French involvement in the Europe after 2001. [Archive]

Slappy

01-21-2010, 08:01 AM

I'll toss out some short answers to start a discussion:

1. Help for european neighbors. Likely not a lot in the short term. Internal security and reconstruction seem to be top priorities. Policy at the borders seems largely focused on refugee control. I could see them supporting some local measures near to France because having relatatively stable and friendly areas near the border makes their job easier. Something along the lines of a broad French aid for at least several years seems very unlikey as the French themselves would be unlikely to support it until their conditions improved.

2. French agents in NATO. Probably, but not that many. Networks degraded, communications problems, etc. Still, France can pay and that gets you agents.

3. View of Soviet Threat. Nil in my opinion. I don't see any credible land threat from the Soviet divisions in Eastern Germany. It's not clear they could take out the remaining NATO forces, much less an organized French army.

4. Pact forces. Largely the same. Italy isn't really a committed Pact member and not really set up for offensive action. That and the Alps provide a pretty effective natural barrier from potential Italian invasion. As an aside I think the Italians would fare better post 2k than most timelines give them credit for. They have almost no fighting in on their territory and limited nuking. I see them as a major player in the recovery.

5. Internal struggles. Not an expert, but the Basques could flare up. The flemmish are likely not pro-union but have little ability to argue.

Work calls, so that's all for now.

pmulcahy11b

01-21-2010, 09:26 AM

Here's how I view the French after the Twilight War: like the Vulcans in Enterprise. Give everyone just enough help to make them barely useful to the French, but impossible to be rivals. Treat the rest of the world like a bunch of bad little kids instead of a world civilization that needs to get back on its feet in a big way.

Slappy

01-21-2010, 11:37 AM

To continue my list:

6a. How stable is the Franco-Belgian Union? Pretty dang stable. The southern half of Belgium is quite pro-french. The other half is being occupied by the best remaining army in the world. Even if you had issues and wanted to start an uprising, being kicked out of the union means being kicked into the dead zone and one of the most dangerous areas in 2k, which is saying something. I think the relative choice of security v. possible political expression keeps Belgium, and just about anyone else, happily in for some time.

6b. French support for areas outside of the area covered in the RDF Guide. Very little in my opinion unless there is something directly to be gained. Examples of things to be gained are routes to ship oil and other commodities, access to raw materials, possible agricultural or technological resourses. Still neo-colonial would probably be too nice a description of the way they would pursue these ends to the prior poster's point. Just enough food and nice to make the locals useful.

7. Foreign Legion Recruiting? Why not, but you better be good. There are hundreds of thousands of very experienced soldiers who would be willing to do just about anything for French citizenship. Wouldn't you if you missed the Omega boat? The French can lay out pretty harsh terms in terms of reward for service and still get great soldiers looking for reliable food and shelter.

Rainbow Six

01-21-2010, 02:06 PM

Some of my thoughts on this subject

1. Helping European neighbours. I don't for one moment imagine the French simply "helping" anyone for the sake of helping; I could forsee them becoming involved in various countries, but I think any such involvement would solely be to further French interests - as Paul said, helping other countries to reach a level where they can be of use to France.

For example, it's been mentioned on the Poland After Omega thread that the French would gain a long term benefit from helping the Poles as it would place a French ally on Germany's eastern border. Some of you may have noted that I've always advocated the French having a covert presence in the United Kingdom as well as it suits the French to keep the UK destabilised. I'd expect Germany to also be subject to French destablisation efforts. Yes, both the UK and Germany are in a pretty sorry state on 01 January 2001, but they will recover eventually - anything that the French can do to delay that recovery gives them more time to cement their position as a World Superpower.

I think in some areas you could see proxy warfare taking place, with factions armed / equipped by the French fighting factions supported by other countries. One example of that could be in Scotland if French backed Scottish separatists became engaged in combat with British Government troops. Likewise in Canada, withe the French supporting Quebecois against Canadian troops.

I think the French might also become involved with Catalonian Separatists as that would put a buffer state on the Franco Spanish border.

2. French agents. I think you'd still find numbers of French agents throughout Europe (and beyond). Fully agree with Slappy that comms will be unreliable, etc, but I think working for the French may be an attractive option for many - they can pay, not just in cash (gold?) but in goods, and ultimately can offer sanctuary in French territory - that may be a powerful recruiting tool for a would be agent in war torn Germany - work for the DGSE for a few years and you and your family will be given safe passage to France (of course, every time the agent tries to take the French up on that offer they say "one more mission...just a few months more". Incidentally, I always though the idea of an Israeli agent in Krakow was a bit far fetched...so I made her French and Head of the DGSE in Poland.

I also think there may be a fair number of French agents in North America, operating out of Quebec - I think it's possible that there would be a DGSE presence in both Colorado Springs and Omaha.

3. I agree with Slappy - the Soviets aren't going to pose much of a threat to the French Army any time soon. And the French will still have their own nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

4. Again, I agree with Slappy - I don't envisage the Italians and the French going at it in any big way; perhaps the occasional skirmish on the border between French troops and semi marauders encroaching on their territory, but nothing more than that - referring to my point above, if the Italians did get shirty the French still have nukes...

I actually think there's more mileage in the possibility of the French and the Italians forming some sort of alliance...I'm not suggesting that the Italians join the Franco Belgian Union, but I think it's possible there could be some trade between the French and the Italians.

5 / 6. Agree with Slappy again...the Flemish may not be pro FBU, but what are their options? Fight for independence from the most organised country in Europe? I think that would be out of the frying pan and into a very, very hot fire...

There may be some localised disturbances / rioting inside France, particularly I think in 1997 / 1998, but I'd expect the authorities to deal with them quite quickly and efficiently.

As for outside Europe, remember the French presence in Quebec gives them a foothold in North America, and there are also French territories in the Pacific and Going Home states that Senegal is under French control (I think?). So I think the French might be engaged in a small amount of Empire building, although again on the basis of how that can best serve France.

7. Expanding the Foreign Legion; yep, I think any experienced troops who find themselves in French territory might find a home in the Legion.

So, that's my take on the French...trying to establish themselves as the World's only Superpower, helped by the fact that they still have a nuclear arsenal, and offering limited assistance to other countries, but only when doing so best serves their own needs.

Cheers

Raellus

01-21-2010, 03:47 PM

It would be irrational and dangerous but I can see some sort of Flemish underground starting up in the wake of union with France. I think that a de-facto French seizure of Belgium would be the straw that broke the camel's back for some Flemish Belgians. The more militant among them might form an underground of sorts or a separatist terrorist organization. I don't see them doing any more than ETA has done in Spain but they would be a nuisance.

Have any of you seen Children of Men? Great film, IMHO. I see the French having to deal with significant internal strife resulting from anti-refugee sentiments. There'd be loads of refugees from all over Europe, Africa, and the Middle East trying desperately to find sanctuary on French soil. This would undoubtedly worry and upset a lot of French citizens. I see some right-wing French nationalists extending anti-refugee sentiments/actions to anti-immigrant sentiment/actions (i.e. "if you're not racially French, get out of France!"). I can see riots much like the ones that occured a couple of years ago when French police shot and killed a Muslim boy in one of France's ethnic ghettos.

How would the French government deal with this? Who knows. But it would be a serious issue that they would have to deal with.

As for French involvement in the rest of Europe, I've posted a few times that I think that the French would actively court/pursue Poland as an eastern foil to help contain Germany and inhibit its revival. I think both the French and the Poles (the Polish, moreso) have an almost atavistic fear of Germany and anything either could do to keep Germany off balance would be done.

I see the French DGSE attempting to acquire the Black Madonna as a means to manipulate religious sentiment in Poland. There's that Catholic brotherhood thing to cultivate and exploit. An FFL direct action unit made up of men of Eastern European descent would be perfect for the job. I have a PC in my PoV campaign that ended up in Poland this way.

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 04:44 PM

I see the French DGSE attempting to acquire the Black Madonna as a means to manipulate religious sentiment in Poland. There's that Catholic brotherhood thing to cultivate and exploit. An FFL direct action unit made up of men of Eastern European descent would be perfect for the job. I have a PC in my PoV campaign that ended up in Poland this way.

Remember France is/was largely Roman Catholic. The Pope was based in southern France for a time too. I can see them loving having the Pope move their base from Italy just because...

Legbreaker

01-21-2010, 06:26 PM

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 07:24 PM

No the Italians who fought in Austria and Southern Germany fought with the Pact forces. If you look through Going Home the Italian V Corps is listed with Pact forces, the Corps is based in Italy and unwilling to take offensive action. There another Division still in Austria whose due to the Division Commander beliefs is now conducting a partisan war against the Soviet units in Austria as it withdraws into Italy.

In a large part the Greeks and Italy had local alliance, once they entered the war due to their alliance and attack Germany, they had to enter in limited alliance even if it was uneasy one with Pact forces, otherwise Austria and Southern Germany would of been a three way brawl....

Webstral

01-21-2010, 08:22 PM

France is going to do what France has always done: what is good for France. That's not a malediction. The French at least are honest about acting in their self-interest. "Anglo-American hypocrisy" pretends that what is good for the leading anglophone nations is the same as what is best for everyone.

How France's pursuit of her own interests translates into action in Europe in 2001 depends on the state of France in 2001. That's a whole other discussion.

Webstral

Legbreaker

01-21-2010, 08:22 PM

Fought with yes, but allied? I think not.

It's a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and little more. There is likely to be some collaboration, but it probably wouldn't take much for sparks to fly.

WWIII is not one single conflict. It is really made up of numerous smaller conflicts which tend to overlap and include forces from all over the place. Taking the USSR for an example, they are at war with China, Nato, Iran, Romania, and, depending on which timeline you're looking at, the Ukraine. While their oposition in several places may include military forces from the one nation, these are still essentially seperate conflicts.

The "Twilight War" is a misnomer, Twilight Wars would be much more accurate.

Adm.Lee

01-21-2010, 08:57 PM

Remember France is/was largely Roman Catholic. The Pope was based in southern France for a time too. I can see them loving having the Pope move their base from Italy just because...

Well, a pope was at Avignon for a while, but in opposition to another pope in Rome. One was under the thumb of the French king-- not something a pope would want to recall, IMO. Switzerland, home of the Pope's guard force, seems a more likely place to hide for a Pope.

Abbott Shaull

01-21-2010, 09:49 PM

WWIII is not one single conflict. It is really made up of numerous smaller conflicts which tend to overlap and include forces from all over the place. Taking the USSR for an example, they are at war with China, Nato, Iran, Romania, and, depending on which timeline you're looking at, the Ukraine. While their oposition in several places may include military forces from the one nation, these are still essentially seperate conflicts.

Wow. WWII was much similar. There was the Italians in Africa, and else where in southeastern Europe. Germany against Poland, then France and England, then the evil communist in the Soviet Union. Japan against everyone in Asia and the Pacific who was close enough to hit except the Soviet through agreement that both honored until the War in Europe had finished and the Soviet had time to move troops east to fight there after a short series of skirmishes in which the Soviet convince their Japanese counter-part who was stronger. Also there was small conflict of Soviet against the Poles that some overlook and Soviets against Finland. There was also minor pissing war the Italian spilled over with UK due to Italy alliance with the Germans.

Before US entered the war against Japan and Germany and Italy declaring war with the US. The two major wars one in Europe and one in the Pacific/China were largely separate and didn't include other parties. There were also some of the other minor battles.

