Korea: Summer 2000.

[kato13]

(moved from archive -kato13)

Dogger 02-03-2003, 03:05 PM I'm wondering if anyone has any detailed information on what the T2K situation in Korea was at about the time of the "Going Home" module?


All my T2K material is Ver.1 and my games were/are set in the V.1 world.


The v.1 US Army Vehicle Guide lists the following for Korea in the summer of 2000:


8th US Army

II US Amphib Corps.

4th Marine Division: (23rd Regiment only) 400 men, 7 M60A4 tanks. *(USAVG says this Reg was returned to the US.)

5th Marine Division: 2000 men, 9 M60A4 tanks.

6th Marine Division: (16 Regiment only) 600 men, 4 M60A4 tanks.


II US Corps

7th Infantry Division: (Light) (1st Brigade only) 500 men, 0 tanks

26th Infantry Division: (Light) 5000 men, 3 LAV-75's

45th Infantry Division: 2000 men, 0 tanks.


VI US Corps

2nd Infantry Division: 2000 men, 4 M1 tanks.

25th Infantry Division: (Light) 600 men, 0 tanks.

41st Infantry Division: 2000 men, 0 tanks.

163rd Armored Cavalry Regiment: 600 men, 4 LAV-75's.


So what your looking at, (less 23/4th MarDiv) is a total US troop strength of 15,300 men, with 20 M60A tanks, 4 M1 Abrams, and 7 LAV-75's. Still a formidable force in the world of T2K but a force scattered and in poor shape I would bet.


The USAVG describes the 8th Army as taking quite a beating from tactical nuke strikes in the field. I'm basically wondering if anyone played out or planned a campaign in Korea that moved this situation forward (i.e. 8th Army resumes offensive operations into North Korea, or a "Going Home" scenario)


Comments/Ideas welcom.

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TR 02-03-2003, 05:45 PM I've always thought the deployments for South Korea a little on the skimpy side... there would have had to be more deployments to that area than accounted for. Of course this doesn't calculate Air Force and Naval unit either unfortunatly.


You would figure they would have to have pockets where the 8th was in control (along with the other units), you figure port areas and surrounding farm communities would be big on the list to be controlled.


I always wondered how troops in Korea would break down, i.e. going native vs staying in the rigid militry heiarchy... same for troops in Japan and other nations of course. That's not always accounted for in the game of course...



Until Later


TR

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Dogger 02-03-2003, 06:04 PM Originally posted by TR

I always wondered how troops in Korea would break down, i.e. going native vs staying in the rigid militry heiarchy... same for troops in Japan and other nations of course. That's not always accounted for in the game of course...


Some good points TR...


That brings up other issues as well, for instance, Japan would not be all that hard to reach from Pusan, S. Korea. A lot of troops might have attempted to make the crossing after things fell apart then stay in Korea...anyone remember what condition Japan was in by July 2000?


Also, I wonder what other nations troops wouild have been deployed to Korea? Australia would most likely have sent some SpecOps I would bet.

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TR 02-03-2003, 06:17 PM I would think Thailand and Singapore might contribute forces seeing how they are in the neighborhood they might be in trouble if South Korea fell.


Who knows...



TR

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Jason Weiser 02-03-2003, 09:29 PM Heh,

Well, there was quite a few theatres demanding troops at the time...but yeah, the deployments to Korea are skimpy. I was surprised no Aussies (Perhaps a Btn TF or two) and perhaps a force from Japan and or Canada?

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Matt Wiser 02-04-2003, 01:18 AM The prewar OB for the area was 2 ID for the Army, 8th TFW at Kunsan AB, ROK with two F-16 squadrons, 51st TFW at Osan AB with one F-16 and one A-10 squadron for the AF, with 432nd TFW with two F-16 squadrons at Misawa AB in Japan, 18th Wing at Kadena AB on Okinawa with three F-15C squadrons and an E-3C AWACS squadron. 7th FLT would have USS Kitty Hawk (CV-63) with CVW-5 (VF-21, VF-154 with F-14D, VFA-146 and VFA-147 with F/A-18C, VA-115 with A-6F, VAW-115 with E-2C, VAQ-136 with EA-6B, VS-21 with S-3B, VQ-5 with ES-3A, and HS-12 with SH-60F/HH-60H. SAC had the 43rd BW on Guam with B-52G/KC-135.

3rd Marine Division and 1st MAW on Okinawa with MAW assets at MCAS Iwakuni in Japan, and MCAS Kanehoe, Hawaii.


See the old forum for USS Constellation battle group at Guam.

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pmulcahy 02-04-2003, 09:13 PM Originally posted by Dogger

Some good points TR...


That brings up other issues as well, for instance, Japan would not be all that hard to reach from Pusan, S. Korea. <snip>


It's not a long stretch of water, but it is by no means a quiet stretch, either. You wouldn't want to try it in a small boat; you would have as hard a time as a Cuban refugee headed to Florida. And in winter, it would be hard to not die of exposure in a small boat. My advice would be to get a ship, the larger, the better.

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Dogger 02-05-2003, 01:36 PM Matt,


Some great info there Thanx <S>.



Paul,


I agree about the waters between S.Korea and Japan, my thinking would be that departing units would have done so while there were still large enough ships operating to make the trip in a more or less save manner.


However, that thought makes me wonder about how far feched it might be to run into one of the few soviet attack subs still prowling the Sea of Japan ?

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[Legbreaker]

Having a little time on my hands at the moment I decided to take a look through the archives and found this.

