kato13
09-10-2008, 05:16 AM
Mohoender 08-20-2008, 02:15 AM I ask that question because I have never seen anything on these two countries.
I have seen that Ireland got at least one nuke but I think that the country would be organized. Wouldn't the Irish try to take advantage of the general chaos in Ulster? The country was not modern as it is today but it still has some interesting asset especially in the Twilight world.
Switzerland is more interesting and the fact that it goes unoticed always stroke me. I would think that it entirely escaped the war for two reasons. It would be too costly to invade and (for the russians) you don't bomb your bank before withdrawing money. Then, I think that the country would influence the military balance at least slightly. Switzerland has a very good military industry (along with medical, food and high tech) and it would certainly still have electricity available. I'm sure it would be limited by ressources shortage but the country will probablly send supply to NATO and Germany (and why not to Russia itself through Austria).
Moreover, it's population would be more or less untouched and knowing the Swiss they would have quickly cut their borders to refugees (they have plenty of fortifications and crossing the mountains in the middle of a nuclear winter is hazardous at best). However, they would certainly care for those poor lads: what about the red cross? It might be active and it might still have what is needed for some relief actions.
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thefusilier 08-20-2008, 02:23 AM The Swiss are covered a little in main book. Its intact, secure, and safe. There is a black market along its borders but otherwise the best place to be.
Ireland did get involved with Ulster. Check out the 'UK Survivors Guide'.
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Mohoender 08-20-2008, 03:14 AM The Swiss are covered a little in main book. Its intact, secure, and safe. There is a black market along its borders but otherwise the best place to be.
Ireland did get involved with Ulster. Check out the 'UK Survivors Guide'.
True for Ireland, I forgot that. Still what would be the outcom as the country remain unspoiled in a way. Might not matter much so.
However, that's a all other story with the Swiss. I remember that it is the best place to be but I find this insufficient. With the position of France, the border will be open to some extend and some ressources will cross the border again. Moreover, the swiss will certainly sell stuff to whoever they can especially when everyone is exhausted and unable to do anything against it. I don't believe in the black market idea except if its managed by the state authorities. Black market will be only on the belligerents side. The red cross issue is also important. The sign might not protect them very well anymore but these guys are often ready to go anywhere and they might get backup from the swiss military when operating in countries that are close to their border. Moreover, the swiss will still play a large role in case of any negociation and they will be, as always, a transit place for intelligence operatives. :streit:
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Rainbow Six 08-20-2008, 10:16 AM True for Ireland, I forgot that. Still what would be the outcom as the country remain unspoiled in a way. Might not matter much so.
Not sure about it being unspoilt - I'm at work so don't have access to any material, but I seem to recall that Ireland (the Republic) was hit by some nuclear strikes?
Re: the Swiss, if I remember correctly isn't more or less every adult male householder in Switzerland technically in the Army Reserve and supposed to keep an assault rifle at home? So they're going to have one heck of a militia.
Personally, whilst I know that in Real Life the Swiss aren't big on joining international organisations, I wonder if in the circumstances of the Twilight World they'd consider some sort of alliance with the Franco Belgian Union for reasons of mutual convenience?
...might get backup from the swiss military when operating in countries that are close to their border...
I'm sure someone posted a while back about an adventure idea that involved encountering Swiss Guards in Poland...they were escorting the body of Pope John Paul II back to his native Krakow for burial.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-20-2008, 10:27 AM Switzerland has some satellite offices for the UN in Geneva or was in Zurich? I think it is Geneva. Since New York City, the parts that didn't get hammered as much is generally abandoned and left to gangs, a "rump UN" could still conduct business in Switzerland, however, what effect in the Twilight world would the UN be? A side note, an interesting adventure from a European (or other) perspective is to go to a post nuke US and rescue their UN diplomats.
Switzerland is much like the U.S., if you invade it, you'll find guns hiding behind every tree. IIRC, on one of the Morrow Project lists, one member talked to a sailor in the Soviet Navy when they stopped at Key West in 1990, the biggest fear of any Russian soldier is to be called upon to invade the U.S. He made the point that if it was a rural area, it would be farmers and hunters he would be up against and in the urban areas, the inner city gangs and The Mob would take care of the Russians.
Chuck M.
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thefusilier 08-20-2008, 11:04 AM Not sure about it being unspoilt - I'm at work so don't have access to any material, but I seem to recall that Ireland (the Republic) was hit by some nuclear strikes?
Bantry Bay is the only one listed. There is an oil terminal there.
Personally, whilst I know that in Real Life the Swiss aren't big on joining international organisations, I wonder if in the circumstances of the Twilight World they'd consider some sort of alliance with the Franco Belgian Union for reasons of mutual convenience?
That would probably negate their neutrality stance. Probably what saved them was staying out of the war completely. Not sure if they would risk that with something formal. Trade maybe, but that still is aiding someone's enemy.
Trivia... the Swiss also mined alot of their choke point bridges and tunnels for demolitions. This was something ongoing in the mid 80s at least. Blow the mountain passes to keep/slow the enemy. Charges already built into the structures or hollowed for quick placement.
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Mohoender 08-20-2008, 11:27 AM Indeed Bantry Bay is the only one listed, that's why I asked. Moreover, no army invaded Ireland and the Irish army despite being involved in Uster would be more or less intact. That leave us with a military weak country certainly not doing anything in term of military operations. However, I can imagine the Irish trading food and some minor goods with UK (actually I recall that the welsh were begining such trade). Moreover, the Irish navy can certainly police the area and the fishing fleet might be still operating, protected by these few Irisih patrol boat.
About the Swiss I don't imagine them being involved really with anyside but the UN idea is a good one. I imagine them remaining neutral until everyone being exhausted but at some point they might start trading. In the cannon, I always found that germany retained a very strong army (compared to others) and plenty of armor. To do this, you need spare parts and the German controlled territory is all near the Swiss border. I wouldn't find so surprising to have the Swiss selling military equipments in exchange for raw materials (various ressources could still be exploited in the German controlled areas). Same with the french. Of course, that would be helping one side but at a time when no one can respond anymore, why would they care? They might also be the starting point of some reconstrution process for the surrounding countries. Don't you think? Selling medical gears or furnishing chemical compounds seem also to be an option.
