Don't sue us...

[kato13]

nmdecke 12-25-2003, 02:32 PM Hi,

I am an occasional lurker here but I have something that I'd like to toss out. Last summer, with my associates in crime (plagarism...) I was working on a gazetteer for America in a post-holocaust setting. We used Twilight 2000 as a basis, but changed it to be an America in 1964 following the nuclear war of 1962 (Cuban Missile Crisis gone bad). As we have moved on to other projects unrelated to this gazetter (and got burned out on the whole idea), I thought I'd post it on the web to get some feedback. Many (most) of you will recognize bits and pieces of your own work in this gazetter, as we scoured the web looking for ideas to suppliment our own. No, we didn't footnote anyone's work, so don't sue us, please. We never really intended for this to make it out of our little group. If anyone has any comments, please let us know. Thanks.


www.geocities.com/nmdecke/Twilight1964.html

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graebarde 12-26-2003, 11:07 AM Now I could play that timeline I think. Pre automatic rifle for every soldier and all. WW2 surplus the norm, etc.


I remember the Cuban crisis having lived through it as a teen. I'm reading 'Alas Babylon' now for the umpteenth time, and would provide a good basis for info/ideas within the timeline as well.


Good job.

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TR 12-28-2003, 09:50 PM HEHEHEHEHHEH


I looked over the site, the materials especially on Colorado which looked very familiar in a number of spots...


:D


If I may add a few suggestions which may help.... just of what I know of Colorado back then.


Definately you could expect a nuke on Buckley Air Force Base which was used at the time by Air Force and Marine Corps units. We know currently that Sterling, Colorado is home to a lot of nuclear missiles with launch/storage facilities but I don't know how long they have been there.


With regards to Indiana I will merely point out a couple things in that I grew up there. (Where exactly you at back there if I may ask?) Back then in the 1960's you had a lot of rural farms, most folk had a rifle, shotgun, etc for hunting and varmit control. Most folk would definately be wary of strangers and communities would band together to deal with their own problems of course when law enforcement and or military would not be around.


The state was then especially Republican in politics and as such I don't quite so readily agree with the ease of which the state goes Civgov or the descriptions of many areas being crime ridden... sorry...


Otherrwise I thought it was great, reminded me of some of the discussions about Operation: Dropshot from the boards from a few years back.


I have to agree with graebarde, reading of Alas Babylon is almost required reading for gaming during this period. A great source of ideas and plot lines to be played out...


Until Later,



TR

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graebarde 12-28-2003, 10:15 PM Operation: Dropshot.. now THAT is quite a book. THE plans for nuclear war with Russia about 1957, thought the plans were written in about 1949 IIRC.

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nmdecke 12-29-2003, 07:59 AM Thanks for the positive imput. To be honest, me and my two mates (a grocery stocker in Arizona and a retired US Army colonel in Virginia) have devoted way, way too much time to this project, hours and hours and hours...It is no where near complete, but we are quite proud of the effort so far. We would really love to have some more detailed editing from some other folks, we have pretty much run out of ideas...Please feel free to email me anything you want to include, perhaps one day I can get a group of people interested in playing in the world we have created. Thanks again for not taking legal action...


BTW, I live in Bluffton, Indiana, just south of Fort Wayne. I have also lived in CA, WY, VA, MO, KS, AR and AZ so I have familiarity with a lot of the areas that I nuked and ravaged...

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orrin_ladd 12-29-2003, 08:18 PM LOL, I recognize a lot of California stuff. I'm not interested in suing anyone, unless you're going to be making millions of dollars off your site. :D


Good stuff by the way. I'll probably return the favor and end up using some of your ideas if I ever get around to updating my page.


I'm not up to date with 1960's California military history, but you may want to add:


Castle AFB, located in central California. This was a SAC base. Matt Wiser's been after me to add this to my list.


Hamilton Field located in Novato, north of California. In the 1960's, I think this was an Air Force training base, also the 91st division ran excercises here but the actual grounds were owned by the Navy.


Mare Island? The oldest navy base on the West Coast, located in the North bay. I'm assuming that Hunter's Point didn't survive the nuke that hit south of Market in San Francisco. (for that matter Naval Station Treasure Island is probably gone too) So most of the naval forces would relocate to Mare Island.


Nike missile sites? I'm not sure of Southern California, but you can visit one of these old anti-ballistic missile sites in Northern California. (Ft. Barry)


East Bay military sites, such as Concord Naval Weapons Station, Oakland Army base, Alameda NAS (probably damaged by the nuke blast)?


If you're going to mention CSU Chico and UC Davis, what about the other universities in California. I realize there are a ton of universities in California, but what about the University of California, Stanford, University of the Pacific, UCLA, Loyola etc?


You mention 1/19 SFG. I'm not sure if this SFG was active back in the 1960's.


Oh yeah, if you have gays surviving the nuke blast, you should have the Chinese somewhere too. San Francisco has the largest Chinatown outside of China (no joke).


orrin

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nmdecke 12-30-2003, 06:21 AM Thanks Orrin. All good ideas, I'll try and work them in there.

I don't know a lot about the military in 1962 either, had to do a ton of research before even getting started. Everything was different back then, different weapons, different unit organization, many bases open that are now closed, etc... In this post 911 world, I even found it hard to find official government and military information on the web. So much of that, even stuff from the 1960s, has been taken down for national security reasons. I contacted via email the National Guards of every state to get info, and most of them told me that they couldn't help without me first having written permission from the Dept of Justice and the Army. This has forced me to do a lot of guessing and bluffing to fit things into the timeline.


Mare Island? Actually I need to change the whole Bay area entry, move all the forces up to Mare, probably where it would make more sense to have them. Never enough time...


1/19th? I couldn't find any websites that had the Spec Forces organizations in 1962, so I just guessed.


CHinese in SF? Oh, yeah, forgot them...any ideas for what they could be doing in 1964?


As to why I didn't have Buckeley AFB nuked, it's just because Russian didn't have that many nukes in 1962 to begin with. In a 1980s exchange, you could assign nukes left and right, but in 1962 you have just a few dozen to spread around the entire nation.


Any other ideas?


Thanks again, nathan

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TR 12-30-2003, 01:07 PM Bluffton? Nice place actually, been there a few times when I was younger... I'll see what other materials I have for Indiana and Colorado, which are the two states I have lived in and see if there is anything of value to send along.


There was some discussion awhile back for the old timers aroound in which we discussed usig the Operation Dopshot material as source for a new campaign...


I think the info on it is still available it would certainly give insights on military targets of the time to be sure. I'll root around the old hard drive and see if I have some of the documents on it.



TR

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dawg180 12-30-2003, 03:16 PM Very nice work on Illinois, especially if you had not been there before. I am a bit disappointed to find out Geneva has been taken over by a warlord, looks like I will be growing up in slavery :(



One note, piracy would be damn near impossible on the Fox River by barge or large boat, at least anywhere in the Chicagoland region, as there are several dams. They can, however, be portaged by canoe or rubber raft and in fact are quite often. Most of the portages would also be crossable by DUKWs, which would also avoid the problem of VERY shallow water (in many spots as little as ankle deep).


BTW, you also mention the Sears Tower collapsing in the A-bomb strike of '62. The Sears Tower was not complteted until 1973, I think constrution took five or six years IIRC.

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nmdecke 12-30-2003, 03:35 PM Thanks for the Illinois info, will have to do some adapting eh? Other than traveling through from time to time I havent spent much time in Illinois. Do you have any other ideas?


Sears Tower not until 1970s? Damn, should have checked that. That sort of thing has been the worst headache. I have to check the constructiong date of every building, dam, airport etc in the nation if I want to use them. As well, so many places have changed names since 1962, like Army bases and airports, that I have to check that sort of thing as well. Military units have been a headache from hell. Most of the army was still in the "Pentomic" system so I have had to hunt through haystacks to find out what a particular battalion or regiment was called back in 1962, often to find, for example, that an Abrams armored battalion from the 1990s was a truck transportation company in 1962. So many National Guard divisions have come and gone since the 1960s that I had to research for days what units were even around then. And any idea how hard it is to find a TOE for a Idaho NG company from 1962? Damn near impossible. And don't get me started on the pain in the neck trying to find the actual locations of units in 1962. It took me forever to find out what army divisions were in Korea and Germany at the time of the Cuban Crisis, even longer to discover where the Marine regiments were at the time. I am rambling...


Thanks for the imput, I'm putting everybody's suggestions in a folder to get to when I have the time. It would be great if this could become a group project, eh? nathan

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shrike6 12-30-2003, 06:12 PM Hope this helps, here's a few notes.


The NAtional Guard had 3 separate brigades in 1959 The 29th (HI), 92nd (PR), 258th (AZ).

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/lineage/M-F/chapter10.htm


There never was a 44th Armored Division. It's a fictional unit made up for Twilight. The brigades used to form the 44th would have either have been part the 30th Armored Division or the 30th Infantry Division (These are 2 separate divisions) in the 1960s



2nd Brigade, 5th Infantry Division was based at Fort Devens in 1962

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/lineage/M-F/chapter11.htm


*History of Modern US Army Special Forces:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/vietnam/90-23/90-231.htm

http://www.groups.sfahq.com/


10th Special Forces Group formed at Fort Bragg on 20 June 1952


77th Special Forces Group formed at Fort Bragg on 25 September 1953


1st Special Forces Group activated in Okinawa on 24 June 1957


the first Special Forces advisers are sent to South Vietnam in May 1960.


77th Special Forces Group redesignated 7th Special Forces

Group on 20th May 1960


11th Special Forces Group (USAR) formed at Boston, MA on 1 March 1961


12th Special Forces Group (USAR) formed at Chicago, Il on 24 March 1961


19th Special Forces Group (UT NG) formed at Salt Lake City, UT on

1 May 1961


20th Special Forces Group (AL NG) formed at Homewood (Birmingham), AL on 8 July 1961


5th Special Forces Group formed at Fort Bragg on 21 September 1961

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shrike6 12-30-2003, 08:30 PM More Observations


207th Infantry Group (Scout) (AKNG) wasn't formed until 1976. The unit would have been known as 297th Infantry Regiment (AK NG) containing the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battle Groups


The Mississippi National Guard contained the 108th Armored Cavalry Regiment


West Virginia National Guard contained the 150th Armored Cavalry Regiment


2nd Brigade, 28th Infantry Division wasn't formed until April of 1963

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/28id-2bde.htm

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nmdecke 12-31-2003, 12:19 AM Shrike, you're a god.


I'll be the first to admit I don't know nearly as much as I think about the army (I'm a manager for Wal-Mart) and often the information I get off websites forces me to guess and that is not my strong point. I have to trust in other people's knowledge for the most part, that's the risk when you canabalize what other people have written for your own purposes. I'll add your corrections to the folder, thanks.


Anyone have any ideas for conditions in citys/states/places that I have no listing for? Any time specific events or groups that I missed? Any 1960s public figures that might fit in there somewhere? Any problems with my choices of nuclear targets?


nathan

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dawg180 12-31-2003, 11:42 AM I actually have stood where the crater is in Chi-town, that is so cool! :) I also like how the near miss in the Lake Michigan actually helped save much of the town.


In fact, I have a Dark Conspiracy campaign I was going to run, and the detail is so good I may change the date and use your site as the background source material!


BTW, I am an architect by trade, and if there are any other major buildings/landmarks you want to double check, let me know as I have a pretty good library of resources concerning that stuff.

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shrike6 12-31-2003, 04:48 PM Originally posted by nmdecke


I'll be the first to admit I don't know nearly as much as I think about the army (I'm a manager for Wal-Mart) and often the information I get off websites forces me to guess and that is not my strong point. I have to trust in other people's knowledge for the most part, that's the risk when you canabalize what other people have written for your own purposes. I'll add your corrections to the folder, thanks.




Nathan,

I also don't know as much as I'd like to think about the armed forces as well. I'm a presently an out of work computer worker (I was laid off yesterday). I run into the same problems that you have. Only advise I can give you is to do the best that you can with what you have. From what I've seen you've done a very good job. I've done tons of research on orders of battle for my own T2K project, I'll throw more of what I've collected your way as I get time.

Brian



a couple of more observations


Living in either Nebraska or South Dakota most of my life, I've got a couple of notes.


Move the maurader group in Sioux Falls from the Battleship Memorial to the Sioux Falls Arena. I'm not so sure how old the memorial is but I don't think it was built till the late 60s. The Arena was built in 1961.

http://members.aol.com/ussdakota/ussdakota.htm

http://www.siouxfallscvb.com/sfarena.cfm


This is more of a note than asking you to change this because this is one of my favorite T2K adventures, though. There really isn't a Mental Hospital in Cedar Rapids, NE.

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 01:28 AM Shrike, thanks for the info, added it to the ever-growing folder. As far as Nebraska goes, I think I erred in placing too many marauder groups in the western and central parts of the state. By 1964, there probably wouldn't be enough food or targets around to keep marauder bands from turning on eachother. I went to grad school in Kansas so I know that part of the nation is pretty inhospitable in the winter, perhaps most marauders would have gone south or east by 1964? Any ideas?


Thanks again for the imput everyone, nathan

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 01:37 AM what, no mental hospital in Cedar Rapids? So GDW lied to us?!?!? Is there even a Cedar Rapids?


