kato13
01-22-2010, 12:04 AM
TR 10-02-2004, 11:04 PM This might make for some interesting material, been thinking about of late New America as it was laid in Howling Wilderness, Kidnapped and the other materials. It was clear that this was an amalgamation of exssting survivorlist/supremacist groups of the 1980's (Covenant, Sword, Arm of the Lord et al) but intended to be the group that was under the radar of law enforcement until it was too late.
Who are the enemies in the shattered ruins of America to be dealt with? No, I don't count famine, disease, etc in this equation either. These groups below might not have to be killed to be dealt with but let's see how much info we can put together on the fractured states...
The Top Thirteen List Of Sorts
1.) New America's cells
2.) Exsisting Survivalist/Supremacist Groups (Real World or otherwise)
3.) Sepratist Groups who believe the races should be seprated for their own good.
4.) Extremist Groups (Left & Right Wing, if you think about you could easily
have groups spring up all over the place opposing Civgov or Milgov)
5.) Succesionist Groups (Plenty of folk would want to suceed and form their own enclaves).
6.) Pure Survivalist Groups, not nesecarily racist but they would want to be left alone and would be armed and prepared for the nuclear war (compared to normal folk).
7.) The Patriot/Militia elements, these folk could be enemies of either side if they believed them to be comitting acts which were in direct contradicition with their values.
8.) Religious Cults, think of the folks like Jim Jones, Heavens Gate and the like being able to conduct their affairs without law enforcement involvement in their day to day operations.
9.) Division Cuba / Wayward Soviet Forces (For our friends in Texas, etc).
10.) Rogue Military Units (Civgov or Milgov of course not to mention National Guard units which never sided with the factions).
11.) Criminal Elements running rogue in America, everything from the remnants of street gangs to the obligatory biker groups, etc.
12.) Rogue Law Enforcement elements, everything from county, state and federal groups could be lumped into here. They could be purely forming their own enclaves or if you want to take a dark turn they could be comitting all manner of crimes.
13.) You could really spice things up and have all manner of groups trying to reclaim lost territory from the USA. Not just Mexico but many of the Native American tribes in North America and the like. This is discussed in the Urban Guerrilla adventure wasn't it? But you could throw in any minority element you wish if you want to really make things chaotic.
What do the rest of you think, we missed anyone?
Until Later
TR
:come:
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TiggerCCW UK 10-05-2004, 03:43 AM Here goes;
1 New America
I don't see New America as a huge problem after the events in Kidnapped. Without a central leader I think the cells will be more likely to fragment and become smaller marauder bands.
2 Existing Survivalist/Supremicist groups
Can become a problem, but I feel that most of these groups will be in a position of limited resources, as much as everyone else, so the harm they can cause will be limited.
3 Sepratist groups
I feel that they too will be badly hampered by lack of supplies and equipment. I also feel that they will have lost a lot of support as people will have accepted that they need to work together for a common good.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 10-05-2004, 03:59 AM Sorry - didn't mean to post till I'd answered all thirteen of the points made. oops.
4 Extremist groups.
These will be a considerable problem for both sides, although in small areas only. The groups are usually too fragmented to form a cohesive front, but in areas of special imprtance they can cause untold problems by seizing strategic points.
5 Secessionit groups
Similar to extremist groups - they will be a thorn in the side of the government, but it depends on their location as to how much harm they can do.
6 Pure Survivalist Groups
Could be a problem or a blessing. If the group is purely interested in Survival they may be in a position to help and trade with the local authorities. On the other hand they could be viewed as being a significant threat as they may be well armed and equipped and unwilling to cooperate.
7 Patriot/Militia
Again it will depend on their location as regards how much of a threat they actually are to the governments, but I think they would probably have to be eliminated sooner rather than later.
8 Religious Cults
These are usually fairly self destructive, but could gain a lot of support in a post apocalyptic period. I would expect that most groups would spend their time fighting each other as heretics, but if a single leader could be found they could become very dangerous.
9 Division Cuba/Wayward Soviet forces
Potentially the most dangerous as they have better equipment than most civilian groups, and are better organised as well. To counterbalance that US forces are normally going to be aware of their locations and hopefully have forces in place to prevent them from becoming a major problem. The most dangerous ones would be if there are any spec ops teams still working in small groups where they could sabotage vital parts of the reconstruction efforts.
10 Rogue Military Units
Similarly to hostile military forces they could well become a major threat, unless they are countered by loyal forces. The advantage they have would be a better knowledge of their AO and possibly the support of locals, in the example of a Guard unit gone rogue to defend its own town.
