kato13
01-21-2010, 10:39 PM
antimedic 05-29-2004, 05:50 AM Other then the U.S and British Berlin Brigades, what other Nato units were stationed in West Berlin? Did the German Army have any units, and finally, were there any air units in the city?
********************
pmulcahy 05-29-2004, 06:38 AM The French also had about a brigade in West Berlin. The West Germans, though they weren't allowed to station any Bundeswehr troops in West Berlin, did have some pretty heavily armed police. Some of the police units had APCs, ATGM carriers, rocket launchers, ground-mount ATGMs, etc. -- they made a SWAT team look like a Boy Scout troop.
********************
Ed the Coastie 05-29-2004, 09:54 AM *chuckling* I don't know...I've known some pretty well-armed Boy Scout troops
********************
antimedic 05-29-2004, 02:50 PM The things they can do with a Swiss Army knife.
********************
Jason Weiser 05-29-2004, 06:38 PM Some pretty good info here!
Berlin Bde Page (with some useful links!) (http://usarmygermany.com/Units/Berlin%20Brigade/USAREUR_Berlin%20Brigade.htm)
********************
shrike6 05-29-2004, 08:21 PM You know, this makes me wonder what happened to the French Berlin Brigade.
********************
James1978 05-29-2004, 10:15 PM Originally posted by pmulcahy
The West Germans, though they weren't allowed to station any Bundeswehr troops in West Berlin, did have some pretty heavily armed police. Some of the police units had APCs, ATGM carriers, rocket launchers, ground-mount ATGMs, etc. -- they made a SWAT team look like a Boy Scout troop. Years ago I saw a picture of a Leopard 1 tank painted up like a West Berlin police car and it had "Polize" on it in big letters. One of the oddest things I ever saw.
********************
Antenna 05-30-2004, 08:15 PM I posted couple of months ago a OOB for the US Berlin Brigade
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/m2k/oob/usa/berlin.htm
//Antenna
********************
evilmike 05-31-2004, 06:36 PM The Berlin cops were the original 'Tank Police'..:)
********************
shrike6 06-01-2004, 01:20 PM I've posted a Berlin Brigade Orbat as well.
http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=188539#post188539
aa. Berlin Brigade - West Berlin, FRG
1) 5 -502nd Infantry Battalion (Mech)
2) 6 -502nd Infantry Battalion (Mech)
3) 6- 40th Armor Battalion
a) A Co/ 6- 40th Armor Battalion
b) B Co/ 6- 40th Armor Battalion
c) C Btry/ 320th Field Artillery Battalion
d) 42nd Engineer Company
4) Combat Support Battalion
a) 287th MP Company
b) 766th Military Intelligence Company
c) Service Company
d) Signal Support Company
********************
Matt Wiser 06-02-2004, 02:32 AM I'd bet that once the French declared their neutrality, the French Brigade stayed in Barracks, with the order not to fight unless attacked.
********************
shrike6 06-02-2004, 05:38 AM Matt,
I wonder what happened to the the French Brigade after that.
********************
Andy-Shot 06-02-2004, 12:01 PM They would have been a long way from home, in an increasingly hostile area, and no one was coming to help them. They would either have to hoof it back to france, fight on the sides of the allies because of surviveability, or stay and get nuked.
My guess would be that they pulled back and out when NATO crossed the border and they withdrew from the pact.
********************
shrike6 06-02-2004, 06:53 PM LES FORCES FRANCAISES a BERLIN.
46eme REGIMENT d'INFANTERIE
11eme REGIMENT de CHASSEURS
110eme COMPAGNIE du GENIE
MISSION MILITAIRE FRANCAISE de LIAISON (MMFL)
GROUPEMENT des SERVICES
********************
shrike6 06-02-2004, 08:32 PM There's also a detachment of French Gendarmeries as well as the Armee de l'Air detachment at BASE AERIENNE 165 (Tegel Airport)
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-03-2004, 09:57 AM Yes, but if they fight just to survive would the be welcome back home after they had disengaged... Or would they continue to fight with the Allies in the Berlin Division. :P
Gee up until this link never really gave it much thought. Largely due to the fact that before I joined the Army, I didn't even think we had troops still in there. Next about the same time the Berlin came down so there was no reason for the subject to come to mind and no else I have played with really brought it up either. So you have US Mech Brigade, UK Brigade, a French Brigade, and a Para-military Brigade made up over gunned police officers. Next would they stick together to become an adhoc Division. Just like the British are known to piece together or split up and be used indiviual Brigades or used for replacements. I like the concept of adhoc Allied Divisions though. Made Airmobile with the British 16th Airmobile, 173rd Airborne and the 6th Polish Air Assault...
********************
Andy-Shot 06-05-2004, 04:35 AM Why would the French fight though?
NATO was pushing through Germany at the time, and France withdrew from NATO. The French would have no reason to stay in Berlin to be wrapped up in the later fighting. On top of that, they would be so far from French Supply lines that even if France wanted them to fight, they couldn't have supported them with the Allies relations strained.
If I was France I would have pulled them back to help support the borders against NATO reprisals or in the event the Axis pushed the NATO push back. Fighting in Berlin would be a disadvantage to them. They probably went to Beligum or somewhere close by.
********************
shrike6 06-05-2004, 01:48 PM The only reason why I could see the French staying in Berlin is because of a time. Is there enough time for the French Forces in Berlin to pull out? If there isn't what then would they be better off staying in place or trying to evacuate West Berlin? If they do evacuate do they go by land or by air?
********************
Andy-Shot 06-06-2004, 09:20 PM at that point in time they could evac by air, as the war really hadnt started yet.
Again, I can see no reason for them to stay in Berlin once they withdrew from NATO and the war hadn't gotten there yet
********************
shrike6 06-06-2004, 09:51 PM Your going to have to let me if I'm wrong here because my books are packed away because I'm moving but if I remember correctly France pulled out of NATO after US and the UK crossed the inter- German border. Before that happened West Germany (later Germany) and the Soviet Forces in East Germany were going at it already. Maybe I'm wrong here but I really don't see an air evac as being highly successful in an enviroment where multiple Air Forces are duking it out. IMO I really don't see an air evac being possible until after NATO secures Germany.
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-07-2004, 07:41 AM I think if you go by V1. The French, US, and UK Brigades were caught in fight in Berlin between the Germans and the Soviets. Here I would suppect to the East German Border Guards to side with the Soviets. One of the few places with the East Germans didn't really accept their West German brothers as liberators.
Now as the before the mention West German 'Rambo' Police. Well I think the French, US, and UK would have to band together to survive. This would probably be the only French unit to fire upon Pact units during the War until the French entered Iraq in late 1999. Once other NATO or German units linked up with surrounded Berlin units then these units would have been withdrawn. For the French it would be home probably overland. For the US and UK probably used to fill in other units that weren't up to snuff at the time.
Just MHO.
Abbott
********************
graebarde 06-08-2004, 09:50 AM My take is the froggies sent a message to the Wp saying we are staying in barracks, please do not hurt us, and tehn they do what they do best, tucked tail and headed for home while the US/US covered their sorry asses as they withdrew.
********************
pmulcahy 06-08-2004, 10:17 AM Originally posted by graebarde
My take is the froggies sent a message to the Wp saying we are staying in barracks, please do not hurt us, and tehn they do what they do best, tucked tail and headed for home while the US/US covered their sorry asses as they withdrew.
And then went on to plague civilians in the Dead Zone, since they were essentially an unblooded unit...
Something is missing in this whole discussion: the Special Forces Detachment Berlin. I had a SGM once who was a part of that unit back in the 1970s; he told me their mission was essentially to leave Berlin immediately if hostilities started and go cause trouble for the WP in East Germany. He also told me that defending Berlin was basically considered a lost cause if a war started.
********************
graebarde 06-08-2004, 02:51 PM Not just the SF det Berlin, but the 10th SF battalion at Bad Tolz. When the balloon goes up, those boys will definately be in the east raising hell, forming resistance units, etc.
I had 'aquaintences' that were with the 10th, and they did some very 'interesting' training to say the least. That was back in the real COLD war era. 'I can tell ya but then I have to Kill ya.'
********************
Andy-Shot 06-08-2004, 04:06 PM How could you defend Berlin? It is already surrounded, and the Warsaw Pact would be hitting it with everything they had in the first part of the war to eliminate any rear guard attacks.
