kato13
01-22-2010, 12:02 AM
ReHerakhte 09-12-2004, 04:43 AM Anybody have any idea what the hell the weapon is in the following photo,
it's been displayed at http://www.jedsite.info/smallarms/smallarms-slr.html under their "Help Identify" section. Obviously it's some sort of rifle/grenade launcher combo along the lines of a smaller (lighter?) OICW but I haven't been able to find anything more :banghead:
TR if you can get some info on this I think you'll deserve an award :fsniper: LOL!
http://www.jedsite.info/smallarms/unknown/unk-slr_004.jpg
Cheers,
Kevin
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TR 09-12-2004, 09:00 AM Seen it, albeit at a different forum... no information has been yet released on it at this time. Nothing at least that has hit Western sites, so it remains in the category of unknown as it is unclear if this is just a prototype or a series of new weapons for China.
TR
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Chuck Mandus 09-12-2004, 06:01 PM Interesting looking. I'm guessing from the size of a magazine, it takes .30 cal "Russian Long" (7.62X54R). It reminds me of the new "high tech" shotguns out there but the mag and barrel look too small for 12 gauge and shotguns usually don't have high tech sights if that it what that thing on the top is. I remember about 15 years ago, their "type 81," basically an updated AK-47 made waves.
Chuck
DE KA3WRW
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TR 09-12-2004, 06:21 PM Speculation is that the weapon fires a 5.8x42mm or the conventional 7.62x39mm cartridge. If I had to guess I would think the 5.8mm cartrdige as China seems to want to develop their own rifle cartridge. The grenade launcher portion would probably be a 35mm caliber round as that is what they currently have in exsistance. The bulky scope is probably integrated with options for advanced ammunition like the OICW or a combination of telescopic and night vision optics.
Just my two cents...
TR
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ReHerakhte 09-13-2004, 06:18 AM A few thoughts...
Although the Chinese do use the 35mm grenade as their standard at the moment, I'm kinda disinclined to think that this unit uses a 35mm grenade as well, as the barrel section of the launcher seems a little too thin. As a very rough guide, the average Western male of 180cm/6ft height can get an approximation of 35mm from placing his middle & index fingers together, keep in mind that the launcher barrel of a 35mm weapon itself would be a few millimetres thicker than 35mm. The barrel on the launcher appears too small in comparison to the Chinese soldier's fingers (apologies again, I know it's a very rough comparison) for the same approximation to be made.
The magazine for the launcher does not look wide enough for 35mm although the pic is not a lot of help in determining its actual width. And if it is 35mm, the mag would probably hold no more than 3 rounds. It doesn't seem worth the effort to make such a combo weapon if the grenade launcher only holds two or three rounds.
I'd argue that the launcher is somewhere between 18mm & 25mm (and even then, 25mm still seems a little too wide for the mag). Given that the rifle magazine is likely to be 5.8mm of 30rds, the launcher mag is similar enough in dimensions to the OICW's 20mm magazine, then at least you would have an approximately 5-rd capacity which doesn't sound like much of an improvement at first but barrage fire is kind of pointless when you can only fire two or three rounds before needing a mag change.
Just some thoughts...
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TR 09-13-2004, 05:11 PM Personally I would love to see some different angle pics of this, it's hard to be 100% certain on this as we have 1 picture of a proto-type (don't even know if this is a mock up or an actual firing weapon)... you raise some good points but from one picture it's hard to tell much more. A 35mm calibre grenade launcher would only get a handful of rounds off before needing reloading, that much is a given. The ultimate question is how much is China copying the OICW concept as we could see grenade launcher rounds from 20 to 25mm on up... the only other pic I have seen of this weapon is even worse for analysis. Too dark to make out bore diameter and a shot from head on which was poorly illuminated... not to mention it was trying to show an entire future soldier concept suit with the weapon.
Still for Twilight I doubt it was anywhere near testing by 1996 but it is amusing to note that for Merc it would be perfect to throw at PC's... but the larger question of intel on it may take awhile as there are weapons I have confirmed from other sources that have yet to show up in Western Sources (i.e. Jane's).
