kato13
01-22-2010, 12:12 AM
DeaconR 07-08-2005, 07:31 AM I don't know if this was discussed before. If it was I'd appreciate being linked to the discussion.
To what degree should aviation be available in the game? According to the game's canon there is not enough fuel to support large scale aviation or enough resources to support the manufacture of the kind of technologies that aircraft require for maintenance. Fair enough, but clearly some scenarios and background books show that some aircraft still exist.
Obviously from a gm's perspective the other problem is that aircraft theoretically make things a bit too easy on the players, but "Free City of Krakow" is at least one example of how aircraft can also make things more interesting.
********************
Antenna 07-08-2005, 09:18 AM It just depends on how you treat the canon, some wan't (me for instance) there to be aircrafts but then we are talking what can be hoarded togather to make an airforce.
There is a story from Wisla river adv that I ran years ago...
The players has just settled down on the tug when the one that keeps lookout shouts "aircrafts east-north-east approaching". Of course the crowd had plans for everything excpet aircrafts .... So they paniced, of game they asked "Is there aircrafts", "You haven't seen any in 2 years" was my reply...
They had a ZU-23-2 without proper sights so the one in charge wanted to shoot them down .... One other a 'AAA/Mech for real guy' said yeah right we gonna thorw stones on that barbarian and piss him of ... others just looked in their sheats trying to get an idea what to do .... finally when they where just beliving they gonna be toast the one in charge say "lets wave to them" and the 2 IL-2's flipped their wings when passing ....
So aircrafts "keept as secrets" for players is fun, then you can say yeah there is aircrafts but you ain't allowed to call on them etc
It is what you do with your world...
Then the best source for aircrafts is pauls pages www.pmulcahy.com mine is just ordinary crap... I been thinking of mailing paul to get his secret and formulas he uses to make my own files to his standard but yet been to buzy for the moment to have time to do it (hey Paul now you know what mail is comeing from me ;))
Then I got some files on my pages also mainly swedish aircrafts
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/t2k/h/airforce.htm
but also other nations
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/m2k/air/index.htm
Antenna
********************
Antenna 07-08-2005, 03:02 PM Update on my view....
The classic T2k is mainly just army based action, maybe it should only be that but the surprise of aviable or semiaviable aircrafts makes it really a dimension deeper.
I dunno if it was at this b oard or somewhere else I heard about "recover fuel to get that helo fly" adv... Long story short (this I played also) :
The players discovers a large helo that is intact abadoned in deep forrest on a landing field. The players decides to recover fuel to fly back to friendly lines. The players builds a small empire in trading "liberated" stuff for aviation fuel. The big day when they going to fly away for germany the GM asks who can fly a 'copter ? All looks down they charts, noone says a word for a while. "Well, can anyone fly a 'copter ?" It seems they wanted to get the big helicopter back, but noone could fly it ...
As it comes to aircrafts in my world .... YES, they are there! But if I say that the players haven't seen any and they only heard rumours about them flying around then that is the only thing they know. They probably will know more abouit aircrafts if they see one flying, until then they just got rumours.
And one thing when it comes down to intel and rumours. Info from me aint labeled as true intel or more or less rumours it is this you have heard and this you have seen ....
I know that I made players very confused when it comes down to intel/rumours, there are players that just belive anything to be true whatever I would say. They would play my NPCs as cardboard-persons saying Yeah here is that archetype of a russian solider lets shoot him ... etc ... they don't like my games in general those who see the game in terms of black and white...
Nowdays I warn players before start to play with me that the world is grey. Hopefully you will see what is the different shades of grey, but most times you won't.
That is the same thing with aircrafts, if the players frankly ask if there is aircrafts use any means to just tell them "what they heard" and " what they seen" ... as a GM giving straigth answers for T2k aint the cup of tea I prefeer couse then there will be those who said "But you said there was/wasn't ...." etc
If the question is from you as a player DeaconR I can only say what your GM is thinking about aircrafts is maybe his world of T2k...
