kato13
09-10-2008, 05:00 AM
DeaconR 07-29-2008, 08:08 PM We now know that a lot of the computer tech ideas in the game were bs, right? So what would exist? I mean, not every satellite would have been knocked out, and clearly Milgov and Civgov have (one more than the other) long range communications capabilities. Certainly the RDF has enough viable ships to establish this. So let's say someone has a field laptop or a digital phone or something--can they use it?
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Raellus 07-29-2008, 08:44 PM I'm not a computer guys but I once heard on NPR that large-scale regional networks- say like India or the Middle East- are connected by large submarine fiber-optic cables. From what I remember hearing, sometimes those cables are accidentally severed (typhoon, dragged anchor, horny Sperm whale, etc.) and when that happens, that region is cut off from the rest of the world until the break can be found and repaired.
In T2K, one could assume that some of these cables would be intentionally severed. After the TDM, even accidentally severed cables could not be repaired and the internet as we know it would cease to exist. Perhaps smaller scale, local networks could continue to function.
As for Satellites, it's hard to say. I agree that ASATs and and hunter-killer sats wouldn't be numerous or effective enough to destroy all orbital coms relays. But, how much ground monitoring and "in-flight maintainance" do coms sats require? I'm sure that they would be neglected and perhaps this would degrade their performance and effectiveness.
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Nowhere Man 1966 07-29-2008, 10:45 PM Hmmm, in 1996/1997, I don't think you will have many wireless PC's or networks although I think wired networks would survive on a local level, most likely being maintained by MilGov, CivGov, New America (I can see St. Petersburg having one, would help in population tracking and control) or perhaps a well to do insular area if it is need for whatever reason. The internet, well, I think the internet of that time will be like it was in our time although you will not see as many ".su" or ".ru" domains, the same with Eastern Europe although they might allow a little more "freedom" (I can see Hungary) with the exception of East Germany.
Computer tech, well, in 1997, OTL, the newest processor for Intel machines would be the Pentium Pro and Pentium II. Clock speeds will be 233 and 266 with the 300 MHz coming out just before the nukes fly on Thanksgiving 1997. Come to think of it, I still use a Pentium II, 266. ;)
I'm assuming computer development follows OTL and it not accelerated or retarded due to the war.
Chuck M.
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-07-2008, 01:03 AM Wireless networks (Ethernet) didn't start until the late 90's if I recall correctly and aren't very useful for long distance communications.
Local Area Networks wouldn't be too hard to restore assuming you have working computers and software. It isn't hard to get 12 computers together with a switch or hub and create a simple LAN. However, I'm not sure it would be all that useful in post TDM.
Getting the internet or some form of communication via long distance is going to require widely available power unless you want to go wireless then i supposed microwave attena's are the other choice.
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newyorkronin 08-07-2008, 07:50 AM Eventually amateur radio operators can reestablish contact with each other and an elementary repeater network can be put in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioteletype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PACTOR
Secure messages can be encrypted in plaintext with programs like PGP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy
No certificate authority required. (The public key server may be wiped out in the nuke attack).
Scenario:
Officer A and Officer B generates a public-private key pair at a computer in their Kansas HQ. They carry each other's public key on USB Memory sticks. Officer A travels to NY and Officer B travels to LA.
Officer A types a message in his laptop or PDA using PGP. Officer A signs his message with some signature like, "Pass the Tabasco" and encrypts it with his own private key.
Officer A uses Officer B's public key to scramble the text message and the already-scrambled signature in a block of unintelligible text.
Officer A sends the message across the country via PACTOR. The message could be received at a mail server at a base in LA or Officer B could have his own PACTOR mobile base station that monitors PACTOR channels continuously. Or they can agree to send and monitor for messages at certain intervals. Or Officer A could keep re-sending a message until he received an acknowledgement code from Officer B.
Receipt:
Officer B in LA receives the message and decrypts it with his private key, which is protected by a password that exists only on Officer B's laptop (no central password server required, no need to contact Kansas HQ to authenticate anything). To see if the message is authentic, he uses Officer A's public key to decrypt "Pass the Tabasco." So even if someone records the text, they can't decrypt it.
The message will prove to be the real deal unless of course Officer A was captured and tortured into giving up the password for his private key. They can also agree to a duress code, so if they sign the message with, "Pass the Tabasco, PLEASE" the other end will know a gun is held to the sender's head.
If the laptop is destroyed, he can find another computer, reinstall PGP and plug in his private key and password to decrypt his incoming messages.
Another downside is, if either side loses their USB memory stick and there's no backup copy, the messages can never be decrypted. (Unless brute forced by some future quantum computer technology.)
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-07-2008, 11:50 AM Wireless networks (Ethernet) didn't start until the late 90's if I recall correctly and aren't very useful for long distance communications.
Local Area Networks wouldn't be too hard to restore assuming you have working computers and software. It isn't hard to get 12 computers together with a switch or hub and create a simple LAN. However, I'm not sure it would be all that useful in post TDM.
Getting the internet or some form of communication via long distance is going to require widely available power unless you want to go wireless then i supposed microwave attena's are the other choice.
Yeah, I was wondering when the first wireless networks got started. I know my first experience with them was in 2002, my buddy and I set up an 802.11b/g standard on 2400 Mc (or 2.4 GHz) for the office we work for then. We got good signals even several hundred feet away. Wired networks, we had one in the early 1980's when I was in high school. The computer lab had a set of TRS-80 Model III's hooked into a master Model III, later Model IV. The only downside is that if a terminal hit the reset button, the whole thing had to be rebooted to let the terminal back in. Still, it ran from a 5.25" floppy on a 48K (Model III) or a 64K (Model IV) machine plus you can print on the common printer so it was excellent for its time.
Chuck M.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-07-2008, 11:55 AM Eventually amateur radio operators can reestablish contact with each other and an elementary repeater network can be put in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioteletype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PACTOR
Secure messages can be encrypted in plaintext with programs like PGP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy
No certificate authority required. (The public key server may be wiped out in the nuke attack).
Scenario:
Officer A and Officer B generates a public-private key pair at a computer in their Kansas HQ. They carry each other's public key on USB Memory sticks. Officer A travels to NY and Officer B travels to LA.
Officer A types a message in his laptop or PDA using PGP. Officer A signs his message with some signature like, "Pass the Tabasco" and encrypts it with his own private key.
Officer A uses Officer B's public key to scramble the text message and the already-scrambled signature in a block of unintelligible text.
Officer A sends the message across the country via PACTOR. The message could be received at a mail server at a base in LA or Officer B could have his own PACTOR mobile base station that monitors PACTOR channels continuously. Or they can agree to send and monitor for messages at certain intervals. Or Officer A could keep re-sending a message until he received an acknowledgement code from Officer B.