My immediate thoughts were that the Korean War of the early 50's was never actually concluded - there was basically just a ceasefire. Also this was essentially a war between North Korea/China and the United Nations.
With that in mind, I'd be most surprised if we weren't to find all types of nationalities in the area (which would explain what some feel to be minimal US troop numbers). It's quite possible in my mind that many of the neutral countries in the war in Europe are involved here - France, South Africa, Chile, Brasil, Argentina, Japan, and so on. Who knows, you might even find a Swiss unit or two floating about!

[pmulcahy11b]

That's true, there's still just an Armistice -- the longest-lasting one in the world.

Late-1980s and early 1990s (T2K v1, I guess) short-term help would have come from the 25th ID in Hawaii, the 82nd Airborne, 7th ID in California, and later the 9th ID in Washington, as well as the Marines in Japan and Okinawa, and the Special Forces unit in Okinawa. Help from elsewhere at the time was dicey, but might have included the British, Australians, and New Zealanders; there was an outside chance for Singaporean and Japanese help (the latter very dicey -- the Japanese were really big on neutrality at the time and the ROKs still held a grudge against the Japanese for the treatment they got during World War 2). Air support would have come out of Japan, Okinawa, and the Philippines, and three carrier task forces might have shown up rather quickly, including battleships, which were still operational at the time.

In T2K, a lot of that help would not have been available, as they were deployed elsewhere. Korea would have become a forgotten corner of the war, with the troops there largely on their own. But balancing this, the Chinese in T2K would have stayed out of a PRK invasion of South Korea, and the Russians may also have decided they had too much to handle with a war in China and Europe and stayed out of it as well.

An untapped asset in T2K is South Korean guerrilla activity. In the late 1980s, there were some 18,000 Korean Vietnam vets in South Korea -- and South Korean forces were known to be especially vicious in Vietnam. One CSM I had in the Army said, "The ROKs would go into a village, and when they were done, nothing was left." These vets could become trainers for ROK guerrillas or even regular forces drafted into the Army.

[HorseSoldier]

With Japan being in something like France's position in the Pacific, I had the thought that they might be interested in arranging a Going Home scenario for US forces in Korea, though maybe with some strings attached. My personal thought was that they might recruit US forces to provide the muscle for a Japanese attempt to get the Alaska pipeline back up and running -- the big Soviet troop concentration in Anchorage can't really do anything to interfere with the pipeline, which runs well east of there, and by 2000/2001 they're pretty much falling apart anyway.

Any number of alternate missions could be equally plausible, some CONUS and some elsewhere in the Pacific (security/pirate suppression for Japanese merchant ships, etc.). Could be an interesting campaign idea.

[JHart]

I always wondered if China, on the ropes with the Soviets at the gate, asks the Norks to send help to fight the Soviets, or if the Soviets cut a deal with the Norks to keep them out of it.

THe Norks would be in the catbird seat for a little while. China asks for help, the Norks go to the Soviets and say China's offer is on the table, what do you have?

[pmulcahy11b]

I always wondered if China, on the ropes with the Soviets at the gate, asks the Norks to send help to fight the Soviets, or if the Soviets cut a deal with the Norks to keep them out of it.

THe Norks would be in the catbird seat for a little while. China asks for help, the Norks go to the Soviets and say China's offer is on the table, what do you have?

That brings up an interesting possibility -- Second Korean War averted. If the PRK accedes to Chinese demands for help, the North Korean people might, with a significant number of North Korean troops out of the country, attempt a revolution. Though they may be too indoctrinated for that. A revolution in North Korea might also bring up a second interesting possibility -- an invasion of the North by the South "to help." Where would the US be in that one?

[JHart]

The impression of the Norks is that they are well indoctrinated, but as the casualties mount, anything is possible. It'd be a hard sell for propaganda. After 50 years of solid Communist international brotherhood BS, they have to sell the fact the the Soviets our now the enemy.

As for the ROK going north to liberate, they really couldn't until they think China is knocked out. If the DKP sends troops to help China and then the ROK invades, it would be a hell of a mess. China would see it as a stab in the back, as in "The DKP was helping to save our country, we're fighting for our lives, and you go and help to hasten our downfall."



Knowing how paranoid the DKP is, they'd assume it was a plot all along, pack up and try to go home, or even side with the Soviets.
I doubt they would help China unless the have an agreement from the ROK preventing an attack

The US can't really be involved until China falls and it crosses the Rhine.

[Legbreaker]

Keep in mind this is essentially a United Nations show. The US might have troops involved, but it's the UN in charge (officially).
What's happening in Europe technically has no impact on Korea - enemies in other war zones could, technically anyway, be allies in the east...

It is of course extremely unlikely that participants in the fighting elsewhere would send troops to Korea. At most I'd expect a token force of maybe a few dozen MPs, a handful of medical personnel, maybe ten trucks plus drivers attached to the logistics unit of another nation, that sort of thing.

[HorseSoldier]

An ANZAC force seems likely, as was mentioned up thread. Not sure if anyone else in the region is secure enough to contribute forces, but perhaps.

[Legbreaker]

The Australian contingent might be a little light on though since they're occupied in a conflict with Indonesia at the time. Might manage to pull together a Battalion plus supporting units though - say 1000 men including the New Zealanders?

I'm thinking it may be more likely Australia would send Leopard I's to Korea than infantry though as the infantry is more suited to the tropics. On the other hand, Australian tanks haven't been out of the country since Vietnam - they're often seen as too valuable to risk.

[Dog 6]

The Australian contingent might be a little light on though since they're occupied in a conflict with Indonesia at the time. Might manage to pull together a Battalion plus supporting units though - say 1000 men including the New Zealanders?