:grumble:
Until Later
TR
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shrike6 09-13-2004, 07:04 PM TR, This is the only other picture I've been able to find. Its not much help.
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/wweweewwwwwww.jpg
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TR 09-13-2004, 07:18 PM That's the other photo I am refering to, first refrence I have seen to this weapon was around February 2004.
TR
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ReHerakhte 09-14-2004, 03:39 AM ... but the larger question of intel on it may take awhile as there are weapons I have confirmed from other sources that have yet to show up in Western Sources (i.e. Jane's).
:grumble:
Until Later
TR
He He He, I'm reminded of the situation regarding the AK74 rifle, no intelligence service in the world was able to get a hold of one or even get any user comments on it until Soldier Of Fortune magazine went to Pakistan during the Russian War in Afghanistan and actually bought one from a gun dealer there.
And that was how long ago!? So I am not surprised that Jane's knows next to nothing about some of these weapons :annoyed:
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
Grimace 09-14-2004, 07:50 PM I took that second pic and used some filters on it. Judging from the look of it, the barrell probably isn't any larger than .50 cal. I'll try to attach what I've got so you can see it as well.
http://www.reocities.com/grimace997/Post/light.jpg
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ReHerakhte 09-15-2004, 04:42 AM Interesting... so say we make it 15mm (.50cal being 12.7mm I think we can play around with the size a little, after all, it's only another 2.3mm!), that doesn't give much room inside the projectile for any sort of decent anti-personnel or anti-armour load. 15mm HE would be okay for use against unarmoured vehicles and buildings (and inside tunnels etc.) and I suppose you could add specialized rounds like tear gas or smoke (although there still isn't much room for a useful load of smoke). I think we can rule out any serious anti-armour round as the muzzle velocity would never be high enough to make the weapon effective even if it was 40mm.
:baddevil: Just had an evil thought... we are a group of Twilight fans with a broad range of skills, experiences, training and hobbies. Here we are doing all the sort of analysis that NATO military intelligence would have done upon gaining any photo of a new WarPac weapon/weapon system. It'd be funny as hell if Western intelligence was 'listening in' to our conversations to see what info we come up with considering the lack of resources many departments face these days!
And if that is the case, at least they could give us a pat on the back if we found out something! :cocktail: :beer:
But back to the serious... Let's say the weapon is 15mm to 20mm. It could be a 12g shotgun easy enough at that range of sizes but the Chinese don't seem to be big users of shotguns for the military so let's rule that one out for the moment.
So I figure we are still left with some sort of basic HE grenade support weapon, now unless the Chinese have come up with some significant advances in explosives or guidance to make the weapon more effective than current in-service weapons, I'm willing to bet that this is not capable of being anything more than a proof-of-concept demonstrator for future technologies. That means I think it is unlikely that it will ever be a working weapon system in the form it currently possesses (how many changes in shape/form did the OICW go through, I can recall at least three and there may well have been more)
And without better photos or some hard intel, I'm all out of other ideas for the moment :confused4 ...
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TiggerCCW UK 09-15-2004, 08:09 AM As best I recall the Chinese have copied a number of US weapons in the past using stolen plans etc. I think the M16 was one of them, and there might have been some commercial shotguns that were copied as well. Is it possible that they have managed to do the same thing with the OICW? As far as the apparently small calibre of the under barrel weapon goes, is it possible that its designed to be small and light specifically for FIBUA? :schuss:
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TR 09-16-2004, 12:46 PM Interestingly enough got my Jane's CO-IN (or renamed Police & Security Equipment) 97-98 book in yesterday... some of the Chinese Crowd Control weapons give us some indication of prior calibers they have worked with.
35mm, 38mm, 45mm and 48mm have been used prior for rifle grenades as well as riot guns/grenade launchers. Some of the designs are patterned on the Colt M-203 grenade launcher (shoulder fired with a stock), Sanaye Jangafzarsazi Hoshdars KP & TP Weapons (those are Iranian break open 38mm single shot weapons), and the Milkor MGL in 38mm.
The attached image should amuse this crowd, inteneded for use with crowd control munitions but it reminds me as a Kramfpistole from Germany WWII so a small HE round vairant could be interesting for the game.
