kato13
01-22-2010, 12:11 AM
Antenna 06-21-2005, 05:17 PM Well, there is no real rule for Match ammo with the plain and ordinary ammo for T2k ....
If you would make a rule for match ammo (that is x4 expensiver according to FF&S) what would it look like ?
Myself has no real clue more then you want this type of ammo when you going to shoot at large distances becouse it has a better MOA or what ever it is called.
So those of you that has some ideas on a rule or advice to make a rule just enlighten us about this thing called MATCH ammo.
Antenna
********************
ReHerakhte 06-22-2005, 07:13 AM Basically, match grade ammo is superior quality ammo and it's performance suffers little to no variation from shot to shot.
Even if you aren't shooting at long range and just shooting at medium ranges, match grade ammo is still worth using because it is more precise, hence the better MOA (Minute Of Angle from memory). A better MOA basically means the group of hits covers a much smaller area on the target so instead of having say a 7-inch spread of hits across the target with standard ammo, you may have less than a 3-inch spread across the target when using match grade ammo, (when using the same weapon and ammo configuration).
Match grade ammunition differs from standard grade ammo mainly because match grade stuff is made with the best components and with the goal of making every single round perform exactly the same as each other. This way the shooter knows that each match grade bullet he uses will perform like the last match grade bullet he used of the same calibre.
Many factories typically hand make these rounds taking the greatest possible care so that they make the rounds identical to each other in every way.
Standard ammunition is pumped out by machines in the hundreds of thousands and there can be many slight variations from one round of 7.62mmN on the production line to the next 7.62mmN round for example. This means that there may be small differences in case weight, projectile shape, powder charge and so on. For normal military and civilian use these differences are not really a problem as most shooters are aiming at the centre of seen mass but for marksmen, centre of seen mass (which is usually the chest area) isn't always the best place to shoot for various reasons (target is wearing body armour, most of body protected by cover etc or for police use, there may be a hostage in front of the criminal etc.)
I think for game rules, Match Grade ammo should basically increase the chance to hit the target however it doesn't imply an increase in total range. It might give you an extra +2 to Hit for example, which is nothing at close ranges but makes some difference at longer ranges.
As for cost, 4x more expensive sounds about right.
All this is from memory, I haven't checked any of my books so if anyone has an explanation that doesn't take as long as mine please feel free to jump in!
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
Red2 06-22-2005, 04:07 PM Another thing to consider is whether the weapon would benefit from using a match grade round. Only a weapon made to tight tolerances (precision grade work) will benefit from such ammo...an AK-47 would not gain any increase (it is designed to feed any 7.62B regardless of ammo quality and in any condition), while a G-3SG1 (a squad marksman rifle selected from the standard production line because it tested to a higher quality than others of its lot) would gain a small increase and a custom McMillan rifle hand built and designed for accuracy would earn a bigger bonus due to it's precision construction.
In the last case with the precision rifle, you may want to impose a penalty for using standard ammo...some of the precision weapons can be demanding about the type of ammo you feed it, sometimes even the brand of ammo can lead to a degradation of accuracy (even though the ammo is supposed to be identical)
wow, I got a little long-winded too.
********************
ReHerakhte 06-23-2005, 04:19 AM I was thinking some more about this thread at work today and something I forgot to mention was that Match Grade gets its name from its original purpose, as a high precision ammunition for shooting matches. It was designed for civilian precision shooting but the police and military were quick to see the benefits so now most snipers and counter-snipers use nothing but match grade ammo along with precision marksman's rifles as Red mentioned.
Something to consider though, I just read an article about USMC scout/snipers in Iraq today (hence my thinking about this thread again) and they mentioned that they had many more targets than anticipated and at one point during their deployment to Fallujah, they had used up all their match grade 7.62mmN, they were forced to resort to delinking 7.62mmN machinegun belts to get more ammo while they waited for resupply.
How many rounds of match grade did they carry and how much time did it take to use it all up? A whole lot less than you'd probably expect for ammo and time. The four man team had two 7.62mmN sniper rifles and for April 6th 2004 they fired about 40 rounds each through both rifles breaking up three RPG ambushes and scoring two confirmed kills and three probables.
So the answer is 80 rounds of match grade ammo and that one day in Fallujah saw them use it all.
