kato13
01-22-2010, 12:44 AM
Blackrider 11-16-2005, 09:53 PM i was thinking about how do you keep the isolated units of milgov. (or civgov for that matter) able to havemore then just radio connact (and trade) with each other.
the highways have become dangorus and the fuel consumption needed would be high... it seems the only units that DO have regular contact are those along the Mississipi river.
i was thinking of how you could restore some trade on the landlock areas, so i thought a step back in time... trains... there are a few museum and theme park wood fire steam engines that were running pryer to the war, get them operational and use them...
could have a whole campaign on getting ahold of a steam engine...(i wrote one 4 years ago) any other ideas?
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thefusilier 11-16-2005, 10:05 PM There was mention (Airlords book) of a link between 5th Army (Memphis garrison) through Kentucky towards Virginia. Another mention (US Vehicle book) is I think from Colorada to California through Utah in which there was a large troop movement. I know these exist but since I don't have my books right now, I cant be more exact.
Trains are a great idea. You wouldn't necessesarily need steam ones either.
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firewalker 11-17-2005, 12:19 AM it would be kind of cool to bring back the idea of armard gun trains. to go with the gun trucks.
the main problom with trains still holds though, you always no ware thay will be or ware thy will be going. vary esay to ambash or blockad.
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Targan 11-17-2005, 12:20 AM The entire route of a rail link would need to be within a secure area or be VERY regularly patrolled, as it is just so easy to stop or derail a train. But yes, other than water transport, rail is the most efficient in terms of the ratio of energy spent to tonnage moved.
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DeaconR 11-17-2005, 06:16 AM The areas that Milgov or Civgov have the widest range of control over would be viable areas for rail service. So basically: NW Washington, Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Utah would be where I would have such services still operational on a regular basis. I would have them on an irregular basis in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Ohio, Iowa as examples. They would probably not operate at all on the East Coast.
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thefusilier 11-17-2005, 06:43 AM A number of thoses states you mentioned having more of a chance of rail usage also are ones which produce petroleum, another helpful factor. Colorade and Utah is also one of the links I mentioned that were written about in the books. I believe the other one (or maybe it was both) indicated they were via interstates... so if that is possible Im sure by rail could be.
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Blackrider 11-17-2005, 11:02 PM well thise mentioning the troubles of knowing where the train can go acutally adds to the possablities of adventures, riding shotgun on supply trains.. patrolling ands securing the route, etc.
and as to chances of finding lost fright... when i was a kin in Kentucty i rember seeing trains of M1 Abrams and LAV vareints ridding past my house on the trains. so the possiblities are there :sacool:
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ChalkLine 11-18-2005, 12:41 AM I used a recommissioned WW2 German armoured train in my online campaign, the PCs were a security element and it spent most of it's time doing artillery stuff. It's extremely handy in a campaign sense, the way it must stick to the tracks means that PCs must go places where tracks aren't, and they have a handy big brother with a battery of (in this case) 105mm guns to support them. The players have a place to cook fuel, rearm and dump unwieldy stuff, and it's an inbuilt scenario generator! (Small ships are good for this too).
While I've got a very long description of the train, the short version is that it was composed of independant armoured railway cars, arranged in this case like;
Front Pusher car
Forward Artillery Car
Forward Infantry Car
Command Car
Locomotive-Tender Combo
Cargo Flatbed
Horse Car
Rear Infantry Car
Rear Artillery Car
Work Car
This is very similiar to the way German WW2 armoured trains were designed. I must post the whole thing to the net one day.
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graebardeII 11-18-2005, 08:19 PM Check these URLs. The first gives good information on operational (and other) steam. The second lists and links to railroads in the US (and other places.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/
http://www.freightworld.com/railroads.html
Now with that said, steam is great (at least IMO.. love them), but there are not a lot of them operational, and those that are on display will take MAJOR rework to become operational unfortunately. But don't be disuaded, there are steamers out there.
My question is with the diesel-electrics. Yes you probably can use them, but it depends on several factors, the least of which is how fried the electronics are. The newer engines are very electronic oriented for controls etc. Probably the best source of operational motive power will be the regional roads that utilize older model D-E's. Those that are pre-80 MAY still be operational with minor repairs. Of course, EMP could also effect the tractive motors. The signals, and electric switches will also be a problem, as will washouts of culverts and bridges, as well as slides in the mountains.
