

Seconded.

[kato13]

Its your forum Kato so of course you have every right to make such a pronouncement. What if you set up a sub forum for the DC Working Group's works? In the same way that the Traveller 2300 forum has a sub forum called Spake's Non-Cannon 2300 Setting? That way anyone who has any major issues with the DC Working Group's work can just not visit that sub forum. No mess, no fuss, and no excuse in the future for any bad blood. For that matter perhaps we could have a Twilight 2013 sub forum as well?


Too many sub-forums weakens a community IMO. This also open up the question of moving all existing posts which some might not consider "canon" into other sub categories. Overall I am against that.

If, after the DC group provides their material, there is a groundswell of support for such a partitioning I will consider it, but from my read of things there probably will not be.

[Dog 6]

Canon Version 1.5 has my vote

[StainlessSteelCynic]

How can it be canon when it hasn't been legally authorised by the original authors?

[kato13]

How can it be canon when it hasn't been legally authorised by the original authors?

It is because I say so.

I don't think the DC group even cares about being "canon". I am just ending this argument.

I have already spelled out the course of action if you object.

This would be my recommended hosting option for anyone who wishes to take over.
http://www.urljet.com/vbulletin-hosting.php

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Kato I am fairly certain nobody here wants to see you leave or see you stop hosting this site. I am quite confident that nobody would vote against you if it was even put to a vote.
From what I have seen of this site and what I have been told about the previous one, this group of people have been incredibly civil to each other compared to many other forums on the net, especially considering the wide range of views and thoughts we have.

The whole debate about canon seems to have been taken far too personally by some of us. Twilight 2000 canon does not simply come into being because we desire it to be so however I don't see your statement as being an abuse of your admin powers but I do see it as the reaction of someone who is probably overworked and underappreciated and perhaps frustrated by all that.

I can understand that but I do believe everyone here is supportive of you even if they don't necessarily support the same things as you. Please don't see critiques of someone else's work as a criticism of them and more importanly, you and please don't feel that you have to take immediate drastic action if something looks as though it may flare up. I believe most people here will pull back before letting it get out of hand - maybe some of us just need to be given a gentle hint sometimes but generally we all get along.

And please do not see my non-acceptance of any work not officially sanctioned by the original authors as canon as being in any way critical of you or this forum. I do object to having something not authorised by the original authors being called 'canon' but that in no way means I want to see this forum explode because of that or see you shut it down or that I do not want to see anyone use that material. It also does not mean that I am saying nobody can or should use that material.

I would like to believe that we can all engage in some healthy debate and have it understood that we are critiquing an idea/notion/the material and not attacking the person (even if it does get a little heated, we are only human and some of us are quite passionate about our likes).

However I do feel very strongly that threatening such drastic action over this particular issue just makes people feel uneasy about discussing anything potentially contentious and that sort of thing usually ends in people being very reserved and preferring to not comment because they worry it will be taken the wrong way.
I for one would rather see people get involved in a debate about such things rather than sit back & say nothing for fear of offending anyone - when everyone sits back for fear of upsetting someone, it means no posts are made and that just leads to the death of the thread, or worse, the forum.

[Mohoender]

This would be my recommended hosting option for anyone who wishes to take over.
http://www.urljet.com/vbulletin-hosting.php

Far too much work! I'm writing and doing researches between 6-10 hours a day (7 days a week sometimes). Of course, most of it doesn't concern T2K materials (done for fun only) but, trust me, you must be somewhat insane to do that.

Still, I consider what Kato has done running this forum way above it and I'm convinced he is more of a fool than I am (or brave, you choose:D). I have been supporting Kato since the beginning and I'll continue to go by his word. Thanks (that's an understatement) and I hope to see this forum around for a long time. :):):)

If not for Kato, I would not have had these great brainstormings (and occasional contests) with all of you.:cool:

[kato13]

However I do feel very strongly that threatening such drastic action over this particular issue just makes people feel uneasy about discussing anything potentially contentious and that sort of thing usually ends in people being very reserved and preferring to not comment because they worry it will be taken the wrong way.
I for one would rather see people get involved in a debate about such things rather than sit back & say nothing for fear of offending anyone - when everyone sits back for fear of upsetting someone, it means no posts are made and that just leads to the death of the thread, or worse, the forum.