As I'm sure everyone has noticed, I took the original Twilight 2000 modules (and Challenge articles) and modified them to fit my timeline. I also took the non-USA modules and crammed them in sideways, no sense wasting perfectly good material just because it is set in a foreign country. Krakow can become Phoenix, Warsaw can become Chicago, etc with some effort and creativity. I'm sure some of you might think this cheating, but again the challenge and the fun of it was trying to adapt everything to my unique timeline.


Does anybody have any good ideas for the southern states? I don't have much for Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana...


Thanks, nathan

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Chuck Mandus 01-01-2004, 11:25 AM I like it, I'm an "alternate history" junky as well. ;) I haven't gone through all of it yet, but when I do, if I can add anything on the Pittsburgh area, I'll check in.


BTW, there is an alternate history novel out there that is set in the world of where The Cuban Missile Crisis "goes boom." It is set in 1998, a generation later with a survivor family living in New England, I think it is upstate New York or New Hampshire. They begin having dreams of an alternate 1998 world where most people had things like a color TV, computers in the home hooked to a thing called "the Internet," and so on.


BTW, I noticed that poor Punkin Center got hit again. Between you and TR, what did those poor people do to deserve that? :D


Chuck

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 12:06 PM 1 megaton free-fall bomb on Pittsburgh, sorry Chuck. Hope you can give me some good ideas about your neck of the woods.


As far as the blinding hatred for little Punkin Center, you'd have to ask TR. Perhaps he has an ex-girlfriend living there now...


nathan

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Chuck Mandus 01-01-2004, 02:50 PM Originally posted by nmdecke

1 megaton free-fall bomb on Pittsburgh, sorry Chuck. Hope you can give me some good ideas about your neck of the woods.


As far as the blinding hatred for little Punkin Center, you'd have to ask TR. Perhaps he has an ex-girlfriend living there now...


nathan


I noticed that, thanks for making my parent's life harder. :D I was born in 1966 so I think I would have been "butterflied" out of the picture anyways or I would be a different person. I know people can survive a 1 megger depending where they are although life would soon be harsh to say the least.


One minor nitpick, Disney World in 1962 wasn't around yet, land was being purchased for it in 1965 and construction started around 1966/67 and it opened in 1971. I know some of my family down there helped in the construction. So in 1962, the land would still be various types of swampland, flatland, and cattle pastures. Here's a link:


http://www.fodors.com/features/nfdisplay1.cfm?name=si/010125_si_disney


I-79 existed then but in Erie it ran from I-90 to Kearsarge, a suburb of Erie for a few miles. Also there was a small section from I-70 to the US19/40 interchange. Back then if you wanted to go to Erie, US 19 was the way to go. My grandmother remembers travelling on it in her uncle's Model T back in the 1920's and my parents went north on their honeymoon in 1959.


http://www.pahighways.com/IHwys/I79.html


Keep up the good work, I like the story!


BTW, one depressing thing is that Walter "Wally" Schirra would have been the last man in space when he orbited the Earth in his Mercury capsule on October 3rd, 1962.

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TR 01-01-2004, 05:52 PM I was able to dig up some information sources with regards to Indiana and Colorado that might be of assistance.


For Indiana I dug up some old notes I'd found from a website (see link below). The link also works as it covers a lot of the old SAC bases.


Grissom Air Force Base

Location: Indiana

Home of: 305th Bomb Wing

Status: Now AF Reserve Base



The history of Grissom Air Reserve Base dates to July 1, 1942 when it was opened by the U.S. Navy. At that time it was named Bunker Hill Naval Air Station and served as a training base for naval pilots. During the four years of Bunker Hill NAS, thousands of pilots were trained for the Navy, Marines and Coast Guard. One of its most famous alumni of Bunker Hill NAS is former major league baseball star Ted Williams.

After the war, the base was closed and it reverted to its former use as farmland. With the outbreak of the Korean War, the Air Force needed a base where it could conduct nationwide and worldwide operations. Again, Bunker Hill become the logical choice. Negotiations were begun with the Navy (who still had the title to the site) to reopen the base as Bunker Hill Air Force Base. To simplify the legal aspects of construction, it was decided that the Navy would let all major contracts and supervise construction of the nearly $25 million in new facilities. In 1982, the Air Force gained the title to the base from the Navy.

The base was reopened as a Tactical Air Command Base. The formal opening was June 22, 1954. That year, the 4433rd Air Base Squadron and the 323rd Fighter-Bomber Wing called Bunker Hill Air Force Base home. In 1955, the Air Defense Command's 319th Fighter Interceptor Squadron joined the forces at the base. The Strategic Air Command arrived on the scene in the mid-fifties and SAC's 8th Air Force assumed jurisdiction of the base on September 1, 1957.

In May 1959, the 305th Bomb Group and its B-47s arrived. Later that same year, the first KC-135 Stratotankers were assigned to the unit. Two years later, B-58s began replacing the B-47s. After 26 years of bearing the name Bunker Hill, the base was renamed on May 12, 1968 after Lieutenant Colonel Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom, a native of Mitchell, Ind., who was one of the original seven astronauts. Colonel Grissom was killed during a fire in his Apollo capsule while still on the launching pad at Cape Kennedy, Fla.

On Jan. 1, 1970, the 305th Bomb Group was replaced by the 305th Air Refueling Wing and Grissom became one of the largest tanker bases in the country. The Air Force Reserve became part of the Grissom community in 1971 when the 434th Special Operations Wing and its A-37 aircraft moved to the base. For the next 23 years Grissom was home to both active duty and reserve personnel.

In 1978, a second Air Force Reserve unit joined the scene. At the height of its operations, the base was home to one active duty wing and two Air Force Reserve units. Due to changes in the Air Force mission, two units (one reserve, one active duty) were deactivated in 1994. In October of that year, Grissom was realigned as an Air Force Reserve facility. Today, the base is home to the 434th Air Refueling Wing and is one of only four Air Reserve Command Bases in the nation.

Grissom Air Reserve Base plays an important role in the Indiana economy. It has a combined military-civilian work force and is the largest employer in Miami county and the third largest in north central Indiana. It is estimated the base has an annual economic impact of $75 million.


http://www.strategic-air-command.com/Bases/Bunker_Hill_AFB.htm


Lowry Force Base

Location: Denver, Colorado

Home of: 703rd Strategic Missile Wing, 451st Strategic Missile Wing (Titan I)

Status: Closed October 1, 1994. Now an administrative center.




Early History

Lowry Field was originally located near East 38th Avenue and Dahlia Street. It was named after Denver native, US Army Lt. Francis B. Lowry, who was killed in action during World War I. In 1937, President Roosevelt authorized funds to relocate Lowry field to its final site near East 6th Avenue and Quebec Street. The base started its training mission in earnest the following year. World War II caused Lowry to greatly expand it facilities in order to train bomber aircrews along with a large number of other technical specialists.

Training Center

After the war, Lowry continued to train technicians for all branches of the US military. The 59,814 acre Lowry Bombing Range operated from July to December of 1952. It was used by the local Navy, Lowry Air Force Base, and the Air National Guard for practicing bombing and strafing missions and for demolition of unusable Air Force munitions.

On June 7, 1951, Lowry's 3415th Technical Training Wing formed a Guided Missile Department. It taught courses in guidance, control, and propulsion for such systems as Matador, Falcon, Rascal, Snark, and Navaho. By 1962, the Department of Missile Training was providing the Air Force with over 1,000 trained missile specialists per year.

Over the years, thousands of airmen trained at Lowery.


Lowry Barracks, circa 1951

From 1953 to 1955, Lowry became President Dwight D. Eisenhower's "Summer White House" from which he conducted affairs of state while Mamie Eisenhower, a Denver native, visited with family. In 1955, the United States Air Force Academy was established at Lowry AFB pending construction of its facilities in Colorado Springs. The academy remained in operation at Lowry until 1958.

Titan Missile Base

On March 13, 1958, the Air Force Ballistic Committee approved the selection of Lowry to be the first Titan I ICBM base. The launch sites were to be located on the bombing range east of Denver. This was conveniently close to the Titan I manufacturer, the Martin Company (now Lockheed Martin) located in Littleton, Colorado.

Deployment of the missiles entailed a 3 x 3 configuration, meaning that each of the three complexes had three silos grouped in close proximity to a manned launch control facility. In September 1958, construction began on Titan I Missile Complex 1A, the first of six complexes constructed within an 18 mile radius. The excavation was started in May 1959 using an open cut method with depths ranging from 38' to 72'. The missile silo shafts were excavated by mining crews to a depth of 163'. The construction of the underground facilities were of reinforced concrete and structural steel with steel lined tunnels. An unusual requirement was the blast-proofing of elements incorporated into the work with the major mechanical and electrical elements shock-mounted to withstand all explosions except a direct hit. The heavy construction phase was completed on 4 June 1961. The complex was made up of three missile launching silos.

The Omaha District of the Army Corps of Engineers contracted a joint venture led by Morrison-Knudsen of Boise, Idaho, to construct the silos. A 144-day steel strike in 1959 caused delays and forced Morrison-Knudsen to resort to winter concreting. Despite this problem and others caused by constant design modifications, Morrison-Knudsen completed the project on time with the lowest construction costs of any ICBM base in the country at the time. Fairly smooth management-labor relations contributed to the success. The project also maintained the best safety record in the missile construction program up until that time. Use of a safety net was credited with saving many lives. Three workers did die during the project, although one was the result of a motor vehicle accident that occurred off site.


First Titan I Missile

The 703rd Strategic Missile Wing (ICBM-Titan ) was established on September 5, 1958. It was activated at Lowery on Sept. 25, 1958 and assigned to the 1st Missile Division, Fifteenth Air Force. It was a very short-lived wing. It trained in the operation of the Titan intercontinental ballistic missile and became partially operational on December 10, 1958, but before it could become fully operational, it was replaced by the 451st Strategic Missile Wing.

The 451st Strategic Missile Wing (ICBM-Titan) was activated on April 26, 1961 and replaced the 703rd in July. The first missile complex was accepted on April 18, 1962. The Titan I was soon replaced by the more advanced Titan II, which was deployed at other locations. On November 19, 1964, Defense Secretary McNamara announced the phase-out of remaining first-generation Atlas and Titan I missiles by the end of June 1965. This objective was met; on June 25, 1965, the 724th SMS and 725th SMS were inactivated. The 451st went off alert status on March 26, 1965 and began phasing down. The last missile was removed from Lowry on April 14, 1965. The 451st was discontinued and inactivated June 25, 1965.

Although the strategic missiles were gone, missile training remained a vital component of Lowry's mission. In 1972, the 3415th Technical School became the USAF School of Applied Aerospace Sciences with missile training continuing within the Department of Aerospace Munitions Training. In 1978, this department would be redesignated the 3460th Training Group.

The Lowry AFB Titan I Missile Complex IA is located approximately 15 miles southeast of Denver, Colorado. It is bounded by a chain-link fence.

Recent History

Due to the close proximity of the residential area around Lowry and the increase in the number of high performance jet aircraft accidents at the base, flight operations at Lowry ceased in 1966. In 1976 the US Air Force Accounting and Finance Center moved from its old location near East 40th Avenue and York Street to newly built facilities at the southwest corner of the base.

In 1980, Lowry Technical Training Center acquired a B-52D from Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona, and stabilized another B-52 on base for use in training crews to load Air Launched Cruise Missiles (ALCMs) and Short Range Air Missiles (SRAMs). Although Chanute AFB, Illinois, served as the primary training center for the Peacekeeper ICBM, Lowry supported training for this strategic missile by providing maintenance and repair training for the Peacekeepers' reentry vehicle at a state-of-the-art facility opened in 1985. In October 1986 ATC initiated an undergraduate space training program at Lowry AFB, CO, providing a basic preparation for space operational assignments. The Maintenance Officer's Nuclear Munitions Course was also conducted at the Lowry AFB Technical Training Center. Comptroller, transportation, and intelligence training moved to Sheppard AFB from Lowry AFB in the fall of 1954. In the late 1980s intelligence training consolidation brought general intelligence training from Lowry AFB to Goodfellow AFB.

In 1993 it was announced that Lowry would be closed as part of cost reduction measures being taken by the US military. On 12 April 1993 the Air Staff approved moving small missile maintenance training from Lowry AFB to Vandenberg AFB, California, where it would be consolidated with large missile maintenance training. The base officially closed October 1, 1994.

Lowry is still an active air force base, but has become an administrative center. It is home of the Reserve Personnel Center, which is charged with providing essential services and administration for the nearly half million women and men of the Air Reserve components in support of the Air Force mission. The center also maintains the master personnel records of all Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve members. The Defense Finance Accounting Service is also located at Lowry.


http://www.strategic-air-command.com/bases/Lowry_AFB.htm



Hope it helps!


TR

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Jason Weiser 01-01-2004, 08:13 PM Ok, on your NYC section....


1. The South Street Seaport Museum wasn't founded until 1967. It was basically in 1962 just another part of the run down NYC waterfront.


2. Lincoln Tunnel was there, but the Expressway wasn't so the means to get into the tunnel was different.


3. The Manhattan Bridge: This bears some special mention, it's yet another bridge going into Brooklyn from midtown, and vice versa. Anyhow, it serves both subway and road traffic, and sadly, it's not been built to handle it, till recently (They had to do a renovation they only completed late last year). In 1964, with the neglect and strain issues? Not to mention the 1 mt weapon that blowtorched Manhattan..and the tidal wave from the miss...IMO the Manhattan bridge is TOAST.