Of course, trucks will have the same problem on the highways. I90 was closed last week (and may still be) west of Yakima.. eastbound and westbound by a major slide.
As an alternative engine, you could modify a highway truck-tractor for the motive power. Not as much towing capacity as the regular engine, but you would not need a mile long train. Once they get rolling, it does not take much to keep them that way, until you hit major grades. Now westbound to Colorado from Kansas-Missouri is UPHILL all the way, suttle but still uphill, not counting the dips and hills in between.
And YES, the armored train in SB was fun, and similar trains could be fabircated, though probably not as unique.
grae.
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thefusilier 11-18-2005, 08:36 PM While I've got a very long description of the train, the short version is that it was composed of independant armoured railway cars, arranged in this case like;
Front Pusher car
Forward Artillery Car
Forward Infantry Car
Command Car
Locomotive-Tender Combo
Cargo Flatbed
Horse Car
Rear Infantry Car
Rear Artillery Car
Work Car
Just as an additional piece of info. In subsaharan africa the very 1st car is often an open topped car filled with sand. Rebels often hide mines and this way the heavy sand fill car will set it off and nobody will be injured. Another car always carried rails and such to repair the tracks so the train would not be sitting around too long in the middle of nowhere (or simply delayed too much).
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Chuck Mandus 11-26-2005, 09:59 PM Cool, I'll check out some of those links since I'm working on a Morrow
Project campaign using Twilight rules where steam locomotives are a part of the scenery. I'm always looking for good sources of rail maps.
Chuck
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abaumgartg 11-30-2005, 02:27 PM I don't know much about mining. But coal is pretty abundant in some of those states, especially Wyoming and Illinois (near the Indiana boarder)
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ChalkLine 11-30-2005, 03:09 PM Stadt Stettin
A walk through of the armoured train
Overview
The Stadt Stettin ('City of Stettin') is very different from an ordinary steam train, being more like a railway naval cruiser than anything else. The essential fabric of the train is over fifty years old, but many parts of it have been updated for service in the modern era, and the whole thing has been designed from the ground up with combat service in mind.
The train is ten cars in length, including the loco-tender combination, all cars are painted the Bundeswehr three colour camouflage pattern for armoured vehicles and has two axles per car. All armour is sloped where possible, and modern composite applique armour has been added in huge bolt on sheets, made possible by the trains phenomenal load carrying capacity. Every car has ladder rungs and hand rails welded at strategic places on it, a passing car has many opportunities for an infantryman to swing himself up onto the passing vehicle, albeit under the watchful gaze of many MG and individual weapon gun-loops. The two varieties of gun-loops are composed of a view-slit/hatch and weapons hatch, the machinegun versions have a positive feed belt system similar to that mounted on world war two bombers while the individual weapon versions mount an M231 Bradley firing port weapon issued with two 'Beta' 100rd drums, these weapons are stowed inside the train in normal usage. The underside of the car is armoured with a ballistic/concussive curve similar to that found on South African personnel carriers, in an effort to divert mine blasts away from the car and it's occupants, and some cars have racks for placing claymore mines on the exterior of the car itself. The cars are lit by shielded 6v globes set in massive housings, and an emergency red battery powered light is mounted near each coupling hatch.
The cars are joined with an extendable armoured tunnel over the coupling, giving protected access to each other in a combat situation; these are designed to fold back against the car leaving a hatch that is used in noncombat situations. All the enclosed cars of the train can be NBC sealed, and the artillery, command and infantry cars have IR spotlights mounted next to their cupolas in an armoured binnacle. All of these cars also have roof-periscopes on any roof hatch.
The following text is on a car-by-car basis, beginning at the front of the train.
Front Pusher Car, 3.0 m x 13.5m.
Similar to a flatbed car, this car is essentially a low, open topped armoured box. A clearance of 1m is beneath the under carriage of the car, and the combat platform is 2.4m above the rails. The side walls are only a metre high and have a gun-loop for individual weapons every 1.5 metres (eight loops in total) and a NATO heavy tripod at the front supports a MK-19 grenade launcher equipped with gun shield (SP 25), the floor is covered with a layer of sandbags to lessen the concussive effects of mines on prone troops and an intercom handset & speaker is at the front and rear of the car. Metal ammunition boxes are set between the gun loops, and two slanting grenade chutes/sumps are set into the bed on each side although common practice is to fling live grenades over the side if there is time, the grenade chutes are more regularly used as ash trays. There is no collapsible tunnel linking this car and the next, access is by a hatch in the face of the following car.