Its like trying to hold the Korea line in N. Korea invades...
********************
Matt Wiser 06-09-2004, 12:28 AM Well, it would have been a lost cause, but three NATO Brigades, plus those heavily armed West Berlin Cops would have tied down the Soviet Berlin Brigade, plus three Soviet MR Divisions (6th Guards, 14th Guards, and 19th Guards) of 20th Guards Army. How long they would have held out under an Army-size attack is something we never had to find out, fortunately for all concerned.
Once W. Berlin was basically dealt with, 20th Guards Army was to pull out and head west, leaving the mop-up to the Soviet Berlin Brigade and the East Germans. All of this came out when the Wall came down and the West had access to the old WARPAC war plans: they were of two variants-a variant with a nuclear opening, followed by a blitz to the Channel, and a conventional variant with nukes to be used only if NATO did so first. Only the nuke-only variant has been published. The plans were very detailed, with new road signs for West Germany, Denmark, Holland, and Belgium, occupation currency, streets in cities to be renamed, medals for the troops already minted, and a Stasi list of people to be arrested and sent off for "re-education" or to be liquidated. The Stasi list has not survived. Believe it or not, but among those on the list were members of the Baader-Meinhof Gang and other leftist groups-they were so disrespectful of any authority that they would have caused trouble to the Pact. Also, POW handling procedures were in place, with Americans, British, and French to be held by the Soviets, along with selected West Germans, the rest by the East Germans. Even the propaganda leaflets were already printed. One factiod: there was a Soviet GRU officer detailed to find every civilian gas station and car wash in West Germany, Holland, and Belgium. The gas stations-you can use captured fuel, and car washes can be used for NBC decontamination. They found tons of all this stuff in 1989-90.
********************
thefusilier 06-09-2004, 10:47 AM Hey,
It may have been a lost cause in some situations but in Twilight 2000 NATO units were driving East towards Berlin. No more lost cause if the beseiged city would be relieved. Besides, a city of that size with over a divisions worth of troops and stockpiles of untouched supplies could hold out for a very very long time. Armour dosn't mean much in urban enviroment and thats what the Soviets had for their greatest advantage. Also by the time the city became under attack the NATO units would have had time to fortify their positions, blockade streets, etc.
thefusilier
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-09-2004, 08:59 PM Yeah, well once the balloon went up both side Special Operation units would be sent forth to cause as much damage is humanly possible...lol
Abbott
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-09-2004, 09:05 PM Yes, but would the Soviets and Pact units move into West Berlin until the UK and US units joined the Germans. I think the Soviets would hold off as much as possible. Not wanting to expand the War anymore. Then again that IMHO
Abbott
********************
Matt Wiser 06-10-2004, 12:08 AM Kind of hard under the usual WW III scenarios where the first clash is not just in Berlin, but all over the Inner German Border. The Fulda and Hof Gaps, would have been very exciting (not to mention dangerous) places, as well as the North German Plain. There was very little mention in NATO from what's publicly available of pushing to West Berlin. Only a Blockade situation might have pushed NATO to even consider offensive action to lift the Blockade-you would have had an attempt at a Berlin Airlift II first. Still, even knowing that as you're going down you are tying up a Soviet Army-size formation would have been cold comfort to those in West Berlin, with no reinforcement and no resupply. It would have been WW III's Bataan. The longer they hold out means 20th Guards Army isn't going to reinforce the drive into West Germany. And 20th Guards trained mainly for a West Berlin operation in their exercises. (again, knowledge from the old WARPAC stuff found in East Germany) And given Soviet military justice, if 20th Guards' CO fails to take West Berlin on schedule.... if he's lucky, he gets shot. If he's not, it's either a GULAG or a Penal Battalion. If he gets to choose, he'd better take the Penal Battalion-at least he dies with his boots on.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 06-10-2004, 05:36 AM Are there any archives of the old WARPAC plans on the net anywhere? Its something that I would be very interested in personally and could make a great basisi for a game.
********************
Matt Wiser 06-10-2004, 11:55 PM Try a Google or Yahoo Search for The National Security Archive. They have stuff from both sides, but as far as war plans go, they only had three: a Polish one from 1951 which was defensive (a NATO landing on the Baltic Coast), a Hungarian one from 1964 (nuclear only-a NATO first strike and the Pact response), and a Czech one from 1963 (nuclear first strike by Pact, followed by major ground attack into Western Europe-they expected to be in Lyon, France, by D+8!) Not much else is publicly availiable.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 06-11-2004, 03:46 AM Thanks Matt.
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-11-2004, 06:38 AM D+8 into France... hmmm.... Maybe if they had the man power to secure their line of communication. Then again that was what held up the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1981 to bring the Solidarity movement to an end. They had trouble calling up their 'reserves'.
Then again with the Soviet and Warsaw Pact it was to push forward at all cost and not worry about clean up. There would be others to do that job. But it would put a drain on replacement at the 'Front'. Yet, it explains why they would want to know where every gas station, and fuel depot was... Then all is left is raid the local stores for food. Kinda gives Napolean living of the land new meaning...lol
Abbott
********************
graebarde 06-11-2004, 10:15 AM There was a 'joke' in the 3AD at Giessen in the late 70s after a question was posed to the CINC EUCOM to the effect 'could WP be on the Rhine in three days?'
The 'joke' went "only if they can get gas in Frankfurt" Actually it wasn't a joke, as even then we knew that the WP would need fuel from the numerous filling stations in the West. I think the HG of Germany was tasked to 'secure or destroy' them, but never knew for a fact. I do know there were alot of plans to make life for the WP rear hell though.
Those same boys from a tanker outfit in Giessen said they figured to fight their first major battle just getting out of the damn motor pool. The streets would be clogged with refugees. MANY of the locals had bug out bags and plans to move IF/WHEN the balloon went up, and kept a very close eye on what the American forces were doing in ways of preperations for war.
********************
Matt Wiser 06-11-2004, 11:52 PM Unfortunately, all the Pact conventional stuff (Variant B, as they called it), and NATO defense plans, are still classified. Some other stuff had the Pact in East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary at Alert +45: Even in Peacetime they were in a posture to go within 45 minutes of getting the go-signal from Moscow. NATO's worst nightmare was a bolt-from-the blue, or the Pact using an exercise as cover for an attack-Hackett's books use this scenario. There were two major warning indicators for NATO: The Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe (E.Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia) take in their new draftees, but the guys supposed to be discharged are kept in uniform, and even the units in Eastern Europe sent detachments back home to help with the harvest-if these two happen, along with other events (more Soviet ships and subs away from home ports, putting the missile subs into the bastions, Soviet Rail system forming trains in the Western Military Districts to ship troops and equipment west), then it's time for Europe to look to its guns. But almost everyone believed that if a conventional war started in Europe, it would have its origins somewhere else-the Middle East was a favorite-GDW's Third World War board games had Khomeni's assassination splintering Iran into pro-Western and anti-Western factions, the US and Soviets send in troops to support their respective factions-shooting incidents start, and you have WW III. NATO expected during the Cuban Missile Crisis that the Soviets would attack Berlin (at least) if the U.S. invaded Cuba, as another possiblity.
Remember, given Soviet command structures, and the KGB watching Generals, any slip-ups and capable Generals and Colonels are going to get shot (or worse, sent to penal units). Some Soviet Generals have said that if they had to attack a prepared NATO defense, or even a partially prepared one, they still thought at least two weeks to the Rhine under a best case situation, and four weeks at most. Add to that probably getting bogged down in Norway, the Balkans, and in Iran, and you have the Hackett scenario of the Soviet Union breaking apart under the stress of a multifront war, often quite violently.
********************
Jason Weiser 06-12-2004, 08:43 AM Plans being plans, I have to say that to be honest, I am not sure the Soviets could have pulled off what they claimed in their planning, for one thing, the Soviet Army as an instrument was an imperfect one, it's an open question how hard they would have fougnt in Western Europe, not to mention the Easterm Europeans, I think it would have just been a matter of inflict enough casualties and watch the defections.
