SOF in T2K

[Raellus]

What's your take on special operations forces in the Twilight world?

I tend to think that SOF warriors would be fairly rare in the later stages of the Twilight War. SOF types tend to draw the more dangerous missions and seem to suffer disproportionate casualties compared to line units. After three or four years of high intensity combat, one could argue that there would be very few true SOF left.

On the same tack, after the TDM, SOF training programs would probably suffer. Considering the historical antipathy towards SOF in the upper echelons of the conventional force structures of most armies, I could see the brass being reluctant to part with their "best" (this might be relative in after '97) men as the fresh recruit pool dwindles.

On the other hand, the nature of warfare after '97 (a non-continuous front, lower force-to-space ratios, cantonments, "raids", etc.) would seem to favor unconventional warfare and its practitioners.

As a GM, I usually allow folks to play SOF types, despite myself. I know that playing SOF types is rather alluring and I don't want to spoil anybody's fun. As a result, in my PbP campaign, the proportion of SOF to non hovers around 4 to 14, although at times during the campaigns three-year history, its been higher. This usually lends to a decent balance but the SOF types usually have more to work with, both skills and gear-wise. As a GM, I'm not sure how to address these imbalances fairly.

As a player, I've never played an SOF type. I usually prefer the "ordinary men in extraordinary circumstances" motif. Part of me, though, really wants to RP the highly skilled, professional warrior; the other part is weary of descending into munchkinism. Lately, I've gotten a hankering to try playing an "operator". ATM, I'd love to play a grizzled German KSK noncom, decked out in Flektarn and strapping an G8/HK21 with all the trimmings, a P21/USP pistol, and sweet dive/combat knife.

;)Special forces in the Twilight War are neither special nor particularly forceful. Discuss.

[cavtroop]

I think lots of small groups in T2k would be called SOF, but aren't 'true' SF (ie. Q course, etc.). Just small groups of infantry/scouts that work well together, that would be given missions that would traditionally go to 'true' SF units. Actual operators would be exceedingly rare I'd think, for the reasons you outlined - they'd all be dead/stranded/etc.

When I used to GM (I would now, but can't find players!), I let people be SF if they wanted. Generally though, I had good players that didn't abuse it. I'd make them come up with a real good story of how they got to where they were, etc. I never played an SF player - it's kind of like playing the game on 'easy mode' :)

[weswood]

I prefer to let players be the character they want to be. It's a game, played for fun. As long as the player can justify the character, I tend to let them run with it.

But I think in order to balance the game, they start out with minimal gear. Either they start out as having escaped from POW status, or they managed to lose the gear ( boat flipped over, whatever.)

[kato13]

Canon modules have Russian, Czech(IIRC) and US Special forces. I think strong unit cohesion and general survival knowledge will help these units survive better than most, somewhat countering their use on the more difficult missions.

[Webstral]

In addition to the proper SF types, there would be a need for lots of guys doing SF types of missions. Once again using my own work as a concrete example, in Thunder Empire the leadership identifies a very strong need for both LRS and small unit trainers to raise local militias and give them the training they need to make the most of whatever weapons they do have. (Knowledge goes both ways, by the way.) None of the soldiers who come to operate in these modes are properly trained SF.

In Poseidon's Rifles, my newest name for the USCG enclave on the northern New England coast, there is a need for LRS and for commando-style raiders to precede attacks on enemies throughout the area. The Marines who become part of First District pretty much run the training for both of these functions.

LRS pretty much defines the SF role among the Green Jackets (State of Vermont), the Granite Brigade (State of New Hampshire), the Black Watch (southern Vermont), the forces of Keene (also New Hampshire), and the 43rd Military Police Brigade in western MA. The infantry units, LRS or otherwise, are trained for raiding, but it would be hard to confuse them with properly-trained Special Forces.

In Silver Shogunate, the Shogun (Nevada) really doesn't have any SF. His special troops are more like SWAT or are members of his secret police.

I've been cooking up some nastiness for southern Idaho, which is under the control of New America [Howling Wilderness]. My working title for this is The Final Solution. As in other locations, LRS-style operators are about as close as they come to true SF.

Colorado is going to need scads of true SF to bring other sections of the US back into the fold. How they will manage to train and equip these soldiers is an open question.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

I don't see many people being sent back to US and by 2000 sent back to even the UK for training. I can see selected members of unit who have been through the training setting up 'mini-courses' to help train what may be needed locally.

Would you find them in the T2K settings, well there was Soviet unit operating in Southern Poland. I think they made it in the original modules and they returned again in the series of modules that were suppose to take place in 2001 a year later for those who didn't move on to catch the boat. Even in the Krakow and Warsaw Modules one of the unspoken things if they had the pleasure of meeting DIA/CIA agents in those areas would try to recruit the party to carry out such operation for them. There was small A-Team on Operation Reset that B troop of the 116th was suppose to support.

As for units of trained Green Berets, SAS, SBS, Seals, or your particular flavor of Special Operation unit would be hard press to be completely made of members who have been trained to pre-war standards. Even these units one of the things for NATO units is they train, train, and train more. I see Long Range Recon Patrols type Vietnam style Ranger companies being recruited and trained too at Corps and Division level where possible.

Also one of the issue with canon I have had was the fact that the all of the 75th Ranger Regiment was sent to the Middle East when in reality either the Battalion from Fort Stewart or Benning going there, the other one to Europe and Fort Lewis being deployed to Korea, with probably a couple Battalions in training. As well Special Forces Groups and Seal Teams in various stages of training in late 1997. Many of these units were kept home to help in the rebuilding process after the Thanksgiving 1997. Many of the not Ranger units could be put to good use in helping out. Yes, granted they aren't using their combat skills, but an A-Team or Seal Platoon could be put to good use in places where you don't have the means or population to send various support brigades.

From 1999 and 2000 there are regions of the Eastern Europe that are ripe for the type of missions that SF, Seals, and the SAS have trained for. In making partisan units behind enemy lines. I am sure there are Soviet groups doing the same thing in Eastern Germany. Also I am sure there would be various groups working in Southeastern Europe and Italy to work with pro-NATO partisans. Where as many of the units before 1999 were there to harass enemy and didn't do much force multiplier operations. Also the Polish Legions were suppose to be under the control of US SF groups too during the final Offensive that lead to the destruction to the 5th US Mechanized Division.

As for the playing the game in easy mode. No I find it the opposite to be true, especially if the GM limits it to one type in the group. Yes, this person has all of this training, but at the same time he has to prove to his 'new' team he knows what he doing, and then there is rank issue too. If Generals have trouble in accepting advice from a mere Sergeant, it not any easier trying to convince a Lt or Captain that their plan wouldn't work and your would work. Even in a Group without an Officer, and the Sergeant was the highest ranking person, he would still have convince the party to do things his way.

Remember many Officer and many Non-coms are fond of the Spec Warrior types. There are even some who have passed the various course aren't confident that they can do what others believe and shown they have been able to do. The thing is this type of character has to work to 'fit' in. For Lone Rangers won't last too long in the T2K world.

Abbott

[chico20854]

To reinforce one point Abbot brought out, there are really two roles people have in mind when discussing SOF in the Cold War/T2k context.

The first is the one made popular by the movies, and into which US Army Special Forces have slipped into post-Cold War, and many other militaries have their SOF execute - direct action, commando-type operations - basically raids against high value targets by highly trained, superior quality light infantrymen.

The second role, which had been largely downplayed in the popular imagination and press, was conducting insurgency and counterinsurgency campaigns and training local forces. During the 80s this largely overshadowed the direct action role for US Army Special Forces - they were chock full of guys that spoke Russian, Polish and Ukrainian.

The Ranger battalions were the direct-action guys, the SF were the ones to make the Soviets divert combat troops to protect their supply lines, (in the T2k context the Polish Free Legions were the children of 10th SF Group.) In addition, SF and the Long-Range Surveillance guys were providing targeting info for deep strikes (air, cruise missile, IRBM).

There had been a lot of discussion on the old board about raising additional Ranger battalions. It makes sense to me, makes GDW's commitment of the entire 75th Ranger Rgt to CENTCOM more reasonable to understand.

In 2000, I would imagine that there might be remnants of Ranger and other direct-action units scattered about, possibly attached or part of regular infantry/combat units. The SF guys would be a mixed bag... some would be deep into Byelorussia and the Ukraine, some in Poland, some "come back in from the cold" with whatever friendly unit they bumped into or were assigned to by whatever remained of high command. Some would have gone native and never come back. The state of the army in 2000 IMHO would argue against having much direct-action guys concentrated together, as the casualties would be irreplaceble and the insertion, target location and commo assets needed to perform missions scarce.

[Legbreaker]

There was small A-Team on Operation Reset that B troop of the 116th was suppose to support.
Minor correction - B troop had a completely seperate mission totally unrelated to Reset. Unfortunately they did not receive their final mission briefing from their contact and so never found out what it was (it was something relating to the retrieval of the Black Maddonna).
There is a specific mention of this in Black Maddonna, something about the right hand not knowing what the left was doing....

I believe the situation regarding SF types may resemble the approach the Germans took in WWII - there were no specialisted SF units. Missions were simply assigned to line units who were expected to carry them out.

This may be reflected in T2K as a unit trying it's best to carry out mission specific training and rehearsals, but as has been said, I doubt there'd be any organised SF training courses, schools and the like after late 97.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...I believe the situation regarding SF types may resemble the approach the Germans took in WWII - there were no specialisted SF units. Missions were simply assigned to line units who were expected to carry them out.

There was at least one and even when they no longer operated under their original title they continued on as a specialized unit, the Brandenburgers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburgers
http://thirdreich.net/Brandenberg_Commandos.html

[Raellus]

Here's an idea I think I presented on the old forum, and which may explain the relatively high proportion of "Ranger" characters that seem to populate the Twilight world.

Before '69 (IIRC), there were no separate Ranger regiments in the U.S. army. Instead, each division in the field (we're talking Vietnam here) was responsible for creating its own LRRP (long range reconaissance patrol) company. These LRRP companies were the precursors to modern Rangers and were designated as such in '69 (IIRC). Later, these companies were reorganized into the regiments still in existence today.