Basically once the US entered the war. The US and UK were the two where fighting on multiple fronts. With China fighting Japan and Soviets fighting Germany with them. With the UK ending up fighting many of the proxy wars due to the fact that many had Governments in Exile and the UK Armies were more realistically Allied/Commonwealth Armies.

Even the Spanish had sent an Division to fight against the Soviets. Many of the Germans Allies only had troops on the Soviet front.

One could argue that WWI was basically several small wars that happen at the same time. All three had basically several smaller wars that were fought just because the total break down of larger neighbors who went to war....

Legbreaker

01-21-2010, 10:49 PM

The previous two wars involved theatres of conflict rather than being totally seperate. Italy and Germany (along with it's subject/occupied states such as Austria) were firm allies as was Japan (although nothing came of it).

In T2K the Italian conflict was essentially different in origin to that involving Nato in northern Europe. Nato was effectively fighting several wars at the same time against Pact forces and Greco-Italian forces. I'm not sure if the middle east could be considered a different war, or just a different theatre in regard to Nato - have to look closer at the causes behind it.

Something else to keep in mind that while some participants may feel they're only involved in one war, others may feel differently. For example, the Italians attacked Nato as a direct result of Nato running the Greek blockade on Turkey. Nato could argue they were delivering supplies to help Turkey against the Soviets and it was not intended to be used against Greece, therefore Italian agression was unwarranted - Nato sees Italy entering into the larger war on the side of the Soviets.

Italy on the other hand does not see themselves as entering a larger conflict and being associated with the Pact, but is only involved in a smaller scale "disagreement" involving Turkey, Greece, Nato and themselves - the WP has nothing to do with it and it's basically just coincidence the WP are involved in combat with the enemy of the Italians.

So, to sum up, WWIII is a very confusing, convoluted and extremely complex mess.

Legbreaker

01-22-2010, 08:22 AM

Following on from my earlier post, Mediterranean Cruise actually states "the Greco-Turkish War of 1997".

This war was prompted by anti Greek riots in Cyprus "which the Cypriot army moved in to supress. In response to this, the Turkish army invaded Cyprus and sparked a war with Greece. At first, the war was limited to Cyprus, but soon expanded to the Balkans, where Greek army units moved against Turkish army units in Thrace. Caught between a major Warsaw Pact offensive in the north and the Greek offensive in the south, the Turkish position was soon rendered untenable, and Nato was forced to send help in the form of a convoy. Greek naval forces sank the convoy off Izmir. Nato responded with air strikes against Greek naval bases, and Greece declared war on the Nato countries on 1 July 1997."

As is mentioned elsewhere, Italy entered the war a day or so later in support of it's ally Greece.

Nowhere is it even implied that Greece, Italy and Albania (the other party in the alliance until Greece and Italy supported Serbia's claim for Kosovo instead) were in any way affiliated with the WP.

headquarters

01-22-2010, 08:50 AM

All of the following is speculation - as in keep with this thread as a whole :

I dont see the French - the only effective goverment in Europe and the defacto power - as wanting to destabilize any neighbouring countries.

Having neighbours that are under control by warlords that are unstable or unpredictable would not be in Paris interest .

Installing goverments that they know will want o keep the French on their good side is of course a natural response.

Call it self serving to do so or just plain logical .The French will have the opportunity to support limited goverments in Germany,possibly Britain and certainly BeNeLux countries by 2000.

To argue that the French would do so as part of an evil scheme to gain supremacy ( that they already have in T2K) would be overlooking the fact that the economic development based on French support of material and arms would grow to ensure this on its own .No need for a nefarious plan , the neighbouring countries will grow to love the French and do their bidding like Western Europe after the Marshall plan.

I would think that the French would have programs to create "Govs" loyal to ( and supported by ) Paris as far as possible as a rule , but in cases like Britain where such moves might create tensions it would more a case of applying the political pressure needed to ensure that all sail the same course .

After all , France would not gain much from having violent and unstable neighbouring countries -even if the price was expansion of its borders to include French speaking areas abroad etc .

In the long run it would be much more efficient to develop and groom the now devestated countries around it to become viable markets for products and sources of raw materials.

Gaining the hegemony in this sector wiould be immensly more valuable than both Wallonia ( French speaking Belgium),Quebec, the overseas territories etc .

In short- "the Great Game " theories seem a tad outdated to me , I see France as making a bigger place for it self by developing other countries as far as it has the resources to (albeit -not to a level where they could challenge the defacto power of course ).

Much of the French populace will need employment in secondary or even tertiary sectors of the economy if France itself expects to remain stable without severe repression or revolts.This entails commerce -and war is bad for business.

In this respect I see more of a post WWII -American approach to Europe and the US after T2k and less of a divide and conquer style approach .

all imho .

Mohoender

01-22-2010, 08:59 AM

My turn.:)

What would French do to help or not help their European neighbors after the fall of 2000?

I would not surprise everyone if I say not much but there will have exceptions. In France we love exceptions. What would be a rule without the thousands of exceptions/special cases comming with it?:D One of these exception could be applied to Catalonia. That region of Spain is in the process of gaining independence and France always had close ties with it. The other ones would be Cornwall, Wales and Scotland as the French would highly desire to weaken UK as much as possible (we already discussed that. Germany, Netherland, Spain and Italy would be ruled out.

Did they (still) have agent working in all level government in Germany and NATO Allies?

Yes I would say so. As someone else said: because France still can pay. In addition, unlike US we love field agents and don't rely as much on electronics. Talking of that France retain the ability to send sattelites in Space.

What is their view of the Soviets threat poses to them?

What threat? First, it is gone. Second, France is more than ready to face it. Third, they are bloody communsits and that is something we perfectly understand. We have plenty of communist heroes ourselves. The most patriotic song after the "Marseillaise" is "The International". The communist came to existence within the second international that was established in Paris in 1889. More important, France still has plenty of nukes and the power to wipe out any potential surviving ennemy. What would not surprise me, however, is to have the French more concern about a potential US threat. After all these guys whatch Disney and play with nuclear bombs. Aren't they anything but immature kids?;)

What is their view of the Pact Force threat poses to them, remember Italy is to their southeast?

Again what threat? Italy being a threat (except for soccer), give me a break. Moreover we like Pasta.

What type of internal struggles would have increase since WWIII started, including issue within Belgium with parts of the nation opposing the Union?

All! The Basque region will be in chaos. Britanny will pause a problem but nothing we can't deal with. Mountainous regions being partially independent is effectively possible. I don't believe in Corsica going away but the "Union Corse" is a great idea. However, the Island should be autonomous with the constitution of Pascal Paoli completing the French one. Moreover, the Corsicans could be heavily involved in Italy, challenging the Italian Mafias at least in some regions. In Belgium, the Flemmish should be a serious threat with people engaged in regular sabotage and the French Gendarmerie (with units made up almost entirely of Belgian Wallon) conducting heavy anti-terrorists action much in the way of these conducted by Nazi Germany during WWII. (I wouldn't be surprised to see a few concentration camps around especially if they are presented as refugee camps)

How stable is the French-Belgium Union and how much support do they offer to outside of Europe, besides the situation that are handle in the Middle East Resource Guide?

Fairly Stable at least when it comes to Brussel Capital, the Wallon region, Luxembourg and the Saarland (Yes I include it). In this union, you'll also have to include Monaco Andorra and may be the Anglo-British Islands. Switzerland should be/become a partner and this is also true for Ireland. Tunisia could have joined the Union. Some African countries would have become almost true protectorate: Senegal, Djibouti, Cameroon, Gabon and may be Benin (Togo is in question). French garrisons there would have been increased and French troops would be heavily involved in internal security within these countries. Quebec would be supported but probably not too openly (why would you want to be at war with NATO?). Cuba could be helped out (also not too openly) as it would be very nice to kick dying US in its own backyard when it cannot hit back:cool:. Limited relations should be established with Australia, New Zealand, Sweden and Thailand. Finally, you can expect the French to be involved in some kind of covert operations in Poland and in Serbia.

Is the French Foreign Legion being expanded? How are the recruiting?

Yes! It should be back to it's pre-1962 level of 40.000 (actually it is around 7.000). Many disbanded units would be recreated. It would recruit as always with a full respect of its tradition. Anyone can enlist but, as someone says, that should be hard. Women can enlist but, so far, none ever passed the selection tests (no risk of being sued for discrimination:D). A French can enlist but has to declare that he is not a French citizen.

Legionnaires code of honour (I suspect article 6 to change slightly)
Article 1: Legionnaire, you are a volunteer, serving France with honour and fidelity.
Article 2: Each legionnaire is your brother in arms whatever his nationality, his race or his religion might be. You show to him the same close solidarity that links the members of the same family.
Article 3: You respect your traditions and your superiors. Discipline and friendship are your strengths. Courage and honesty are your virtues.
Article 4: You are proud of being a legionnaire. You are always well mannered and smart. Your behaviour is of the best. You are always modest and your quarters are always clean and tidy.
Article 5: You are an elite soldier who is rigorous with himself. You consider your weapon as your most precious possession. You constantly maintain your physical fitness.
Article 6: Your mission is sacred. It is carried out until the end, in respect of the law, the customs of war International Conventions, if needs be, at the risk of your own life.
Article 7: In combat you act without passion or hatred. You respect vanquished enemies. You never surrender your dead, your wounded, or your weapons.

Article 7 is a reference to the most important of their tradition: Camerone. "Camerone 1863" is found on all flags from the Legion along with "Nation and Fidelity". As far as I know they have always been faithful to this.

Mohoender

01-22-2010, 09:20 AM

Call it self serving to do so or just plain logical .The French will have the opportunity to support limited goverments in Germany,possibly Britain and certainly BeNeLux countries by 2000.

Benelux is under French control and it is at war with the Netherlands (that rules it out). I agree for Britain and that's why I see the French helping Wales, Scotland and may be Cornwall. Germany is more likely and France has every interest in building ties with Bavaria. I think it would do it at the Landers level. Having a stabilized but divided germany would be in its best interest (equally true for Britain)

To argue that the French would do so as part of an evil scheme to gain supremacy ( that they already have in T2K) would be overlooking the fact that the economic development based on French support of material and arms would grow to ensure this on its own .No need for a nefarious plan , the neighbouring countries will grow to love the French and do their bidding like Western Europe after the Marshall plan.

I like that idea but you forgot one thing. US was the victor and was seen as a liberator. France is not yet ready to do so but it could think of launching a military action to liberate at least Austria, Germany, Poland and the Czech. No real reason to intervene in Italy and it might be met with distrust in Spain. That should be wise.

I would think that the French would have programs to create "Govs" loyal to ( and supported by ) Paris as far as possible as a rule , but in cases like Britain where such moves might create tensions it would more a case of applying the political pressure needed to ensure that all sail the same course.

Agree

After all , France would not gain much from having violent and unstable neighbouring countries -even if the price was expansion of its borders to include French speaking areas abroad etc.

Agree

In the long run it would be much more efficient to develop and groom the now devestated countries around it to become viable markets for products and sources of raw materials.

Not without securing them first. Otherwise, it would be a waste. When US is gone, France might fill-in the vacuum (after going home)

In short- "the Great Game " theories seem a tad outdated to me , I see France as making a bigger place for it self by developing other countries as far as it has the resources to (albeit -not to a level where they could challenge the defacto power of course ).

Agree but it would have to bring them security first. A treaty with the Soviet would help greatly.

Much of the French populace will need employment in secondary or even tertiary sectors of the economy if France itself expects to remain stable without severe repression or revolts.This entails commerce -and war is bad for business.

