Coolest Camo

[Raellus]

I'm in the mood for a poll. I've been thinking about and researching the appearance of soldiers of the various nationalities involved in combat in the Twilight War's ETO and I've definitely developed my own preferences and opinions. I thought it might be fun to discuss this topic here.

*CADPAT was rolled out in '95 or '96 (RW), so it would probably be somewhat rare and a lot of Canadian troops would probably be wearing their old, plain green fatigues. On the other hand, the prewar Canadian military was relatively small so maybe a larger proportion of them would have CADPAT by late '97.

**From photos of Russian Federation troops in Chechnya (and Georgia), it looks like at least a dozen different camo uniforms were in use in the mid-'90s to early 2000s. I've seen coveralls, smocks, fatigues, etc. Not sure what to do for the Soviet poll choice.

NOTE: The poll is set so that you can pick more than one but please don't post more than two favorites.

BTW, my fav is the Bundeswher Flecktarn pattern.

[Rainbow Six]

BTW, my fav is the Bundeswher Flecktarn pattern.

Flecktarn gets my vote also.

[pmulcahy11b]

Coolest? My vote would be the Vietnam-Era Tiger pattern. Not the best pattern, but it does look cool.

Best? As much as it pains my Army soul to say so, I think its the US Marine digital camo. (Yes, I know they stole the idea from the Canadians, but they improved it.) The Army ACUs -- I simply don't believe in "One camo pattern fits all."

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I too like the Tiger Stripe pattern but as for what I think is the coolest, I'm not entirely sure but I'm going with the crowd and picking Flecktarn.
I kind of like this Brazilian version of the French lizard pattern so it would be my second choice.
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=289

For the "What the hell where they thinking?" I would have to pick the Libyan 'Africa Corps' pattern
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=176
For the one I want to wear if I'm going to take drugs, this one from Indonesia has to be one of the best, besides, nobody will be able to tell if you spill any drinks on it
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=226
and last, for kind of cool but not quite cool enough
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=192

[Raellus]

Thanks for the cool link SSC. When I lived in Ecuador in '87-'89, the army down there wore a lizard/tiger-stripe style camo kind of like that Brazilian AF. They had a cool mongrel mix of almost obsolete weapons from all over the place- Uzis and FN FALs, Puma and Gazelle helis, Sepecat Jaguars, Kfirs, and Mirage F-1 fighters... Independence Day was usually awesome.

[pmulcahy11b]

For the "What the hell where they thinking?" I would have to pick the Libyan 'Africa Corps' pattern
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=176

Don't worry, it's not an enemy troop -- it's just a map of Africa---

For the one I want to wear if I'm going to take drugs, this one from Indonesia has to be one of the best, besides, nobody will be able to tell if you spill any drinks on it
http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=226

For some reason, the song Hendrix's "Purple Haze" came immediately to mind when I saw that one...

[Muti]

Soviet camo for me!

[Legbreaker]

How can anyone go past the love hearts and bunny rabbits on the Australian DPC?

http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00001.php

Hmm, after a quick look through, I'm really liking this site!
http://www.kamouflage.net/

[kato13]

How can anyone go past the love hearts and bunny rabbits on the Australian DPC?

http://www.kamouflage.net/resource/gif/showthru.gif



Apparently they don't want people stealing images. There is a blank gif over the image. That is actually kinda common nowadays :(

I think this page will work.
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00001.php

[Raellus]

I like the current Aussie camo. It kind of looks like the leopard spot camo that some U.S. Marine Corps (and SEAL and GB) units wore in the '40s-early '60s, but much more subtle (and, I should imagine, more effective).

I didn't include it in the poll since you probably wouldn't see it in the ETO and I had to set a limit somewhere- otherwise, there'd be dozens of poll choices.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I like the current Aussie camo. It kind of looks like the leopard spot camo that some U.S. Marine Corps (and SEAL and GB) units wore in the '40s-early '60s, but much more subtle (and, I should imagine, more effective).

I didn't include it in the poll since you probably wouldn't see it in the ETO and I had to set a limit somewhere- otherwise, there'd be dozens of poll choices.

Yeah I should have thought of that when I picked the Brazilian uniform as my second choice... I guess in order to stick with the ETO I would choose the French Lizard pattern
By the way here is another camouflage collector's site
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/english.htm

[Targan]

I choose "Other" (Auscam), and not just for patriotic reasons. I think it looks really cool. Like Paul I also liked the Vietnam War era tiger stripe.

Auscam would be incredibly rare in the ETO but it would be there. At least one canon mini-module (What's Polish For G'day) is about Australian troops operating in the ETO.

[Grimace]

Looking through that site with all of the various camo patterns on it I have decided to go with "Other". The coolest looking one, in my opinion, is the Lizard pattern used by Cyprus. Kinda tiger-stripe-ish, but better looking IMO.

[General Pain]

http://camo.henrikc.dk/details.asp?autono=157

But on the other hand a picture with each alternative answer would be great in future polls...

and maybe even seperate polls for
winter
urban
desert
woodland
night
...other

[Canadian Army]

*CADPAT was rolled out in '95 or '96 (RW), so it would probably be somewhat rare and a lot of Canadian troops would probably be wearing their old, plain green fatigues. On the other hand, the prewar Canadian military was relatively small so maybe a larger proportion of them would have CADPAT by late '97.

The CAnadian Disruptive PATtern (CADPAT) became the standard issue for the Army in 2002, with the Air Force following suit in 2004. Uniforms and equipment in CADPAT material replaced the olive green material in use since the early 1960s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CADPAT

[Fusilier]

The CAnadian Disruptive PATtern (CADPAT) became the standard issue for the Army in 2002

But much of that reason is due to delays with product quality difficulties. I first saw sets during the late 90s with T&E. That said, it'd still be very rare and probably only for units deployed in Canada in small numbers in localized places. Perhaps to distinguish certain units from pro-Quebec or other rebellious forces.

[Canadian Army]

I will ask my brother about CADPAT, he would know; but he is probable busy, he became a father again yesterday afternoon for the second time. So I guess I will have to wait.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I had come to believe from a few things I had read that CADPAT was developed in the early 1990s and was taken on as the official uniform in 1997. Seems I was only partly correct.
This site mentions that initial trials were done in 1998 with another lot of trials done in 2001 so it looks as though there was a fair bit of time between intitial development and large scale issue
http://www.hyperstealth.com/CADPAT-MARPAT.htm
I think it would be believable that development could have been sped up due to the war between Soviets and Chinese and so while it would be rare, it could have found its way to Europe when NATO and WTO clashed.

[Fusilier]

...initial trials were done in 1998 with another lot of trials done in 2001 so it looks as though there was a fair bit of time between intitial development and large scale issue

Yeah, we had problems with the fabric maintaining the colors and IR limiting substances by not fading on the first couple of washes - a problem that actually persisted for a little while until it was addressed again much later. There was also basic manufacturing issues... some of mine simple fell apart or unraveled after only a little usage.

Speeding up production probably meant a lot of these problems were overlooked and as a result discarded by the troops rather quickly in favor of the old sets.

[pmulcahy11b]

Yeah, we had problems with the fabric maintaining the colors and IR limiting substances by not fading on the first couple of washes - a problem that actually persisted for a little while until it was addressed again much later. There was also basic manufacturing issues... some of mine simple fell apart or unraveled after only a little usage.

The BDUs were also designed to absorb IR...but it washed out fast. Not long after I got on active duty, I was looking through NODs at some of our other platoon members. I asked my squad leader (can't remember his name) why they were showing up so well if the BDUs absorbed IR.