Receipt:
Officer B in LA receives the message and decrypts it with his private key, which is protected by a password that exists only on Officer B's laptop (no central password server required, no need to contact Kansas HQ to authenticate anything). To see if the message is authentic, he uses Officer A's public key to decrypt "Pass the Tabasco." So even if someone records the text, they can't decrypt it.
The message will prove to be the real deal unless of course Officer A was captured and tortured into giving up the password for his private key. They can also agree to a duress code, so if they sign the message with, "Pass the Tabasco, PLEASE" the other end will know a gun is held to the sender's head.
If the laptop is destroyed, he can find another computer, reinstall PGP and plug in his private key and password to decrypt his incoming messages.
Another downside is, if either side loses their USB memory stick and there's no backup copy, the messages can never be decrypted. (Unless brute forced by some future quantum computer technology.)
True, I'm a ham radio operator myself so if I survived, I would most likely be involved someway. USB sticks, well in 1997, USB was new so I wonder if they had USB sticks then? Come to think of it, if James Bond had one, it would have made his life much easier. :D
Chuck M.
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newyorkronin 08-07-2008, 09:36 PM Whoops! I sometimes post on the Twilight 2013 board and get my Tech Levels mixed up, Traveller-style. A PGP key itself is just a small block of text, maybe 5 kB, easily stored on a floppy. The PGP program itself is 18 Mb IIRC. Pentium laptops at 300-700 Mhz range were around. Whether enough survived the EMP effect is another matter.
True, I'm a ham radio operator myself so if I survived, I would most likely be involved someway. USB sticks, well in 1997, USB was new so I wonder if they had USB sticks then? Come to think of it, if James Bond had one, it would have made his life much easier. :D
Chuck M.
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-09-2008, 10:59 PM Rebuilding the communications network faces all the same challenges as rebuilding the petroleum network. You need skilled workers, power, and resources.
Just because someone works in IT doesn't mean they can help restore services after TDM. I use my self as an example.
I could help restore a LAN, put together computers from parts, troubleshoot individual switches, etc. But I'm not a computer engineer, I don't understand things at a protocal or driver level. These are the people you need to get things running again. Someone who can write new code if needed.
Im guessing but in post TDM settlements the 1st thing to work on restoring would be plain old telephone service (POTS). If you can restore phone service then you can restore internet as well.
From a gameplay point of view, I think surviving military forces would want to restore wireless communications to coordinate with far flung units.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-10-2008, 10:32 AM Rebuilding the communications network faces all the same challenges as rebuilding the petroleum network. You need skilled workers, power, and resources.
Just because someone works in IT doesn't mean they can help restore services after TDM. I use my self as an example.
I could help restore a LAN, put together computers from parts, troubleshoot individual switches, etc. But I'm not a computer engineer, I don't understand things at a protocal or driver level. These are the people you need to get things running again. Someone who can write new code if needed.
Im guessing but in post TDM settlements the 1st thing to work on restoring would be plain old telephone service (POTS). If you can restore phone service then you can restore internet as well.
From a gameplay point of view, I think surviving military forces would want to restore wireless communications to coordinate with far flung units.
You would also need to make new hardware, but I'm sure there will be plenty of it left over, even with some of the EMP. Computerwise, you would probably need to use the existing software that was made pre-war and during the war before the nukes flew, at least it would be a start. I'm afraid new code will have to wait until you can gather enough of what's left of the software engineers together and/or as they show up out of the woodwork. Still I think there would be enough existing stuff where you can get something going and if you can make new hardware for existing protocols. Still, for a 2000 to 2010 world, your computer technology will still be "retarded" at 1995/97 levels but it's a start.
Hmmm, well, assuming things went the same as OTL up to Thanksgiving 1997, Windows 95 would be the defacto PC operation system with NT3.5 and 4.0 for networks. Novell was a huge network standard at that time and IIRC, they were way ahead of Microsoft. Macs, well, I'm not familiar with their OS so I'll let that hang. Let's see, IIRC, IBM's OS/2 was still hanging around. Of course you have UNIX as well.
Still I think we have to stick with a simple system at first and getting a regular telephone system up along with radio communications would be first priority. Any computers around will most likely be "stand alone" and program distribution will most like by via "sneakernet" with people manually carrying floppies and CD's around.
Chuck M.
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GOF 08-11-2008, 03:15 AM Dont forget about all the older radio and telephone gear, the stuff with valves or early transistors. Its more resistant to emp and has better chance of surviving in working condition. raid the junk stores and 2nd hand stores or look for those old electronics books, they had pretty simple stuff to make and showed how to repair some of it
It woint be pretty and it wont have any inbuilt security but it'll work The electronics hobby aint what it was back in the 70s and 80s but those guys would build their own amps & EQs for their stereos or gear like LED message displays
if you cant find anyone doing that sort of stuff then liook for guys who build there own model railways, they usually got minor electronics & electrical skill and have some know how on building sdome of that stuff an they dont always rely o the modern gear to do it
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-11-2008, 12:38 PM Dont forget about all the older radio and telephone gear, the stuff with valves or early transistors. Its more resistant to emp and has better chance of surviving in working condition. raid the junk stores and 2nd hand stores or look for those old electronics books, they had pretty simple stuff to make and showed how to repair some of it
It woint be pretty and it wont have any inbuilt security but it'll work The electronics hobby aint what it was back in the 70s and 80s but those guys would build their own amps & EQs for their stereos or gear like LED message displays
if you cant find anyone doing that sort of stuff then liook for guys who build there own model railways, they usually got minor electronics & electrical skill and have some know how on building sdome of that stuff an they dont always rely o the modern gear to do it
It's a shame you don't see much of that anymore. I like to tinker but I do wish I had more time and money, my dream is to get my 1970 Zenith Chromacolor working again. Even with the switchover to HDTV, I could shove a converter box on it and I'm good to go. Come to think of it, the first HDTV broadcast was from Washington DC, August 6th, 1996, with the Twilight War, I'm sure HDTV would go down the toilet and when somebody, somewhere gets a TV station(s) running again, we will most likely be stuck with the old NTSC (U.S.) system for many years to come, with recovery, I think HDTV will be sent down the commode for 50 years or more.
I think your transistor radios would have a good chance of surviving, i'm sure that mega EMP pulse from the Starfish test in 1962 hardly killed any transistor radios at all in Hawaii, even then, they were common. BTW, it would be kind of ironic in the Twilight World to find something like a novelty AM radio in a Heinz Ketchup bottle, if there are no other radios around, it would be a very valuable resource to have. My uncle gave me one last week, it was made in 1980 in Hong Kong and has 6 discrete transistors and only gets AM. I also have an 8 transistor Magnavox, AM only, for around 1965, that "Maggie" really pulls them in.