No, they will be shipped back to the countryside to work in the fields.

In this respect I see more of a post WWII -American approach to Europe and the US after T2k and less of a divide and conquer style approach .

Agree

Rainbow Six

01-22-2010, 11:21 AM

Quebec would be supported but probably not too openly (why would you want to be at war with NATO?). .

Surely France chose to go to war with NATO when it invaded two NATO members (West Germany and the Netherlands) at the start of 1998?

I've always presumed that the fact that the NATO powers were somewhat pre occupied with fighting the Warsaw Pact at the time meant that other partners in the alliance, primarily the United Kingdom and the United States, chose to turn the proverbial blind eye to this move by the French (perhaps after some top secret negotiations between the various Governments).

I've often thought the French might use their presence in Quebec to influence similar negotiations between the French and US Governments (Milgov or Civgov). For example, the French might be willing to supply Milgov with oil on the condition that Milgov recognised the Quebec Separatists as the legitimate government of Quebec?

Webstral

01-22-2010, 12:10 PM

Raellus

01-22-2010, 01:04 PM

Nowhere is it even implied that Greece, Italy and Albania (the other party in the alliance until Greece and Italy supported Serbia's claim for Kosovo instead) were in any way affiliated with the WP.

Doesn't Italy invade Austria at some point, working in concert with the Czechs? (in the v1.0 timeline)

It makes sense that the two armies would cooperate actively and/or coordinate their efforts. Although this wouldn't make Italy part of the WTO/PACT, it would be an alliance of sorts, would it not?

headquarters

01-22-2010, 01:05 PM

he was a crazy fascist killer megalomaniac..
Franco remarked to an American official that he saw World War II as three separate wars while the conflict was still raging. He saw a Germany v the West war in which he was neutral, a Germany v the USSR war in which he was on Germany's side, and a US v Japan war in which he favored the US. He claimed to see the United States as defending Spanish civilization in the Philippines.

Webstral

kato13

01-22-2010, 01:18 PM

he was a crazy fascist killer megalomaniac..
And he is "still dead" (very inside joke for American SNL fans)

Adm.Lee

01-22-2010, 01:59 PM

I'm thinking that Germany & Netherlands maybe the only neighbors the French should want to keep divided in the near future. I don't see them picking on the British, Italians or Spanish while they are down. (We know from 2300AD that Germany is divided for 200+ years.)

pmulcahy11b

01-22-2010, 02:34 PM

Mohoender

01-22-2010, 03:13 PM

Surely France chose to go to war with NATO when it invaded two NATO members (West Germany and the Netherlands) at the start of 1998?

I've always presumed that the fact that the NATO powers were somewhat pre occupied with fighting the Warsaw Pact at the time meant that other partners in the alliance, primarily the United Kingdom and the United States, chose to turn the proverbial blind eye to this move by the French (perhaps after some top secret negotiations between the various Governments).

I've often thought the French might use their presence in Quebec to influence similar negotiations between the French and US Governments (Milgov or Civgov). For example, the French might be willing to supply Milgov with oil on the condition that Milgov recognised the Quebec Separatists as the legitimate government of Quebec?

I agree and that's what I mean when saying that France doesn't want to go at war with NATO (the blind eye or eye left at all).

I disagree with your view on Quebec for one simple reason: at that time France can impose it's will to any other power whenever it wants. If it doesn't do it, it can only be explained through popular pressure. France is the only country left with a significant number of nukes and it can oblitare either what is left of Russia or the US. That's a hell of an argument. It also has a surviving intact and expending navy (the Richelieu came to existance) and can cut US troops from supply at will anywhere in the world. The main weakness of France is an insufficient population.

Mohoender

01-22-2010, 03:19 PM

I never really fleshed it out, but part of my T2K world always had Luxembourg as a hotbed of anti-French partisan activity. I've always had this kind of World War 2-ish image -- a French unit makes their way down a street in Luxembourg, not knowing there's a gun barrel in every window about to open up on them...

I'd like to hear everyone's opinions about how accurate the idea of the Luxembourg partisans might be from everyone.

Why not but not too strong. Luxembourg doesn't have any animosity with the French and you don't shoot at the guy who are putting their money into your banks (especially true for the Belgian).

Once, my uncle came to check on his luxembourg account, at the next counter was his tax controller also checking at his own account.:p

pmulcahy11b

01-22-2010, 03:28 PM

Why not but not too strong. Luxembourg doesn't have any animosity with the French and you don't shoot at the guy who are putting their money into your banks (especially true for the Belgian).

Once, my uncle came to check on his luxembourg account, at the next counter was his tax controller also checking at his own account.:p

That is one of the few things I did look at -- then thought, "In T2K, what banks are there in Luxembourg?"

And I just thought about something else -- how much gold reserves are in Luxembourg?

pmulcahy11b

01-22-2010, 03:55 PM

The main weakness of France is an insufficient population.

You know, I read that and thought that would be a good reason that France would no longer be a great power in Traveller: 2300 -- but not in T2K. By 2300, the rest of the world might have gotten real tired of having France push them around (unfortunately, sort of like other countries are getting real tired of being pushed around by the US these days). All great powers eventually fall or fade away -- usually because they've gotten too big for their britches. In T2K, France is the biggest kid on the block -- by 2300, the rest of the kids on the block might have gotten together and beaten the crap out of France.

John Farson

01-22-2010, 07:48 PM

Italy is in a bad way. There is no effective government beyond local areas.
The northern, industrialised part of the nation was heavily nuked according to Med Cruise and a flood of southbound refugees resulted.

Italy also is in no way part of or even allied with the Pact nations. Italy entered the war as a result of their treaty with Greece when Nato ran their blockade in an attempt to resupply Turkey in their local conflict.

France in my opinion has far too many problems of their own to worry much about what's happening more than a stones throw away. A few small teams and the odd individual operative is likely to be encountered from time to time, but the situation within France and it's client states is highly likely to occupy their attention for several years to come.

France, even though not actively involved in the war, was still nuked. Ports, industry, communications, etc are all sure to have been hit to deny them to the enemy. Both Nato and Pact missiles are likely to have been used with one side blaming the other to avoid the counterstrike - or perhaps the counterstrike was launched by France? The half dozen or so missiles were simply lost amongst the hundreds already being thrown about by the belligerants.

France also lost most of it's trading partners due to the war. Imports of food, fuel, parts, etc would have effectively ceased inflicting further hardship on the populace and further pressure on the military and security forces to keep control. With a great length of border to protect from Germany in the north all the way around to Spain to the south, not to mention the possiblity of boats from across the channel, just border protection alone would occupy almost all available forces. We know that the French have set up the Dead Zone along the Rhine extending 50 km into Germany - it's likely that a similar buffer would exist all around the country.

I concur. To me, people tend to overemphasise France's role and power in the post-nuclear exchange world of the Twilight War. Yes, France is the strongest power left, or rather, it is the only intact power left. Let's look at the other powers:

USA: nuked, in anarchy, starving
USSR/Russia: ditto
China: ditto
UK: ditto
etc.
etc.

So in this kind of environment, it doesn't take much to be the strongest power around. But what good does being strongest do for France in a nuked out world? Or to put it another way, France is the tallest midget in a roomful of midgets. Yes, France is better off than the rest, but in the world of "Twilight 2000" better is a relative term. I personally think that by 2001 several million people have died in France as a result of the nuclear attacks, radiation, famines and epidemics. I'll post here what the Finnish Sourcebook has to say about France (I'll eventually post the World Situation in 2000 section when I get to it):
************************************************** *******
"Despite her neutrality, France suffered from nuclear strikes directed at her ports and oil industry in order to deny them to NATO. The destruction was mostly limited to the coasts, but the number of deaths was great. Riots and instability caused by the war and ensuing refugee crisis led first to the closing of the borders and then to the occupation of the entire west bank of the Rhine. Because of this the Army has created a freefire Dead Zone (La Zone Morte), where anyone who is caught moving can be freely killed. The border is officially closed to all but French citizens, although in practice one can bribe one's way in, provided that you have a useful profession that you can support yourself with.

The Franco-Spanish border is also closed, but smuggling is rife. The black market is run by the Union Corse (a Corsican organised crime syndicate). With the worsening of the situation the French government has had to take tougher measures, and as a result life in most areas is hard but bearable.

In some areas (particularly mountainous ones) there is open rebellion against the government and martial law is in place almost everywhere. The governments of the southern French departments are unbelievably corrupt because they are controlled by the Union Corse. Marseille is the largest undamaged city, though it is in bad shape compared to the pre-war era. It represents the remains of trade between the merchants of Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean and is completely under the control of the Corsicans.

Most of France is organized (mostly due to the French government/Army though the Union Corse functions similarly in southern France). A few mountainous areas are disputed or independent . Terrorised and isolated areas as well as military cantonments are to be found in the west bank of the Rhine. La Zone Morte is destroyed.
************************************************** ********
So with all these issues, I'd say France has its work cut out just trying to keep things together, never mind going off on foreign adventures except for the aforementioned small teams and individual agents. I can see the French in the Middle-East because of the oil, but I don't see them doing much in Africa. The only thing I could come up with is setting up transportation nodes in the African coast, to safeguard the Middle-East oil shipments from pirates and the like. But stuff like interfering in Canada, or South America, or Asia... I dunno. I just don't think they have the resources for that.

Adm.Lee

01-22-2010, 08:50 PM

pmulcahy11b

01-22-2010, 10:08 PM

Small teams and agent networks are all I've been thinking the French would be able to do for a while. Were I them, I would be wanting to collect intelligence from the east as much as possible, with an eye to influencing things in a pro-French direction.

Or drop off teams of Australian SAS by sub in Poland to pick up a package, as in Twilight Encounters. BTW, has anyone come up with a possible back story behind that one?

Targan

01-23-2010, 01:01 AM

Or drop off teams of Australian SAS by sub in Poland to pick up a package, as in Twilight Encounters. BTW, has anyone come up with a possible back story behind that one?

No, but here's an idea. They needed the best in the world for a mission, and got them.

Legbreaker

01-23-2010, 04:51 AM

They needed more spare parts for their MP-5's and stupidly trusted the Frence to drop them off in Germany?

There could be any number of reasons, but I just can't think of any particularly important ones. Australia has just come out of a war with Indonesia which resulted in the near total destruction of Australia's naval and air assets. It's also popssible that we're engaged in Korea as part of the UN forces there. There are indications also that Australians are located on Cyprus carrying out peacekeeping duties with the UN.

With all that activity elsewhere, I'm not so sure an SAS mission in devastated Poland would be all that high up on the list of priorities...

Rainbow Six

01-23-2010, 05:23 AM

So with all these issues, I'd say France has its work cut out just trying to keep things together, never mind going off on foreign adventures except for the aforementioned small teams and individual agents. I can see the French in the Middle-East because of the oil, but I don't see them doing much in Africa. The only thing I could come up with is setting up transportation nodes in the African coast, to safeguard the Middle-East oil shipments from pirates and the like. But stuff like interfering in Canada, or South America, or Asia... I dunno. I just don't think they have the resources for that.

There's a lot of oil in Algeria, which is just a short hop across the Med from Marseille, but there's also a lot of history between France and Algeria, so I have no clue how that might play out?

Would the French be in a position to try and reconquer Algeria to take control of the oil fields by force? Mo mentioned the possibility of French troops being in Tunisia - might the French and the Tunisians make a joint move against the Algerians? Perhaps Morocco might also be involved on the French side?