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Rainbow Six 08-20-2008, 11:42 AM Indeed Bantry Bay is the only one listed, that's why I asked. Moreover, no army invaded Ireland and the Irish army despite being involved in Uster would be more or less intact. That leave us with a military weak country certainly not doing anything in term of military operations. However, I can imagine the Irish trading food and some minor goods with UK (actually I recall that the welsh were begining such trade). Moreover, the Irish navy can certainly police the area and the fishing fleet might be still operating, protected by these few Irisih patrol boat.
Technically not entirely accurate to say no one invaded, as canon has the British Army invading the Irish Republic (UKSG iirc makes reference to the Battle of Drogheda).
Would agree that there's certainly potential for a fairly lively trade with parts of the UK though...
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Mohoender 08-20-2008, 12:47 PM Technically not entirely accurate to say no one invaded, as canon has the British Army invading the Irish Republic (UKSG iirc makes reference to the Battle of Drogheda).
Would agree that there's certainly potential for a fairly lively trade with parts of the UK though...
Thanks, I didn't know that or didn't see it. Therefore, the involvement was much bigger that what I thought.
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Mohoender 08-28-2008, 02:27 PM I have read the surviving guide to UK again today and found couple of things on Ireland. Actually, the fighting was not very hard and most of the country is certainly intact especially as UK had no air power to deploy.
Then, I checked on how Ireland make electricity. Most of it is made by coal and fuel plants (these are out), then, it has some kind of wind power and that might still be working (very small production at the time). More important, it relies on Peat Power Plants and these will certainly be working. Therefore, the country will certainly has access to some electricity (a rare thing in twilight) and various industries might well be in working order. I also can imagine Ireland being in the process of building new Peat Power Plants.
Another question, what about Peat Power Plants elsewhere?
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Hangfire7 08-28-2008, 03:49 PM I actualy did have the Swiss in a short campaign back when I had a face to face group circa 1990/91 where the Swiss were making forays out into Europe. I even wrote up a deck of encounter cards and had several of them dealing with the Swiss. Basicaly the Swiss wanted to expand some of their terrirory, reclaiming some of their debts and some of the local areas bordering Switzerland wanted to join with Switzerland and became protectorates. So the PCs could encounter intelligence agents, negotiators and such as well as actual armed patrols of the Swiss Army who were basicaly turning the area adjacent to their border into a demilitarized zone. The idea was they didn't want the beligerent powers brining their war to them.
And all of this was inspired by reading a gun magazine that had some cool swiss weapons in them ;)
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TiggerCCW UK 08-29-2008, 04:38 AM Then, I checked on how Ireland make electricity. Most of it is made by coal and fuel plants (these are out), then, it has some kind of wind power and that might still be working (very small production at the time). More important, it relies on Peat Power Plants and these will certainly be working. Therefore, the country will certainly has access to some electricity (a rare thing in twilight) and various industries might well be in working order. I also can imagine Ireland being in the process of building new Peat Power Plants.
I've been to one of the areas where they harvest the peat for the power plants and its huge and very heavily mechanised, so I'm not sure how much they would be able to gather or how much the plants need, so I think the available electricity would be very limited. Its essentially done on the same sort of scale as coal mining, so its a very big operation.
Heres the website for the main peat producers;
http://www.bnm.ie/corporate/index.jsp
If you look up 'Clonmacnoise' on Google maps the huge red areas that you can see are the peat beds where they harvest the peat, it'll give an idea of the size of the operation.
Small scale local peat use would be widespread though, and something that hadn't occurred to me - good catch.
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chico20854 08-29-2008, 09:27 AM The Swiss are covered a little in main book. Its intact, secure, and safe. There is a black market along its borders but otherwise the best place to be.
The one thing that will prevent both Ireland & Switzerland from carrying on a "business as usual" approach is the lack of petroleum products. The Swiss are self-sufficient for electricity (4 nuclear power plants plus a bunch of hydroelectric plants). They'll still need lubricants for their machinery and petroleum for their transportation network (other than electric-powered trains). Maybe they'd set up a trading alliance with the Franco-Belgian Union, exchanging electrical power and manufactured products for a share of the petroleum France is receiving from the Persian Gulf region.
I don't see much potential for Swiss trade with occupied Austria or war-ravaged Germany and Italy. Sure, there might be some small-scale trading, but the combatant nations are just too torn up to offer much of use to a more or less intact Switzerland.
As for Ireland, the lack of petroleum would be different. There were many areas of the Republic that didn't get connected to the electrical grid until the 1970s, and the loss of agricultural production from reversion to animal powered agriculture (never entirely absent) would probably be offset by the loss of population. So Ireland might very well be in a position to export surplus food, and the trade across the Irish Sea would fit the bill very well IMHO.
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Mohoender 08-29-2008, 10:30 AM I've been to one of the areas where they harvest the peat for the power plants and its huge and very heavily mechanised, so I'm not sure how much they would be able to gather or how much the plants need, so I think the available electricity would be very limited. Its essentially done on the same sort of scale as coal mining, so its a very big operation.
Heres the website for the main peat producers;
http://www.bnm.ie/corporate/index.jsp
If you look up 'Clonmacnoise' on Google maps the huge red areas that you can see are the peat beds where they harvest the peat, it'll give an idea of the size of the operation.
Small scale local peat use would be widespread though, and something that hadn't occurred to me - good catch.
Thanks for all these informations. I take the occasion to send the website (pdf) of an estimation about oil shale deposits
http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2005/5294/pdf/sir5294_508.pdf
The canon talk about it when describing Estonia and I hope that might interest someone.
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boogiedowndonovan 08-29-2008, 11:54 AM The Swiss are self-sufficient for electricity (4 nuclear power plants plus a bunch of hydroelectric plants). .