It really burned my in the TV show, "Jericho," when they couldn't find any radio at all, I'm sure if you had too, you can scrounge for old tube and transistor radios that would still work. Even with only a novelty ketchup bottle radio, it would be worth more than gold, they could tune into something and hopefully know what's going on. I also have a Patrolman SW-60 with discrete transistors, it had shortwave from 6 to 18 Mc along with VHF Lo (30 - 50 Mc), VHF-Air/Hi (108 - 174 Mc) and UHF (450 - 512 Mc), even though it is obsolete compared to scanners, it is a good radio to tune around with and anyone can use, most suburban and rural emergency services still use those old bands and the military still uses VHF-Lo.
Chuck M.
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Headquarters 08-11-2008, 03:04 PM It's a shame you don't see much of that anymore. I like to tinker but I do wish I had more time and money, my dream is to get my 1970 Zenith Chromacolor working again. Even with the switchover to HDTV, I could shove a converter box on it and I'm good to go. Come to think of it, the first HDTV broadcast was from Washington DC, August 6th, 1996, with the Twilight War, I'm sure HDTV would go down the toilet and when somebody, somewhere gets a TV station(s) running again, we will most likely be stuck with the old NTSC (U.S.) system for many years to come, with recovery, I think HDTV will be sent down the commode for 50 years or more.
I think your transistor radios would have a good chance of surviving, i'm sure that mega EMP pulse from the Starfish test in 1962 hardly killed any transistor radios at all in Hawaii, even then, they were common. BTW, it would be kind of ironic in the Twilight World to find something like a novelty AM radio in a Heinz Ketchup bottle, if there are no other radios around, it would be a very valuable resource to have. My uncle gave me one last week, it was made in 1980 in Hong Kong and has 6 discrete transistors and only gets AM. I also have an 8 transistor Magnavox, AM only, for around 1965, that "Maggie" really pulls them in.
It really burned my in the TV show, "Jericho," when they couldn't find any radio at all, I'm sure if you had too, you can scrounge for old tube and transistor radios that would still work. Even with only a novelty ketchup bottle radio, it would be worth more than gold, they could tune into something and hopefully know what's going on. I also have a Patrolman SW-60 with discrete transistors, it had shortwave from 6 to 18 Mc along with VHF Lo (30 - 50 Mc), VHF-Air/Hi (108 - 174 Mc) and UHF (450 - 512 Mc), even though it is obsolete compared to scanners, it is a good radio to tune around with and anyone can use, most suburban and rural emergency services still use those old bands and the military still uses VHF-Lo.
Chuck M.
The first HDTV broadcast (in canon) is long awaited and much debated when it starts it is live coverage of the nuke exchange and within minutes all screens go black..
Withe the amount of electronic gadgets out there it seem improbable that all of it would burn out from EMP..But I hear tell of new and totally efficient EMP weapons out there ..HAARM or some such
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-12-2008, 12:16 AM I was thinking about this at work today. Basically running some ideas around in my head. About 2 years ago I posted a short work on a special unit whose job was to run a AM radio station and act as a radio relay team as well. The team is sited on one of the higher mountains in the Bay Area and listen for various communications from around the South Bay.
It got me wondering, what if we have an encampment in Alameda NAS and they want to talk with an encampment at Moffet Field, NAS. How would it get done.
1. Water borne courier would be one way.
2. Radio is an obvious one, they probably arent more than 30 miles apart
in a straight line.
3. Telephone service would tough it would require restoring service of some
kind to all the links between site. We are talking a lot of cities in between.
4. Microwave attena would work because I dont think they have direct line of sight but I could be wrong.
Anyway, there are plenty of challenges. Each site certainly could start by restoring local telephone service. I shouldnt be too hard to get some older phones together and create a simple network.
I was even thinking a good prize to be found in one of the strategic caches would be 500-1000 surplus phones. You know those old black or green ones from ATT back in the 70s that if you dropped them on the floor the guy down the street could hear it. :) They would survive EMP and work forever!
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-12-2008, 10:24 AM I was thinking about this at work today. Basically running some ideas around in my head. About 2 years ago I posted a short work on a special unit whose job was to run a AM radio station and act as a radio relay team as well. The team is sited on one of the higher mountains in the Bay Area and listen for various communications from around the South Bay.
It got me wondering, what if we have an encampment in Alameda NAS and they want to talk with an encampment at Moffet Field, NAS. How would it get done.
1. Water borne courier would be one way.
2. Radio is an obvious one, they probably arent more than 30 miles apart
in a straight line.
3. Telephone service would tough it would require restoring service of some
kind to all the links between site. We are talking a lot of cities in between.
4. Microwave attena would work because I dont think they have direct line of sight but I could be wrong.
Anyway, there are plenty of challenges. Each site certainly could start by restoring local telephone service. I shouldnt be too hard to get some older phones together and create a simple network.
I was even thinking a good prize to be found in one of the strategic caches would be 500-1000 surplus phones. You know those old black or green ones from ATT back in the 70s that if you dropped them on the floor the guy down the street could hear it. :) They would survive EMP and work forever!
30 miles, microwave should work, that is about the limit for microwaves to be used because they do follow the curvature of the Earth for some distance. I know in the late 1940's and 1950's, before we had a transcontinental coax for television in place, TV networks and telephone used microwave relay stations placed at 30 mile intervals and were used to reach stations in remote areas. There are time as well where weather conditions can make the signal go further or if you up the power. IIRC, there is a microwave link to Cuba that is used for telephones that we put up in the 1950's and is still in use for Cuban families here to call their relatives in Castro's Cuba. Sometimes the signal is iffy though.
Myself, I've talked on my VHF amateur walkie talkie to Canada standing at the edge of Lake Erie. I only had the basic rubber duck antenna and putting out low power at 1 watt but 50 miles cross the lake and 20 miles or so inland, they heard me clear as a bell.
Chuck M.
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Rogue765 08-13-2008, 01:53 AM You can also break out the CB radio. Normally CB radio only has a range of about 4 miles, but if you use a larger antenna, operate on greater power, "shoot skip" and operate on higher or lower frequencies, you can communicate for hundreds or even thousands of miles. The last three techniques are illegal, but I doubt the FCC will be doing much prosecuting after WW3 :D .
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-13-2008, 10:13 AM You can also break out the CB radio. Normally CB radio only has a range of about 4 miles, but if you use a larger antenna, operate on greater power, "shoot skip" and operate on higher or lower frequencies, you can communicate for hundreds or even thousands of miles. The last three techniques are illegal, but I doubt the FCC will be doing much prosecuting after WW3 :D .