He asked me: "Have you washed your uniform yet?" I answered, "Yes, Corporal." He said, "Then you look just like them in NODs."

*NODs= Night Observation Devices -- the common slang at the time for night vision goggles.

[Raellus]

IIRC, the U.S. produced a night-time desert camo suit overlaid with a grid pattern. I can't remember the name for this uni. Supposedly, the grid pattern made the suit harder to pick out by NODs. Haven't seen the suits since the late '80s and early '90s so...

Does this mean they didn't work as advertised? Or what?

[natehale1971]

IIRC, the U.S. produced a night-time desert camo suit overlaid with a grid pattern. I can't remember the name for this uni. Supposedly, the grid pattern made the suit harder to pick out by NODs. Haven't seen the suits since the late '80s and early '90s so...

Does this mean they didn't work as advertised? Or what?

I remember getting one of those. If i remember correctly it was officially called "Desert, Nighttime" and you could get it reversable with either coffee stains or chocolate chip camo on the other side. I use to have a poncho with desert nighttime on one side and coffee stains on the other.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From what a friend said to me, the night desert camouflage doesn't work as well against newer night vision gear particularly thermal imagers. That's probably why it isn't still in use maybe?

[kato13]

"Night Desert" performed worse than every other camouflage (including overwhites) during some unofficial field trials. That is a shame I thought it looked cool.

http://yarchive.net/mil/night_camo_clothing.html

[chico20854]

I managed to pick up a couple complete sets of the Danish and Polish camos (including in Goretex) and have been spotted pimping both around town from time to time!

[HorseSoldier]

In the T2K timeline for Europe, probably the Norwegian and Swedish patterns -- always liked the lines of both. Though I liked the old Austrian camo that they phased out in favor of OD green back in the 70s I think. T2K globally -- some of the South African patterns from back then were really cool.

Real world, Multicam rules the roost right now, though there are some quality competitors out there and coming online. ACUpat gets a solid nod as they worst camouflage fielded since the French though baby blue overcoats would help hide their guys if they were skylined on the horizon.

Oh, and the Soviet "Flora" and "Dubok" patterns are pretty cool, and would be T2K current, I think.

[Dog 6]

British DPM got my vote.

[enrious]

Couldn't chose between Flectar and DPM.

[pmulcahy11b]

I do think the new combat uniform that is being fielded by the US Army in Afghanistan better than the ACUs, but then again, I just don't agree with the concept of "one camo pattern fits all," and the new uniform is supposed to be another universal camouflage pattern that is to eventually be issued to all US soldiers.

[perardua]

I don't suppose anyone has read much about the British Army's (and eventually the rest of the British forces), PECOC programme, which will be replacing Combat Soldier 95 and the traditional DPM pattern sometime in the near to mid future?

Recent rumblings (mainly from an ARRSE member who is a member of the trials and development team) seem to indicate that it is actually both a very good equipment set and camouflage scheme, should the MoD pull their finger out and and field it in the way it is intended.

As for the specific camouflage pattern, a lot of pictures of different trials patterns have appeared online, though I believe a final version has yet to be settled on (though a Crye-like multicam seems likely). By all accounts it will likely retain the same general colour mix as DPM, but in a different pattern and ratio to obtain a better camouflage effect. The programme managers are pushing for retaining a desert pattern rather than going for an all-purpose camo.

Basic issue will also become more sensible. For example, the current issue of CS95 includes two identical DPM smocks. The PECOC equivalent proposes the issue of two externally identical smocks (to prevent infuriated RSMs, WOs, and other people of that nature), but which will have different properties with regard to warmth, etc, thus providing a greater range of capabilities.

Even more interesting are the tales of all the anciliary parts to the kit, and the rumours of what equipment will become core issue. On the table at the moment is a proposal to make some form of body armour part of every soldier's basic issue, as no-one deploys without it, and most training is conducted with it, although presently it tends to come from a central pool that is dished out on an as needed basis. Furthermore, the plan is to have additional kinds of body armour system available depending on role and theatre. Webbing will be updated, again with several setups available, though an improved version of the current belt kit is the main focus, given that it is very popular with troops and quite versatile. The intent is to issue several more pouches of varying types than you need, so you can tailor it to your needs. Bergens, daysacks, assault vests, helmets, eyewear, etc all fall under the programme, and the plan is to integrate all the equipment worn by soldiers, rather than the present mess of things introduced a bit at a time. Interestingly, rather than order items in one huge lump and be stuck issuing them from here to forever, PECOC equipment will be obtained in relatively small numbers, the idea being that as each run of kit nears its end, improvements can be easily integrated into the next version. This pretty much formalises the present system of operational kitting anyway - the squadron we took over from had slightly better stuff than those before them, we had slightly improved kit over them, and our successors had better gear than us. The idea is to explicitly build that assumption into the kitting system and thus get better kit all round.

The only downside, of course, is that all this good stuff has to be paid for, and someone will work out a way of cutting the budget, and thus the quality, somewhere.

Anyway, interesting proposal, the troops trialling the kit have been very favourable, and the project team has shown itself to be very willing to come round to units and show them the gear and gather opinions. If it works, it could well be a model of how to procure equipment. Worth keeping an eye on.

[HorseSoldier]

I thought the British had already given the nod to the MTP pattern, which is basically DPM reworked by Crye using a multicam color palette.

[perardua]

It's in use in Afghanistan, and it's the leading PECOC candidate, but it's still not absolutely firm yet.

[enrious]

PECOC - http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=pecoc

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

PECOC - http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=pecoc

Lol you silly British and your cool Acronyms.

PECOC= Peacock ;)

I love you guys

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly it quite silly thing. Going back to time a when Armies were had gaudy uniforms so opposing sides could recognize whose troops were whose on smoky battle fields up to a point between 1860 to sometime after the start of the World War I and trench warfare on the western front.

Even then once a base uniform had been established, it has been acknowledge that no matter how it may fill the needs of most day to day operations, that members with different MOS and in different theaters of operation will have to be issued other kit. Also the gucci add on equipment that some units may allow their troops to add to.

I am not to sure on this one best pattern that fits everywhere and I do understand the one desire to make uniformity seem true, but before the current operation in Middle East by the US and British especially. I remember watching video of units from the states and European bases, that were in the field mixing the woodland camo with various states of desert camo, due to the fact there weren't enough of any desert pattern to go around in the US inventories. Or the fact that most of the TA-50 gear they had was still olive drab green. I do remember that the Molle system that the US Army had been testing as far back as 1985, but due to the amount of TA-50 gear in war-time stocks, it wasn't until well in the 1990s and some cases still in 2000 and 2001 before some units had switch to the new system.

REMF and the Quartermaster/Supply units seem to think they should have the best of the best gear above other who might actually have need of the equipment. In fact, there some Quartermaster/Supply Officer/Sergeants who felt, since it was their responsibility for accountability the best way to exercise this was to sit on the gear.

As for the personal purchase of gear. While in the 82nd, being issued that was barely serviceable, but look good, many of us went out purchase as much what we could that the various outlet surplus stores. In many case, the purchased items include butt pack that you weren't issued due to the fact that didn't have any left to issue from central supply on base, or extra set so one could be kept for display and the other was field gear.

Then you look at the British system back then, it seem every Regiment of the Army had some twist they added to the basic uniform, whether if it for functionality purposes or for like in the Para and SAS where they had special smock help distinguish them in barracks and everyone to have one or the other for when they went to the field. In most military Tankers and Aviation seem to have overall/flight suits to some extent.