If your question is from you DeaconR as a Fellow GM, then I can say read all above you don't need to hint the players if there ever going to be aircrafts in the world or when or if there is ... the surpises you deliver thru GMing is half the joy when GMing ... and nothing beats the sights of a player who discovers that those spots in the sky is an IL-2 or what ever you want it to be ...
'nuff said
Antenna
********************
Rainbow Six 07-08-2005, 03:29 PM I've always thought that aircraft should still exist, but as strategic assets, under the command of Corps or even Army level Headquarters, so not something that the 'normal' gaming group are likely to encounter in their adventures.
I seem to recall someone on an earlier discussion said that they occasionaly had their players see contrails in the sky, just to tantalise them.
That said, I've also played a variation of the helicopter scenario that Antenna outlined. My group found a Mil 17 in full working order in a barn somewhere in Poland. We actually had someone with the neccessary skill to fly the thing, but had no way of finding fuel for it.
So, we camouflaged the helicopter up again, and carried on wandering about Poland in search of avgas (which we never found)
Again, it was almost a tease by the GM, who took the view that it was the fuel that was scarce, not neccessarily the machines themselves. So he presented us with something that we could not use.
********************
DeaconR 07-09-2005, 01:16 PM My game actually takes place in the US in Military Region III. I'm basically trying to come up with ideas about what would be available, what would be recoverable, etc.
Thanks guys for the ideas. I generally agree; I'm not so much interested in aviation as a player asset so much as one for the society they are trying to support.
What I had been thinking is this: recently my players completed the adventure "Allegheny Uprising" and among other things found information about the gold in New York City. I've had them doing some other things since, as they just turned the information over to the Civgov enclave in Maryland. However, I was thinking about a large scale campaign of attempted recovery, and considering a negotiation between the Maryland enclave and the Milgov one described in the Challenge Article that is in New Jersey. This enclave has a few aircraft. Considering how utterly isolated the East Coast cantonments are becoming, I thought it would not be unreasonable for them to do their own diplomacy in order to survive. The gold would make the New Jersey enclave look good and perhaps entitle them to more Milgove assets, while even one helicopter in working order would greatly change the abilities of the Maryland Civgov enclave. Thus it would be an interesting adventure in two parts; part of it being to go to New York (I thought the census idea was not appropriate to my players, who I know would think it foolish) and the other to negotiate with the Milgov group.
I'm pretty lucky in my players; they are as interested in who their characters are, their motivations etc as in what they are capable of doing. Furthermore, no one in the party is a genuinely capable pilot; one of them could in a pinch fly a helicopter but it would be touch and go. I'll probably have to add an NPC crew who can accompany the players.
********************
pmulcahy 07-09-2005, 01:50 PM If you go by canon, aircraft of any type (including things like UAVs) are going to be damned rare, and the fuel to operate them rarer still. Being realistic, that is.
However, I like aircraft in even Twilight 2000 games. (Some have told me I'd be better off playing in a Merc 2000-type world, but whatever...) So my games tended to have more aircraft than would be realistic for a post-holocaust world. It's just how I like things. It's a GM call.
********************
GDWFan 07-09-2005, 03:41 PM I think as far as giving them to players lack of skill and fuel would make them untenable except as a short term solution to a escape or insertion. I would think that if Krakow, a city in the heart of the battle has a working heli then an outpost next to a comprable american enclave would have a chance of containing some sort of aircraft. Helicoptors being the most common because with the planes you have the rarity of the plane and runway. But I like to use them to compliment the back story and give the illusion that if they're seen in the sky maybe civilization is alive somewhere. Also there great delivery systems for the nukes in your backstory.
********************
ReHerakhte 07-10-2005, 01:19 AM G'Day all,
To add my 20 cents worth...
I think that you could justify having some aircraft in the world simply because Europe and North America have so many aircraft avaliable, however... I am talking about civilian aircraft!