That said would they really want to invade Algeria? I think there are a lot of French citizens of Algerian descent living in France, and making military moves against the mother country might spark off a whole wave of internal disorder. Also, are they already getting enough oil and gas from their partners in the Middle East?

But wouldn't it be better to be in control of your own supplies rather than rely on others?

Or perhaps some sort of negotiated agreement be possible?

(Of course, there's every possibility that the Algerian refineries might have been nuked, in which case it may be a moot point.)

Legbreaker

01-23-2010, 06:52 AM

Where exactly is France going to be getting it's oil, gas, coal and other energy resources from anyway? What reserves exist within it's borders and what can it rely on to be delivered each and every time it's needed?
It's all well and good to say oil is coming from the middle east, but how exactly is it being transported. There's no way it'd be by pipeline up through Turkey and it's a fair bet the Suez has been nuked so you won't catch anyone wanting to sail through there even if it is still open.
Coming over land through Palestine or Israel is not likely to happen either so we're left with the posibility of a long voyage down around the bottom of Africa with all the attendant piratical risks.

That of course is just oil, what about coal, iron and other ores, and all the other things needed to support a modern society? Traditional trading partners such as the UK and the USA are history, as is just about everyone in Europe, the middle east and as can be seen in another thread in a post about Libya, northern Africa.

To me France might have avoided the general war, but they're by no means unscathed. France simply has more of it's infrastructure and military in working order, but it's still got all the problems everyone else does regarding feeding, clothing and keeping the populace warm.

Rainbow Six

01-23-2010, 07:00 AM

It's all well and good to say oil is coming from the middle east, but how exactly is it being transported. There's no way it'd be by pipeline up through Turkey and it's a fair bet the Suez has been nuked so you won't catch anyone wanting to sail through there even if it is still open.
Coming over land through Palestine or Israel is not likely to happen either so we're left with the posibility of a long voyage down around the bottom of Africa with all the attendant piratical risks.

Which is exactly why I'm suggesting the French might consider a move against Algeria to secure easier access to oil and gas supplies.

Mohoender

01-23-2010, 07:32 AM

Interesting thoughts

There's a lot of oil in Algeria, which is just a short hop across the Med from Marseille, but there's also a lot of history between France and Algeria, so I have no clue how that might play out?

Not a problem (accessibility will be) as France is already a prime customer for Algerian gas. My cousin is actually spending two-third of his time in a life base located in the middle of the Sahara and pumping oil. However, I would count Algeria to be facing a full-scale civil war and Oran and Skikda would probably have been nuked (they are the main oil terminal)

Would the French be in a position to try and reconquer Algeria to take control of the oil fields by force? Mo mentioned the possibility of French troops being in Tunisia - might the French and the Tunisians make a joint move against the Algerians? Perhaps Morocco might also be involved on the French side?
That said would they really want to invade Algeria? I think there are a lot of French citizens of Algerian descent living in France, and making military moves against the mother country might spark off a whole wave of internal disorder. Also, are they already getting enough oil and gas from their partners in the Middle East?

We wouldn't put a finger in the Djebels again. It's like asking if US wants to conquer Vietnam or USSR get involved again in Afghanistan. Not a chance!! In addition, Algeria has plenty of youth to make your life hell and plenty with french citizenship able to carry devastating terrorist actions. For my part I consider that Morocco was nuked for being too suportive of NATO. Tunisia, however, is on French side and, may be and only may be, they can be running a few unofficial oil operations in the deep sands of Algeria. No need to invade, you'll just have to deal with constant attack from Tuaregs.

France getting oil from the Middle East is one of the inconsistancy of T2K (IMO). Why would you get it from there when you already get plenty from Cameroon and Gabon and some from Tunisia? That doesn't rule out the French presence, however, as it is strategically more than important.

But wouldn't it be better to be in control of your own supplies rather than rely on others?

What France would get from others would be bonus only (probably a good path for negociation and that would be the sole justification for the Middle East Oil). First, France produces some oil. Not much but that would be used only by the army. Second under T2K coal mines would have been reopened in France, Belgium and Saarland . Third and more importantly, what about the North Sea? HMG still controls a few wells, you can expect that this is also the case for Norway (harder for Netherlands). And of course, France which has the planes, the warships, and the tankers would sit idle. They are not that stupid! Of course, their oil terminals on the Atlantic have been destroyed but one still exists in Marseille (I join a small Map). More important T2K nukes Ghent (why I still don't understand). Nevertheless, if you go with that France still has access to Ostende/Zeebruge (Belgium) and that is an oil teminal located right on the North Sea. Anyway, it wouldn't be that difficult for the French to build a new oil terminal at one of the remaining Atlantic Port (Bordeaux, Boulogne, Brest, Cherbourg, Lorient, Roscoff, Saint Malo...)

Or perhaps some sort of negotiated agreement be possible?

That is definitely possible. The French letting Algerian pirates do what they please in exchange for some oil. However, as you say Algerians oil terminal would have been destroyed and that cannot represent much.:)

Rainbow Six

01-23-2010, 08:22 AM

Thanks Mo, interested on your take on Algeria. I'd agree that there are a number of places along the west coast of Africa that could supply France with oil (I wonder what would have happened to Nigeria - I'd imagine it must have been hit by a few nukes in 1997 or 1998).

A Franco Tunisian alliance seems perfectly reasonable, but I appreciate that Tunisia might not be able to produce enough on its own to meet French needs. I do like the idea of the Tunisians operating clandestinely in Algeria though.

I would question your suggstion of a French move against the North Sea platforms though. In an earlier post you asked what would be the point in getting involved in a war with NATO...isn't there a risk that making a move against those fields might risk conflict with the British?

Whilst I think I've made it clear in previous posts that I envisage the French interfering in British affairs, with a view to keeping the UK destabilised for as long a time as possible, I do think that it would be important to the French that such interference would be subtle, covert, and most importantly deniable. I really don't see the French wanting to get involved in a shooting war with the UK, and I don't know if making a grab on some of our oil rigs might lead to that. Sure, you can argue that the French military would be far superior to the British in 2000, but we're still a nuclear power and could cause some hurt to France (as obviously they could to us - but who has the most to lose?)...that's partly why I think that whilst relations between France and the UK might be a little cool there would be a line that neither side would want to cross.

If on the other hand you are talking about the French taking over some abandoned British rigs and operating them clandestinely, that's a whole different matter...no problem with that at all. I also think any rigs in Dutch waters would be fair game - after all, France has already invaded Holland, so seizing Dutch oil rigs is only an extension of that.

Cheers

pmulcahy11b

01-23-2010, 08:40 AM

With all that activity elsewhere, I'm not so sure an SAS mission in devastated Poland would be all that high up on the list of priorities...

Maybe they needed to rescue another badly-needed politician...

Mohoender

01-23-2010, 09:07 AM

I would question your suggstion of a French move against the North Sea platforms though. In an earlier post you asked what would be the point in getting involved in a war with NATO...isn't there a risk that making a move against those fields might risk conflict with the British?

Whilst I think I've made it clear in previous posts that I envisage the French interfering in British affairs, with a view to keeping the UK destabilised for as long a time as possible, I do think that it would be important to the French that such interference would be subtle, covert, and most importantly deniable. I really don't see the French wanting to get involved in a shooting war with the UK, and I don't know if making a grab on some of our oil rigs might lead to that. Sure, you can argue that the French military would be far superior to the British in 2000, but we're still a nuclear power and could cause some hurt to France (as obviously they could to us - but who has the most to lose?)...that's partly why I think that whilst relations between France and the UK might be a little cool there would be a line that neither side would want to cross.

Very good points and I have to agree with them. I agree that seizing Dutch rigs is a better option. Still, talking of the line and cool relation there might be some ground for negociations that I totally overlooked. I can sea the French, despite their chilly relations with HMG negotiate several of these oil rigs in return for an access to a french refinery and for protection by the French military. I always had the idea of France doing its best to weaken UK just because the French are playing in its backyard. With what you pointed out I can see some serious reasons to negociate for both. For France it would be a less hazardous way to get British neutrality and for HMG it would be the best way to get the means to reconquer england quickly. Still Wales and Scotland can be part of a separate negociation. All that could lead to an interesting development and to a very bad news for the Dutch (much in the way of the Valladolid debate). Must be the wallon part of me thinking here:D

Targan

01-23-2010, 09:45 AM

With all that activity elsewhere, I'm not so sure an SAS mission in devastated Poland would be all that high up on the list of priorities...

But it did happen. It is canon. The mini-adventure "What's Polish for G'day".

Legbreaker

01-23-2010, 10:04 PM

I wonder what would have happened to Nigeria - I'd imagine it must have been hit by a few nukes in 1997 or 1998.
Payback for all the internet and mail scams....

But it did happen. It is canon. The mini-adventure "What's Polish for G'day".
True, but it seems very odd to me. There just doesn't seem to be any reason they should be there.
I suppose that's they whole point though - keep the PCs off balance and questioning what's actually going on around them.

Targan

01-23-2010, 10:07 PM

True, but it seems very odd to me. There just doesn't seem to be any reason they should be there.
I suppose that's they whole point though - keep the PCs off balance and questioning what's actually going on around them.

Maybe they walked there from the Middle East theatre LOL. The SAS do love their long range foot patrols.

kato13

01-23-2010, 10:39 PM

I attributed it to a thrice a year or so submarine transit between France and Australia of unique and/or critical items. Australia may not have had enough cargo to send back to France on one trip so they sent a four man team. Then they would have assets in Europe just in case they needed them. (To grab RESET for example)

Legbreaker

01-23-2010, 10:41 PM

That crack about the French sub could have been just smoke and mirrors too...
Gotta keep quiet about what's really going on.

Webstral

01-24-2010, 11:24 PM

I agree and that's what I mean when saying that France doesn't want to go at war with NATO (the blind eye or eye left at all).

I disagree with your view on Quebec for one simple reason: at that time France can impose it's will to any other power whenever it wants. If it doesn't do it, it can only be explained through popular pressure. France is the only country left with a significant number of nukes and it can oblitare either what is left of Russia or the US. That's a hell of an argument. It also has a surviving intact and expending navy (the Richelieu came to existance) and can cut US troops from supply at will anywhere in the world. The main weakness of France is an insufficient population.

We're to believe, then, that the Soviet Union doesn't hit the French naval bases at Brest and Marseilles (?) because...

Webstral

Legbreaker

01-25-2010, 05:26 AM

Note also that France did not close it's borders until late winter, early spring of 1998, aproximately 6 months after the first nukes were used and about 2-3 months after long range strategic targets were hit.
Up until this time, the Pact could have been excused for thinking France and Belgium were supporting Nato even they they did not have troops on the front lines.

Rainbow Six

01-25-2010, 06:52 AM

We're to believe, then, that the Soviet Union doesn't hit the French naval bases at Brest and Marseilles (?) because...

Webstral

There is precedent for this - according to canon the Soviets didn't nuke any of the major Royal Navy bases in the UK - neither Portsmouth nor Plymouth appear on GDW's target lists. Indeed in the Survivor's Guide to the UK Portsmouth is now the national capital.

Legbreaker

01-25-2010, 08:44 AM

And people are living in Warsaw after three nukes....

pmulcahy11b

01-25-2010, 03:18 PM

And people are living in Warsaw after three nukes....

Reading that module, all I can say is, "You call that living?"

Abbott Shaull

01-25-2010, 07:26 PM

Reading that module, all I can say is, "You call that living?"

You won't hear the cockroaches complaining...