11 Criminal elements
Usually to fragmented to pose a major threat to the governments, but like the cults, if they can unite they become very dangerous.
12 Rogue Law Enforcement
Similar to rogue military, but not as well equipped.
13 Groups trying to reclaim territory.
I think that these would be a problem only on a local scale.
Overall I don't think that any one of the groups poses a major problem to either Milgov or Civgov, but that when you combine them all together there is a huge threat to both elements of the US govt.
********************
shrike6 10-05-2004, 09:51 AM TR,
Not sure whether you count this as an extremist group or not but if you don't how about militant enviromentalists like ELF.
********************
graebarde 10-05-2004, 10:37 AM I think your list is pretty comprehensive. As stated, many of them are localized problems, though they could spread, and some are mobile. While not being a problem for organized government units, they will be a major problem for anyone trying to survive in areas they are operating in.
The ONLY one I think that would not be a problem is the 'pure survivalist'. While they are surviving, it is not said that they are wanting to be left out of the reconstruction. They planned for the day in which things came tumbling down around them, but are able to survive because they were prepared. Now they have the tools, physical and mental, to survive, but are just ordinary people, not fanatics, conspiritist, or any other tripe. They are usually hard working citizens, involved in local politics some, and low-keyed in their planning. They approached survivalism like insurance, it was there if they needed it, hoping it would never have to be. It is the extremeist that gives 'survivalism' a bad name.
It is groups such as this that will rebuild the country IMHO.
********************
TR 10-05-2004, 05:53 PM Survivalists aren't a bad thing or good thing, I think what I was getting at was the 80's trend of survival groups and communities... that would be more of an issue in that they would probably want to be left toally alone and any encroachment on their land could be an issue which could be met with force based on the severity of the matter. Imagine a group of squatters on land owned b survivalists, they might not like that fact that their resouces are being used up by this group... hence tension.
Envrionmental groups are an interesting twist on things, hadn't factored them into this. Tip of the hat to shrike6 for pointing that out to me...
Until Later
TR
********************
Jason Weiser 10-07-2004, 10:06 AM Well, we have covered the right wing lunatics, but what about the left wing lunatics? There's a lot of folks who would see this as means to locally advance their pet political philisophy, and not all of them are on the right. :skull:
Everybody from the CPUSA to the Young Spartacists (not so young anymore) are going to be trouble when the Twilight occurs.
********************
TR 10-07-2004, 04:56 PM HEH
Not all of the one's I listed were right wing, many transcend such listings... but short of groups like the Weather Underground being formed, Socialist Parties, Nazi Parties and the like not all might rise up so to speak. Still interesting to conetmplate those groups being involved...
TR
********************
shrike6 10-07-2004, 08:34 PM TR,
This maybe an expansion of your Division Cuba/Wayward Soviet forces category but how about Escaped WarPact POWs.
********************
TR 10-07-2004, 08:59 PM That could prove to be interesting, I seem to recall stories about German POW's in America in WWII? Can anyone else confirm this as this would be good fodder for Twilight, Polish, Czech and other nationality troops running free in the backwoods of America...
Until Later
TR
********************
Matt Wiser 10-07-2004, 10:04 PM There were indeed German POWs in the U.S in WW II: 300,000 of them, plus 50,000 Italians, and serveral thousand Japanese held in CONUS. One of the Challenge articles (I don't remember which) did deal with some escaped WARPAC POWs in PA and NJ. Of course, some may still be behind the wire in either CivGov or MilGov areas, others may have joined the local community, others may have gone bandit/maruader, and some may be trying to get to Texas and rejoin Soviet forces. I'm sure that there might be some kind of release program where the POWs are released provided they swear loyalty to CivGov or MilGov. By 2000, there's no sense keeping these people behind barbed wire-they might be useful in other ways. In Iran and Europe, the question of POWs is different-the war's still ongoing, and you'd better keep them penned up.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 10-08-2004, 03:24 AM Completely off topic, but my Primary School (Elementary for the Americans) was built in 1939, just before WW2. With the evacuation of the kids it was never used as a school till after the war and was pressed into service as a POW hospital. Wile I was there (1985) they found an old stretcher and first aid kit from the war. Theres also the story of the escaping prisoner who was shot at the end of my street and now haunts it, but I've never found any evidence of that. Sadly its being demolished next year so that they can build some appartments on the site.
********************
chico20854 10-08-2004, 07:28 AM An alternative campaign idea - escaped/released POWs try to return to their homeland after the end of the war.