I'm thinking it may be more likely Australia would send Leopard I's to Korea than infantry though as the infantry is more suited to the tropics. On the other hand, Australian tanks haven't been out of the country since Vietnam - they're often seen as too valuable to risk.


maybe have a Battalion sized task force with say 1 company of Leopard I's, 3-4 of infantry, 1 of mech, a commando/ SF unit and a battery of artillery

[Legbreaker]

With all the necessary supporting units, that's a lot more than battalion sized!
Probably more like 16 leopards plus supporting elements, a company of light motorised infantry (trucks), plus a small logistics unit (maybe 30 men). An 81mm mortar battery or 105mm howitzers from NZ may give a little fire support, and a handful of other assets supplied to give some flexibility. NZ might bring in another couple of infantry companies to round out the formation too, possibly bringing in a few of their Scimitars for recon.

[Rainbow Six]

I'd agree with those that think an ANZAC force is likely to be present in Korea. Leg's suggested composition seems reasonable. Maybe some Canadians attached also (CAANZAC? ANZACCA?)

With regard to other nations, the Survivor's Guide to the UK makes reference to the British 6th Infantry Division (formed from elements of the Hong Kong garrison) linking up with American forces on the Yalu River in the summer of 1997 (can't recall off hand if it mentions the exact month). It's a fairly brief link up however as I seem to recall that the 6th Division is hit quite hard by nuclear strikes later on that summer and retreats back to the Hong Kong / Shenzen area.

(on a side note, the Gurkha Brigade had its own pipe band. I've always thought it would be a neat scene for the American forces on the Yalu to hear the sound of bagpipes in the distance - cue puzzled looks as the pipes gradually get louder and the lead elements of the 6th Division come into view over the horizon...)

Looking at the British Army's late 80's orbat and reconciling that with existing commitments, the cupboard is relatively bare, so I don't think we'd have had anything spare to send directly to Korea unless you advocate adding additional Battalions to the RL orbat to represent formations raised during the War. One could perhaps argue that the British and German units at BATUS in Canada (1st Battalion, Royal Hampshires and 1st Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment for the UK plus two German Battalions) were tasked to form an expeditionary force that was meant to go to Korea but their deployment was initially delayed by lack of shipping then cancelled altogether after the nukes). It's actually as good a reason as I've ever been able to come up with for the presence of those forces in Canada (and the Glosters served with distinction during the first Korean War).

I'm not so sure about the primacy of the UN and the presence of troops from neutral nations though. Whilst it's correct to state that the first Korean War was a War between the UN and North Korea / China (I'm sure I read somewhere that happened because the Soviets didn't use their veto as they were boycotting the UN at the time) I think that by the time of a Second Korean War in T2K the UN would have been rendered more or less impotent, if indeed it was still in existence (I'm going from memory here, but isn't it mentioned in some of the published material that the UN as an organisation falls apart relatively early on in the War - might have been one of the NATO vehicle guides or maybe even Armies of the Night?)

Therefore I think the US would be the one firmly in the driving seat in Korea. Even if nominally at least hostilities were still covered under a UN mandate, at all practical levels other countries would view the fighting as an extension of the conflict in Europe (and elsewhere). I think it highly unlikely, therefore, that troops from any neutral nations would deploy under a UN banner.

Just some thoughts...

Cheers

[pmulcahy11b]

Looking at the British Army's late 80's orbat and reconciling that with existing commitments, the cupboard is relatively bare, so I don't think we'd have had anything spare to send directly to Korea unless you advocate adding additional Battalions to the RL orbat to represent formations raised during the War.

I would think that new British units would be kept at home or sent to Europe, with possibly some of them going to the Middle East. I don't see them going to Korea. I forgot about the 6th, though.

[pmulcahy11b]

(on a side note, the Gurkha Brigade had its own pipe band. I've always thought it would be a neat scene for the American forces on the Yalu to hear the sound of bagpipes in the distance - cue puzzled looks as the pipes gradually get louder and the lead elements of the 6th Division come into view over the horizon...)

Here's an interesting thought: a helicopter assault like that in Apocalypse Now, but with bagpipes pouring from the helicopters' speakers...

[Rainbow Six]

I would think that new British units would be kept at home or sent to Europe, with possibly some of them going to the Middle East. I don't see them going to Korea. I forgot about the 6th, though.

I agree. With all that would be going on, I really don't see any sort of British involvment in Korea other than the 6th Division and (maybe) a handful of Special Forces.

[Legbreaker]

It seems we've all been a bit hasty.
This from the Yellow book, edition 2.2...
Page 9 under 1993
Sporadic antigovernment rioting in Pyongyang and other large cities force the North Korean government to make further concessions toward a free market economy.
Page 237
Korea: The newly reunified Republic of Korea came to the assistance of the Chinese early in the war and was subjected to limited nuclear attacks by the Soviets. Although the capital at Seoul was destroyed and several ports were severely damaged (they are now devastated), most of the rest of the country is organized under martial law, and is an Island of stability In a sea of disorganization. Resuming its reputation as the-Hermit Kingdom, Korea is now extremely xenophobic and distrustful of strangers.
However, we have numerous references in a number of books (vehicle guides mainly) of US units fighting North Korean and Soviet troops. On the other hand we seem to have some conflict - Some sources say US troops were fighting North Korean units, but the above says the country was unified early in the war... :S

It also appears the US was sent in as a response to North Korean aggression (but it's a bit vague on detail - could even have been the US who moved first).

Now I've spent a few hours re-reading and researching, I'm of the opinion that the UN was NOT involved. Therefore, any nation other than the US or the Koreans themselves are extremely unlikely to be present/have participated.