So, perhaps after '97 in the Twilight timeline, divisions in the field would create their own organic "Ranger" companies for LRRP'ing, prisoner snatches, ambushes, etc. This would make sense given the nature of warfare after the TDM. Perhaps each theatre would set up its own "Recondo" school to train these shake 'n' bake Rangers. In Twilight 2000 terms, "company" is a bit of a misnomer. Of course, by 2000, a company would probably be around pre-war TOE platoon strength.

Although this precedent/proposition applies to the U.S. (and Rangers, in particular), other countries could use a similar system.

With a war raging across the globe, I just don't see the quantity or quality of the remaining SOF being particularly high, c. 2000. Even at full Cold War strength, the SOFs of most nations would be stretched pretty thin once WWIII was in full swing.

[Targan]

As many forumites will know from my past crazy stories about my long running campaign, it focused on a core group of SF-type PCs and important NPCs. But the PC commander Major Po actively sought out and recruited SF types for his team where he could, and they weren't easy to find. Many important roles in his team were filled by characters who didn't have an SF background but were very good soldiers and were given additional training where possible by Po's SF personnel.

I'm not sure that SF troops would have survival rates that much lower than other troops. Sure they get sent on very dangerous missions but they are also damn good at what they do and they are some of the toughest and most resourceful troops. I think their survival rates would be on par or even slightly higher than line infantry.

In an RPGing context, having an SF-oriented campaign is all about balance in my experience. Sure Major Po's group were hard core killers and tended to utterly dominate similarly sized and equipped opposing forces, but they also attracted a higher quality of opposition too. In my campaign from Krakow onward Major Po's group were being actively hunted by elements of Spetznaz, the GRU and even the CIA. And once they made contact with Colonel Richard Stark from the DIA they were tasked with some horrendously difficult missions, they prime example being their (successful) deploying of a backpack nuke at WarPac Reserve Front HQ in Lublin.

In my campaign the CIA started a program in 1996 aimed at detecting and preventing any military takeover of the US Government in the event of a global war. This would seem like an act of prescience and in fact it was (a result of one of the great successes of Project Stargate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project). Major Po was one of a team of 12 US Army SF and Intelligence officers and NCOs who were recruited by the CIA and placed in positions in the US military where they keep watch for signs of a military coup. That is why Po (originally a medical doctor) went from being an FBI forensics agent to being comissioned as a US Army Green Beret captain. His SF and officer training were fast tracked but the escalation of the war prevented him from receiving all of his training and that is why he didn't have jump wings.

After the TDM in 1997 Po decided that CivGov was responsible for the destruction of the US and he went to the DIA and told them all about the CIA project he was involved in. After that the CIA went to a great deal of effort to have him killed. In my campaign there were some really vicious CIA vs DIA stoushes that continued right on into the Armies of the Night module.

I think that if a GM allows a player to have an SF-type character it should be on the condition that the player puts some effort into researching the role and playing the character appropriately. The players of SF characters in my campaign had very complex back stories and tended to be played (IMO) appropriately.

[Webstral]

So, perhaps after '97 in the Twilight timeline, divisions in the field would create their own organic "Ranger" companies for LRRP'ing, prisoner snatches, ambushes, etc. This would make sense given the nature of warfare after the TDM. Perhaps each theatre would set up its own "Recondo" school to train these shake 'n' bake Rangers. In Twilight 2000 terms, "company" is a bit of a misnomer. Of course, by 2000, a company would probably be around pre-war TOE platoon strength.


You've summarized my thinking more succinctly than I did.

Webstral

[fightingflamingo]

All US divisions will start the war with an organic LRS which is basically as described above. They are a division asset, roughly of company size. Corps will have larger LRS units but they exist in the prewar force structure for the divisions. They can be used in the long range recce, or as a direct action asset for the division or corps commander. Typically, the NCO's and officers to a large percentage will have gone through ranger school, in addition to the LRSU leaders course, plus the entire unit is airborne capable. I think some of these assets are listed on the Tanknet OOB, but I'm not sure. I know the 104th Inf Det (LRS) was part of the 28th ID.

[Matt Wiser]

I'd go along with Raellus and Webstral on that one. The professional SOF would be held at Corps and Army level for really high-value operations, while divisions would be setting up these Recondo schools for their own "Rangers." Of course, anyone who was already Ranger qualified would be in high demand as instructors.

Our group at CSU Fresno had six SEALs as PCs, but as the unit grew, to include some Soviet defectors, cut off Army personnel (with armor) and so on, it became more of a conventional unit. But those SEALs got to use their skills on numerous occasions-like when we did a Kelly's Heroes style adventure, and hitting the POW camp described in the Challenge article Black Siberia. (we gave the Commandant to the prisoners...his fate was, shall we say, richly deserved-the surviving guards were executed, and the trusties were lynched)

[simonmark6]

From my reading and research, there may be way more soldiers in the US Army with Ranger Tabs than there are Rangers in Ranger units. Ranger School seems to be a major way of developing leadership potential in soldiers of all combat arms.

In several of Harold Coyle's novels, I got the impression that completing Ranger School was, if not required, definately advantageous to getting promoted if you were an officer.

As the war went on, it is possible that troops with Ranger Tabs formed the core of LRRPs etc.

For other armies, simlar institutions may exist (I'm not sure), I do know that in British Regiments there are individual platoons or companies that train for specific missions, there are for instance, platoon traine as paratroopers (often called Pegasus Companies), jungle fighters (Chindit Companies) and other specific missions. This is supposed to garuntee that any given regiment has a cadre of trained troops should the unit be tasked with that type of mission.

It's not inconcievable that other armies do the same.

As for playing SF types, when I began playing FtoF Twilight, the role of SF was just coming into the popular conciousness and nearly everyone wanted to play SF types. Later we explored other roles and enjoyed playing line troopers.

Sometimes there is the temptation to kick back and play an action hero style SF member, but Twilight isn't really the system for that because, quite frankly the difference between SF careers and normal ones isn't that great.

Still, one day I'd love to run my munchkin character, but it probably wouldn't be as much fun as I think it would be.

[Rainbow Six]

When I was actively playing (which is now well over ten years ago), we didn't have any PC's that were current SF in our regular campaign, although we did have one US Army Sergeant First Class who was Ranger qualified (he broke both his legs in a parachute jump that went wrong in 1996 and the docs said he couldn't jump again, so he was transferred out of the 75th Ranger Regt and into the 5th Dvn just in time for the War in Europe) and one NPC who was a West German Fernspahtruppe.

There was no specific ban on Green Berets, SAS, and such like, it just never happened...(players were expected to come up with a plausible back story as to how their character ended up in Kalisz in August 2000 so that might have had something to do with it...personally I'd struggle to justify a realistic reason why a Green Beret Lieutenant Colonel (for example) would end up with a squad of 5th Dvn riflemen).

The group very occasionally encountered NPC SF types (such as a US Army Green Beret Captain who was working with one of the Polish Free Legions - the one that was in the north, I think the 2nd?), but I always tried to make such encounters rare, so that meeting a SF soldier was something that would stand out as something a bit diifferent...

Our Persian Gulf campaign was a little different (which was the intention to be fair)...SF types were much more common, both PC and NPC. Mind you, the Persian Gulf games always seem to run out of steam relatively quickly and we'd abandon our munchkins to come back to Europe and the more fleshed out, rounded characters we had there).

For the bigger picture, I go along with the view that in the year 2000 any remaining SF characters who have gone through all the required pre War qualifications, etc would be kept in reserve to be used as a strategic asset by Corps / Army HQ (or higher - I don't think it's too much of a stretch that any existing SF in CONUS might report directly to the Chiefs of Staff?).

[pmulcahy11b]

A possible consequence is that special ops training is going to get more diluted, and will be more and more OJT. Today, it takes a long time and a lot of money to produce a newbie special ops troop -- for an SF medic, for example, its about 14 months of training and close to $3 million. As the war goes on, that kind of time won't be available any more, but paradoxically, the need for special operators will increase.

I think that this will lead to "poaching" -- the best troops from regular units being drawn off and put into an accelerated special ops training in the new unit coupled with lots of OJT in their new unit.

Another effect will be that airborne-qualified special operators will decrease -- the qualification will be needed less and less as the war goes on and fuel and aircraft stocks decrease. By 2000, you'll have a bunch of guys with silver wings that may not even remember how to do a proper PLF anymore...

[Raellus]

I'm not sure that SF troops would have survival rates that much lower than other troops. Sure they get sent on very dangerous missions but they are also damn good at what they do and they are some of the toughest and most resourceful troops. I think their survival rates would be on par or even slightly higher than line infantry.

Perhaps. My assertion was based on the fact that in some of the SOF groups I've studied extensively (Vietnam era LRRPs/Rangers & SOG recon teams, WWII Allied airborne- not SOF, but certainly "elite"), unit casualty rates often exceeded 100%. Vietnam era SEALS did not, but they tended to be operating against the more isolated and poorly equiped VC in the Mekong delta (which became even more rag-tag after the '68 Tet offensive) rather than the better equipped and organized NVA. Only the WWII era-airborne troops were regularly involved in direct action missions. Green Berets leading irregular indigenous direct action units (Mike Forces & CIDGs) in the field, as well as manning SF camps, also had very high casualty rates. I'm not necessarity talking KIA here- a lot of the casualties were WIA and many returned to their SOF units where they were WIA again (or KIA). But, if you're WIA badly or often enough, you're not likely to be put back into the field. To support my idea for divisional/corps level provisional "Ranger" (LRRP) units, these folks could make up the training cadre for the army level Recondo school that would train these provisional Rangers.

On the other hand, in WWII at least, some conventional units also approached or even met the 100% casualty ceiling. In general though, per capita, in WWII and Vietnam, SOF (and Airborne) units had significantly higher casualty rates than conventional combat units. So, it's by no means a hard and fast rule that SOF casualties would exceed those of conventional forces, but there is some convincing recent evidence to support this.