One of the biggest (if not the biggest) general aviation communities in the world is the North American one and with airports ranging in size from isolated servicing airfields for places like Alaska to major international airports common all over the US alone, there are literally tens of thousands of aircraft in North America and a wide range of support services and buildings.
Of course not every single one is going to survive and even those that do may have major problems requiring qualified personnel to repair let alone the problem with finding fuel. This won't always be as a result of the war but its aftermath as survivors go on looting sprees or vandalizing sprees to relieve their fears.
But sometimes these things can be found in the places you never think to look - here in Australia, it is common enough for some farmers to own small prop planes and keep them in sheds on their farms, typically all they need is a suitable long & flat field to operate from. Sometimes they have their own cropdusters. I have been told that a similar situation exists in the USA but to a larger extent along with a number of individuals owning collections of planes for such things as warbirds collections to pole racing aircraft.
So what am I saying here? Basically, I think that some small aircraft & light helicopters would survive, whether they are actually useful to the PCs is a whole other matter though. But for a community they would represent many things, not just a recognition of the way things used to be. Possible uses include (in no particular order): -
aerial surveying,
aerial recce,
medical evacuation,
supply/mail delivery,
fast transport,
paratrooping (obviously for small groups only!),
para-dropping supplies,
search & rescue,
propaganda ("We have aircraft so we are more powerful than you")
or just for showing the flag and saying "Hey, we got aircraft so life aint so bad!"
And of course, there are those mad, inventive souls who could possibly rig some sort of bomb dropping apparatus or gun mounts...
This also brings to mind something I saw on the old TV show "Combat" with Vic Morrow. In one episode, Morrow's unit was negotiating with a German officer and to fool the German into thinking that the US unit was stronger than they really were, they collected all the wounded soldiers and all the damaged mortars that could be made to 'appear' combat ready and had them available for a show of strength for when the German officer was in the US lines. I am thinking the same sort of thing for a community - they have access to an airfield and deliberately take anyone they negotiate with past it to see all their aircraft. Of course, not all of them work but if suitably dressed up they can 'appear' to be in working order. A community that has what looks like 8-10 aircraft or more, could be considered to be a powerful ally or enemy... and of course it could be considered a massive threat by some other groups! How much more troublesome would New America be if they had even a handful of aircraft they could use for something like paradrops?
I think the biggest problem the PCs would face in having small private or commercial aircraft is that a PC group typically moves around a lot. Servicing and refuelling take a lot of effort let alone looking for spares parts should they be needed. Refuelling is the bitch though as many people would probably have looted the avgas stores for ground vehicles (I think that few people would bother looting the spare parts because you simply can't use them for much else). I think many PC groups would rather not have a piece of equipment that will fall out of the sky if they can't service it or fuel it properly despite the advantages.
This brings up something else though... paragliders/hanggliders (powered and unpowered). Light and able to be dismantled, many of these run on the same fuel you out in your car and although limited in range and capacity, they can still be useful for recce work and much of the repair work can be done with basic tools.
But this is long enough so I will stop dribbling...
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TiggerCCW UK 07-10-2005, 04:32 AM I like the idea of there being some aircraft still about, although they are rare and very closely guarded. Most of what will be available in my new campaign will be civilian aircraft that have been commandeered and are used only in the direst of emergencies.
********************
DeaconR 07-10-2005, 03:39 PM Has anyone run "Airlords of the Ozarks"? In that adventure there are three dirigibles which are owned by the New American forces in Arkansas. The thing is, the plans that were taken and the resources from the crash of the airship that they originally captured means it is theoretically possible that Carl Hughes' headquarters or other NA colonies received copies of the plans. And certainly it is possible that other NA groups might have the ultralights that the "Airlords" posessed.