After this argument I saw a greater than 66% reduction in posts, threads and unique visitors. It was like a punch in the gut to me after my hard work to build this forum and track down our displaced users.

I kept hoping this would end on its own, but when there is a post trying to entice the DC groups back it rears it ugly head again.

I simply can't stand it anymore. So I AM ending it.

This was not a rash decision. I spent months thinking about this. I looked at all the angles and after much thought this is what I came up with and it will stand.

[cavtroop]

This is OK with me. I love the DC group stuff.

I'd like to see a sub-forum for the DC group, where only they can post (but anyone can read), setup for them to put the information in. All discussions on the info would take place in the main forum, but the sub-forum would give a location to find all of the info easily, and in one place. I'd also love to see the same setup for Webstrals information. Having all that info in one place, easy to get to, would be great.

[fightingflamingo]

This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[General Pain]

Keep doing your excellent work.

I must admit I don't care diddlysquat about canon-this or that...I myselft prefer the other meaning of the word "canon"...yup those things that go booooom..

I'm gratefull for this site and for the hours my fellow posters/designers/gms/players have put into it. Anyway as it have been said before - It's just a game. And if someone makes new rules/timelines/maps or whatnot nobody are pressuring anyone to use it in their campaigns....

There's far more disturbing things we could argue and bicker about.

For god's sake don't move the site!!!!!!!!!

GP

[Rainbow Six]

Keep doing your excellent work.

I must admit I don't care diddlysquat about canon-this or that...I myselft prefer the other meaning of the word "canon"...yup those things that go booooom..

I'm gratefull for this site and for the hours my fellow posters/designers/gms/players have put into it. Anyway as it have been said before - It's just a game. And if someone makes new rules/timelines/maps or whatnot nobody are pressuring anyone to use it in their campaigns....

There's far more disturbing things we could argue and bicker about.

For god's sake don't move the site!!!!!!!!!

GP

Well put General - I totally agree with everything you've said.

[kato13]

I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.

[Raellus]

I kept hoping this would end on its own, but when there is a post trying to entice the DC groups back it rears it ugly head again.


Kato, I hope you're not referring to my post in the "Dear Santa" thread. I was simply stating that I missed the DC Group's contributions, hypothesizing an explanation for their lengthy absence, and trying to encourage them to come back. I was not trying to stir the pot or light the fuse. If I opened old wounds, then I am truly sorry, for that was never my intent.

It's your forum, Kato, so it's your call. I hope you keep it right where it is. IMHO, you've done a fine job and this isn't the first time I've said so.

For the most part, I appreciate the DC Group's contributions. I enjoy reading everyone's take on the Twilight World. I pick and choose what I want to include in mine. Everyone has (and should continue to have) the freedom to use or ignore fan-generated materials. Heck, everyone has the freedom to use or ignore the "official" GDW-produced materials! As far as I'm concerned, the matter of what is or is not canon is really moot. Some of us fall into a very conservative interpretation of what canon is while others here are more liberal. That's fine. We are all T2Kers and we need to try to stick together. I, for one, really regret taking part in any debate regarding what canon is or was or should be. If I'd known this was going to happen, I would have stayed completely out of it.

That said, from now on, I think I'll be reluctant to share dissenting opinions here. Perhaps my own self imposed exhile is in order...

Kato, I hope you stick around as admin.

[kato13]

Rae it is not you buddy. So don't worry.

[Mohoender]

I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.

Kato. You should not feel that way. IMO you have done very well and still do. It was great to have someone to care for those MIA (including myself at some point), to get rid of intruders, bring back wisdom when needed...

For my part, I hope you remain our admin. If you need any help (although I'm a few thousand kilometers away and might not have the proper knowledge) just ask.

To be honest, you don't give easily to anger and show some real patience. If it had been my forum, I would have shot it done and that would have been a terrible mistake.

[Ironside]

As a newcomer to this site I have to say that I found the DC Group's posts fascinating reading and I would hate to see them discontinue posting.

Looking at the archived posts I can see that Kato has done an incredible amount of work and I am very appreciative of it. (I still haven't finished looking through the archived posts, and I keep finding gems in them :D) Kato, IMO this is your board, you do the hard work and we are your guests; all I can do is thank you for all your hard work.