True, I used to run CB and gotten as far as Mexico and California while running "barefoot" (legal power). Myself, I've gotten 10 miles usually, I was able to hit Ambridge, PA from here and used to chat with a group called "The River Rats." One interesting CB QSO (contact) I had was with a CBer in an airplane over the Ohio River.
Amateur radio, in the 2 meter band, 14 - 148 Mc, on 1 watt low power into a 5/8ths wave magmount antenna, I can get out to 10 or 15 miles, if I kick it up to 2.5 to 6 watts (depending if I feed it 7.2 to 13.8 volts), I can get out a good 50 miles or so. I've talked to Ohio that way.
Chuck M
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pmulcahy 08-13-2008, 12:41 PM True, I used to run CB and gotten as far as Mexico and California while running "barefoot" (legal power). Myself, I've gotten 10 miles usually, I was able to hit Ambridge, PA from here and used to chat with a group called "The River Rats." One interesting CB QSO (contact) I had was with a CBer in an airplane over the Ohio River.
Amateur radio, in the 2 meter band, 14 - 148 Mc, on 1 watt low power into a 5/8ths wave magmount antenna, I can get out to 10 or 15 miles, if I kick it up to 2.5 to 6 watts (depending if I feed it 7.2 to 13.8 volts), I can get out a good 50 miles or so. I've talked to Ohio that way.
Chuck M
AM-band radios are good for long-range, too. When I was stationed in Korea using a military AM radio (can't remember the model -- I'll have to wrack my brain for that), I was able to talk to Schofield Barracks in Hawaii from Camp Casey in Korea. IIRC, that's roughly 3500 miles (about 5635 km). Of course, that was from the DTOC with some seriously-large antennas. The radios at the SCF were capable of even longer ranges.
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DeaconR 08-13-2008, 06:07 PM So my general assessment is that it wouldn't be that big a deal as the earlier game suggests?
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-13-2008, 06:58 PM So my general assessment is that it wouldn't be that big a deal as the earlier game suggests?
Only if you assume there are some surviving electronics. I think both versions paint a picture that virutually nothing electronic from a hand held calculator or a power station has survived.
Mabye its safe to say that by 2001 only MilGov has the few surviving, reliable, communication networks of global reach.
What do u all think?
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-14-2008, 11:25 AM AM-band radios are good for long-range, too. When I was stationed in Korea using a military AM radio (can't remember the model -- I'll have to wrack my brain for that), I was able to talk to Schofield Barracks in Hawaii from Camp Casey in Korea. IIRC, that's roughly 3500 miles (about 5635 km). Of course, that was from the DTOC with some seriously-large antennas. The radios at the SCF were capable of even longer ranges.
BTW, my father was stationed at Camp Casey, he was there from 1955/56 I think.
Do you remember the frequency(ies) you used? I know some amateur radio operators use AM mode on the bands too, usually on 160 meters (1800 - 2000 kc, just above the AM radio band) and 75/80 meters (3500 - 4000 kc). They can get some good distance with that, especially on 80 meters. Regular AM stations, 540 -1700 kc, I've picked up Berkeley, CA here in Pittsburgh along with Anguila in the West Indies. I have an old 8 transistor Magnavox from 1965, I pulled in a 1000 watt station from Texas with it, for it's size, the "Maggie" is a good performer.
I think with the dearth of broadcasting in Twilight, you might be able to cover more distance with less power since the AM bands are less crowded. In 1920, KDKA-AM put out only 100 watts, yet they were heard in Australia and Finland. I think even 5000 watts would be able to do in Twilight as to what 50,000 watts does now. Come to think of it, when I can't sleep, if I listen to Art Bell/George Noory out of Youngstown, Ohio on WKBN, 570 kc, I sometimes pick up Radio Reloj (Radio Clock, their version of CNN) from Cuba and many times, they "walk over" WKBN. There are people who do use long (Beveredge) antennas to pull in AM (Mediumwave) and longwave stations, some of those are thousands of feet long.
Chuck M.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-14-2008, 11:32 AM Only if you assume there are some surviving electronics. I think both versions paint a picture that virutually nothing electronic from a hand held calculator or a power station has survived.
Mabye its safe to say that by 2001 only MilGov has the few surviving, reliable, communication networks of global reach.
What do u all think?
I think the EMP threat is overrated. I'm not saying it isn't a threat, but I refuse to think that EVERY radio, car, computer, etc., was fried. I think if your radio is connected to an antenna and/or power source, same with computer, etc., then it stands a fair chance of being fried but if you have a transistor radio on the shelf, external antenna folded in all the way it should be safe. Same if you have a computer not connected to anything. Say if EMP fries my computer I'm using now, I have a box next to me as backup, not connected to anything, I swap it and continue on. Same with computer chips, if there is a chip on the shelf of "Bob's Electronic Store" not connected to anything, it should be safe, especially if they are in anti-static package.
MilGov, I think they would have an edge although I think CivGov and others could catch up if they pool their resources right and gather people together like people who work (or worked) in broadcasts, amateur radio operators and so on. It's like for example, if you want room, board, healthcare (whatever you have) and a little "walking around" money, if you a ham radio operator, the militia, CivGov, whatever might want to press you into service for radio repair and comms.
Chuck M.
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pmulcahy 08-14-2008, 01:16 PM I think the EMP threat is overrated. I'm not saying it isn't a threat, but I refuse to think that EVERY radio, car, computer, etc., was fried. I think if your radio is connected to an antenna and/or power source, same with computer, etc., then it stands a fair chance of being fried but if you have a transistor radio on the shelf, external antenna folded in all the way it should be safe.
Chuck M.
SOP in the Army is that if word is received of impending nuclear attack (assuming you are otherwise protected from the blast) is to immediately turn off all radios and electronics, remove and stow the antennas, and kill the vehicle engines.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-15-2008, 03:35 PM SOP in the Army is that if word is received of impending nuclear attack (assuming you are otherwise protected from the blast) is to immediately turn off all radios and electronics, remove and stow the antennas, and kill the vehicle engines.
Very good advice, that's even mentioned in amateur radio magazines too. Although this was only a movie, in "Broken Arrow" with Christian Slater and John Travolta, Travolta (the bad guy) ordered his group to cut the Humvee's engine since he set off one bomb to protect it from EMP. I'm not too familiar but would an Army Humvee have any electrical parts that can be affected, IIRC, they run on diesel so there is no need for an electrical system and what electrical system there is would contain parts that are hardy and EMP resistant. BTW, I think Ford did such a study in 1967 on how electrical fields could affect engines but it was more in response to reports of UFO's shutting off cars, I have a writeup about it in an old "Popular Mechanics" magazine.
