kato13
09-10-2008, 05:11 AM
rcaf_777 08-22-2008, 05:04 PM This group is talked about in the Basic Set of V 2.2 and I have wonder what this unit might look like, any thoughts
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chico20854 08-23-2008, 08:00 AM They are generally described in V1 as Border Guard Brigades that went over to NATO. As such, they would have been a motorized infantry force with limited support weaponry - BRDMs/BTRs/OTs and 120mm mortars or old 76mm field/AT guns, plus lots of lighter trucks like the UAZ. After going over to NATO they would get some aid and additional equipment to allow them some measure of interoperability with NATO forces - radios, possibly operated by US SF Teams. Small arms and replacement heavy weapons would be either older NATO stocks - FALs, G-3s and M-16A1s or Pact equipment from either East Germany or battlefield captures.
By 2000 they could look vastly different - they may have picked up Poles (and even foreigners) with a hodgepodge of skills, equipment and armor, in addition to several years of scavenging in war-torn Poland.
Black Madonna has a description of Marczak's Legion, a Czech Border Guard brigade that went over to NATO late in the war, although they actually became a well-armed marauder band.
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Hangfire7 08-23-2008, 02:08 PM I think they would go with using captured stocks of enemy equipment for the simple reason of familiarity. If they made the swap over to NATO equipment then the troops would have to learn a whole new system of equipment. To do so on a grand scale with take some time, plus it would initialy degrade the units preformance as they learned how to employ such equipment in the field as they perfected their skills.
And of course would such quantitites we abailable?
Something also sticks iin my mind. History has shown us that Poland was not thrilled being occupied by Russia, so I am wondering if there would be more units than just the one? And how would they be employed.
Anyone ever see the movie "The Eagle Has Landed" I think the title was. Where Micheal Caine plays a Otto Scorzennie type character but his character has a heart and a soul which damn him and his men by the soulless nazi high command and only doing a suicide mission do they get any reprieve.
So, with the above plot <if you've seen the movie> using members of the Polish forces to conduct subrosa operations, scouting, raids and such since they would have a intimate knowledge of people, countryside, forces and doctrine. They could operate doing all manner of missions, intelligence, combat, the stereotypical commando missions as well as some of the roles of the American Special Forces A Teams. I mean think about it, who better to raise local forces to your cause than having people from that region/village to go back and sway the people to aid in whatever means they can be it providing toop movements to helping lost Allied forces to out and out guerilla activities.
Oh I can see so many ideas for a campaign based on something along those lines. I may have to rewatch the movie as well as Bridge Too Far focusing on the Polish Brigade for ideas of a campaign.
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Mohoender 08-23-2008, 02:46 PM I think they would go with using captured stocks of enemy equipment for the simple reason of familiarity. If they made the swap over to NATO equipment then the troops would have to learn a whole new system of equipment. To do so on a grand scale with take some time, plus it would initialy degrade the units preformance as they learned how to employ such equipment in the field as they perfected their skills.
And of course would such quantitites we abailable?
Something also sticks iin my mind. History has shown us that Poland was not thrilled being occupied by Russia, so I am wondering if there would be more units than just the one? And how would they be employed.
Anyone ever see the movie "The Eagle Has Landed" I think the title was. Where Micheal Caine plays a Otto Scorzennie type character but his character has a heart and a soul which damn him and his men by the soulless nazi high command and only doing a suicide mission do they get any reprieve.
So, with the above plot <if you've seen the movie> using members of the Polish forces to conduct subrosa operations, scouting, raids and such since they would have a intimate knowledge of people, countryside, forces and doctrine. They could operate doing all manner of missions, intelligence, combat, the stereotypical commando missions as well as some of the roles of the American Special Forces A Teams. I mean think about it, who better to raise local forces to your cause than having people from that region/village to go back and sway the people to aid in whatever means they can be it providing toop movements to helping lost Allied forces to out and out guerilla activities.
Oh I can see so many ideas for a campaign based on something along those lines. I may have to rewatch the movie as well as Bridge Too Far focusing on the Polish Brigade for ideas of a campaign.