Having the DC Group material as timeline V1.5 seems an excellent idea.

[Benjamin]

I think everyone here should take a note from what happened to the old 2300AD Yahoo groups. Certain people there were such sticklers to canon that the atmosphere became very vile. This led to the formation of a distinct NonCanon group but the damage was done and participation decreased dramatically. Even when the much anticipated 2320 finally came out activity stayed low. (Albeit the publisher of 2320 totally crapped it all to hell.)

Don't let that happen here. Like any RPG its up to the Players and GMs to determine what they are going to use or discard. Canon be damned. Kato is doing a great job, the forum has constant activity and is a really civil place to post and discuss. If Kato wants to declare something canon, as it pertains to these boards, than so be it. He and the DC Group can't beam it into your brains at night and they can't lord over your own games. So you are still free to pick and choose.

I say Good Job Kato, I'll still be here lurking around.

Benjamin

[micromachine]

Hello All;

I seldom post and enjoy all of the varied opinions that have been posted here. However, we must give kudos to Kato for keeping this group together and thriving. Without his effort, we would be blundering about the web like a bunch of lovesick cattle.
"Canon" or Non canon" do not have a place here, as both notions are acceptable to me. I enjoy the material too much to let another's opinion cloud my interpretation of the T2K world.
Kato, please keep up the good work and I hope that you will continue your tenure as admin.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I just want to reiterate that any discussion of moving the site was a reflection of my feeling that I potentially failed as an admin. I did not mean it as a threat. Like I said I agonized over this decision. I reviewed all options. Every path had an element I was uncomfortable with in terms of my will superseding that of the group. That is why i felt putting my future as admin in the hands of the group felt fair to me.

Kato I understand what you did and why you did it but please, please, please don't ever think that you have failed as an admin here because you most certainly have not. I understand your viewpoint, I just hope you understand why I don't agree with it and why it does not mean that I don't support this website and your administration of it.

[Legbreaker]

http://forum.juhlin.com/showpost.php?p=15127&postcount=10

What he said...

From my perspective, I've no problem with anything anyone does as long as they don't (or others on their behalf) demand it be taken as canon if it's not been authorised by the original producers of the game.

The vast amount of work produced by Moe, Webstral, and the DC group (amongst others) falls squarely into this category. It's not canon, but it makes some damn fine reading and has some very good ideas that can be translated into almost anyone's game world.

As far as a drop in post rates, visitors, etc, this happens from time to time. Maybe something was happening in the world during that period which meant those who may normally have looked in were busy doing something else with their time (maybe it was just that the lawns needed mowing - who knows?)

A lack of visitors and posts should not be taken personally although I certainly understand the feeling. It's hard not to feel negative when there's no obvious explaination.

Kato, you've built a great little corner of the net here in a relatively short period of time. We might have the odd "spirited" debate now and then, but without debate all we're doing is patting each other on the back and not growing. Sure, like any family we've had a few occasional blow ups, but it's rather doubtful there's ever been any true bad blood - the majority of the time it's likely to be simple misunderstanding (damn hard to convey emotion and other subtlties by text alone).

[TiggerCCW UK]

Hello All;

I seldom post and enjoy all of the varied opinions that have been posted here. However, we must give kudos to Kato for keeping this group together and thriving. Without his effort, we would be blundering about the web like a bunch of lovesick cattle.
"Canon" or Non canon" do not have a place here, as both notions are acceptable to me. I enjoy the material too much to let another's opinion cloud my interpretation of the T2K world.
Kato, please keep up the good work and I hope that you will continue your tenure as admin.

Couldn't say it better myself.

[Cdnwolf]

KATO 13 - Don't you ever ever think of leaving... we will track you down and bring you back kicking and screaming...

CANON 1.5 has my vote. Now lock the thread and lets all caring on playing the game.

[Caradhras]

I have been looking in here with the odd post whilst running my T2K campaign for quite a while, not a lot compared to some I know.

As has already been said - it is a very mature and intelligent group especially compared to other forums. Post have been down recently and I was wondering why and disappointed, even when playing a different game (as we are atm) it is well worth popping in here for the reading.