I so agree that with the way the British attitude is order the stuff in batches to add small improvement into the gear as units rotate in. That way if something doesn't work, in one or two rotation the issues can be corrected. It also take the control from the Supply people who seem to think that silly Infantry personnel don't need what is being entrusted to them to get to them.

Honestly, there will never be one best outfit that fit all. Take Iraq and Afghanistan. What works in Iraq may not work well Afghanistan and vice versa. Form what I hear even something that works well in on portion of the either country doesn't really work to well in other parts. Well doh, the old woodland pattern in the US inventory worked very well at some bases in the US, Korea, and Europe and other place you stuck out like sore thumb no matter how much you work you camo outpost...

[perardua]

We still have storemen who think that "stores are for storing" and are extremely difficult to get things out of. On the other hand, most that I have encountered have been very good with regards to supplying things. The stacker at my unit was particularly helpful, if you found something you thought would be useful and you could find the NSN for it, he'd have a go at ordering it in (cue mini-Maglites, Leathermans and the handy folding medical pouch for all). He was something of a master at creative accounting though.

As for universal camouflage, certainly one of the problems British troops in Helmand are facing is that an individual patrol will likely pass through areas which require both kinds of camouflage, DPM and desert, several times, hence the attempted introduction of a camouflage pattern that is suitable for both environments, though DPM and desert clothing is also still issued (and frequently worn mixed to try and deal with the problem).

And yes, Britain did invade Iraq with shortages of desert clothing, body armour, boots, batteries, ammunition, NBC kit, and various other handy things. The resulting deaths are probably why we seem to be paying so much attention to kitting these days.

EDIT: Another proposal from the PECOC programme is to retain brand names on equipment, because most soldiers know what kind of quality they can expect from a particular brand, and also it gives the manufacturer more incentive to produce high quality equipment, as everyone will know exactly who made an item.

[headquarters]

I see you guys discuss patterns - but what about materials ?

Most armies issue some sort of trilaminate "plastic" all weather kit to their troops as well as some sort of poly-cotton garments.

It is a well known fact that the one has better water resistance and the other has breathability and durability .

Any thoughts ?

I am undecided my self -both have their uses -but the goretex one shreds essily when doing drills and staying low on the advance..

[perardua]

Wearing Gore-Tex in the British forces, at least amongst combat types, is regarded somewhat unfavourably, unless you're doing something non-tactical like a range. There are two main reasons for this - one being that it rustles (not really an issue in my opinion, if it's raining hard enough to wear Gore-Tex, you're not going to be heard too easily), and the second being that it is gets you hot quickly, especially as the normal recommendation is to wear it under your combats to cut down on 'noise' and to maintain access to all the kit in your smock and trouser pockets.

Personally, I don't tend to wear waterproofs on exercise or ops (mainly because it never rained when I was there) except sometimes on stag, as invariably by the time you've stopped to get it out and put it all on, the rain has stopped. That, and when you inevitably get bumped by the opfor and start throwing yourself at the ground, crawling about and using streams as cover, you get soaked anyway. Anyway, skin's pretty waterproof and CS95s dry quickly enough. Best confined to base use, in my opinion.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've personally never liked, and still don't like, rain gear. This goes from when I was a kid and we had those stupid yellow rubber raincoats (which somehow, by the end of the day, I would have "lost somewhere" -- my mother quickly stopped buying them for me), to the Army and today -- I don't even use an umbrella.

However, when it was rainy in the Army in the field, I always bought my own socks that were water repellent to an extent, and I always bought my own boots that, while they looked like regular issue boots, were also more weatherproof. I could be soaked all over, but when my feet got wet and soaked inside by footwear, I was miserable.

[perardua]

Well, boots are an entirely different matter, and the most important thing for an infantryman. We recently started getting issued Gore-Tex lined boots that are a lot more waterproof than the older issue ones, but the issue coincided with a week of live firing in knee deep snow, which generally meant falling in concealed streams a lot and having your boots fill with water. Turns out Gore-Tex boots take forever to dry, so by the second or third day most of us were back to leather boots and leaving a bag of dry socks by the range hut.

[Abbott Shaull]

LOL... Yeah I hear there Paul. I think, may of the Airborne Infantry types are the same. In the end you are going to get wet anyways in the field. Even with the poncho and liner the best use for it was for use at night for sleeping under the poncho and using the liner over the sleep bag unless it was like in mid winter, the the sleep bag was brought out due to you never knew when it may snow out in the field at Bragg...lol

[waiting4something]

Coolest? My vote would be the Vietnam-Era Tiger pattern. Not the best pattern, but it does look cool.

Best? As much as it pains my Army soul to say so, I think its the US Marine digital camo. (Yes, I know they stole the idea from the Canadians, but they improved it.) The Army ACUs -- I simply don't believe in "One camo pattern fits all."

Everything he said. I also thought that "sky camo" the urban camo with blue in it looked cool. Very Nintendo Contra looking. I don't think anyone ever used it of course.:D I see the Russians use blue in one of there camo patterns(Gorod). Personally I think Blue stands out to much, but it does look cool.

[natehale1971]

Has anyone seen the new Chinese Digital Camo?

[pmulcahy11b]

Has anyone seen the new Chinese Digital Camo?

I may be wrong, but blue camo can't provide much camouflage.

[dragoon500ly]

Hmmmm, the government doing something in an intelligent, rational manner...

NOPE!

That will never happen!!!!

:p

[HorseSoldier]

I may be wrong, but blue camo can't provide much camouflage.

It looks to me like they assumed we must have known something they did not understand with out ACU pattern, so they copied us with similarly dismal results.

[Targan]

Has anyone seen the new Chinese Digital Camo?

Digital camo? Does that mean it has pictures of fingers all over it? :D

[pmulcahy11b]

Digital camo? Does that mean it has pictures of fingers all over it? :D

Of course not! It has numbers, and they count down to the time of your death!

[kota1342000]

My vote is for the woodland pattern with a qualifier; the ripstop BDUs, not the cotton ones. When the cotton fades you stick out like a turd in a punchbowl.

[Snake Eyes]

I voted "other" but can't remember why. It was probably for something unconventional like tiger stripe. I had a pair of awesome nylon/cotton ripstop BDU type pants I got from USCAV back in the late 80's or early 90's that were in a disrupted dark grid pattern called something like French Night Desert, but I can't find any evidence that such a thing ever existed. Closest I can find online is those shitty US Army Gulf War I anti-NVG "overwhites" that didn't actually work, but these were actually cut like regular BDU trousers. They kicked ass. But as far as a pattern actually expected to be encountered in the timeline, I'd probably go with the German Flecktarn.

[helbent4]

I owned some pre-CADPAT green Canadian Forces combat fatigue pants (aka "combats") made from cotton. They were the most comfortable thing I owned and everyone I talked to in the CF (Reg Force or Militia) loved them too because they were extremely soft and comfortable. Much more so the rip-stop US BDUs, but that was the problem, they weren't nearly as durable and eventually came apart. (I hear they needed to be repaired/replaced after every other exercise, almost.) Still, while they lasted, they were as comfortable as pyjamas, and they didn't even fade too badly over time (they looked a lot like Israeli fatigues except a little more green).

I hear the CADPAT combats are much more durable but less comfortable. I also have a nylon camouflage Canadian Airborne smock somewhere, with a unique pattern somewhat like British DPM but lighter with less brown. It was a neat pattern, issued to airborne commandos because the CF combats before CADPAT were not camouflaged.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Fading was a sought after quality in our Auscams as firstly it was a sign of experience (and who wants to look like a newbie) and secondly it meant they matched the predominately drought conditions we usually operated in - bright new colours tended to stick out more when the trees, bushes and grass were all parched.