Dog 6

02-01-2010, 05:50 AM

In my games France surrenders to NATO in early 2000 after a short, but hard fought air and naval battle. NATO sinks the french navy including all ssn and ssbn, hits french irbm's and nukes Paris.

Mohoender

02-01-2010, 06:27 AM

We're to believe, then, that the Soviet Union doesn't hit the French naval bases at Brest and Marseilles (?) because...

Webstral

- Because Brest is not listed as destroyed in the game.

- Because we have no naval base in Marseille. It is in Toulon.

I have no doubts that the Soviet knew about that but according to several wargames (from US, Sweden...), it seems that if the bombing was to come from NATO, we have a chance.:D

- More important, because France is neutral and if you nuke either of these, the country gets in the war.

- Because, according to the game, France was subjected to nukes in order to deny use of its oil facilities (Boulogne, Cherbourg and Nantes). Brest has none. Marseille should have been destroyed but it is noted as the most important port to be still in action.

Whatever, if you target France, I agree with you. For my part France enters the war but revert to neutrality just before the nukes and negociate a separate peace with the Pact. Then, the Soviets keep to their word and the nukes hitting France are coming from NATO.

Mohoender

02-01-2010, 06:30 AM

In my games France surrenders to NATO in early 2000 after a short, but hard fought air and naval battle. NATO sinks the french navy including all ssn and ssbn, hits french irbm's and nukes Paris.

I can accept that but why that late??? How did NATO managed to do that in 2000????

James Langham

01-02-2011, 04:31 PM

Reading through the old posts to look for things I've missed for my background and thought I would put in my notes on the French Foreign Legion:

1999
n a cynical policy the French accept many foreigners living in France into the Foreign Legion (although the period of service required for French citizenship is extended from 3 years to 5 from 1st January). Training is brutal and almost all the foreign volunteers are posted to the Middle East (where the French government thinks they are far enough away not to cause trouble). This has the benefit for the French of gathering up a lot of violent foreigners who are in France illegally (strength rises from 7,000 to a peak of 40,000). The volunteers gain French citizenship provided they can survive their service..

Targan

01-02-2011, 09:43 PM

I can accept that but why that late??? How did NATO managed to do that in 2000????

Very good question. I'm assuming that campaign had a very different Twilight War timeline compared to canon.

Mohoender

02-10-2011, 06:00 PM

This is only thoughts and units are given at full strength.

LÃ©gion EtrangÃ¨re
With time, the Legion EtrangÃ¨re had been seriously reduced but with the war, it expended again reaching as many as 17970 Manpower in the course of the war (Still this is only one third of the number of troop it had counted in 1940). Moreover, unlike what was done prior to the conflict, it was formed into an independent combat formation.
- DÃ©tachement de la LÃ©gion EtrangÃ¨re Ã* Mayotte (DLEM) : 250 Men
Heir to the troops that were established at Madagascar, this unit has been moved out of Mayotte when it became obvious that French troops had to leave the territory. The unit is now established at La Reunion.
- 13e Demi-Brigade de la LÃ©gion EtrangÃ¨re : 1700 Men, 12 VBL, 12 ERC-90, 8 VAB T20, 58 VAB, 6 MO-120
Sometimes before the Twilight War, that unit had been reduced to 800 men but it is expended shortly before the conflict to reach its previous manpower of 1700 Men. To note, reconstitued compagnies are using soft-skinned vehicles such as the P4 and the VLRA.
- 1er RÃ©giment Etranger (1er RE) : 600 Men
A prewar administrative unit, it is upgraded to a combat formation long after the beginning of the war.
- 1er RÃ©giment Etranger du GÃ©nie (1er REG) : 980 Men
A second engineer unit, it is created prior to the war.
- 1er RÃ©giment Etranger Parachutiste (1er REP) : 700 Men, 20 MO120
A light infantry unit, heir to a regiment that was disolved in 1961 the unit is created during the course of the war and, like its predecessor, is given a company of heavy mortar.
- 1er RÃ©giment Etranger de Cavalerie (1er REC) : 900 Men
For thrity years this regiment had been the only survival armored unit of the Legion EtrangÃ¨re and provided the adequate punch when needed. Its AMX-10RC are a match for most tanks except the most modern ones.
o Escadron de Commandement et de Logistique (ECL)
o Escadron d’administration et de soutient (EAS)
o 4e Escadron d’Ã©clairage et d’investigation (EEI, 24 VBL, 4 VAB T20)
o 1er, 2e, 3e et 5e Escadron de Combat (2 VBL, 12 AMX-10RC)
- 2e RÃ©giment Etranger du GÃ©nie (2e REG) : 920 Men
A third engineer regiment, it is created during the war when it became obvious that more of these specialized units were needed.
- 2e RÃ©giment Etranger Parachutiste (2e REP) : 1190 Men, 8 VBL, 8 VAB T20, 58 VAB, 6 MO-120
A true special force regiment, this unit is sent out whenever it is needed.
- 2e RÃ©giment Etranger d’Infanterie (2e REI) : 1230 Men, 16 VBL, 16 VAB T20, 119 VAB, 12 MO-120
This unit of armored infantry existed prior to the war an is often sent along with the 1e REC.
- 2e RÃ©giment Etranger de Cavalerie (2e REC) : 600 Men
Heir to a regiment that had been disolved in 1962, the unit is created again in 1993 and partially equipped with vehicles that had been recently taken out of service. It is a much lighter force than its counterpart.
o Escadron de Commandement et de Logistique (ECL)
o Escadron de Reconnaissance et d’Intervention Anti-Char (ERIAC, 32 VBL)
o 1er Escadron de Combat (3 VBL, 12 ERC-90)
o 2e et 3e Escadron de Combat (12 AML-90)
- 3e RÃ©giment Etranger Parachutiste (3e REP) : 500 Men
The smallest of the three paratrooper regiment, heir to a short lived unit dissolved in 1955, it is constituted late in the war.
- 3e RÃ©giment Etranger d’Infanterie (3e REI) : 800 Men, 6 VAB T20, 39 VAB
An infantry unit, it is only equipped with a small number of armored vehicles.
- 4e RÃ©giment Etranger (4e RE) : 800 Men
Before the conflict that unit was the instruction regiment of the Legion EtrangÃ¨re. With the conflict it was given full combat capability but remains light infantry.
- 5e RÃ©giment Mixte du Pacifique (5e RMP) : 600 Men
Heir to the Â« RÃ©giment du Tonkin Â», the unit had lost his name in 1984 but was again renamed RMP shortly before the war. The unit is located in the Pacific and allies engineers to infantry.
- 6e RÃ©giment Etranger du GÃ©nie (6e REG) : 750 Men
The most ancient engineer unit, the regiment is heir to the historical 6e REI.
- 11e RÃ©giment Etranger d’Infanterie (11e REI) : 1000 Men
- 12e RÃ©giment Etranger d’Infanterie (12e REI) : 1000 Men
These two motorized regiments (the 11e and 12e) had been created at the beginning of the Twilight War. Each is equipped with P4, VLRA, GBC and 6 heavy mortars.
- 21e RÃ©giment des Volontaires Etranger (21e RVE) : 1100 Men
- 22e RÃ©giment des Volontaires Etranger (22e RVE) : 1240 Men
- 23e RÃ©giment des Volontaires Etranger (23e RVE) : 1080 Men
When the RVEs were created (after the first nukes had fallen and mostly from the first wave of refugees), these last baddly equipped units were not considered true members of the Legion by the others. In that, they had a common point with there WW2 counterparts. However, also like their WW2 counterparts, they fight surprisingly well when needed and finally earn their place among the Foreign Legion.

Mohoender

02-11-2011, 08:15 AM

ARMEE DE Lâ€™AIR
With the increasing tensions that existed before the Twilight War, France greatly increased its air force, reestablishing a number of units that had been dissolved over time. This was achieved by the introduction of new aircrafts but also through the implementation of a modernization program that allowed for a rapid extension of the ArmÃ©e de lâ€™Air at an affordable cost. On one hand, the Rafale program was accelerated, the Mirage 2000 entered the line in greater number and the Mirage III/5 were modernized to the Mirage 50M standards. On the other hand, many units were maintained as several historical squadrons were activated again. The bomber component was maintained and expended again.

Although this OOB is fictionnal, all units and bases have existed or exist.