4. Yankee Stadium...that was pretty much the same as it was before the renovation. I dunno about any bat statue, but I think that was added during said renovation (1966-67).


5. Other ballparks: Ok, the Mets were at the Polo Grounds (Shea wasn't around). This was in Harlem, and, had the war not occured, would have been demolished in 1964. Now, think back to Armies of the Night? Remember, this can be plowed up, and farmed. Folks are going to fight over this. It would have been damaged fairly severely from the blast that wacked 46th Street, but it might have been intact enough to consider farming. Sorry folks, Ebbets Field was gone, as it had been demolished in 1960.


6. Laguardia and Idlewild (nee Kennedy) Airports: Ok, Laguardia was under the PA as of 1947. The main terminal building wasn't opened until 1964, so it was smaller than we know it now. Ok, Kennedy was Idlewild in 1962, and was rededicated after Kennedy was killed. The name change was 12/31/63. The airport, was, smaller as it was still expanding, but it could handle 707s from what I can find out. I think there might have been some flooding damage, but probably not much. Both airports are in Queens, with Idlewild in Jamaica and LGA in Flushing.


7. Governor's Island is a major Coast Guard installation in 1962. I doubt that would have changed, though by 1964, they might have pulled out to Camp May due to the difficulty of keeping Governor's Island supplied.

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shrike6 01-01-2004, 10:19 PM Nathan,

Here's a few of webpages you might find helpful.


http://nsarchive.chadwyck.com/cmessayx.htm

http://www.ajwheat2002.us/bases/

http://www.airforcebase.net/usaf/joeslist.html


Brian

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nmdecke 01-01-2004, 11:50 PM You guys are outstanding! I really appreciate all the extra effort you guys are going through here.


TR, I have some air assets at Grissom I think. It just seems like it is too isolated to be worth defending when you have concentrations of forces at Fort Wayne and Terra Haute, places where the infrastructure would be better able to support air operations. BTW, living so close, I've been out there just last year to see the air museum, worth the trip but a shame to see some great planes rusting out in the open.


I didn't do much with Lowry because I put two 6 megaton bursts nearby and just figured that nothing would be left to worry about. Is there any special terrain features of the area that might have saved Lowry from the ground burst at Cherry Creek Dam? Even if anything was left, surely it would have been moved to Colorado Springs by 1964.


Jason, thanks for the NYC notes. Any idea what the US Navy surplus shipyard at Bayonne looks like? I think it was one of the places that a ton of mothballed warships were in the 1960s, that might make some interesting situations...


Again, thanks a bunch nathan

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James1978 01-02-2004, 01:20 AM These are mostly air bases, aircraft plants, and ammunition factories. The aircraft plants would have been prime targets for industrial recovery. The ammunition plants are also interesting as whomever controls them has control over a very important asset. I found most of this at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/index.html where there is an extensive list of military facilities, including many closed ones.


North Texas Stuff

Fort Worth/Carswell AFB

I'm not sure I buy Lake Worth being that contaminated yet Dallas which did get hit seems to be OK. Anyhow, across the runway from Carswell AFB is Air Force Plant 4. That's where they built the B-36 and B-58. Since it didn't get nuked, the plant itself would have been a good place to recover key industrial equipment. There was/is also the Bell Helicopter plant.


DFW Airport - Sorry, didn't open until 1974. That leaves Dallas Love Field and Fort Worth Meacham Field.


Dallas - NAS Dallas was mostly a reserve facility and is located at northwest end of Mountain Creek Lake. There is also the Vought Aircraft plant.


Wichita Falls/Sheppard AFB - A large training base that was home to a B-52 wing from 1960-1965.


Texarkana - Home to the Lone Star Army Ammunition Plant and the Red River Army Depot.


Karnack/Marshall - Home to the Longhorn Army Ammunition Plant. Produced rocket engines and rocket fuel.


Louisiana

Shreveport/Bossier City - Home of Barksdale AFB as well as the Louisiana Army Ammunition Plant.


Alexandria - Home of England AFB. Fort Polk located 70 miles away and was an infantry training base from 1962.


Arkansas

Pine Bluff - The Pine Bluff Arsenal made and stored chemical weapons.


Barling - Home of Fort Chafee.

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Jason Weiser 01-02-2004, 02:26 AM Ok, there is some other stuff.


1. Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn, this was NYCs first Airport. It included Naval Air Station New York. Units there were: VMA-131 (USMC A4s), VP-832 and 834 (P2 Neptunes), VP-836 (P2s and PB4Y), VP 913 (P2s again), and HMM-768 (CH-46 and UD-34D)


There was also a large USCG presence there, but I don't have details.


2. Atlantic City also has a large USCG Airsta, but it probably all got consolidated at Cape May.


3. Camden NJ had New York Shipbuilding, which got shut down in 1967, their last major project being Kitty Hawk in 1961. But, in 1962, assuming the Soviets didn't blast it with an atomic torpedo (probably used a lot of those, along with sub delivered atomic mines, they had both in the inventory in 1962), then there would be a lot of impetus to recover equipment there. Same goes for the Brooklyn Navy Yard (it was shut down in 1966). But, the Brooklyn Yard might be in bad shape, to put it mildly.


4. There is also the Naval Ammunition Depot (Now Naval Weapons Station) in Monmouth County, NJ (Think Northern NJ) and it's from what I have heard, huge. Probably not a stretch to imagine nukes there, and probably caught a low yeild nuke for it's trouble.


5. Bayonne also probably caught a nuke, as it was the major port of embarkation for units deploying to Europe and/or Cuba from the tri-state area. I haven't found any evidence of mothballed ships but there was enough reason to nuke it for that alone.


6. There is also the Watervilet Arsenal in Albany, where the Army gets a lot of its tank guns and artillery pieces, I will bet in your timeline, there would be an impetus by Lemay to get control of this asset. Same goes with Picatanny arsenal in NJ.


7. Ok, here is where things get weird, apparently, the Soviets had used as the basis for their first SLBM, get this..the SS-1C Scud. It had a range of about 167km and was deployed on the Zulu and Golf boats beginning about 1959. Warhead yield was about 100 to 500kt. And yes, they made patrols with these weapons. Apparantly, they left the warheads on the beach, only to have them shipped once war broke out. You could use a few of these to fill in targets you need to blast.

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nmdecke 01-02-2004, 09:22 AM All great stuff! Some notes for James and Jason:


Dallas/FW--Should have checked the name of DFW, my bad. The airframe plants in Fort Worth and Dallas might be a good places to rebuild on paper, but remember that they are in the middle of an urban area. Urban areas, especially ones close to ICBM strikes, tend to collapse into chaos. With the loss of infrastructure and the populace in a frenzy, I can't see any industrial facility remaining intact for two years. Same goes with the military airfields scattered about the metro area. (For that matter, also for Jason's ammo depots in northern New Jersey) It is a good idea for a salvage mission, though, maybe from one of the Army enclaves to the north of the city. I'll think about it some more.


Pine Bluff, Karnak, Shreveport ammo plants---Yeah, need to do something with them. Any ideas? Who do you think would be in control of them and why?


Camden NJ-- I have a 6 megaton SS-7 on Phily, so I think it's safe to say that not much of Camden is still standing. Lots of high-value salvage though.


Russian atomic torps, mines and the SS-1 Scud nukes on the Zulu Vs--That's another of those things that I had to think a lot about. The Zulus have an extremely short operational range, and the horribly inaccurate Scuds even shorter. These notoriously noisy boats would have to approach to within 80 miles of the coast and then surface to prep the missiles. I just can't see any of the Zulus surviving to do that. Maybe I have bad info, but all my hunting told me that the atomic torp idea was axed by Khrushev (who hated the navy) before going into the production. It wasn't until the 1970s that nuke torps became widespread. Is that right? The mines require a sub, most likely a noisy Romeo or Whiskey, surviving the run up a coastal area crawling with ASW forces. Again, probably not much chance of that.


Albany NY...I was really trying to make most of New England away from the coastal regions staunchly CivGov, or at least very tenuously held by MilGov. I have no reasoning, just sounded like a good idea at the time. The new "governor" in Albany might not be willing to let his resources go that easily. I'd think the other governor in Buffalo would want it worse...


Brooklyn airfields...Probably all swamped under by the local populace looking for guns and ammo, but maybe not. Any ideas?


Bayonne getting nuked (and all the other "gotta nuke it" spots)... I'd love to nuke a lot more places, but I've spent all my ICBMs, probably allowed too many of the Golfs to survive long enough to fire, and let far too many old slow turboprop Bears into American airspace to add anymore nuke hits to the nation. Anymore and I'd be venturing into T2k territory...However, if you could create a really great background for a place to catch a nuke. and how it looks in 1964 and effects the local timeline, then I'd love to shoehorn it in there!



Thanks everyone for the links, but I have a similar listing of every military installation on the continent. But what I don't have are any ideas for what is happening with them in my 1964 timeline. I'm pretty much tapped out, so if you have any neat background and current situational ideas for all the airbases, forts and ammo plants that I've neglected to put in, please let me know. For example, I don't have it in front of me, but I think I put an Army unit in Texarkana, but do you have any ideas to expand on that entry? Something interesting that for a group of PCs that might be wandering through the area to discover? Again, I'd really like this project to be a group effort. I was trying in the beginning to provide a nice huge resource for adventure hooks and enough detailed background to allow players and GMs to create some good campaigns in a one-of-kind timeline. It goes without saying that this entire document is open to everyone to use and abuse (especially since most of you have already "contributed" wink-wink). I'd love to have someone run a campaign in my world, that would make all the sweat and hours spent typing worth it...


Nathan

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James1978 01-02-2004, 12:09 PM I don't disagree about chaos. The thing is that I live in Fort Worth and I just don't see parts of Dallas being a military enclave while Fort Worth is a contaminated wasteland. The Metroplex is prettty big and was even back then. I live on the west side of Fort Worth and it's a good 40-60 min drive to Dallas.


As for factories, reopening them would be next to impossible. What I was thinking was that if the government was intact enough to send units to Korea and Europe, it would have been intact enough to salvage key industrial plants. They probably sent in recovery teams to salvage machine tools and other manufacturing equipment. Maybe it's all sitting in some MilGov enclave or maybe marauders stole it. Finding it and getting it back could be an interesting adventure.


As for the Army depots, they may have been a treasure trove early on to whomever controlled them. I once read that the US kept Sherman tanks in the war-reserve stockpile into the 1960s. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but a few dozen Sherman tanks would make someone a major force in this world. There are probably a lot of Garrand rifles floating around as well as other WW II surplus.

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James1978 01-02-2004, 12:45 PM You may want to check out http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/command-control.htm, it has a listing of several FEMA bunkers, communications bunkers, and command bunkers.


http://coldwardc.homestead.com/files/index.html is also interesting


Atlas Launch Facilities - The Atlas-D and Atlas-E launch sites weren't actually silos. The missiles were stored horizontally until they were raised and fueled. These sites were above ground and were semi-hardened. These sites are fairly large and some had their own runways IIRC. Today you can buy them and remodel them into homes. Abandoned sites would make a great place for marauders or survivalists to hold out.

http://www.missilebases.com/

http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com/



Pennsylvania

Raven Rock/Site-R - This is the underground Pentagon and had been operational since 1953. It's near Waynesboro. http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/facility/raven-rock.htm


Kansas

Wichita - Just across the runway from McConnel AFB is a large Boeing plant where they built all the B-47s and many of the B-52s.

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TR 01-02-2004, 01:26 PM Some additional military information that may be of assistance to you... I haven't had a chance to verify every aspect of it as it is not of my creation but a lot of what I have seen likes accurate.


I'll put in the link and a sample of what is on the page so you can decide if it suits your needs. It covers some US units and their deployments and information on NATO of course so it's a mixed bag.



http://www.tdg.nu/resources/TOE/OOBs/1946%2B/NATO.htm



NATO Armies 1950-1980, the first thirty years


by Jose-Maria Serrano


The signing of the North Atalntic Pact marked the start point for NATO


US forces in Europe 1950-1970


In 1948, the active Army was composed of the following divisions:


In Japan, as occupation Army:


1st Cavalry Division (configured as Infantry).


7th Infantry Division.


24th Infantry Division.


25th Infantry Division.


In Germany: the 1st Infantry Division, and the Constabulary, which was equivalent to an additional division.


In the Continental US (CONUS):


2d Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Washington.


3d Infantry Division, Fort Benning, Georgia....




Until Later


TR

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nmdecke 01-02-2004, 05:49 PM >>>I don't disagree about chaos. The thing is that I live in Fort Worth and I just don't see parts of Dallas being a military enclave while Fort Worth is a contaminated wasteland. The Metroplex is prettty big and was even back then. I live on the west side of Fort Worth and it's a good 40-60 min drive to Dallas. <<<


Ok, I'll buy that. My knowledge of the Dallas area consists of my Rand McNaly road atlas and wondering how they are ever going to unload ARod's contract so they can get some decent pitching...

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James1978 01-02-2004, 06:38 PM Originally posted by nmdecke



Ok, I'll buy that. My knowledge of the Dallas area consists of my Rand McNaly road atlas and wondering how they are ever going to unload ARod's contract so they can get some decent pitching...