[HorseSoldier]

I had a similar attitude towards woodland BDUs back in the day -- new, they stood out really badly in fields, scrub, autumn foliage colors and such. Some fading made them work a lot better, and I developed the theory that when senior NCOs started getting very negative in garrison they were just about ideal for field use.

[pmulcahy11b]

That's part of why you had field BDUs and garrison BDUs.

[natehale1971]

There was a Swiss camo pattern that had a lot of red in it, an looked a little like flames or long grass with black and other colors interwoven... I've been looking for a picture of it for years... i used it as the camo pattern for body armor in a 2300ad game after i had saw it in a US Cavalry catalog when i was in the navy (1989-1994).

[dragoon500ly]

Well, saw a strange camo outfit in, of all the werid places, the local mall. I must admit, pink, black and white was a rather odd combo, but she looked good in it!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There was a Swiss camo pattern that had a lot of red in it, an looked a little like flames or long grass with black and other colors interwoven... I've been looking for a picture of it for years... i used it as the camo pattern for body armor in a 2300ad game after i had saw it in a US Cavalry catalog when i was in the navy (1989-1994).

This one?
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/image/swissalpenflage.jpg
Commonly called Alpenflage or Leibermuster by collectors, proper name appears to be Kampfanzug 57 or Tarnanzug 83 (TAZ 83)
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/english.htm
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00014.php

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, saw a strange camo outfit in, of all the werid places, the local mall. I must admit, pink, black and white was a rather odd combo, but she looked good in it!

It allows her to blend into the background when she's shoplifting.

[natehale1971]

This one?
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/image/swissalpenflage.jpg
Commonly called Alpenflage or Leibermuster by collectors, proper name appears to be Kampfanzug 57 or Tarnanzug 83 (TAZ 83)
http://www2.ttcn.ne.jp/camouflage/english.htm
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00014.php

Unfortunately, that's not the one I've been looking for. I remembered it was actually called Industrial Camouflage. The Swiss Cammies are great, i love those...

I wish i could find the old artwork i had done with the body armor done in the patterns that I was wanting to get a really good example of it. The colors were red, black, blue-gray, light gray. It was suppose to be used by snipers in industrial areas i think.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Unfortunately, that's not the one I've been looking for. I remembered it was actually called Industrial Camouflage. The Swiss Cammies are great, i love those...

I wish i could find the old artwork i had done with the body armor done in the patterns that I was wanting to get a really good example of it. The colors were red, black, blue-gray, light gray. It was suppose to be used by snipers in industrial areas i think.

Hmmm, you're not making this easy are you!
Given the colours you mentioned, the nearest I can find is this one but it's nothing more than the BDU type pattern done by some US civilian company
http://www.specopstactical.com/shop/catalog/images/store/Rothco/7915.jpg
Or this one, a Russian design made for their Ministry of Extraordinary Situations (i.e. Emercom - civil defence/emergency response organization)
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/New-Images/mchsklmk.jpg

I can't find any references on the net to an urban/industrial sniper cam with red colours :(

[natehale1971]

Believe me, I know. :(

I've been looking for the pattern for years now. I even asked US Cavalry if they had the swatch patch pictures still, and they didn't have them. :(

Thus I have been tearing through all my old artwork looking for the original drawings to try and find the pictures of the pattern so i can use that, but so far no luck in finding them. it's been a real pain...

[bobcat]

Of course not! It has numbers, and they count down to the time of your death!

why do my fatigues have a 00:01 on them?

[Panther Al]

I picked flecktarn for a number of reasons but they all boil down to personal preferance.

But in all honesty I have to say "other" was my true choice: dark khaki. Call me old school but I feel that for the most part camo isn't needed save for troops in special roles. I've seen many a trooper use camo as a crutch to excuse poor field skills and by and large the various patterns seem to foster an idea that you don't have to try as hard to stay hidden. Dark Khaki (or Flat Dark Earth as the "operator types" (and that's another rant) call it) is a true multi environment colour, it blends well in the desert as well as the green sorts of places. Besides proper design of the uniform itself can lend to one that works well in the field and looks sharper than hell in garrison.

[Lerk]

No mention of the East German Strichtarn?

[pmulcahy11b]

But in all honesty I have to say "other" was my true choice: dark khaki. Call me old school but I feel that for the most part camo isn't needed save for troops in special roles.

I've heard it said that the perfect camouflage pattern is perfect only only until you move.

[Targan]

I've heard it said that the perfect camouflage pattern is perfect only only until you move.

Very true. I remember my instructors telling us over and over again during basic that "movement attracts the eye".

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Very true. I remember my instructors telling us over and over again during basic that "movement attracts the eye".

What the hell was that little phrase they taught in regards to personal cam, something like 'the 5 S's and the M" or something like that but I can't remember all the S words (Shape, Shine, Silhouette, Sound, ? and Movement).
Was it even 5 or just those 4? I can't remember. Was it Size perhaps?
Targan, Legbreaker, help me out here! :p

[TiggerCCW UK]

Assuming it was the same as here in the UK it was;

Shape
Shine
Shadow
Silhouette
Spacing

Movement

Aircraft

Thats the way we were taught anyway.

[Panther Al]

On the subject of "perfect" camo patterns,
Seems that with all the money and time spent by the US Army to bring us the ACU universal good everywhere pattern seems to have not worked out so well.

While they are keeping the uniform style, the army is beginning to issue a new pattern to troops going to Afghanistan- Multicam. So much for only having to keep track of one kind of bdu (at one time I had three woodland styles- fireproof, ripstop, and temperate (my personal fav), choco-chip, and desert 3 colour, which to be fair, was just nuts as we was supposed to have 4 each according to our regimental commander).

[dragoon500ly]

Went to the local mall and looked to make sure that the local hiphop shop was still selling its Pink, White and Grey BDUs. Now then, there are those out there in the forum who are wondering why I even bring up this...but I feel that we are overlooking a critical need for today's military, namely the ability to blend in to the urban club scene and to inflict massive damage on hiphop terrorists!!!

:p

[Abbott Shaull]

Went to the local mall and looked to make sure that the local hiphop shop was still selling its Pink, White and Grey BDUs. Now then, there are those out there in the forum who are wondering why I even bring up this...but I feel that we are overlooking a critical need for today's military, namely the ability to blend in to the urban club scene and to inflict massive damage on hiphop terrorists!!!

:p

ROTFLMAO.... In all seriousness the it may just work in some neighborhoods...lol

[Abbott Shaull]

On the subject of "perfect" camo patterns,
Seems that with all the money and time spent by the US Army to bring us the ACU universal good everywhere pattern seems to have not worked out so well.

While they are keeping the uniform style, the army is beginning to issue a new pattern to troops going to Afghanistan- Multicam. So much for only having to keep track of one kind of bdu (at one time I had three woodland styles- fireproof, ripstop, and temperate (my personal fav), choco-chip, and desert 3 colour, which to be fair, was just nuts as we was supposed to have 4 each according to our regimental commander).

Ripstop-lol. They were nice if you needed a uniform to starch and if you wore out in the field and they rip, it would rip along the seem for a lot further than normally would.

It seemed like every time we went to the field in the Summer someone would get chew for wearing temperate ones out the field for wear the heavy uniform when he should have set of the light ripstop to wear.

4 sets of each huh. That amusing since at during Basic Training we were issued 2 sets of temperate and 2 set of ripstop woodland. The only time we seen desert camo which came in choco-chip then was about a week before we deployed overseas...lol

[Abbott Shaull]

I picked flecktarn for a number of reasons but they all boil down to personal preferance.