********************
GDWFan 07-10-2005, 06:23 PM Thats interesting, I was thinking what if one of the many aircraft mueseums or a group of renactors assembled a makeshift aairforce to oppose them you could stage some pretty cool air battles and maybe even use it as impetus to show off a much more advanced aircraft or to from a fed up mil/civ gov
********************
To what degree should aviation be available in the game? According to the game's canon there is not enough fuel to support large scale aviation or enough resources to support the manufacture of the kind of technologies that aircraft require for maintenance. Fair enough, but clearly some scenarios and background books show that some aircraft still exist.
Obviously from a gm's perspective the other problem is that aircraft theoretically make things a bit too easy on the players, but "Free City of Krakow" is at least one example of how aircraft can also make things more interesting.
********************
Antenna 07-08-2005, 09:18 AM It just depends on how you treat the canon, some wan't (me for instance) there to be aircrafts but then we are talking what can be hoarded togather to make an airforce.
There is a story from Wisla river adv that I ran years ago...
The players has just settled down on the tug when the one that keeps lookout shouts "aircrafts east-north-east approaching". Of course the crowd had plans for everything excpet aircrafts .... So they paniced, of game they asked "Is there aircrafts", "You haven't seen any in 2 years" was my reply...
They had a ZU-23-2 without proper sights so the one in charge wanted to shoot them down .... One other a 'AAA/Mech for real guy' said yeah right we gonna thorw stones on that barbarian and piss him of ... others just looked in their sheats trying to get an idea what to do .... finally when they where just beliving they gonna be toast the one in charge say "lets wave to them" and the 2 IL-2's flipped their wings when passing ....
So aircrafts "keept as secrets" for players is fun, then you can say yeah there is aircrafts but you ain't allowed to call on them etc
It is what you do with your world...
Then the best source for aircrafts is pauls pages www.pmulcahy.com mine is just ordinary crap... I been thinking of mailing paul to get his secret and formulas he uses to make my own files to his standard but yet been to buzy for the moment to have time to do it (hey Paul now you know what mail is comeing from me ;))
Then I got some files on my pages also mainly swedish aircrafts
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/t2k/h/airforce.htm
but also other nations
http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/m2k/air/index.htm
Antenna
********************
Antenna 07-08-2005, 03:02 PM Update on my view....
The classic T2k is mainly just army based action, maybe it should only be that but the surprise of aviable or semiaviable aircrafts makes it really a dimension deeper.
I dunno if it was at this b oard or somewhere else I heard about "recover fuel to get that helo fly" adv... Long story short (this I played also) :
The players discovers a large helo that is intact abadoned in deep forrest on a landing field. The players decides to recover fuel to fly back to friendly lines. The players builds a small empire in trading "liberated" stuff for aviation fuel. The big day when they going to fly away for germany the GM asks who can fly a 'copter ? All looks down they charts, noone says a word for a while. "Well, can anyone fly a 'copter ?" It seems they wanted to get the big helicopter back, but noone could fly it ...
As it comes to aircrafts in my world .... YES, they are there! But if I say that the players haven't seen any and they only heard rumours about them flying around then that is the only thing they know. They probably will know more abouit aircrafts if they see one flying, until then they just got rumours.
And one thing when it comes down to intel and rumours. Info from me aint labeled as true intel or more or less rumours it is this you have heard and this you have seen ....
I know that I made players very confused when it comes down to intel/rumours, there are players that just belive anything to be true whatever I would say. They would play my NPCs as cardboard-persons saying Yeah here is that archetype of a russian solider lets shoot him ... etc ... they don't like my games in general those who see the game in terms of black and white...
Nowdays I warn players before start to play with me that the world is grey. Hopefully you will see what is the different shades of grey, but most times you won't.
That is the same thing with aircrafts, if the players frankly ask if there is aircrafts use any means to just tell them "what they heard" and " what they seen" ... as a GM giving straigth answers for T2k aint the cup of tea I prefeer couse then there will be those who said "But you said there was/wasn't ...." etc
If the question is from you as a player DeaconR I can only say what your GM is thinking about aircrafts is maybe his world of T2k...