No problem, the thing is that Dallas has the rest of the country convinced that everything in the Metroplex centers around Dallas. That's just not the case. A few years back the Census Bureau tried to lump Fort Worth and Arlington into a so-called "Dallas Combined Area". You can guess who would have gotten all the federal money if that had gone through. Another example, the Dallas Cowboys don't actually play in Dallas - they play in Irving.


Since this gazateer seems to be turning into a group project, I'm more than willing to help out with North Texas in any way I can. I'll see what else I can dig up.

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graebarde 01-02-2004, 08:10 PM I have the book Drop Shot on my book shelf next to me. <sighs> one of the few references NOT in storage 800 miles away..

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ReHerakhte 01-02-2004, 09:10 PM Another alternate history novel stemming from the Cuban Missile Crisis is 'Resurrection Day' by Brendan DuBois (first published 1999 ISBN 0-316-84866-2 for paperback or 0-316-64645-8 for hardback).

Its a journalist/detective novel set in 1972, ten years after the nukes fell. I found a lot of the imagery very good, particularly the stuff for New York which I think would compliment the Armies of the Night module well. On top of all that, I enjoyed the story too!


There's a website for the novel that explains it in a lot more detail

http://www.ResurrectionDay.com


Cheers,

Kevin

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nmdecke 01-03-2004, 08:26 AM Funny you should mention the book "Resurrection Day"...I was reading that very book about three years ago and I said to myself, "Self, that would make a kick ass timeline for a Twilight 2000-style gazetter!" And so I wrote a nifty two-page outline and then decided that I'd rather have a child instead and promptly forgot about it. Two years later, my son was two and I stumbled across that outline in the dark corners of my desk one day while looking for a lost Veggie Tales video. And here we are today. It is a pretty good book, lacking in a lot of details, but dear to my heart as it was the sharp stick that prodded me into starting this project.


My folder of stuff that you all have given me is awfully thick. Hopefully this week I can work some of it in.


For anyone interested in sending me stuff off the forum, here is my email... nmdecke@hotmail.com My spelling and grammer in this work are rather poor (I'm from Missouri so it's not my fault) so if anyone has a lot of time on their hands I could really use an editor...


Thanks again everyone, nathan

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nmdecke 01-06-2004, 07:50 AM Hello,

Since the responces have slowed down, I'm going to start reworking some of the sections to include the ideas you all have given me. I also have a five page list of other great ideas that was sent from my partner in Arizona, so hopefully in the next week or so the gazetter will grow conciderably. Now that I have seen that my efforts have not been a waste of time, I have more enthusiasm for the project. Anybody got any more good stuff for me to add? Thanks again everyone for your interest and effort, and feel free to check by the site in a week or so to see what we have come up with. nathan

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TiggerCCW UK 01-07-2004, 05:29 AM There is a hell of a lot of hard work going into this project. If only I knew anything about the US in the 1960's.........

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graebarde 01-07-2004, 08:24 AM Well I grew up in the 50's-60's America, though my focus was narrow in area. One thing I can say is the attitude of the 'general population' has changed and not for the better since then. It use to be common for neighbors to stop what they were doing to help another neighbor having trouble. Today people don't even know their neighbors until too late often.


What do you want to know about the life of the 50-60 era that I might enlighten you? (If I can if I can.)

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nmdecke 01-07-2004, 09:09 AM Graebarde,

Well, I guess the biggest question I have for you is about marauders and biker gangs. Do you think that the population of 1960s America would be as willing to turn to banditry and organized violence following a national catastrophe as much as the writers of T2K assumed that the 1990s population would? Perhaps I have erred in pouring on the biker gangs and brigand warlords in 1964? Perhaps also I have erred in having the military suffer so much desertion and internal disruptions? Was the loyalty and dedication to nation and duty stronger in the 1960s? I don't know. Where in Jasper Country are you, by the way?

nathan


ps, just changed a lot of stuff to reflect the new info that everyone has given me, thanks again. Also changed the entry for Fort Worth, Texas to give James1978's parents a better chance to survive to grow up and have him...

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James1978 01-07-2004, 03:01 PM There is one thing I would point out. In 1962 there would still be a lot of WW II and Korea vets who would range from their early 30s to mid 40s. I'd think they could have provided an experienced core to rebuild around and fight off marauders. The draft had also been going on since the 1950s and there would be a lot of men in their 20s who had done their two years and goten out. A lot of the younger ones probably got called back into service, but not all.


I've got some more links for you.

Abandoned Airfields: http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/index.htm

- This one cover a lot of old airfields that were still open or maintained in the early 1960s.


Handbook of Texas Online:

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/index.html

- This is probably more than you wanted, but it's extremely detailed and could be listed as a resource for adding some flavor to small towns and out of the way spots in adventures.


BTW, thanks for the toughts on Fort Worth. Saddly, my family is originally from the New Orleans area, so they probably still didn't do too well.

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graebarde 01-08-2004, 11:46 AM I can only speak for my locale at the time which was north central North Dakota.


Motorcycle gangs.. There were some biker groups roaming the country then, many flew the Hell's Angels colors. I know Minneapolis had/has a chapter, and there was a wearer of the colors in my area at the time. Amoung the youths, the mention of his name set hackles of alert, causing you to look over your shoulder.. until you actually met and talked to him.. I had a cousin that rode with him.. Now the cousin WAS a bad apple, but manageable. BTW the Hell's Angels were started by veterans of WW2, and MOST had blue collar jobs until the early 70s, and I imagine there are still some that do. There are more biker groups now, and a few that make the Angels look like a sunday school class.


The population, as mentioned in a following post, was made up of alot of veterans. The draft took care of that.. I think 75% of the males I knew were veterans of WW2, Korea, both, or at least two years in the service due to the draft.


Our community was pretty close knit too (there wasn't alot of TV in the area at the time, and going to town on Saturday night was THE big event of the week.) neighbors looked out for neighbors, doors were never locked, (except for buisiness in town and a few 'parinoids').. hooliganism was NOT tollerated (NOT to say it didnt occure).


Should brigands/gangs appear, they might have fun at first, but within a day or so, the community I think would have reacted. EVERY house had at least two or three firearms, mostly shotguns and deer rifles, but the owners knew how to use them and more than one was a combat vet.


General population turns to banditry.. I think the general population would not resort to it, however when the infastructure collapses, and it would, leading to hunger, it would be roving bands looking for food that would cause the most problem IMHO. What do you do when a group of say 20 starving urbanites show up at sundown wanting food and shelter.


I think most of the ruarl population would,initally anyways, try to help them, but it only takes ONE bad apple to spoil the barrel, so it could and probably WOULD turn ugly in short order. I am sure my dad would have shared with the urbanites.. at least for a while, or until someone got pushy.. THEN they get nothing.. and then it gets ugly. We were a far distance from any major urban sprawl however.


Another thing to remember is MOST of the population at this time had lived through the depression of the 30's. It would have a big bearing on their survival mentality.


I know the farms at the time were

a. smaller, mostly family farms, where the mother didn't work off the farm.


b. the farms were usually more diversified, have some livestock as well as raising crops. In my area I know many of the farmers still had teams of horses for light chores even into the late 60's. Alot of that was nostlgic, but there were a couple that used horses exclusively for their farm work.


c. MOST had large gardens for home consumption.


d. Nearly all processed some of their own foods, and had stores for several months. (we had meat and vegetables for six months, grain we had MOST of the year a supply that would last us several years if we used it ourselves.. a grain bin of wheat of 1000 bushels (60000 pounds) is about 200 man years of wheat, with wheat as the main source of food.


Today, most farms are much larger (3 times or more inmost cases, as the family farm dies); the wife is more likely to seek off farm employment to make ends meet; farms are less diversified; few farms maintain working stock, unless they are in cattle country; fewer gardens are grown (ie the wife is gone to town to work, and it's easier to sell the crop and buy processed food in town)

IMHO most farmers today would NOT fare much better than their urban cousins, except they have silos of unprocessed grains, and no way to process it generally.



Military desertions... I really don't think that would have been a problem. There would probably be a problenm with call ups later, as people were trying to survive at home. I thing the married ones would be more reluctant to go than the singles that had basically nothing to keep them there (ie sole support for the family). I think overall there was a more patriotic, morale population. Why? Well since Im on a soap box of sorts IMHO it was schools, and how they operated then. We started the day with the Pledge of Allegiance, there was still prayer in schools (though I don't recall it ever being prominent), dicipline was pretty strict (you get in trouble, you got in trouble at home again, at least in the families I was familar with.. ) corporal punishment was normal for the major offenders.. Children were spanked and told NO and it was ment.. (This is MY opinion, so no flames necessary to try and convert me :)) as Im too set in my ways)


I too think there would be greater civil disturbance in the 90's over the early (pre-vietnam) 60's. The general population has grown accustomed to the 'world owes me a living' syndrome, and there is more welfare programs now than in the early 60s. Recall the riots of the 60s were led by baby boomers, NOT people that had been in the depression or even lived through ww2 as teens for the most part (yes there were some 'leaders' that fell into the pre war group but they were a minority). These same people are the 'leaders' today, so you can see where civil unrest can and would come to a head more rapidly today.


Draft revolts would be more common than desertions I think, atleast till the government collapses (what ya gonna do when the supply truck stops coming? Impossible you say? I think some of what T2K depicts is too optomistic, and in other ways too pessimistic. IT all depends on the area and time after 'the day'.




The US is a LARGE country with many different areas where people are raise differently, and have differnt ideals. I think some areas, especially the cities, (those that survived anyways) would be the source of the bandits for the most part, and motorcycle gangs.. though the gangs would be running on fumes after some period of time, and less in numbers as the population fights them off.



Sorry for the ramble. Hopefully you can glean something from it.



BTW I am in Webb City.


grae

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dawg180 01-08-2004, 12:36 PM I think the effect of the depression era folks should not be underestimated. My grandparents lived through the depression, and grandpa always had whatever tool or oddball part you needed in his garage- he never threw anything away, even if it was junk or broken, as you never know when it could be used again. It all was organized, too! I know a lot of other people whose grandparents do the same thing.


People also were much more self-dependent when it came to fixing things. Carpentry, minor plumbing and wiring, and car repair skills were a lot more common across the general population.


I think in a lot of small towns you would see WWII and Korean vets deputized into the local police force to help keep order, or even entire VFW and Foreign Legion posts as sort of a "home guard" like the Brits in WWII.


I agree with the modern mentality of "the world and society owes me." Just a look at the frivilous lawsuits over hot coffee spilled on your lap, thieves suing the homeowner who shot them and such seems to verify it....

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nmdecke 01-08-2004, 12:59 PM Thanks for the info guys, very interesting stuff. Being only 33, I have no frame of refrence for the 1960s, but it sure seems like the nation would react much differently to an atomic attack than my generation in the 1990s would. Is anyone out there thinking of running a campaign in this timeline? All that has been posted here o the forum this week would be invaluable for GMs...


BTW, Graebarde, Webb City is a nice place, I used to date a girl from Carthage. Mizzou class of '96 as well (Go Tigers!).

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graebarde 01-09-2004, 08:49 AM "BTW, Graebarde, Webb City is a nice place, I used to date a girl from Carthage. Mizzou class of '96 as well (Go Tigers!)."


Go Tigers? :P.. Ever see what a Cardinal does to a Tiger? :))


Yeah we moved here last March (two months before the day of the twisters), and like the area and town. Most people here seem to have never met a stranger.


This prompts me to think what would happen in this area in a T2K timeline. Seeing how everyone responded to the numerous areas devistated with the twisters of May 4, I think there would be a massive pulling together of the communities. The amount of looting reported after the storms was very minimal compared with other areas I have heard about in the past. In Carl Junction I only heard of ONE reported case, though there may have been more.


As I work in retail, we always have our eyes out for theives. Yes there are some here, but IMO there are LESS than in other areas I have worked futher south. Maybe they use more finess, but to me that's an indication as well as to how fast someone would become a brigand after society collapsed. The ONE incident we've had in store the almost one year I've been here was reported by another CUSTOMER. Seems the population is willing to be involved and take responsability, which leads me to beleive in times of crisis, there would be, as pointed out above, a 'bonding' and the propensity to look out for the other man. At least I hope that is true, and hope we never have to find out if my theroy is true.


grae

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[kato13]

TR 01-09-2004, 11:23 AM After some of the reading here I thought I would share my two cents on how I read 1960's Indiana in such a scenario... I warn you all now this is going to be long!


As far as age nmdecke, know how you feel as were the same age... However I grew up in law enforcement and military circles as a kid, so I always got to hear the adults talk about the cold war and such. (As well as see my parents stock foods and such in the garage for the cold war.)


Being a Hoosier by birth and growing up there during the 70's and 80's I think I can add some material to think about.


I think you could expect key social groups in Indiana during this period:


The Military Types:

Indiana had a fair number of military bases and reserve units as well in the state. We know not all of them would have been deployed, for example the Bunker Hill AFB was a SAC facility so they would have remained on station as it were there. So you've got soldiers who are going to band together in groups at their facilities and bring their families in to protect what they've got. Secondly you would have some break down in that the soldiers would break with their units and go home. This is less likely I think in that unit cohesion and pride was big back then after WWII and Korea.


So that means you have a large chunk of military presence in key parts of the state only. This may mean outside these spheres of influence there may be less control however there are still some groups to list here. More than likely on this military facilities you would see the old victory gardens concept come back as they would need food of course. You can bet they could get technical advice from farmers in their community or from a member of their unit who grew up on a farm.