I know the canon is vital to some of you that put in huge amounts of time and thought, but to the majority (I guess?) we either dont care or adapt it ourselves to suit.

As far as this forum goes, it's Kato's and if he wants a canon to be the 'official' one for this forum - then sure thing np imo (not that my vote counts for much:).

[headquarters]

I have been looking in here with the odd post whilst running my T2K campaign for quite a while, not a lot compared to some I know.

As has already been said - it is a very mature and intelligent group especially compared to other forums. Post have been down recently and I was wondering why and disappointed, even when playing a different game (as we are atm) it is well worth popping in here for the reading.

I know the canon is vital to some of you that put in huge amounts of time and thought, but to the majority (I guess?) we either dont care or adapt it ourselves to suit.

As far as this forum goes, it's Kato's and if he wants a canon to be the 'official' one for this forum - then sure thing np imo (not that my vote counts for much:).

I feel much the same way .
I dont care either way .As long as the forum stays safe and alive .

Someone wants to call it canon - go right ahead .
Its canon v1.5 and everyone is free to use as they see fit .There are v.1.0,2.0,2.1,2.2 and 2013 to choose from ,and now 1.5 not to mention all the heretical apocryfa out there ..

I must admit I am a bit shocked that the discussion is putting people off the forum etc .Everyone has their own view-we share them and discuss -thats the way it i ssupposed to be.

Whatever problems anyone has had about someones material and their claiming it is canon or denying it to be ,I sure hope that the process to forget and move on is begun.

Scandinavians are mostly heretic heathens anyway - we run our own timelines most of us ...:D

lets not splinter - we are few and the hordes of non players are limitless..

[General Pain]

I feel much the same way .
I dont care either way .As long as the forum stays safe and alive .

Someone wants to call it canon - go right ahead .
Its canon v1.5 and everyone is free to use as they see fit .There are v.1.0,2.0,2.1,2.2 and 2013 to choose from ,and now 1.5 not to mention all the heretical apocryfa out there ..

I must admit I am a bit shocked that the discussion is putting people off the forum etc .Everyone has their own view-we share them and discuss -thats the way it i ssupposed to be.

Whatever problems anyone has had about someones material and their claiming it is canon or denying it to be ,I sure hope that the process to forget and move on is begun.

Scandinavians are mostly heretic heathens anyway - we run our own timelines most of us ...:D

lets not splinter - we are few and the hordes of non players are limitless..

...and I thought that it was everyone else that was a heretic hehe

[boogiedowndonovan]

I stayed out of the whole "what is canon" discussion, partially by choice, partially because I've got other things going on.

I did not know that it caused the DC group to stop posting here, nor did I know of all the hard feelings going on.

To be frank, I have discussed the DC group with the mod in the past. I think I may be in Rae's and stainlessteelcynic's boat.

However, If the owner/moderator wants to call the DC groups work canon, then so be it. The DC group does good work and they are gracious enough to share it. We are free to use it as we like in our own campaigns. I've modded the T2k canon (orbats, timeline, game mechanics) enough in my own games.

just my opinions, and you know what they say about 'em.

-bdd
(winner of the St. Ignatius Class of 1989 "Most Laid Back" award)

[natehale1971]

Kato totally has my support on this. Considering the DC working group as T2K 1.5 is a wonderful thing. It's what i've considered it for a very, very long time. Looks like this forum will get to be a major part of my day agian! :)

if they want to use the logo i worked on i'm more than happy to let them use it, since i've used their work as inspiration for my own T2k campaign...

http://www.digifruit.com/aimi/natehale/Twilight_2000_logo-00.png

[copeab]

If the DC Group ever decides to post their work and if this is still an active forum at the time I am unilaterally declaring their work to be Canon version 1.5 . This will be the law of the land on MY forum.


While I can understand you wanting to support the DC Group's work. I think this is a bit excessive.

My website is filled with over 400 characters and vehicles, so I can appreciate the amount of research and creative work they have done. However, I write because I enjoy it (I use less than 1/10 of it myself) and post it because I think others can find it useful. I know many people won't use the material and a few will soundly criticize it. This does not mean I stop creating characters and vehicles or stop posting them.