This car is here essentially to allow infantry a broad scope for combat as it has an unrestricted view, and to set off mines, an unpleasant but essential duty. In fact, the crew of the pusher car has a good chance of survival in a mine attack or derailment, but do tend to be thrown from the car.
When traveling, one fire team of the platoon will be stationed in this car on a rotating basis (Possibly depending on JD's 'shit list'); travel in this car is unpleasant in inclement weather. (Ho ho).
Forward Artillery Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
These cars do the majority of the killing; they are divided into two compartments and the entire car is capable of being NBC sealed.
The forward compartment is the support engineering for the overhead turret supporting an OTO-Mellara 105mm cannon/howitzer; the turret has been pinched from an old M108 SPG ( http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m108-002.jpg ), the compartment measures 4.5m x 6.0m with an overhead hight of 2.1m. Inside are ammunition boxes and compartments, along with truck batteries racked next to a small 1.5Kw generator in an armoured box. A total of 100 105mm shells can be carried within this compartment, although actual loads are usually far short of this, but the compartment is one of the most massively armoured on the train and it's armour protection is comparable to a modern MBT.
Two individual weapon loops are on each side of the compartment, a side hatch is forward on each side, near the forward tunnel hatch (the tunnel is folded up and against the sides of the train. Infantry normally disembark over the sides and move back to their posts on foot.) There is also a communicating hatch to the second compartment on the left side (facing forward) of the interior wall. Access to the roof of the car is through the two turret hatches or the side and rear turret doors, at present there is no weapon mounted on the commander's cupola. Passive/Active IR vision is available through the turret vision blocks, and an image intensifier is kept in the compartment at all times.
The second compartment is the main fire control and observation car, from the cupola the forward observer calls in direct fire targets, below it are the radios and plotting hardware and software for directing fire from this artillery car and any other artillery cars in the shunt, a dedicated intercom line is used for fire instructions. Here is also half of the artillerymen's living quarters, done out in heavy-metal decor and pride of place is given to their heavily sandbagged stereo system. In off hours the artillery crew are to be found using their non standard terminals for LAN computer game tournaments.
Forward Infantry Car, 3.0 x 13.5m.
This car is also divided into two compartments, the forward has four rifle gun loops a side, one of which is on the angled corner of the front end of the car, as well as one MG gun loop per side with a 7.62N positive feed mechanism and a 500 round hopper. The roof hatch has a pintle mount, equal to a Nato heavy tripod (M3), but no weapon is currently fitted. There is a large hatch on each wall; the left side (facing forward) is at the front of the compartment and the right side one is at the rear of the compartment, in the middle of the actual car. Each of these hatches is the same size as the rear ramp of an M113 APC, and the hatch slides along the wall of the car on rails, just under the gun loops. Beside each MG mount is a rack for the claymore triggers of any claymores mounted on the hull, space for up to four a side has been allowed.
In here are 12 folding bunks in four tiers of three bunks, two tiers on each side of the car, these are designed to fold up against the wall when not in use and to act as a supplementary spall liner when in combat. A small chemical latrine is central between the bunks on the right side, no effort at privacy has been made, opposite it is a small four burner folding alcohol stove with a sink mounted underneath it.
The second compartment is the infantry command compartment, tucked against the right wall, with a narrow corridor running around it and giving onto the coupling hatch. A hatch is mounted on the centre of its left side giving access to the corridor, another is at the rear of the train giving access to the outside, and a roof hatch with a pintle mount similar to the forward one allows access to the roof of the car. There are two rifle loops on the right wall, and three on the left wall in the corridor; no MG loops are in this section of the train. Here are two folding bunks against the inner rear wall, a bench/desk against the forward inner wall, and the platoon radio position mounting a SINCARS 50km/150km radio with a three metre whip ariel mounted on the roof.
Command Car, 3.0m x 8.2m.