Is that to belittle the Soviet threat? No, not at all, they were a threat to be sure, but Ivan sure as hell wasn't ten feet tall. I think that between the terrain in CENTAG and the urbanization in the rest of Germany, the Soviets would have had a real miserable time of it. I think they probably would have gotten to the Wesser in the North, as well as taken Hamburg and Hannover, but probably petered out just in time for III Corps to get there. This is of course, assuming that the Soviers don't manage to hit the POMCUS sites with desant troops. (That's an iffy thing to pull off, even sucessful it will make Arnhem look like a tea party, and personally, a Spetsnaz raid will not do the job the Soviets would like).
In short, the Soviets had a force that was a "roll of the dice" force, why? Because if the Soviets hadn't crushed NATO by the time the Cat II and III forces got there, then they were not going to do so. Worse, the economy probably would have collapsed back home, not to mention the shaky loyalty of the Soviet "allies".
This is all assuming NATO doesn't just pop a few nukes of their own. I think that would have been very likely.
********************
Matt Wiser 06-12-2004, 06:10 PM III Corps was tagged for REFORGER-once it's clear that something is happening with Pact forces getting ready to move West, and they board the CRAF 747s and DC-10s and fly to get their equipment. They probably would have been NORTHAG's main reserve, if SACEUR didn't want them in the same role for AFCENT. Didn't V and VII Corps also have REFORGER-tagged units in CONUS? By the time Ivan decides that he's definitely going to attack, most of those POMCUS sites are empty. And Spetsnatz is going to have bigger fish to go after than the POMCUS sites-they want the Pershings and GLCMS first of all (that was their main mission-kill the Theater nukes, and go after VIPs). One Spetsnatz team in Red Storm Rising hijacked a couple of freighters and scuttled them in Hamburg Harbor-hitting ports and disrupting air-base operations would also be a priority. Still, Ivan's Generals would have pitched the best-case scenarios to the Politburo, even if they know that even if they do get to the Rhine, they may not be there for very long. Jason's comment about unit defections and insurrections in Pact countries is something else to keep in mind, especially if the non-Soviet Pact casualty rates go sky-high. (Poles, Czechs, and Hungarians especially; not so sure about the East Germans, they were very loyal, and might have stuck it out)
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-13-2004, 09:00 AM Wow...
You know IMHO the only way the Soviet would have used Nukes first and then go in is if they would have felt that NATO was going to strike first. The Conventional plan or option 2 would have been how they would like to start. Now when you consider the Soviets Groups of Forces were at or near 110% strength and add Pact to them and then considered they have 2nd and 3rd rate equipment to begin with. Their mission was to jump, hit fast and drive in as deep as possible while destroying what oppisition was in front of them. These units are the initial Cannon Flodder.
Then you add in the Airborne units which in most cases the considered the elite and been programmed all their life. These units will probably be dropped deep into Germany after hostilities start just to tie up and the Soviet wishfully hope chew up units coming to the front.
The 2nd wave would be the make or break it wave made up of units that have the best equipment and 100% strength. These units would drive past 1st wave as these unit would be algumented in place to reinforce the those units making the 3rd wave. The 2nd Wave goals would be the Rhine. 3rd Wave goal would be the Atlantic. Now Cat II and III units would be left to deal with mop up operations.
Now here are the four wild cards in this all. 1st off the French. France is not a full fledge member of NATO. The only reason they have anything to deal with the organization is for their own protection from the Pact and they would have been to willing for Germans and American to dies to maul the Soviets racing to conquer them. I see the French holding their units west of the Rhine and turning areas east of the Rhine one big parking lot of Central and Eastern Europe with there Nukes. Which in turn would take out what remaining units of the NATO too.
2nd wild card is the UK. They know if the Soviet makes the Channel and depending on the capabilities of the Soviets and her allies to cross the Channel. It may be something they don't want to find the answer out too quickly.
3rd the US. How far along would the US allow the Soviets to push them back before the US would feel the heat from the French for not doing enough in stopping the Soviet while the entire time they knowing that the French will not commit their troops East of the Rhine and if they don't they may be caught in the French exchange.
4th the Germans themselves and the rest of the alliance. They may not want to be under a Soviet Regime, but if France or the US start to use Nuke on German soil before they believe the situation got hopeless. Well we remember what the Italians did in WWII.
Just MHO and your particular outlook at the entire thing.
Abbott
********************
thefusilier 06-13-2004, 02:29 PM As far as the French wildcard is concerned, I tend to believe more along the lines of (I thought it was) Hackett's book where the French Army in Germany fights along side of NATO but under their own high command. I don't see the French doing nothing until the Reds are at the Rhine and then nuking them. That would only escalate the war in which the French can't win a nuke war against the USSR. They may not be the best of "allies" but it would be in there best interests to become involved depending on how things were going at the front.
thefusilier
********************
Matt Wiser 06-13-2004, 04:44 PM Hackett actually had the French II Corps in Germany chopped to SACEUR about 24 hours before the balloon went up in Germany; and I French Corps shows up on War Day-and he forms a SOUTHAG under French Command (II German Corps, I and II French Corps). The French AF flew its ground-attack missions in support of SOUTHAG, but their Air Defense Mirages went after any Soviet AF aircraft wherever directed by AWACS. It took some fast talking by SACEUR to get the French to divert an armored division meant for SOUTHAG to go to Maastricht in Holland as XI US Corps is forming up and the Krefeld Salient is getting B-52'd. (an ARC LIGHT replay over the Central Front-they wrecked 20th Guards Army as they were getting ready to push south along the West side of the Rhine. After the B-52s, XI US Corps, the French, and some Brits and Dutch came in and cleaned up the survivors: 39 B-52s flew the mission, 21 made it back). After that, the French lifted restrictions on their air force and they flew anywhere they were needed. Interesting that in both Hackett books the Pact did not attack West Berlin-they were expecting the garrison to surrender once the Pact reached the stop line. I do wonder what the CO of II German Corps must have felt, taking orders from the French, even though he's glad they're there.
********************
graebarde 06-13-2004, 07:19 PM Didn't V and VII Corps also have REFORGER-tagged units in CONUS?
In this time frame there were FIVE divisions in REFORGER status IIRC.
1 ID (M) (one brigade forward near Stuttgart) to VII Corps came out of Ft Riley KS to POMCUS near Kaiserslautern.
4 ID (M) (one brigade forward near Wiesbaden am Main) to V Corps came out of Ft Carson CO to POMCUS near Wiesbaden.
2 AD (one brigade forward near Padeborne in the north) to III Corps came out of Ft Hood TX to POMCUS near Paderborne.
1 CD (armored) to III Corps came out of Ft Hood TX to a POMCUS in Holland (IIRC)?
5 ID (M) to III Corps came out of Ft Hood TX to POMCUS in Belgium (IIRC)?
There was also a POMCUS near Mannheim. IN addition to the divisions 3 ACR was REFORGER to III Corps, as well as some III Corps Artillery and Engineer assets.
The order the units are listed is about the order they would come to Germany as well I think. 1 ID (M) was the 'best practiced in REFORGERS, They were the ONLY division that went on the annual REFORGER exercise for many years. It was just the late 70's when other divisions started to 'participate'. It was well into the 80's when the REFOREGER was held in northern Germany.
I recall the year 101st Airborne (AASLT) participated, it was about 1977. What a fiasco that was. Too them a long time ot get organized, and due to lack of organic transport cost several O-6 and a one-star thier careers when they 'commandeered' MY convoy of trucks for their use.. took me THREE days to find them, then shit rolled UP hill and DOWN again.
It was the same year I think the 1-75th Inf (RANGERS) came to the games.. NOW they were something else, flew the whole way from CONUS and made a mass tac jump on target. IF it were for real I don;t know how many would have survived the massive WP ADA umbrella, but hey they put on a good show.
Grae
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-15-2004, 08:12 AM Yeah, it always need those great shows.