But in all honesty I have to say "other" was my true choice: dark khaki. Call me old school but I feel that for the most part camo isn't needed save for troops in special roles. I've seen many a trooper use camo as a crutch to excuse poor field skills and by and large the various patterns seem to foster an idea that you don't have to try as hard to stay hidden. Dark Khaki (or Flat Dark Earth as the "operator types" (and that's another rant) call it) is a true multi environment colour, it blends well in the desert as well as the green sorts of places. Besides proper design of the uniform itself can lend to one that works well in the field and looks sharper than hell in garrison.

It seems Khaki in various shades and the various shade of olive-green worked for long time for the normal troops...

We are forgetting the next most commonly used color of basic Black that some many "operator types" like to say they use too... *Shrug*

[Abbott Shaull]

My vote is for the woodland pattern with a qualifier; the ripstop BDUs, not the cotton ones. When the cotton fades you stick out like a turd in a punchbowl.

Okay granted the cotton would fade, but they lasted a lot longer. Many time a trooper would keep them just to wear while out in the field. They didn't rip out so easily...

[Panther Al]

Ripstop-lol. They were nice if you needed a uniform to starch and if you wore out in the field and they rip, it would rip along the seem for a lot further than normally would.

It seemed like every time we went to the field in the Summer someone would get chew for wearing temperate ones out the field for wear the heavy uniform when he should have set of the light ripstop to wear.

4 sets of each huh. That amusing since at during Basic Training we were issued 2 sets of temperate and 2 set of ripstop woodland. The only time we seen desert camo which came in choco-chip then was about a week before we deployed overseas...lol

Yeah, this was from the regimental commander that wound up relieved due to poor command climate. But to be fair, I couldn't bitch: I was one of those who had to have sharp uniforms, 2 sets of the pricey A's, dress blues and whites. Never did get mess, but I did think long and hard about it.

[dragoon500ly]

Yeah, this was from the regimental commander that wound up relieved due to poor command climate. But to be fair, I couldn't bitch: I was one of those who had to have sharp uniforms, 2 sets of the pricey A's, dress blues and whites. Never did get mess, but I did think long and hard about it.

Lucky you (I think)!

One set of dress blues and the only mess dress ever seen was when our squadron commander showed up in a set for a squadron dinner. I guess he could be excused, he had just finished two years in the Pentagon; even more surprisingly, he was a damned fine light colonel...didn't play the usual games, which is probably why he was exilied to the border cav!

[pmulcahy11b]

LTC Shimmick, our PMS in ROTC, had mess dress. Looked sharp, but I kept thinkng, "One little drop..."

[Panther Al]

I think the only thing that stopped me from getting mess dress was the talk at the time of a new uniform, balking at the price of having one made for me - I didn't get dress, and one of my "A's" from clothing supply, no not me...- and finally I think it was a little wrong for a staff sergeant having a set of mess dress for honestly, no real reason. Yes, Lowell was my role model. ;)

[pmulcahy11b]

I never even got dress blues, and didn't need them. I had two tailored sets of class As, though -- my shape didn't change the whole time I was in the Army, except in Basic.

[dragoon500ly]

I never even got dress blues, and didn't need them. I had two tailored sets of class As, though -- my shape didn't change the whole time I was in the Army, except in Basic.

Guess it was the thang with the ACRs...Squadron Mess Night, Regimental Mess Night, Change of Command Night...blues or your best set of Class As and there was no shirking, unless you were on duty.

One of the things that always impressed me was the strong sense of tradition that the ACRs kept. You might see photos of the chain of command in a armor battalion, but the ACRs also had photos of every regimental commanding officer...you also heard the colonel being refered to as the 32nd, 33rd or 34th Colonel of the Regiment. Squadron headquarters with its Wall of Honor, listing every battle that the regiment took part in. The names of all of the winners of the Medal of Honor. The regimental birthday. Right on down to the honorable post of Squadron and Regimental Bugler...and when we had a Bierfest with the local German unit, we used to have fun blowing all of the old calls....

The old regiments had a proud sense of tradition, guess that is what brought out the best in us, knowing that the old 2nd Dragoons were looking on...

[Panther Al]

It was the same with the third, a lot of history there that the regiment was very big on. And you ease of life in the regiment was much better the more you knew, probably that's one of the reasons I wound up in good positions, well, that and how I gamed the recruiters to get max bonus, the exact MOS, the exact secondary training, and a pinpoint troop assignment before I would sign up. Evidently the troop heard about it while I was in basic and the word got around. Pretty intimidating to a brand new private showing up to post and hearing, "Oh. You're they guy we was told to look out for. Hang on while I call your sergeant major."

[pmulcahy11b]

Guess it was the thang with the ACRs...Squadron Mess Night, Regimental Mess Night, Change of Command Night...blues or your best set of Class As and there was no shirking, unless you were on duty.

Sounds like a bunch of garritroopers:p

[Panther Al]

Sounds like a bunch of garritroopers:p

Say it with a smile partner... ;)

How's jump school work? Week one separate the men from the boys, week two the men from the fools, and on the third the fools jump?

We, on the other hand, have along and honoured tradition of being a higher class of professional soldiers. ;)

[Raellus]

Haven't seen this thread in a while. I know it's not in the original T2K timeline (or v2.2, for that matter), but I really like the Multicam-derivative kits that the U.S. and British armies are transitioning to. It looks really sharp and it seems effective in a variety of different environments.

[Tegyrius]

I had to check back through the thread... surprisingly, no one's left this here yet:

http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

As far as patterns not available in the original timeline, I have to give the nod to the Kryptek family (http://www.kryptek.com/kryptek-camo-patterns/).

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm sure I have visited that site in the past!
It is a little surprising that it wasn't posted before but thanks Tegyrius for adding it here, I can see I'll be spending a lot of time on a particular site in the next few days...

[.45cultist]

I like the current Aussie camo. It kind of looks like the leopard spot camo that some U.S. Marine Corps (and SEAL and GB) units wore in the '40s-early '60s, but much more subtle (and, I should imagine, more effective).

I didn't include it in the poll since you probably wouldn't see it in the ETO and I had to set a limit somewhere- otherwise, there'd be dozens of poll choices.

Called the "Duck Hunter", as it was sold post war to said hunters, it was designed by a horticulturalist.

[LT. Ox]

But where is the "tiger stripe"?:rolleyes:
er and yes I did have some.

[.45cultist]

But where is the "tiger stripe"?:rolleyes:
er and yes I did have some.

Tiger Stripe with the lighter green is good with brush and young leafy trees, the darker stuff is good around cedar. I like the older two early woodland stuff depending on the area. Found out from Viet era friends Woodland had three generations of patterns.

[Rockwolf66]

Ive found a Youtube channel that demonstrates various camouflage patterns It's actually rather interesting how well or badly some of the patterns work.


Camouflage videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/Brent0331/videos)

[unkated]

Remember, you asked fro coolest, not what we thought was the most effective...

Polish Black Morro; I'll take a medium weight jacket of that any time...

Polish Puma isn't bad either, but it would be better on a leather jacket... (IMHO).

US 1970s Tiger Stripe patters, too.

(And I am very happy that the link to the Campopedia was repeated.)

Uncle Ted

[B.T.]

Coolest? My vote would be the Vietnam-Era Tiger pattern. Not the best pattern, but it does look cool.

..."

Kryptek and Multicam are cool, too, as Tyg and Raellus mentioned. Problem: Not available in the original or even the 2.n timeline.