This smallish car is the nerve centre of the train, it is here that Hauptmann Jurgens 'cons' his Zug, keeps in contact with command and his subsidiary units and it is here that officer level briefings occur along with any serious carpeting of enlisted personnel. The car is divided into three compartments, the forward tactical command compartment, Hauptmann Jurgen's tiny cabin and his staffs living quarters. There are only two weapons ports on each side of this car, on either side of the central hatch, and an extra large cupola with thermal imaging and ranging gear.
The tactical command compartment is crammed with radios, the AN/VLQ-11 'Shortstop' countermeasure unit, used for prematurely detonating incoming proximity fuzes, the AN/ULQ(V) tactical radio jammer, the MICAD chemical detector station which feeds from sensors all over the train, and the AN/PPS-15A(V)1 ground search radar terminal as well as map tables and drawers, a remote station fed from the artillery plotting unit and various other pieces of equipment used to command, control and communicate.
Locomotive-Tender Combination
The heart of the Zug itself, the huge armoured locomotive has massive slabs of composite armour bolted onto it's sides, underneath the dense armour is an original veteran, locomotive No. 547 was originally constructed in 1942 and served three years on the Eastern Front in continual action as the 'Stadt Stettin' Zug 607 (Schwer), and abandoned by it's crew on the Austrian border in 1945. In 1979 the train was returned to Germany by Austria and placed in storage at the Axvalls Pansarmuseum rail annex, when armoured trains were again determined to be required, the old soldier was brought out from retirement and refurbished as few modern vehicles have the power to weight ratio and over engineering required for Zug service.
The Locomotive itself is immense, and only the final 8% is used as crew space, inside the cab is a usual arrangement of pressure controls, throttle and gear selection, as well as the firebox view door and the Archimedean screw feed assembly that supplies fuel from the tender to firebox. It is important to note that there is no front hatch on the loco/tender rig, and this 'car' severs physical communication from the forward part of the shunt to the rear, intercom and radio messages are used in stead.
The tender is a complex vehicle, with an articulated linkage joining it to the locomotive; it holds the fuel, water and ancillary equipment. There is a narrow corridor leading to the rear hatch, closed and locked in normal usage, with water and fuel packed densely around the corridor which the engineers maintain is the safest part of the entire train. A small circulation space is in front of the tender, with a large hatch overhead; at the very rear of the car is the battery room that is powered by the loco's generator.
Seven engineers work in this car, their small arms are stacked in the tender and they usually sleep in the tiny hammocks opposite the battery room.
Cargo Flatbed, 3.0m x 13.5m.
This open flatbed has folding armoured sides in four sections, each reaching up 1 metre from the bed of the train. On top of the flat bed at the rear is a 20 foot shipping container, taking up six metres of the load length and only accessible from the middle of the car although rungs are welded all over the body of the container. Forward is the space reserved for a M998A1, requiring 4.5 metres of space; a HiAb cargo crane takes up the remaining area capable of lifting 3,500kg, and various rail ties and sleepers.
Horse Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
The horse car is heavily armoured and has no weapon loops, although view slits are scattered around the car and there is two roof hatches at the front and rear. Inside are twenty horse 'boxes' or stalls, staggered so as to allow plenty of room for each individual horse, each with thickly padded walls and feed and water receptacles. On the stall of each horse is a locked box containing sedatives and injectors, these are to be used in the event of a train wreck and the horses must be salvaged. The CO of the cavalry detachment keeps the keys to these 'dope boxes'.
To the rear of this car is a single bunk for the use of the horse attendant, over the rear hatch access to the communication tunnel, and at the front in a similar arrangement are the tack, saddle and feed storage.
Rear Infantry Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
This car is essentially similar to the Forward Infantry Car, except the commanders cabin is used an aide post, it contains a table suitable fro surgery and racks, cabinets etc for holding medical supplies. Built in equipment includes a set of surgical instruments, a small 0.5m freezer, a small 1.0m refrigerator and an anesthetic gas rig, along with an autoclave, centrifuge and overhead surgical light. Also kept in the cupboards are enough blood bottles for 16 litres of blood or plasma. This room is locked at all times and the Train CO keeps the key.
Rear Artillery Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
This car is also similar to the Forward Artillery Car, the forward area is not the fire control are but contains most of the equipment for mobile weapons that require to be deployed some distance from the train. Apart from this, at present the gunners are running a small ethanol still here.