It is now my opinion that the US units located in central Korea in 2000 are rather unwelcome too based on the last line of the quote above. The 2nd ID may be tolerated, having long association with the country, but the National Guard units are another matter.
Mind you, the half dozen or so Soviet units are probably just as uncomfortable...

I was also totally unable to find any reference of the UK 6th actually making contact with US units or getting anywhere even remotely near Korea. It appears they were operating elsewhere in China in support of the PLA.
There is certainly no mention whatsoever in any version of any other nation participating in the far east (hopefully somebody can prove me wrong on that).

Hmm, further hours trawling through Challenge found this in issue #36 on page 3.Korea: The characters were members of the 8th US Army (or of allied Chinese, South Korean, or Australian units)...

[Targan]

It seems we've all been a bit hasty.
This from the Yellow book, edition 2.2...


However, we have numerous references in a number of books (vehicle guides mainly) of US units fighting North Korean and Soviet troops. On the other hand we seem to have some conflict - Some sources say US troops were fighting North Korean units, but the above says the country was unified early in the war... :S

The first edition timeline and the edition 2.2 timeline are not the same. I don't think Korea was reunified pre-Twilight War in the v1 timeline.

[Rainbow Six]

I was also totally unable to find any reference of the UK 6th actually making contact with US units or getting anywhere even remotely near Korea. It appears they were operating elsewhere in China in support of the PLA.

It's mentioned in the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom, specifically page eight.

"In the Far East, the Chinese launched a major offensive in the
summer. The 6th Division was attached to Chinese forces driving
towards northeast China. In July, it was transferred to the 31stArmy
and linked up with the Americans on the Yalu River soon after.
At this time, the Sino-Soviet nuclear exchange began, and the
division took heavy losses from several tactical nuclear strikes.
The survivors were withdrawn, in surprisingly good order, to southern
China."

The order of battle for the British Army in the SGUK has the Division located in South China as of 1 January 2001, with a manpower of 1,400. The orbat is very, very vague on details of which units made up 6th Division...for anyone that's interested below is something I put together a while ago

6th UK Infantry Division

C Squadron, Special Boat Service
41 Commando, Royal Marines*
660 Squadron, Army Air Corps
7 Intelligence Company, Intelligence Corps

26th Infantry Brigade
1st Battalion, Royal Scots
10th Battalion, Parachute Regiment (TA)
2nd Battalion, Royal Hong Regiment (equivalent to TA)*

48th Gurkha Infantry Brigade
2nd Battalion, 2nd King Edward VII’s Own Gurkha Rifles
1st Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh’s Own Gurkha Rifles
2nd Battalion, 7th Duke of Edinburgh's Own Gurkha Rifles*
1st Battalion, The Royal Hong Kong Regiment (equivalent to TA)

The Queen's Gurkha Engineers

Plus some Royal Signals (including Gurkha Signals), REME, etc. RAF presence consisted of a helo squadron (operating the Wessex), and a flight of Harriers.

Units marked with a * do not exist IRL; 41 Commando was disbanded in 1981 and 2nd/7th DoE Gurkha Rifles were disbanded in 1988. I'm generally wary about "inventing" new units, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, there weren't a lot of spare resources at that point.

The Hong Kong garrison would have been stripped down to the bare bones in anticipation of the 1997 handover (as happened IRL, and in the T2K World was reflected in the two Gurkha Battalions transferred from HK to the MEFF). In my T2K World I reckoned that the start of the Sino Soviet War would warrant a boost to the HK garrison until handover, so I resurrected the two disbanded units, added a second Battalion to the Royal Hong Kong Regiment, and a Battalion of Territorial paratroopers deployed from the UK. Even then, I think it's a seriously understrength Division, and lacks any artillery.

(IRL there was a British Battalion (the Black Watch as it happened) in HK until handover. I know canon has 1 Royal Scots in Europe, but in my work I've moved the Battalions around a bit. For anyone who wants to stick to canon the 1st Battalion, Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters are, I think, unaccounted for).

Of course, the above refers to v1. As Targan rightly says, there are differences between V1 and V2 (I don't know about 2.2), so the information may be different in V2.

On the subject of V2, the US Army Vehicle Guide lists the 2nd Infantry Division as being based at Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam between 1991 and 1996. Does anyone have any ideas / suggestions as to how that could have happened?

Cheers

[pmulcahy11b]

On the subject of V2, the US Army Vehicle Guide lists the 2nd Infantry Division as being based at Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam between 1991 and 1996. Does anyone have any ideas / suggestions as to how that could have happened?

Cheers

The only way I can account for this is a mistake on the part of the designers. Vietnam would still be strongly in the Soviet sphere of influence in 1991, and probably until at least 1995; after that, Vietnam would probably be on its own.

[Dog 6]

imo some one should work up an Australian obo.

[HorseSoldier]

V2.X timeline just doesn't work on so many levels, really.

[kalos72]

Was v2 written or changed by someone else? It misses in alot of ways actually...I dont use it for much if anything.

[Legbreaker]

It's mentioned in the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom, specifically page eight.
Ah, so it is. The one place I didn't look... :(

There are a few differences between V1 and V2, but overall most of the info (besides timeline) is the same. Unit histories for example are cut and pasted from the V1 vehicle books straight into V2.

I have the feeling that when V2 history was being updated, the intention was for Korean to reunite sometime between 1993 and 1995 but unfortunately this intention wasn't followed through into action and updating unit histories.

Re the Australian involvement, I'm not convinced they should be there since it's not a UN show afterall. Australian troops are engaged against the numerically superior (although technically inferior) Indonesians. I can't see them diverting units away unless there's a damn fine reason (such as UN "request" or really, really stupid government).