- BA113 Saint Dizier
o 1er Escadre de Chasse (1er EC)
EC 1/1 Corse : Jaguar (dissolved in 1966)
EC 2/1 Morvan : Jaguar (dissolved in 1966)
o 7e Escadre de Chasse (7e EC)
EC 1/7 Provence : Rafale
EC 2/7 Argonne : Rafale
EC 3/7 Languedoc : Rafale
o 94e Escadre de Bombardement (94e EB)
EB 2/94 Marne : Mirage IV (dissolved in 1988)
- BA102 Dijon
o 2e Escadre de Chasse (2e EC)
EC 1/2 Cigognes : Rafale
EC 2/2 CÃ´te dâ€™Or : Mirage 2000
EC 3/2 Alsace : Mirage 2000
EC 4/2 Coq Gaulois : Mirage 2000 (dissolved 1950)
- BA103 Cambrais
o 12e Escadre de Chasse (12e EC)
EC 1/12 Cambresis : Mirage F1
EC 2/12 Picardie : Mirage 2000
EC 3/12 Cornouaille : Mirage 2000
- BA104 Le Bourget
- BA105 Evreux
o 64e Escadre de Transport (64e ET)
ET 1/64 Bearn : Transall
ET 2/64 Anjou : Transall
ET 3/64 Bigorre : Noratlas (dissolved in 1981)
- BA106 Bordeaux Merignac Â« Capitaine Croci Â»
o 92e Escadre de Bombardement (92e EB)
EB 1/92 Bourgogne : Mirage 2000D (dissolved in 1974)
EB 2/92 Aquitaine : Mirage 2000D (dissolved in 1974)
- BA107 Villacoublay
o 65e Escadre de Transport (65e ET)
ET 1/65 VendÃ´me : Broussard, Twin Otter
ETE 2/65 Rambouillet : TBM-700
ETC 3/65 Commercy : ATR-42
- BA110 Creil
o 10e Escadre de Chasse (10e EC)
EC 1/10 Parisis : Mirage F1 (dissolved in 1985)
EC 2/10 Seine : Mirage F1 (dissolved in 1985)
EC 3/10 Loire : Mirage 50M (dissolved in 1985)
- BA112 Reims
o 30e Escadre de Chasse (30e EC)
EC 1/30 Valois : Mirage F1
EC 2/30 Normandie-Niemen : Mirage F1
EC 3/30 Lorraine : Mirage F1
o 62e Escadre de Transport (62e ET)
ET 1/62 Vercors : Transall (dissolved in 1978)
ET 2/62 Anjou : Noratlas (dissolved in 1978)
ET 3/62 Ventoux : Broussard, TBM-700 (dissolved in 1974)
- BA115 Orange
o 5e Escadre de Chasse (5e EC)
EC 1/5 VendÃ©e : Mirage 2000
EC 2/5 Ile-de-France : Rafale
EC 3/5 Comtat Venaissin : Mirage 2000
o 91e Escadre de Bombardement (91e EB)
EB 3/91 Cevennes : Mirage 2000D (dissolved in 1983)
- BA116 Luxeuil
o CITAC 339 : TBM-700
o 4e Escadre de Chasse (4e EC)
EC 1/4 DauphinÃ© : Mirage 2000D
EC 2/4 La Fayette : Mirage 2000D
EC 3/4 Flandres : Mirage 2000D
EC 4/4 Ardennes : Mirage 2000 (dissolved in 1950)
o 94e Escadre de Bombardement (94e EB)
EB 3/94 Arbois : Mirage 2000D (dissolved in 1983)
- BA118 Mont de Marsan
o ECE 5/330 : Rafale
o 91e Escadre de Bombardement (91e EB)
EB 1/91 Gascogne : Mirage IV
o 93e Escadre de Ravitaillement en Vol (93e ERV)
ERV 3/93 Landes : KC135
- BA120 Cazaux
o ETO nÂ°1 : Alpha Jet
o ETO nÂ°2 : Alpha Jet
o 8e Escadre de Chasse (8e EC)
EC 1/8 Saintonge : Alpha Jet
EC 2/8 Nice : Alpha Jet
o 91e Escadre de Bombardement (91e EB)
EB 2/91 Bretagne : Mirage IV
- BA123 OrlÃ©ans
o CIET 340 : Transall, Hercules
o 61e Escadre de Transport (61e ET)
ET 1/61 Tourraine : Transall
ET 2/61 Franche-ComtÃ© : Hercules
ET 3/61 Poitou : Transall
- BA124 Strasbourg
o 33e Escadre de Reconnaissance (33e ER)
ER 1/33 Belfort : Mirage F1
ER 2/33 Savoie : Mirage F1
ER 3/33 Moselle : Mirage F1
ER 4/33 Fumasol : Mirage 50M
- BA125 Istres
o 93e Escadre de Ravitaillement en Vol (93e ERV)
ERV 1/93 Aunis : KC135
- BA128 Metz
o 54e Escadre Electronique (54e EE)
EE 1/54 Dunkerque : Puma, Transall
- BA132 Colmar
o 13e Escadre de Chasse (13e EC)
EC 1/13 Artois : Mirage 50M
EC 2/13 Alpes : Mirage 50M
EC 3/13 Auvergne : Mirage F1
- BA133 Nancy
o 3e Escadre de Chasse (3e EC)
EC 1/3 Navarre : Jaguar
EC 2/3 Champagne : Jaguar
EC 3/3 Ardennes : Jaguar
- BA135 Cognac
o EFMS : Fouga Magister
o GE 315 : Fouga Magister, Epsilon
o 6e Escadre de Chasse (6e EC)
EC 1/6 Ouarsenis : Mirage 50M (dissolved in 1960)
EC 2/6 Oranie : Mirage 50M (dissolved in 1960)
- BA136 Toul
o 11e Escadre de Chasse (11e EC)
EC 1/11 Roussillon : Jaguar
EC 2/11 Vosges : Jaguar
EC 3/11 Corse : Jaguar
- BA141 Toulouse
o GE 316 : Alpha Jet
o CIET 340 : Hercules
o 9e Escadre de Chasse (9e EC)
EC 1/9 Limousin : Mirage F1 (dissolved in 1965)
EC 2/9 Auvergne : Mirage F1 (dissolved in 1965)
- BA188 Djibouti
o 21e Escadre de Chasse (21e EC)
EAA 2/21 AurÃ¨s : Jaguar (dissolved in 1964)
o 30e Escadre de Chasse (30e EC)
EC 4/30 Vexin : Mirage F1
- BE701 Salon de Provence
o DV 05/312 : Tucano, Epsilon
- BE702 Avord
o GE319 : TBM-700
o EFIPN 307 : Fouga Magister
o 36e Escadre de DÃ©tection AÃ©roportÃ©e (36e EDA)
EDA 1/36 Berry : E-3 Sentry
EDA 2/36 Nivernais : E-3 Sentry
o 93e Escadre de Ravitaillement en Vol (93e ERV)
ERV 2/93 Sologne : KC135
o 94e Escadre de Bombardement (94e EB)
EB 1/94 Guyenne : Mirage 2000D
- BE705 Tours
o GE 314 : Alpha Jet
- BE725 Chamberry
o CIEH 341 : Ecureuil
- BE745 Aulnat
o GE 313 : Fouga Magister (dissolved in 1985)

Mohoender

02-14-2011, 07:57 PM

You'll need this for what follows.;)

DA : Division Alpine (Alpine Division)
DAM : Division AÃ©romobile (Airmobile Division)
DB : Division BlindÃ©e (Armored Division)
DI : Division dâ€™Infanterie (Infantry Division)
DIM : Division dâ€™Infanterie MobilisÃ©e (Reserve Infantry Division)
DIMa : Division dâ€™Infanterie de Marine (Naval Infantry Division)
DLB : Division LÃ©gÃ¨re BlindÃ©e (Light Armored Division)
DP : Division Parachutiste (Airborne Division)
BSPP : Brigade des Sapeur-Pompiers de Paris (Paris Fire Brigade)
DBLE : Demi-Brigade de la LÃ©gion EtrangÃ¨re (Half-Brigade of the Foreign Legion)
RA : RÃ©giment dâ€™Artillerie (Artillery Regiment)
RAMa : RÃ©giment dâ€™Artillerie de Marine (Naval Artillery Regiment)
RCR : RÃ©giment de Circulation RoutiÃ¨re (MP Regiment, pretty much)
RCS : RÃ©giment de Commandement et de Soutien (Command and Support Regiment)
RDP : RÃ©giment de Dragons Parachutistes (Airborne Regiment)
RE : RÃ©giment Etranger (Administrative Regiment of the Foreign Legion)
REC : RÃ©giment Etranger de Cavalerie (Light Armored Rgt of the Foreign Legion)
REG : RÃ©giment Etranger du Genie (Engineer Regiment of the Foreign Legion)
REI : RÃ©giment Etranger dâ€™Infanterie (Infantry Regiment of the Foreign Legion)
REP : RÃ©giment Etranger Parachutiste (Airborne Regiment of the Foreign Legion)
RG : RÃ©giment du GÃ©nie (Engineer Regiment)
RH : RÃ©giment de Hussards (Armored Recon Regiment)
RHC : RÃ©giment dâ€™HÃ©licoptÃ¨res de Combat (Helicopter Regiment)
RIMAP : RÃ©giment dâ€™Infanterie de Marine du Pacifique (Naval Infantry Regiment)
RMat : RÃ©giment du MatÃ©riel (Support Regiment)
RMP : RÃ©giment Mixte du Pacifique (Mix Regiment, largely engineer)
RPIMa : RÃ©giment Parachutiste dâ€™Infanterie de Marine (Naval Airborne Regiment)
RSMA : RÃ©giment du Service Militaire AdaptÃ© (Overseas School Regiment)
RT : RÃ©giment du Train (Transport Regiment)
RTrans : RÃ©giment de Transmission (Signal Regiment)
BCS : Bataillon de Commandement et de Soutien (Command and Support Battalion)
BIMa : Bataillon dâ€™Infanterie de Marine (Naval Infantry Battalion)
DLEM : DÃ©tachement de LÃ©gion EtrangÃ¨re Mayotte (Mayotte Foreign Legion Group)

Mohoender

02-14-2011, 08:45 PM

FORCE D’ACTION RAPIDE (FAR/Rapid Deployment Force)
Direct reporting units
o 17e RCS
o 2e RG
o 4e RMat
o 18e RTrans
o 28e RTrans
o 511e RT
o 602e RCR
Combat Units
o 4e DAM : 3800 Men, 94 Gazelle, 52 Puma (at full strength this was about 6000 Men and 240 helicopters, 1 Infantry regiment and 3 helicopter regiments)
o 6e DLB : 4400 Men, 36 AMX-10RC, VBL, VAB
o 9e DIMa : 5900 Men, 26 AMX-10RC, VBL, VAB
o 11e DP : 4200 Men, ERC-90, VBL, VAB
o 27e DA : 4400 Men, 28 ERC-90, VBL, VAB

1re ARMEE
- 1re Escadrille LÃ©gÃ¨re
- 1er RG
- 13e RDP : VBL
- 6e RA (observation)
- 7e RA (CL-289 drones)
- 61e RA : AuF1, TR-F1
- 401e RA : 24 I-Hawk
- 402e RA : 24 I-Hawk
- 403e RA : 24 I-Hawk
- 40e RTrans
- 44e RTrans
- 54e RTrans
- 57e RTrans
- Brigade de Berlin : 1500 Men, 29 AMX-30B2, VBL, VAB

1er CORPS D’ARMEE
Direct reporting units
o 8e RH : VBL, ERC-90
o 7e RHC
o 32e RG
o 3e RA : 8 Pluton
o 15e RA : 8 Pluton
o 54e RA : AMX Bitubes
o 57e RA : AMX Bitubes, AMX Roland
o 1er RMat
o 5e RMat
o 8e RMat
o 43e RTrans
o 516e RT
o 601e RCR
Combat Units
o 1re DB: 5600 Men, 59 AMX-30B2, AMX-10P, VBL, AuF1
o 7e DB: 7700 Men, 96 AMX-30B2, AMX-10P, VBL, AuF1
o 12e DLB: 5800 Men, 44 AMX-10RC, ERC-90, VBL, VAB, TR-F1
o 14e DLB: 7200 Men, 48 AMX-10RC, ERC-90, VBL, VAB, TR-F1

2e CORPS D’ARMEE
Direct reporting units
o 3e RH : VBL, ERC-90
o 2e RHC
o 10e RG
o 12e RA : LRM
o 32e RA : 8 Pluton
o 51e RA : AMX Bitubes, AMX Roland
o 53e RA : AMX Roland
o 74e RA : 8 Pluton
o 2e RMat
o 6e RMat
o 7e RMat
o 20e RT
o 42e RTrans
o 50e RTrans
o 53e RTrans
o 135e RT
o 604e RCR
Combat Units
o 3e DB: 6100 Men, 28 Leclercs, 25 AMX-30 Brenus, AMX-10P, VBL, AuF1
o 5e DB: 7000 Men, 88 AMX-30B2, AMX-10P, VBL, AuF1
o 15e DI: 7800 Men, ERC-90, VBL, VAB, TR-F1

3e CORPS D’ARMEE
Direct reporting units
o 2e RH : 850 Men, VBL, ERC-90
o 6e RHC
o 71e RG
o 152e RI : VBL, AMX-10P
o 3e RAMa : 24 TR-F1
o 4e RA : 8 Pluton
o 58e RA : AMX Bitubes, AMX Roland
o 3e RMat
o 51e RTrans
o 58e RTrans
o 517e RT
o 625e RCR
Combat Units
o 2e DB: 7400 Men, 82 Leclerc, 30 AMX-30 Brenus, AMX-10P, VBL, AuF1
o 10e DB: 6500 Men, 78 AMX-30 Brenus, AMX-10P, VBL, AuF1
o 8e DI: 5600 Men, ERC-90, VBL, VAB, TR-F1

COMMANDEMENT SUPERIEUR ANTILLES-GUYANE
Direct reporting units
o 16e BSC
o 1er RSMA (Martinique): 500 Men
o 2e RSMA (Guadeloupe): 550 Men
o 3e RSMA (Guyane): 700 Men
Combat Units
o 3e REI (Guyane) : 700 Men, 5 VAB T20, 34 VAB
o 9e RIMa (Guyane) : 750 Men
o 33e RIMa (Martinique): 350 Men
o 41e BIMa (Guadeloupe): 350 Men

COMMANDEMENT SUPERIEUR PACIFIQUE*
Direct reporting units
o 42e BSC
o 5e RSMA: 600 Men
Combat Units
o RIMAP-NC : 900 Men, 12 AML-90, 6 MO120
o RIMAP-P : 800Men
* This command never existed and IRL is divided among the Polynesian Command and the New Caledonian Command.. Moroever, the 5e RSMA is a fictiv unit while IRL, there are two GSMA roughly corresponding to a regiment in Manpower.