Snipers simply don't carry hundreds of rounds of match grade ammo with them, unlike a rifleman who might very well carry 300 rounds and more of standard ammo for his assault rifle. Match grade ammo is precision made and therefore more expensive so it is typically supplied in small quantities, you don't buy it by the crate load. This all means that there isn't a lot of it on the battlefield as it just isn't made in the quantities that standard ammunition is. So after the Twilight War, match grade ammo is going to be very hard to find.
The FFS price of 4x normal price is probably good for use in Merc: 2000 or Dark Conspiracy but for Twilight: 2000, the price could be a hell of a lot higher depending on how much someone wanted it.
It might be worth using an increasing cost as time passes and the ability to manufacture match grade ammo is slowly lost so that at the start of the Twilight War, price is 4x cost then as 2000 passes into 2001 and the bulk of the manufacturing facilities are lost, the cost could go as high as 5-6x normal cost. After a few more years have passed, the price for the increasingly rare match grade ammunition may be as high as 8-10x normal cost.
Some things to consider, you PC team has a few personnel with good shooting skills, they have the typical mix of assault rifles and a few other items such as SMGs and MGs but they also possess a G3/SG1.
Is it worth them paying such a high price for match grade ammo? If the match grade ammo can achieve a kill with one shot (in game terms, think the Critical Hit/Quick Kill rule from Version 2.2, page 210 - see below for explanation) while it takes an assault rifle three or four shots, are they saving money by using the match grade? Especially considering that they may be using reloaded ammo for their assault rifles.
I think these sorts of questions all depend on how the PCs conduct their operations, for example do they even use snipers/marksmen?
It might be worth giving match grade ammo better Hit chances depending on the weapon used so that, for example, 7.62mmN Match Grade through a normal FN FAL gives no measurable bonus to Hit while through a H&K G3/SG1 it gives a +2 to Hit and through a custom built McMillan designed for precision sniping it could give +4 to Hit (just to steal even more from Red's post!)
For those without access to the Twilight: 2000 2.2 book, the Critical Hit/Quick Kill works as follows (basically an update of the Merc: 2000 rule): -
Any aimed shot which hits head or chest may constitute a killing shot. Roll a D20 - if the roll is less than or equal to the damage value of the shot, the target is instantly killed except on a roll of 20 exactly.
If the hit was scored on an area protected by armour, roll versus the remaining damage of the round after penetration, if any.
For automatic fire, roll only once per turn (regardless of the number of shots that hit)
It should be stressed that GDW stated that this rule should only be applied to NPCs and that PCs should instead suffer double damage instead of a killing shot.
It also pays to remember that any Outstanding success in firearms combat doubles the damage of a shot (Ver 2.2, page 209).
But enough random wanderings from me, I think I have thought far too much about it all without coming up with a good solution!
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TR 06-26-2005, 06:10 PM Cost to make really is a relevant term, there are more than enough reloading benches across the world that someone could sit down of an evening and crank out match grade ammunition if they wanted to... realistically this is how a lot of this got started in that competition shooters for years have handmade their own loads for superior ballisitics, range, etc.
I would agree weapon quality is a huge factor in this equation, you can load a common garden firearm with match grade ammo and might not see any difference in that the barrel, action of the weapon and it's inherent accuracy help to determine overall accuracy. So loading match grade ammo into a Jennings 22 Long Rifle automatic and expecting to hit out to 100 Yards with supreme accuracy every time is asking a lot of the weapon and ammo.
********************
ReHerakhte 06-27-2005, 03:46 AM I don't disagree with you TR on the aspect of expense being a relative aspect as the majority of ammunition for purchase by the PCs after a given time probably consists of reloaded more than factory produced, every significant military post probably has reloading facilities for small arms to an extent and every major population centre would see the potential profit in providing reloading services... however, I would argue that the number of quality items required to make match grade ammo would be severely diminished.
Cases wouldn't be so much of a problem because you would recycle them but with the number of places that can actually manufacture the high quality projectiles and powder much lower than pre-war (and they would probably have more demand to produce standard ammo), you just aren't going to have as many components left to reload match grade ammo with.
Along with possible loss of manufacturing facilities for the individual components, there would probably be significant losses in personnel who know how to use the quality control apparatus for match grade ammo as well, thereby reducing the skill base and I would suspect that those civilian match shooters reloading their own would probably keep their best stuff for their own use.