If your question is from you DeaconR as a Fellow GM, then I can say read all above you don't need to hint the players if there ever going to be aircrafts in the world or when or if there is ... the surpises you deliver thru GMing is half the joy when GMing ... and nothing beats the sights of a player who discovers that those spots in the sky is an IL-2 or what ever you want it to be ...
'nuff said
Antenna
********************
Rainbow Six 07-08-2005, 03:29 PM I've always thought that aircraft should still exist, but as strategic assets, under the command of Corps or even Army level Headquarters, so not something that the 'normal' gaming group are likely to encounter in their adventures.
I seem to recall someone on an earlier discussion said that they occasionaly had their players see contrails in the sky, just to tantalise them.
That said, I've also played a variation of the helicopter scenario that Antenna outlined. My group found a Mil 17 in full working order in a barn somewhere in Poland. We actually had someone with the neccessary skill to fly the thing, but had no way of finding fuel for it.
So, we camouflaged the helicopter up again, and carried on wandering about Poland in search of avgas (which we never found)
Again, it was almost a tease by the GM, who took the view that it was the fuel that was scarce, not neccessarily the machines themselves. So he presented us with something that we could not use.
********************
DeaconR 07-09-2005, 01:16 PM My game actually takes place in the US in Military Region III. I'm basically trying to come up with ideas about what would be available, what would be recoverable, etc.
Thanks guys for the ideas. I generally agree; I'm not so much interested in aviation as a player asset so much as one for the society they are trying to support.
What I had been thinking is this: recently my players completed the adventure "Allegheny Uprising" and among other things found information about the gold in New York City. I've had them doing some other things since, as they just turned the information over to the Civgov enclave in Maryland. However, I was thinking about a large scale campaign of attempted recovery, and considering a negotiation between the Maryland enclave and the Milgov one described in the Challenge Article that is in New Jersey. This enclave has a few aircraft. Considering how utterly isolated the East Coast cantonments are becoming, I thought it would not be unreasonable for them to do their own diplomacy in order to survive. The gold would make the New Jersey enclave look good and perhaps entitle them to more Milgove assets, while even one helicopter in working order would greatly change the abilities of the Maryland Civgov enclave. Thus it would be an interesting adventure in two parts; part of it being to go to New York (I thought the census idea was not appropriate to my players, who I know would think it foolish) and the other to negotiate with the Milgov group.
I'm pretty lucky in my players; they are as interested in who their characters are, their motivations etc as in what they are capable of doing. Furthermore, no one in the party is a genuinely capable pilot; one of them could in a pinch fly a helicopter but it would be touch and go. I'll probably have to add an NPC crew who can accompany the players.
********************
pmulcahy 07-09-2005, 01:50 PM If you go by canon, aircraft of any type (including things like UAVs) are going to be damned rare, and the fuel to operate them rarer still. Being realistic, that is.
However, I like aircraft in even Twilight 2000 games. (Some have told me I'd be better off playing in a Merc 2000-type world, but whatever...) So my games tended to have more aircraft than would be realistic for a post-holocaust world. It's just how I like things. It's a GM call.
********************
GDWFan 07-09-2005, 03:41 PM I think as far as giving them to players lack of skill and fuel would make them untenable except as a short term solution to a escape or insertion. I would think that if Krakow, a city in the heart of the battle has a working heli then an outpost next to a comprable american enclave would have a chance of containing some sort of aircraft. Helicoptors being the most common because with the planes you have the rarity of the plane and runway. But I like to use them to compliment the back story and give the illusion that if they're seen in the sky maybe civilization is alive somewhere. Also there great delivery systems for the nukes in your backstory.
********************
ReHerakhte 07-10-2005, 01:19 AM G'Day all,
To add my 20 cents worth...
I think that you could justify having some aircraft in the world simply because Europe and North America have so many aircraft avaliable, however... I am talking about civilian aircraft!
One of the biggest (if not the biggest) general aviation communities in the world is the North American one and with airports ranging in size from isolated servicing airfields for places like Alaska to major international airports common all over the US alone, there are literally tens of thousands of aircraft in North America and a wide range of support services and buildings.