My choice was not mentioned in the poll. It would be the Italian M1929 telo mimetico. First version fielded in 1929, still in use with certain units in the early 90ies.

Does it work? Hm, not shure. It's been in the field for such a long time, it has to have something. And: You can see a coverall in this scheme in the beginning scenes in the first (pilot-) show of Firefly. If it is still around 500 years in the future, it certainly has to be cool :cool:

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So I'm not unhappy to be revisiting this thread and as an Aussie I'm going to wave the flag for the first piece of camo gear officially issued to Australian forces in the Cold War era - the Smock, Tropical.
Aside from using the same material on the hootchie holder **, there were no other items of camo clothing officially issued to Australian forces (the SASR were allowed to get cam but they're special so I'm not including them).

** For those of you not familiar with US & Australian military slang, the word Hootchie refers to a groundsheet that can be used as a single person tent or when clipped to another such groundsheet can form a larger tent. Hootchie is I believe, derived from the American term "Hootch" AKA "Hooch" meaning a hut or simple/crude dwelling and used during the Vietnam War to describe the places soldiers in the field had to live in (the term may have even been used by US troops in the Korean War but I'm unsure of that).
So to get to the point, the Hootchie Holder is just a simple bag that clips onto your web gear to carry your groundsheet.

You can see an example of the pattern here, courtesy of Camopedia http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Australia

http://camopedia.org/images/6/61/Australia1.jpg

HOWEVER...
Despite what Camopedia says, this rain smock was never designated the "psychological smock", it was the "Smock, Tropical". But Aussies troops being like their counterparts in allied armies, soon came up with a different name for it based on the fact that it was the only item of issued clothing that was camouflaged but it wasn't for general use as it was only for tropical regions.
They mockingly nicknamed it the "Smock, Psychological" because they figured the cam pattern wasn't actually useful unless you were in jungle terrain, anywhere else in Australia it didn't really do anything to hide you, so any perceived benefit of wearing it was all in your head, i.e. psychological.

There were no other items of clothing officially issued in a cam pattern but I am not 100% certain that a rainproof cap in the same cam pattern was not issued. I've never seen one or even photos of one and I don't recall anyone ever talking about them. If there were some floating about, they may have actually been soldier made rather than official issue.
A number of soldiers did modify the tropical smock into other garments - one corporal I knew had a rifle bag made out of the material and I also personally saw a tropical smock that had been cut down and tailored to look more like the US BDU smock.

I vaguely recall in another life that I emailed Camopedia to update the info about the Smock, Tropical but I could be confusing it with another site, it was about 7 or 8 years ago or so.
But anyway, while I don't contend that the Australia tropical smock camo was particularly "cool", it's a nearly forgotten piece of Aussie military gear and an example of Aussie military humour so I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Raellus]

It's not used very much these days, but back in the 1990's, here in the States, "hoochie" was a commonly-used slang term for a woman of loose morals.

Also, saw this a couple of weeks ago. Old meets new. It's a cool-looking combo, IMHO.

http://soldiersystems.net/2019/09/02/5th-group-goes-retro-during-training-exercise/

-

[Legbreaker]

Aside from using the same material on the hootchie holder **, there were no other items of camo clothing officially issued to Australian forces (the SASR were allowed to get cam but they're special so I'm not including them).

Hmm, I was issued one of those in 91. Never bothered actually using it though.
There's also at least one other item using that pattern - a two litre water bladder carrier which I still have!
Pattern's a bit worn, but I don't think that actually detracts from it's effectiveness (if any). Has a an attached shoulder strap as well (which I've taped up out of the way) as well as a belt loop. Printed on the inside is the year of manufacture (1972), a serial number and manufacturer (Cantas Pty Ltd). Damn thing's as old as I am, if not older by a few months!

4366 4367

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ha! I remember the collapsible water bladder now that you mention it! The ones we had in my last unit were straight olive drab but seeing those photos sparks some dim memory in the decaying corners of my mind!
Come to think of it, half the hootchie carriers I saw were olive drab as well.
The material used for those hootchie carriers was utter crap and I'm pretty sure most infantry guys didn't bother carrying it, just one more item of dead weight.

But yeah, as for camo clothing, Australian troops basically had sweet FA until the DPCU was issued and it's ironic that before then, the only items of equipment that did get any sort of cam where small bits of kit that were not common use items.


But as for Cold War era cam uniforms, there's quite a few patterns I like but in terms of coolest, for me I'd choose the 1970s South African Police camo, examples of which can be found in it's various incarnations on Camopedia, here, the last quarter of the page.
http://www.camopedia.org/index.php?title=South_Africa

Generally, it looked like this (again, courtesy of Camopedia)
http://www.camopedia.org/images/thumb/4/46/Sap2.jpg/200px-Sap2.jpg

or this
http://www.camopedia.org/images/thumb/1/15/Sap8.jpg/200px-Sap8.jpg

[wolffhound79]

marine corp desert Marpat

[Adm.Lee]

Huh, never noticed this poll before. USMC digicam was , but I think I have to go with Vietnam-era tiger stripes. In 1985, about, I was super-proud of myself for being able to paint one of my metal figures that way.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well there's nothing stopping you from liking any of the newer cam patterns because the poll is specifically about the "coolest" cam uniforms available during the Twilight War time period (so some of the answers here are out of context of the poll).
Personally, I really like the 1990s South African army cam pattern and the 1990s Polish urban cam pattern as used by their national police as well as the woodlands and urban patterns used by the Polish internal security agency but of all those even though they're all from the 1990s, only the South African pattern is likely to have been available during the Twilight War.

[Raellus]

I managed to pick up a couple complete sets of the Danish and Polish camos (including in Goretex) and have been spotted pimping both around town from time to time!

I really like both. Like, enough to change my poll answer.

[wolffhound79]

My brother and I were joking about the 90s and the fashion. I found an old loot table I made for NY. One of the popular items I had was sports cloths. If anyone remembers the parachute pants in NFL team colors in a camo tiger stripe pattern. LOL What were they thinking then lol.

[Legbreaker]

https://media.giphy.com/media/kgKrO1A3JbWTK/giphy.gif

[Raellus]

I probably included the wrong Polish camo in the poll. "Pantera" was adopted in 1993, after the fall of the Communist Bloc and six years before Poland joined NATO. It may or may not have existed in the T2kU, depending on the timeline and personal preference. I should have included wz89 "Puma" (aka Żaba or "frog") pattern instead. It was adopted about a year before the fall of the Berlin Wall. If the Cold War hadn't ended, it probably wouldn't have been replaced as quickly as it was IRL.

Anyway, I can't decide whether "Puma" looks cool or not. These photos don't help (one makes it look pretty badass, the other kind of lame- I'll let you decide which). What do you think about Puma? Cool or not?

[ToughOmbres]

IIRC, the U.S. produced a night-time desert camo suit overlaid with a grid pattern. I can't remember the name for this uni. Supposedly, the grid pattern made the suit harder to pick out by NODs. Haven't seen the suits since the late '80s and early '90s so...

Does this mean they didn't work as advertised? Or what?

I remember those very well but they did not appear often and disappeared relatively quickly-I got the impression it wasn't Supply/QM "Keep the Best and issue the rest" either.

[ToughOmbres]

I really like both. Like, enough to change my poll answer.


The Danish pattern is/was extremely cool and applicable especially for their area of operations.