Most of my vehicles are historical WWII designs. It would make me uncomfortable if some GURPS forum or mailing list declared those design to be canon. While I've spent a lot of time and work on those designs, I'm not going to think that someone can't do a better job or better research. I'd want the designs to be used because the people want to use them, not because there told they had to use then.

It's one thing if this forum was dedicated to an individual T2K campaign. But were I in the DC Group, I would feel uncomfortable with you decision.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Just my 0.02c worth and a somewhat belated attempt to pour oil on troubled waters.

Copeab I completely understand your point of view because I am quite sympathetic towards it. I have already expressed the view that material can only be canon if it is declared so by the owners of the intellectual property rights, however...

I have come to see Kato's actions now more as a triage type operation - I think it's something he felt needed to be done urgently to prevent any real animosity taking root on the forum. Despite what has happened here in the past, this forum hasn't really seen a full-on flamewar or the kind of juvenile one-upmanship that dominates some other forums. Many of us have experienced it and I think Kato was reacting to the situation before something like that could happen here.
Personally, that's exactly the type of action I want to see from an admin and while I don't agree with his decision, I can see why he took it. Fortunately for all of us, he has been gracious enough to let us express any disagreements without slamming down the 'ban-hammer' but I believe you have raised a valid point.

Perhaps the members of the DC Working Group themselves should have some input into the future of their material here? There is obviously an interest, even some demand, for their work.
I think some of the suggestions put forward such as giving them a sub-forum to post their work are good ideas.

[kato13]

Brandon sent you a PM.

I just want to add in defense of my actions that there has been a sharp tick up in action by registered users since I made my pronouncement. Of course it is far to little data to make any real solid judgment, but it does make me feel better.

I will admit frustration drove some of my timing, but the approaching holiday will mean a revisit by many dormant users (due to more available free time) and I felt getting things jumping again before they return might get us back to where we were rather than convince them that this forum is not a place they want to be.

[weswood]

Kato, as everybody has said, you're doing an excellent job as administrator.

Calling the DC group's work 1.5 is great, it does need a name.

As far as the dropage in posts, sometimes we don't all have something to say. I try not to post too much, unless I can usefully contribute, and there's so many people here smarter, more educated and more experienced than me, that htere's just not much to say.


And MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[Targan]

While I can understand you wanting to support the DC Group's work. I think this is a bit excessive.
Copeab I completely understand your point of view because I am quite sympathetic towards it. I have already expressed the view that material can only be canon if it is declared so by the owners of the intellectual property rights, however...

I'm glad others have had the courage to say these things because I didn't. I am now emboldened sufficiently to say my piece.

I love this forum and I have respect and affection for its posters. It pained me to watch "The Troubles" develop here during 2009 and it pained me even more to see Kato and the DC Working Group withdraw from posting here. I support efforts to bring them back.

I enjoy reading work produced by posters here and the DC Working Group in particular produces excellent work. I want to read more of it and I have used and hopefully will use some of their work in my own campaigns. But it is not canon.

From what I have read the results of their revisions would be that the US would have far, far greater military might at the end of the Twilight War (especially the US Navy) than what canon suggests. That means that to me it doesn't have the same "feeling" as canon T2K and the future in the timeline would be radically different to canon. Basically I think that if you went with the DC Working Group's take on things in its entirety the US would be a super power again within a decade or two.

If I was currently serving in the US military or had not so long ago ended a US military career and I was writing T2K revisionist material I would probably go down a similar route to the DC Working Group. For them it must be nigh on unthinkable that the US would ever fall as low as is depicted in T2K canon. I sympathise with their view and I think I understand where they are coming from. But to put my point in a nutshell, the DC Working Group's revisions make the title of "The Last Submarine" trilogy of modules a joke.

Although Kato has decided against it I still think the DC Working Group's work, and discussions about it specifically, should be placed in its own sub-forum. That way if anyone has a serious problem with the work they can simply not visit that sub forum. If they do visit that sub forum and continually criticise the work they should be suspended or banned.

Regular visitors may have noticed that I have made (I think) only one post since Kato's announcement. That is because I have been thinking about the decision and the ramifications it will have on this forum. If for the purposes of discussions on this forum we are required to regard the DC Working Group's work as canon I am afraid I will no longer feel comfortable posting here and my input will be minimal.