One boon/bane (depending on how you look at it) is that it is so easy to explain the presence of SOF in T2K campaigns (at least in Europe). Since SOF often operated behind enemy lines, it makes sense to be meeting up with onesies and twosies. In some cases, it's more difficult to explain the presence of conventional forces deep behind enemy lines. For example, my PbP is currently set near Warsaw in mid October 2000. As far as I know, no NATO conventional forces were operating in that area in the summer of 2000. SOF, on the other hand, could have any number of reasons to be operating there, even that late in the war.

[Abbott Shaull]

I think by 2000 many Corps, Armies and Army Groups HQ would have their own 'Funnies' as such units were called in WWII in the British Army. With the fact that in Europe and Iran both side would have several levels of Special Operation units operating. Not sure what would be happening in Korea since GDW never got to make any module of there.

Many of the last properly train Green Berets, Rangers, and Seals would still be on the CONUS. First the SF and Seal units would be used to help with disaster relief. Then they would be needed in the Northwest and then in the Southwest. By 2000 some units would started to be diverted to deal with New American threat.

Much like the Soviet Special Force team roaming Southern Poland to keep an eye on what the Czechs were doing to the south as well the Free City of Krakow and the Kingdom of Silesian as well keep eye on what the Soviet unit that had stop obeying orders and were either operating as marauders or heading home.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The Funnies from WW2 refers to a number of tanks modified for the invasion of Normandy, they weren't special forces.

[simonmark6]

I'm not sure about WW2, but British units from 1946 to about the mid Sixties were involved in lots of counter-insurgency operations as teh Empire was disbanded. The SAS and other British elite units were involved in lots of Black Ops and undercover work, including "keenie meenie" (snake in the grass operations).

In one instance, British soldiers out in local towns were being targetted by terrorists. The SAS started to send out single soldiers in uniform followed but a disguised hit team (apparently a prerequisite of being on the team was that they could quick draw a HP-35 and empty the magazine into a target the size of a playing card -I don't know how far the target was from the shooter). The target soldier would get into trouble and the disguised team would get the terrorists.

Individual Regiments started to copy this technique and there were several instances of the SAS being ambushed by Regular soldiers and vice versa.

This would suggest that units would start copying succesful special ops tactics by forming their own units, these wouldn't be as effective or well trained but might provide some service.

As for the best men being siphoned off tor SOF work, this might happen but you can bet that lots of units would be hiding their best troops in order to keep their own units effective.

[weswood]

I was going to bring up Battalions having thier own incountry recondo schools but Rae beat me to it. I know for a fact 101st AB did this, my father was one of the LRRPs for a while, and I've read a couple books about it.

As far as "siphoning off the best men", the Bn asked for volunteers and the recondos were chosen from them.

Pop told some wild stories about 4 man recon patrols, and I don't know if it was while he was with the recon unit, but he was also an advisor to an ARVN unit.

[Raellus]

I was going to bring up Battalions having thier own incountry recondo schools but Rae beat me to it. I know for a fact 101st AB did this, my father was one of the LRRPs for a while, and I've read a couple books about it.

I've read a couple of memoirs by 101st ABN LRRPs. I wonder if your dad was mentioned.

[weswood]

I've read a couple of memoirs by 101st ABN LRRPs. I wonder if your dad was mentioned.

None of the ones I've read. Although I have pictures of Tim Garner and this big black dude whose name I've forgotten who was mentioned in one book.

[jester]

I can see this happening in various units, especialy those who who have established their own catonments. However, it is true that alot of units at the company level will keep their best men back so they can look good to the comand. As for "volunteers" well there is volunteer and "volunteer" or "volunteered" which is often a way for units to get rid of problem children and make them someone else's headache. Sure the trooper may be good, but, if they are a non traditional type this often IRKS the standard leaders so they are happy to see them go. On the other hand someone who is non traditional is perfect for the unconventional forces since they tend not to be "yes" men and act independantly, tell an officer to piss off if they are messed up and do it not the book way but do things how it will actualy work.

However, I can see alot of units certainly at the division level and probably at the Regimental Level opening their own if not schools at least training programs to bring support personel up to speed, the Air Force and Navy personel and the untrained replacements from the States up tp speed.. As well as bringing the personel new and existing versed in enemy equipment or tactics or new developements, as well as regular training like a leadership program for new NCOs, an OCS program converting seasoned NCOs into much needed officers, maybe even transfering MOSes turning out engineers, medics and reconassance specialists from clerks, regular infantrymen and even men from mechanized units who no longer have a job.

One thing to consider, is alot of forces and nations still rely on the Regimental System, the US Army was focused on the Divisional system although they are going to the modular thing which is focused on the Brigade system which really is nothing more than a reinforced brigade, but the mindset is still being created and has yet to exist.

[Adm.Lee]

I agree with those who say that most formations will form their own informal recon schools, to keep their scout units full-strength (or as near as anyone can). I think a lot of these may be the first to convert to horse cavalry. Long-range patrols may look like Vietnam War LRRPs and Rogers' Rangers of the Seven Years War, mounted or not. This is what I see in most adventures written in modules or magazines.

'Striker' style units, aka commandos who blow up stuff in the night, will be much more rare, as the intelligence and rapid-insertion capabilities of even WW2 disappear. Instead, raids may be much more short-ranged, and resemble WW1-style trench raids, and assembled on the fly. The need for direct-action SOF will fade away, and be replaced by infantry or cavalry forces, perhaps volunteers or handpicked or just assigned.

In summary: SOF? not so much anymore, except for scout-rangers.

[Webstral]

The ability of a given force or cantonment to support specialized training will vary wildly from setting to setting. At one extreme we might find Colorado, with its large and fairly stable population, food, and plenty of men with rifles. Colorado might be able to train something along the lines of the pre-war Special Forces or just Special Operations. At the other end will be innumerable tiny cantonments incapable of providing more than rudimentary training to their scouts. Once again, the larger and more stable cantonments will have certain advantages over the smaller and more tenuous ones over the long haul.

To some degree, marauders might be able to tap into inherited skills. Some of their number might be hunters, former military, or otherwise talented in recon, intelligence gathering, or what have you. In most cases, these people aren't going to be able to pass much on. The marauder's life seems rather sketchy.

Warlords, on the other hand, might have some success in training their own LRS. Whether a warlord in 2001 would see any advantage in having SF-type troops is an open question. I could certainly see a warlord wanting informants in place in the surrounding communities. I don't know if that means moving ahead to more specialized troops.

The Soviets in Alaska might be in a good position to assemble Special Operations teams. They are marooned in Anchorage with a lot of troops and (presumably) little in the way of supply. SO types might be the best way for them to make the most of their abundant manpower and limited supply. They might also be the best way to take the war to the Americans.

Webstral

[jester]

Long Range Raids would be used. I can see two versions used.

The short instant raids on enemy supply depots and other vital areas in the immediate area.

Long Range raids like the plot from the John Wayne classic "Horse Soldiers" based on Griersons raid, or even Shermans march. You are sneaking into enemy territory, and striking deep into the heart of the enemy doing more than a specific mission in support of a specific operation. But the long range mission would disrupt the enemy on multiple levels, supply, transit, local populations and reducing their numbers available to fight as they would need more troops in the rear to guard against further raids.



SPECIAL OPERATIONS FORCES:

We can develope troops with special skills for special operations. That would be pretty easy since the forces would simply train for the specialty that the area they are in provides.

Colorado <as was mentioned> would be the place you could train some kickass mountain troops, with plenty of oportunities for winter training like skiing, winter survival and fighting, mountain training, rock climbing, rapelling, and lots of forced marches for conditioning.

As well as recon and scouting as they apply for that terrain and climate.

Coastal areas, would involve lots of swimming and water operations, infiltrtion and scaling rocky beach cliffs.

Iowa or Kansas or similiar plains areas would require scouting both on foot and via horseback as well as camping out under wide open skys, but also how to operate in a open savanah or grassland infiltration and similiar skills as well as long range shooting would be good skills that would be natural ones for those regions as well as well needed.

Some things would be almost universal, trench, urban would be easy to set up almost anywhere, as would alot of the basics.

[pmulcahy11b]

I can't remember who said it, but the saying "Make the enemy fear his own home," comes to mind. This would be a good use for such troops, though these would be troops who would have to slowly infiltrate enemy territory instead of a quick insertion. They would also have a good use for enemy equipment, especially weapons and uniforms.

[Legbreaker]

Having served in both reserve and regular units, I'd have to say the best suited to a T2K situation would be the reservists.

Although usually lacking in strictly combat skills, they often have a much broader range of survival skills to draw from. Depending on where they're originally drawn from, you can almost guarentee a plattoon will include somebody who knows something about a task. For example in one reserve plattoon I was in, we had a mechanic, banker, several farmers, builder, ex navy comms specialist, locksmith, train driver, pilot (small single engines), and ambo (paramedic). Most were also keen fishermen, hunters, etc in their spare time.

I can see this type of unit almost being tailor made for some SF missions. Giving them a month or so of intensive military and fitness training might actually be quicker than training a military unit in all the technical skills they might need.

Of course in a purely combat sense I'd rather have the professionals who'd been training in nothing else for the past few years...

[jester]

Leg;

Your idea of an elite group of reservists seems more like a pretty well rounded T2K group.


As for the reserve units in this neck of the woods, and I am glomming National Guard and Reserve forces. Most will usualy come from the same geographic area in these parts. Granted they will have a good section of skills, the same one would find in any cross section of society, ranging from high school drop outs to lawyers. However, the majority of the troops will be from the same geographic area thus the vast majority will have the general skills or adapatations, talents whatever for that geographic area.

However, I would consider a good chunk of them FARRRRRRRRRR from elite.

As for another portion, well the cool thing here is that that type of world/life/culture will attract alot of people of the same type. As well as alot of them will have been prior military with one or two or even three or four tours as a regular before going Reserve/Guard who are now just finishing their 20 or 30 or are tired of the BS so the whole one weekend a month is enough before they can escape the BS and games. Those would be the ones who would be your combat monsters, whereas Johny civilian would have other skills to bring to the show they would most likely be subpar when it comes to their routine military duties.