Work Car, 3.0m x 8.2m.
This car is a workshop, containing everything found in a Portable machine shop, along with an arc welder, along with every set of tools found in the rules set (v2.0) except lock picks and aircraft tools. There are at least five sets of basic tools in here, and the chainsaw is alcohol powered.
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Targan 11-30-2005, 11:13 PM Far out man, that is fantastic! So, in a campaign you have designed or run, this train is being operated in Germany by the Bundeswehr in the Twilight War?
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ChalkLine 11-30-2005, 11:19 PM Yep, that was what the players in the game worked out of, the Zug draws fire like a magent draws steel. They were pretty busy. One of the highlights was the guys in the front car looking up to see the train ramming a burning bus blocking the track in an ambush
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Targan 11-30-2005, 11:36 PM Too cool! I love it. I wouldn't dare make something like this available to my players, they would use it to commence a new series of atrocities the likes of which even my campaign has not yet seen!
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ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 12:08 AM Good point, and the Zug was never made available to the players, they were the 'Ad Hoc Defence Platoon, 4th Platoon, 563th Military Police', a group of survivors from other units dumped in a rear area security company for extra firepower. Of course, they nearly always fought main force warfare but still got called REMFs when on leave in Germany, which caused a lot of fights.
The Zug was under NATO command, and so where the players, although the tone of the game was more like the German Army during the Fall of Berlin. Orders were vague, contradictory and often out of touch with the situation, the players fought to keep the unit alive.
This sort of unit, like a ship or powerful base, is too much for players and stops them 'adventuring' and makes them mere managers. So they had it loaned to them using the 'Patron' method from Traveller, which needed to allow starships into a game without unbalancing it.
But, if your PCs will not tolerate control or outside restraint, then I wouldn't give them something like a Zug.
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Targan 12-01-2005, 12:12 AM "But, if your PCs will not tolerate control or outside restraint, then I wouldn't give them something like a Zug."
Its not so much that they won't tolerate outside restraint, its more like they don't engage in restraint. Period.
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ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 12:17 AM LOL!
I have the same problem with my new group, but I suppose it's not up to me to judge them on what makes them happy as players. In fact, two of them chainsawed an NPC in half in another GMs game.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think!
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DeaconR 12-01-2005, 09:40 AM Very nice write up Chalkline. What was the adventure/campaign you used this for?
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graebardeII 12-01-2005, 02:34 PM Of course, they nearly always fought main force warfare but still got called REMFs when on leave in Germany, which caused a lot of fights.
We got a leave in Germany? Damn I must have slept through it. LOL
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ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 02:56 PM (Barde, it was where you had the bar fight with the SF guys, and your numbers and ferocity prevailed over their arrogance. Paris banging the guy's head against the table edge and Lee dive tackling off the stairs were highlights, I think JD was at Brigade.)
It was in 'Schlactebrucke', our Play by E-Mail campaign that ran for years, we had at one time twenty players in the platoon and ran at two turns a week (initially three). Unfortunately, I started working on remote pipelines and was too tired for months on end to post right, and the game petered out after a few years. At one time we advanced about three days of constant fighting in six months real time :)
The system was Cyberpunk 2020 with a modified medical house rule, and the theme was 'Everyday People at War', there were no SF or esoteric MOS. All PCs were ordinary US soldiers, nearly all privates, in an unglamorous rear area unit. Of course, after four years of the apocalypse war, they were the hardest soldiers that ever walked the earth.
The game ran on it's superb players, who's level of interaction kept everything at a level greater than the sum of it's parts, and made it easy to sit down and right for a few hours twice a week.
I made a lot of mistakes, one day I think I'd like to go back and redo Sb, gathering original PCs that wandered off and try exploring new stories, but unfortunately with the current world situation I find it difficult to write about soldiering when real people I know are in real danger.
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Targan 12-02-2005, 12:06 AM I quite like the "Friday Night Firefight" system from CP2020, and I have used chunks of the CP2020 lifepath system for character generation in Gunmaster:2000. I converted the entire CP2020 game to Gunmaster, and the hardest part was converting every weapon in the Blackhand's weapons book using Guns, Guns, Guns.