This is not an ultimatum. I respect Kato's judgement and if his decision proves to be what is best for the forum then who am I to stand in its way. Increased input from the whole far outweighs reduced input from me.

With the greatest of respect,

Targan.

[Webstral]

Regular visitors may have noticed that I have made (I think) only one post since Kato's announcement. That is because I have been thinking about the decision and the ramifications it will have on this forum. If for the purposes of discussions on this forum we are required to regard the DC Working Group's work as canon I am afraid I will no longer feel comfortable posting here and my input will be minimal.

If things work out that way, I feel comfortable speaking for the overwhelming majority of us in saying that we will miss you, Targan. You've always been focused on improving the product.

I think there's room, even in "canon", for flexibility. I'm not feeling myself obliged to support 100% of the DC Group's material any more than I feel myself or they feel themselves obliged to support 100% of the GDW material in print. As many of our Australian brethren have pointed out, in sentiment if not in words, ultra-orthodoxy becomes stifling. I don't think anyone here is interested in establishing a Roman Catholic Church of or a Soviet Communist Party of Twilight: 2000.

By the same token, I believe Kato wants to rise above the sort of knee-jerk reaction against work like the DC Group's work ("That's not what the Bible says! Out with you, Martin Luther!") that was demonstrated in extremis a little while ago. What began as a discussion about what was possble, practicable, likely devolved into an argument over possession: in other words, who has the right to make claims about the shape of the Twilight: 2000 universe. Kato, who is understandably more sympathetic to contributors who invest massive quantities of time and effort into comprehensive products than those whose mannerisms, albeit probably not their intent, approach those of hecklers, has made a decision which I believe is meant to put off the near-heckling. Disagree with the DC Group as you see fit, gentlemen. I doubt the DC Group or our administrator are going to take particular umbrage so long as we can either come to some agreement or agree to disagree.

Webstral

[Jason Weiser]

I have refrained from comment until now because I felt that it was prudent and well advised to do so. My thoughts as a member of the DC Working Group are this: (be advised these comments are my own and do not represent the group as a whole).

As for canon or not, I don't care. You heard me, I don't. At the end of the day, this is a labor of love for all involved. I understand what Kato's trying to do, and lemme say that I am honored, and so is FF and Chico. But, and here's the but, at least as far as I am concerned. And Targan knows this because we discussed it in a PM, my issues (I won't speak for Chico or FF), were as Kato put it, with a single poster. I think some of my posts made that clear at the time. Targan, I'd ask you to reconsider leaving. This matter does need to be resolved, and I would ask that cooler heads prevail (Yeah, I know, coming from me). Do I have the solution? I think a sub-forum might be an idea, but and here's the but, it would cause a split in the board, and frankly, that would be a bad thing.

Different takes on a game are a good thing. The differing perspectives can offer some measure of food for thought. As I and the other members of the DC Working Group have said and will continue to maintain...don't like it, don't use it. Our main focus as a group is mainly to fill what we see as "holes" in canon with materials now available. At least, it was our emphasis when we began. I still think it is.

As for new material...here's the rub. Chico's working his ass off trying to get everything ready for our Third World War game to game out 1996-1997, and that's going to define how we write the vehicle guides as those will be our combat histories. Will that mean some divisions surviving when in canon, they did not, and vice versa? Maybe, but I have a funny feeling on the whole, it's going to go ala canon. Heck, I am going to be the Soviet commander...wanna guess how much I am going to get hammered? :cool:

So, what can you guys out there do? Be patient, and instead of screaming at each other the canon "how many angels can be made to dance on the head of a pin" argument, why not take a page from Traveller and use the acronym "IMT2KU", or "In My Twilight 2000 Universe", they came up with so they don't kill each other...and they somehow still manage to reenact the Rebellion daily.......:confused:

[Targan]

If things work out that way, I feel comfortable speaking for the overwhelming majority of us in saying that we will miss you, Targan.

I'm just going to lay low on the forum for a while and see how things pan out. I'm not intending to up and quit permanently.

[fightingflamingo]

I had written a long response which I lost as I timed out. I may or may not reconstruct and post later... let's just say as another member of the DC Group I'm close to Jason's response but longer.