I'm no expert on nukes, but wouldn't EMP knock out the Swiss powerplants (and France/Belgium's for that matter?)
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Mohoender 08-29-2008, 12:25 PM I'm no expert on nukes, but wouldn't EMP knock out the Swiss powerplants (and France/Belgium's for that matter?)
I think you are right but as Switzerland remains intact, they will certainly have what is needed to repair them (at least some of them). That will certainly be the case also in France and Belgium. It will take some time but less for the Swiss, nevertheless.
I would think that they would repair the hydro power plants first and they might forget about the nuclear ones.
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Rainbow Six 08-30-2008, 04:07 AM On the subject of Ireland, canon refers to a breakout of Warsaw Pact prisoners from their POW camp in South West England.
I'd suggest it's feasable that some of those prisoners might try and make it by boat to the nearest neutral Country - i.e. the Republic of Ireland. Upon arrival in the Republic, the Irish could then extend to them the option of 'unofficially' joining the Irish Army. The Soviets get an Irish uniform, three meals a day, somewhere to sleep at night, and the promise of (an eventual) return to the Motherland. The Irish get a cadre of highly trained and experienced personnel to augment their armed forces.
I wouldn't envisage that there would be great numbers of Soviets who'd make it across the Irish Sea, perhaps no more than a hundred, but could you imagine the surprise of the Ulster Defence Regiment men who have been fighting Irish conscripts and suddenly find themselves up against Spetsnaz and Soviet Airborne veterans of the Norwegian Campaign (or survivors of the Polish 6th Pomeranians)...
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Mohoender 08-30-2008, 08:54 AM I know that the canon states the Irish army to fight on behalf of the IRA and, actually, I respect it. In fact, this has very little chance to happen as the Irish Army, the Garda Siochana (Civil Police) and the British security forces were regularly engaged in joint security operations against IRA.
However, I can imagine more easily that the Irish army would engage occasionaly some British pursuing forces and I would assume the IRA to draw more volunteers on because of the general chaos but it would be facing problems in getting supplies.
The Irish army seems to be well suited for police and security actions but it lacks offensive assets. However, it's not a conscript force with little skills and, in fact, it would have all it takes to face the Ulster Defence Regiment and probably defeat it quite quickly. It would be more difficult to destroy the IRA (because of its very nature).
Here is its supposed composition at the time of Twilight 2000 (compiled from what I could find).
Irish defence Force (Óglaigh na h-Eireann)
Regular volunteers: 13000 (3 years minimum term).
Reserve: 16000
It is organised into Eastern Command (HQ Dublin), Curragh Command (HQ Curragh), Southern Command (HQ Cork) and Western Command (HQ Athlone).
It can be organized into 4 Brigades and consists of:
- 11 infantry battalions.
- 1 Ranger company.
- 1 Tank squadron (scorpion light tank).
- 1 Recce squadron (Panhard AML60/AML90; AML60 were upgraded to AML20).
- 3 Artillery regiments (105mm Light Guns).
- 1 Independent artillery battery (may be 25-pdr as I suspect it to an honour unit).
- 1 Air defence regiment (Bofors L/70 and RBS-70 SAM).
- 3 Engineer companies.
An Forsa Cosanta Aituil (FCA/second line reserve): 22000 with 15000 engaged in active training.
- 18 infantry battalions.
- 3 Armored Cav squadron (Panhard VTT M3 & Timoney APC; since repalced by MOWAG Piranha III).
- 6 Artillery regiments (25-pdr).
- 3 Air defence batteries (probably Bofors L/70, may be L/60).
- 3 Engineer squadrons.
They also use the Carl Gustav and the MILAN AT missile (now replace by AT-4 and Javelin) as well as the browning 50 (FN), and they are equipped with 60/81mm mortars, M203 grenade launchers, AI 96 sniper rifles, FN MAG and Steyr AUG (it seems that they also had MP-5 but I'm not sure about that one). They have several mobile radar systems. Engineers are using Aardvark Mine clearing equipment and the Doking MV4 that is designed for urban areas.
Its air force is small, however, and consist mostly of small aircraft. It is part of the Army
Order of Battle (taken from Aeroflight, it can be somewhat inaccurate):
The main base is at Baldonnel (Dublin). They have several secondary bases but I have been unable to identify them.
Wing Squadron(the numbers are the delivered aircrafts)
1 Operations Wing
101 Squadron: 3 CN.235
102 Squadron: 3 Beech 200, 1 Gulfsteam III, 1 Gulfstream IV*
104 Squadron: 8 Cessna FR.172H/K (10 max)
3 Operations Wing
301 Squadron: 3 SA.365F Dolphin, 4 Alouette III
302 Squadron: 2 SA.365F Dolphin, 4 Alouette III
303 Squadron: 2 SA.342L Gazelle
4 and 5 Operations Wing are support wings and they have a CIS squadron (communication).
Air Corps College
Flying Training Schoo:l 15 SF-260W Warrior and 7 Fouga Magister jet trainer.
The navy had 2 Small Patrol Corvette, 4 offshore patrol vessels, and operates 11 Westland Lynx.
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chico20854 08-30-2008, 09:52 AM The NATO orbat on Tank-net (at microarmormayhem (http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc)
has the following orbat for the Irish Army & Air Force: (it also has the Swiss, Swedes, Austrians & Finns)
1. Southern Command
a. 1st Brigade – Cork:
1. 2 Infantry Bns, each: 2 Rifle Cos, Support Co.
2. 1 Cavalry Recon Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regt
4. 1 Engineer Co
b. FCA Group, Southern Command – Cork:
1. 6 Infantry Battalions
2. 1 Motorised Reconnaissance Squadron
3. 2 Field Artillery Regiments
4. 2 Air Defence Batteries
5. 1 Field Engineer Company
2. Eastern Command
a. 2nd Brigade – Dublin:
1. 2 Infantry Bns, each: 2 Rifle Cos, Support Co.