Of course not every single one is going to survive and even those that do may have major problems requiring qualified personnel to repair let alone the problem with finding fuel. This won't always be as a result of the war but its aftermath as survivors go on looting sprees or vandalizing sprees to relieve their fears.
But sometimes these things can be found in the places you never think to look - here in Australia, it is common enough for some farmers to own small prop planes and keep them in sheds on their farms, typically all they need is a suitable long & flat field to operate from. Sometimes they have their own cropdusters. I have been told that a similar situation exists in the USA but to a larger extent along with a number of individuals owning collections of planes for such things as warbirds collections to pole racing aircraft.
So what am I saying here? Basically, I think that some small aircraft & light helicopters would survive, whether they are actually useful to the PCs is a whole other matter though. But for a community they would represent many things, not just a recognition of the way things used to be. Possible uses include (in no particular order): -
aerial surveying,
aerial recce,
medical evacuation,
supply/mail delivery,
fast transport,
paratrooping (obviously for small groups only!),
para-dropping supplies,
search & rescue,
propaganda ("We have aircraft so we are more powerful than you")
or just for showing the flag and saying "Hey, we got aircraft so life aint so bad!"
And of course, there are those mad, inventive souls who could possibly rig some sort of bomb dropping apparatus or gun mounts...
This also brings to mind something I saw on the old TV show "Combat" with Vic Morrow. In one episode, Morrow's unit was negotiating with a German officer and to fool the German into thinking that the US unit was stronger than they really were, they collected all the wounded soldiers and all the damaged mortars that could be made to 'appear' combat ready and had them available for a show of strength for when the German officer was in the US lines. I am thinking the same sort of thing for a community - they have access to an airfield and deliberately take anyone they negotiate with past it to see all their aircraft. Of course, not all of them work but if suitably dressed up they can 'appear' to be in working order. A community that has what looks like 8-10 aircraft or more, could be considered to be a powerful ally or enemy... and of course it could be considered a massive threat by some other groups! How much more troublesome would New America be if they had even a handful of aircraft they could use for something like paradrops?
I think the biggest problem the PCs would face in having small private or commercial aircraft is that a PC group typically moves around a lot. Servicing and refuelling take a lot of effort let alone looking for spares parts should they be needed. Refuelling is the bitch though as many people would probably have looted the avgas stores for ground vehicles (I think that few people would bother looting the spare parts because you simply can't use them for much else). I think many PC groups would rather not have a piece of equipment that will fall out of the sky if they can't service it or fuel it properly despite the advantages.
This brings up something else though... paragliders/hanggliders (powered and unpowered). Light and able to be dismantled, many of these run on the same fuel you out in your car and although limited in range and capacity, they can still be useful for recce work and much of the repair work can be done with basic tools.
But this is long enough so I will stop dribbling...
Cheers,
Kevin
********************
TiggerCCW UK 07-10-2005, 04:32 AM I like the idea of there being some aircraft still about, although they are rare and very closely guarded. Most of what will be available in my new campaign will be civilian aircraft that have been commandeered and are used only in the direst of emergencies.
********************
DeaconR 07-10-2005, 03:39 PM Has anyone run "Airlords of the Ozarks"? In that adventure there are three dirigibles which are owned by the New American forces in Arkansas. The thing is, the plans that were taken and the resources from the crash of the airship that they originally captured means it is theoretically possible that Carl Hughes' headquarters or other NA colonies received copies of the plans. And certainly it is possible that other NA groups might have the ultralights that the "Airlords" posessed.
********************
GDWFan 07-10-2005, 06:23 PM Thats interesting, I was thinking what if one of the many aircraft mueseums or a group of renactors assembled a makeshift aairforce to oppose them you could stage some pretty cool air battles and maybe even use it as impetus to show off a much more advanced aircraft or to from a fed up mil/civ gov
********************