At least, that was my line of thinking when I was writing up the cost aspects!
Still, as food for thought, it could make for an interesting adventure, having the PCs hunt down equipment, tools and supplies etc. to allow some community to produce bulk quantities of match grade ammo... if some group got a monopoly on production, they could make some big profits. Other groups might pay the PCs to "not find" the gear!
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
Twilight2000V3 07-06-2005, 10:30 AM Everyone has a good point. This is my take on it.
Lets take a look at a the stats for most 7.62mmN sniper rifles in Twilight. The range on them is listed as 75(m).
No Scope Scope/Bipod (or prone)
Short 75m 100m
Medium 150m 200m
Long 300m 400m
Extreme 600m 800m
Remember that a scope gives you the ability to see targets at that range. It does nothing for the effective range of the caliber. The bipod rule of 10 meters isnt in the rule books but the M21 has a listed range of 85 with a bipod so lets use it. The bipod just steadies the weapon for better aim.
The maximum effective range for a 7.62mmN sniper rifle is 800m. That is one hell of a shot from a military or police grade field rifle. Im sure there are 7.62mmN rifles out there that can easily hit targets at farther ranges but they are finiky and fragile. From what I know most police snipers practice at ranges no more than 200m and I think Army snipers practice at no more than 600m. You have to have phenominal optics to hit human-sized targets at 800m. I thinkn the standard military sniper rifles have a 4.5-14x40mm scope while police usually have a 3-9x40mm scope.
In my opinion, in order for sniper systems in the T2K game to have this range you MUST shoot match grade ammo. Otherwise the range should be 65m for a 7.62mmN round. The round "can physically get there" but how accurate will it be? At 500m the front sight on an M-16 basically covers a man sized target. I had my idiot brother-in-law try hitting a deer at about 700 meters with his 7mm mag hunting rifle with a 3-9x40 scope... 11 shots later he did hit it... (dumb ass)... and that was a deer that was NOT moving at all. And he was using good factory hunting ammo.
Yes "match grade ammo" is fairly easy to load. All you need is some calipers a very accurate scale, dies and a press (well, and ammo components too). As long as the weight of the bullet, the case length, the overall ammo length, and powder ammount at VERY consistant then you will have good ammo. Ideally you load the ammo for the rifle. Its somewhat easy just time consuming.
Just for S&G I came up with these stats:
(listed with scope and bipod(prone)
300 Win mag sniper system
Range: 110/220/440/880
DAM: 4
PEN: 1-2-3
RCL: 5
Max
********************
TiggerCCW UK 07-06-2005, 04:05 PM When I was in the cadet force we used a rifle designated L81A1, which was a modified Parker Hale M82. It had no magazine and was breach loading single shot. With this rifle, no bipod, standard ball ammunition and competition iron sights we would regularly shoot from 600 - 1000 yds. I appreciate that this is not combat shooting, but it shows what can be done.
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-bin/res.pl?keyword=L81A1&offset=0
********************
TR 07-06-2005, 07:21 PM I think the best example of what can be done with the 7.62 NATO cartridge is a case during the Viet Nam War regarding a US Army Sniper operating in the Mekong Delta, Sgt Adelbert Waldron III of the 9th Infantry Division...
Our most successful sniper was Sergeant Adelbert F. Waldron III, who had 109 confirmed kills to his credit. One afternoon he was riding along the Mekong River on a Tango boat when an enemy sniper on shore pecked away at the boat. While everyone else on board strained to find the antagonist, who was firing from the shoreline over 900 meters away, Sergeant Waldron took up his sniper rifle and picked off the Vietcong out of the top of a coconut tree with one shot (this from a moving platform). Such was the capability of our best sniper. We had others, too, with his matchless vision and expert marksmanship.
Inside the Crosshairs: Snipers in Vietnam
Col. Michael Lee Lanning
********************
Twilight2000V3 07-07-2005, 11:19 AM Hitting a man sized target at 600-800 yards witha good target rifle is not easy but can be done (oviously). But its not easy. I think what I was getting at was the 1/2 MOA standard on sniper systems. At 800 meters a sniper grade weapon will make groups of 4" consistantly (in theory). A sniper grade sytem with non-match ammo should probabbly have a 1 to 2 MOA or getting 8' to 16" goups at that range. That WILL hit a man sized target at that range but.....