[ToughOmbres]

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

[Higgipedia]

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

It would be YEARS for the Army to catch up Desert Camouflage Uniform pattern accessories (body armor, MOPP suits, etc) with the DCUs worn in Iraq/Afghanistan. I deployed twice with woodland body armor and didn't get my first desert-friendly set until 2005, and that was probably because I was deployed with JSOC. Then it was a couple years of DCU accessories matched with the ACU grey digital pattern and by the time the ACU accessories caught up, they had switched to the Multicams. And that was just in the nine years I was in.

My understanding is that Flecktarn was in use from the late 80s on in a couple of different militaries. I think it'd be pretty reasonable for any units extant at the start of the war to be all uniform with the... uniforms. Mid-to-late war replacements would maybe not have as much, and by 2000, I doubt very many soldiers are 100% matching.

[Raellus]

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

That's a good question. The issue is even further complicated if one uses the v1.0 timeline. The Bundeswehr would be absorbing a bunch of former DDR troops (whilst other East German military forces will be fighting against the West Germans/NATO). That means that the Bundeswehr is not only going to have to kit out its own, rapidly expanding organic forces (regular army, territorial, mobilized reserves, etc.), it's going to have to kit out tens, maybe hundreds of thousands former DDR troops as well. Will the Bundeswehr try to outfit them in Bundeswehr fatigues, or allow them to continue to wear their DDR uniforms?

In my T2kU, Bundeswehr regulars wear Flecktarn. Reservists and conscripts mostly wear the old, 1957 pattern Olivfarben (Olive green) combat unis. I think the Bundeswehr would try to kit out former DDR troops in either of those uniforms ASAP, but some might have to retain their DDR kit longer until manufacturing supply catches up to demand. That's going to create IFF issues between Unionist and Loyalist German forces. It's also interesting to note that both Polish and Czech forces used their own version of the East German "Raindrop" pattern camo.

The attached photo shows troops from some former Soviet republic kitted out in East German combat fatigues. It's pretty T2k, IMHO.

[Homer]

I think the Belgian Jigsaw pattern just looks cool, and it’s was issued during the period. That said, it seems a little bright for actual hiding use. I’d have to go with a somewhat faded set of US woodlands in which seemed to work a little better after a few FTXs when they had toned down. Outside of Korea and some schools I don’t recall wearing the heavyweight BDUs much, but spent a lot of time in the cotton and 50/50 ripstop hot weather BDUs.

For field wear during most of the year the cotton ones were awesome since they dried very quickly and kept you as cool as possible. On the downside, they wore out quickly (my cuffs had a habit of coming off!), were almost impossible for garrison wear since they wrinkled so easily, and faded (cook whites) quickly. A set I wore during back-to-back NTC rotations faded into a really subdued color that almost worked in the desert but was good for nothing but DX back home. The rip-stops were a little hotter, but lasted longer and were truly four season (in the south).

Favorite uniform ever is a close contest between the Vietnam-era OG107 jungle fatigues worn at JRTC and the rip-stop coffee stain deserts. Both were exceptionally comfortable, and fairly effective as long as you did your part by staying still, etc. FWIW, my OG’s seemed to get more effective the longer I wore them, as they picked up grass and mud stains which broke up the overall green effect. Some guys in the recon plt were allowed to experiment with spray painting their 107s to achieve a disruptive effect as well.

One item I’ve noticed in coverage of the fighting in Ukraine that would likely come into wide use in T2K would be the adoption of some form of tactical recognition sign or symbol, whether it’s a colored arm or helmet band, a contrasting shape, etc. Since uniformity may have long ago fallen by the wayside, and it’s possible to have mixed nationalities, such a system provides a quick and easy method of IFF no matter what “uniform” or kit is being worn. A part of daily security measures could be changing color or location of the sign.

To continue CastleBravo92’s analogy to the late Roman Era, the mobile elements of surviving units (aka “comitatenses”) may be uniformed and equipped in the best possible approximate of their pre-war national issue and appear similar to the group on the v1.0 box cover. Militia or static division base units (aka “limitanei”) may have a substitute standard, captured/civilian kit, or an admixture. Cold weather gear, etc. will likely be a mix of issue, captured, and civilian types. Both military clothing repair (SLCR) and cantonment civilians will be involved in the repair, repurposing, and manufacture of substitute standard clothing and equipment as resources permit. This includes the “harvest” of surplus friendly, civilian, and enemy clothing and kit wherever possible during battlefield cleanup.

[Ursus Maior]

By the time of the Twilight War had the Flecktarn completely been fielded in the Bundeswehr? I always imagined the Territorial Heer having a mix of camo until supplies ran out and remaining troops using their old moleskin grey/gray uniforms that were so ubiquitous well into the late 1980's. What say the group?

"Flecktarn B" the camouflage pattern actually ordered by the Bundeswehr was only introduced into active units by 1991. The Danis began using the same pattern, but less colors, from 1978 onwards, since all field tests as well as final choices had been made by 1976 by the Bundeswehr. However, the late 70s and early 80s were full of changes for the Bundeswehr and, while defense spending was enormous, money was still limited.

When the Cold War ended and Flecktarn was finally ordered, it was introduced (IIRC) brigade-wise. Thus, it took some time to roll out the big package of new uniforms to all members of the armed forces. Additionally, the 1990s Bundeswehr Heer (the land component) was a three tier force: First, there were the "Krisenreaktionskräfte" (KRK, crisis intervention forces), which had the best equipment and highest readiness. These forces went to the Balkans and thus got most of the screen time and pictures taken. Then there were the "Hauptverteidigungskräfte" (HVK; main defenseforces), which were active troops, but assigned the defense of Germany proper or NATO allies in a full scale war. These had lower readiness and generally older equipment or received upgrades later. My battalion in 2000 was HVK assigned and we still had G3 rifles well into 2001.

Finally, there was the Territorial Heer, which was much smaller after 1993 than during the Cold War, and only fielded light infantry forces: All heavy units - the tank battalions of the Heimatschutzbrigaden (home defense brigades) or even the tank destroyer platoons of the (dissolved) Heimatschutzregimenter (home defense regiments) had been dissolved already. Still, many new Heimatschutzbataillone (home defense batallions) existed and reservists assigned to them would have received the new uniforms at some point.

All in all, it was probably 1997 or 1998 until everyone got the new gear.

[Ursus Maior]

The attached photo shows troops from some former Soviet republic kitted out in East German combat fatigues. It's pretty T2k, IMHO.

Good points. Note that these soldiers don't wear GDR-NVA helmets, though, but some other helmet type. I presume, German Bundeswehr leadership would try to change fatigues as fast as possible, to reduce fratricide, if former NVA soldiers fight on both sides. The helmets would probably go first and soldiers be given the Bundeswehr M1 version. Minor items might be retained for some time and at some point the war just dictates everything.

[ToughOmbres]

I think the Belgian Jigsaw pattern just looks cool, and it’s was issued during the period. That said, it seems a little bright for actual hiding use. I’d have to go with a somewhat faded set of US woodlands in which seemed to work a little better after a few FTXs when they had toned down. Outside of Korea and some schools I don’t recall wearing the heavyweight BDUs much, but spent a lot of time in the cotton and 50/50 ripstop hot weather BDUs.

For field wear during most of the year the cotton ones were awesome since they dried very quickly and kept you as cool as possible. On the downside, they wore out quickly (my cuffs had a habit of coming off!), were almost impossible for garrison wear since they wrinkled so easily, and faded (cook whites) quickly. A set I wore during back-to-back NTC rotations faded into a really subdued color that almost worked in the desert but was good for nothing but DX back home. The rip-stops were a little hotter, but lasted longer and were truly four season (in the south).