Just something to think about and fuel to the discussion...
TR
********************
it's been displayed at http://www.jedsite.info/smallarms/smallarms-slr.html under their "Help Identify" section. Obviously it's some sort of rifle/grenade launcher combo along the lines of a smaller (lighter?) OICW but I haven't been able to find anything more :banghead:
TR if you can get some info on this I think you'll deserve an award :fsniper: LOL!
http://www.jedsite.info/smallarms/unknown/unk-slr_004.jpg
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TR 09-12-2004, 09:00 AM Seen it, albeit at a different forum... no information has been yet released on it at this time. Nothing at least that has hit Western sites, so it remains in the category of unknown as it is unclear if this is just a prototype or a series of new weapons for China.
TR
********************
Chuck Mandus 09-12-2004, 06:01 PM Interesting looking. I'm guessing from the size of a magazine, it takes .30 cal "Russian Long" (7.62X54R). It reminds me of the new "high tech" shotguns out there but the mag and barrel look too small for 12 gauge and shotguns usually don't have high tech sights if that it what that thing on the top is. I remember about 15 years ago, their "type 81," basically an updated AK-47 made waves.
Chuck
DE KA3WRW
********************
TR 09-12-2004, 06:21 PM Speculation is that the weapon fires a 5.8x42mm or the conventional 7.62x39mm cartridge. If I had to guess I would think the 5.8mm cartrdige as China seems to want to develop their own rifle cartridge. The grenade launcher portion would probably be a 35mm caliber round as that is what they currently have in exsistance. The bulky scope is probably integrated with options for advanced ammunition like the OICW or a combination of telescopic and night vision optics.
Just my two cents...
TR
********************
ReHerakhte 09-13-2004, 06:18 AM A few thoughts...
Although the Chinese do use the 35mm grenade as their standard at the moment, I'm kinda disinclined to think that this unit uses a 35mm grenade as well, as the barrel section of the launcher seems a little too thin. As a very rough guide, the average Western male of 180cm/6ft height can get an approximation of 35mm from placing his middle & index fingers together, keep in mind that the launcher barrel of a 35mm weapon itself would be a few millimetres thicker than 35mm. The barrel on the launcher appears too small in comparison to the Chinese soldier's fingers (apologies again, I know it's a very rough comparison) for the same approximation to be made.
The magazine for the launcher does not look wide enough for 35mm although the pic is not a lot of help in determining its actual width. And if it is 35mm, the mag would probably hold no more than 3 rounds. It doesn't seem worth the effort to make such a combo weapon if the grenade launcher only holds two or three rounds.
I'd argue that the launcher is somewhere between 18mm & 25mm (and even then, 25mm still seems a little too wide for the mag). Given that the rifle magazine is likely to be 5.8mm of 30rds, the launcher mag is similar enough in dimensions to the OICW's 20mm magazine, then at least you would have an approximately 5-rd capacity which doesn't sound like much of an improvement at first but barrage fire is kind of pointless when you can only fire two or three rounds before needing a mag change.
Just some thoughts...
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TR 09-13-2004, 05:11 PM Personally I would love to see some different angle pics of this, it's hard to be 100% certain on this as we have 1 picture of a proto-type (don't even know if this is a mock up or an actual firing weapon)... you raise some good points but from one picture it's hard to tell much more. A 35mm calibre grenade launcher would only get a handful of rounds off before needing reloading, that much is a given. The ultimate question is how much is China copying the OICW concept as we could see grenade launcher rounds from 20 to 25mm on up... the only other pic I have seen of this weapon is even worse for analysis. Too dark to make out bore diameter and a shot from head on which was poorly illuminated... not to mention it was trying to show an entire future soldier concept suit with the weapon.
Still for Twilight I doubt it was anywhere near testing by 1996 but it is amusing to note that for Merc it would be perfect to throw at PC's... but the larger question of intel on it may take awhile as there are weapons I have confirmed from other sources that have yet to show up in Western Sources (i.e. Jane's).
:grumble:
Until Later
TR
********************
shrike6 09-13-2004, 07:04 PM TR, This is the only other picture I've been able to find. Its not much help.