Than again a good shooter will compensate for bad/inferior equipment.
Max
********************
If you would make a rule for match ammo (that is x4 expensiver according to FF&S) what would it look like ?
Myself has no real clue more then you want this type of ammo when you going to shoot at large distances becouse it has a better MOA or what ever it is called.
So those of you that has some ideas on a rule or advice to make a rule just enlighten us about this thing called MATCH ammo.
Antenna
********************
ReHerakhte 06-22-2005, 07:13 AM Basically, match grade ammo is superior quality ammo and it's performance suffers little to no variation from shot to shot.
Even if you aren't shooting at long range and just shooting at medium ranges, match grade ammo is still worth using because it is more precise, hence the better MOA (Minute Of Angle from memory). A better MOA basically means the group of hits covers a much smaller area on the target so instead of having say a 7-inch spread of hits across the target with standard ammo, you may have less than a 3-inch spread across the target when using match grade ammo, (when using the same weapon and ammo configuration).
Match grade ammunition differs from standard grade ammo mainly because match grade stuff is made with the best components and with the goal of making every single round perform exactly the same as each other. This way the shooter knows that each match grade bullet he uses will perform like the last match grade bullet he used of the same calibre.
Many factories typically hand make these rounds taking the greatest possible care so that they make the rounds identical to each other in every way.
Standard ammunition is pumped out by machines in the hundreds of thousands and there can be many slight variations from one round of 7.62mmN on the production line to the next 7.62mmN round for example. This means that there may be small differences in case weight, projectile shape, powder charge and so on. For normal military and civilian use these differences are not really a problem as most shooters are aiming at the centre of seen mass but for marksmen, centre of seen mass (which is usually the chest area) isn't always the best place to shoot for various reasons (target is wearing body armour, most of body protected by cover etc or for police use, there may be a hostage in front of the criminal etc.)
I think for game rules, Match Grade ammo should basically increase the chance to hit the target however it doesn't imply an increase in total range. It might give you an extra +2 to Hit for example, which is nothing at close ranges but makes some difference at longer ranges.
As for cost, 4x more expensive sounds about right.
All this is from memory, I haven't checked any of my books so if anyone has an explanation that doesn't take as long as mine please feel free to jump in!
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
Red2 06-22-2005, 04:07 PM Another thing to consider is whether the weapon would benefit from using a match grade round. Only a weapon made to tight tolerances (precision grade work) will benefit from such ammo...an AK-47 would not gain any increase (it is designed to feed any 7.62B regardless of ammo quality and in any condition), while a G-3SG1 (a squad marksman rifle selected from the standard production line because it tested to a higher quality than others of its lot) would gain a small increase and a custom McMillan rifle hand built and designed for accuracy would earn a bigger bonus due to it's precision construction.
In the last case with the precision rifle, you may want to impose a penalty for using standard ammo...some of the precision weapons can be demanding about the type of ammo you feed it, sometimes even the brand of ammo can lead to a degradation of accuracy (even though the ammo is supposed to be identical)
wow, I got a little long-winded too.
********************
ReHerakhte 06-23-2005, 04:19 AM I was thinking some more about this thread at work today and something I forgot to mention was that Match Grade gets its name from its original purpose, as a high precision ammunition for shooting matches. It was designed for civilian precision shooting but the police and military were quick to see the benefits so now most snipers and counter-snipers use nothing but match grade ammo along with precision marksman's rifles as Red mentioned.
Something to consider though, I just read an article about USMC scout/snipers in Iraq today (hence my thinking about this thread again) and they mentioned that they had many more targets than anticipated and at one point during their deployment to Fallujah, they had used up all their match grade 7.62mmN, they were forced to resort to delinking 7.62mmN machinegun belts to get more ammo while they waited for resupply.
How many rounds of match grade did they carry and how much time did it take to use it all up? A whole lot less than you'd probably expect for ammo and time. The four man team had two 7.62mmN sniper rifles and for April 6th 2004 they fired about 40 rounds each through both rifles breaking up three RPG ambushes and scoring two confirmed kills and three probables.
So the answer is 80 rounds of match grade ammo and that one day in Fallujah saw them use it all.
