kato13
01-22-2010, 12:36 AM
kcdusk 11-04-2005, 03:12 AM Why is it that the chest area gets more hit points than the abdomen region?
I would have thought there were more vital organs in the chest region, which game wise would mean less hit points for the chest rather than the abdomen.
Also, not sure how "hollywood" or true this is, but soldiers shoot for the gut (abdomen) so that they get a serious wound but dont die straight away, hoping to lure mates out to drag them to safety and then picking off their rescuers.
So, why does the chest have more hit points? It doesnt make sense to me? (then again, none of this shitty war makes sense to me!)
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Targan 11-04-2005, 03:26 AM Partly it is probably based on proportion of body volume or mass (around 36-40% by volume). Also, in terms of concussion/blunt trauma, superficial cuts, impact from a fall, etc, the torso can take quite a beating. The real problems occur when the blunt trauma is serious enough to violently shift or lacerate organs, or there is a penetrating wound. The ribs (and to a lesser extent your spine) are surprisingly good at keeping foreign objects out of your lungs/heart etc. And some parts of limbs (long-boned sections like your thighs) dont bend too well, but the torso is remarkable flexible and pliable. I was thrown off a motorcycle at 130kph once, and curled up in a ball before I hit the ground. Hard. I took the end off one elbow bone, broke a heel bone and broke my nose. Torso was fine. Got up and walked around (briefly) afterwards, mainly to turn off the engine on my bike which was still running, even though the bike was a write-off.
Sure, there might be situations where you are in a position to choose exactly where to shoot someone, in an attempt to wound them and use them as bait. But mostly soldiers shoot generally at the abdomen/chest because it is what they call the Centre Of Seen Mass. Put simply, shoot at the centre of seen mass and you are more likely to hit some part of your target.
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pmulcahy 11-09-2005, 01:31 AM There's basically more body mass in the chest than in the abdomen, though wounds in both have the potential to be just as lethal; the difference is that if you are hit in the chest, you'll probably die instantly or very quickly, whereas if you get hit in the abdomen, your death will be slower and more painful (may be long enough for someone to get to you and put you out of your misery, or evac you out and save yoru life in a Merc 2000 game).
All role-playing games have to be more or less unrealistic as far as combat is concerned; if they were totally realistic, casualties among PCs would be apallingly high, and it wouldn't be workable as a game.
And as an American Soldier, I was taught to shoot at the center of the chest, and not the abdomen. Prisoner-taking was to be incidental in most cases, and not intentional due to "shooting to wound." Prisoners are a pain in the butt anyway; they have to be guarded, treated for their wounds, fed, etc. They just slow you down (especially those scarecrows that surrendered to us in droves during Desert Storm; they were poorly-equipped, shell-shocked half the time, and just irritatingly obsequious).
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Targan 11-09-2005, 01:37 AM I agree with everything in the last post except for the part about RPGs having to be unrealistic. In my campaign before the party had The Blanket, severe and permanent disabilities and death were common among the PCs. The CO of the group is a medical doctor and saved a few people through battlefield medicine, but at least two PCs subsequently died from infection, bloodloss or shock. About half a dozen PCs died outright in gun battles, mortar strikes and booby trap explosions. And one PC was beaten to death in a riot.
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kcdusk 11-09-2005, 01:41 AM Sounds like a fun game, Targan!
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Targan 11-09-2005, 01:46 AM Yeah, admittedly, having your character bleed to death after a gun battle is not much fun, but let me tell you, my players are a lot less gung-ho nowdays! They have become very good (even the players with no military background) at planning their movements tactically in game combat. Movie-style gaming can be fun, but we go for a realistic style of play, and while in computer games like first person shooters you can start playing again a few seconds after being killed, in real life and in my campaign it is best if you never get shot at all. I don't much like first person shooters for that reason.
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kcdusk 11-09-2005, 01:51 AM No, I was serious, sounds like a fun game!