Chuck M.
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Raellus 07-29-2008, 08:44 PM I'm not a computer guys but I once heard on NPR that large-scale regional networks- say like India or the Middle East- are connected by large submarine fiber-optic cables. From what I remember hearing, sometimes those cables are accidentally severed (typhoon, dragged anchor, horny Sperm whale, etc.) and when that happens, that region is cut off from the rest of the world until the break can be found and repaired.
In T2K, one could assume that some of these cables would be intentionally severed. After the TDM, even accidentally severed cables could not be repaired and the internet as we know it would cease to exist. Perhaps smaller scale, local networks could continue to function.
As for Satellites, it's hard to say. I agree that ASATs and and hunter-killer sats wouldn't be numerous or effective enough to destroy all orbital coms relays. But, how much ground monitoring and "in-flight maintainance" do coms sats require? I'm sure that they would be neglected and perhaps this would degrade their performance and effectiveness.
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Nowhere Man 1966 07-29-2008, 10:45 PM Hmmm, in 1996/1997, I don't think you will have many wireless PC's or networks although I think wired networks would survive on a local level, most likely being maintained by MilGov, CivGov, New America (I can see St. Petersburg having one, would help in population tracking and control) or perhaps a well to do insular area if it is need for whatever reason. The internet, well, I think the internet of that time will be like it was in our time although you will not see as many ".su" or ".ru" domains, the same with Eastern Europe although they might allow a little more "freedom" (I can see Hungary) with the exception of East Germany.
Computer tech, well, in 1997, OTL, the newest processor for Intel machines would be the Pentium Pro and Pentium II. Clock speeds will be 233 and 266 with the 300 MHz coming out just before the nukes fly on Thanksgiving 1997. Come to think of it, I still use a Pentium II, 266. ;)
I'm assuming computer development follows OTL and it not accelerated or retarded due to the war.
Chuck M.
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-07-2008, 01:03 AM Wireless networks (Ethernet) didn't start until the late 90's if I recall correctly and aren't very useful for long distance communications.
Local Area Networks wouldn't be too hard to restore assuming you have working computers and software. It isn't hard to get 12 computers together with a switch or hub and create a simple LAN. However, I'm not sure it would be all that useful in post TDM.
Getting the internet or some form of communication via long distance is going to require widely available power unless you want to go wireless then i supposed microwave attena's are the other choice.
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newyorkronin 08-07-2008, 07:50 AM Eventually amateur radio operators can reestablish contact with each other and an elementary repeater network can be put in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioteletype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PACTOR
Secure messages can be encrypted in plaintext with programs like PGP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy
No certificate authority required. (The public key server may be wiped out in the nuke attack).
Scenario:
Officer A and Officer B generates a public-private key pair at a computer in their Kansas HQ. They carry each other's public key on USB Memory sticks. Officer A travels to NY and Officer B travels to LA.
Officer A types a message in his laptop or PDA using PGP. Officer A signs his message with some signature like, "Pass the Tabasco" and encrypts it with his own private key.
Officer A uses Officer B's public key to scramble the text message and the already-scrambled signature in a block of unintelligible text.
Officer A sends the message across the country via PACTOR. The message could be received at a mail server at a base in LA or Officer B could have his own PACTOR mobile base station that monitors PACTOR channels continuously. Or they can agree to send and monitor for messages at certain intervals. Or Officer A could keep re-sending a message until he received an acknowledgement code from Officer B.
Receipt:
Officer B in LA receives the message and decrypts it with his private key, which is protected by a password that exists only on Officer B's laptop (no central password server required, no need to contact Kansas HQ to authenticate anything). To see if the message is authentic, he uses Officer A's public key to decrypt "Pass the Tabasco." So even if someone records the text, they can't decrypt it.
The message will prove to be the real deal unless of course Officer A was captured and tortured into giving up the password for his private key. They can also agree to a duress code, so if they sign the message with, "Pass the Tabasco, PLEASE" the other end will know a gun is held to the sender's head.
If the laptop is destroyed, he can find another computer, reinstall PGP and plug in his private key and password to decrypt his incoming messages.
Another downside is, if either side loses their USB memory stick and there's no backup copy, the messages can never be decrypted. (Unless brute forced by some future quantum computer technology.)
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-07-2008, 11:50 AM Wireless networks (Ethernet) didn't start until the late 90's if I recall correctly and aren't very useful for long distance communications.
Local Area Networks wouldn't be too hard to restore assuming you have working computers and software. It isn't hard to get 12 computers together with a switch or hub and create a simple LAN. However, I'm not sure it would be all that useful in post TDM.
Getting the internet or some form of communication via long distance is going to require widely available power unless you want to go wireless then i supposed microwave attena's are the other choice.
Yeah, I was wondering when the first wireless networks got started. I know my first experience with them was in 2002, my buddy and I set up an 802.11b/g standard on 2400 Mc (or 2.4 GHz) for the office we work for then. We got good signals even several hundred feet away. Wired networks, we had one in the early 1980's when I was in high school. The computer lab had a set of TRS-80 Model III's hooked into a master Model III, later Model IV. The only downside is that if a terminal hit the reset button, the whole thing had to be rebooted to let the terminal back in. Still, it ran from a 5.25" floppy on a 48K (Model III) or a 64K (Model IV) machine plus you can print on the common printer so it was excellent for its time.
Chuck M.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-07-2008, 11:55 AM Eventually amateur radio operators can reestablish contact with each other and an elementary repeater network can be put in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioteletype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PACTOR
Secure messages can be encrypted in plaintext with programs like PGP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy
No certificate authority required. (The public key server may be wiped out in the nuke attack).
Scenario:
Officer A and Officer B generates a public-private key pair at a computer in their Kansas HQ. They carry each other's public key on USB Memory sticks. Officer A travels to NY and Officer B travels to LA.
Officer A types a message in his laptop or PDA using PGP. Officer A signs his message with some signature like, "Pass the Tabasco" and encrypts it with his own private key.
Officer A uses Officer B's public key to scramble the text message and the already-scrambled signature in a block of unintelligible text.
Officer A sends the message across the country via PACTOR. The message could be received at a mail server at a base in LA or Officer B could have his own PACTOR mobile base station that monitors PACTOR channels continuously. Or they can agree to send and monitor for messages at certain intervals. Or Officer A could keep re-sending a message until he received an acknowledgement code from Officer B.