[Targan]

Re the Australian involvement, I'm not convinced they should be there since it's not a UN show afterall. Australian troops are engaged against the numerically superior (although technically inferior) Indonesians. I can't see them diverting units away unless there's a damn fine reason (such as UN "request" or really, really stupid government).

What if Australian forces were involved in Korea before the war with Indonesia started?

[Legbreaker]

That could work, but we'd still be left with the high probability of those troops being recalled home as soon as the war with Indonesia heated up. Might be a few advisors left (similar to "the team" in Vietnam), but I can't see whole units.
Besides, it's a war between China and the USSR to begin with, the US appear to have been involved in that area mainly because they already had units in South Korea. I doubt ANYONE would have considered actually entering combat against the other superpower in support of a communist country. Weapons and supplies through an intermediary yes, but troops?

This of course raises the question of why would the Soviets assist the North Koreans in their attack on the South? From deployment dates of various units, and subsequent histories, we can see the attack did not occur until 1997, months after action commenced in Europe. My thoughts are it was an attempt to knock the US troops out of Asia so the Soviet units could be redeployed westward and help stop the Nato advance across eastern Europe.

Any way I look at it, I can't justify Western nations other than the Koreans and US in Korea without United Nations involvement. The UN headquarters were not destroyed until late 1997 when New York was nuked, so it is possible (but I doubt it). The UN may even have relocated itself out of a belligerent country when the nukes were first used. Perhaps the UN still exists in a rather impotent way in say Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or maybe Argentina? A hell of a lot of civilians fled the cities in panic, so I can't see why the UN wouldn't have "temporarily" relocated too...

[Rainbow Six]

What if Australian forces were involved in Korea before the war with Indonesia started?

That sounds reasonable to me. Anyone know when the War with Indonesia actually started?

Perhaps the UN still exists in a rather impotent way in say Australia, New Zealand, South Africa or maybe Argentina? A hell of a lot of civilians fled the cities in panic, so I can't see why the UN wouldn't have "temporarily" relocated too...

Again, sounds reasonable. I'd say the most logical place to relocate to was probably Switzerland. As well as being 100% neutral, Switzerland was already host to a number of UN Missions / Departments

http://www.unog.ch/

[Legbreaker]

I thought briefly about Switzerland, and France, even Japan for a moment, but I feel they might be a bit close to nuke targets.....
France, we'll they're a nuclear armed country and even though they've withdrawn from NATO, they're right in the middle of things with a number of nuclear targets.
Switzerland, well they're even closer to the action and although they're about the most neutral country in the universe, fallout isn't very discriminating. There's also the chance of neighbouring countries "taking a shortcut" so to speak.
Japan I ruled out because they've got US forces based there, and I'm sure air operations over Korea would originate there (as they did in the 50's). Therefore there's a good chance Japan could get nuked also (not to mention the fallout from China drifting across).

The southern hemisphere is probably the best place to go with nuclear war threatening. Almost everywhere in the northern hemisphere feels a bit too risky for my liking...

[Abbott Shaull]

The only way I can account for this is a mistake on the part of the designers. Vietnam would still be strongly in the Soviet sphere of influence in 1991, and probably until at least 1995; after that, Vietnam would probably be on its own.

In V1 there was Soviet unit that was based off there vehicle guide. Maybe someone cut and paste the the wrong things...lol You would of thought the editors would of caught it...

[Abbott Shaull]

The UK forces around Hong Kong and other locations in between there and Australia have served as the base unit of the 6th UK Infantry Division up until hand over of the Colony to China. Just before this the HQ was finally back to the UK as well the last Supports units and the Infantry Brigade they had their for security. It is hard call whether the Division stays puts or moves to the Korea. I would think it would serve as base for Common Wealth type of Division or larger unit that the UK and her 'Colonies' (now former) had made famous. I can see a Division in both location under the UK banner that would have 1 Combat Brigade of UK troops and rest of the Division being made up of Common Wealth troops. Same with the UK involvement in the Middle East. The UK provides the core of the Division with other Common Wealth nation sending troops to beef up the UK commitment.

[pmulcahy11b]

In V1 there was Soviet unit that was based off there vehicle guide. Maybe someone cut and paste the the wrong things...lol You would of thought the editors would of caught it...

GDW was in many ways a mom & pop operation -- they were based out of a converted town house that was primarily given over to the GDW operation, but they often slept and ate where they worked. I can see a few mistakes slipping through. They also outsourced a lot of work, and I can see them looking at all the stuff from the outsourcers with blurred eyes dreading what mistakes they might have made. Just like our web sites have mistakes and I'm sure we all get email telling us about them, you just do your best and hope things are as accurate as possible before you roll them out, and fix them when they're not. GDW didn't have the advantage of the web and email.

[Dog 6]

pmulcahy11b is right. I didn't even get the web until 1998.

[kalos72]

Definitely NOT trying to beat up on GDW! Without them I wouldn't have found this awesome game and I might still be playing D&D! :P

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah after thinking about it today....there was no such thing as cut and paste like we have today when much of this material was published. Sometimes we tend to forget how much civilization has advance since 1984 when most of this material had been published originally. No I can see some one having several sheet of paper hold various OOBs, being called away and then trying to find their location in their work, finding what they thought was right, copy it and then briefly get called away again and then going back to the correct paper work. If they were like many paper offices, they weren't very organized. I can tell you story of professor whose office looks as if it still in the 1970s-80s with the exception of the computer he works on and mini/dorm fridge he has under his desk where he would sit if he didn't have it being used to collect large piles of papers....