You can also expect engineers, carpenters, mechanics, doctors in military units to be in demand of course as they have to take care of their own, maintain what they have and build onto the exsisting facilities.


The Law & Order Types:


This is where things get truly interesting, Indiana back then had the triple ring of law enforcement coverage. You had the county sherriffs which patrolled and enforced the law in rural areas. You had the city police forces which were keeping the peace in the larger towns and communities of the state. Then you had the State Police which are the equiviliant of the FBI in the state.


So that means you would have pockets of law enforcement, firefighters and paramedics in the rural areas and towns which could be encountered. Some would keep to themselves and protect their own loved ones. Cops being somewhat clannish you might expect them to band together into some small communities of their own and or adopt a town and protect it (in return for foods, etc).


The State Police are an entirely different matter. Their structure has posts scattered all through out the state of Indiana. They divide the state into 17 districts if I recall right and have posts in each district. It would do well for anyone thinking about knocking over the ISP to remember that they were formed to deal with Dillinger. So a lot of the old ISP Posts are forts basically designed to be fought in during a seige.


I would have to do some digging to see how many posts they had in the 60's (my father was an ISP Trooper in the 60's through the 80's) so if the need arises for that info let me know.


Each post I can tell you no matter how big or small consists of the following.


Radio Communiciations Equipment

Automotive Service (not a full service garage but the basics including gasoline)

Armory

Offices (of course)

Kitchen

Showers


I would have to check with my source for more detailed information but you get the idea. You can be assured in this scenario you could easily add to the list.


The crux of the ISP would be family, these posts are not always big enough nor equipped to handle large scale populations living in them. So they would have to move their families in to an area close to the posts... or build onto the facilities. For that local community effort would be expected I'm sure.


So in some areas you could have military and law enforcement coverage of a community. As such I think the biker gang/criminal influences are going to have a tougher time taking over a town.


Other Groups:

The Farmers

Military/Law Enforcement Veterans

Firefighters/Paramedics

Depression Era Survivors


Farmers are big in the 60's, this is before the trend of the small farm going broke and being bought up by the banks. So this means you have a lot of rural areas where farming is being done, crops being brought in and the crop may exceed what the farmer can eat for himself and his family.


Granted the farmers are going to plant less I'm sure initially as they don't want to cover acres of land if their only producing food for 6 people... This also means their going to potentially trade any surplus food for what they need to survive.


Farmers are going to be somewhat self sufficient in a way, you can expect them to have oil lanterns and heaters... not to mention fireplaces used for heating their homes. Believe during this period you still have a lot of forest area that people would be chopping down.


Farmers are going to own firearms to a degree, maybe not military grade weapons (but if their military vets you never know). Normally a pistol perhaps, a rifle or shotgun. Normally in small calibers for the pistol (i.e. 22 LR/Short etc for varmit control) and the rifle or shotgun in conventional loads for hunting and predator control.


For farmers their going to have to patrol their lands/crops a lot more in this era. Lots of wild dogs and other pests would be looking for food too so for those growing livestock this is going to be a problem.


Indiana however eliminated a lot of predators over the years so you don't normally see large numbers of wolves, mountain lions (etc). However there are wolves in Wisconsin, so if things are bad there you could see them come down south into Indiana...


Coyotes and Dogs make up for something like 75% of predator activity in the state today. Bears, Foxes, Eagles and Bobcats only account for 14% of current predator activity so that tells you the rough percentage of numbers in the state. Hogs and sheep make up for a lot of the livestock in the state, corn wheat, soybeans and hay are some of the more common crops grown normally.


Depression Era Surviors are a sub category really that you can add to any group. I add it because both my grand parents lived through the depression and I saw growing up how it affected them 40 years later. As many have mentioned... canning. BIG TIME. I can remember there was a seperate basement where they stored all sorts of canned goods, jams and so forth. They also had planted lots of apple & buckeye trees on their property and had their own well rather than use city water.


They stored lots of things that didn't seem to make sense to me then. Spare parts for the tractor in the barn, quantities of fuel and oil in 55 gallon drums and the like even during the off season when not planting or harvesting crops. They also had a wood stove right there in the kitchen for heating purposes, but of course in a real emergency it could have been used for cooking as well. As you can imagine there was a large supply of chopped wood all ready for it as needed.


Retired Law Enforcement/Military Veterans are a group of persons in the state that provide a cadre of personnel if required. There were a lot of Hoosiers who went off to war during WWII and Korea who came back after the war to their homes and farms. Many brought back war souveniers (flags, katana swords, handguns, rifles and the like).


The Military veterans could be readily used to form militia groups to patrol communities and outlying areas for trouble makers. They would also make a good cadre for training basic marksmanship and such to the community at large.


Retired law enforcement officers fall into the same sort of category as the retired veteran. They are going to be extremelly useful for their law enforcement skills and teaching new fledgling rookie officers the ropes. As well with their backgrounds and experience their going to be good at policing the community and so forth.


Many a cop retired with their service issue revolver, many more of course accquired firearms which they privately purchased during the course of their career. As well many a cop took firearms after a trial that were no longer needed for evidence and would have been disposed of. So that means their going to be reasonably well armed as well.


So both groups provide a ready pool of manpower to tap into who can often teach others skills... and bring their own guns to the table.


Firefighter and Paramedics are two closely related groups, they also would have ties with law enforcement officers who they would have worked with as well.


Firefighters of course are on duty in their station houses so that means their going to be a tight knit group. You can easily expect them to band together with their friends and even potentially offer their skills to areas where military and law enforcement already are. The problem is their going to have to turn back to the past to do their job.


There are a number of museums in the state that have old horse drawn water pumps on display. Once the fuel, oil and parts break down for their trucks their going to be in a tight spot. More than likely what I would see happening is they would have to take a page from the past and go back to old steam engine pumps, pump driven engine's and the like.


For the paramedics (and really medical doctors and the like in state) they would be a valuable commodity. Most communities would want to entice a doctor to open up a practice there. However I would see the military and law enforcement circles having the largest sway on getting the top doctors. Of course that's a double edged sword, the public would get extremelly resentful if they were left with some two bit hack surgeon.


The military and police would need to have open clinics to a degree, not so much that their always out of medical supplies but enough to treat and care for those that show up from outlying regions.


Eli Lilly being a pharmacutical company in the state would be useful in that the personnel would become prized. However their of course going to have to also start utilizing older herbal remedies and the like as the ability to make the modern drugs of the 1960's would be a huge drain of resources if they did it in large scale production.


One thing Indiana did have going for it back then was parks and forest areas, etc to turn to in order to find medicinal plants.



There are bound to be groups I missed but this gives you an idea of course of who I think the major players and groups would be back then. Hope it helps.



TR

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graebarde 01-09-2004, 11:31 PM TR,


Good info, and right on IMO.. much the same in most of the country, at least in rural states I think. One thing I think that may be redundant is the alot of the police, firefighters, and paramedics you mention are probably veterans too, so they have multiple skills to offer to the community.


grae

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TR 01-10-2004, 12:17 AM True and depending on how old they are they could have been dperession era survivors (and or grew up on farms) as well... you can have a LOT of overlapage.


Still I think for rural areas it is accurate, some states may not have the degree of law enforcement as Indiana per se but it can be used as a basic template.


Urban areas of course are a different breed of animal though, harder for me to comment on them in that the first 18 years of my life was in the "wilds" of Indiana. My old high school had corn fields on three sides of it and on the 4th was a creek and woodland area.


Still I think you would have some percentage of people in urban areas who would stay. They would have to spend a percentage of their day scavenging about the city for supplies, and goods. Of course they would have to have their own mini-gardens and such to have any sort of stable food supply.


The majority of people in urban areas of course would flee... the roads would be clogged with cars, there would be accidents on the roads... fights and deaths over the most basic traffic altercations. What people who did get out of the cities would be all over the place. Some would go to national parks areas because they went camping there (etc). Others would head for relatives who live in the countryside (etc). The rest would be squatting on lands both public and private and fending for themselves any way they can.


This of course (as imagined) would be a huge problem for law enforcement and military types trying to enforce law and order in these areas. Food supplies would be strained in these areas as well as medical supplies. Farmers in these areas would be stuck in a real crisis of faith as they have food and goods but these people obviously don't. They however would want to keep their own family and loved one's safe so their generoisty would only go so far for so long.


I think however a shrewd leader could make this work to his advantage. You have a large influx of people and any number of projects that would require construction and or repairs. Right there you have a willing population of people who would do almost anything for food/supplies. You might have to move these people around the area to avoid over population and over saturation of supplies.


Some more food for thought of course.



Until Later


TR

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nmdecke 01-10-2004, 08:53 AM Wow, great stuff! Any thoughts on the "minority populations" of that time period? Wasn't the early 1960s a time when the native americans were becoming more militant and political? From your North Dakota experience, do you see the tribes up in that part of the nation disbanding under the pressure or closing up on themselves? Hispanics in the southwest I dealt with already, but were there other large Hispanic populations in areas that I missed? In 1962, the civil rights movement was in it's early stages, how do you think the loss of central government control would affect the black populations in the south? Without Washington telling them to segregrate and integrate, would the southern states revert back into low-level slavery to keep their economies afloat? I know that there is a largish Veitnamese population in NW Arkansas and SW Missouri (the girl from Carthage was Vietnamese), but I don't know if they were there in 1962. How about the Amish? Here in NE Indiana, we have a huge population of Amish folk, and by seeing the low-tech way they live and farm today, I can imagine that they might be perfectly suited for life in a post-nuke 1964. I don't know how the Amish out here feel about firearms, though. If they are as pacifist as the ones in Ohio, then they might get wiped out by armed refugees from the cities pretty early. Any ideas?


Anybody have a favorite (or hated) place they want nuked? I might have a few SS-7 ICBMs left if I cut down the rate of launch failures.


nathan

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nmdecke 01-10-2004, 08:56 AM BTW, I think we broke the record for most "page views" on the forum...thanks!

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TR 01-10-2004, 10:35 AM The Minority Equation... ah yes what a nightmare that would be. It was during the 60's of course that a lot of the advances came through to change things in this country.


With the nukes going off in your scenario when they did it's going to be all a mixed bag in that racism especially in the South is going to be a big issue. In the rest of the USA your still going to have outbreaks, and the KKK is still going to be around to have to deal with.


The Native american uprisings (AIM) really was in the later end of the 60's and 1970's. Still that would be an issue brewing in America in your scenario along with racial equality. I think all of the Freedom Riders from the 60's would be doing their protests and the like at a local community level rather than across the United states. so the battle for freedom would become extremelly personal as they would be protesting in areas where they live and are known.


Amish in Indiana, Ohio, Pennyslvania are all going to be doing fine as far as surviving. However it would benefit the governments in these areas to protect them as they are pacifists of course and would not own firearms. I don't think even the Menanites (sp) would own firearms, even though they sometimes will have some modern advances in their home some of their core beliefs are against murder. Still the local governments could learn greatly from the Amish on the issue of low tech survival. agriculutural methods and the like.


Another big issue from the 60's of course left to deal with would be the protest movement in general against governments, war and the like. I think this would have never happened in the scenario outlined, at least not in the numbers and only on a local level. Most folk would dismiss it as foolishness especially in the face of the nukes having been dropped. I don't think some things like Woodstock would ever occur.


As far as nuclear targets, Bunker Hill AFB (Grissom AFB) being home to a SAC Bomber Wing might be on the list but I think it would greatly depend on how many SAC bases we had then (as well as the other targets) versus how many nukes the Russians had in the mid-60's.


Until Later


TR

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Jason Weiser 01-10-2004, 10:47 AM Well, you also have on the racism front the rather ugly personage of George Lincoln Rockwell, Mr. American Nazi, Remember him! He might make an interesting stooge of Carl Hughes (assuming you're keeping New America in the BG). Also, there's a very unrepentant George Wallace running around. I don't think he is governor of Mississippi any more by 1962, but if he is, good lord are things going to get ugly down there.


As for the Amish, no, they are pacifists, so no firearms. But, to be honest, I think Allegheny Uprising is still useful, as you're going to have hordes of NYC and Ohio refugees decend on PA and NJ like locusts, and the locals are going to have their hands full, which may put the army in a VERY touch position.


Getting back to the question above, I wonder if, considering the issues with desegregation, would some southern states secede from the union again? It's possible, and frankly, wouldn't surprise me at all. Do we say these governments have been infiltrated by New America or the KKK? Or, are they the result of "populist" anger?

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TR 01-10-2004, 11:06 AM Yeah Rockwell... someone I try hard to forget, he put on a very slick show back then. I think in an era of no TV, some radio and few printing presses (after the nukes I mean) he could do well.


However he was killed by a member of his own group in August of 1967 so I think could expect history to stay true to form honestly in that he had alienated a number of people along his rise to fame and power (such as it was).


The sheer number of racists groups during this period would be problamatic for military and law enforcement alike. Depending on your state there was always a number of people in politics, law enforcement, military and so forth back then were members of the KKK for example. So anyone advocating an equality movement and doing away with hate would find enemies in the wrong places...