So, cool having a broad range of skills, but not at the cost of having a degraded level of their primary/assigned skills.

[Legbreaker]

Ah, I think I see your confusion. Is it true that in the US a reservist must have served full time first?
Here in Australia, that is not the case, in fact I started as a reservist and ended my military career as a regular soldier. Reserve units are drawn from particular geographic areas, however the range of civilian skills each unit has is absolutely astounding! An understrength infantry battalion of say 350 men has 350 sets of well rounded and professional level skills (it's what they do 5 days a week after all).

Now compare that to a regular unit in which 99% of it's members have been military from 17-18 years of age. How many of these are going to have all that useful non-combat skillsets?

Granted the vast majority of reservists aren't up to scratch in a military sense (several individuals immediately spring to mind from my personal experience), but there are definate exeptions. In my own original company I'd say there were at least ten who would stand a decent chance at passing SAS selection given a few weeks of preparation. Bear in mind that at the time the company was at a strength of only 58 men (roughly 53%), so 1 in 6 is a fairly decent proportion.

On the other hand out of that same number there were at least 3 who should NEVER have been trusted with a rifle...

[Abbott Shaull]

That is one of the things, National Guard and Reserve units would have a lot of troops with various skill set that would be useful in the T2K world. I know there has been debate that these units would still have their local flavor still by 2000.

One of the things one has to remember, as far as, the Soviets were still sending conscripts to units and many of the Pact forces would still be recruiting conscripts on much smaller scale than before the war. Even though many of the US Reserve and National Guard or even the Regular US Force wouldn't be quite the Elite troops that we think when we speak of Special Forces units. With maybe the exception of those troops in the Southwest and Northwest US and Balkan, many of these troop would be better off than their overall Pact counterparts.

Even with some Soviet Division still fielding 3000 or more, one has to wonder how many of these troops are conscripts, that would be of little use in combat. Many of them would be cannon fodder, for the local Divisional Commander.

Another thing one has to remember is before the outbreak of the war, in the Pact Forces many of the task that NATO NCO Corps did in their respective organization were done by the Junior Officers in the Pact Forces. Many of the NCOs in Pact Force were conscripts who deemed smart enough to take some limited leadership. In most cases the NCOs in the Soviet couldn't read maps or land navigate. In some cases, they had very little control of their squads, the squad already had natural leader who the NCO had to work with in many cases to keep discipline within the squad. By 2000 for a large part the NCOs of the Pact Forces would be taking on some of the responsibilities due to OTJ. The fact that many Officers who were working in position of greater responsibility, and they needed to rely on their NCOs to perform jobs, that they previously were responsible for. Even though many of these NCOs weren't trained to do such before the war.

[weswood]

Ah, I think I see your confusion. Is it true that in the US a reservist must have served full time first?
.

Negative. Prior service is not required. The reserve unit I was in, 1st Bn, 23rd Regiment, USMCR, from what I remember, most of the enlisted personel did not have prior service. A lot of the Staff NCO's (E-6 & up) had some prior service, and I know of at least one Captain who did, but most of the troops did not.

My Gunny at the time, the S-4, was a Vietnam veteran, and the S-4, a Capt. was in Beruit when it got bombed. I think the Capt got into some trouble over that, but I don't know the whole story, just rumors.

To keep on subject, there was a STA (Surveilance & Target Aquisition)platoon. I don't know how well trained they were, but thier primary MOS was infantry.

[jester]

Wes said it, no the US does not require prior service for Reserve or National Guard. In some cases they don't accept prior service period! Like in the 90s durring the draw down, and now. It all depends on the demand for troops.

As for STA that Wes mentioned, these are also the snipers at the Battallion level, a Platoon of Sniper/Scouts in each Marine infantry Bn. I trained alot of my people to prep for the indoc. 1 weenie wantded me to hand hold him through the indoc, obviously he didn't make it, fucker was back in the barracks before morning chow because it was to much for him. Alot of other dudes did make it though.

But, the whole reserve vs. regular thing is pretty accurate.

Reservists will have mostly people who SUCK at the whole military thing but will be very diverse in other fields. But for military skills and training, there will be a couple elites, a good number of veterans, some experienced and about 50% novice when it comes to military skills and tasks. As for cop stuff, construction workers and similiar its a different storey, they would probably have several of them in a company as well as a good number of students. A good force for forming a catonment and imprioving a small town or village in almost everyway imagineable due to their varied skills, but only a limited number would be experienced enough to bring the fight to the enemy.

And that is the issue, a combat force of say mech infantry, well if only 1 in 5 were any good at it, then the ability of that force is degraded and it won't matter how good or how many diverse skills they have, they are a plus of course, but in the end they can't do the job they are supposed to.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to think that the portrayal of Reservist units here is somewhat inaccurate.
By the year 2000 there wouldn't be many Reservists in Europe who hadn't had at least one year fulltime in the war.
The idea of all Reserve units being mostly staffed by people with crap military skills discounts those Reserve units that are actually very good at what they do and I don't mean just the Reserve/Territorial units of the SASR in the UK or the Commando units here in Australia.
There are a number of Reserve engineer, signals and reconnaissance units that, granted they are specialized, are every bit as good as their Regular counterparts and the harsh reality is that for many Infantry units, it only takes approximately a quarter of a year to make someone competent to be an Infantryman.
Again, given the fact that the majority of Reserve units would have been committed to the war, there would be very few Reservists who hadn't had at least some fulltime experience at the front. By the time the war was in full swing it would be hardly worth raising Reserve units, you would simply send the personnel to Regular units (or Reserve units already at the front who by that time would be fulltime just like a Regular unit).

Well, that's my take on the war anyway...

[Legbreaker]

This is very true. By 2000 almost everyone, no matter from which background, will have been brought up to speed for their assigned role - it's either that or die for the front line types. It is very unlikely though that regular soliders will have picked up much in the way of civilian skills.

While the reservist has been at war, they will probably not improve their civilian skills, however they aren't likely to forget all that much. Using myself as an example, I've had around 15 jobs in the past 20 years or so and I'm fairly confident I can still fulfill the requirements for virtually every one of them.

It's this civilian background which is likely to be more attractive in an SF situation, particularly those from medical, electronic (comms), mining (explosives), and rural (hunting) backgrounds. Many other civilian jobs will transfer directly into military roles such as mechanics, doctors, electricians, cooks, truck drivers - the list goes on.

"Hobby" typoe skills are also useful, such as skydiving, scuba, sailing, hiking, etc.

[Targan]

At the moment I'm reading the book Warrior Brothers - My Life in the Australian SAS by Keith Fennell and in it he describes a time when his SAS squadron was deployed to East Timor to deal with rampaging pro-Indonesian militias and the Indonesian special forces troops who were supporting them. The 2IC of Fennell's patrol during the deployment was a British SBS sergeant on a two year exchange posting.

I know that probably everyone here knows that such exchange postings occur but I thought I'd mention it just as a reminder of one of the ways a special forces type unit contain all kinds of wierd and wonderful characters. In the third of the Last Submarine modules it describes a mixed bag special forces unit working for the King of Norway that contains British SAS, SBS, USN SEALs and other NATO special forces soldiers. What an incredibly hard core bunch. Scary.

[Raellus]

Good point Targan.

But you got me thinking and I think the SOF angle could really be extended even further. You could have SOF soldiers from the Philippines, Brazil, South Korea, Chile, or almost any allied country serving alongside NATO SOF in Europe (or wherever your campaign happens to be). Once the bomb drops, getting home would become extremely difficult, to say the least. Once bonds of comradeship developed, I'm sure many such soldiers would elect to stay on and fight alongside their new "family".

Along the same lines, in my POC PbP campaign we have an Israeli doctor PC who was on an exchange posting when the balloon went up.

[Legbreaker]

Technically she's only a senior nurse, but probably got skills to match most doctors. Certainly outranks most of them. ;)

Something else to keep in mind is that not only SF types can be on exchange. In my first unit we had a Canadian, in another was one of the most hardcore British Captains I've ever met. Even with three broken ribs they were still doing as much, if not more than everyone else, and since it was Canungra (arguably Australia's toughest place rivalled only by Tullly)....

Canungra is the jungle warfare centre and conducts courses at Plattoon level and above (Tully focuses on the smaller units and individual skills). It's so tough that almost nobody makes it through without an injury of some type - one in my Battalion had an epileptic fit on day two brought on by the physical stress, first one in his 28 years of life (he was medically discharged shortly after). I was lucky, I only suffered heat exhaustion and had to be stretchered out to hospital.

[boogiedowndonovan]

In the third of the Last Submarine modules it describes a mixed bag special forces unit working for the King of Norway that contains British SAS, SBS, USN SEALs and other NATO special forces soldiers. What an incredibly hard core bunch. Scary.

I can't remember, is that SOF group considered the Kings Guard in T2k?

What I do remember is that the senior SEAL suffers from some kind of mental disorder (PTSD?) and the GM has the option of rendering him catatonic at critical parts of the scenario.

or something like that...

oh yeah, and if any of you have the Boxed 2.2 set, there are some scenario cards. If I recall one of the scenario cards details a Spetznaz group a la T2k. Most of the members of the Spetznaz group aren't actually Spetz, but regular soldiers recruited by the surviving Spetznaz? Or maybe it was in the Merc handbook?

[pmulcahy11b]

In US units, another thing to consider is that you will find a decent number of troops who are US troops, but are not actually Americans. This is because while anyone willing to take the oath can enlist in the US military, you cannot reenlist unless you are an American citizen. The military will then move heaven and earth to make the soldier and his immediate family US citizens. (As it should be, IMHO.)

In T2K, reenlistment will become irrelevant for this purpose, and you may find folks from various countries that are now higher ranks or even field-commissioned that are technically not American. Who knows what skills they might have?

[Targan]

In US units, another thing to consider is that you will find a decent number of troops who are US troops, but are not actually Americans. This is because while anyone willing to take the oath can enlist in the US military, you cannot reenlist unless you are an American citizen. The military will then move heaven and earth to make the soldier and his immediate family US citizens. (As it should be, IMHO.)