Remember when computers were suppose to turn us into paperless society. We are getting their but still a long ways off.

[pmulcahy11b]

If they were like many paper offices, they weren't very organized.

When I visited them in January of 1990, that's one thing I saw immediately -- several tables and desks with papers and maps all over them. It probably didn't help that a visitor showed out of the blue unannounced, but they were very nice about showing me around and giving me a quick peek (not too much) of what they were working on, and asking me questions about what its like to be a soldier, stuff about Korea (unfortunately, I could only tell them unclassified stuff), and what's it's like to shoot things like automatic weapons and grenade launchers and rocket launchers. I got the impression that they were considering doing something about Korea, and I even gave them a possible sourcebook title: Morning Calm (based on the full name of Korea in Hangul: Land of the Morning Calm). I hope I helped.

[Abbott Shaull]

Cool you actually when to their shop...Way Cool.

Yeah that is the one of the tricky thing even today.

How much information is too much information. LOL. You know Paul that one of those things I never thought much about either with what would be considered Classified and what wasn't. Especially for troops such as you that had served in Korea and Germany. Being only based at Fort Bragg not one of those things I had given much thought. Then again I am sure with the internet now, most of the beans have been spilled out of the can...

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah Korea and Panama and Africa were big holes they had left out...

[Dog 6]

Yeah Korea and Panama and Africa were big holes they had left out...



true, but big holes we can fill in. :)

[Legbreaker]

We've got a skeleton of information. Will take some work but I'm sure we can put some meat on dem bones!

[Legbreaker]

ARGH!

Why'd I have to find this thread again and upset all my thoughts of the past couple of months!?

UN/not UN. Small/large Australian presence! It's all getting too hard! :grumble:

[simonmark6]

It's not hard, Leg, if you want lots of Aussies in Korea because you think it'd make a hell of a game, happy days, and if the Aussies are there the Kiwis have to turn out to keep their simpler brethren in check lest the Aussies all die searching for a barby or carry the offensive to the gates of the Kremlin!

[Rainbow Six]

What Simonmark6 said. You probably know the Aussie Army better than most of us Leg and know how many troops they would be able to send overseas – what you put forward in the Australia thread a couple of weeks ago seems quite plausible to me. I guess the only question would be whether the logistics were in place for the 9th Brigade to be able to relieve the 3rd Brigade...I suppose it depends on when the Indonesians make their move.

There's bound to be some indications of Indonesia's intentions beforehand, so we should be able to justify pushing the reserve call up back about 6 months. Perhaps the official explanation, at least the one given to Indonesia anyway, was that it was a response to Australia's UN obligations in Korea, or to help out in Cyprus letting the British got to war in Europe. A bit thin, but aren't most political statements?

The timeline is important here too. 3rd Brigade probably goes over to Korea first and the reserves are called up at the same time to begin training. Recruiting efforts kick into overdrive and maybe conscription sugar coated as a way of reducing unemployment, kick starting the economy or something like that.

Officially the reserves are only supposed to serve inside Australia as a defence only force, somewhat like the WWII militia were supposed to, however once Indonesia makes it's move, 1st (less 1 Armoured Regiment aka Koalas - protected species not allowed outside Australia ;)) and 7th Brigades are sent into action, 9th Brigade is sent to relieve 3rd in Korea who are brought back home for predeployment training and reaclimatisation for PNG and to give commanders an airborne option (3 Para battalion).

8th, 11th and 13th Brigades are deployed to the north of the country while 4th and 5th Brigades (plus the Koalas) are kept as "strategic reserve" but sent into disaster relief duties when the nukes hit.

3rd Brigade may not make it to PNG but could be redirected as a "fire brigade" at home.

[Legbreaker]

Well, that's half the problem. A year or so back I was all about minimal Australian presence in Korea, yet lately I've gone the other way. Both approaches seem to have equally valid logic behind them.

Hmm, Might work and publish both options...

[simonmark6]

More choice is always better: I prefer a shopping list to mix and match my scenarios rather than a one size fits all prescription. I would definitely like to see both alternatives.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well, that's half the problem. A year or so back I was all about minimal Australian presence in Korea, yet lately I've gone the other way. Both approaches seem to have equally valid logic behind them.

Hmm, Might work and publish both options...

WHAT?!
You mean you've changed your ideas! And I thought you were simply stuck forever in your fossilized state of mind...

:p

:D

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Here's an idea I just had...for good or ill:

You know how the Soviets were calling on their "Socialist brothers" and stripping divisions in Eastern Europe to throw into the meat-grinder of the Siberian front? What if the Chinese were doing the same with the North Koreans? A little tit-for-tat, we-saved-your-bacon-in-'48-now-pony-up action?

Given that the west was using the Sino-Soviet war as a proxy war, providing our Most Favored Nation Trading partner with weapons and ammo, gleefully watching them smash the Soviets (and vice-versa) I'm wondering if the Chinese wouldn't take the heat off of S.Korea by thinning out a potentially ambitious North Korea by "asking" for a few divisions to plug the lines.

Until the nukes fly in '97, this would leave the Korean Peninsula relatively quiet and keep the NKs from getting too ambitious without their Chinese masters keeping them from doing something stupid to S.Korea, which might piss off the west and stop the lend-lease from flowing in.

[Webstral]

I don’t know what things look like in v2 and later, but in the v1 chronology it’s pretty clear that the North Koreans are clients of the Soviets. I have no doubt that the Soviets encouraged the North Koreans to invade the ROK as a means of diverting American resources that might otherwise be sent to Europe or the Middle East.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, in reality, North Korea drifted out of the Chinese sphere of influence and more into the Soviet. The vast majority of NK equipment came from the Soviets, even though the two countries had somewhat of a falling out in the 70's (I think it was).