2. 1 Cavalry Recon Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regt
4. 1 Engineer Co
b. Eastern Command Infantry Force – Gormanston: 2 Infantry Bns (may have been under command of Curragh group)
1. 27th Infantry Battalion – Dundalk:
2. 29th Infantry Battalion – Cootehill: Had 5 Timoney Mk IV APCs
c. FCA Group, Eastern Command – Dublin:
1. 4 Infantry Battalions
2. 1 Motorised Reconnaissance Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regiment
4. 1 Air Defence Battery
5. 1 Field Engineer Company
3. Western Command
a. 4th Brigade – Athlone:
1. 2 Infantry Bns, each: 2 Rifle Cos, Support Co.
2. 1 Cavalry Recon Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regt
4. 1 Engineer Co
b. 28th Infantry Battalion (Reinforced) – Finner Camp, Bundoran:
c. FCA Group, Western Command – Athlone:
1. 6 Infantry Battalions
2. 1 Motorised Reconnaissance Squadron
3. 2 Field Artillery Regiments
4. 1 Field Engineer Company
4. Curragh Command
a. 6th Brigade – Curragh Camp, County Kildare:
1. 3rd Infantry Battalion – Curragh: (includes 1 motor co w/12 AML VTTs)
2. 30th Infantry Battalion – Kilkenny:
2. 1st Armored Recon Squadron – Curragh: 4 AML H-90, 6 AML H-60, 3 AML VTT
3. 3rd Field Artillery Battery: 6 105mm Light Guns
b. Army Ranger Unit – Curragh Camp:
c. 1st Tank Squadron – Curragh Camp: 14 CVR(T) Scorpions
d. 1st Air Defense Regiment – Curragh Camp: 1 Regular, 3 FCA Air Defense Batteries. 6 40mm AA guns, 4 RBS-70 SAMs.
e. FCA Group Curragh Command – Curragh:
1. 9th Infantry Battalion – Kilkenny:
a) A Company – Kilkenny:
b) B Company – Dunamaggin:
c) C Company – Ballyragget:
d) D Company – Waterford:
e) E Company – Portlaoise:
f) F Company – Durrow:
2. 10th Infantry Battalion “O’Hanrahan†– Wexford:
a) A Company – Wexford:
b) B Company – New Ross:
c) C Company – Carnew:
d) D Company – Muinebeag:
e) E Compnay – Carlow:
2. 6th Field Artillery Regiment – Kildare:
a) 5th Field Battery – Kildare: 6 25lber gun-howitzers
b) 6th Field Battery – Naas: 6 25lber gun-howitzers
c) 11th Heavy Mortar Battery – Edenderry: 6 120mm Brandt AM50 mortars
5. Forces Assigned To UN Duties:
a. UNIFIL Infantry Bn – Lebanon: Formed from elements of other units, includes 4 AML-90, 10 Sisu APC, 4 120mm Mortars.
Note 1: One of the Brigades has a third infantry battalion.
Note 2: Equipment holdings as of early 1990: 14 Scorpion, 19 AML-90, 32 AML-60, 60 Panhard VTT (Janes says 47), 10 Timoney APCs, 48 25pdr Field Guns, 12 105mm Light Guns, 400 81mm mortars, 72 120mm mortars, 21 MILAN launchers, 444 84mm Carl Gustav’s, 96 90mm PV-1110 RR (Finnish?), 24 Bofors 40L60 AA Guns, 2 40L70, 7 RBS-70 SAMs
Irish Air Corps
1. COIN Squadron: 6 CM-170-2 Super Magister
2. COIN/Training Squadron: 7 SF-260WE, 1 SF-260 MC, 2 SA-342L helos
3. Army Support Squadron: 8 SA-316B Helos
4. Other aircraft: 5 SA-365 in SAR, Naval roles, 7 F-172s in Liason role, 1 HS-125, 1 Super King Air 200
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Rainbow Six 08-31-2008, 07:15 AM I know that the canon states the Irish army to fight on behalf of the IRA and, actually, I respect it. In fact, this has very little chance to happen as the Irish Army, the Garda Siochana (Civil Police) and the British security forces were regularly engaged in joint security operations against IRA.
The Irish army seems to be well suited for police and security actions but it lacks offensive assets. However, it's not a conscript force with little skills and, in fact, it would have all it takes to face the Ulster Defence Regiment and probably defeat it quite quickly. It would be more difficult to destroy the IRA (because of its very nature).
Sorry, my bad when I referred to the UDR being accustomed to encountering Irish conscripts...I should have elaborated on that...I know that the RL Irish Army is a volunteer force...when I made that post earlier I was sort of assuming that by the time the Year 2000 comes around, most Armies are fielding a number of conscripts...apologies for not making that clear.
As to the Irish Army fighting on behalf of the IRA, I absolutely agree that would be so unlikely as to be virtually impossible. I think the canon view is more that the Irish Army intervene in the North not to support the IRA specifically but to support the Catholic minority population in general.
I'm not convinced that the Irish Army would quickly defeat the UDR though. Personally, I've always thought that if things played out as per canon it would be a very, very unpleasant conflict that could drag on for some time...much like the Balkans in the early - mid 90's (including ethnic cleansing and atrocities being committed by both sides).
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Mohoender 08-31-2008, 07:49 AM I'm not convinced that the Irish Army would quickly defeat the UDR though. Personally, I've always thought that if things played out as per canon it would be a very, very unpleasant conflict that could drag on for some time...much like the Balkans in the early - mid 90's (including ethnic cleansing and atrocities being committed by both sides).
My turn LOL. The UDR was not at full strength that's why I assumed it could be quickly defeated but, per the canon, I agree that it would be a nasty conflict.
What you said gave me some ideas on the things that could be changed. Thanks.
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Rainbow Six 08-31-2008, 07:59 AM My turn LOL. The UDR was not at full strength that's why I assumed it could be quickly defeated but, per the canon, I agree that it would be a nasty conflict.
What you said gave me some ideas on the things that could be changed. Thanks.
No problem. I'm fairly sure that canon does refer to the UDR carrying out conscription. There's also the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which I believe had a strength of around 12,000 (including Reserves) at the height of the Troubles.