On the one hand your players sometimes need to do the gung-ho thing, but then, settle down and play a "quieter" more tactful game. I think thats good. Obviously they were "charged up" when they got involved in a roit(!?!?!).
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pmulcahy 11-09-2005, 01:53 AM I can't remember the last time I played a first-person shooter; almost all of them are just plain boring. I think the only one I still have on my hard drive is Operation Flashpoint, and I haven't actually played it in almost a year.
Going off on a bit of a tangent, what is the most dramatic, silly, or gruesome player character death you've seen in a game? Mine was my first character; he snuck into the rear of a Russian truck, saw someone move inside, and hosed the back of the truck. Including the crate of WP grenades, which set off the rest of the ammunition in the truck. It was quite spectacular, and my character basically disintegrated when the truck went boom. (Years later, I question whether this quick an explosion was really possible, but that game took place just after I got into ROTC, let alone was in the National Guard or active duty.)
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Targan 11-09-2005, 02:03 AM Ah the riot, what joy! That occurred because the players made it out of Poland and when they got to Bremehaven in Germany they decided to celebrate. One of the NPCs in the party, USMC Gunnery Sgt Bart Lamont, was a five times former All-Services Unarmed Combat Champion (three years in a row at one stage), so Major Po successfully requested from the US military authorities for an unarmed combat tournament to be held to keep the tens of thousands of US troops occupied while they waited to journey back to the States. The tournament ended up being held in a soccer stadium, and individual units were left to select their own representatives, then the finals were held on one afternoon. There were three finals in three weight classes, and as many of the characters in the party were incredible martial artists, each of the finals included a party member. Po fought a latino lady named Latoya Maria Martinez, who turned out to be so dosed up on PCP he couldn't take her down and (even with hands so badly broken there were bones sticking out) she bashed him into unconsciousness. That stirred things up in the crowd a bit. Then Lamont worked his opponent like a bitch with his Juijitsu skills. Finally, Ratowi, the Samoan USMC monster, fought his equally enormous opponent, but the referee unfairly tried to step in, and drew his pistol. Ratowi (played by my brother) is a Mui Thai practitioner, and disarmed the ref and killed him with a couple of kicks to the head before going on to almost kill his already badly mauled opponent.
Then the riot started.
One PC (US Army Infantryman Spec 4 Julius Jacobs III, a young Afro American wannabe rap artist calling himself Dr Cool) was beaten to death by the crowd. He was Ratowi's towel guy and didn't make it to the sedan that drove through the crowds to rescue the party.
As an aside, Ratowi kept the pistol that the ref drew on him, and Po recruited and healed Martinez, so impressed was he that she had defeated him. Martinez (a USAF perimeter security dog handler) is still with the party.
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pmulcahy 11-09-2005, 03:27 AM I guess my vote for most gruesome death for a PC (as opposed to most spectacular) was the PC of one of the few female players of Twilight 2000 I've encountered. She was playing a female Delta Force sergeant, and popped her head up to look where the BTR-70 that was pursuing them was...just in time to find it about 20 yards in front of her. The KPV turned her head into instant jelly...
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Targan 11-09-2005, 04:03 AM Do you guys remember Lt Schaeffer from the Krakow Module? He was one of the Green Berets conducting Operation reset, and in my campaign Po saved him from dying at the ambush site where he is supposed to die in the module. The party ended up taking command of the Cav outfit B Troop at Dobrodzien (eventually causing the entire unit to mutiny against them, LOL), and Po used B Troop to mount an offensive against the nearest Warsaw Pact mechanised unit. During one of the initial battles, Shaeffer was manning a pintle mounted .50 cal on a Hummer, and the vehicle was struck by an HE autocannon round from a Russian APC. The round didn't detonate on contact but exploded in the back of the vehicle, setting off ammo and fuel and leaving the vehicle light. Schaeffer was blow, alive but on fire, out of the top of the vehicle, landing in front of it, then was run over by the vehicle as it rolled forward fully ablaze. No bringing him back from that one!