I agree, in a good T:2000 game, the players determine the quality of the game, they really do,
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DeaconR 12-02-2005, 08:43 AM That sounds like it was an intense game Chalkline. However kudos as well to gms like yourself who are able to keep such players interested. Recently my own players paid me enough compliments to make me blush.
I would suggest btw that not gaming because people are fighting for real is...well not a necessary attitude. People are ALWAYS fighting, dying, suffering somewhere. I have found that if anything good gaming and writing not only can make you more sensitive to real life but also is a much needed cathartic release at times. I have for instance urged people when they see unpleasant news to use that as a reminder that our own actions are important, to get more involved in the community or in whatever good causes they can most readily lend themselves to but also to learn to cherish all the more the blessings we have. In one of the courses I am teaching at the Bible College it strongly advises that good works wither when spirits do. In other words, in the midst of doing good works and being mindful of others don't neglect your own enjoyment of life and your own rest.
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TR 12-03-2005, 11:38 AM Trains are always a viable possibility, but lets face it not only do you need the maintenance crews for the trains, but your going to have to go out to the rail yards as well as repairing miles of tracks. That means break out the gandy dancers once more to straighten out the tracklines before the trains go on ahead...
Riverine traffic is a big possibility in the mid-west region as well, during the War of 1812 riverine traffic was how we resupplied forces in the South so definately this would be another means of trade.
Of course the obvious one would be supply trains drawn by horses, mules, or anything else, yep just like in the pioneer days so circling the wagons with your M-16A2 would be a real sight if you got into trouble. You could use the highways and roads if you wanted a straight shot but one would think these areas would be watched more by spies (civgov, milgov, new america, etc) and bandits... so going off road might be a safer bet.
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graebardeII 12-04-2005, 08:15 PM One vehicle I very rarely see mentioned if at all when everyone talks about transportation is the tractor-semitrailer. With ALL the trucks on the highway, WHY would you want to mess with military vehicles. I think there would be many, many tractor-trailer rigs with a pletoria of road names being used by the military. Older models could run with out electronics, newere ones are another story, but no harder to rig than the military vehicles for sure.
The advantage of the s/t is more weight hauled by one motive power. With the use of trailer-dollys you can make a land-train (which I'm sure our friends from Oz are familiar with). I'm not talking about the simple double- or triple- short trailers you see in the US, but post-oops, one tractor of 700hp pulling three or four 53-footers. OF course they have limitations, but still picture a truck with say two vans, a tanker, and maybe a flat. Cargo can be your choice, food, fuel and maybe large equipment to a settlement/base/outpost. Perhaps several such vehicles with escorts. Since they are heavy, and roads are not well maintained, one or more of the trucks is hauling bridging/enginner equipment. Persons can be hauled in the vans as well, perhaps in specially modified trailers such as they use at the basic training centers we called cattle-cars for obvious reasons. Trailers vary in length from about 20' to 53', in a variety of types, in varying capacities.
Note: a 'perfect' escort for this 'convoy' would be gun-trucks :)
Grae
Fleet Manager for a trucking company.
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Targan 12-04-2005, 11:54 PM I have seen here in Aust hydraulically-deployed bolt-on systems fitted to four wheel drive vehicles which allow them to run on railway lines, operated by mining companies. I assume similar systems are used the world over. This would be a handy thing for smaller vehicles operated by a PC party, especially if the rail route being used is known to be well patrolled, otherwise safe and in passable condition, and if a method could be found to connect one or more cargo carriages to the vehicle, its cargo/towing capacity could be greatly increased compared to road use. Fuel consumption would be lower, too. Anyone have personal knowledge of the systems I am talking about?
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ReHerakhte 12-05-2005, 02:21 AM G'Day All,
The following are some entries I have for shipping containers from my equipment list, I got them originally from Aether Traveller at http://www.reocities.com/harrisgwjr/aethertrav.html but although I wanted to post the links to the original entries, trawling through the site for a bit today, I can't find them (although some pages are not avialable for access at the moment, probably due to bandwidth usage).
And although I have modified the entries a little, all credit for them goes to Gerry Harris, the owner of the Aether Traveller site.