[kato13]

I had written a long response which I lost as I timed out. I may or may not reconstruct and post later... let's just say as another member of the DC Group I'm close to Jason's response but longer.

I have increased the standard cookie time to 30 min.

It is funny it has happened to me a dozen times but I never even thought about fixing it until i realized it inconvenienced someone else. I guess never thought about others laboring over posts the same way I do.

If you guys have issues on the site like this please don't be afraid to mention them. I may not tackle them right away but I truly do want to make this the best experience possible.

[fightingflamingo]

Thanks Kato, I'll try again in a bit...

[fightingflamingo]

general, I’m in agreement with Mr. Weiser. There are some differences, nuanced maybe, but differences they remain. So I’ll try to explain my position as best I can without diverging into a rambling mess or a rant, and If I do so my apologies in advance. My comments are mine alone, and do not represent any other member of the DC Working Group (contributing or otherwise).

As to the Canonicity of the DC Working Groups work, this really doesn’t matter to me. It certainly isn’t canon in the narrowly defined view of what some posters have stated, since it wasn’t produced by GDW. However, then from the first time any GM touches “Escape from Kalisz” every campaign is noncanonical from that point forward. Second, the original game creators left so much of the back story vague, that I cannot accept that there is any issue with creating material for personal use, and displaying it for others. I would not consider any such material canon in any sense, it simply is our vision for the T2K universe, and it is freely presented for others to use, adapt, or discard depending on their own needs, desires, and campaigns.

IMHO our work at the DC Group started simply as an effort to fill in the blanks, left out by canon. We diverged almost immediately from that when we adopted Webstral’s “the Storm in Germany” along with the core of the V1 history, as our agreed starting point (within the DC group). As we did research, we came upon different issues which we felt needed to be addressed in what we perceived as a logical manner, based on RL Cold War planning from the mid to late 1980’s, and extrapolated what our best guess would be regarding that planning had the Cold War continued into the 1990’s. This has lead us to look issues like Naval Power (to include CW planned building schedules), Mobilization Plans (NATO & WP), national industrial output & it’s mobilization for war, etc. Critics have said that we give too much strength to the U.S., maybe, but on balance I think we’ve been fair to every participant in the war as evidenced by the Massive WP OOB which Chico recently posted.

As we researched and addressed those issues, more questions and gaps appeared to us (perhaps we dug too deeply, but we for the most part enjoy doing the work), and we felt compelled to address them, or at least talk about them. From this point I was my intention to build a comprehensive vision of the T2K world with likeminded enthusiasts, for a game I’ve loved for over two decades that is internally consistent, and follows our shared perception of theT2K world. Call it T2K: DCWG.

Others in the group have felt that some of our critics have been on the verge of personal attacks regarding the content of some of our posts. I personally have not felt this way about any of my posts on this or the previous board, but I have seen responses here that seemed to take on that character which were directed towards others in the DC Group. I find it juvenile, and while it will not stop me from posting, I can see where if would drive others to a position of “F-This, F-Them” well you get the point.

Our material is not Canon. While I appreciate the intent of Kato’s elevation of our status to that of Canon, it seems inappropriate to me. Use, adapt, or discard our material as you wish. We don’t do it to force it on you; we do it because we like doing it. If the board likes something, of course I’m happy (more so if I contributed to the product), but that’s not my motivation. My motivation is to create a T2K vision I’m happy with, and would use as a back drop to a campaign.

Personal attacks are not good, for the community as a whole. Any criticism should be view (and I try to do so) as an attempt by the critic to help the author improve, or point out issues that may have been overlooked with an eye towards improving the overall quality of fan produced material in our community. When this devolves into arguments over canonicity, it discourages some from posting their Ideas; when in truth everything everyone creates for their own T2K visions in not canonical, and that is OK.
If our vision of T2K changes history for another game we don’t play… ummm I really can’t say I care, I don’t play T2300. If you do, you don’t have to use our stuff, or play an alternate T2300, whatever floats your boat. We just aim to present an internally consistent vision of the T2K world, our T2K world, T2K: DCWG. Use what you like, discard what you like (or everything), or amend our work to suit your needs.