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I have seen that Ireland got at least one nuke but I think that the country would be organized. Wouldn't the Irish try to take advantage of the general chaos in Ulster? The country was not modern as it is today but it still has some interesting asset especially in the Twilight world.
Switzerland is more interesting and the fact that it goes unoticed always stroke me. I would think that it entirely escaped the war for two reasons. It would be too costly to invade and (for the russians) you don't bomb your bank before withdrawing money. Then, I think that the country would influence the military balance at least slightly. Switzerland has a very good military industry (along with medical, food and high tech) and it would certainly still have electricity available. I'm sure it would be limited by ressources shortage but the country will probablly send supply to NATO and Germany (and why not to Russia itself through Austria).
Moreover, it's population would be more or less untouched and knowing the Swiss they would have quickly cut their borders to refugees (they have plenty of fortifications and crossing the mountains in the middle of a nuclear winter is hazardous at best). However, they would certainly care for those poor lads: what about the red cross? It might be active and it might still have what is needed for some relief actions.
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thefusilier 08-20-2008, 02:23 AM The Swiss are covered a little in main book. Its intact, secure, and safe. There is a black market along its borders but otherwise the best place to be.
Ireland did get involved with Ulster. Check out the 'UK Survivors Guide'.
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Mohoender 08-20-2008, 03:14 AM The Swiss are covered a little in main book. Its intact, secure, and safe. There is a black market along its borders but otherwise the best place to be.
Ireland did get involved with Ulster. Check out the 'UK Survivors Guide'.
True for Ireland, I forgot that. Still what would be the outcom as the country remain unspoiled in a way. Might not matter much so.
However, that's a all other story with the Swiss. I remember that it is the best place to be but I find this insufficient. With the position of France, the border will be open to some extend and some ressources will cross the border again. Moreover, the swiss will certainly sell stuff to whoever they can especially when everyone is exhausted and unable to do anything against it. I don't believe in the black market idea except if its managed by the state authorities. Black market will be only on the belligerents side. The red cross issue is also important. The sign might not protect them very well anymore but these guys are often ready to go anywhere and they might get backup from the swiss military when operating in countries that are close to their border. Moreover, the swiss will still play a large role in case of any negociation and they will be, as always, a transit place for intelligence operatives. :streit:
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Rainbow Six 08-20-2008, 10:16 AM True for Ireland, I forgot that. Still what would be the outcom as the country remain unspoiled in a way. Might not matter much so.
Not sure about it being unspoilt - I'm at work so don't have access to any material, but I seem to recall that Ireland (the Republic) was hit by some nuclear strikes?
Re: the Swiss, if I remember correctly isn't more or less every adult male householder in Switzerland technically in the Army Reserve and supposed to keep an assault rifle at home? So they're going to have one heck of a militia.
Personally, whilst I know that in Real Life the Swiss aren't big on joining international organisations, I wonder if in the circumstances of the Twilight World they'd consider some sort of alliance with the Franco Belgian Union for reasons of mutual convenience?
...might get backup from the swiss military when operating in countries that are close to their border...
I'm sure someone posted a while back about an adventure idea that involved encountering Swiss Guards in Poland...they were escorting the body of Pope John Paul II back to his native Krakow for burial.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-20-2008, 10:27 AM Switzerland has some satellite offices for the UN in Geneva or was in Zurich? I think it is Geneva. Since New York City, the parts that didn't get hammered as much is generally abandoned and left to gangs, a "rump UN" could still conduct business in Switzerland, however, what effect in the Twilight world would the UN be? A side note, an interesting adventure from a European (or other) perspective is to go to a post nuke US and rescue their UN diplomats.
Switzerland is much like the U.S., if you invade it, you'll find guns hiding behind every tree. IIRC, on one of the Morrow Project lists, one member talked to a sailor in the Soviet Navy when they stopped at Key West in 1990, the biggest fear of any Russian soldier is to be called upon to invade the U.S. He made the point that if it was a rural area, it would be farmers and hunters he would be up against and in the urban areas, the inner city gangs and The Mob would take care of the Russians.
Chuck M.
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thefusilier 08-20-2008, 11:04 AM Not sure about it being unspoilt - I'm at work so don't have access to any material, but I seem to recall that Ireland (the Republic) was hit by some nuclear strikes?
Bantry Bay is the only one listed. There is an oil terminal there.
Personally, whilst I know that in Real Life the Swiss aren't big on joining international organisations, I wonder if in the circumstances of the Twilight World they'd consider some sort of alliance with the Franco Belgian Union for reasons of mutual convenience?
That would probably negate their neutrality stance. Probably what saved them was staying out of the war completely. Not sure if they would risk that with something formal. Trade maybe, but that still is aiding someone's enemy.
Trivia... the Swiss also mined alot of their choke point bridges and tunnels for demolitions. This was something ongoing in the mid 80s at least. Blow the mountain passes to keep/slow the enemy. Charges already built into the structures or hollowed for quick placement.
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Mohoender 08-20-2008, 11:27 AM Indeed Bantry Bay is the only one listed, that's why I asked. Moreover, no army invaded Ireland and the Irish army despite being involved in Uster would be more or less intact. That leave us with a military weak country certainly not doing anything in term of military operations. However, I can imagine the Irish trading food and some minor goods with UK (actually I recall that the welsh were begining such trade). Moreover, the Irish navy can certainly police the area and the fishing fleet might be still operating, protected by these few Irisih patrol boat.
About the Swiss I don't imagine them being involved really with anyside but the UN idea is a good one. I imagine them remaining neutral until everyone being exhausted but at some point they might start trading. In the cannon, I always found that germany retained a very strong army (compared to others) and plenty of armor. To do this, you need spare parts and the German controlled territory is all near the Swiss border. I wouldn't find so surprising to have the Swiss selling military equipments in exchange for raw materials (various ressources could still be exploited in the German controlled areas). Same with the french. Of course, that would be helping one side but at a time when no one can respond anymore, why would they care? They might also be the starting point of some reconstrution process for the surrounding countries. Don't you think? Selling medical gears or furnishing chemical compounds seem also to be an option.