Reminds me when a Soviet delegation from the Soviet military came to the US in 1989. They happen to visit Fort Bragg and our Battalion really Brigade to take part in a peep show.... Millions of Dollars of hardware sitting off the Normady dropzone to one of the impact areas...lol
Well about 7 PM the night before someone somewhere on base grew a brain and sudden six of use from my company(2 from a platoon) were sent out for overnight guard duty of the hardward out there... Seems no one had plan on this before hand. So six of us get taken out to make sure no comes to take a peek or mess with anything otherwise...(6 grunts not MPs and unarmed too so we could do the English Bobby of halt and what your business...lol) Well anyway the next morning when we thought we going back to Comany Area and have a day off. Oh no you can't leave the roads are blocked and no one knows you are here so you have to stay until the Ruskie leave in the back of the HMMWV...lol
Seemed like 10 hours later(but only 4) we load up and laugh about... Great thing this Friday otherwise I don't think we would have had the next 24 hours off that was promise when we snatch for the very important security detail...lol Or was it Saturday either way it great firework show to impress the shit out of them... Well anyway I could tell they were just about as impress as they are when they put on their own peep shows... They knew the deal...lol
Abbott
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-15-2004, 08:20 AM Yeah, it always need those great shows.
Reminds me when a Soviet delegation from the Soviet military came to the US in 1989. They happen to visit Fort Bragg and our Battalion really Brigade to take part in a peep show.... Millions of Dollars of hardware sitting off the Normady dropzone to one of the impact areas...lol
Well about 7 PM the night before someone somewhere on base grew a brain and sudden six of use from my company(2 from a platoon) were sent out for overnight guard duty of the hardward out there... Seems no one had plan on this before hand. So six of us get taken out to make sure no comes to take a peek or mess with anything otherwise...(6 grunts not MPs and unarmed too so we could do the English Bobby of halt and what your business...lol) Well anyway the next morning when we thought we going back to Comany Area and have a day off. Oh no you can't leave the roads are blocked and no one knows you are here so you have to stay until the Ruskie leave in the back of the HMMWV...lol
Seemed like 10 hours later(but only 4) we load up and laugh about... Great thing this Friday otherwise I don't think we would have had the next 24 hours off that was promise when we snatch for the very important security detail...lol Or was it Saturday either way it great firework show to impress the shit out of them... Well anyway I could tell they were just about as impress as they are when they put on their own peep shows... They knew the deal...lol
Abbott
********************
chico20854 03-14-2006, 12:34 PM I know this is an old, almost forgotten and dead thread, but I found an interesting website on Berlin:
http://www.western-allies-berlin.com/
It's still under construction but does have a detailed US and British orbat.
********************
shrike6 03-14-2006, 04:49 PM Hadn't seen that website, good catch Chico.
********************
graebardeII 03-15-2006, 01:17 AM One factiod: there was a Soviet GRU officer detailed to find every civilian gas station and car wash in West Germany, Holland, and Belgium. The gas stations-you can use captured fuel, and car washes can be used for NBC decontamination. They found tons of all this stuff in 1989-90.
cira 1975, Frankfurt aM FTG. Home of US V Corps and 3AD. I was stationed at Oberussel (just northwest of Frankfurt) at the time. Haig was CINCEUCOM at the time. He was asked if the Russians could be on the Rhine in two weeks, and bluntly said NO WAY.
The response the 3AD tankers in Giessen had (just up the road from us and Saturday night drinkers in our little club on Camp King) was "Only if they can get gas in Frankfurt." (these same guys planned to fight thier first major battle in the tank park if the balloon went up from a cold start)
That plan of action was NOT a well kept secret within the ranks. KGB/GRU agents also posed as truck drivers from Eastern European countries to recon the roads etc of West Germany.
In addition there were spies in the open in the form of SMLM?? We called them 'smellums'. They were Soviet Liaison Missions and drive around in marked cars, observing exercises. They had some restricted areas, but not many IIRC. We had the same in East Germany.
********************
Abbott Shaull 03-15-2006, 01:51 AM Yes, I remember some of the books I had read way back making similiar references to Officers on boths sides taking jobs as truck drivers so they could make delievers across the 'border' on similiar recon missions. It was always a strange game of chicken that at times was very real and serious played by both sides.
There was the 'Trust, but verify' mentality along with the mysterious jets that would just drop from the sky. It is interesting that back in the 70s and 80s when US or other NATO fighters would crash and it was business as normal. Now without the cold war when they crash, the Air Farce, Marines, or the Navy will halt all flying and take a saftey time out. Which is amazing that those crashes in the 70s and 80s were always catagorically called training accidents and most are today with the exceptions of those in active war zones. Now how much would you like to place down that most of those birds lost over Europe weren't really technical failure unless it involves shrapnel causing the failures...
There were plans to blow up all type of infastructure. Ironically once the Soviets were stopped and NATO started to puch back (if you go with the Soviets and Pact started the war) is that NATO would have fix almost as much damage that was self inflicted as well as that done by the Soviets. Like I have stated both sides had their versions of the suitcase nuke near the border so that damage could be done to the infastructure that would slow the enemy down. At least in West Germany it was one of those worse kept secrets amongst allies that both sides knows that everyone else knows, but they don't talk about for they are wishing they never have to be used. Yet, don't let the West Germans find them for it will embarrass not only Bonn, but Washington and the current US Army Europe Command too.
What is interesting there were probably more cache of equipment placed their by both sides in Germany, Czech, and Poland that will be found years from now that has long since forgotten. Well not so much forgotten but the paper trail to their existance was lost somehow in the shuffle of paperwork and those who knew where they were are long past gone.
I remember that year the 101st went over. I remember reading news clippings...lol Of course the news here seemed to make it sound like it all went off without hitch...lol I guess that explains why the 82nd was never really invited to play after that.
Abbott
********************
Abbott Shaull 03-15-2006, 01:54 AM Soviet Liasion Mission...lol The same things goes for any military or naval attachee who is worth their grain of salt. Just a spy under a cover that you know that is what you are doing, but you have to allow under the rules...lol
********************
Brit 04-06-2006, 02:21 AM British vehicles in Berlin also had some rather unique camoflage. This is it in model form: http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_berlin.htm
********************
Targan 04-06-2006, 02:25 AM Thanks Brit, I had never seen that cammo pattern before, that is really fascinating. Do you think those colours and patterns would be effective? I think they probably would. I also found interesting the comment in that website about each vehicle having an identical cammo scheme in an effort to prevent the enemy from counting vehicles. Very interesting indeed.
********************
thefusilier 04-06-2006, 03:13 AM Anyone know anything about the 1st vehicle... the one that looks like an apc (similar maybe to FV-432) with the Fox turret on it?
********************
Brit 04-06-2006, 06:22 AM FV432 / Fox turret.
The good news! Paul Mulcahy has stats and info for it on his site: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_apcs/british_tracked_apcs.htm
The Christopher F. Foss book I mentioned / quoted on another string said that the British Army intended to issue seventeen of them to each Infantry Mechanized Battalion. Seems this didn't happen.
Wikpedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV432 say thirteen were converted.
There's more info and another pic of a real vehicle here: http://www.fv432.com/fv43xfamily.htm
I find this quote on that site interesting... "Of course the biggest horror with FV432 was the discovery during the design work for a particular IK [Installation Kits]in the mid-'80s that British engineering had been somewhat 'indifferent' in the 1960s, internal dimensions could vary by a few inches! This may have affected how the ex 438 were used - some sorting to find vehicles that weren't too different in size!"
Anybody know if other vehicles had the same problem?
More pics of vehicles in this camo at http://www.accurate-armour.com/articles1.cfm?id=12&navlevel=2 and a painting guide for the Chieftain at http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/ArmourColours/Other/Chieftain-Berlin.jpg
As for would it have worked? There's a pic of a Chieftain in situ here http://www.emlra.org/articles/berlin_brigade.htm It does seem to merge into the background. The article states it almost disappears at 100 yards...
********************
thefusilier 04-06-2006, 06:36 AM Thanks.
********************
pmulcahy 04-06-2006, 08:14 AM When I was in ROTC, one of the instructors was an SGM who had been SF for most of his career. He was once assigned to SFDB in the late 70s, and he told us that while about a platoon of SFDB would stay in West Berlin if the balloon went up, the rest of SFDB was to leave Berlin and go cause trouble out in the area around Berlin and in East Berlin. He said they had huge stockpiles of weapons and equipment for their own use, including (as he put it) "unusual stuff," but he of course refused to elaborate on what sort of weapons, equipment, and "unusual stuff" they had.
********************
Brit 04-06-2006, 09:02 AM Thanks.
That's OK. When, a while back, I saw the FV432 / Fox vehicle on Paul's site I did a bit of Googling.