Receipt:
Officer B in LA receives the message and decrypts it with his private key, which is protected by a password that exists only on Officer B's laptop (no central password server required, no need to contact Kansas HQ to authenticate anything). To see if the message is authentic, he uses Officer A's public key to decrypt "Pass the Tabasco." So even if someone records the text, they can't decrypt it.
The message will prove to be the real deal unless of course Officer A was captured and tortured into giving up the password for his private key. They can also agree to a duress code, so if they sign the message with, "Pass the Tabasco, PLEASE" the other end will know a gun is held to the sender's head.
If the laptop is destroyed, he can find another computer, reinstall PGP and plug in his private key and password to decrypt his incoming messages.
Another downside is, if either side loses their USB memory stick and there's no backup copy, the messages can never be decrypted. (Unless brute forced by some future quantum computer technology.)
True, I'm a ham radio operator myself so if I survived, I would most likely be involved someway. USB sticks, well in 1997, USB was new so I wonder if they had USB sticks then? Come to think of it, if James Bond had one, it would have made his life much easier. :D
Chuck M.
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newyorkronin 08-07-2008, 09:36 PM Whoops! I sometimes post on the Twilight 2013 board and get my Tech Levels mixed up, Traveller-style. A PGP key itself is just a small block of text, maybe 5 kB, easily stored on a floppy. The PGP program itself is 18 Mb IIRC. Pentium laptops at 300-700 Mhz range were around. Whether enough survived the EMP effect is another matter.
True, I'm a ham radio operator myself so if I survived, I would most likely be involved someway. USB sticks, well in 1997, USB was new so I wonder if they had USB sticks then? Come to think of it, if James Bond had one, it would have made his life much easier. :D
Chuck M.
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-09-2008, 10:59 PM Rebuilding the communications network faces all the same challenges as rebuilding the petroleum network. You need skilled workers, power, and resources.
Just because someone works in IT doesn't mean they can help restore services after TDM. I use my self as an example.
I could help restore a LAN, put together computers from parts, troubleshoot individual switches, etc. But I'm not a computer engineer, I don't understand things at a protocal or driver level. These are the people you need to get things running again. Someone who can write new code if needed.
Im guessing but in post TDM settlements the 1st thing to work on restoring would be plain old telephone service (POTS). If you can restore phone service then you can restore internet as well.
From a gameplay point of view, I think surviving military forces would want to restore wireless communications to coordinate with far flung units.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-10-2008, 10:32 AM Rebuilding the communications network faces all the same challenges as rebuilding the petroleum network. You need skilled workers, power, and resources.
Just because someone works in IT doesn't mean they can help restore services after TDM. I use my self as an example.
I could help restore a LAN, put together computers from parts, troubleshoot individual switches, etc. But I'm not a computer engineer, I don't understand things at a protocal or driver level. These are the people you need to get things running again. Someone who can write new code if needed.
Im guessing but in post TDM settlements the 1st thing to work on restoring would be plain old telephone service (POTS). If you can restore phone service then you can restore internet as well.
From a gameplay point of view, I think surviving military forces would want to restore wireless communications to coordinate with far flung units.
You would also need to make new hardware, but I'm sure there will be plenty of it left over, even with some of the EMP. Computerwise, you would probably need to use the existing software that was made pre-war and during the war before the nukes flew, at least it would be a start. I'm afraid new code will have to wait until you can gather enough of what's left of the software engineers together and/or as they show up out of the woodwork. Still I think there would be enough existing stuff where you can get something going and if you can make new hardware for existing protocols. Still, for a 2000 to 2010 world, your computer technology will still be "retarded" at 1995/97 levels but it's a start.
Hmmm, well, assuming things went the same as OTL up to Thanksgiving 1997, Windows 95 would be the defacto PC operation system with NT3.5 and 4.0 for networks. Novell was a huge network standard at that time and IIRC, they were way ahead of Microsoft. Macs, well, I'm not familiar with their OS so I'll let that hang. Let's see, IIRC, IBM's OS/2 was still hanging around. Of course you have UNIX as well.
Still I think we have to stick with a simple system at first and getting a regular telephone system up along with radio communications would be first priority. Any computers around will most likely be "stand alone" and program distribution will most like by via "sneakernet" with people manually carrying floppies and CD's around.
Chuck M.
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GOF 08-11-2008, 03:15 AM Dont forget about all the older radio and telephone gear, the stuff with valves or early transistors. Its more resistant to emp and has better chance of surviving in working condition. raid the junk stores and 2nd hand stores or look for those old electronics books, they had pretty simple stuff to make and showed how to repair some of it
It woint be pretty and it wont have any inbuilt security but it'll work The electronics hobby aint what it was back in the 70s and 80s but those guys would build their own amps & EQs for their stereos or gear like LED message displays
if you cant find anyone doing that sort of stuff then liook for guys who build there own model railways, they usually got minor electronics & electrical skill and have some know how on building sdome of that stuff an they dont always rely o the modern gear to do it
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-11-2008, 12:38 PM Dont forget about all the older radio and telephone gear, the stuff with valves or early transistors. Its more resistant to emp and has better chance of surviving in working condition. raid the junk stores and 2nd hand stores or look for those old electronics books, they had pretty simple stuff to make and showed how to repair some of it
It woint be pretty and it wont have any inbuilt security but it'll work The electronics hobby aint what it was back in the 70s and 80s but those guys would build their own amps & EQs for their stereos or gear like LED message displays
if you cant find anyone doing that sort of stuff then liook for guys who build there own model railways, they usually got minor electronics & electrical skill and have some know how on building sdome of that stuff an they dont always rely o the modern gear to do it
It's a shame you don't see much of that anymore. I like to tinker but I do wish I had more time and money, my dream is to get my 1970 Zenith Chromacolor working again. Even with the switchover to HDTV, I could shove a converter box on it and I'm good to go. Come to think of it, the first HDTV broadcast was from Washington DC, August 6th, 1996, with the Twilight War, I'm sure HDTV would go down the toilet and when somebody, somewhere gets a TV station(s) running again, we will most likely be stuck with the old NTSC (U.S.) system for many years to come, with recovery, I think HDTV will be sent down the commode for 50 years or more.
I think your transistor radios would have a good chance of surviving, i'm sure that mega EMP pulse from the Starfish test in 1962 hardly killed any transistor radios at all in Hawaii, even then, they were common. BTW, it would be kind of ironic in the Twilight World to find something like a novelty AM radio in a Heinz Ketchup bottle, if there are no other radios around, it would be a very valuable resource to have. My uncle gave me one last week, it was made in 1980 in Hong Kong and has 6 discrete transistors and only gets AM. I also have an 8 transistor Magnavox, AM only, for around 1965, that "Maggie" really pulls them in.