I wasn't an Australian citizen when I joined the Australian Army Reserve but once I'd signed up they fast tracked my citizenship. Very cool.

[Legbreaker]

Who'd be an American when they could be Australian?

:D

As far as I'm aware, there are tens of thousands of troops classified as "Spetznaz" while only a handful of those could truely be called elite in the same sense as the SAS, Commandos, SEALs, etc. I believe the term is more a reference to the unit's role than anything else.

[Webstral]

Regarding reserves, I think it's useful to distinguish between pre-war and post-nuke reserves. I agree with all my comrades who have opined that virtually all Reserves of every stripe (National Guard, Reserves, Territorials, etc.) in the combatant nations would have been called up by 1998. Given the disruption to international trade, probably every nation with reserves will need to call them up to deal with civil disorder in the wake of shortages, economic disintegration, and so forth.

After the nukes, though, reserves are quite likely to reappear. The need for fighting men, or simply for warm bodies to do work for the government, will exceed the local economy's ability to support full-time troops. Reserves will reappear in the form of militias that train for a given number of days a month but otherwise engage in some sort of productive activity until marauders make their appearance. The quality of training these people have in their assigned roles will range from tolerable to deplorable.

By way of example, I created the Granite Brigade as the centerpiece of the armed forces of the State of New Hampshire, which by early 2001 is really only the City of Manchester and its hinterland. The Graniteers dispose four infantry battalions, but only one of them (1st Battalion, 1st New Hampshire Regiment, Infantry) is a regular, standing force. The other three battalions (1st, 2nd, and 3rd Battalions, 2nd New Hampshire Regiment, Infantry) are reservists who serve one week in every four. Even this level of service is quite disruptive to local industry and is tolerable only because there is little better option. The troops of the 2nd New Hampshire spend most of their drill time manning static defenses and reinforcing their basic training. By the v1 system, virtually all of the privates and specialists in the 2nd New Hampshire are Novice NPCs, while most of the remaining troops are Experienced NPCs. A few Veteran NPCs are found here and there, but the need for seasoned (and skilled) troops in 1-1 IN is so great that 1-2 IN, 2-2 IN, and 3-2 IN that the 2nd New Hampshire Regiment has to make do with what it can get.

Much the same situation exists along the Maine coast in First District, USCG. The need for experienced troops in the main force units, 701st and 702nd Maritime Rifle Regiments (each with two line battalions and a support battalion), has left the supporting militias with a kernel of seasoned veterans in senior leadership roles and training cadres and a lot of modestly-trained part-time riflemen. Here, too, the militiamen are used to man static defenses, conduct interior patrols, and generally slow the bad guys up until the real fighters can arrive.

The United Communities of Southern Vermont (UCSV) is an even more extreme case. The Black Watch, with its 300 fighting men and women, has no effective back-up. The economy of the UCSV is insufficient to support much in the way of reserves. On paper, a number of citizens are armed and can be deputized. In reality, the potential combatants who do not actively serve in the Watch have almost no training. The Watch leadership made the decision to use their very limited resources to keep the active personnel in constant training and readiness at the expense of having a significant reserve. It's a policy fraught with hazard for the long-term prospects of the UCSV, but it has enabled the Watch to field a small but surprisingly high-quality force. Were the so-called reserves of the UCSV to be called into service, they would put in a very poor performance.

By the same token, the Shogun in Nevada has no real reserves for his army, the Gunryo. Volunteers and draftees are trained on an as-needed basis, which means the warlord cannot quickly made good on any substantial losses. Reserves would be totally impractical for his motorized marauders, since any reservists would live and work in the communities the Shogun has under his thumb. Training and arming the people he is repressing is not, in the mind of the Shogun, the way to long-term power. Better to keep casualties low and train only volunteers and captured marauders whose loyalty can be acquired through re-training.

At the other end of the spectrum, Colorado must have a comparatively massive reserve system. The 6000 or so troops listed in Howling Wilderness as belonging to Colorado Springs couldn't possibly be enough to maintain internal order and protect the cantonment from outside threats. There must be a separate police system and a reserve system of some sort. certainly, MilGov would have access to excellent training facilities and a good cadre of veterans for training.


Webstral

[fightingflamingo]

I think that by 2000-01 most of the surviving population would be relatively fit, albiet malnourished in some instances. I think the combination of the strikes, disease, and the collapse of infrastructure would have killed off most of those who were not fit. Diabetics and other sufferers of chronic illness would be dead. Because of the lack of antibiotics, many traumatic injuries would result in death, even with otherwise good medical care. Cancer is a long-term problem, but not immediately debilitating depending on the type.

Another think to consider is the baby boom you'd get when people run out of contraceptives and TV goes off the air... I think that although there may be a very high rate of birth defects, you'd still see a radical spike in the number of births per 1000 also as a result of the strikes, among the survivors. This won't play into the immediately available manpower, but does immediately address the need to find teachers (trained or otherwise), and the available manpower situation might be very different by 2010-15.

[jester]

I think that by 2000-01 most of the surviving population would be relatively fit, albiet malnourished in some instances. I think the combination of the strikes, disease, and the collapse of infrastructure would have killed off most of those who were not fit. Diabetics and other sufferers of chronic illness would be dead. Because of the lack of antibiotics, many traumatic injuries would result in death, even with otherwise good medical care. Cancer is a long-term problem, but not immediately debilitating depending on the type.

Another think to consider is the baby boom you'd get when people run out of contraceptives and TV goes off the air... I think that although there may be a very high rate of birth defects, you'd still see a radical spike in the number of births per 1000 also as a result of the strikes, among the survivors. This won't play into the immediately available manpower, but does immediately address the need to find teachers (trained or otherwise), and the available manpower situation might be very different by 2010-15.


However, the infanty mortality rate would also spike, as there would be less neonatal facilities, poorer died and exposure to all manner of nasties for the unborn. Also, a spike in women dying in childbirth as well again because of a lack in prewar treatments.

And the simple childhood maladies that we consider an incovienance now would return and be the killers they were 100+ years ago when a large number of children would not make it to 10 years of age due to disease and injury.

Also, the spike in childbirth, would there be? The reproduction capacity of people under stress shuts down. Due to physical and emotional stress. So, people working hard labor, worried from say a nuclear strike and war all over, and with malnutrition. A little known fact, durring the great depression the birthrate for many nations dropped due to people afraid to start families because of fear of the unknown and economy. For the US it was the lowest birthrate ratio ever. So, it could actualy be in areas with few children. Also, couple it with the wouldbe parents exposuure to radiation, chemicals and other stuff that could make them sterile further reducing the populations ability to return to normal.

[bigehauser]

I think having a PSYOP guy or two would be a pretty interesting addition to a team, even if it was just an NPC.

[Abbott Shaull]

In US units, another thing to consider is that you will find a decent number of troops who are US troops, but are not actually Americans. This is because while anyone willing to take the oath can enlist in the US military, you cannot reenlist unless you are an American citizen. The military will then move heaven and earth to make the soldier and his immediate family US citizens. (As it should be, IMHO.)

In T2K, reenlistment will become irrelevant for this purpose, and you may find folks from various countries that are now higher ranks or even field-commissioned that are technically not American. Who knows what skills they might have?

In the Going home it is how the get the Polish American Father able to come back to the US even though he was a Polish Citizen. It was something to do with his service he had give then unit to get them back to catch the boat.

[Targan]

I think having a PSYOP guy or two would be a pretty interesting addition to a team, even if it was just an NPC.

Hah! Shameless self promotion! :D

[bigehauser]

Shameless...lol

[Abbott Shaull]

Who'd be an American when they could be Australian?

:D

As far as I'm aware, there are tens of thousands of troops classified as "Spetznaz" while only a handful of those could truely be called elite in the same sense as the SAS, Commandos, SEALs, etc. I believe the term is more a reference to the unit's role than anything else.

Yeah that is true then again most Front Commander had Spetznaz Brigades, several independent Battalions, Companies, and the Platoon size units on par of the SAS Troops or Special Forces A-Teams. The quality of troops would be reflected on if it was Brigade, Battalion, or smaller. The Companies and smaller size units would be on par with what many Western nation would call Special Forces quality troops. While the Battalions and Brigades would be the next step down, and the Brigades would probably be on mix of Airborne/high speed Light Infantry/Ranger types. They have received more training than the average Soviet Paratrooper who themselves during the Cold War were conscripts for the most part.

The thing with the independent Battalions, Companies and smaller units they would be based with Cat B and Cat C units to help misled the unit true strength and to hide these units. Same thing was probably done Cat A units in Eastern Europe to hide some of the first special ops units that would of been inserted into West Germany. One of the thing in each Tank Army in the late 1980s the Soviets were trying to assign an Air Assault or Airmobile Brigade and in many of the MRD there was MRR, usually the wheeled based unit would also supplemented as Airmobile asset too.

[dragoon500ly]

As far as reservists being not as good as their Regular Army counterparts in their military capacity....

The finest Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment in the world happens to be the OPFOR at Fort Irwin, California (National Training Center). This unit does nothing but Soviet tactics for most of the year and has the well-earned reputation for regularing kicking the bejesus out of every visiting unit. The OPFOR is so seldom defeated that when it does happen, the rest of the Army litterly sets up and take notice...like when a National Guard pulled it off. I can still remember the utter shock of my unit's officers/NCOs that a Guard unit managed to pull off something that we hadn't been able to do....

Of course, my faith was restored when the next NG unit in rotation was gutted in proper fashion!

Still, whenever someone makes the claim that the Reserves just aren't as good as....

[bobcat]

during vietnam eery major deployable unit had their own organisational long rang recon units. this has been carried on into present though the name for such unit types has changed(its currently RSTA).

having been in a reconnaissance surveillance and target acquisition squadron myself it would not be unlikely that such units would continue to exist in the later stages of the twilight war. though im certain they would still be ignored as is characteristic of most brass.

[Eddie]

during vietnam eery major deployable unit had their own organisational long rang recon units. this has been carried on into present though the name for such unit types has changed(its currently RSTA).