Favorite uniform ever is a close contest between the Vietnam-era OG107 jungle fatigues worn at JRTC and the rip-stop coffee stain deserts. Both were exceptionally comfortable, and fairly effective as long as you did your part by staying still, etc. FWIW, my OG’s seemed to get more effective the longer I wore them, as they picked up grass and mud stains which broke up the overall green effect. Some guys in the recon plt were allowed to experiment with spray painting their 107s to achieve a disruptive effect as well.

One item I’ve noticed in coverage of the fighting in Ukraine that would likely come into wide use in T2K would be the adoption of some form of tactical recognition sign or symbol, whether it’s a colored arm or helmet band, a contrasting shape, etc. Since uniformity may have long ago fallen by the wayside, and it’s possible to have mixed nationalities, such a system provides a quick and easy method of IFF no matter what “uniform” or kit is being worn. A part of daily security measures could be changing color or location of the sign.

To continue CastleBravo92’s analogy to the late Roman Era, the mobile elements of surviving units (aka “comitatenses”) may be uniformed and equipped in the best possible approximate of their pre-war national issue and appear similar to the group on the v1.0 box cover. Militia or static division base units (aka “limitanei”) may have a substitute standard, captured/civilian kit, or an admixture. Cold weather gear, etc. will likely be a mix of issue, captured, and civilian types. Both military clothing repair (SLCR) and cantonment civilians will be involved in the repair, repurposing, and manufacture of substitute standard clothing and equipment as resources permit. This includes the “harvest” of surplus friendly, civilian, and enemy clothing and kit wherever possible during battlefield cleanup.

I like the Belgian jigsaw pattern as well-looks like it would be more practical in an equatorial environment such as Congo rather than Northern Europe.

Someone gave me a blouse/shirt and pants in that pattern in the 1980's-never saw more repairs on a garment. European nations were/are much more thrifty than the US Army apparently. Cammies in this condition in the US Army would have been DX'ed a looong time ago. Doubt even DRMO would be able to do anything with them. That said they were really neat!

[ToughOmbres]

That's a good question. The issue is even further complicated if one uses the v1.0 timeline. The Bundeswehr would be absorbing a bunch of former DDR troops (whilst other East German military forces will be fighting against the West Germans/NATO). That means that the Bundeswehr is not only going to have to kit out its own, rapidly expanding organic forces (regular army, territorial, mobilized reserves, etc.), it's going to have to kit out tens, maybe hundreds of thousands former DDR troops as well. Will the Bundeswehr try to outfit them in Bundeswehr fatigues, or allow them to continue to wear their DDR uniforms?

In my T2kU, Bundeswehr regulars wear Flecktarn. Reservists and conscripts mostly wear the old, 1957 pattern Olivfarben (Olive green) combat unis. I think the Bundeswehr would try to kit out former DDR troops in either of those uniforms ASAP, but some might have to retain their DDR kit longer until manufacturing supply catches up to demand. That's going to create IFF issues between Unionist and Loyalist German forces. It's also interesting to note that both Polish and Czech forces used their own version of the East German "Raindrop" pattern camo.

The attached photo shows troops from some former Soviet republic kitted out in East German combat fatigues. It's pretty T2k, IMHO.

Good point-hadn't even thought about the NVA. Given the huuuge stocks of NVA surplus that appeared post 1991 I wonder if the newly unified Germany wouldn't issue the rain pattern NVA until supplies were exhausted and give brassards or arm shields for sheer practicality?

Another option-The Bundeswehr would have top priority for the new Flecktarn pattern while passing the old moleskin gray/grau to NVA formations. Flecktarn smocks, Jackets and shirts/blouses would be issued to NVA formations as supplies became available so the NVA forces would resemble British Paras in World War 2-Camo Denison Smocks on top and green pants-if that makes sense.

[Raellus]

I think the Belgian Jigsaw pattern just looks cool, and it’s was issued during the period. That said, it seems a little bright for actual hiding use.

Agree on both counts. That Belgian camo wasn't even particularly effective in Belgium's former African colony.

Another option-The Bundeswehr would have top priority for the new Flecktarn pattern while passing the old moleskin gray/grau to NVA formations. Flecktarn smocks, Jackets and shirts/blouses would be issued to NVA formations as supplies became available so the NVA forces would resemble British Paras in World War 2-Camo Denison Smocks on top and green pants-if that makes sense.

That's a really great point. I can't believe I'd never given consideration to the stopgap measure of mixing-and-matching that early on in the war. The Wehrmacht were great practitioners of that during WW2, but I'd always seen the practice in T2k as an exigency type measure as the manufacturing of new kit ground to a near halt. Putting NVA troops in Flecktarn smocks would do a great deal to help with IFF.

Note that these soldiers don't wear GDR-NVA helmets, though, but some other helmet type. I presume, German Bundeswehr leadership would try to change fatigues as fast as possible, to reduce fratricide, if former NVA soldiers fight on both sides. The helmets would probably go first and soldiers be given the Bundeswehr M1 version. Minor items might be retained for some time and at some point the war just dictates everything.

Yeah, in my T2k head cannon, the two soldiers in the pic were wearing captured US K-Pots with NVA covers. I agree that the first item of NVA kit the Bundesewehr would replace is that hideous East German helmet. Its silhouette is super distinctive, and it doesn't offer much protection to the wearer. Issuing former NVA troops fighting in the Bundeswehr with M1960 (US pattern M1 helmets) would be a good start to improving battlefield IFF. A good number of M1960 helmets would be available, as the Bundeswehr had started replacing it (IRL) with a more effective model made of ballistic composts (the Gefechtshelm M92) in 1992. Combine M1960 helmets with TO's point, and the issue of differentiating between Pro-Unification and Loyalist NVA troops would be pretty much solved.

@All: What do you think about the use of Tiger Stripe patterns by T2k US forces in the CONUS? Back in the IRL 1990s, army surplus stores were filled with Tiger Stripe BDUs, boonie hats, etc- most of it was new production as opposed to true US Army surplus. I can see some State Guards adopting it. It might even be unofficially adopted by one of the two dueling gov't factions as an IFF measure. IRL, it's making a comeback of sorts with US Special Forces (i.e. Green Berets), as evidenced by these recent picks:

[Homer]

I’d figure that by fall of 1998 units in CONUS would be trying to put clothes on the backs and shoes on the feet of any new “draftees” or “volunteers” they took in and you’d probably see a hodgepodge of uniforms, from the OG507 “pickle suit” all the way up to the newest type of BDU. The prospect of safety, and basic needs (food, shelter, clothing) being met is likely a big draw once the Mexican invasion, government schism, and rise of NA put paid to initial attempts at recovery.

I’d imagine disciplined units would make some attempts at uniformity, by at least insisting on a common article of clothing for recognition; for example, one organization I worked with didn’t care what you wore as long as you had a pair of DCU pants or silkies on. Less disciplined units or militia may adopt an even more informal standard going with headgear, a marker, or a brassard (“Everbody on duty wears a calumet high football jersey.”). In inclement weather, I could see this breaking down completely if issue type cold/wet weather gear is not available; a friend of mine was part of a unit that ended up being committed 3 weeks on a 72 hour tasking- when the weather turned cold they bought civilian sweaters, etc. and integrated them as best they could into their current attire!

There’s a psychological benefit to being able to keep your troops in the prewar uniform, or at least a standardized uniform. When you move into a new area, a unit in well maintained prewar kit or even standardized older kit will give the impression of being well supplied and disciplined given the ragtag nature of most forces by 2000. This can go a long way towards quietening an area.