It would be analogous to the actions of the Czech Brigade in the Russian Civil War -
from:
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/russia/lectures/28civilwar.html
"II. Uprising of Czechoslovak Brigade
Full-scale civil war and Allied intervention followed an uprising in May 1918 of the Czechoslovak Brigade in Russia. The Czechs had joined the imperial Russian army during World War I and, surviving its collapse, remained perhaps the best organized military force in Russia. Wishing to go to the French front to fight for an independent Czechoslovakia, the Czechs quarreled with Soviet authorities. Then they seized the Trans-Siberian Railroad, cleared the reds from most of Siberia, and aided their white opponents."
The Czechs were captured Austro-Hungarian soldiers...
********************
Chuck Mandus 10-13-2004, 06:12 PM That could prove to be interesting, I seem to recall stories about German POW's in America in WWII? Can anyone else confirm this as this would be good fodder for Twilight, Polish, Czech and other nationality troops running free in the backwoods of America...
Until Later
TR
I'm sure they would try to look for ways to get back home, a sort of "reverse situation" as we have in many Twilight games run in Europe. Failing that, they might just meld into the general population, get jobs, offer their skills, bumming around the countryside like everyone else and so on. I remember one Twilighter played a Soviet POW and after the nukes went off, he basically was free and bummed around the US trying to survive. He eventually ended up in Louisiana and marrying a young lady named Brittany Spears. ;)
Chuck
********************
ChalkLine 10-13-2004, 09:13 PM Survivalists ( 'la '80s) were a problem in that they often had a culture of thought that dictated isolationism, they were hoarders and non-community minded. If the PCs were stationed at/working for/part of a threatened settlement they may well be sent out to secure hoarded stores, hoarding is illegal in an emergency. Often the government schism would be used as an excuse to retain hoards.
Some spice can be added with:
- The local authority doesn't want violence to be an answer, the PCs must infiltrate and secure without shooting (a tough call, survivalist are often well armed)
- The survivalists have a 'patrol' out, if the PCs secure the stores the patrol takes hostages and demands the stores are returned.
- The survivalists are sick, they've developed a mutant strain of influenza while in isolation, the PCs may be infected.
- A collaborator tips off the survivalists, who set up an ambush on the approach.
- Another group of survivalists have depleted their stores, the credo of 'gun = food' is used and they attack the group the PCs are negotiating with during thetalks. The attacked group think the PCs are just a diversion and open fire.
(Edit PS: Please note, this is not a judgement on survivalists as a group, rather the survivalists are of the 'isolationist survivalist' variety, those that refuse to work as a community and willing to survive at the expense of others.)
********************
Who are the enemies in the shattered ruins of America to be dealt with? No, I don't count famine, disease, etc in this equation either. These groups below might not have to be killed to be dealt with but let's see how much info we can put together on the fractured states...
The Top Thirteen List Of Sorts
1.) New America's cells
2.) Exsisting Survivalist/Supremacist Groups (Real World or otherwise)
3.) Sepratist Groups who believe the races should be seprated for their own good.
4.) Extremist Groups (Left & Right Wing, if you think about you could easily
have groups spring up all over the place opposing Civgov or Milgov)
5.) Succesionist Groups (Plenty of folk would want to suceed and form their own enclaves).
6.) Pure Survivalist Groups, not nesecarily racist but they would want to be left alone and would be armed and prepared for the nuclear war (compared to normal folk).
7.) The Patriot/Militia elements, these folk could be enemies of either side if they believed them to be comitting acts which were in direct contradicition with their values.
8.) Religious Cults, think of the folks like Jim Jones, Heavens Gate and the like being able to conduct their affairs without law enforcement involvement in their day to day operations.
9.) Division Cuba / Wayward Soviet Forces (For our friends in Texas, etc).
10.) Rogue Military Units (Civgov or Milgov of course not to mention National Guard units which never sided with the factions).
11.) Criminal Elements running rogue in America, everything from the remnants of street gangs to the obligatory biker groups, etc.
12.) Rogue Law Enforcement elements, everything from county, state and federal groups could be lumped into here. They could be purely forming their own enclaves or if you want to take a dark turn they could be comitting all manner of crimes.
13.) You could really spice things up and have all manner of groups trying to reclaim lost territory from the USA. Not just Mexico but many of the Native American tribes in North America and the like. This is discussed in the Urban Guerrilla adventure wasn't it? But you could throw in any minority element you wish if you want to really make things chaotic.
What do the rest of you think, we missed anyone?
Until Later
TR
:come:
********************
TiggerCCW UK 10-05-2004, 03:43 AM Here goes;
1 New America
I don't see New America as a huge problem after the events in Kidnapped. Without a central leader I think the cells will be more likely to fragment and become smaller marauder bands.