Definitely. Poland as never been a trustworthy ally to Russia. During the cold war, from time to time, they disclosed some classified informations to the West. In fact I always thought that was a weak point in Twilight. For my part, I think that as soon as NATO would have got on Polish soil, a good part of their army would have joined it (especially for the units having a majority of conscripts), turning on their former masters. In the case of the population they would have supported NATO, almost no doubt.
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Raellus 08-23-2008, 03:03 PM I wouldn't overestimate the average Cold War Pole's affinity for the West. A few of our Polish board members have stated that support for NATO was neither broad nor deep during the late Cold War. Yes, their were western sympathizers/supporters (the Solidarity movement, some Catholic clergy, and various other dissident groups) but their were as many, if not more, Polish citizens loyal to their communist, Soviet allied government.
As for the armament of the Free Polish Legion(s), I think that Soviet bloc weapons and ammo would be both plentiful and available and that such units could be supplied almost entirely with EastBloc gear. Not only would there be quite a lot of captured gear available, arms factories in the former East Germany would probably retain the capability to produce Soviet designed weapons and ammo in sufficient quantities to equip the FPLs as well as those E. German units that continued to use them, at least until the nukes began to fall in earnest.
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Hangfire7 08-23-2008, 06:51 PM Ral;
As for the numbers of Poles who would switch to the West. IF you were a trooper and planning such a thing would you let it be known? And in essance the nasty truth is someone doing that would be a traitor. I am speaking real life turning against their government even if it was controlled by an evil master. And who would admit that after the point has been made moot. I think this is where hindsight is a help. We have the benefit of time to have run and well Poland joined NATO, which is a pretty good indicator that they had at least some sympathy for the west.
If you want history where an occupied people lived under a puppet government well we have Norway and Quizlings and France and the Vichy which are the closest paralells. So Mo and our freinds in Norway how many people there would even today claim support of such a government initialy after they fell or some sixty years later? And when those despotisms were in power how many people would have voiced oposition? To do either in my view would not be too healthy or conducive to your longevity.
However one can also use paralells ffrom history where those people of occupied nations whose people were removed from the control of the ocupiers did in fact reject them, many of the French Colonies as well as the Dutch Colonies carried on even after their home countries had fallen, as well as its citizens, and lets not forget the Poles who did get out and formed their own combat units from Squadrons in the RAF, Paratchute and some ground units.
So, here is my question, I do reject the games numbers. But how do we get a guage of the numbers of Polish units and personel who would come to the allied cause with the hope of winning independance from the PACT? I think, IF the allies didn't do anything stupid and were victorious they would garner the confidence where they would gain the support of the population, if they consistently lost or were driven back over and over leaving the countryside in ruins then the locals would loose confidence and thus not hold out a hope for freedom, not to mention the idea that if the allies didn't stay and the Pact returned their would be a terrible accounting for their treason, let us not forget some of the Soviets policies of their own prisoners taken by the Germans as well as villages and towns who fell under German control. Which would be interesting as well. A town that fell under allied control would have no choice but to support the allies if we keep with history, since they would be suspect and suffer if/when Ivan returned, so they would be between a rock and a hard place. Thus, it would be in their best interest to support the allies to ensure they stay and the Russians and "Politicaly Reliable Polish Forces" do not return.
Interesting I think Poland should have had a bigger schism like the United States had between the Civ Gov and Mil Gov. There, I think it would be more likely than anywhere else. The alllies supporting one government, the Free Polish Government and the Pact supporting their side, each laying claim to legitimacy and denouncing the others as puppets and traitors.
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Mohoender 08-23-2008, 10:50 PM When twilight occurs, we are already very close to the time of communism end. Solidarnosch is very powerful in that country and that counts. Walesa and all the people in his organisation would not have stand for the soviet union.
Of course, a good part of the military is loyal to the Warsaw pact and I don't expect the elite formations to switch side but it might be another thing for the less professional units. Of course a war situation makes things uncertain.
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thefusilier 08-24-2008, 02:53 AM I would have expected Border Guards units to be the most politically reliable, and thus the last to defect. I thought it would be more likely for a regular motor rifle regiment/brigade to go over the line. Unless its because reinforcements were being sent without regards to this and eventually the politically reliable pool in the border guards was saturated.