TR

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Chuck Mandus 01-10-2004, 12:25 PM Here in Pittsburgh back in 1962, we were a major industrial center for things like steel, copper, other metals. There were a lot of corporations headquartered here too, US Steel, Koppers, J&L Steel, Mesta Machine, Westinghouse, and so on. Westinghouse had their labs to the East of Pittsburgh on Route 30. My father was an industrial photographer, he went to many of those places and even got to see and talk to the "movers and shakers" of the time. He did have an assignment at Westinghouse labs, one time he bumped a canister and the top was loose. If the top came off, I might not be here, it was radioactive. :p


Given that we had a 1 megger hit us, Pittsburgh would have a lot of damage to the steel mills and other industries close to the city but you would still have servicable mills in the Mon (Mongahela) Valley south of Pittsburgh and West/Northwest in the Beaver county area. Also too, since it looks to me that it wasn't hit, you would have a servicable nuclear power plant at Shippingport, PA in Beaver county since it went online in 1957. I have the program to the 1960 World Series which lists a lot of companies and corporations, I ought to crack it open sometime and post what I find here.


Militarywise, we did have the Nike Sites, I lived near one all my life, when they closed in 1974, it was a license to go "freelance spelunking." Oakdale was a command/radar center, I've always known it as being part of the 99th Army Command although I'm not sure if it was so in 1962. We also have various National Guard and Army Reserve Units.


We also have a Air Force Reserve wing here and a Penna Air National Guard. We had fighters here, my neighbor is the former head mechanic for the fighters at the base until he (and the fighters) were retired in 1993. Back then from talking to him, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he told me they kept 4 Sabre jets (F-86) ready to go on the "hotline." Basically, the pilots would sit in the planes or be close to them, when one pilot would switch off to the other, they would fire the jet up for 10 minutes then shut it down, gas it up and have it ready agai. I think they kept the electronics "warm" by feeding it power from an APU (Auxillary Power Unit) so it could go "hot" anytime. Don't know if we had the KC-135 tankers or the C-130's here at the time, but I think we still had the old Globemasters. Looks like time for another talk. ;)


Also, since Pittsburgh has rivers, we do have a healthy continent of the Coast Guard here and the Army Corp of Engineers, the locks and dams do need to be run.


I've wondered about the Klan in the South too although they did (sometimes still do) have a presence in some rural areas in Pennsylvania, Back in the 1920's, they had huge rallies, my grandmother remembers them burning a giant cross in Riverview Park (in Pittsburgh's North Side) every year back then, could see it for miles. I think even by the 1960's here, the Klan might not be as big of a factor as they were a generation prior but they might still be a minor factor.


Culturally, I wonder what music, society, radio/TV would be like in 1964. Since the Beatles would have come to America in 1964, Cuba going hot in 1962 would have prevented that, although by that time, they were starting to make inroads in England and Europe. I think one of their first big songs "Love Me Do" was recorded at the time so with only that, they might only be a footnote in history, I wonder what conditions the UK and Europe would be in?


I might be showing my political bias a bit here, but I doubt you get a lot of the shenangians in the late 1960's as a result of the Vietnam War that still reverberate to this very day. Sure there were some things that needed address such as Civil Rights as such, but some of the other stuff has led to the "gimmee society" we have now along with "political correctness." If it still came up, I'm sure you would get a response similar to World War II where "hey, there's a war on" or "hey, we need to rebuild America."


I wonder what America would look like in 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2004 in this timeline?


On a personal note, my father served in the Army from 1955-57. He was in Japan, Korean, White Sands Missile Range as a photographer. After you got out of the Army, you were still on inactive reserve for several years. My mother was worried that he was going to get called up during the Cuban Missile Crisis but instead he got his final discharge from the Army during the crisis. In a prior message, if things went hot in 1962, I might not be here or a different person since I was born in 1966.


Chuck

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graebarde 01-10-2004, 09:38 PM snipped reviews...


The Minority Equation..


IIRC it was about this time the major desegregation was taking place. In the south it would have come to a screetching halt IMHO with a massive societial upheval of a nuclear war. But then that war might just have been the catalyst to speed it up, as everyone is reduced to survival, and it is the 'minority' of every race that is the trouble makers in the first place.


And George Wallace was the governor of Alabama, NOT Mississippi.. but heck Mississippi was worse than Alabama, just not as in the news I think. Even in the mid 70's there was a racisit-segregationist view in the deep south. THe Klan would rise it's ugly head in many areas IMHO.


As was said AIM was a 70's thing, however there were militants on the reservations even in teh 60s. I grew up about 10 miles from the Ft Totten res, where Russel Means was raised. Whites did NOT go down there and mess around generally.. you could wake up dead in a ditch, or cut up bad at least. I think there would have been a moving out from the res to survive. The iherient problems of the time (and they still exist to an extent today, maybe worse for all I know) were alcohol, and government handouts. Yes, I realize the government under teh treaties siad they would support them, but with the collapse there would be a drive to survive. And I think the tribes in general would be banding together (no NOT different tribes, but same tribes on different reservations). IT woudl also be a time for 'getting even' as on the Totten res ther were Sioux/Lakota AND Chippewa/Ojibwe that were historically blood enemies, infact there were often troubles between the tribes.


Music...

Buddy Holley, Elvis Presley, Big Bopper.. ROCK AND ROLL BABY!!! and Countrybilly (Red Sovine, Webb Pierce) .. blues and jazz..


Very FEW FM stations, and ALL the radios had triangles at 640AM and 1240AM 'Conelrad'.


There was still Radio programs such as the Lone ranger, Amos and Andy, etc (though they MAY have been reruns we still listened to them) and on Sunday morniing CJOB (Winnepeg) had a Blue Boy Icecream sponsored duo that read the sunday funnies with Blondie, Dick Tracy, and others..)


TV.. Ed Sullivan, Red Skeleton, Playhouse 90, IF you had a TV and lived where you could receive TV.


<sigh> thanks for the memories fellas... nostalgia strikes.


One figure that is missing in the equation besides the KKK, and American Nazi party is the American Comunisty party led by Gus Hall (though I don't think he was the leader in 62, and I don't know off hand who was) but THEY were VERY pro-Russia and caused problems (unproven they were behind ALOT of the unrest in the late 60s under various names)

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graebarde 01-10-2004, 10:05 PM another thing to think about.. in this time frame (62) the vehicles were much simpler than today.. points and condensers NO electronics to fry from EMP.. and TV and radios were tube (let it warm up before listening) that were relatively EMP proof, or so Im led to beleive.


You'd see cars/trucks running until the fuel ran out, (or they broke and weren't repaired from lack of parts) but the government would be quick to commandeer all fuel and impliment rationing of same I'm sure, (at any level) so there would be fewer on the roads.


By any level I mean in small rural communities, as well as cities, there are large bulk tanks for fuel (gasoline, diesel fuel, and heating fuel). Im sure the local authorities (IF they were prudent and smart, which I'll give them the benefit of the doubt about both in the early 60's) would see quickly that was their ONLY supplies for the unforseable future and lock them up. It might not (and Im sure would not) please the population, but the most of the elders would remember WW2 when you could only get gas with a ration card and NOT riot as I could IMO see them doing today.


Another thing is in this time the railroads were still running passenger trains (no AMTRAK), and served more of the smaller towns where they abandoned the rails in the late 70s, 80s and 90s. A few of the railroads then still had STEAM power, at least in reserve or branch line service, but Norfolk & Western (THE coal hauler in Virginia) was almost exclusively steam till near this time.


IMO this would help speed recovery, though, depending on targets hit, the interchages would be disrupted. Trains would be THE main intercity transport again IMHO due to fuel shortages.


thoughts?

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nmdecke 01-11-2004, 09:02 AM More great stuff. I think I'll put all the replies on the forum in a link on the site for the gazetter if nobdy minds. All this great info would come in handy for anyone looking to run a game in this world. It is a bit beyond the scope of what the gazetter was intended to be, though, which is a shame because if I had more imagination and time I could really flesh out the timeline with everything we have talked about. My next challenge is assigning the classic T2K area terms (Organized, Insular, Anarcy, etc...) to the states and regions. Any ideas on those?


A few bonus questions...


Was the Army desegregated in 1962? Were there "black only" units still at that time?


Anybody know anything about tactical nukes? Were the actual warheads kept with the divisions or in some central armory somewhere? I mean the Honest Johns and the artillery rounds mostly, weapons of that size.


Any historical figures that you all might think would have a role in this timeline? What would a young Clint Eastwood be doing? I think I have a young George Bush in San Antonio, but what about a younger Ron Reagan or Nixon? Any famous general from the Vietnam era make a splash in 1962?


This is a throw-away, but for those of you who believe, the UFO crash at Roswell was only 15 years ago, and the 1960s were a time of almost daily UFO sightings in America. Any thoughts on a Twilight 1964--Dark Conspiracy 1964 crossover?


Oh, and TR, I probably can't nuke Bunker Hill AFB because I spent so much effort on making NE Indiana the oasis of the state that having a big ole dirty H-Bomb popping just 45 miles upwind and spreading its rooster tail across the area would negate much of what I wrote. Sorry. I really didn't hit too many SAC bases to begin with because I wanted to have the majority of the big nukes aimed on city targets. I read a book when I first started this project about the Soviet's nuclear strategy in the late 1950s when they just had a few missiles. Their plan was to use the big nukes on cities and save the airbases and silo complexes for bomber raids. The ICBMs were very inacurate so they figured that they would be better aimed at a huge city than a small airfield that they might miss by ten miles, the bombers would be much more accurate and if timed right, would catch the US missiles still prepping in their silos. That is the formula that I based everything on, but severely cut back on the bomber raids as I just cant see too many Bears making it past the USAF fighters and the Nike rings.


nathan

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graebarde 01-11-2004, 06:03 PM bonus questions .....


Was the Army desegregated in 1962?


Yep.. they desegregated by 1955 (actually I think it actually happened earlier during the Korean 'conflict'). NO 'all blacks' at this time except in the Kiwi rugby union :))



tactical nukes? Were the actual warheads kept with the divisions ?



AFAIK they were stored in special ASPs within the division. They were in the 70s and I dont think they changed much from the previous ten years. It made for greater dispersion and faster load outs.


What would a young Clint Eastwood be doing?

Not exactly sure, but I think this is about the time the TV series Rawhide came out. At any rate he was in Hollywood stuggling to get on the screne. Ronnie R was an active actor at this time.




To quote "There are NO UFOs..." so says the USAF Operation Bluebook that investigated (allegidley) all UFO sitings.

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graebarde 01-11-2004, 06:07 PM as for assignement of organized etc to areas, I think I would start with target areas as anarchy, and ring out, with organized being more prevelant and insular in some areas, especially the more remote areas. It all dependson how you feel the survivng governments would react as to how organized any area is IMHO.

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Chuck Mandus 01-11-2004, 06:37 PM George Lincoln Rockwell, speak of the Devil, after I watched "Shazam" on TV Land, I did some channel surfing and there he was on the "History Channel." The documentary was about the American Nazi Party. From what I understand, Rockwell's Nazi HQ was in Arlington, Virginia near DC so that could have been blown away although just prior to things getting hot, there was ample warning so I'm sure Rockwell & Co. would hightail it out and hole up somewhere in the mountains.


Rockwell was a piece of work, I saw a still pic of him smoking his corncob pipe and his eyes were bugged out, if crack was around in 1966 which it wasn't so far as I know, it looks like he was smokin' some :p


I found a brief article about Rockwell here:


http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lincoln_Rockwell


I know he was killed in 1967 during a power struggle because as TR pointed out, he did manage to get others within his party PO'ed at him. Now in 1962, was the schism there? I'm not sure. I know he and Malcolm X got along well despite their differences, it seems they wanted basically the same thing for their repsective followers, according to the Wikipedia article, Rockwell did make a donation to the Nation of Islam. Malcolm X is another figure I wonder about in this timeline.


Army integration, I think President Truman made it policy in the late 1940's certainly around the time of the Korean War so things should be moving fairly well by 1962.


UFO's and other stuff, at that time, there have been people who claimed to have been contacted and even invited or abducted by aliens. I think the word of that time was "contactee." Of course, most of this was below the radar for most people, at least until the famous 1961 abduction case of Barney and Betty Hill. Project Bluebook was still in action, it ran from 1947 to 1969.

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nmdecke 01-12-2004, 06:53 AM By the way, perhaps someone would be willing to let go of their copy of the ellusive East European Sourcebook so I can convert it to Twilight 1964 standards? I'd even take a Xerox or a .pdf if that's all that's available. This is the only module that I have not yet strip mined for ideas and plot points, mostly because I am not willing to pay 50 bucks for it on eBay. I have much trade bait, including the equally ellusive Survivor's Guide to the UK (and a bunch of Godzilla movies)...just make me a deal. nathan

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nmdecke 01-13-2004, 03:07 PM Public thanks to Kato for letting me pry a copy of the East European Sourcebook from his fingers. Why is that module so difficult to find? Did they only print a handful of them? Is it going be included in the new reprints? nathan

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TR 01-13-2004, 05:56 PM I think the reason the East European Sourcebook is tough to find is was near the end of GDW's production run before they folded. I am not sure how many were made but I imagine most folk didn't see it in the stores (I know I didn't see it here in Colorado)...


Considering that the reprints from Far Future is a slow process who knows how long it would be before it gets reprinted. I bought their advance order of the main book with the first 4 adventures and the exclusive artwork included but still it was a year almost from time of order to being in my hands.


Still hopefully that will change!