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/wweweewwwwwww.jpg
********************
TR 09-13-2004, 07:18 PM That's the other photo I am refering to, first refrence I have seen to this weapon was around February 2004.
TR
********************
ReHerakhte 09-14-2004, 03:39 AM ... but the larger question of intel on it may take awhile as there are weapons I have confirmed from other sources that have yet to show up in Western Sources (i.e. Jane's).
:grumble:
Until Later
TR
He He He, I'm reminded of the situation regarding the AK74 rifle, no intelligence service in the world was able to get a hold of one or even get any user comments on it until Soldier Of Fortune magazine went to Pakistan during the Russian War in Afghanistan and actually bought one from a gun dealer there.
And that was how long ago!? So I am not surprised that Jane's knows next to nothing about some of these weapons :annoyed:
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
Grimace 09-14-2004, 07:50 PM I took that second pic and used some filters on it. Judging from the look of it, the barrell probably isn't any larger than .50 cal. I'll try to attach what I've got so you can see it as well.
http://www.reocities.com/grimace997/Post/light.jpg
********************
ReHerakhte 09-15-2004, 04:42 AM Interesting... so say we make it 15mm (.50cal being 12.7mm I think we can play around with the size a little, after all, it's only another 2.3mm!), that doesn't give much room inside the projectile for any sort of decent anti-personnel or anti-armour load. 15mm HE would be okay for use against unarmoured vehicles and buildings (and inside tunnels etc.) and I suppose you could add specialized rounds like tear gas or smoke (although there still isn't much room for a useful load of smoke). I think we can rule out any serious anti-armour round as the muzzle velocity would never be high enough to make the weapon effective even if it was 40mm.
:baddevil: Just had an evil thought... we are a group of Twilight fans with a broad range of skills, experiences, training and hobbies. Here we are doing all the sort of analysis that NATO military intelligence would have done upon gaining any photo of a new WarPac weapon/weapon system. It'd be funny as hell if Western intelligence was 'listening in' to our conversations to see what info we come up with considering the lack of resources many departments face these days!
And if that is the case, at least they could give us a pat on the back if we found out something! :cocktail: :beer:
But back to the serious... Let's say the weapon is 15mm to 20mm. It could be a 12g shotgun easy enough at that range of sizes but the Chinese don't seem to be big users of shotguns for the military so let's rule that one out for the moment.
So I figure we are still left with some sort of basic HE grenade support weapon, now unless the Chinese have come up with some significant advances in explosives or guidance to make the weapon more effective than current in-service weapons, I'm willing to bet that this is not capable of being anything more than a proof-of-concept demonstrator for future technologies. That means I think it is unlikely that it will ever be a working weapon system in the form it currently possesses (how many changes in shape/form did the OICW go through, I can recall at least three and there may well have been more)
And without better photos or some hard intel, I'm all out of other ideas for the moment :confused4 ...
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TiggerCCW UK 09-15-2004, 08:09 AM As best I recall the Chinese have copied a number of US weapons in the past using stolen plans etc. I think the M16 was one of them, and there might have been some commercial shotguns that were copied as well. Is it possible that they have managed to do the same thing with the OICW? As far as the apparently small calibre of the under barrel weapon goes, is it possible that its designed to be small and light specifically for FIBUA? :schuss:
********************
TR 09-16-2004, 12:46 PM Interestingly enough got my Jane's CO-IN (or renamed Police & Security Equipment) 97-98 book in yesterday... some of the Chinese Crowd Control weapons give us some indication of prior calibers they have worked with.
35mm, 38mm, 45mm and 48mm have been used prior for rifle grenades as well as riot guns/grenade launchers. Some of the designs are patterned on the Colt M-203 grenade launcher (shoulder fired with a stock), Sanaye Jangafzarsazi Hoshdars KP & TP Weapons (those are Iranian break open 38mm single shot weapons), and the Milkor MGL in 38mm.
The attached image should amuse this crowd, inteneded for use with crowd control munitions but it reminds me as a Kramfpistole from Germany WWII so a small HE round vairant could be interesting for the game.
Just something to think about and fuel to the discussion...
TR
********************