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Rainbow Six 08-24-2008, 12:06 PM Related to this theme, I always figured that there might be a number of East German personnel who might stay loyal to the Warsaw Pact, perhaps enough to be formed in to a Division. To that end I added the East German Karl Marx Division in to the Soviet Order of Battle in Poland.
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Hangfire7 08-24-2008, 01:26 PM Related to this theme, I always figured that there might be a number of East German personnel who might stay loyal to the Warsaw Pact, perhaps enough to be formed in to a Division. To that end I added the East German Karl Marx Division in to the Soviet Order of Battle in Poland.
Good point. As I recall reading they had about 1/4 of the country acting as informers on everyone else. So, it is interesting but the knife does cut both ways when ideology is involved. And again lets use WWII as an example since its the closest thing we have to draw on in history. Durring German Occupation of Western and Eastern Europe they were able to draw upon a good number of locals to their cause raising troops of the occupied nations. Drawing a good number of men to fight on their behalf. Now, lets apply this to the Twilight World, people who are are of the same ideology, or even oportunists who see the chance for gain if they get in with the new power.
So, using the above theory, that could add to the diversity of persons fighting on what would be the wrong side if we went by nationality.
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Raellus 08-24-2008, 03:12 PM Ral;
As for the numbers of Poles who would switch to the West? IF you were a trooper and planning such a thing would you let it be known? We have the benefit of time to have run and well Poland joined NATO, which is a pretty good indicator that they had at least some sympathy for the west.
To answer your first question Hang, of course not.
I just used to think that the majority of citizens in all WARPACT countries hated their Soviet masters and were just waiting for the first opportunity to switch sides.
Deval (a board member that's been MIA for a while) and another chap who played in Chalkline's old T2K PbP who had actually served in the post Cold War Polish army both said that support for the west during the Cold War was not as great as many of us board folks were assuming it was. That was with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight as well. I don't know how reliable their report was but I'm assuming a Pole would have a better sense of it than a Yank like me. That's all.
Good point about Border Guards, Fusilier.
And Rainbow, I agree that at least some East Germans- civilians and military forces- would remain loyal to the Communist cause. I like the idea of the KMD.
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chico20854 08-23-2008, 08:00 AM They are generally described in V1 as Border Guard Brigades that went over to NATO. As such, they would have been a motorized infantry force with limited support weaponry - BRDMs/BTRs/OTs and 120mm mortars or old 76mm field/AT guns, plus lots of lighter trucks like the UAZ. After going over to NATO they would get some aid and additional equipment to allow them some measure of interoperability with NATO forces - radios, possibly operated by US SF Teams. Small arms and replacement heavy weapons would be either older NATO stocks - FALs, G-3s and M-16A1s or Pact equipment from either East Germany or battlefield captures.
By 2000 they could look vastly different - they may have picked up Poles (and even foreigners) with a hodgepodge of skills, equipment and armor, in addition to several years of scavenging in war-torn Poland.
Black Madonna has a description of Marczak's Legion, a Czech Border Guard brigade that went over to NATO late in the war, although they actually became a well-armed marauder band.
********************
Hangfire7 08-23-2008, 02:08 PM I think they would go with using captured stocks of enemy equipment for the simple reason of familiarity. If they made the swap over to NATO equipment then the troops would have to learn a whole new system of equipment. To do so on a grand scale with take some time, plus it would initialy degrade the units preformance as they learned how to employ such equipment in the field as they perfected their skills.
And of course would such quantitites we abailable?
Something also sticks iin my mind. History has shown us that Poland was not thrilled being occupied by Russia, so I am wondering if there would be more units than just the one? And how would they be employed.
Anyone ever see the movie "The Eagle Has Landed" I think the title was. Where Micheal Caine plays a Otto Scorzennie type character but his character has a heart and a soul which damn him and his men by the soulless nazi high command and only doing a suicide mission do they get any reprieve.
So, with the above plot <if you've seen the movie> using members of the Polish forces to conduct subrosa operations, scouting, raids and such since they would have a intimate knowledge of people, countryside, forces and doctrine. They could operate doing all manner of missions, intelligence, combat, the stereotypical commando missions as well as some of the roles of the American Special Forces A Teams. I mean think about it, who better to raise local forces to your cause than having people from that region/village to go back and sway the people to aid in whatever means they can be it providing toop movements to helping lost Allied forces to out and out guerilla activities.