Forgot to include this on the earlier post. FV432 plus a Scorpion turret. I guess it just had to be tried! http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/7413/fv432turr.html
********************
********************
pmulcahy 05-29-2004, 06:38 AM The French also had about a brigade in West Berlin. The West Germans, though they weren't allowed to station any Bundeswehr troops in West Berlin, did have some pretty heavily armed police. Some of the police units had APCs, ATGM carriers, rocket launchers, ground-mount ATGMs, etc. -- they made a SWAT team look like a Boy Scout troop.
********************
Ed the Coastie 05-29-2004, 09:54 AM *chuckling* I don't know...I've known some pretty well-armed Boy Scout troops
********************
antimedic 05-29-2004, 02:50 PM The things they can do with a Swiss Army knife.
********************
Jason Weiser 05-29-2004, 06:38 PM Some pretty good info here!
Berlin Bde Page (with some useful links!) (http://usarmygermany.com/Units/Berlin%20Brigade/USAREUR_Berlin%20Brigade.htm)
********************
shrike6 05-29-2004, 08:21 PM You know, this makes me wonder what happened to the French Berlin Brigade.
********************
James1978 05-29-2004, 10:15 PM Originally posted by pmulcahy
The West Germans, though they weren't allowed to station any Bundeswehr troops in West Berlin, did have some pretty heavily armed police. Some of the police units had APCs, ATGM carriers, rocket launchers, ground-mount ATGMs, etc. -- they made a SWAT team look like a Boy Scout troop. Years ago I saw a picture of a Leopard 1 tank painted up like a West Berlin police car and it had "Polize" on it in big letters. One of the oddest things I ever saw.
********************
Antenna 05-30-2004, 08:15 PM I posted couple of months ago a OOB for the US Berlin Brigade
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/m2k/oob/usa/berlin.htm
//Antenna
********************
evilmike 05-31-2004, 06:36 PM The Berlin cops were the original 'Tank Police'..:)
********************
shrike6 06-01-2004, 01:20 PM I've posted a Berlin Brigade Orbat as well.
http://forums.rpghost.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=188539#post188539
aa. Berlin Brigade - West Berlin, FRG
1) 5 -502nd Infantry Battalion (Mech)
2) 6 -502nd Infantry Battalion (Mech)
3) 6- 40th Armor Battalion
a) A Co/ 6- 40th Armor Battalion
b) B Co/ 6- 40th Armor Battalion
c) C Btry/ 320th Field Artillery Battalion
d) 42nd Engineer Company
4) Combat Support Battalion
a) 287th MP Company
b) 766th Military Intelligence Company
c) Service Company
d) Signal Support Company
********************
Matt Wiser 06-02-2004, 02:32 AM I'd bet that once the French declared their neutrality, the French Brigade stayed in Barracks, with the order not to fight unless attacked.
********************
shrike6 06-02-2004, 05:38 AM Matt,
I wonder what happened to the the French Brigade after that.
********************
Andy-Shot 06-02-2004, 12:01 PM They would have been a long way from home, in an increasingly hostile area, and no one was coming to help them. They would either have to hoof it back to france, fight on the sides of the allies because of surviveability, or stay and get nuked.
My guess would be that they pulled back and out when NATO crossed the border and they withdrew from the pact.
********************
shrike6 06-02-2004, 06:53 PM LES FORCES FRANCAISES a BERLIN.
46eme REGIMENT d'INFANTERIE
11eme REGIMENT de CHASSEURS
110eme COMPAGNIE du GENIE
MISSION MILITAIRE FRANCAISE de LIAISON (MMFL)
GROUPEMENT des SERVICES
********************
shrike6 06-02-2004, 08:32 PM There's also a detachment of French Gendarmeries as well as the Armee de l'Air detachment at BASE AERIENNE 165 (Tegel Airport)
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-03-2004, 09:57 AM Yes, but if they fight just to survive would the be welcome back home after they had disengaged... Or would they continue to fight with the Allies in the Berlin Division. :P
Gee up until this link never really gave it much thought. Largely due to the fact that before I joined the Army, I didn't even think we had troops still in there. Next about the same time the Berlin came down so there was no reason for the subject to come to mind and no else I have played with really brought it up either. So you have US Mech Brigade, UK Brigade, a French Brigade, and a Para-military Brigade made up over gunned police officers. Next would they stick together to become an adhoc Division. Just like the British are known to piece together or split up and be used indiviual Brigades or used for replacements. I like the concept of adhoc Allied Divisions though. Made Airmobile with the British 16th Airmobile, 173rd Airborne and the 6th Polish Air Assault...
********************
Andy-Shot 06-05-2004, 04:35 AM Why would the French fight though?
NATO was pushing through Germany at the time, and France withdrew from NATO. The French would have no reason to stay in Berlin to be wrapped up in the later fighting. On top of that, they would be so far from French Supply lines that even if France wanted them to fight, they couldn't have supported them with the Allies relations strained.
If I was France I would have pulled them back to help support the borders against NATO reprisals or in the event the Axis pushed the NATO push back. Fighting in Berlin would be a disadvantage to them. They probably went to Beligum or somewhere close by.
********************
shrike6 06-05-2004, 01:48 PM The only reason why I could see the French staying in Berlin is because of a time. Is there enough time for the French Forces in Berlin to pull out? If there isn't what then would they be better off staying in place or trying to evacuate West Berlin? If they do evacuate do they go by land or by air?
********************
Andy-Shot 06-06-2004, 09:20 PM at that point in time they could evac by air, as the war really hadnt started yet.
Again, I can see no reason for them to stay in Berlin once they withdrew from NATO and the war hadn't gotten there yet
********************
shrike6 06-06-2004, 09:51 PM Your going to have to let me if I'm wrong here because my books are packed away because I'm moving but if I remember correctly France pulled out of NATO after US and the UK crossed the inter- German border. Before that happened West Germany (later Germany) and the Soviet Forces in East Germany were going at it already. Maybe I'm wrong here but I really don't see an air evac as being highly successful in an enviroment where multiple Air Forces are duking it out. IMO I really don't see an air evac being possible until after NATO secures Germany.
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-07-2004, 07:41 AM I think if you go by V1. The French, US, and UK Brigades were caught in fight in Berlin between the Germans and the Soviets. Here I would suppect to the East German Border Guards to side with the Soviets. One of the few places with the East Germans didn't really accept their West German brothers as liberators.
Now as the before the mention West German 'Rambo' Police. Well I think the French, US, and UK would have to band together to survive. This would probably be the only French unit to fire upon Pact units during the War until the French entered Iraq in late 1999. Once other NATO or German units linked up with surrounded Berlin units then these units would have been withdrawn. For the French it would be home probably overland. For the US and UK probably used to fill in other units that weren't up to snuff at the time.
Just MHO.
Abbott
********************
graebarde 06-08-2004, 09:50 AM My take is the froggies sent a message to the Wp saying we are staying in barracks, please do not hurt us, and tehn they do what they do best, tucked tail and headed for home while the US/US covered their sorry asses as they withdrew.
********************
pmulcahy 06-08-2004, 10:17 AM Originally posted by graebarde
My take is the froggies sent a message to the Wp saying we are staying in barracks, please do not hurt us, and tehn they do what they do best, tucked tail and headed for home while the US/US covered their sorry asses as they withdrew.
And then went on to plague civilians in the Dead Zone, since they were essentially an unblooded unit...
Something is missing in this whole discussion: the Special Forces Detachment Berlin. I had a SGM once who was a part of that unit back in the 1970s; he told me their mission was essentially to leave Berlin immediately if hostilities started and go cause trouble for the WP in East Germany. He also told me that defending Berlin was basically considered a lost cause if a war started.
********************
graebarde 06-08-2004, 02:51 PM Not just the SF det Berlin, but the 10th SF battalion at Bad Tolz. When the balloon goes up, those boys will definately be in the east raising hell, forming resistance units, etc.
I had 'aquaintences' that were with the 10th, and they did some very 'interesting' training to say the least. That was back in the real COLD war era. 'I can tell ya but then I have to Kill ya.'
********************
Andy-Shot 06-08-2004, 04:06 PM How could you defend Berlin? It is already surrounded, and the Warsaw Pact would be hitting it with everything they had in the first part of the war to eliminate any rear guard attacks.
Its like trying to hold the Korea line in N. Korea invades...