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Rainbow Six 08-20-2008, 11:42 AM Indeed Bantry Bay is the only one listed, that's why I asked. Moreover, no army invaded Ireland and the Irish army despite being involved in Uster would be more or less intact. That leave us with a military weak country certainly not doing anything in term of military operations. However, I can imagine the Irish trading food and some minor goods with UK (actually I recall that the welsh were begining such trade). Moreover, the Irish navy can certainly police the area and the fishing fleet might be still operating, protected by these few Irisih patrol boat.
Technically not entirely accurate to say no one invaded, as canon has the British Army invading the Irish Republic (UKSG iirc makes reference to the Battle of Drogheda).
Would agree that there's certainly potential for a fairly lively trade with parts of the UK though...
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Mohoender 08-20-2008, 12:47 PM Technically not entirely accurate to say no one invaded, as canon has the British Army invading the Irish Republic (UKSG iirc makes reference to the Battle of Drogheda).
Would agree that there's certainly potential for a fairly lively trade with parts of the UK though...
Thanks, I didn't know that or didn't see it. Therefore, the involvement was much bigger that what I thought.
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Mohoender 08-28-2008, 02:27 PM I have read the surviving guide to UK again today and found couple of things on Ireland. Actually, the fighting was not very hard and most of the country is certainly intact especially as UK had no air power to deploy.
Then, I checked on how Ireland make electricity. Most of it is made by coal and fuel plants (these are out), then, it has some kind of wind power and that might still be working (very small production at the time). More important, it relies on Peat Power Plants and these will certainly be working. Therefore, the country will certainly has access to some electricity (a rare thing in twilight) and various industries might well be in working order. I also can imagine Ireland being in the process of building new Peat Power Plants.
Another question, what about Peat Power Plants elsewhere?
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Hangfire7 08-28-2008, 03:49 PM I actualy did have the Swiss in a short campaign back when I had a face to face group circa 1990/91 where the Swiss were making forays out into Europe. I even wrote up a deck of encounter cards and had several of them dealing with the Swiss. Basicaly the Swiss wanted to expand some of their terrirory, reclaiming some of their debts and some of the local areas bordering Switzerland wanted to join with Switzerland and became protectorates. So the PCs could encounter intelligence agents, negotiators and such as well as actual armed patrols of the Swiss Army who were basicaly turning the area adjacent to their border into a demilitarized zone. The idea was they didn't want the beligerent powers brining their war to them.
And all of this was inspired by reading a gun magazine that had some cool swiss weapons in them ;)
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TiggerCCW UK 08-29-2008, 04:38 AM Then, I checked on how Ireland make electricity. Most of it is made by coal and fuel plants (these are out), then, it has some kind of wind power and that might still be working (very small production at the time). More important, it relies on Peat Power Plants and these will certainly be working. Therefore, the country will certainly has access to some electricity (a rare thing in twilight) and various industries might well be in working order. I also can imagine Ireland being in the process of building new Peat Power Plants.
I've been to one of the areas where they harvest the peat for the power plants and its huge and very heavily mechanised, so I'm not sure how much they would be able to gather or how much the plants need, so I think the available electricity would be very limited. Its essentially done on the same sort of scale as coal mining, so its a very big operation.
Heres the website for the main peat producers;
http://www.bnm.ie/corporate/index.jsp
If you look up 'Clonmacnoise' on Google maps the huge red areas that you can see are the peat beds where they harvest the peat, it'll give an idea of the size of the operation.
Small scale local peat use would be widespread though, and something that hadn't occurred to me - good catch.
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chico20854 08-29-2008, 09:27 AM The Swiss are covered a little in main book. Its intact, secure, and safe. There is a black market along its borders but otherwise the best place to be.
The one thing that will prevent both Ireland & Switzerland from carrying on a "business as usual" approach is the lack of petroleum products. The Swiss are self-sufficient for electricity (4 nuclear power plants plus a bunch of hydroelectric plants). They'll still need lubricants for their machinery and petroleum for their transportation network (other than electric-powered trains). Maybe they'd set up a trading alliance with the Franco-Belgian Union, exchanging electrical power and manufactured products for a share of the petroleum France is receiving from the Persian Gulf region.
I don't see much potential for Swiss trade with occupied Austria or war-ravaged Germany and Italy. Sure, there might be some small-scale trading, but the combatant nations are just too torn up to offer much of use to a more or less intact Switzerland.
As for Ireland, the lack of petroleum would be different. There were many areas of the Republic that didn't get connected to the electrical grid until the 1970s, and the loss of agricultural production from reversion to animal powered agriculture (never entirely absent) would probably be offset by the loss of population. So Ireland might very well be in a position to export surplus food, and the trade across the Irish Sea would fit the bill very well IMHO.
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Mohoender 08-29-2008, 10:30 AM I've been to one of the areas where they harvest the peat for the power plants and its huge and very heavily mechanised, so I'm not sure how much they would be able to gather or how much the plants need, so I think the available electricity would be very limited. Its essentially done on the same sort of scale as coal mining, so its a very big operation.
Heres the website for the main peat producers;
http://www.bnm.ie/corporate/index.jsp
If you look up 'Clonmacnoise' on Google maps the huge red areas that you can see are the peat beds where they harvest the peat, it'll give an idea of the size of the operation.
Small scale local peat use would be widespread though, and something that hadn't occurred to me - good catch.
Thanks for all these informations. I take the occasion to send the website (pdf) of an estimation about oil shale deposits
http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2005/5294/pdf/sir5294_508.pdf
The canon talk about it when describing Estonia and I hope that might interest someone.
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boogiedowndonovan 08-29-2008, 11:54 AM The Swiss are self-sufficient for electricity (4 nuclear power plants plus a bunch of hydroelectric plants). .
I'm no expert on nukes, but wouldn't EMP knock out the Swiss powerplants (and France/Belgium's for that matter?)