Oh I can see so many ideas for a campaign based on something along those lines. I may have to rewatch the movie as well as Bridge Too Far focusing on the Polish Brigade for ideas of a campaign.
********************
Mohoender 08-23-2008, 02:46 PM I think they would go with using captured stocks of enemy equipment for the simple reason of familiarity. If they made the swap over to NATO equipment then the troops would have to learn a whole new system of equipment. To do so on a grand scale with take some time, plus it would initialy degrade the units preformance as they learned how to employ such equipment in the field as they perfected their skills.
And of course would such quantitites we abailable?
Something also sticks iin my mind. History has shown us that Poland was not thrilled being occupied by Russia, so I am wondering if there would be more units than just the one? And how would they be employed.
Anyone ever see the movie "The Eagle Has Landed" I think the title was. Where Micheal Caine plays a Otto Scorzennie type character but his character has a heart and a soul which damn him and his men by the soulless nazi high command and only doing a suicide mission do they get any reprieve.
So, with the above plot <if you've seen the movie> using members of the Polish forces to conduct subrosa operations, scouting, raids and such since they would have a intimate knowledge of people, countryside, forces and doctrine. They could operate doing all manner of missions, intelligence, combat, the stereotypical commando missions as well as some of the roles of the American Special Forces A Teams. I mean think about it, who better to raise local forces to your cause than having people from that region/village to go back and sway the people to aid in whatever means they can be it providing toop movements to helping lost Allied forces to out and out guerilla activities.
Oh I can see so many ideas for a campaign based on something along those lines. I may have to rewatch the movie as well as Bridge Too Far focusing on the Polish Brigade for ideas of a campaign.
Definitely. Poland as never been a trustworthy ally to Russia. During the cold war, from time to time, they disclosed some classified informations to the West. In fact I always thought that was a weak point in Twilight. For my part, I think that as soon as NATO would have got on Polish soil, a good part of their army would have joined it (especially for the units having a majority of conscripts), turning on their former masters. In the case of the population they would have supported NATO, almost no doubt.
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Raellus 08-23-2008, 03:03 PM I wouldn't overestimate the average Cold War Pole's affinity for the West. A few of our Polish board members have stated that support for NATO was neither broad nor deep during the late Cold War. Yes, their were western sympathizers/supporters (the Solidarity movement, some Catholic clergy, and various other dissident groups) but their were as many, if not more, Polish citizens loyal to their communist, Soviet allied government.
As for the armament of the Free Polish Legion(s), I think that Soviet bloc weapons and ammo would be both plentiful and available and that such units could be supplied almost entirely with EastBloc gear. Not only would there be quite a lot of captured gear available, arms factories in the former East Germany would probably retain the capability to produce Soviet designed weapons and ammo in sufficient quantities to equip the FPLs as well as those E. German units that continued to use them, at least until the nukes began to fall in earnest.
********************
Hangfire7 08-23-2008, 06:51 PM Ral;
As for the numbers of Poles who would switch to the West. IF you were a trooper and planning such a thing would you let it be known? And in essance the nasty truth is someone doing that would be a traitor. I am speaking real life turning against their government even if it was controlled by an evil master. And who would admit that after the point has been made moot. I think this is where hindsight is a help. We have the benefit of time to have run and well Poland joined NATO, which is a pretty good indicator that they had at least some sympathy for the west.
If you want history where an occupied people lived under a puppet government well we have Norway and Quizlings and France and the Vichy which are the closest paralells. So Mo and our freinds in Norway how many people there would even today claim support of such a government initialy after they fell or some sixty years later? And when those despotisms were in power how many people would have voiced oposition? To do either in my view would not be too healthy or conducive to your longevity.
However one can also use paralells ffrom history where those people of occupied nations whose people were removed from the control of the ocupiers did in fact reject them, many of the French Colonies as well as the Dutch Colonies carried on even after their home countries had fallen, as well as its citizens, and lets not forget the Poles who did get out and formed their own combat units from Squadrons in the RAF, Paratchute and some ground units.