********************
Matt Wiser 06-09-2004, 12:28 AM Well, it would have been a lost cause, but three NATO Brigades, plus those heavily armed West Berlin Cops would have tied down the Soviet Berlin Brigade, plus three Soviet MR Divisions (6th Guards, 14th Guards, and 19th Guards) of 20th Guards Army. How long they would have held out under an Army-size attack is something we never had to find out, fortunately for all concerned.
Once W. Berlin was basically dealt with, 20th Guards Army was to pull out and head west, leaving the mop-up to the Soviet Berlin Brigade and the East Germans. All of this came out when the Wall came down and the West had access to the old WARPAC war plans: they were of two variants-a variant with a nuclear opening, followed by a blitz to the Channel, and a conventional variant with nukes to be used only if NATO did so first. Only the nuke-only variant has been published. The plans were very detailed, with new road signs for West Germany, Denmark, Holland, and Belgium, occupation currency, streets in cities to be renamed, medals for the troops already minted, and a Stasi list of people to be arrested and sent off for "re-education" or to be liquidated. The Stasi list has not survived. Believe it or not, but among those on the list were members of the Baader-Meinhof Gang and other leftist groups-they were so disrespectful of any authority that they would have caused trouble to the Pact. Also, POW handling procedures were in place, with Americans, British, and French to be held by the Soviets, along with selected West Germans, the rest by the East Germans. Even the propaganda leaflets were already printed. One factiod: there was a Soviet GRU officer detailed to find every civilian gas station and car wash in West Germany, Holland, and Belgium. The gas stations-you can use captured fuel, and car washes can be used for NBC decontamination. They found tons of all this stuff in 1989-90.
********************
thefusilier 06-09-2004, 10:47 AM Hey,
It may have been a lost cause in some situations but in Twilight 2000 NATO units were driving East towards Berlin. No more lost cause if the beseiged city would be relieved. Besides, a city of that size with over a divisions worth of troops and stockpiles of untouched supplies could hold out for a very very long time. Armour dosn't mean much in urban enviroment and thats what the Soviets had for their greatest advantage. Also by the time the city became under attack the NATO units would have had time to fortify their positions, blockade streets, etc.
thefusilier
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-09-2004, 08:59 PM Yeah, well once the balloon went up both side Special Operation units would be sent forth to cause as much damage is humanly possible...lol
Abbott
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-09-2004, 09:05 PM Yes, but would the Soviets and Pact units move into West Berlin until the UK and US units joined the Germans. I think the Soviets would hold off as much as possible. Not wanting to expand the War anymore. Then again that IMHO
Abbott
********************
Matt Wiser 06-10-2004, 12:08 AM Kind of hard under the usual WW III scenarios where the first clash is not just in Berlin, but all over the Inner German Border. The Fulda and Hof Gaps, would have been very exciting (not to mention dangerous) places, as well as the North German Plain. There was very little mention in NATO from what's publicly available of pushing to West Berlin. Only a Blockade situation might have pushed NATO to even consider offensive action to lift the Blockade-you would have had an attempt at a Berlin Airlift II first. Still, even knowing that as you're going down you are tying up a Soviet Army-size formation would have been cold comfort to those in West Berlin, with no reinforcement and no resupply. It would have been WW III's Bataan. The longer they hold out means 20th Guards Army isn't going to reinforce the drive into West Germany. And 20th Guards trained mainly for a West Berlin operation in their exercises. (again, knowledge from the old WARPAC stuff found in East Germany) And given Soviet military justice, if 20th Guards' CO fails to take West Berlin on schedule.... if he's lucky, he gets shot. If he's not, it's either a GULAG or a Penal Battalion. If he gets to choose, he'd better take the Penal Battalion-at least he dies with his boots on.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 06-10-2004, 05:36 AM Are there any archives of the old WARPAC plans on the net anywhere? Its something that I would be very interested in personally and could make a great basisi for a game.
********************
Matt Wiser 06-10-2004, 11:55 PM Try a Google or Yahoo Search for The National Security Archive. They have stuff from both sides, but as far as war plans go, they only had three: a Polish one from 1951 which was defensive (a NATO landing on the Baltic Coast), a Hungarian one from 1964 (nuclear only-a NATO first strike and the Pact response), and a Czech one from 1963 (nuclear first strike by Pact, followed by major ground attack into Western Europe-they expected to be in Lyon, France, by D+8!) Not much else is publicly availiable.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 06-11-2004, 03:46 AM Thanks Matt.
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-11-2004, 06:38 AM D+8 into France... hmmm.... Maybe if they had the man power to secure their line of communication. Then again that was what held up the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1981 to bring the Solidarity movement to an end. They had trouble calling up their 'reserves'.
Then again with the Soviet and Warsaw Pact it was to push forward at all cost and not worry about clean up. There would be others to do that job. But it would put a drain on replacement at the 'Front'. Yet, it explains why they would want to know where every gas station, and fuel depot was... Then all is left is raid the local stores for food. Kinda gives Napolean living of the land new meaning...lol
Abbott
********************
graebarde 06-11-2004, 10:15 AM There was a 'joke' in the 3AD at Giessen in the late 70s after a question was posed to the CINC EUCOM to the effect 'could WP be on the Rhine in three days?'
The 'joke' went "only if they can get gas in Frankfurt" Actually it wasn't a joke, as even then we knew that the WP would need fuel from the numerous filling stations in the West. I think the HG of Germany was tasked to 'secure or destroy' them, but never knew for a fact. I do know there were alot of plans to make life for the WP rear hell though.
Those same boys from a tanker outfit in Giessen said they figured to fight their first major battle just getting out of the damn motor pool. The streets would be clogged with refugees. MANY of the locals had bug out bags and plans to move IF/WHEN the balloon went up, and kept a very close eye on what the American forces were doing in ways of preperations for war.
********************
Matt Wiser 06-11-2004, 11:52 PM Unfortunately, all the Pact conventional stuff (Variant B, as they called it), and NATO defense plans, are still classified. Some other stuff had the Pact in East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary at Alert +45: Even in Peacetime they were in a posture to go within 45 minutes of getting the go-signal from Moscow. NATO's worst nightmare was a bolt-from-the blue, or the Pact using an exercise as cover for an attack-Hackett's books use this scenario. There were two major warning indicators for NATO: The Soviet Forces in Eastern Europe (E.Germany, Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia) take in their new draftees, but the guys supposed to be discharged are kept in uniform, and even the units in Eastern Europe sent detachments back home to help with the harvest-if these two happen, along with other events (more Soviet ships and subs away from home ports, putting the missile subs into the bastions, Soviet Rail system forming trains in the Western Military Districts to ship troops and equipment west), then it's time for Europe to look to its guns. But almost everyone believed that if a conventional war started in Europe, it would have its origins somewhere else-the Middle East was a favorite-GDW's Third World War board games had Khomeni's assassination splintering Iran into pro-Western and anti-Western factions, the US and Soviets send in troops to support their respective factions-shooting incidents start, and you have WW III. NATO expected during the Cuban Missile Crisis that the Soviets would attack Berlin (at least) if the U.S. invaded Cuba, as another possiblity.
Remember, given Soviet command structures, and the KGB watching Generals, any slip-ups and capable Generals and Colonels are going to get shot (or worse, sent to penal units). Some Soviet Generals have said that if they had to attack a prepared NATO defense, or even a partially prepared one, they still thought at least two weeks to the Rhine under a best case situation, and four weeks at most. Add to that probably getting bogged down in Norway, the Balkans, and in Iran, and you have the Hackett scenario of the Soviet Union breaking apart under the stress of a multifront war, often quite violently.
********************
Jason Weiser 06-12-2004, 08:43 AM Plans being plans, I have to say that to be honest, I am not sure the Soviets could have pulled off what they claimed in their planning, for one thing, the Soviet Army as an instrument was an imperfect one, it's an open question how hard they would have fougnt in Western Europe, not to mention the Easterm Europeans, I think it would have just been a matter of inflict enough casualties and watch the defections.
Is that to belittle the Soviet threat? No, not at all, they were a threat to be sure, but Ivan sure as hell wasn't ten feet tall. I think that between the terrain in CENTAG and the urbanization in the rest of Germany, the Soviets would have had a real miserable time of it. I think they probably would have gotten to the Wesser in the North, as well as taken Hamburg and Hannover, but probably petered out just in time for III Corps to get there. This is of course, assuming that the Soviers don't manage to hit the POMCUS sites with desant troops. (That's an iffy thing to pull off, even sucessful it will make Arnhem look like a tea party, and personally, a Spetsnaz raid will not do the job the Soviets would like).