It really burned my in the TV show, "Jericho," when they couldn't find any radio at all, I'm sure if you had too, you can scrounge for old tube and transistor radios that would still work. Even with only a novelty ketchup bottle radio, it would be worth more than gold, they could tune into something and hopefully know what's going on. I also have a Patrolman SW-60 with discrete transistors, it had shortwave from 6 to 18 Mc along with VHF Lo (30 - 50 Mc), VHF-Air/Hi (108 - 174 Mc) and UHF (450 - 512 Mc), even though it is obsolete compared to scanners, it is a good radio to tune around with and anyone can use, most suburban and rural emergency services still use those old bands and the military still uses VHF-Lo.
Chuck M.
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Headquarters 08-11-2008, 03:04 PM It's a shame you don't see much of that anymore. I like to tinker but I do wish I had more time and money, my dream is to get my 1970 Zenith Chromacolor working again. Even with the switchover to HDTV, I could shove a converter box on it and I'm good to go. Come to think of it, the first HDTV broadcast was from Washington DC, August 6th, 1996, with the Twilight War, I'm sure HDTV would go down the toilet and when somebody, somewhere gets a TV station(s) running again, we will most likely be stuck with the old NTSC (U.S.) system for many years to come, with recovery, I think HDTV will be sent down the commode for 50 years or more.
I think your transistor radios would have a good chance of surviving, i'm sure that mega EMP pulse from the Starfish test in 1962 hardly killed any transistor radios at all in Hawaii, even then, they were common. BTW, it would be kind of ironic in the Twilight World to find something like a novelty AM radio in a Heinz Ketchup bottle, if there are no other radios around, it would be a very valuable resource to have. My uncle gave me one last week, it was made in 1980 in Hong Kong and has 6 discrete transistors and only gets AM. I also have an 8 transistor Magnavox, AM only, for around 1965, that "Maggie" really pulls them in.
It really burned my in the TV show, "Jericho," when they couldn't find any radio at all, I'm sure if you had too, you can scrounge for old tube and transistor radios that would still work. Even with only a novelty ketchup bottle radio, it would be worth more than gold, they could tune into something and hopefully know what's going on. I also have a Patrolman SW-60 with discrete transistors, it had shortwave from 6 to 18 Mc along with VHF Lo (30 - 50 Mc), VHF-Air/Hi (108 - 174 Mc) and UHF (450 - 512 Mc), even though it is obsolete compared to scanners, it is a good radio to tune around with and anyone can use, most suburban and rural emergency services still use those old bands and the military still uses VHF-Lo.
Chuck M.
The first HDTV broadcast (in canon) is long awaited and much debated when it starts it is live coverage of the nuke exchange and within minutes all screens go black..
Withe the amount of electronic gadgets out there it seem improbable that all of it would burn out from EMP..But I hear tell of new and totally efficient EMP weapons out there ..HAARM or some such
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-12-2008, 12:16 AM I was thinking about this at work today. Basically running some ideas around in my head. About 2 years ago I posted a short work on a special unit whose job was to run a AM radio station and act as a radio relay team as well. The team is sited on one of the higher mountains in the Bay Area and listen for various communications from around the South Bay.
It got me wondering, what if we have an encampment in Alameda NAS and they want to talk with an encampment at Moffet Field, NAS. How would it get done.
1. Water borne courier would be one way.
2. Radio is an obvious one, they probably arent more than 30 miles apart
in a straight line.
3. Telephone service would tough it would require restoring service of some
kind to all the links between site. We are talking a lot of cities in between.
4. Microwave attena would work because I dont think they have direct line of sight but I could be wrong.
Anyway, there are plenty of challenges. Each site certainly could start by restoring local telephone service. I shouldnt be too hard to get some older phones together and create a simple network.
I was even thinking a good prize to be found in one of the strategic caches would be 500-1000 surplus phones. You know those old black or green ones from ATT back in the 70s that if you dropped them on the floor the guy down the street could hear it. :) They would survive EMP and work forever!
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-12-2008, 10:24 AM I was thinking about this at work today. Basically running some ideas around in my head. About 2 years ago I posted a short work on a special unit whose job was to run a AM radio station and act as a radio relay team as well. The team is sited on one of the higher mountains in the Bay Area and listen for various communications from around the South Bay.
It got me wondering, what if we have an encampment in Alameda NAS and they want to talk with an encampment at Moffet Field, NAS. How would it get done.
1. Water borne courier would be one way.
2. Radio is an obvious one, they probably arent more than 30 miles apart
in a straight line.
3. Telephone service would tough it would require restoring service of some
kind to all the links between site. We are talking a lot of cities in between.
4. Microwave attena would work because I dont think they have direct line of sight but I could be wrong.
Anyway, there are plenty of challenges. Each site certainly could start by restoring local telephone service. I shouldnt be too hard to get some older phones together and create a simple network.
I was even thinking a good prize to be found in one of the strategic caches would be 500-1000 surplus phones. You know those old black or green ones from ATT back in the 70s that if you dropped them on the floor the guy down the street could hear it. :) They would survive EMP and work forever!
30 miles, microwave should work, that is about the limit for microwaves to be used because they do follow the curvature of the Earth for some distance. I know in the late 1940's and 1950's, before we had a transcontinental coax for television in place, TV networks and telephone used microwave relay stations placed at 30 mile intervals and were used to reach stations in remote areas. There are time as well where weather conditions can make the signal go further or if you up the power. IIRC, there is a microwave link to Cuba that is used for telephones that we put up in the 1950's and is still in use for Cuban families here to call their relatives in Castro's Cuba. Sometimes the signal is iffy though.
Myself, I've talked on my VHF amateur walkie talkie to Canada standing at the edge of Lake Erie. I only had the basic rubber duck antenna and putting out low power at 1 watt but 50 miles cross the lake and 20 miles or so inland, they heard me clear as a bell.
Chuck M.
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Rogue765 08-13-2008, 01:53 AM You can also break out the CB radio. Normally CB radio only has a range of about 4 miles, but if you use a larger antenna, operate on greater power, "shoot skip" and operate on higher or lower frequencies, you can communicate for hundreds or even thousands of miles. The last three techniques are illegal, but I doubt the FCC will be doing much prosecuting after WW3 :D .
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-13-2008, 10:13 AM You can also break out the CB radio. Normally CB radio only has a range of about 4 miles, but if you use a larger antenna, operate on greater power, "shoot skip" and operate on higher or lower frequencies, you can communicate for hundreds or even thousands of miles. The last three techniques are illegal, but I doubt the FCC will be doing much prosecuting after WW3 :D .