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I would have thought there were more vital organs in the chest region, which game wise would mean less hit points for the chest rather than the abdomen.
Also, not sure how "hollywood" or true this is, but soldiers shoot for the gut (abdomen) so that they get a serious wound but dont die straight away, hoping to lure mates out to drag them to safety and then picking off their rescuers.
So, why does the chest have more hit points? It doesnt make sense to me? (then again, none of this shitty war makes sense to me!)
********************
Targan 11-04-2005, 03:26 AM Partly it is probably based on proportion of body volume or mass (around 36-40% by volume). Also, in terms of concussion/blunt trauma, superficial cuts, impact from a fall, etc, the torso can take quite a beating. The real problems occur when the blunt trauma is serious enough to violently shift or lacerate organs, or there is a penetrating wound. The ribs (and to a lesser extent your spine) are surprisingly good at keeping foreign objects out of your lungs/heart etc. And some parts of limbs (long-boned sections like your thighs) dont bend too well, but the torso is remarkable flexible and pliable. I was thrown off a motorcycle at 130kph once, and curled up in a ball before I hit the ground. Hard. I took the end off one elbow bone, broke a heel bone and broke my nose. Torso was fine. Got up and walked around (briefly) afterwards, mainly to turn off the engine on my bike which was still running, even though the bike was a write-off.
Sure, there might be situations where you are in a position to choose exactly where to shoot someone, in an attempt to wound them and use them as bait. But mostly soldiers shoot generally at the abdomen/chest because it is what they call the Centre Of Seen Mass. Put simply, shoot at the centre of seen mass and you are more likely to hit some part of your target.
********************
pmulcahy 11-09-2005, 01:31 AM There's basically more body mass in the chest than in the abdomen, though wounds in both have the potential to be just as lethal; the difference is that if you are hit in the chest, you'll probably die instantly or very quickly, whereas if you get hit in the abdomen, your death will be slower and more painful (may be long enough for someone to get to you and put you out of your misery, or evac you out and save yoru life in a Merc 2000 game).
All role-playing games have to be more or less unrealistic as far as combat is concerned; if they were totally realistic, casualties among PCs would be apallingly high, and it wouldn't be workable as a game.
And as an American Soldier, I was taught to shoot at the center of the chest, and not the abdomen. Prisoner-taking was to be incidental in most cases, and not intentional due to "shooting to wound." Prisoners are a pain in the butt anyway; they have to be guarded, treated for their wounds, fed, etc. They just slow you down (especially those scarecrows that surrendered to us in droves during Desert Storm; they were poorly-equipped, shell-shocked half the time, and just irritatingly obsequious).
********************
Targan 11-09-2005, 01:37 AM I agree with everything in the last post except for the part about RPGs having to be unrealistic. In my campaign before the party had The Blanket, severe and permanent disabilities and death were common among the PCs. The CO of the group is a medical doctor and saved a few people through battlefield medicine, but at least two PCs subsequently died from infection, bloodloss or shock. About half a dozen PCs died outright in gun battles, mortar strikes and booby trap explosions. And one PC was beaten to death in a riot.
********************
kcdusk 11-09-2005, 01:41 AM Sounds like a fun game, Targan!
********************
Targan 11-09-2005, 01:46 AM Yeah, admittedly, having your character bleed to death after a gun battle is not much fun, but let me tell you, my players are a lot less gung-ho nowdays! They have become very good (even the players with no military background) at planning their movements tactically in game combat. Movie-style gaming can be fun, but we go for a realistic style of play, and while in computer games like first person shooters you can start playing again a few seconds after being killed, in real life and in my campaign it is best if you never get shot at all. I don't much like first person shooters for that reason.
********************
kcdusk 11-09-2005, 01:51 AM No, I was serious, sounds like a fun game!