RSTAs are Cavalry Squadrons, though, not Infantry. While things are similar, the modern evolution of LRRPs are the LRSCs. The most major difference from the Vietnam-era LRRPs is that these units are no longer under the direct control of the Infantry and Armor units they support, they now fall under the command of the Battlefield Surveillance Brigades. That's not to say there isn't overlap between a RSTA's role and what LRS does, but they have two completely different mindsets and MOS backgrounds as well as role. The RSTA supports the Brigade that it falls under, the LRSC/D supports higher level, deeper reconnaissance. In a Twilight setting, they'd still be a part of each major Division though existing as a separate entity.

Additionally, the OPFOR at the National Training Center have lost a lot of their conventional role and now play Militant Islamic insurgents almost exclusively. I went to the Captain's Career Course with a guy who was a platoon leader there and he said he had never done any of the Soviet-style stuff in his three years there. I'm sure it's still in the organizational memory somewhere, but the current Joes there haven't done much with it. Although that might change with all of the saber-rattling coming from Kimmy and Seoul...

[Rapparee]

Having served in both reserve and regular units, I'd have to say the best suited to a T2K situation would be the reservists.

I can see this type of unit almost being tailor made for some SF missions. Giving them a month or so of intensive military and fitness training might actually be quicker than training a military unit in all the technical skills they might need.

Of course in a purely combat sense I'd rather have the professionals who'd been training in nothing else for the past few years...

Just to back up that point, definetely!

My medical company, includes nurses, healthcare specialists, first-aid instructors and a couple of paramedics amongst its ranks. We also have a few mechanics, carpenters, the usual scattered amongst us! Myself, I'm a mere novice on the medical side, but I do alot of rock climbing and mountaineering in my spare time. Reading Boomer and Bears Den was quite cool to see abit of cold-weather info thrown in there! Winter mountaineering ftw! Its easy to see how a reserve unit have a wide smattering of skills and disciplines amongst their ranks.


Just on the note of the "shake and bake" Ranger school you were discussing. Its a class idea about units forming their own recondo teams like the Lurps in Vietnam. Would a system like this still be in effect up till 2000? I'm just curious because I've had players ask me to play SF types but was wondering whether I could just wave it off as the PC had been at the new type of Ranger School.

[Raellus]

Just on the note of the "shake and bake" Ranger school you were discussing. Its a class idea about units forming their own recondo teams like the Lurps in Vietnam. Would a system like this still be in effect up till 2000? I'm just curious because I've had players ask me to play SF types but was wondering whether I could just wave it off as the PC had been at the new type of Ranger School.

Short anwer is yes. Here's what I wrote earlier in the thread.

Here's an idea I think I presented on the old forum, and which may explain the relatively high proportion of "Ranger" characters that seem to populate the Twilight world.

Before '69 (IIRC), there were no separate Ranger regiments in the U.S. army. Instead, each division in the field (we're talking Vietnam here) was responsible for creating its own LRRP (long range reconaissance patrol) company. These LRRP companies were the precursors to modern Rangers and were designated as such in '69 (IIRC). Later, these companies were reorganized into the regiments still in existence today.

So, perhaps after '97 in the Twilight timeline, divisions in the field would create their own organic "Ranger" companies for LRRP'ing, prisoner snatches, ambushes, etc. This would make sense given the nature of warfare after the TDM. Perhaps each theatre would set up its own "Recondo" school to train these shake 'n' bake Rangers. In Twilight 2000 terms, "company" is a bit of a misnomer. Of course, by 2000, a company would probably be around pre-war TOE platoon strength.

Although this precedent/proposition applies to the U.S. (and Rangers, in particular), other countries could use a similar system.

With a war raging across the globe, I just don't see the quantity or quality of the remaining SOF being particularly high, c. 2000. Even at full Cold War strength, the SOFs of most nations would be stretched pretty thin once WWIII was in full swing.

For my Lions of Twilight write up, I had the 173rd Airborne BCT start a recondo school in Kenya so that all of its widely scattered battalions would have organic LRRP companies.

[helbent4]

I think having a PSYOP guy or two would be a pretty interesting addition to a team, even if it was just an NPC.

Eric,

For the most part, I agree. PSYOPS is useful for more than just stereotypical propaganda. For one thing, PSYOPS requires a deep understanding of the population and the enemy, allowing you to get inside their minds and influence their decisions in different ways. On the downside, most T2K games tend to be on the "run and gun" side, where it's hard to run the longer-term operations that are the most benefit. For another, most T2K groups tend to run roughshod over the locals due to many factors, despite their best intentions.

Getting back to reservists vs. reg force, I recall a few years back a reality show took soldiers from the US and Canada and attempted to recreate the training for the 1st SSF, the Devil's Brigade.

http://www.warbooks.com/Graphics/1stSSF.jpg

Training was as authentic in as many ways possible from equipment to the actual camp location in Montana. Both nationalities did relatively well, and it was eventually revealed that the American participants were all US Army regulars, while the Canadians were all militia (Reserve Force). One joked "they had to keep it even, somehow!". Purely anecdotal, of course! I don't recall how many militia vs. reg force actually made it all the way through the simulated training.

Tony

[bobcat]

Training was as authentic in as many ways possible from equipment to the actual camp location in Montana. Both nationalities did relatively well, and it was eventually revealed that the American participants were all US Army regulars, while the Canadians were all militia (Reserve Force). One joked "they had to keep it even, somehow!". Purely anecdotal, of course! I don't recall how many militia vs. reg force actually made it all the way through the simulated training.

Tony

sounds about right. after all yankee reservists are far crazier than anything i've ever seen. and they got the nontraditional skills to back it up.

recon out.

[helbent4]

sounds about right. after all yankee reservists are far crazier than anything i've ever seen. and they got the nontraditional skills to back it up.

recon out.

Bob,

In this case it was Canadian reservists and American regulars. In theory they weren't competing but cooperating to make it through training and then in mock commando operations after. The joke was that this was to keep things "even" between the two countries.

Tony

[Abbott Shaull]

As far as reservists being not as good as their Regular Army counterparts in their military capacity....

The finest Soviet Motor Rifle Regiment in the world happens to be the OPFOR at Fort Irwin, California (National Training Center). This unit does nothing but Soviet tactics for most of the year and has the well-earned reputation for regularing kicking the bejesus out of every visiting unit. The OPFOR is so seldom defeated that when it does happen, the rest of the Army litterly sets up and take notice...like when a National Guard pulled it off. I can still remember the utter shock of my unit's officers/NCOs that a Guard unit managed to pull off something that we hadn't been able to do....

Of course, my faith was restored when the next NG unit in rotation was gutted in proper fashion!

Still, whenever someone makes the claim that the Reserves just aren't as good as....
It also goes to show that not all Reserve/National Guard Officers and their staff think "inside the box" as most in the Regular Army have been taught. As with many modern battlefield it not the General and his Staff that win the battle, it some Team Leader, Squad Leader, Platoon Leader, Company Commander, and/or Battalion Commander/XO/S-3 that happens to be Johnny on the spot and makes a decision that their opponent hadn't account for. By the time they realize they are in trouble it way too late.

I remember in the book "Team Yankee" when the Armor Company had been reinforce for supporting attack. They weren't the main axis of the attack, but somehow had captured a bridge. After they had reported to Battalion, the Brigade S-3 I believe who overheard the report came on. There was awkward silence as everyone tried to figure if they let the Battalion continue with their main attack in attempt to capture the bridge head the Battalion was after or shift the Battalion main axis. If they didn't shift the Battalion main attack then the question was there anyone they could move hastily to support the lucky reinforce Armor Company in holding their Bridge...

In modern Mechanized/Armor/Motorized warfare as we have seen these days it takes only little incidents like these to change things. In WWII there was this minor attack that led to the Battle of the Bulge. In which the German main attack had happen to strike at a point of the battle field that was held by green US Division that broke with none to little resistance against a force that no one was expecting to strike there.

[Abbott Shaull]

during vietnam eery major deployable unit had their own organisational long rang recon units. this has been carried on into present though the name for such unit types has changed(its currently RSTA).

having been in a reconnaissance surveillance and target acquisition squadron myself it would not be unlikely that such units would continue to exist in the later stages of the twilight war. though im certain they would still be ignored as is characteristic of most brass.

At least at one time all US Division had on the book in theory of National Guard unit that would take long range recon unit. Most of the so call "Light" had National Guard or Reserve Battalion that was to provide most of the Anti-Tank assets too.

With that said, I know in the most of the Regular Army "Light" Division there would be enough ex-Paratroop, ex-Air Assault, tabbed Rangers, and so on that by 1998-1999 that each would re-start the pre-ranger classes they had before the war and expand them to make a small company size unit that was able to act as the LRRP units had with each Division in Vietnam.

I can see some of these troop being 'borrowed' by Corps and other Division to set up similar units at those levels too. As well as setting up Infantry training school at both Corps and Division level to help retrain the excess support units personnel and personnel transferred in from other service to get them ready for their new job.

If one was to believe the troop levels that were expressed in the game, it wouldn't be far fetch to have Platoon/Squad with wide variety of skills sets, even in the Regular Army units. Another thing I have seen posted time again is the fact the misconception that National Guard that had been raised in one State or Region would still have a heavy influence from there. Yes, there would still be several troops left over from those areas, but if they had been in the fighting at any time until after late-1997 the odds are with the replacement for wounded dead would water it down quite a bit. This is due to the fact that the US Army would be responsible to provide replacement, not the National Guard of whatever state they came from. As support I would like to point out during the build up to WWII the 28th Division which was PA NG unit prior to Federalization had been tapped several time to provide cadre to other units that were being raised and Federalized. It was so out of hand at one time a certain Major General Bradley had sent word back up the chain of command that, yes the Division could provide another cadre, but he would need one sent to the Division to help train the replacements that they were still trying to train and bring up to speed.

[Abbott Shaull]

You've summarized my thinking more succinctly than I did.