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Mohoender 08-29-2008, 12:25 PM I'm no expert on nukes, but wouldn't EMP knock out the Swiss powerplants (and France/Belgium's for that matter?)
I think you are right but as Switzerland remains intact, they will certainly have what is needed to repair them (at least some of them). That will certainly be the case also in France and Belgium. It will take some time but less for the Swiss, nevertheless.
I would think that they would repair the hydro power plants first and they might forget about the nuclear ones.
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Rainbow Six 08-30-2008, 04:07 AM On the subject of Ireland, canon refers to a breakout of Warsaw Pact prisoners from their POW camp in South West England.
I'd suggest it's feasable that some of those prisoners might try and make it by boat to the nearest neutral Country - i.e. the Republic of Ireland. Upon arrival in the Republic, the Irish could then extend to them the option of 'unofficially' joining the Irish Army. The Soviets get an Irish uniform, three meals a day, somewhere to sleep at night, and the promise of (an eventual) return to the Motherland. The Irish get a cadre of highly trained and experienced personnel to augment their armed forces.
I wouldn't envisage that there would be great numbers of Soviets who'd make it across the Irish Sea, perhaps no more than a hundred, but could you imagine the surprise of the Ulster Defence Regiment men who have been fighting Irish conscripts and suddenly find themselves up against Spetsnaz and Soviet Airborne veterans of the Norwegian Campaign (or survivors of the Polish 6th Pomeranians)...
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Mohoender 08-30-2008, 08:54 AM I know that the canon states the Irish army to fight on behalf of the IRA and, actually, I respect it. In fact, this has very little chance to happen as the Irish Army, the Garda Siochana (Civil Police) and the British security forces were regularly engaged in joint security operations against IRA.
However, I can imagine more easily that the Irish army would engage occasionaly some British pursuing forces and I would assume the IRA to draw more volunteers on because of the general chaos but it would be facing problems in getting supplies.
The Irish army seems to be well suited for police and security actions but it lacks offensive assets. However, it's not a conscript force with little skills and, in fact, it would have all it takes to face the Ulster Defence Regiment and probably defeat it quite quickly. It would be more difficult to destroy the IRA (because of its very nature).
Here is its supposed composition at the time of Twilight 2000 (compiled from what I could find).
Irish defence Force (Óglaigh na h-Eireann)
Regular volunteers: 13000 (3 years minimum term).
Reserve: 16000
It is organised into Eastern Command (HQ Dublin), Curragh Command (HQ Curragh), Southern Command (HQ Cork) and Western Command (HQ Athlone).
It can be organized into 4 Brigades and consists of:
- 11 infantry battalions.
- 1 Ranger company.
- 1 Tank squadron (scorpion light tank).
- 1 Recce squadron (Panhard AML60/AML90; AML60 were upgraded to AML20).
- 3 Artillery regiments (105mm Light Guns).
- 1 Independent artillery battery (may be 25-pdr as I suspect it to an honour unit).
- 1 Air defence regiment (Bofors L/70 and RBS-70 SAM).
- 3 Engineer companies.
An Forsa Cosanta Aituil (FCA/second line reserve): 22000 with 15000 engaged in active training.
- 18 infantry battalions.
- 3 Armored Cav squadron (Panhard VTT M3 & Timoney APC; since repalced by MOWAG Piranha III).
- 6 Artillery regiments (25-pdr).
- 3 Air defence batteries (probably Bofors L/70, may be L/60).
- 3 Engineer squadrons.
They also use the Carl Gustav and the MILAN AT missile (now replace by AT-4 and Javelin) as well as the browning 50 (FN), and they are equipped with 60/81mm mortars, M203 grenade launchers, AI 96 sniper rifles, FN MAG and Steyr AUG (it seems that they also had MP-5 but I'm not sure about that one). They have several mobile radar systems. Engineers are using Aardvark Mine clearing equipment and the Doking MV4 that is designed for urban areas.
Its air force is small, however, and consist mostly of small aircraft. It is part of the Army
Order of Battle (taken from Aeroflight, it can be somewhat inaccurate):
The main base is at Baldonnel (Dublin). They have several secondary bases but I have been unable to identify them.
Wing Squadron(the numbers are the delivered aircrafts)
1 Operations Wing
101 Squadron: 3 CN.235
102 Squadron: 3 Beech 200, 1 Gulfsteam III, 1 Gulfstream IV*
104 Squadron: 8 Cessna FR.172H/K (10 max)
3 Operations Wing
301 Squadron: 3 SA.365F Dolphin, 4 Alouette III
302 Squadron: 2 SA.365F Dolphin, 4 Alouette III
303 Squadron: 2 SA.342L Gazelle
4 and 5 Operations Wing are support wings and they have a CIS squadron (communication).
Air Corps College
Flying Training Schoo:l 15 SF-260W Warrior and 7 Fouga Magister jet trainer.
The navy had 2 Small Patrol Corvette, 4 offshore patrol vessels, and operates 11 Westland Lynx.
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chico20854 08-30-2008, 09:52 AM The NATO orbat on Tank-net (at microarmormayhem (http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc)
has the following orbat for the Irish Army & Air Force: (it also has the Swiss, Swedes, Austrians & Finns)
1. Southern Command
a. 1st Brigade – Cork:
1. 2 Infantry Bns, each: 2 Rifle Cos, Support Co.
2. 1 Cavalry Recon Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regt
4. 1 Engineer Co
b. FCA Group, Southern Command – Cork:
1. 6 Infantry Battalions
2. 1 Motorised Reconnaissance Squadron
3. 2 Field Artillery Regiments
4. 2 Air Defence Batteries
5. 1 Field Engineer Company
2. Eastern Command
a. 2nd Brigade – Dublin:
1. 2 Infantry Bns, each: 2 Rifle Cos, Support Co.