2 Existing Survivalist/Supremicist groups
Can become a problem, but I feel that most of these groups will be in a position of limited resources, as much as everyone else, so the harm they can cause will be limited.
3 Sepratist groups
I feel that they too will be badly hampered by lack of supplies and equipment. I also feel that they will have lost a lot of support as people will have accepted that they need to work together for a common good.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 10-05-2004, 03:59 AM Sorry - didn't mean to post till I'd answered all thirteen of the points made. oops.
4 Extremist groups.
These will be a considerable problem for both sides, although in small areas only. The groups are usually too fragmented to form a cohesive front, but in areas of special imprtance they can cause untold problems by seizing strategic points.
5 Secessionit groups
Similar to extremist groups - they will be a thorn in the side of the government, but it depends on their location as to how much harm they can do.
6 Pure Survivalist Groups
Could be a problem or a blessing. If the group is purely interested in Survival they may be in a position to help and trade with the local authorities. On the other hand they could be viewed as being a significant threat as they may be well armed and equipped and unwilling to cooperate.
7 Patriot/Militia
Again it will depend on their location as regards how much of a threat they actually are to the governments, but I think they would probably have to be eliminated sooner rather than later.
8 Religious Cults
These are usually fairly self destructive, but could gain a lot of support in a post apocalyptic period. I would expect that most groups would spend their time fighting each other as heretics, but if a single leader could be found they could become very dangerous.
9 Division Cuba/Wayward Soviet forces
Potentially the most dangerous as they have better equipment than most civilian groups, and are better organised as well. To counterbalance that US forces are normally going to be aware of their locations and hopefully have forces in place to prevent them from becoming a major problem. The most dangerous ones would be if there are any spec ops teams still working in small groups where they could sabotage vital parts of the reconstruction efforts.
10 Rogue Military Units
Similarly to hostile military forces they could well become a major threat, unless they are countered by loyal forces. The advantage they have would be a better knowledge of their AO and possibly the support of locals, in the example of a Guard unit gone rogue to defend its own town.
11 Criminal elements
Usually to fragmented to pose a major threat to the governments, but like the cults, if they can unite they become very dangerous.
12 Rogue Law Enforcement
Similar to rogue military, but not as well equipped.
13 Groups trying to reclaim territory.
I think that these would be a problem only on a local scale.
Overall I don't think that any one of the groups poses a major problem to either Milgov or Civgov, but that when you combine them all together there is a huge threat to both elements of the US govt.
********************
shrike6 10-05-2004, 09:51 AM TR,
Not sure whether you count this as an extremist group or not but if you don't how about militant enviromentalists like ELF.
********************
graebarde 10-05-2004, 10:37 AM I think your list is pretty comprehensive. As stated, many of them are localized problems, though they could spread, and some are mobile. While not being a problem for organized government units, they will be a major problem for anyone trying to survive in areas they are operating in.
The ONLY one I think that would not be a problem is the 'pure survivalist'. While they are surviving, it is not said that they are wanting to be left out of the reconstruction. They planned for the day in which things came tumbling down around them, but are able to survive because they were prepared. Now they have the tools, physical and mental, to survive, but are just ordinary people, not fanatics, conspiritist, or any other tripe. They are usually hard working citizens, involved in local politics some, and low-keyed in their planning. They approached survivalism like insurance, it was there if they needed it, hoping it would never have to be. It is the extremeist that gives 'survivalism' a bad name.
It is groups such as this that will rebuild the country IMHO.
********************
TR 10-05-2004, 05:53 PM Survivalists aren't a bad thing or good thing, I think what I was getting at was the 80's trend of survival groups and communities... that would be more of an issue in that they would probably want to be left toally alone and any encroachment on their land could be an issue which could be met with force based on the severity of the matter. Imagine a group of squatters on land owned b survivalists, they might not like that fact that their resouces are being used up by this group... hence tension.
Envrionmental groups are an interesting twist on things, hadn't factored them into this. Tip of the hat to shrike6 for pointing that out to me...
Until Later
TR
********************
Jason Weiser 10-07-2004, 10:06 AM Well, we have covered the right wing lunatics, but what about the left wing lunatics? There's a lot of folks who would see this as means to locally advance their pet political philisophy, and not all of them are on the right. :skull:
Everybody from the CPUSA to the Young Spartacists (not so young anymore) are going to be trouble when the Twilight occurs.
********************
TR 10-07-2004, 04:56 PM HEH
Not all of the one's I listed were right wing, many transcend such listings... but short of groups like the Weather Underground being formed, Socialist Parties, Nazi Parties and the like not all might rise up so to speak. Still interesting to conetmplate those groups being involved...