COMMANDEMENT SUPERIEUR OCEAN INDIEN
Direct reporting units
o 53e BSC
o 4e RSMA: 500 Men
Combat Units
o DLEM : 250 Men
o 2e RPIMa: 500 Men

TROUPES EN AFRIQUE
Direct reporting units
o 10e BSC (Djibouti)
Combat Units
o 13e DBLE (Djibouti) : 1100 Men, 8 VBL, 9 ERC90, 6 VAB T20, 36 VAB, 5 MO120
The Demi-Brigade de la LÃ©gion EtrangÃ¨re had been reduced to 800 men but it is expended shortly before the conflict to reach its previous manpower of 1700 Men. After being sent to the Middle East, it is withdrawn to Djibouti.
o 5e RIAOM (Djibouti) : 800 Men, 14 ERC-90, 12 VAB, 4 TR-F1, 4 MO120
o 6e BIMa (Gabon) : 600 Men, 3 AML-90
o 23e BIMa (Senegal) : 600 Men, 12 AML-90
o 43e BIMa (CÃ´te d’Ivoire) : 450 Men, 12 AML-90, 14 VAB

COMMANDEMENT DE LA LEGION ETRANGERE
Direct reporting units
o 1er RE
o 4e RE

1er COMANDEMENT LOGISTIQUE (Logistic Command)
Direct reporting units
o 121e RT
o 503e RT
o 505e RT
o 515e RT
o 525e RT

1re REGION MILITAIRE (Paris)
-Direct reporting units
o 101e RT (Reserve)
o BSPP : 5600 Men
Combat Units
o 24e RI : VBL, PVP
o 102e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

2e REGION MILITAIRE (Lille)
Direct reporting units
o 15e RG Air (Toul)
o 102e RT (Reserve)
Combat Units
o 43e RI
o 108e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 112e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

3e REGION MILITAIRE (Rennes)
Direct reporting units
o 103e RT (Reserve)
Combat Units
o 41e RI
o 109e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 131e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 141e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

4e REGION MILITAIRE (Bordeaux)
Direct reporting units
o 45e RG Air (Toulouse)
o 104e RT (Reserve)
Combat Units
o 111e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 115e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

5e REGION MILITAIRE (Lyon)
Direct reporting units
o 105e RT (Reserve)
Combat Units
o 114e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 127e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 152e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

6e REGION MILITAIRE (Metz)
Direct reporting units
o 106e RT (Reserve)
Combat Units
o Division du Rhin : 8500 Men, 12 AML-90, TR-F1, MO120 (part Reserve)
o 104e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB
o 110e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

7e REGION MILITAIRE (Marseille)
Direct reporting units
o 25e RG Air (Istres)
o 107e RT (Reserve)
Combat Units
o 72e BIMa
o 151e DIM (Reserve): AML-90, AMX-13, AMX-VCI, VAB

This OOB is as complete as possible and almost entirely accurate (Nevertheless, I left aside many companies). Don't pay attention to the Manpowers, they are solely mines. However, the equipments available are quite accurate I think. It is impossible to have the entire French armored force equipped with Leclerc. AMX-30B2 will still be very common and the AMX-30 Brenus will see more widespread diffusion. About tank numbers they are much higher than in the NATO book because the French Army didn't participate that much into the war, because, tank production might still be going on and because a French DB had between 140 and 210 tanks.

Most of the Foreign Legion was integrated into larger units. Then, they might have been dispatched to the Middle-East as in NATO sourcebbok. However, it is highly doubtful to have the FAR sent entirely to the Middle East (France didn't have the ships to carry them anyway). It was never intended for that and would have been sent to Germany instead (the Theater for which it was designed). Moreover, you don't send half of your helicopter force out. Instead, a large unit like the division "Daguet" sent during the Gulf War could certainly have been formed.

Last, about the DIM, they are equipped mostly with older equipments phased out from the regular units but some might have also a handful of more modern equipments. In addition, to what I indicated, they might use Jeeps (Hotchkiss made), GMC trucks, RCL guns, M101 howitzers...

Outside of the DIM, I doubt that France draw extensively on its reserve except for reinforcements. If any of you ever found the number of 22 reserve division for France, this is a false number. By 1989, they were only the 14 I noted. The mistake comes from a military administrative division that brought confusion to many translators.

France can draw on its Gendarmerie for internal security and that is 100.000 Men with an additional 40.000/50.000 Reserve.

At last, there are the Belgian units (Regulars and Gendarmerie). I'll try to figure them out.

Mohoender

02-14-2011, 10:27 PM

Here is what I could find for the Belgian component. I ruled out most of the flemmish units and the two divisions are running at half their normal strength.

BELGIAN CORPS
Direct reporting units
o 1st Engineer Battalion: 300 Men, 4 M48 AVLB
o 17th Engineer Battalion: 250 Men
o 14th Anti-aircraft Battalion: 150 Men, 16 Gepard
o 43rd Anti-aircraft Battalion: 200 Men, 10 I-Hawk
o 13th Artillery Group : 750 Men, 5 M110, 14 M109
Combat Units
o 1e Compagnie dâ€™Equipes SpÃ©ciales de Reconnaissance (ESR) : 100 Men
o Chasseurs Ardennais : 350 Men
o Para-commando Regiment : 1050 Men, 19 Scorpion, 8 Howitzers
o 1er Regiment des Guides : 250 Men, 15 Leopard 1
o 2e Regiment de Chasseur Ã* Cheval : 200 Men, 11 Leopard 1
o 1er Regiment de Chasseur Ã* Cheval : 400 Men, Scorpion, Spartan
o 4e Regiment de Chasseur Ã* Cheval : 500 Men, Scimitar, Spartan
o 1st Belgian Division (Mech) : 4000 Men, M113, AIFV, M109
o 16th Belgian Division (Mech) : 4600 Men, M113, AIFV, M109
BELGIAN TERRITORIAL UNITS
Direct reporting units
o 11th Engineer Battalion: 250 Men
o 27th Engineer Battalion: 350 Men
Combat Units
o RÃ©giment de Lanciers â€“ Limbourg : 400 Men
o RÃ©giment des Carabiniers Cyclistes : 500 Men
o RÃ©giment Territorial â€“ Liege : 800 Men
o RÃ©giment Territorial â€“ Namur : 650 Men
o RÃ©giment Territorial â€“ Brabant : 500 Men
o RÃ©giment Territorial â€“ Hainaut : 550 Men
o RÃ©giment Territorial â€“ Luxembourg : 650 Men

Mohoender

02-17-2011, 04:21 PM

I realized today that I already posted a French Orbat. Therefore, consider this one as an updated one. As a last element here is the Orbat for the Gendarmerie Nationale before the war. Overseas Gendarmerie is subject to caution with the only accurate manpower being these of Polynesia and ambassies.

GSIGN (Groupement de sÃ©curitÃ© et d'intervention de Gendarmerie nationale/Special Forces)
GSPR (Presidential Security) 80 Men
GIGN (Counter Terrorist Unity) : 180 Men
EPIGN (Airborne Squadron of the Gendarmerie National) : 135 Men

Garde RÃ©publicaine (Republican Guard)
RÃ©giment de Cavalerie : 570 Cavalry
1e RÃ©giment d’Infanterie : 1000 Men
2e RÃ©giment d’Infanterie : 1300 Men

GSAN (Military nuclear sites protection) : Manpower unknown

Gendarmerie de l’Armement (Arsenals protection) : 350 Men

Gendarmerie de l’Air (On Military Base)
North Group (HQ on BA107 Villacoublay) : 550 Men
South Group (HQ on BA106 Nordeaux-Merignac) : 400 Men

Gendarmerie des Transports AÃ©rien (On Civilian Airports)
North Group : 440 Men
South Group : 400 Men
Overseas : 160 Men

Gendarmerie Maritime (Coastal Protection and patrol)
Chanel & North Sea : 240 Men, 2 Medium Patrol Crafts, 4 Light Patrol Crafts
Mediterranean : 230 Men, 1 Medium Patrol Craft, 8 Light Patrol Crafts
Atlantic : 400 Men, 9 Light Patrol Crafts
Paris : 120 Men
Guadeloupe : 15 Men, 1 Medium Patrol Craft
Guyana : 15 Men, 2 Light Patrol Crafts
Martinique : 15 Men, 1 Light Patrol Craft
Mayotte : 15 Men, 1 Light Patrol Craft
New Caledonia : 30 Men, 1 Light Patrol Craft
Polynesia : 15 Men, 1 Medium Patrol Craft
St. Pierre & Miquelon : 15 Men

GBGM (Groupement BlindÃ© de Gendarmerie Mobile/1e RÃ©gion Militaire)
Group 1/1 : 950 Men, 14 AML-90, 28 VBC-90, 32 AMX-VCI, 44 VBRG
Group 2/1 : 600 Men
Group 3/1 : 650 Men

LÃ©gion de Gendarmerie Mobile (Mobile Gendarmery Legions)*
2e LGM (4e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1800 Men, AML-90, VBRG
3e LGM (3e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1800 Men, AML-90, VBRG
4e LGM (3e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1700 Men, AML-90, VBRG
5e LGM (5e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1550 Men, AML-90, VBRG
6e LGM (7e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1350 Men, AML-90, VBRG
7e LGM (6e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1900 Men, AML-90, VBRG
8e LGM (6e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1200 Men, AML-90, VBRG
9e LGM (2e RÃ©gion Militaire) : 1200 Men, AML-90, VBRG
* I have not been able to find out how many AML and VBRG were in each LGM. In any case the number of vehicles was not above 15. I can’t say were they will be mobilized but I found 46 Reserve Squadron of the Gendarmerie National that will with no doubt be mobilized for a total of 6900 Men.

Gendarmerie DÃ©partementale (Local Gendarmery, equipped with civilian vehicles. It is in organized among 22 Legions)
1re LÃ©gion (Paris and surroundings)
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Alsace
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Aquitaine
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Auvergne
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Basse-Normandie
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Bourgogne
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Bretagne
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Centre
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Champagne-Ardenne
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Corse
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Franche-ComtÃ©
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Haute Normandie
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Languedoc-Roussillon
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Limousin
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Lorraine
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Midi-PyrÃ©nÃ©es
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Nord-Pas-de-Calais
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Provence-Alpes-CÃ´te d’Azur
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Pays de la Loire
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Picardie
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Poitou-Charentes
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - RhÃ´ne-Alpes
LÃ©gion de gendarmerie dÃ©partementale - Wallonie-Luxembourg (Doesn't exist)
* I have not been able to find the manpower of the various legions because they are composed of 3341 Brigades with each one of them counting between 6-49 personnels. However, including the reserve, the total Manpower should be around 100000 with an average of 4500 personnels in each Legion. Obviously, the Legion Wallonie-Luxembourg doesn’t exist but it should have been created from the former Belgian Royal Gendarmerie. Finally, if you ask yourself what Legion is covering the Flemish land, it should be the Legion Nord-Pas-de-Calais. Saarland would come under the jurisdiction of the Legion Lorraine.