Webstral

No honestly it can go either way. There could be a Company with 4 platoons... One for each of the three Brigades and one for Division. Or one "Company" in sense that many other Companies happen to be in. It would depend on a number of things, the Division itself, how much combat the Division has seen, and other factors. Armored and Mechanized Divisions would probably have a smaller "Companies", while a Light Infantry Division commander would try to field a company. One of the rationale behind this would be they would help the Divisional Cavalry in their assignment too. Remember in the US Army of the Twilight 2000 war, Brigades didn't have their own recon units. They relied on Division diverting assets to them or worse diverting the assets at Battalion level for their need.

Remember a Divisional Commander could come from any branch of the military in theory. Artillery unit or Engineer or Armor/Armor Cavalry/Mechanized minded Commanders wouldn't realize the what an 'asset' this type of company could be. On the other hand many Commanders who had seen service in Vietnam would view all Special Force with mix feelings. Some would know and understand what they are capable of, while others would go out of their way to not use them. It really depend on how any commander would feel what they need to provide the security for their unit. Much like a member of this group wrote up re-organization of the 5th US Mechanized Division in which it was basically one Heavy Brigade and two Light Infantry Brigade with enough transport to move a Battalion or two of those Brigade if need be.

One has to remember before the US Army committed troops World War II to the Battle that the Armor Division were basically 2 Armor Regiments and 1 Armor Infantry Regiment. Later all but two of the Divisions were reorganized 3 Armor Battalions and 3 Armored Infantry Battalion usually organized in into three combat commands that would have one Battalion of each to work with. Again Combat Command were quite fluid in who had what.

Up until 1943 the US Army had tried organize Motorized Infantry Divisions but the idea was dropped and it was decide that if they needed a Motorized Infantry Division they would supply a Division from Corps/Army/Army Group levels transport assets to make the unit mobile. Not only that many Division had enough Motorized Recon Vehicle (jeeps) and other transport to move up to Regiment at when need in leapfrog fashion. Much how the 101st had done with their Air Assault assets during Operation Desert Storm.

[dragoon500ly]

It also goes to show that not all Reserve/National Guard Officers and their staff think "inside the box" as most in the Regular Army have been taught. As with many modern battlefield it not the General and his Staff that win the battle, it some Team Leader, Squad Leader, Platoon Leader, Company Commander, and/or Battalion Commander/XO/S-3 that happens to be Johnny on the spot and makes a decision that their opponent hadn't account for. By the time they realize they are in trouble it way too late.

Don't know about thinking inside the box, but there are several units (the armored cav regts especially) that were trained to "wing it" as necessary. We were always taught that the doctrine was just a base and that the units had to key off of the individual track commander, if necessary. In several REFORGERS, for example, the 2nd ACR was famous for its end runs as well as its ability to find that special weak spot. We had scout tracks launching what turned out to be a regimental-sized attack just because they found a gap that the OPFOR wasn't watching. Regulars blindly following doctrine....not in any unit that I served in!

In modern Mechanized/Armor/Motorized warfare as we have seen these days it takes only little incidents like these to change things. In WWII there was this minor attack that led to the Battle of the Bulge. In which the German main attack had happen to strike at a point of the battle field that was held by green US Division that broke with none to little resistance against a force that no one was expecting to strike there.

Hmmm, first time I've every heard of a minor attack launching the BoB?!?! I study/read about the BoB and I've walked most of the ground that was fought over. The Germans went into the fight knowing that they were going to hit a thinly held sector, held by a mix of green and worn-out troops. Fifth Panzer Armee's attack was actually modified from Hitler's plan to take advantage of just how thinly the 28th Division held the front. As for the 106th...the main attack was keyed for the Lorsheim Gap, a major avenue of approach into St. Vith that was held by a single cavalry squadron with an attached battery of towed tank destroyers. Seeing that the Germans threw in a Fallschrimjager Division...the cav tried but failed to hold the line.

[HorseSoldier]

With that said, I know in the most of the Regular Army "Light" Division there would be enough ex-Paratroop, ex-Air Assault, tabbed Rangers, and so on that by 1998-1999 that each would re-start the pre-ranger classes they had before the war and expand them to make a small company size unit that was able to act as the LRRP units had with each Division in Vietnam.

By '98-99, divisions in everybody's military will have large bodies of really serious veterans. And units will be getting small enough that resume qualifications will be switching more to word of mouth and less and less about schools and tabs and other pre-war resume entries. Honestly, guys who survive through to 1999 have been through levels of privation and stress while doing the job for real under fire that eight weeks of suck in the woods of Georgia and swamps of Florida won't have imparted anything they haven't learned the hard way.

[natehale1971]

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

[Abbott Shaull]

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

Yeah I have felt that almost any unit that one throws together for the game would bring a good cross selection of skills sets that would allow them to pull of most operations. It was one of the few things that GDW got right with the game. Especially if one took the time to read the Player guide line and the back story in it about they used for the unit they used.

[Raellus]

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

That's a really good point, Nate. I do think an in-theatre RECONDO school would still be a good investment in the Twilight U, though. It would serve as a finishing school, if you will, for long-range patrolling, fieldcraft, small unit tactics, and E&E skills.

[natehale1971]

That's a really good point, Nate. I do think an in-theatre RECONDO school would still be a good investment in the Twilight U, though. It would serve as a finishing school, if you will, for long-range patrolling, fieldcraft, small unit tactics, and E&E skills.

Exactly... to give the personnel additional skills they would need for their missions. be it small unit training to get use to working the other members of their team out of combat or training them to use specialized weapons or equipment (because supplying specialized equipment and weapons would actually be easy all things considered, look at what happened with WW2 and the wonder weapons that the Germans were able to make while they were getting bombed 24/7, or the gear that OSS was coming up with out in the field).

[helbent4]

I've always felt that PCs are pretty much the SOF of their unit... mainly because of the things they end up doing during the campaign. With all the combat experiences they've had since the start of the war... they have the OTJ training necessary for the kinds of missions that pre-War SOF personnel/teams had been tasked for.

Nate,

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

The implication could be that this group is "special" in some sense and therefore are best kept intact as a kind of crack cadre or unit instead of broken up to reinforce other more conventional units.

Tony

[natehale1971]

Nate,

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

The implication could be that this group is "special" in some sense and therefore are best kept intact as a kind of crack cadre or unit instead of broken up to reinforce other more conventional units.

Tony

Yup... that's what gave me the idea that PCs are ad hoc SOF type units that came into being on the front lines, and became the stuff of legend!

[Webstral]

Getting back to the levels of experience in the combat units, I think it’s worthwhile to look at the encounter tables and the modules. A large slice of the combatants the PCs are expected to encounter are relatively (or not so relatively) unseasoned. This is because new guys are constantly being inducted. Many of them die pretty quickly, but the veterans are getting killed, too. It’s a tough world.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Getting back to the levels of experience in the combat units, I think it’s worthwhile to look at the encounter tables and the modules. A large slice of the combatants the PCs are expected to encounter are relatively (or not so relatively) unseasoned. This is because new guys are constantly being inducted. Many of them die pretty quickly, but the veterans are getting killed, too. It’s a tough world.

Webstral

So true, there was episode in the "Band of Brothers" in which many of the veterans wouldn't befriend new guys right away since they seemed to get killed so quickly. As stated even luck of the veterans would run out too.

[helbent4]

Yup... that's what gave me the idea that PCs are ad hoc SOF type units that came into being on the front lines, and became the stuff of legend!

Nate,

Dang, am I imagining the information on PC groups from some Challenge article or some adventure? They give tips for dealing with unit leaders that are of too low rank, suggesting that PCs can be promoted on a permanent of brevet basis.

Well, either way, a kind of "in theatre" school could qualify for a sort of SOF unit. Many T2K GMs understandably want to add skills to starting PCs. Such a "school" would be a perfect mechanism to give PCs a basic grounding in combat skills, especially some of the more esoteric ones. Also, it would even things with PCs that really are SOF.

Getting back to actual SOF and their inclusion as PCs, I think they tend to be over-represented and the GM is within their rights in drawing the line and limiting them to a few, at most. Unless the PCs are part of a kind of special unit, they are going to be rare as hen's teeth. As well, I guess in a Kalisz type scenario SOF might try to band together for survival, then allow others to travel along as "meat shields". Then again, if you allow SOF PCs, no one can rightfully complain if you, as a GM, throw some real bad hombres to oppose them!

Tony

[natehale1971]

all of the SOF guys i met, had said that rank didn't matter when out in the field on a mission. The person with the skills needed at that moment was the one in the lead. And that's how we always ran our groups... the person with the best 'hands on' knowledge would be the one in charge. The highest ranking member would be in charge when NOT in combat, they'd basicly be in charge of making sure we had food, water, ammo, shelter and the like. Basicly like the 2LT is in command of a platoon, but the Platoon Sergeant is the one who does the heavy lifting!

[Abbott Shaull]

That the concept that for many non-SOF personnel to wrapped their head around. The Senior man is basically in charge while not in the field and for admin purpose, but once you get in the field who ever has the strongest knowledge of that supported the missions the best would be in charge. It is one of the things traditional Officers and in cases senior NCOs have trouble with at time when they go to such units.

The best way to explain is when new 2nd Lts or Ensigns are get to their first duty assignment it quite a shock to some when they learn until they are told, they are 'consult' their senior NCO first before making any 'decision'. Then again for most senior NCOs it didn't matter if the 2nd Lt came from West Point, ROTC, or OCS they were treated equally and lord help you if you had been E-6 or higher and been through OCS. It was the OCS trained officers were suppose to know better than make certain mistakes that other Officers were bound to make.

In the tradition units this is the only time career of for Officers where they are in charge in title only. When they screw up, the senior NCO still gets a reaming for allowing the Officer doing something so stupid, even if said NCO was no where near said Officer when they screwed up.

Even when the Officer raise above the Platoon Leader position the senior NCOs they have become more and more 'advisor' types. Yet, in most case the unwritten rule is that they are to prevent them from screwing up to much.

As state in the SOF community, once in the field the Officer and Warrant Officer and all enlisted are trained to take orders from the person designate to be in charge of a particular mission.