Snipers simply don't carry hundreds of rounds of match grade ammo with them, unlike a rifleman who might very well carry 300 rounds and more of standard ammo for his assault rifle. Match grade ammo is precision made and therefore more expensive so it is typically supplied in small quantities, you don't buy it by the crate load. This all means that there isn't a lot of it on the battlefield as it just isn't made in the quantities that standard ammunition is. So after the Twilight War, match grade ammo is going to be very hard to find.
The FFS price of 4x normal price is probably good for use in Merc: 2000 or Dark Conspiracy but for Twilight: 2000, the price could be a hell of a lot higher depending on how much someone wanted it.
It might be worth using an increasing cost as time passes and the ability to manufacture match grade ammo is slowly lost so that at the start of the Twilight War, price is 4x cost then as 2000 passes into 2001 and the bulk of the manufacturing facilities are lost, the cost could go as high as 5-6x normal cost. After a few more years have passed, the price for the increasingly rare match grade ammunition may be as high as 8-10x normal cost.
Some things to consider, you PC team has a few personnel with good shooting skills, they have the typical mix of assault rifles and a few other items such as SMGs and MGs but they also possess a G3/SG1.
Is it worth them paying such a high price for match grade ammo? If the match grade ammo can achieve a kill with one shot (in game terms, think the Critical Hit/Quick Kill rule from Version 2.2, page 210 - see below for explanation) while it takes an assault rifle three or four shots, are they saving money by using the match grade? Especially considering that they may be using reloaded ammo for their assault rifles.
I think these sorts of questions all depend on how the PCs conduct their operations, for example do they even use snipers/marksmen?
It might be worth giving match grade ammo better Hit chances depending on the weapon used so that, for example, 7.62mmN Match Grade through a normal FN FAL gives no measurable bonus to Hit while through a H&K G3/SG1 it gives a +2 to Hit and through a custom built McMillan designed for precision sniping it could give +4 to Hit (just to steal even more from Red's post!)
For those without access to the Twilight: 2000 2.2 book, the Critical Hit/Quick Kill works as follows (basically an update of the Merc: 2000 rule): -
Any aimed shot which hits head or chest may constitute a killing shot. Roll a D20 - if the roll is less than or equal to the damage value of the shot, the target is instantly killed except on a roll of 20 exactly.
If the hit was scored on an area protected by armour, roll versus the remaining damage of the round after penetration, if any.
For automatic fire, roll only once per turn (regardless of the number of shots that hit)
It should be stressed that GDW stated that this rule should only be applied to NPCs and that PCs should instead suffer double damage instead of a killing shot.
It also pays to remember that any Outstanding success in firearms combat doubles the damage of a shot (Ver 2.2, page 209).
But enough random wanderings from me, I think I have thought far too much about it all without coming up with a good solution!
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TR 06-26-2005, 06:10 PM Cost to make really is a relevant term, there are more than enough reloading benches across the world that someone could sit down of an evening and crank out match grade ammunition if they wanted to... realistically this is how a lot of this got started in that competition shooters for years have handmade their own loads for superior ballisitics, range, etc.
I would agree weapon quality is a huge factor in this equation, you can load a common garden firearm with match grade ammo and might not see any difference in that the barrel, action of the weapon and it's inherent accuracy help to determine overall accuracy. So loading match grade ammo into a Jennings 22 Long Rifle automatic and expecting to hit out to 100 Yards with supreme accuracy every time is asking a lot of the weapon and ammo.
********************
ReHerakhte 06-27-2005, 03:46 AM I don't disagree with you TR on the aspect of expense being a relative aspect as the majority of ammunition for purchase by the PCs after a given time probably consists of reloaded more than factory produced, every significant military post probably has reloading facilities for small arms to an extent and every major population centre would see the potential profit in providing reloading services... however, I would argue that the number of quality items required to make match grade ammo would be severely diminished.
Cases wouldn't be so much of a problem because you would recycle them but with the number of places that can actually manufacture the high quality projectiles and powder much lower than pre-war (and they would probably have more demand to produce standard ammo), you just aren't going to have as many components left to reload match grade ammo with.
Along with possible loss of manufacturing facilities for the individual components, there would probably be significant losses in personnel who know how to use the quality control apparatus for match grade ammo as well, thereby reducing the skill base and I would suspect that those civilian match shooters reloading their own would probably keep their best stuff for their own use.
At least, that was my line of thinking when I was writing up the cost aspects!