In short, the Soviets had a force that was a "roll of the dice" force, why? Because if the Soviets hadn't crushed NATO by the time the Cat II and III forces got there, then they were not going to do so. Worse, the economy probably would have collapsed back home, not to mention the shaky loyalty of the Soviet "allies".
This is all assuming NATO doesn't just pop a few nukes of their own. I think that would have been very likely.
********************
Matt Wiser 06-12-2004, 06:10 PM III Corps was tagged for REFORGER-once it's clear that something is happening with Pact forces getting ready to move West, and they board the CRAF 747s and DC-10s and fly to get their equipment. They probably would have been NORTHAG's main reserve, if SACEUR didn't want them in the same role for AFCENT. Didn't V and VII Corps also have REFORGER-tagged units in CONUS? By the time Ivan decides that he's definitely going to attack, most of those POMCUS sites are empty. And Spetsnatz is going to have bigger fish to go after than the POMCUS sites-they want the Pershings and GLCMS first of all (that was their main mission-kill the Theater nukes, and go after VIPs). One Spetsnatz team in Red Storm Rising hijacked a couple of freighters and scuttled them in Hamburg Harbor-hitting ports and disrupting air-base operations would also be a priority. Still, Ivan's Generals would have pitched the best-case scenarios to the Politburo, even if they know that even if they do get to the Rhine, they may not be there for very long. Jason's comment about unit defections and insurrections in Pact countries is something else to keep in mind, especially if the non-Soviet Pact casualty rates go sky-high. (Poles, Czechs, and Hungarians especially; not so sure about the East Germans, they were very loyal, and might have stuck it out)
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-13-2004, 09:00 AM Wow...
You know IMHO the only way the Soviet would have used Nukes first and then go in is if they would have felt that NATO was going to strike first. The Conventional plan or option 2 would have been how they would like to start. Now when you consider the Soviets Groups of Forces were at or near 110% strength and add Pact to them and then considered they have 2nd and 3rd rate equipment to begin with. Their mission was to jump, hit fast and drive in as deep as possible while destroying what oppisition was in front of them. These units are the initial Cannon Flodder.
Then you add in the Airborne units which in most cases the considered the elite and been programmed all their life. These units will probably be dropped deep into Germany after hostilities start just to tie up and the Soviet wishfully hope chew up units coming to the front.
The 2nd wave would be the make or break it wave made up of units that have the best equipment and 100% strength. These units would drive past 1st wave as these unit would be algumented in place to reinforce the those units making the 3rd wave. The 2nd Wave goals would be the Rhine. 3rd Wave goal would be the Atlantic. Now Cat II and III units would be left to deal with mop up operations.
Now here are the four wild cards in this all. 1st off the French. France is not a full fledge member of NATO. The only reason they have anything to deal with the organization is for their own protection from the Pact and they would have been to willing for Germans and American to dies to maul the Soviets racing to conquer them. I see the French holding their units west of the Rhine and turning areas east of the Rhine one big parking lot of Central and Eastern Europe with there Nukes. Which in turn would take out what remaining units of the NATO too.
2nd wild card is the UK. They know if the Soviet makes the Channel and depending on the capabilities of the Soviets and her allies to cross the Channel. It may be something they don't want to find the answer out too quickly.
3rd the US. How far along would the US allow the Soviets to push them back before the US would feel the heat from the French for not doing enough in stopping the Soviet while the entire time they knowing that the French will not commit their troops East of the Rhine and if they don't they may be caught in the French exchange.
4th the Germans themselves and the rest of the alliance. They may not want to be under a Soviet Regime, but if France or the US start to use Nuke on German soil before they believe the situation got hopeless. Well we remember what the Italians did in WWII.
Just MHO and your particular outlook at the entire thing.
Abbott
********************
thefusilier 06-13-2004, 02:29 PM As far as the French wildcard is concerned, I tend to believe more along the lines of (I thought it was) Hackett's book where the French Army in Germany fights along side of NATO but under their own high command. I don't see the French doing nothing until the Reds are at the Rhine and then nuking them. That would only escalate the war in which the French can't win a nuke war against the USSR. They may not be the best of "allies" but it would be in there best interests to become involved depending on how things were going at the front.
thefusilier
********************
Matt Wiser 06-13-2004, 04:44 PM Hackett actually had the French II Corps in Germany chopped to SACEUR about 24 hours before the balloon went up in Germany; and I French Corps shows up on War Day-and he forms a SOUTHAG under French Command (II German Corps, I and II French Corps). The French AF flew its ground-attack missions in support of SOUTHAG, but their Air Defense Mirages went after any Soviet AF aircraft wherever directed by AWACS. It took some fast talking by SACEUR to get the French to divert an armored division meant for SOUTHAG to go to Maastricht in Holland as XI US Corps is forming up and the Krefeld Salient is getting B-52'd. (an ARC LIGHT replay over the Central Front-they wrecked 20th Guards Army as they were getting ready to push south along the West side of the Rhine. After the B-52s, XI US Corps, the French, and some Brits and Dutch came in and cleaned up the survivors: 39 B-52s flew the mission, 21 made it back). After that, the French lifted restrictions on their air force and they flew anywhere they were needed. Interesting that in both Hackett books the Pact did not attack West Berlin-they were expecting the garrison to surrender once the Pact reached the stop line. I do wonder what the CO of II German Corps must have felt, taking orders from the French, even though he's glad they're there.
********************
graebarde 06-13-2004, 07:19 PM Didn't V and VII Corps also have REFORGER-tagged units in CONUS?
In this time frame there were FIVE divisions in REFORGER status IIRC.
1 ID (M) (one brigade forward near Stuttgart) to VII Corps came out of Ft Riley KS to POMCUS near Kaiserslautern.
4 ID (M) (one brigade forward near Wiesbaden am Main) to V Corps came out of Ft Carson CO to POMCUS near Wiesbaden.
2 AD (one brigade forward near Padeborne in the north) to III Corps came out of Ft Hood TX to POMCUS near Paderborne.
1 CD (armored) to III Corps came out of Ft Hood TX to a POMCUS in Holland (IIRC)?
5 ID (M) to III Corps came out of Ft Hood TX to POMCUS in Belgium (IIRC)?
There was also a POMCUS near Mannheim. IN addition to the divisions 3 ACR was REFORGER to III Corps, as well as some III Corps Artillery and Engineer assets.
The order the units are listed is about the order they would come to Germany as well I think. 1 ID (M) was the 'best practiced in REFORGERS, They were the ONLY division that went on the annual REFORGER exercise for many years. It was just the late 70's when other divisions started to 'participate'. It was well into the 80's when the REFOREGER was held in northern Germany.
I recall the year 101st Airborne (AASLT) participated, it was about 1977. What a fiasco that was. Too them a long time ot get organized, and due to lack of organic transport cost several O-6 and a one-star thier careers when they 'commandeered' MY convoy of trucks for their use.. took me THREE days to find them, then shit rolled UP hill and DOWN again.
It was the same year I think the 1-75th Inf (RANGERS) came to the games.. NOW they were something else, flew the whole way from CONUS and made a mass tac jump on target. IF it were for real I don;t know how many would have survived the massive WP ADA umbrella, but hey they put on a good show.
Grae
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-15-2004, 08:12 AM Yeah, it always need those great shows.
Reminds me when a Soviet delegation from the Soviet military came to the US in 1989. They happen to visit Fort Bragg and our Battalion really Brigade to take part in a peep show.... Millions of Dollars of hardware sitting off the Normady dropzone to one of the impact areas...lol
Well about 7 PM the night before someone somewhere on base grew a brain and sudden six of use from my company(2 from a platoon) were sent out for overnight guard duty of the hardward out there... Seems no one had plan on this before hand. So six of us get taken out to make sure no comes to take a peek or mess with anything otherwise...(6 grunts not MPs and unarmed too so we could do the English Bobby of halt and what your business...lol) Well anyway the next morning when we thought we going back to Comany Area and have a day off. Oh no you can't leave the roads are blocked and no one knows you are here so you have to stay until the Ruskie leave in the back of the HMMWV...lol
Seemed like 10 hours later(but only 4) we load up and laugh about... Great thing this Friday otherwise I don't think we would have had the next 24 hours off that was promise when we snatch for the very important security detail...lol Or was it Saturday either way it great firework show to impress the shit out of them... Well anyway I could tell they were just about as impress as they are when they put on their own peep shows... They knew the deal...lol
Abbott
********************
Abbott Shaull 06-15-2004, 08:20 AM Yeah, it always need those great shows.