I don’t think I’d like to see a separate sub forum for our work, as I’m interested in the comments others make on our works, and hearing constructive criticism. I think that a sub forum will just isolate us from the remainder of this community, which I don’t view as a positive outcome.

One Semester left of Grad School, hopefully after May, if my kids let me I will be once again producing closer to my former level, which was present on the prior board.

Kato, thanks for providing this forum, and I wish you the best in your personal trials.

To the rest of you, let us all keep this discourse civil, at it provides an escape for more than one of us, from life’s trials, so let’s keep it civil, or better yet fun.

One Semester left of Grad School, hopefully after May, if my kids let me I will be once again producing closer to my former level, which was present on the prior board.

[simonmark6]

"What's in a name?
That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet."

I have been reluctant to contribute to this debate until I'd clarified my thoughts in order to avoid offending anyone. if my comments still do that, I apologise in advance.

Firstly, I am very grateful for the work of the DC Group (who have never, ever claimed that their work is canon) and all other major contributors to our love of the game, they make the world of my imagination richer and for that, I can't thank them enough.

Secondly, whatever we call that work is largely a matter of semantics, legally, it can't be called canon, however if Kato wants to call it that, I have no problem, it's only a name.

Thirdly, I'd like to bring up the point that I think Webstral mentioned in another thread about feedback on submissions. I'd suggest that posters say if their work is a finished product put up for the interest and use of others, or a draft that invites criticism and feedback. If it's a finished product, people repliying to the post should just take it or leave it rather than debate its merits since it isn't going to be changed: if you like it, say thanks, if you don't, say nothing or post a finished piece of work that reflects your point of view.

If a piece requests feedback, healthy debate is to be expected, and the author may get something they didn't want, that's the danger of asking for feedback. It's also the benefit, because you may get feedback that helps you improve your work, either way, you take the risk by inviting feedback.

Please note, I'm assuming that feedback will remain the relatively civilised and informed responses we've had so far, flaming and thuggery are never to be tolerated even if feedback is invited.

As for nomenculture, if you want to use Canon 1.5 it makes no real difference to me, however if we are sticking with the religious overtones, the "Apocrypha" has much more flavour.

Or what about the DC Univerese? Or does that have another meaning?

Again, if I have offended, I apologise wholeheartedly.

[Raellus]

Thirdly, I'd like to bring up the point that I think Webstral mentioned in another thread about feedback on submissions. I'd suggest that posters say if their work is a finished product put up for the interest and use of others, or a draft that invites criticism and feedback. If it's a finished product, people repliying to the post should just take it or leave it rather than debate its merits since it isn't going to be changed: if you like it, say thanks, if you don't, say nothing or post a finished piece of work that reflects your point of view.

If a piece requests feedback, healthy debate is to be expected, and the author may get something they didn't want, that's the danger of asking for feedback. It's also the benefit, because you may get feedback that helps you improve your work, either way, you take the risk by inviting feedback.

Please note, I'm assuming that feedback will remain the relatively civilised and informed responses we've had so far, flaming and thuggery are never to be tolerated even if feedback is invited.

I wholeheartedly second this suggestion. I think authors of user-created material need to clearly state whether or not they want feedback and/or constructive critisism. If an author states that they don't want feedback, and a reader doesn't like what he sees, the reader should respect the author's intent, keep quiet, and ignore it. The readers don't have to use the material in their T2KU.

On the other hand, if an author invites feedback, readers/responders need to be as civil and constructive as possible.

As Jason reiterated, I also think taking a page out of Traveller and applying the IMT2KU tag to user generated material or anything that diverges from GDW's published source material. I think it helps to remember that we all, at some point or another, and to some degree, diverge from "canon" (i.e. GDW's published materials) any time we play or GM Twilight 2000. Arguing about what is or is not canon is counterproductive.

We are the keepers of the fire. Any time we lose a member, that fire dims a little bit.

Targan, we haven't always agreed on everything (I'd like to think we've been in agreement more often than not) but I've always respected your opinions and valued your insights. And, your campaign stories are legendary.:D Please don't scale back your participation here. I think that we're all trying to work through this upheaval and come out the other side a stronger, wiser, more tolerant group.