So, here is my question, I do reject the games numbers. But how do we get a guage of the numbers of Polish units and personel who would come to the allied cause with the hope of winning independance from the PACT? I think, IF the allies didn't do anything stupid and were victorious they would garner the confidence where they would gain the support of the population, if they consistently lost or were driven back over and over leaving the countryside in ruins then the locals would loose confidence and thus not hold out a hope for freedom, not to mention the idea that if the allies didn't stay and the Pact returned their would be a terrible accounting for their treason, let us not forget some of the Soviets policies of their own prisoners taken by the Germans as well as villages and towns who fell under German control. Which would be interesting as well. A town that fell under allied control would have no choice but to support the allies if we keep with history, since they would be suspect and suffer if/when Ivan returned, so they would be between a rock and a hard place. Thus, it would be in their best interest to support the allies to ensure they stay and the Russians and "Politicaly Reliable Polish Forces" do not return.
Interesting I think Poland should have had a bigger schism like the United States had between the Civ Gov and Mil Gov. There, I think it would be more likely than anywhere else. The alllies supporting one government, the Free Polish Government and the Pact supporting their side, each laying claim to legitimacy and denouncing the others as puppets and traitors.
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Mohoender 08-23-2008, 10:50 PM When twilight occurs, we are already very close to the time of communism end. Solidarnosch is very powerful in that country and that counts. Walesa and all the people in his organisation would not have stand for the soviet union.
Of course, a good part of the military is loyal to the Warsaw pact and I don't expect the elite formations to switch side but it might be another thing for the less professional units. Of course a war situation makes things uncertain.
********************
thefusilier 08-24-2008, 02:53 AM I would have expected Border Guards units to be the most politically reliable, and thus the last to defect. I thought it would be more likely for a regular motor rifle regiment/brigade to go over the line. Unless its because reinforcements were being sent without regards to this and eventually the politically reliable pool in the border guards was saturated.
********************
Rainbow Six 08-24-2008, 12:06 PM Related to this theme, I always figured that there might be a number of East German personnel who might stay loyal to the Warsaw Pact, perhaps enough to be formed in to a Division. To that end I added the East German Karl Marx Division in to the Soviet Order of Battle in Poland.
********************
Hangfire7 08-24-2008, 01:26 PM Related to this theme, I always figured that there might be a number of East German personnel who might stay loyal to the Warsaw Pact, perhaps enough to be formed in to a Division. To that end I added the East German Karl Marx Division in to the Soviet Order of Battle in Poland.
Good point. As I recall reading they had about 1/4 of the country acting as informers on everyone else. So, it is interesting but the knife does cut both ways when ideology is involved. And again lets use WWII as an example since its the closest thing we have to draw on in history. Durring German Occupation of Western and Eastern Europe they were able to draw upon a good number of locals to their cause raising troops of the occupied nations. Drawing a good number of men to fight on their behalf. Now, lets apply this to the Twilight World, people who are are of the same ideology, or even oportunists who see the chance for gain if they get in with the new power.
So, using the above theory, that could add to the diversity of persons fighting on what would be the wrong side if we went by nationality.
********************
Raellus 08-24-2008, 03:12 PM Ral;
As for the numbers of Poles who would switch to the West? IF you were a trooper and planning such a thing would you let it be known? We have the benefit of time to have run and well Poland joined NATO, which is a pretty good indicator that they had at least some sympathy for the west.
To answer your first question Hang, of course not.
I just used to think that the majority of citizens in all WARPACT countries hated their Soviet masters and were just waiting for the first opportunity to switch sides.
Deval (a board member that's been MIA for a while) and another chap who played in Chalkline's old T2K PbP who had actually served in the post Cold War Polish army both said that support for the west during the Cold War was not as great as many of us board folks were assuming it was. That was with the benefit of 20 years of hindsight as well. I don't know how reliable their report was but I'm assuming a Pole would have a better sense of it than a Yank like me. That's all.
Good point about Border Guards, Fusilier.
And Rainbow, I agree that at least some East Germans- civilians and military forces- would remain loyal to the Communist cause. I like the idea of the KMD.
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