Gendarmerie d’Outre-mer (Overseas Gendarmery)
Guadeloupe Group : 600 Men, 1 AS-355, VBRG
Martinique Group : 600 Men, 1 AS-355, AML-90, VBRG
La RÃ©union Group : 600 Men, 1 AS-355, AML-90, VBRG
New Caledonia Group : 850 Men, 2 AS-355, AML-90, VBRG
Guyane Group : 800, 3 AS-355, AML-90, VBRG
Polynesia Group: 250 Men, VBRG
Ambassy Guards: 280 Men

Mohoender

02-17-2011, 04:33 PM

One last thing about France and its post-nukes capabilities concern the police force (140.000 Men and Women).

I would consider them to be unreliable and corrupt with the exception of the CRS (Compagnies RÃ©publicaines de SecuritÃ©). These (15.000 Men/no Women) are tasked with maintaining civil order and should remain loyal to the government.

pmulcahy11b

02-17-2011, 05:21 PM

Speaking of nuclear warheads, do you think France used all of hers up in the nuclear exchange? If not, who has control of them now?

Legbreaker

02-17-2011, 07:53 PM

Would France have fired any nukes? Technically they're not at war with anyone....

pmulcahy11b

02-17-2011, 09:11 PM

Would France have fired any nukes? Technically they're not at war with anyone....

I figure there would at least be some tit-for-tat nuking.

Legbreaker

02-17-2011, 09:36 PM

I can see the reasoning behind that, but wouldn't that potentially draw them into open warfare? Would the French people stand for that given their otherwise neutral stance?

Personally I'm all for the French getting stroppy about being nuked a few times, but there's politicians involved....

Mohoender

02-18-2011, 01:45 AM

About the nukes, I would think that they are fully in control of the French government with the manpower among protection units being increased.

About their use, I think that this will be limited and will depend on whom has targeted France.

I don't see the Soviet doing it because what would be their point. If USSR hits France, public opinion will bring the country into the war. According to French doctrine. The 18 missiles on the Plateau d'Albion will be sent at a range of targets in Eastern Europe. Then, a number of SLBM will be sent at USSR itself while tactical nukes will be used in support of NATO.

If NATO hits France, I can see a limited answer by the French targeted at highly sensitive targets (may be no more than two or three). As a former NATO member they will know of targets/emergency procedures that remain remote to the soviets. That could explain why France was not hard hit.

Whatever, as France and Belgium are the lightest hit, something stop them from being targeted. Indead, given the idea that Marseille has survived, it implies that not even all the refineries have been targeted.

I also think that they might have lost a number of their SSBN but they might have 1 recently commissioned and 1 under construction. At last, they might have used a small number of tactical nukes (probaly Hades missiles or ASMP cruise missiles) during their progression to the Rhine but I doubt it as it would made France a target.

About nukes locations:
- ten ASMP on each aircraft carriers.
- the remaining ASMP will be located at the nuclear dedicated airbase (more could be in limited production)
- 120 HadÃ¨s missile with 30 TEL. Out of these 30 at least will be equipped with nuclear warheads while the remaining ones carry conventional warheads (more missile under production)
- 18 S3 Missile located on the Plateau d'Albion (possibly replaced by land based M45).
- 80 M4 Missiles on the 5 remaining Le Redoutable-class (16 more might be on le Redoutable itself if you assume that the submarine was not decomissioned in 1991)
- 32 to 48 missile on the 2/3 Le Triomphant-class (I tend to assume that work on Le vigilant accelerated. After all the game has a Richelieu Aircraft Carrier that had been cancelled while the Charles de Gaulle was delayed). I also tend to consider that Le Terrible is nearing completion.

Nuclear weapons
- ASMP Cruise Missile (carried by Rafale, Super Etendard, Jaguar Mirage IV and Mirage 2000N): they are carrying a TN-81 warhead (100-300kt) with a maximum range of 400km. They can be used against ship with a range of 60km.
- HadÃ¨s Missiles (the Pluton had been phased out in 1993) nuclear warhead TN90 (80kt) with a range of 480km (30 warheads have been built)
- S3 Missiles with TN61 warheads (1.2Mt) and a range of 3500km. You can have them replace by land based M45 as it was intended in 1994 (but cancelled in 1996).
- M4 Missiles with TN71 warheads (6x150kt) and a range of 4500km
- M45 Missiles with TN75 warheads (6x110kt) and a range of 6000km

pmulcahy11b

02-18-2011, 09:30 AM

Well, if they still have a majority of their nukes, France sort of becomes the 1200-pound Gigantopithecus in the room instead of the 800-pound Gorilla.

Rainbow Six

02-18-2011, 09:50 AM

This might have been posted before (I'm at work so haven't had a chance to review the whole thread) but in the event that it hasn't there's an article on the etranger site about the French Air Force which briefly mentions possible French nuclear strikes

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Historical/PGAA1.htm

rcaf_777

02-18-2011, 12:00 PM

As for outside Europe, remember the French presence in Quebec gives them a foothold in North America, and there are also French territories in the Pacific and Going Home states that Senegal is under French control (I think?). So I think the French might be engaged in a small amount of Empire building, although again on the basis of how that can best serve France.

France has the Saint Pierre and Miquelon islands which give it a foothold in North American, the islands have two harbours with larger one being on Saint Pierre which handle the ferry, a 1000 ft runnway and airport and acess to Canada through a small ferry which carrys people only

Mohoender

02-18-2011, 02:12 PM

Well, if they still have a majority of their nukes, France sort of becomes the 1200-pound Gigantopithecus in the room instead of the 800-pound Gorilla.

I agree and that's why I'm having it losing a fair part of its SSBN fleet. However, after the Twilight War, using nukes might not be very high in French agenda.

Legbreaker

02-20-2011, 04:23 PM

I feel that the Soviets are more likely to fire nukes at France than Nato as France were until very recent history a party to Nato. Although they withdrew, it could be argued by some in the USSR that it was nothing more than deception on Nato's part to avoid having all their forces destroyed in the early stages. This would then mean and entire nations forces could be brought to bear on the weakened Pact.

Far feteched? Possibly, but never underestimate stupidity.... :(

Mohoender

02-20-2011, 11:19 PM

I feel that the Soviets are more likely to fire nukes at France than Nato as France were until very recent history a party to Nato.

If it was nuking France for the sake of it, yes. As it is to deny oil refining capability, I would say that chances are equals. Warsaw Pact might fear to have France refining oil for NATO and NATO might fear to have France sending oil to Italy and Warsaw Pact (through Italy and Austria).

The consequences would be very different as well. Warsaw Pact would use ICBM while NATO woud probably focus on cruise missile. That's up to anyone, then. The tex posted by Rainbow makes perfect sense.:)

Legbreaker

02-20-2011, 11:53 PM

Warsaw Pact would use ICBM while NATO woud probably focus on cruise missile.

Unless Nato wanted to frame the Pact for the strikes....
When attacking a neutral country, plausible deniability is vital I'd think, especially when said neutral can nuke you right back again!

WallShadow

02-21-2011, 12:28 PM

Sabiex International, a Belgian corporation, specializes in buying surplus military AFVs and refurbishing/upgrading them. They have a large supply of spare parts for Pact vehicles (T-54/55, T-72, PT-76, BMPs, BTRs, etc), and NATO and French vehicles are part of their inventory also. Located about 15 miles south of Bruxelles and about 7 miles SW of Waterloo.

Another ripe plum in the Belgian territory is the Fabrique National Herstal Corporation in Lieges, which manufactures small arms, machine guns, and grenade launchers and their mountings for vehicles. Could this and the Sabiex facility have escaped destruction? If so, France has an enormous advantage in the reconstruction in the post-whoops era.

Legbreaker

02-21-2011, 04:41 PM

I'm curious to know when they opened their doors, and where their Pact equipment came from...
They may not be such a prize if the bulk of their business came about after 1991.

Mohoender

02-22-2011, 01:56 AM

Here is their website

http://www.sabiex.com/

They would be more involved in NATO/French equipments then. Yes they could have survived especially as Braine L'alleud is on the oposite side of Brussel. If Brussel was nuked because of the NATO HQ, this would be quite far away.

About the FN, it has survived except, of course if you chose to nuke Belgium heavily. Moreover, it is more than possible that the entire Meuse valley has survived with its siderurgy, technical industries...

Moreover, coal mines will reopen on the valley providing more ressources to France. All had been closed in the mid-1970's but mostly because exploitation had become too expensive. With the Twilight War this will no longer be an issue.

boogiedowndonovan

02-22-2011, 12:53 PM

Mohender,

with all the recent developments in Libya, do you recall what forces France deployed to Chad during Operation Manta? Is there an Order of Battle floating around out there?

Mohoender

02-25-2011, 10:25 AM

Mohender,

with all the recent developments in Libya, do you recall what forces France deployed to Chad during Operation Manta? Is there an Order of Battle floating around out there?

I'll check, I have seen something about it.

Mohoender

02-25-2011, 11:03 AM

Quick translation of what I found from the Ministry of Defense

The force reached 3000 men supported by 20 helicopters and 30 aircrafts from air force, army and navy with elements from the following units:

- 2e RIMa (RÃ©giment d’Infanterie de Marine): naval infantry which is army
- 3e RIMa
- 21e RIMa
- 11e RAMa (RÃ©giment d’Artillerie de Marine): naval artillery (also army, don't ask)
- 1er RPIMa (RÃ©giment Parachutiste d’Infanterie de Marine): airborne naval infantry (and to no surprise: army)
- 1er RHP (RÃ©giment de Hussards Parachutistes): airborne armored recon now equipped with ERC-90. Alreeady at the time, I think it was the first regiment to be equipped with this vehicle. After watching pictures I have seen that it was still equipped with AML-60 and AML-90.
- 17e RGP (RÃ©giment de GÃ©nie Parachutiste)
- 35e RAP (RÃ©giment d’Artillerie Parachutiste): airborne Artillery
- RICM (RÃ©giment d’Infanterie de Chars de Marine): naval tank which is army as well (AMX-10RC)
- 2e RHC (RÃ©giment d’HÃ©licoptÃ¨res de Combat): helicopters
- 5e RHC
- DAO (DÃ©tachement d’Assistance OpÃ©rationnelle): support
- Commandos de l’Air (FusCo or Fusilier-Commando): base protection/Army K9

- hÃ©licopters: Gazelle and Puma from ALAT (Aviation LÃ©gÃ¨re de l’ArmÃ©e de Terre),
- Combat aircrafts: Jaguar and Mirage F1
- Transport aircrafts: Transall
- Electronic/Surveillance: BrÃ©guet Atlantic (Navy).

None of these units were at full strength of course. At the time my computer science teachers was sergeant in the 1e RHP (and we were working on Commodore 64 while he was explaining us how fun it was to kick all those Libyan's asses).

Also not to forget, US was quite involved. My cousin was in Chad working for Caterpillar and, according to his saying, several people involved in the USAID and USIS offices were, in fact, CIA or else (If anyones has some serious references to validate his witnessing I'll be happy to know)..

Nice pictures here:
http://www.ecpad.fr/l%E2%80%99operation-manta-au-tchad
The truck with the AMX-10 crossing the river is a Simca-Marmon. Jeeps are Hotchkiss. Then I have seen a GMC along with the VLRA. the 20mm anti air were brand new. The other trucks are Berliet GBC-8. The soldiers equipped with rifles are DAO (FusCo was a mistake on my part) to which FAMAS were not often issued before the 1990's (they were also using the MAT-49), the anti-tank weapon is the LRAC F-1.

http://www.ecpad.fr/operation-manta-au-tchad

Late pictures. The FusCo had been issued the FAMAS