[dragoon500ly]

To the credit of most officers when they first join the service, they do realize that the young Spec-4 often haves more experience than the new "butter-bar" does. Its those handful of "special" officers, you know, the ones who know that their excrement does not reek, that make life soooo intresting!

I don't recall every serving with a mustang officer that was bad. Its like serving as an NCO increased thier IQ by 200-300 points (LOL!!!).

[Abbott Shaull]

I agree for the most part the new 2nd Lt from West Point or ROTC after their training did realize that for the most that even the companies newest Specialist 4 knew more about thing than they did. Many had been told repeatedly during their training to listen to their senior NCOs, for they are their to make sure you don't make mistake that make them look bad.

Yes, the mustang Officers seemed to have their shit together quite well. Otherwise they would of never made it to OCS, also from what I seen they usually were fast tracked to 1st Lts because for the most part they had already done most of their mistake raising through ranks or had seen others make the mistakes they never told themselves they would never make.

Yes the problem children who had trouble smelling their own feces because they had grown use to the smell over the years. The non-surprising thing was the fact that many of these Officer usually didn't make far in leadership roles and could spend a career with luck in staff roles.

[helbent4]

all of the SOF guys i met, had said that rank didn't matter when out in the field on a mission. The person with the skills needed at that moment was the one in the lead. And that's how we always ran our groups... the person with the best 'hands on' knowledge would be the one in charge. The highest ranking member would be in charge when NOT in combat, they'd basicly be in charge of making sure we had food, water, ammo, shelter and the like. Basicly like the 2LT is in command of a platoon, but the Platoon Sergeant is the one who does the heavy lifting!

Nate,

Not really news to me, and hey, it makes sense. In my own game, that's certainly been the usual pattern. There is a Lt. Colonel in command of the unit, but basically lets the unit senior NCOs (a bunch of Sergeants) run the show tactically while she takes care of the logistical end, interfaces with the high command and local community, and keeps the unit on-mission be defining the objectives. (She's also an NPC, and can fade into the background a little too much, which is probably fine with the players as they are allowed a freer hand.)

I was more just looking for a particular rule in some adventure about how ad hoc player groups could be somewhat formalised at some point.


Overall, I'm reminded of Master Corporal Erin Doyle, killed in combat in Afghanistan in 2008.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/erinintro.jpg

The first time I saw him, he was quite literally presiding over a meeting between two sets of patrol leaders—one captain and one sergeant—during a long and arduous hike in the deep outback of western Panjwai.

The captain and sergeant would make plans, then kind of quietly look up at Doyle. With a headshake and a grunt, he’d torpedo their idea and they’d go back to the map. This went on for half an hour or more, as gunfire and explosions rippled overhead. With his rank obscured by his gear—his battle rattle—I assumed he was a warrant officer or maybe the company sergeant major, based solely on the deference and respect he received from the other soldiers, many of whom I knew to be cynics of the first order.

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/index.php/2009/03/the-life-and-death-of-erin-doyle/

Getting back to T2K, in the past I've been in at least a few games (T2K in particular but also Recon, or wherever you have a rank structure) where the "rank game" has been played, even taken advantage of by some. I guess the attitude by some commander PCs is "it's good to be king" and they don't much listen to their NCOs or take their advice. That doesn't mean they're wrong or are bad leaders as such, and of course this may just be the way the PC is being played, not the way the player would otherwise personally act themselves. While I can't say that this necessarily applies to any game I'm currently in, I'm sure we've all been there. Hack, I'm sure I've played that officer who's excrement doesn't smell some time in the past!

Tony

[Adm.Lee]

I seem to recall in one of the adventures it kind of suggests that when the PCs get back home, they are kept together because they are proven to function as a team. This gives what is probably an ad hoc unit a more permanent arrangement. (I thought this was laid out in "Going Home" but I can't find it now.)

My gut tells me it's in Urban guerrilla, but it could easily be Armies of the night or Kidnapped, or one of the other American modules.

[Abbott Shaull]

My gut tells me it's in Urban guerrilla, but it could easily be Armies of the night or Kidnapped, or one of the other American modules.

All three of them along win Lone Star/Red Star tried to hint that the team had previously served together in Europe for the most part. With many a new member or two pick up from here or there.

[waiting4something]

I guess all the Twilight 2000 books pretty much where special operation type adventures. Especially Kidnapped, Satellite Down, and the Last Submarine series. I mean Mediterranean Cruise is some straight up Navy SEAL shit y'all.:D

[Webstral]

I think everybody and his brother is going to have an interest in having the ability to conduct reconnaissance and sabotage. At the risk of constantly referring to my own work, folks who don’t have pre-war SO/LRS (special operations/long range surveillance) are going to develop them as time and resources allow.

Fort Huachuca builds its own LRS capability from the ground up using a handful of veterans from Europe, the Middle East, and Korea and USAF operators who make their way to southern Arizona after Albuquerque and Kirtland go south. The emphasis is on gathering information—hardly surprising for an MI command. Almost immediately, the trigger-pullers who run the training and operations program start agitating for an expanded role for LRS. MG Thomason refuses to authorize an expanded mission profile until 2000. Huachuca greatly benefits from having cadre and students from the USAF SO arrive on-post in the second half of 1998, courtesy of the collapse of civil order in Albuquerque and the Mexican invasion of New Mexico. Not everyone is going to have this luxury.

USCG First District in New England, for instance, has to make do with homegrown material. There are a few Marines and soldiers with some of the right experience available, but it would be impossible to compare this situation to having proper facilities and cadre. The Maritime Rifles develop a doctrine for reconnaissance based on small watercraft and waterborne infiltration. Here again, just getting to the point at which intelligence gathering can be conducted costs many lives. First District has an active interest in sabotage and assassination, but heavy losses have made the leadership leery of overreach with their sophomoric reconnaissance troops. Even during the raids on pirate strongholds in 1999 and 2000, the LRS types are used almost exclusively for information gathering. Not until the 2001 offensive against the UBF do the Guardians attempt to mix combat engineering and sabotage with reconnaissance.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, on the other hand, light infantry infiltration combined with assassination and combat engineering develops rather quickly. The nature of the terrain (heavily urbanized) works against large-scale infantry operations. Local combatants are forced to develop infiltration and counter-infiltration tactics rather quickly. Combat engineering grows from its roots of arson into a surprisingly sophisticated art form by early 2001. Local militias/police throughout the Bay Area have small groups who have accumulated the skills to move into enemy areas unobserved to attack caches of food, arms and ammunition, and other useful materials. The so-called “legitimate governments” have certain advantages in this area because they have some support from MilGov (principally US Navy) personnel who can show them how to employ explosives and booby traps effectively. However, the various gangs and warlords of the area are quick learners; whatever they lack in formal training they make up for in cunning, desperation, and keen powers of observation.

The Shogun maintains little in the way of LRS. His security comes from having his secret police in place throughout his realm and the constant and unpredictable movement of his motorized army, the Gunryo. Information about the outside world comes from EPW and the occasional merchant convoy.


Webstral

[Raellus]

Fort Huachuca builds its own LRS capability from the ground up using a handful of veterans from Europe, the Middle East, and Korea and USAF operators who make their way to southern Arizona after Albuquerque and Kirtland go south. The emphasis is on gathering information—hardly surprising for an MI command. Almost immediately, the trigger-pullers who run the training and operations program start agitating for an expanded role for LRS. MG Thomason refuses to authorize an expanded mission profile until 2000. Huachuca greatly benefits from having cadre and students from the USAF SO arrive on-post in the second half of 1998, courtesy of the collapse of civil order in Albuquerque and the Mexican invasion of New Mexico. Not everyone is going to have this luxury.

Web, don't apologize. It's helpful to show how some of our thinking here has been applied directly to a campaign setting and yours is top-notch.

I think that pretty much every theatre command or major long-term military cantonment area is going to set up some sort of RECONDO "school" or course to train small units in long-range patrolling and intelligence gathering. Without satellite or aerial recon, and with diminished SIGINT capabilities, long-range patrolling/recon is going to be every field commander's primary intelligence source. These units will not only sneak and peek, they will tap field telephone lines, snatch prisoners, ambush couriers, etc. In Vietnam, the NVA didn't use radios a whole lot so LRRPs and SOG recon teams were essential for collecting intelligence on enemy capabilities and intentions.

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.

[Abbott Shaull]

Web, don't apologize. It's helpful to show how some of our thinking here has been applied directly to a campaign setting and yours is top-notch.

I think that pretty much every theatre command or major long-term military cantonment area is going to set up some sort of RECONDO "school" or course to train small units in long-range patrolling and intelligence gathering. Without satellite or aerial recon, and with diminished SIGINT capabilities, long-range patrolling/recon is going to be every field commander's primary intelligence source. These units will not only sneak and peek, they will tap field telephone lines, snatch prisoners, ambush couriers, etc. In Vietnam, the NVA didn't use radios a whole lot so LRRPs and SOG recon teams were essential for collecting intelligence on enemy capabilities and intentions.

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.

Well the Spetznaz detachment that one find either the Free City of Krokow or the Black Mondana would qualify as one of these mobile recon units...

[helbent4]

To take this thinking one step further, I'll bet the Soviets are doing the same thing during the Twilight War. By the later years of WWII, the Soviets became masters of long-range scouting. I'm sure that the T2K Red Army would be creating it's own LRRP units. This could justify more frequent PC encounters with Soviet "commandos" without resorting to the somewhat cliche'd Spetznaz trope.

Rae,

Reconaissance was the cornerstone of Soviet military doctrine. During and after WWII, the Soviets built a large corps of Razvedchiki (reconnaissance scouts) or "Special Reconnaissance Troops", aside from the Okhotniki/Vysotniki of the Spetsnaz. Razvedchiki ("Raiders") gathered tactical intelligence, recovered documents and captured prisoners for interrogation during the Soviet-Afghan war. They were also the only Soviet troops trained in ambushes, and while I don't know if they would be exactly the same as LRRPs or LRS units, they probably would be by the end of the Twilight war.

Tony