Still, as food for thought, it could make for an interesting adventure, having the PCs hunt down equipment, tools and supplies etc. to allow some community to produce bulk quantities of match grade ammo... if some group got a monopoly on production, they could make some big profits. Other groups might pay the PCs to "not find" the gear!
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
Twilight2000V3 07-06-2005, 10:30 AM Everyone has a good point. This is my take on it.
Lets take a look at a the stats for most 7.62mmN sniper rifles in Twilight. The range on them is listed as 75(m).
No Scope Scope/Bipod (or prone)
Short 75m 100m
Medium 150m 200m
Long 300m 400m
Extreme 600m 800m
Remember that a scope gives you the ability to see targets at that range. It does nothing for the effective range of the caliber. The bipod rule of 10 meters isnt in the rule books but the M21 has a listed range of 85 with a bipod so lets use it. The bipod just steadies the weapon for better aim.
The maximum effective range for a 7.62mmN sniper rifle is 800m. That is one hell of a shot from a military or police grade field rifle. Im sure there are 7.62mmN rifles out there that can easily hit targets at farther ranges but they are finiky and fragile. From what I know most police snipers practice at ranges no more than 200m and I think Army snipers practice at no more than 600m. You have to have phenominal optics to hit human-sized targets at 800m. I thinkn the standard military sniper rifles have a 4.5-14x40mm scope while police usually have a 3-9x40mm scope.
In my opinion, in order for sniper systems in the T2K game to have this range you MUST shoot match grade ammo. Otherwise the range should be 65m for a 7.62mmN round. The round "can physically get there" but how accurate will it be? At 500m the front sight on an M-16 basically covers a man sized target. I had my idiot brother-in-law try hitting a deer at about 700 meters with his 7mm mag hunting rifle with a 3-9x40 scope... 11 shots later he did hit it... (dumb ass)... and that was a deer that was NOT moving at all. And he was using good factory hunting ammo.
Yes "match grade ammo" is fairly easy to load. All you need is some calipers a very accurate scale, dies and a press (well, and ammo components too). As long as the weight of the bullet, the case length, the overall ammo length, and powder ammount at VERY consistant then you will have good ammo. Ideally you load the ammo for the rifle. Its somewhat easy just time consuming.
Just for S&G I came up with these stats:
(listed with scope and bipod(prone)
300 Win mag sniper system
Range: 110/220/440/880
DAM: 4
PEN: 1-2-3
RCL: 5
Max
********************
TiggerCCW UK 07-06-2005, 04:05 PM When I was in the cadet force we used a rifle designated L81A1, which was a modified Parker Hale M82. It had no magazine and was breach loading single shot. With this rifle, no bipod, standard ball ammunition and competition iron sights we would regularly shoot from 600 - 1000 yds. I appreciate that this is not combat shooting, but it shows what can be done.
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/cgi-bin/res.pl?keyword=L81A1&offset=0
********************
TR 07-06-2005, 07:21 PM I think the best example of what can be done with the 7.62 NATO cartridge is a case during the Viet Nam War regarding a US Army Sniper operating in the Mekong Delta, Sgt Adelbert Waldron III of the 9th Infantry Division...
Our most successful sniper was Sergeant Adelbert F. Waldron III, who had 109 confirmed kills to his credit. One afternoon he was riding along the Mekong River on a Tango boat when an enemy sniper on shore pecked away at the boat. While everyone else on board strained to find the antagonist, who was firing from the shoreline over 900 meters away, Sergeant Waldron took up his sniper rifle and picked off the Vietcong out of the top of a coconut tree with one shot (this from a moving platform). Such was the capability of our best sniper. We had others, too, with his matchless vision and expert marksmanship.
Inside the Crosshairs: Snipers in Vietnam
Col. Michael Lee Lanning
********************
Twilight2000V3 07-07-2005, 11:19 AM Hitting a man sized target at 600-800 yards witha good target rifle is not easy but can be done (oviously). But its not easy. I think what I was getting at was the 1/2 MOA standard on sniper systems. At 800 meters a sniper grade weapon will make groups of 4" consistantly (in theory). A sniper grade sytem with non-match ammo should probabbly have a 1 to 2 MOA or getting 8' to 16" goups at that range. That WILL hit a man sized target at that range but.....
Than again a good shooter will compensate for bad/inferior equipment.
Max
********************