2. 1 Cavalry Recon Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regt
4. 1 Engineer Co
b. Eastern Command Infantry Force – Gormanston: 2 Infantry Bns (may have been under command of Curragh group)
1. 27th Infantry Battalion – Dundalk:
2. 29th Infantry Battalion – Cootehill: Had 5 Timoney Mk IV APCs
c. FCA Group, Eastern Command – Dublin:
1. 4 Infantry Battalions
2. 1 Motorised Reconnaissance Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regiment
4. 1 Air Defence Battery
5. 1 Field Engineer Company
3. Western Command
a. 4th Brigade – Athlone:
1. 2 Infantry Bns, each: 2 Rifle Cos, Support Co.
2. 1 Cavalry Recon Squadron
3. 1 Field Artillery Regt
4. 1 Engineer Co
b. 28th Infantry Battalion (Reinforced) – Finner Camp, Bundoran:
c. FCA Group, Western Command – Athlone:
1. 6 Infantry Battalions
2. 1 Motorised Reconnaissance Squadron
3. 2 Field Artillery Regiments
4. 1 Field Engineer Company
4. Curragh Command
a. 6th Brigade – Curragh Camp, County Kildare:
1. 3rd Infantry Battalion – Curragh: (includes 1 motor co w/12 AML VTTs)
2. 30th Infantry Battalion – Kilkenny:
2. 1st Armored Recon Squadron – Curragh: 4 AML H-90, 6 AML H-60, 3 AML VTT
3. 3rd Field Artillery Battery: 6 105mm Light Guns
b. Army Ranger Unit – Curragh Camp:
c. 1st Tank Squadron – Curragh Camp: 14 CVR(T) Scorpions
d. 1st Air Defense Regiment – Curragh Camp: 1 Regular, 3 FCA Air Defense Batteries. 6 40mm AA guns, 4 RBS-70 SAMs.
e. FCA Group Curragh Command – Curragh:
1. 9th Infantry Battalion – Kilkenny:
a) A Company – Kilkenny:
b) B Company – Dunamaggin:
c) C Company – Ballyragget:
d) D Company – Waterford:
e) E Company – Portlaoise:
f) F Company – Durrow:
2. 10th Infantry Battalion “O’Hanrahan†– Wexford:
a) A Company – Wexford:
b) B Company – New Ross:
c) C Company – Carnew:
d) D Company – Muinebeag:
e) E Compnay – Carlow:
2. 6th Field Artillery Regiment – Kildare:
a) 5th Field Battery – Kildare: 6 25lber gun-howitzers
b) 6th Field Battery – Naas: 6 25lber gun-howitzers
c) 11th Heavy Mortar Battery – Edenderry: 6 120mm Brandt AM50 mortars
5. Forces Assigned To UN Duties:
a. UNIFIL Infantry Bn – Lebanon: Formed from elements of other units, includes 4 AML-90, 10 Sisu APC, 4 120mm Mortars.
Note 1: One of the Brigades has a third infantry battalion.
Note 2: Equipment holdings as of early 1990: 14 Scorpion, 19 AML-90, 32 AML-60, 60 Panhard VTT (Janes says 47), 10 Timoney APCs, 48 25pdr Field Guns, 12 105mm Light Guns, 400 81mm mortars, 72 120mm mortars, 21 MILAN launchers, 444 84mm Carl Gustav’s, 96 90mm PV-1110 RR (Finnish?), 24 Bofors 40L60 AA Guns, 2 40L70, 7 RBS-70 SAMs
Irish Air Corps
1. COIN Squadron: 6 CM-170-2 Super Magister
2. COIN/Training Squadron: 7 SF-260WE, 1 SF-260 MC, 2 SA-342L helos
3. Army Support Squadron: 8 SA-316B Helos
4. Other aircraft: 5 SA-365 in SAR, Naval roles, 7 F-172s in Liason role, 1 HS-125, 1 Super King Air 200
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Rainbow Six 08-31-2008, 07:15 AM I know that the canon states the Irish army to fight on behalf of the IRA and, actually, I respect it. In fact, this has very little chance to happen as the Irish Army, the Garda Siochana (Civil Police) and the British security forces were regularly engaged in joint security operations against IRA.
The Irish army seems to be well suited for police and security actions but it lacks offensive assets. However, it's not a conscript force with little skills and, in fact, it would have all it takes to face the Ulster Defence Regiment and probably defeat it quite quickly. It would be more difficult to destroy the IRA (because of its very nature).
Sorry, my bad when I referred to the UDR being accustomed to encountering Irish conscripts...I should have elaborated on that...I know that the RL Irish Army is a volunteer force...when I made that post earlier I was sort of assuming that by the time the Year 2000 comes around, most Armies are fielding a number of conscripts...apologies for not making that clear.
As to the Irish Army fighting on behalf of the IRA, I absolutely agree that would be so unlikely as to be virtually impossible. I think the canon view is more that the Irish Army intervene in the North not to support the IRA specifically but to support the Catholic minority population in general.
I'm not convinced that the Irish Army would quickly defeat the UDR though. Personally, I've always thought that if things played out as per canon it would be a very, very unpleasant conflict that could drag on for some time...much like the Balkans in the early - mid 90's (including ethnic cleansing and atrocities being committed by both sides).
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Mohoender 08-31-2008, 07:49 AM I'm not convinced that the Irish Army would quickly defeat the UDR though. Personally, I've always thought that if things played out as per canon it would be a very, very unpleasant conflict that could drag on for some time...much like the Balkans in the early - mid 90's (including ethnic cleansing and atrocities being committed by both sides).
My turn LOL. The UDR was not at full strength that's why I assumed it could be quickly defeated but, per the canon, I agree that it would be a nasty conflict.
What you said gave me some ideas on the things that could be changed. Thanks.
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Rainbow Six 08-31-2008, 07:59 AM My turn LOL. The UDR was not at full strength that's why I assumed it could be quickly defeated but, per the canon, I agree that it would be a nasty conflict.
What you said gave me some ideas on the things that could be changed. Thanks.
No problem. I'm fairly sure that canon does refer to the UDR carrying out conscription. There's also the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which I believe had a strength of around 12,000 (including Reserves) at the height of the Troubles.
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