Reminds me when a Soviet delegation from the Soviet military came to the US in 1989. They happen to visit Fort Bragg and our Battalion really Brigade to take part in a peep show.... Millions of Dollars of hardware sitting off the Normady dropzone to one of the impact areas...lol
Well about 7 PM the night before someone somewhere on base grew a brain and sudden six of use from my company(2 from a platoon) were sent out for overnight guard duty of the hardward out there... Seems no one had plan on this before hand. So six of us get taken out to make sure no comes to take a peek or mess with anything otherwise...(6 grunts not MPs and unarmed too so we could do the English Bobby of halt and what your business...lol) Well anyway the next morning when we thought we going back to Comany Area and have a day off. Oh no you can't leave the roads are blocked and no one knows you are here so you have to stay until the Ruskie leave in the back of the HMMWV...lol
Seemed like 10 hours later(but only 4) we load up and laugh about... Great thing this Friday otherwise I don't think we would have had the next 24 hours off that was promise when we snatch for the very important security detail...lol Or was it Saturday either way it great firework show to impress the shit out of them... Well anyway I could tell they were just about as impress as they are when they put on their own peep shows... They knew the deal...lol
Abbott
********************
chico20854 03-14-2006, 12:34 PM I know this is an old, almost forgotten and dead thread, but I found an interesting website on Berlin:
http://www.western-allies-berlin.com/
It's still under construction but does have a detailed US and British orbat.
********************
shrike6 03-14-2006, 04:49 PM Hadn't seen that website, good catch Chico.
********************
graebardeII 03-15-2006, 01:17 AM One factiod: there was a Soviet GRU officer detailed to find every civilian gas station and car wash in West Germany, Holland, and Belgium. The gas stations-you can use captured fuel, and car washes can be used for NBC decontamination. They found tons of all this stuff in 1989-90.
cira 1975, Frankfurt aM FTG. Home of US V Corps and 3AD. I was stationed at Oberussel (just northwest of Frankfurt) at the time. Haig was CINCEUCOM at the time. He was asked if the Russians could be on the Rhine in two weeks, and bluntly said NO WAY.
The response the 3AD tankers in Giessen had (just up the road from us and Saturday night drinkers in our little club on Camp King) was "Only if they can get gas in Frankfurt." (these same guys planned to fight thier first major battle in the tank park if the balloon went up from a cold start)
That plan of action was NOT a well kept secret within the ranks. KGB/GRU agents also posed as truck drivers from Eastern European countries to recon the roads etc of West Germany.
In addition there were spies in the open in the form of SMLM?? We called them 'smellums'. They were Soviet Liaison Missions and drive around in marked cars, observing exercises. They had some restricted areas, but not many IIRC. We had the same in East Germany.
********************
Abbott Shaull 03-15-2006, 01:51 AM Yes, I remember some of the books I had read way back making similiar references to Officers on boths sides taking jobs as truck drivers so they could make delievers across the 'border' on similiar recon missions. It was always a strange game of chicken that at times was very real and serious played by both sides.
There was the 'Trust, but verify' mentality along with the mysterious jets that would just drop from the sky. It is interesting that back in the 70s and 80s when US or other NATO fighters would crash and it was business as normal. Now without the cold war when they crash, the Air Farce, Marines, or the Navy will halt all flying and take a saftey time out. Which is amazing that those crashes in the 70s and 80s were always catagorically called training accidents and most are today with the exceptions of those in active war zones. Now how much would you like to place down that most of those birds lost over Europe weren't really technical failure unless it involves shrapnel causing the failures...
There were plans to blow up all type of infastructure. Ironically once the Soviets were stopped and NATO started to puch back (if you go with the Soviets and Pact started the war) is that NATO would have fix almost as much damage that was self inflicted as well as that done by the Soviets. Like I have stated both sides had their versions of the suitcase nuke near the border so that damage could be done to the infastructure that would slow the enemy down. At least in West Germany it was one of those worse kept secrets amongst allies that both sides knows that everyone else knows, but they don't talk about for they are wishing they never have to be used. Yet, don't let the West Germans find them for it will embarrass not only Bonn, but Washington and the current US Army Europe Command too.
What is interesting there were probably more cache of equipment placed their by both sides in Germany, Czech, and Poland that will be found years from now that has long since forgotten. Well not so much forgotten but the paper trail to their existance was lost somehow in the shuffle of paperwork and those who knew where they were are long past gone.
I remember that year the 101st went over. I remember reading news clippings...lol Of course the news here seemed to make it sound like it all went off without hitch...lol I guess that explains why the 82nd was never really invited to play after that.
Abbott
********************
Abbott Shaull 03-15-2006, 01:54 AM Soviet Liasion Mission...lol The same things goes for any military or naval attachee who is worth their grain of salt. Just a spy under a cover that you know that is what you are doing, but you have to allow under the rules...lol
********************
Brit 04-06-2006, 02:21 AM British vehicles in Berlin also had some rather unique camoflage. This is it in model form: http://www.matadormodels.co.uk/tank_museum/xcamo_berlin.htm
********************
Targan 04-06-2006, 02:25 AM Thanks Brit, I had never seen that cammo pattern before, that is really fascinating. Do you think those colours and patterns would be effective? I think they probably would. I also found interesting the comment in that website about each vehicle having an identical cammo scheme in an effort to prevent the enemy from counting vehicles. Very interesting indeed.
********************
thefusilier 04-06-2006, 03:13 AM Anyone know anything about the 1st vehicle... the one that looks like an apc (similar maybe to FV-432) with the Fox turret on it?
********************
Brit 04-06-2006, 06:22 AM FV432 / Fox turret.
The good news! Paul Mulcahy has stats and info for it on his site: http://www.pmulcahy.com/tracked_apcs/british_tracked_apcs.htm
The Christopher F. Foss book I mentioned / quoted on another string said that the British Army intended to issue seventeen of them to each Infantry Mechanized Battalion. Seems this didn't happen.
Wikpedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FV432 say thirteen were converted.
There's more info and another pic of a real vehicle here: http://www.fv432.com/fv43xfamily.htm
I find this quote on that site interesting... "Of course the biggest horror with FV432 was the discovery during the design work for a particular IK [Installation Kits]in the mid-'80s that British engineering had been somewhat 'indifferent' in the 1960s, internal dimensions could vary by a few inches! This may have affected how the ex 438 were used - some sorting to find vehicles that weren't too different in size!"
Anybody know if other vehicles had the same problem?
More pics of vehicles in this camo at http://www.accurate-armour.com/articles1.cfm?id=12&navlevel=2 and a painting guide for the Chieftain at http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/ArmourColours/Other/Chieftain-Berlin.jpg
As for would it have worked? There's a pic of a Chieftain in situ here http://www.emlra.org/articles/berlin_brigade.htm It does seem to merge into the background. The article states it almost disappears at 100 yards...
********************
thefusilier 04-06-2006, 06:36 AM Thanks.
********************
pmulcahy 04-06-2006, 08:14 AM When I was in ROTC, one of the instructors was an SGM who had been SF for most of his career. He was once assigned to SFDB in the late 70s, and he told us that while about a platoon of SFDB would stay in West Berlin if the balloon went up, the rest of SFDB was to leave Berlin and go cause trouble out in the area around Berlin and in East Berlin. He said they had huge stockpiles of weapons and equipment for their own use, including (as he put it) "unusual stuff," but he of course refused to elaborate on what sort of weapons, equipment, and "unusual stuff" they had.
********************
Brit 04-06-2006, 09:02 AM Thanks.
That's OK. When, a while back, I saw the FV432 / Fox vehicle on Paul's site I did a bit of Googling.
Forgot to include this on the earlier post. FV432 plus a Scorpion turret. I guess it just had to be tried! http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/7413/fv432turr.html
********************