On the one hand your players sometimes need to do the gung-ho thing, but then, settle down and play a "quieter" more tactful game. I think thats good. Obviously they were "charged up" when they got involved in a roit(!?!?!).
********************
pmulcahy 11-09-2005, 01:53 AM I can't remember the last time I played a first-person shooter; almost all of them are just plain boring. I think the only one I still have on my hard drive is Operation Flashpoint, and I haven't actually played it in almost a year.
Going off on a bit of a tangent, what is the most dramatic, silly, or gruesome player character death you've seen in a game? Mine was my first character; he snuck into the rear of a Russian truck, saw someone move inside, and hosed the back of the truck. Including the crate of WP grenades, which set off the rest of the ammunition in the truck. It was quite spectacular, and my character basically disintegrated when the truck went boom. (Years later, I question whether this quick an explosion was really possible, but that game took place just after I got into ROTC, let alone was in the National Guard or active duty.)
********************
Targan 11-09-2005, 02:03 AM Ah the riot, what joy! That occurred because the players made it out of Poland and when they got to Bremehaven in Germany they decided to celebrate. One of the NPCs in the party, USMC Gunnery Sgt Bart Lamont, was a five times former All-Services Unarmed Combat Champion (three years in a row at one stage), so Major Po successfully requested from the US military authorities for an unarmed combat tournament to be held to keep the tens of thousands of US troops occupied while they waited to journey back to the States. The tournament ended up being held in a soccer stadium, and individual units were left to select their own representatives, then the finals were held on one afternoon. There were three finals in three weight classes, and as many of the characters in the party were incredible martial artists, each of the finals included a party member. Po fought a latino lady named Latoya Maria Martinez, who turned out to be so dosed up on PCP he couldn't take her down and (even with hands so badly broken there were bones sticking out) she bashed him into unconsciousness. That stirred things up in the crowd a bit. Then Lamont worked his opponent like a bitch with his Juijitsu skills. Finally, Ratowi, the Samoan USMC monster, fought his equally enormous opponent, but the referee unfairly tried to step in, and drew his pistol. Ratowi (played by my brother) is a Mui Thai practitioner, and disarmed the ref and killed him with a couple of kicks to the head before going on to almost kill his already badly mauled opponent.
Then the riot started.
One PC (US Army Infantryman Spec 4 Julius Jacobs III, a young Afro American wannabe rap artist calling himself Dr Cool) was beaten to death by the crowd. He was Ratowi's towel guy and didn't make it to the sedan that drove through the crowds to rescue the party.
As an aside, Ratowi kept the pistol that the ref drew on him, and Po recruited and healed Martinez, so impressed was he that she had defeated him. Martinez (a USAF perimeter security dog handler) is still with the party.
********************
pmulcahy 11-09-2005, 03:27 AM I guess my vote for most gruesome death for a PC (as opposed to most spectacular) was the PC of one of the few female players of Twilight 2000 I've encountered. She was playing a female Delta Force sergeant, and popped her head up to look where the BTR-70 that was pursuing them was...just in time to find it about 20 yards in front of her. The KPV turned her head into instant jelly...
********************
Targan 11-09-2005, 04:03 AM Do you guys remember Lt Schaeffer from the Krakow Module? He was one of the Green Berets conducting Operation reset, and in my campaign Po saved him from dying at the ambush site where he is supposed to die in the module. The party ended up taking command of the Cav outfit B Troop at Dobrodzien (eventually causing the entire unit to mutiny against them, LOL), and Po used B Troop to mount an offensive against the nearest Warsaw Pact mechanised unit. During one of the initial battles, Shaeffer was manning a pintle mounted .50 cal on a Hummer, and the vehicle was struck by an HE autocannon round from a Russian APC. The round didn't detonate on contact but exploded in the back of the vehicle, setting off ammo and fuel and leaving the vehicle light. Schaeffer was blow, alive but on fire, out of the top of the vehicle, landing in front of it, then was run over by the vehicle as it rolled forward fully ablaze. No bringing him back from that one!
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