TR

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Chuck Mandus 01-15-2004, 07:50 PM Hmmm, Twilight: 1964 and Dark Conspiracy crossover. Some good fodder for ideas are the mid 1990's TV series "Dark Skies" where a couple is on the run from "Majestic 12" during the 1960s where they try to stay away and even sometimes help Majestic fight aliens, depending on the situation. It tied a lot of 1960's history into the alien conspiracy like the 1964 Beatles broadcast on Ed Sullivan, the aliens were going to beam "mind control rays" out to the public, one of the former Majestic stuff who is part "Hive" and with the aliens killed a man named "Charlie Mansion" and assumed his identity in 1967, and so on. The series was cancelled after a season, it was supposed to continue onward into the 1970's and up to 1996/2000 maybe.


Other good fodder is the Steven Spielberg mini-series "Taken" that starts from 1944 to now about a secret group tracking aliens and wonder what they are up to. I got a big kick out of the first director at Area 51 where it showed a B-2 Stealth bomber flying around in 1958. The ending was kind of anti-climatical, it was slow and drawn out in some spots though.


Chuck

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no_name 01-16-2004, 01:42 AM hey so how about giving credit to your sources!?!!


:)

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nmdecke 01-16-2004, 06:01 AM Credit to my sources?


Ok. I would like to sincerely thank every single website devoted to T2k on the internet for providing me with bits and chunks of my little project, and the fine folks at Far Futures and the long lost souls at GDW for creating such a fine game. As well, I would like to thank the authors of about 300 assorted books and magazines, the production staff of about 50 movies, and my lovely wife for letting me type while she watched the baby.


Yes, I have committed wonton acts of plagarism and theivery. If this were an academic project, I would have been expelled. If I was trying to sell it and make money, I would have been sued. As I have plainly stated on numerous occasions both in my site and on this forum, I did not cite sources in the document as I never intended it to be seen by anyone other than the handful of people who I associate with. To cite or footnote every single instance where someone's ideas have been inserted would make the document a royal mess and I simply don't have the time to do it. Besides, I don't even remember where I got 95% of the stuff.


No-Name, did I steal something of yours? If so, let me know and I will footnote the relevant passage. My only intention in posting the document on the web was to allow all the fans of the game an opportunity to see what I have created. It is simply a service to the gaming community, not an attempt to claim any credit for myself. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to email me.


And if anyone else out there on the forum feels like I have done them wrong, please don't hesitate to tell me. I will gladly excise any part of the document which is a problem. Thank you all.


Nathan

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AzSteven 01-22-2004, 02:37 PM Originally posted by James1978

As for the Army depots, they may have been a treasure trove early on to whomever controlled them. I once read that the US kept Sherman tanks in the war-reserve stockpile into the 1960s. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but a few dozen Sherman tanks would make someone a major force in this world. There are probably a lot of Garrand rifles floating around as well as other WW II surplus.


Fort Wingate in northern New Mexico had a large number of WWII and Korean War vehicles in storage, including Sherman tanks, up until the 1970s or maybe even later. I think it was one of the central clearing grounds for selling surplus vehicles for scrap or reuse, much like Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson currently does with aircraft.

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ReHerakhte 01-24-2004, 03:04 AM Just as a "what did they have" kind of listing (and because I'm a mad turret-head), I thought I'd post this to show the types of armoured vehicles you could encounter in this timeline. Keep in mind that although a number of the vehicles listed were produced during or just after WW2, many of them continued in service into the 1950s or later when in the hands of other nations, e.g. the M24 was still in use with some countries up to the 1990s.



USA: Tanks

75mm & 76mm M4 Sherman, 1942

90mm M26 Pershing heavy tank, 1944

75mm M24 Chaffee light tank, 1944

76mm M41 Walker Bulldog light tank, 1951

120mm M103 heavy tank, 1952 (only 200 built IRL)

90mm M47 Patton I, 1952

90mm M48 Patton II, 1953 (upgunned with British 105mm sometime in the 1960s)

105mm M60, 1960

152mm gun/missile launcher M551 Sheridan, 1960


USA: Armoured Cars

12.7mm M3 White Scout Car 4x4, 1939 (many thousands still in service with France & South American nations)

37mm M8 Greyhound 6x6, 1943 (same story as M3 above)

12.7mm M20 Armoured Utility Car 6x6 (version of M8 Greyhound)

12.7mm Cadillac Gage V-100 Commando 4x4, 1964


USA: Armoured Personnel Carriers (APCs)

M3 Half-track, 1938 (many thousands in use with other nations e.g. France)

M75 APC, 1952 (1729 made, used by European based US units until retired or sold to Belgium when M59 was available)

M59 APC, 1953 (6300 made until replaced by M113)

M113 APC, 1956 (M577 Command Post variant made in 1962)

LVTP5, 1956 (1123 made for USMC)


USA: Self-Propelled Guns (SPGs)

76mm M18 Hellcat tank destroyer, 1943 (many given to France and Yugoslavia after WW2, Yugoslav M18s were still in use up to 1990s)

90mm M36 tank destroyer, 1944 (similar background to M18, Croatia was still using them up to 1990s)

90mm M56 Scorpion tank destroyer, 1953

6 x 106mm Rcl M50 Ontos tank destroyer, 1955 (Ontos is Greek for 'Thing')

75mm M3 Half-track Gun Motor Carriage, 1941-44 (over 2200 built, after US Army acquired fully tracked SPGs, many of these were given to the British)

105mm M7 Priest Howitzer Motor Carriage, 1942 (after being withdrawn from US service many were acquired by the Austrians)

155mm M40 SPG, 1945 (a number were supplied to allied nations after WW2 such as France and the UK, UK might still have had them up to the late 1950s)

155mm M44 SP Howitzer, 1950 (a number sold to UK in late 1950s)

175mm M107 SPG, 1961

105mm M108 SPG, 1962 (basically the same as the M109 but with a lower calibre gun)

155mm M109 SPG, 1963


UK: Tanks (note: Infantry tanks were literally seen as mobile bunkers to support the Infantry, Cruiser tanks were used in the cavalry role)

2pdr (40mm) Churchill Infantry Tank, 1941 (around 5400 built with many variants still serving in UK into the 1950s)

6pdr (57mm) Cromwell Cruiser Tank, 1943 (being phased out but many were rebuilt as Charioteer tank destroyers)

17pdr (76mm) Comet Cruiser Tank, 1945 (still in use with UK until the early 1960s but retained in Finland and Eire until 1970s)

17pdr (76.2mm) Centurion MBT, 1945 (models sporting a 105mm gun built from 1958)

120mm Conqueror heavy tank, 1956 (around 200 built)

120mm Chieftain MBT, 1963 (in the 1960s this was the best armed & best protected tank in the world... but slow!)

Vickers Mk I MBT, 1964 (designed for the export market with India taking a significant number)


UK: Armoured Cars

Bren Gun Carrier, 1934 (many thousands made in UK, Australia, Canada & New Zealand and retained into the 1950s in the Command Post role, originally designed to transport the Bren Gun and its crew)

Universal Carrier, 1938 (very similar in most respects to Bren Gun Carrier, about 70 000 built in UK, Australia, Canada & New Zealand and 14 000 built as T-16 in USA, originally designed to haul ammo for the 18pdr gun but was also used to carry mortars & their crews

Daimler Dingo Scout Car 4x4, 1938 (some were modernized after WW2 and staid in service into the 1950s)

15mm Besa HMG Humber Scout Car 4x4, 1941 (many still in service in some SE Asian countries into the 1960s)

.30 Browning Ferret Scout Car 4x4, 1953

76mm Saladin Armoured Car 6x6, 1959


UK: APCs

.30 Browning Saracen APC 6x6, 1953

Humber 'Pig' FV1600 APC 4x4, 1955

FV432 APC, 1962


UK: SPGs

17pdr (76.2mm) Archer tank destroyer, 1943 (based upon the Valentine tank, about 660 made, some passed onto friendly nations after WW2, such as Egypt, some retained in UK service till mid-1950s)

Hornet tank destroyer, 1953 (basically a Humber 'Pig' modified to carry & launch the Malkara ATGW, Malkara had largest warhead of its time and was capable of destroying all known tanks, retained in UK service until 1970s)

20pdr (83.8mm) Charioteer tank destroyer, 1954 (retired sometime after 1958 when 105mm Centurion came into service but a number still in use with Middle Eastern nations into 1970s)

FV438 tank destroyer, 1962 (variant of FV432 APC fitted with twin launcher for Swingfire ATGW)

105mm Abbot SPG, 1964


France: Tanks

37mm Hotchkiss H-39 Light Tank, 1939 (many of these could still be found in use in the Middle East and the Far East with such countries such as Afghanistan - * my mistake, the Afghans had the Renault FT-17 light tank)

75mm AMX-13, 1948 (about 7700 made with many sold to foreign militaries, later models upgunned with 90mm gun)

105mm AMX-30, 1960


France: Armoured Cars

75mm Panhard EBR Recce Vehicle 8x8/4x4, 1950 (used AMX-13 turret, travelled as 4x4 on roads and lowered additional wheels for cross-country travel, exported to Morocco, Tunisia and Portugal)

90mm Panhard AML Armoured Car, 1960 (also available with 60mm breech loading mortar, built in South Africa as the Eland)


France: APCs

AMC-VCI Infantry Combat Vehicle, 1950 (users included Mexico with 401 examples)

20mm Hotchkiss Carrier - German Variant, Spz 11, 1956 (one of the first armoured vehicles of the newly created Bundeswehr but used typically in the Recce role rather than as an APC, also available as turretless Command Vehicle, Light Ambulance, 81mm Mortar Carrier, last vehicles retired from German service in 1976)


France: SPGs

105mm Mk 61, 1950 (also acquired by the Dutch)

155mm Mk F3, 1962 (also sold to Morocco)


Germany: Tanks

37mm PzKpfw III, 1937 (the French were supposed to have gathered together a decent number of these after the war when cleaning up the old battlegrounds)

75mm PzKpfw IV Ausf H - modified, 1940s (bizarre but true, the French rebuilt a number of these they had recovered after WW2 and sold them to Syria who used them on the Golan in an independent tank battalion, possibly against Shermans of the Israelis!)

105mm Leopard 1A1, 1963 (one of the best 'all-round' designs combining good firepower, good speed and decent armour, it would be widely exported and continuously updated, the ARV version was produced from 1966)


Germany: Armoured Cars

SdKfz 221 4x4, 1935 (a number of these were left in North Africa and used by the newly independent nations until supplies of the more plentiful European & US vehicles were obtained)

20mm SdKfz 222 4x4, 1939 (see note for SdKfz 221)

7.92mm MG (East German) SK-1 Armoured Car, 1954 (issued to internal security and border patrol units)


Germany: APCs

SdKfz 251 Half-track (a small number of these were used by a few countries after WW2 but junked after supplies of the more plentiful European & US vehicles were obtained, France was rumoured to have had a number of them after cleaning up after WW2)

20mm HS-30 Carrier/Spz 12-3 APC, 1955 (a Swiss design built in Germany, one of the first Infantry Combat Vehicle designs and the first APC for the Bundeswehr, available as Command Post vehicle and 120mm Mortar Carrier)

20mm Marder 1 Infantry Combat Vehicle, 1961 (first prototypes were available in 1961 but the protracted development meant that models didn't enter service till 1971, one of the first advanced infantry combat vehicles)

Henschel HWK-11 APC, 1963 (developed as a family of vehicles in the early 1960s, it wasn't adopted except for Mexico who took 40 in 1964-65, they remain in service as of 2001)


Germany: SPGs

75mm Panzerjager 38(t) Hetzer, 1944 (with over 2500 built a number of these continued in Czechoslovak service after WW2, kinda funny considering the design was based upon a Czechoslovak tank design in the first place)

90mm JagdPanzer Kanone, 1959

JagdPanzer Rakete, 1963 (armed with single, pop-up launcher for SS-11 ATGW)


Other Western European nations

Austria:

20mm Saurer 4K 4FA APC, 1961


Denmark:

76mm M41 DK light tank (a modernized US M41 used by the Danes into the 1980s)


Netherlands:

YP-408 APC 8x8, 1963


Spain:

90mm Upgraded M47, 1952

105mm Upgraded M48, 1954


Sweden:

75mm Strv 74 Light Tank, 1958

Pbv 301 APC (a design based upon the Swedish M/41 light tank that was itself based upon a Czech design, it would lead to the Pbv 302 design of 1966)


Switzerland:

105mm Pz61 MBT, 1961

Mowag MR8-01 APC 4x4, 1958 (conceived as an internal security vehicle, the only customer was the West German border guard)

75mm G-13 TD tank destroyer (a Swiss modernization of the WW2 German Hetzer, the Swiss still had 158 of them into the 1970s)


Eastern European nations

Czechoslovakia:

OT-810 Half-track, 1948 (a Czech adaptation of the WW2 German SdKfz 251 which the Romanians also bought, an anti-tank version with the 82mm M59A recoilless rifle was available)


Hungary:

OT-65/FUG Recce Vehicle 4x4, 1964 (a Hungarian answer to the Soviet BRDM-1, a number were supplied to Poland and Czechoslovakia hence the OT-65 designation, other models included a turret mounting an 82mm Recoilless Rifle)


Russia/Soviet Union: Tanks

76.2mm KV-I heavy tank, 1939 (although withdrawn from service in 1943, a number were placed in storage rather than disposed of)