The North Korean invasion of South Korea in December 1996 could have been prompted and encouraged by the Soviets to help stem the build up of Nato forces in Europe where the Pact forces were a little light on the ground at the time.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I don’t know what things look like in v2 and later, but in the v1 chronology it’s pretty clear that the North Koreans are clients of the Soviets. I have no doubt that the Soviets encouraged the North Koreans to invade the ROK as a means of diverting American resources that might otherwise be sent to Europe or the Middle East.

well, V2.2 BYB says that the newly reunified Republic of Korea came to the assistance of the Chinese early in the war and suffered accordingly.

It does not mention how the reunification occured, but I would assume that it was peaceful.

I don't remember what V2.0 says, my copy is buried away under some boxes.

[Legbreaker]

V2.0 BYB says exactly the same thing, word for word.
However, I'm of a mind to simply ignore that single paragraph and take note of the information given in the various vehicle guides. Korea might be unified in 2000, but it seems near impossible for it to happen in time for them to do much to help China.
South Korea on the other hand with it's strong and vital military industry is well positioned to supply China with equipment. Makes sense really as they've then got a "testing ground" right next door so to speak to see how their weaponry stands up to Soviet/North Korean gear and make adjustments accordingly.

[Adm.Lee]

Korean unification in the v2 timeline is interesting, I don't think I've ever noticed that before. Does it have to be a DPRK attack on the South?

"What if" when NATO took advantage of the Soviets' distraction on the Chinese Front, the RoK then did the same, and used that (with Chinese & American approval) to smash the North?

[Legbreaker]

It is very vague as to who attacked who, however it's more logical for the North to attack given there was only one US Division in Korea at the time and reinforcements took months to arrive. Added to that, the US probably wasn't keen on starting an additional front if they really didn't have to.
Whoever attacked, it happened on the exact same date as US troops entered combat in Europe. It's almost a certainty NATO, particularly the US and Britain would have "telegraphed" their intentions to the world by sending troops into Germany - as if the Germans hadn't already done that weeks and months before....
It wouldn't take much for a supposedly combat ready North Korea to spend a couple of days calling soldiers back from leave, etc and launching their own offensive.

Of course there's nothing to say the South Koreans went on the offensive first, however that doesn't seem all that likely.

[James Langham]

It is very vague as to who attacked who, however it's more logical for the North to attack given there was only one US Division in Korea at the time and reinforcements took months to arrive. Added to that, the US probably wasn't keen on starting an additional front if they really didn't have to.
Whoever attacked, it happened on the exact same date as US troops entered combat in Europe. It's almost a certainty NATO, particularly the US and Britain would have "telegraphed" their intentions to the world by sending troops into Germany - as if the Germans hadn't already done that weeks and months before....
It wouldn't take much for a supposedly combat ready North Korea to spend a couple of days calling soldiers back from leave, etc and launching their own offensive.

Of course there's nothing to say the South Koreans went on the offensive first, however that doesn't seem all that likely.

Given that everyone will be VERY jumpy it wouldn't take much for the war to start by accident. I've avoided that in my history as that's how I've started the Sino-Soviet fighting.

I like the idea of the South starting the war but I can't see what they hope to gain from it. It would also make the Australian and Canadian decision to send troops odd.

The most logical candidate is the North probably in an attempt to avoid famine and hoping the US isn't able to intervene before they achieve their aims.

[Webstral]

I don’t think we have to work very hard to come up with an explanation for how the fighting spread to Korea. Provided one is using a v1 timeline, it seems fairly clear that the North Koreans initiated the fighting.

The US Army Vehicle Guide tells us that 2nd ID was engaged against North Korean commando units on 12/19/96 and was engaged against NK mech units by 1/3/97. This supports the idea that the NKs launched strong probes with SOF prior to launching their main offensive. I will grant that this item could be interpreted as having ROK forces invade the DPRK; the US would stay behind, as it did in West Germany, which would account for the first contact between 2nd ID and the NKs being defending against commando actions. I’m not inclined to think that the ROK attempts to reunify Korea by force of arms, though. The US has plenty to do in Europe in December 1996. Still, there is room for discussion as to whether the US is willing to be so adventurous as to allow/encourage a client to repeat West Germany’s trick while the fighting in Europe is still raging.

The US Army Vehicle Guide tells us that 7th ID arrives in the ROK in January 1997. The division participates in holding actions along the 38th Parallel throughout the first half of 1997, then moves north as part of a general offensive. The description for 25th ID reads about the same. Except for the fact that 26th ID arrives in Korea in February, its story reads about the same, too. 41st and 45th ID also participate in holding actions during the first half of 1997, then move north. 163rd ACR has pretty much the same story. The Marines mostly come to the show later, although 4th Marine Division’s history reads like that of the Army divisions.

So what we get is a single US division in Korea at the time the fighting starts. The first contact between 2nd ID and the NKs involves NK commandos. Later actions involve NK regulars. Everyone who arrives before the main Eighth US Army offensive at mid-year participates in holding actions along the 38th Parallel until the offensive kicks off. The most obvious explanation is that the North Koreans invaded South Korea, quite possibly at the urging of the USSR, in an attempt to unify Korea by force of arms while the US was engaged in Europe. The US slowly reinforced until the correlation of forces was such that offensive operations were possible. This fits nicely with pre-existing plans for war and what we know about the North Koreans in real life.