TR
********************
shrike6 10-07-2004, 08:34 PM TR,
This maybe an expansion of your Division Cuba/Wayward Soviet forces category but how about Escaped WarPact POWs.
********************
TR 10-07-2004, 08:59 PM That could prove to be interesting, I seem to recall stories about German POW's in America in WWII? Can anyone else confirm this as this would be good fodder for Twilight, Polish, Czech and other nationality troops running free in the backwoods of America...
Until Later
TR
********************
Matt Wiser 10-07-2004, 10:04 PM There were indeed German POWs in the U.S in WW II: 300,000 of them, plus 50,000 Italians, and serveral thousand Japanese held in CONUS. One of the Challenge articles (I don't remember which) did deal with some escaped WARPAC POWs in PA and NJ. Of course, some may still be behind the wire in either CivGov or MilGov areas, others may have joined the local community, others may have gone bandit/maruader, and some may be trying to get to Texas and rejoin Soviet forces. I'm sure that there might be some kind of release program where the POWs are released provided they swear loyalty to CivGov or MilGov. By 2000, there's no sense keeping these people behind barbed wire-they might be useful in other ways. In Iran and Europe, the question of POWs is different-the war's still ongoing, and you'd better keep them penned up.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 10-08-2004, 03:24 AM Completely off topic, but my Primary School (Elementary for the Americans) was built in 1939, just before WW2. With the evacuation of the kids it was never used as a school till after the war and was pressed into service as a POW hospital. Wile I was there (1985) they found an old stretcher and first aid kit from the war. Theres also the story of the escaping prisoner who was shot at the end of my street and now haunts it, but I've never found any evidence of that. Sadly its being demolished next year so that they can build some appartments on the site.
********************
chico20854 10-08-2004, 07:28 AM An alternative campaign idea - escaped/released POWs try to return to their homeland after the end of the war.
It would be analogous to the actions of the Czech Brigade in the Russian Civil War -
from:
http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/russia/lectures/28civilwar.html
"II. Uprising of Czechoslovak Brigade
Full-scale civil war and Allied intervention followed an uprising in May 1918 of the Czechoslovak Brigade in Russia. The Czechs had joined the imperial Russian army during World War I and, surviving its collapse, remained perhaps the best organized military force in Russia. Wishing to go to the French front to fight for an independent Czechoslovakia, the Czechs quarreled with Soviet authorities. Then they seized the Trans-Siberian Railroad, cleared the reds from most of Siberia, and aided their white opponents."
The Czechs were captured Austro-Hungarian soldiers...
********************
Chuck Mandus 10-13-2004, 06:12 PM That could prove to be interesting, I seem to recall stories about German POW's in America in WWII? Can anyone else confirm this as this would be good fodder for Twilight, Polish, Czech and other nationality troops running free in the backwoods of America...
Until Later
TR
I'm sure they would try to look for ways to get back home, a sort of "reverse situation" as we have in many Twilight games run in Europe. Failing that, they might just meld into the general population, get jobs, offer their skills, bumming around the countryside like everyone else and so on. I remember one Twilighter played a Soviet POW and after the nukes went off, he basically was free and bummed around the US trying to survive. He eventually ended up in Louisiana and marrying a young lady named Brittany Spears. ;)
Chuck
********************
ChalkLine 10-13-2004, 09:13 PM Survivalists ( 'la '80s) were a problem in that they often had a culture of thought that dictated isolationism, they were hoarders and non-community minded. If the PCs were stationed at/working for/part of a threatened settlement they may well be sent out to secure hoarded stores, hoarding is illegal in an emergency. Often the government schism would be used as an excuse to retain hoards.
Some spice can be added with:
- The local authority doesn't want violence to be an answer, the PCs must infiltrate and secure without shooting (a tough call, survivalist are often well armed)
- The survivalists have a 'patrol' out, if the PCs secure the stores the patrol takes hostages and demands the stores are returned.
- The survivalists are sick, they've developed a mutant strain of influenza while in isolation, the PCs may be infected.
- A collaborator tips off the survivalists, who set up an ambush on the approach.
- Another group of survivalists have depleted their stores, the credo of 'gun = food' is used and they attack the group the PCs are negotiating with during thetalks. The attacked group think the PCs are just a diversion and open fire.
(Edit PS: Please note, this is not a judgement on survivalists as a group, rather the survivalists are of the 'isolationist survivalist' variety, those that refuse to work as a community and willing to survive at the expense of others.)
********************