152mm KV-II heavy tank, 1940 (the same notes as the KV-I apply although the KV-II was withdrawn in 1942)

76.2mm T34/76 MBT, 1940 (off those T34/76s that hadn't been replaced by the T34/85, a number were placed in storage)

122mm IS-2 heavy tank, 1944 (many of these were kept on as the mainstay of heavy armoured formations in the Soviet military with a number being sold off to countries such as Egypt during the 1970s)

85mm T34/85, 1944 (many of these tanks were kept in service into the 1960s with production only ending in 1964, Poland and Czechoslovakia licensed produced it and many could still be found in use in Yugoslavia into the 1990s)

122mm IS-3 heavy tank, 1945 (an improvement of the earlier IS-2, it was probably the most formidable tank in the world at the time and caused NATO leaders many headaches)

100mm T-54 MBT, 1948 (a refinement of the earlier T44 design, by the time production ended in the 1970s, over 95 000 had been built and distributed amongst client states)

76.2mm PT-76 Light Tank, 1952

122mm T-10 heavy tank, 1953

100mm T-55 MBT, 1958 (like the T-54, built in large numbers and widely distributed)

115mm T-62 MBT, 1961


Russia/Soviet Union: Armoured Cars

BRDM-1 Scout Car 4x4, 1959 (also available as a tank destroyer, see SPG section)

BRDM-2 Scout Car 4x4, 1963 (also available as a ATGW tank destroyer from 1965 and later as an anti-aircraft system)


Russia/Soviet Union: APCs

BTR-40 4x4, 1950 (produced in a number of variants including Command Post, Ambulance, AA Gun System and specialized recce)

BTR-152 6x6, 1950 (quite literally a copy of the US and German Half-tracks of WW2, while discarding the track system it was still a mediocre vehicle but produced in huge numbers and therefore cheap, widely distributed amongst client states, available in Command Post, AA Gun System, Ambulance)

BTR-50 APC, 1957 (also produced in Poland, Czechoslovakia and China, it remained the standard Soviet tracked APC until the introduction of the BMP-1)

BTR-60 APC 8x8, 1961 (originally turretless and with an open top until the BTR-60A model which gave it a turret mounted 14.5mm HMG)


Russia/Soviet Union: SPGs

57mm ASU-57 tank destroyer, 1951 (designed as a light assault gun/tank destroyer for Soviet airborne forces, it served well into the 1980s)

BRDM-1 tank destroyer (armed with a 4 missile launcher for the AT-1 Snapper or AT-2 Swatter ATGW and latter models carried an overhead launcher for the AT-3 Sagger)

85mm ASU-85 tank destroyer, 1962 (a follow up design to the ASU-57 meant to be air landed rather than para-dropped like the ASU-57)

76.2mm SU-76 Assault Gun, 1942 (designed to support the infantry and also kill tanks, it was outclassed by the time it entered service, produced in greater numbers than any other Soviet vehicle except the T-34, it served on after WW2 with a number of WarPac forces)

152mm SU-152/ISU-152 Assault Gun, 1943 (basically an IS-2 carrying a howitzer, although limited by its small ammo capacity it remained in service well after WW2)

85mm SU-85 Assault Gun, 1943 (although effectively replaced by the SU-100, many remained in storage after the war)

100mm SU-100 Assault Gun, 1944 (just over 1500 were made and it remained in Red Army service into the 1950s)

122mm SU-122/ISU-122 Assault Gun (although production ended during the war it was resumed in 1947 and finally ceased in 1952, it was widely exported to Africa and Asia)


Other Nations

Canada:

25pdr (87.1mm) Sexton SPG, 1943 (although developed for WW2, many continued well into the 1950s with British and Canadian forces as the mainstay of their SP artillery and it could also be found in service with Portugal and South Africa)


China:

100mm Type 59 MBT, 1959 (Chinese adaptation of the T-54)

85mm Type 62 Light Tank, 1962 (a scaled down version of the Type 59)

85mm Type 63 Light Tank, 1963 (Chinese amphibious tank similar to PT-76, fitted with Type 59 turret)


Israel:

75mm Upgraded Sherman MBT, 1950s

105mm Upgraded T55 MBT, 1961 (one of numerous types of Soviet vehicles captured from the Arabs by the Israelis, modifications included a new engine & transmission, 105mm gun, new stabilization & fire control, air conditioning and passive night vision gear)

Modified US Half-Track, 1960s (the Israelis had hundreds of US half-tracks and used them not just as APCs but also as Ambulances, Command vehicles, Mortar Carriers, AA Gun Systems and Ammunition Carriers)


Japan:

90mm Type 61 MBT, 1962

Type 60 APC, 1960

2 x 106mm Rcl Type 60 Tank Destroyer, 1960



Hopefully this will prove useful.

And after all that, I'll leave it to someone else to detail anything else (like aircraft or smallarms, TR where are you?!)


Cheers,

Kevin

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nmdecke 01-24-2004, 03:28 AM Wow, great list. I have a similar list for US vehicles but now I have one for the rest of the world, thanks. Since America in my timeline is rather isolated, my main concern are the vehicles of Mexico and Canada. Other than the AMC VCI apc you mentioned, do you have any idea what Mexico's army was equipted with in the early 1960? I know that they had batches of Shermans and Stuarts, but I don't know any more than that. Did they have vehicles made by other countries, or was it almost entirely surplus American stuff? And since I have some Canadian incursions across the northern border, what type of vehciles might you encounter in these raids? I assume all the Canadian heavy units were shipped out to war, but some of the left-behinds would still have some armor. Thanks again.

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[kato13]

ReHerakhte 01-24-2004, 08:44 AM Well, offhand I don't have a good source of material dealing with the Mexican military of the 1950s-60s and only a little more than that for Canada of the same timeline. I will deal with Canada first as I know somewhat more about it but if anyone has better info please jump in as I never did much study on the 1950s to 1960s period.


Like many British Commonwealth nations of the time, Canada was still making use of a good number of WW2 vehicles (like the 25pdr Sexton SPG mentioned below) and was still heavily influenced by the British military. WW2 surplus was plentiful for the Allied nations and as can be seen on my initial listing, many of the newer designs didn't start to come into being until the very late 1950s or early 1960s.

Something I did miss from the Canadian listing was the locally designed, although based of the US M3, Ram cruiser tank. I don't think enough of them were left to carry on service into the 1950s so I didn't list it, but a development known as the Kangaroo was still being used. Essentially a gun tank with the turret removed so it could carry a Section/Squad of troops, it was used in the final stages of WW2 in its intended APC role but the Canadians continued to use them well after as a towing vehicle for anti-tank guns and also as ammo resupply vehicles. These things are converted tanks so they are heavily armoured and had enought room to carry 11 troops and a crew of 2 (the precursor to the heavy APCs the Russians are developing at the moment, although the Kangaroo had no weapons from what I remember). The Kangaroos also served as radio vehicles and Rams were also built as Armoured Recovery Vehicles.


The Canadians also developed a local variant of the Sherman known as the Grizzly I cruiser tank. Built for the US Army as the US didn't have the facilities yet established for mass production of tanks, only a small number were built before the US got into high gear. This is not a tank likely to be encountered in any numbers but the majority of the 188 built were retained for amoured warfare training by the Canadians so I suppose it's possible that a few may have survived in storage during the 1950s.

A variant model was built as an anti-aircraft system. Known as the Skink, only a few were built before the Luftwaffe was defeated but one did serve with the Canucks and was put to good use in the ground role scaring the crap out of the German infantry it was used against. Check out Tank AA, 20mm Quad, Skink (http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/3351/allweps/skink.html) for some pics and a description. It wouldn't be too difficult to imagine this vehicle being put back into production as it would probably be the only mobile & armoured AA system available to the Canadians at that time.


The Canucks made good use of the Universal Carrier having built over 29 000 of them for their own use and for other Commonwealth nations and a good number survived into the 1950s with many being sold to civilians when they were retired from service.

The Canadians also used a good number of M5A1 Stuart light tanks. Fast & reliable, they were often used in the recce role in Commonwealth armies, something they continued to do for some countries after the war. A number of them had their turrets removed to make them lighter (hence, faster) and lower in profile for the recce role. It's possible the Canadians still had some placed into storage when they adopted the Ferret scout car.

The Canadians also made use of the Saladin armoured car from what I recall and I'm pretty sure they also used the Saracen APC. Apparently they also made use of the M8 Greyhound in the Korean War so it's possible they have a few of them still around by 1964. They also made use of the M3 White Scout Car.

I believe the MBT at the time was the Centurion probably with a 17pdr main gun. The Centurion was probably the best tank of the 1940s-1950s and continued in service with the UK into the 1960s (it was also bought by Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Israel, South Africa and Australia amongst others)


Something else to consider is that the Canadians did a lot of work in the late 1950s to bring helicopters into land warfare and are considered the pioneers of close intergration of helicopters with tactical units, they also created the technique of 'Nap of the earth' flying. If they had enough helos, you could probably expect them to use heliborne assaults like the US Airmobile units did in the 1970s.


Mexico.

Not surprisingly, there is not a lot of readily available info about Mexico around but I understand that they did not have a lot of armoured vehicles considering the size of their army. Besides the 40 HWK-11's they got in 1964, they had very little in the way of APCs, they got some US Half-tracks in the 1960s although I think they didn't recieve the AMX-VCI until the late 1960s. It could be argued that with the war beginning in 1964, the Germans kept the HWK-11's for their own use rather than ship them to Mexico.

From what little I can find, the Mexican army was for all intents and purposes, limited to light infantry work with limited transport from military trucks and whatever civvy trucks they could get a hold of. However, they were making the Volkswagen Beetle under licence in the 1950s so they could possibly have produced field car versions for military use if they got desperate.


As for tanks, they had been given a number of surplus WW2 US models such as the M3A1 Stuart & M5A1 Stuart light tanks (which incidently still made up their tank force as of the 1990s). They also had M4 Shermans at one point although I don't know when they disposed of them.

Other Mexican armour included 50 or so M2A1 Half-tracks but these were received in the 1960s, M5 Half-tracks probably received at the same time, M8 Greyhounds, M3A1 White scout cars.


That's all I got sorry but it's something to work from. I couldn't imagine the Mexicans using their light tanks against US armour but they'd probably use it against softer targets. No matter how good they might be they wouldn't be able to stand up to a reasonably well equipped US unit of similar size which would probably see them acting as bandits or raiding forces (hoping to steal resources).


The Canadians would be an altogether different story, being equiped with modern vehicles of British origin (not war weary surplus models) and developing many aggressive tactical doctrines for combined arms, they would probably do very well in a 1960s WW3. But as pointed out, their best would have gone to Europe where at least they could still be resupplied by the UK. The units in Canada would be reliant upon sea convoys to deliver spares and replacements to North America, assuming the Brits had any to send. Given that Canada designed and produced some very good designs at short notice during WW2, they would probably pull off the same thing although it would likely be directed towards making copies of the British vehicles they already use rather than design something entirely new.

The Canadians could probably reintroduce production of the Canadian Military Pattern (CMP) vehicles, although a 1930s or 40s design, this series of vehicles served with nearly every major Commonwealth country and continued in service until the mid or late 1950s.


Its also worth keeping in mind that I pillaged plenty of this info from two spots on the one website, http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/ with some of it based on best guesses.


Cheers,

Kevin.

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graebarde 01-24-2004, 10:06 AM I couldn't imagine the Mexicans using their light tanks against US armour but they'd probably use it against softer targets. No matter how good they might be they wouldn't be able to stand up to a reasonably well equipped US unit of similar size which would probably see them acting as bandits or raiding forces (hoping to steal resources).


That's about what I would invision even in the '98 TL as well. I still wonder what they were thinking that the Mexican army won overwhelming victories against US forces that had armor, but then it's not my writing.

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nmdecke 01-24-2004, 01:28 PM >>>>That's about what I would invision even in the '98 TL as well. I still wonder what they were thinking that the Mexican army won overwhelming victories against US forces that had armor, but then it's not my writing.<<<


I think the blinding hatred everyone has for City of Angels is the idea that Mexico is rolling out T-72s and BMPs instead of VW busses and donkeys. I could never see a way in GDW's timeline that America would allow Mexico (sharing a lengthy border and all) to become so socialist and stocked with Soviet weaponry. You'd think that we would be able to "exert some influence" on the Mexican leadership to turn down those shipments. Does it say anywhere in the canon that we nuked Mexico in responce for their invasion of us? Surely we did.


Oh, and I've been updating the Twilight 1964 pages like mad, probably added 5,000 words just this week. It has really grown Hydra heads...

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AzSteven 01-24-2004, 02:57 PM Originally posted by nmdecke




Actually, the Mexican government was in the process of purchasing about a brigade-set worth of armor and APCs from Germany in 1992 when the Peso's crash screwed up their foreign exchange values. Germany was selling off old East German gear at the time, but a couple of years later they opted to instead scrap most of their surplus WarPac gear. I beleive some of the Gulf States made some bulk vehicle prchases from Germany as well in the wake of the Gulf War and Desert Storm.

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[b]antimedic 02-09-2004, 03:49 PM Where can I find information on National Guard units in the early to mid 60's. I have spent several fruitless hours searching the web,my library and the local library. My next step will be to drive to the HQ for the Florida National Guard in St.Augustine. So if anybody knows of a website or book, please help so I can save some gas.

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