True, I used to run CB and gotten as far as Mexico and California while running "barefoot" (legal power). Myself, I've gotten 10 miles usually, I was able to hit Ambridge, PA from here and used to chat with a group called "The River Rats." One interesting CB QSO (contact) I had was with a CBer in an airplane over the Ohio River.
Amateur radio, in the 2 meter band, 14 - 148 Mc, on 1 watt low power into a 5/8ths wave magmount antenna, I can get out to 10 or 15 miles, if I kick it up to 2.5 to 6 watts (depending if I feed it 7.2 to 13.8 volts), I can get out a good 50 miles or so. I've talked to Ohio that way.
Chuck M
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pmulcahy 08-13-2008, 12:41 PM True, I used to run CB and gotten as far as Mexico and California while running "barefoot" (legal power). Myself, I've gotten 10 miles usually, I was able to hit Ambridge, PA from here and used to chat with a group called "The River Rats." One interesting CB QSO (contact) I had was with a CBer in an airplane over the Ohio River.
Amateur radio, in the 2 meter band, 14 - 148 Mc, on 1 watt low power into a 5/8ths wave magmount antenna, I can get out to 10 or 15 miles, if I kick it up to 2.5 to 6 watts (depending if I feed it 7.2 to 13.8 volts), I can get out a good 50 miles or so. I've talked to Ohio that way.
Chuck M
AM-band radios are good for long-range, too. When I was stationed in Korea using a military AM radio (can't remember the model -- I'll have to wrack my brain for that), I was able to talk to Schofield Barracks in Hawaii from Camp Casey in Korea. IIRC, that's roughly 3500 miles (about 5635 km). Of course, that was from the DTOC with some seriously-large antennas. The radios at the SCF were capable of even longer ranges.
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DeaconR 08-13-2008, 06:07 PM So my general assessment is that it wouldn't be that big a deal as the earlier game suggests?
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-13-2008, 06:58 PM So my general assessment is that it wouldn't be that big a deal as the earlier game suggests?
Only if you assume there are some surviving electronics. I think both versions paint a picture that virutually nothing electronic from a hand held calculator or a power station has survived.
Mabye its safe to say that by 2001 only MilGov has the few surviving, reliable, communication networks of global reach.
What do u all think?
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-14-2008, 11:25 AM AM-band radios are good for long-range, too. When I was stationed in Korea using a military AM radio (can't remember the model -- I'll have to wrack my brain for that), I was able to talk to Schofield Barracks in Hawaii from Camp Casey in Korea. IIRC, that's roughly 3500 miles (about 5635 km). Of course, that was from the DTOC with some seriously-large antennas. The radios at the SCF were capable of even longer ranges.
BTW, my father was stationed at Camp Casey, he was there from 1955/56 I think.
Do you remember the frequency(ies) you used? I know some amateur radio operators use AM mode on the bands too, usually on 160 meters (1800 - 2000 kc, just above the AM radio band) and 75/80 meters (3500 - 4000 kc). They can get some good distance with that, especially on 80 meters. Regular AM stations, 540 -1700 kc, I've picked up Berkeley, CA here in Pittsburgh along with Anguila in the West Indies. I have an old 8 transistor Magnavox from 1965, I pulled in a 1000 watt station from Texas with it, for it's size, the "Maggie" is a good performer.
I think with the dearth of broadcasting in Twilight, you might be able to cover more distance with less power since the AM bands are less crowded. In 1920, KDKA-AM put out only 100 watts, yet they were heard in Australia and Finland. I think even 5000 watts would be able to do in Twilight as to what 50,000 watts does now. Come to think of it, when I can't sleep, if I listen to Art Bell/George Noory out of Youngstown, Ohio on WKBN, 570 kc, I sometimes pick up Radio Reloj (Radio Clock, their version of CNN) from Cuba and many times, they "walk over" WKBN. There are people who do use long (Beveredge) antennas to pull in AM (Mediumwave) and longwave stations, some of those are thousands of feet long.
Chuck M.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-14-2008, 11:32 AM Only if you assume there are some surviving electronics. I think both versions paint a picture that virutually nothing electronic from a hand held calculator or a power station has survived.
Mabye its safe to say that by 2001 only MilGov has the few surviving, reliable, communication networks of global reach.
What do u all think?
I think the EMP threat is overrated. I'm not saying it isn't a threat, but I refuse to think that EVERY radio, car, computer, etc., was fried. I think if your radio is connected to an antenna and/or power source, same with computer, etc., then it stands a fair chance of being fried but if you have a transistor radio on the shelf, external antenna folded in all the way it should be safe. Same if you have a computer not connected to anything. Say if EMP fries my computer I'm using now, I have a box next to me as backup, not connected to anything, I swap it and continue on. Same with computer chips, if there is a chip on the shelf of "Bob's Electronic Store" not connected to anything, it should be safe, especially if they are in anti-static package.
MilGov, I think they would have an edge although I think CivGov and others could catch up if they pool their resources right and gather people together like people who work (or worked) in broadcasts, amateur radio operators and so on. It's like for example, if you want room, board, healthcare (whatever you have) and a little "walking around" money, if you a ham radio operator, the militia, CivGov, whatever might want to press you into service for radio repair and comms.
Chuck M.
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pmulcahy 08-14-2008, 01:16 PM I think the EMP threat is overrated. I'm not saying it isn't a threat, but I refuse to think that EVERY radio, car, computer, etc., was fried. I think if your radio is connected to an antenna and/or power source, same with computer, etc., then it stands a fair chance of being fried but if you have a transistor radio on the shelf, external antenna folded in all the way it should be safe.
Chuck M.
SOP in the Army is that if word is received of impending nuclear attack (assuming you are otherwise protected from the blast) is to immediately turn off all radios and electronics, remove and stow the antennas, and kill the vehicle engines.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-15-2008, 03:35 PM SOP in the Army is that if word is received of impending nuclear attack (assuming you are otherwise protected from the blast) is to immediately turn off all radios and electronics, remove and stow the antennas, and kill the vehicle engines.
Very good advice, that's even mentioned in amateur radio magazines too. Although this was only a movie, in "Broken Arrow" with Christian Slater and John Travolta, Travolta (the bad guy) ordered his group to cut the Humvee's engine since he set off one bomb to protect it from EMP. I'm not too familiar but would an Army Humvee have any electrical parts that can be affected, IIRC, they run on diesel so there is no need for an electrical system and what electrical system there is would contain parts that are hardy and EMP resistant. BTW, I think Ford did such a study in 1967 on how electrical fields could affect engines but it was more in response to reports of UFO's shutting off cars, I have a writeup about it in an old "Popular Mechanics" magazine.
Chuck M.
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