The other possibility seems to be that the ROK invades North Korea in an attempted repeat of the West German invasion of the DDR. If we go with this, then the South Koreans fare even worse than the West Germans: they don’t appear to get off the 38th Parallel on their own. Of course, it’s possible that the Americans man defensive positions along one part of the line while the ROK forces are pushing forward someplace else. Either way, it takes US forces to push deep into North Korea.

In the case of the second scenario, we must believe that the South Koreans believe there has been a significant change in the correlation of forces such that the ROK has a chance to pursue offensive operations in the North to a successful conclusion. In order for the South Koreans to believe this, they would have to believe that they could meet and defeat the larger North Korean Army inside North Korea. Granted, it’s quite possible that given the Sino-Soviet War and the fighting in Europe the South Koreans would be counting on the North Koreans being cut off from resupply and reinforcement by the Soviets and the Chinese. This is probably a reasonable assumption. However, the fact remains that moving north and digging the North Koreans out of their defensive positions is a completely different task than defending South Korea against invasion. All of the defensive advantages that might accrue to the ROK in the latter case would be turned around on invading South Korean forces.

It’s also hard to believe (though not impossible to believe) that the US would have been kept in the dark regarding this possibility. Would the US really have given permission for this? In geopolitical terms, the risk to the US would be very, very real. A US client state invades a Soviet client state in 1996; when the going gets tough for the West Germans, the US intervenes. A repeat of this process someplace else in the world can’t help but agitate the Soviets to the highest degree. It would be very hard to imagine that the Kremlin would not see US actions in Europe and Korea as an attempt to redraw the map of Eurasia by means of exploiting Soviet reverses of fortune in China. In short, a ROK invasion of North Korea might push the Soviets over the edge. The only reason to risk it would be if the South Koreans had a very good chance of pulling it off. This does not seem likely; nor do events as portrayed in the US Army Vehicle Guide seem to support this thesis.

Far more likely, I think, is a North Korean bid to get a quick victory while the US is involved in Europe. Who knows what the Soviets promised them. A nuclear guarantee, perhaps? The North Koreans invade, push the Allies back, and stall. They lose huge numbers of men and lots and lots of materiel. The US focuses its efforts on Europe and slowly builds strength in Korea until offensive operations appear feasible. In the meantime, the USAF hits strategic targets in North Korea to keep them from replacing their losses in equipment. Then the Allies push forward in an attempt to reach the Yalu and thereby knock a Soviet ally and first-rate headache out of the war for good.

[Raellus]

I don’t think we have to work very hard to come up with an explanation for how the fighting spread to Korea. Provided one is using a v1 timeline, it seems fairly clear that the North Koreans initiated the fighting.

Far more likely, I think, is a North Korean bid to get a quick victory while the US is involved in Europe. Who knows what the Soviets promised them. A nuclear guarantee, perhaps? The North Koreans invade, push the Allies back, and stall. They lose huge numbers of men and lots and lots of materiel. The US focuses its efforts on Europe and slowly builds strength in Korea until offensive operations appear feasible. In the meantime, the USAF hits strategic targets in North Korea to keep them from replacing their losses in equipment. Then the Allies push forward in an attempt to reach the Yalu and thereby knock a Soviet ally and first-rate headache out of the war for good.

+1

As a big v1.0 timeline fan/proponent, I'm apt to favor this interpretation of events.

This scenario also allows for a large Australian (and possibly a New Zealand one too) contingent to be committed as it looks like, echoing the events of the First Korean War, that the ROK/U.S. forces were knocked back on their heels early by the NK offensive. This would be a prime opportunity for the Neo-ANZACs to help their allies in the rapidly expanding global war.

In light of the regional chaos caused by the Soviet invasion of China and the later NK invasion of SK, I wonder if Japan would be willing to circumvent or annul its self-imposed ban on foreign troop deployments and send military forces to help prevent NK conquest of the South. As far as setting up a cool RP'ing environment, the more nationalities present, the merrier, I say.

[Legbreaker]

I'm in total agreement of that assessment and will be basing my deployment of Australian and possibly NZ troops on that.
Japan however I can't see sending combat troops - remember the uproar at home when they sent a medical unit to Iraq in 2004? It even required a change to Japanese legislation!

[Raellus]

Japan however I can't see sending combat troops - remember the uproar at home when they sent a medical unit to Iraq in 2004? It even required a change to Japanese legislation!

Yes, but that was Iraq, a war that didn't receive a whole lot of international support, and one which in no way pursued Japanese interests. WWIII in East Asia is a totally different proposition. With China on the ropes and NK forces pushing towards Pusan, the national mood in Japan would likely be very different. I think the Japanese would rather fight communist expansionism on foreign soil than on its own island possessions.

[Legbreaker]

It was also almost ten years after T2K kicks off - almost another generation after WWII and even more time for public opinion to change.
Even now in 2012 the Japanese I know are shocked at just the idea of armed troops serving outside Japan. It just doesn't sit right for Japanese troops to fight in Korea for any reason.

[Webstral]

I think the way around this is to leave Japan in charge of Japanese territorial defense. All US assets could be assigned to missions directly affecting Korea. Inevitably, the North Koreans would try to use their subs to intercept sea traffic in Japanese sea space. Soviet air reconnaissance would stray into Japanese airspace. Japan would get dragged into the fighting, though deployment of troops outside Japan might be too much to ask for. Still, a robust defense of the air and sea around Japan based on Japanese assets would be very helpful to the other allies.

[Legbreaker]

Agreed. Japan makes for a strong and solid base for the UN troops and that fact will attract attention from the North Koreans and Pact. Attempted naval blockades (varying results), economic "warfare", covert activities and eventually nuclear attacks could all be expected. The Japanese would definitely have their hands full even without sending troops overseas.