Cheers,
Kevin
Shipping Containers
20' Shipping Container: AKA 'seatainer', this is a standard, 20 foot long shipping container as used for bulk cargo transport on ships, trains or trucks. Metric dimensions are 16 x 2.4 x 2.6 (Length, Width, Height) and it has 37.44m of internal volume. During the 1990s other uses where found for these containers and with suitable modifications they could be found in use as portable offices, portable workshops, portable bath/toilet facilities or temporary storage facilities. Made from sheet steel that gives AV 1 to anything inside the container.
Wt: 2900.0kg
Price: $1725 (V/V)
40' Shipping Container: Basically a double length version of the container described above. Metric dimensions are 112 x 2.4 x 2.6 (L, W, H) and it has 74.88m of internal volume. Gives AV 1 protection to any contents.
Wt: 5300.0kg
Price: $2325 (V/V)
45' Shipping Container: A slightly longer version of the 40' container described above. Metric dimensions are 113.5 x 2.4 x 2.6 (L, W, H) and it has 84.24m of internal volume. Gives AV 1 protection to any contents.
Wt: 5900.0kg
Price: $2475 (C/C)
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Targan 12-05-2005, 02:25 AM Cool info, thanks. Which sized container is the one used in the palletised loading system for the HEMTT trucks operated by the US military? Mostly-submerged shipping containers are a great hazard for inclusion in maritime encounter tables in T2K, and in RL they are common causes of hull damage for boats and ships which collide with them. One of the boats competing in the Round The World Yacht Race suffered serious hull damage last week in such a collision.
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ChalkLine 12-05-2005, 05:00 AM I'd like to mention the serious steel (non-corrosive) that containers are made of, I've seen a four ton forkilift lose control and ram it's tines into one, but not penetrate them. While not up to AFV standards, this is the metal object infatry should be considering making long term fielf fortifications from.
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graebardeII 12-05-2005, 05:15 AM Cool info, thanks. Which sized container is the one used in the palletised loading system for the HEMTT trucks operated by the US military?
US military has 20' containers called MILVANs. These are the most common type used by the military (along with commercial vans). MILVANs are two types, one which is heavier used primarily for ammo shipments. MILVAN construction is heavier all-around than most commercial vans, as they get a heck of a lot rougher treatment than commercial vans generally speaking.
The military also has a smaller container that is about 8x8x8 called a CONEX. These are used by units for storage as well as unit movements. In theater, the boxes are often used for bunkers as well (though they are not suppose to be). Every unit I was in for twelve years had at least one of these boxes for storage (usually for flamables and junk).
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Targan 12-05-2005, 05:20 AM Thanks for the clarification, GraebardeII, I had heard of CONEX containers and their use as bunkers. The system I use has defined armour values for a variety of materials based on cross section thickness, any idea of the thickness of MILVAN and CONEX skins?
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graebardeII 12-05-2005, 05:23 AM I don't but will see what I can dig up. I do know they are thicker than the average commercial tin-boxes.
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the highways have become dangorus and the fuel consumption needed would be high... it seems the only units that DO have regular contact are those along the Mississipi river.
i was thinking of how you could restore some trade on the landlock areas, so i thought a step back in time... trains... there are a few museum and theme park wood fire steam engines that were running pryer to the war, get them operational and use them...
could have a whole campaign on getting ahold of a steam engine...(i wrote one 4 years ago) any other ideas?
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thefusilier 11-16-2005, 10:05 PM There was mention (Airlords book) of a link between 5th Army (Memphis garrison) through Kentucky towards Virginia. Another mention (US Vehicle book) is I think from Colorada to California through Utah in which there was a large troop movement. I know these exist but since I don't have my books right now, I cant be more exact.
Trains are a great idea. You wouldn't necessesarily need steam ones either.
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firewalker 11-17-2005, 12:19 AM it would be kind of cool to bring back the idea of armard gun trains. to go with the gun trucks.
the main problom with trains still holds though, you always no ware thay will be or ware thy will be going. vary esay to ambash or blockad.
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Targan 11-17-2005, 12:20 AM The entire route of a rail link would need to be within a secure area or be VERY regularly patrolled, as it is just so easy to stop or derail a train. But yes, other than water transport, rail is the most efficient in terms of the ratio of energy spent to tonnage moved.
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DeaconR 11-17-2005, 06:16 AM The areas that Milgov or Civgov have the widest range of control over would be viable areas for rail service. So basically: NW Washington, Colorado, Wyoming, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, Utah would be where I would have such services still operational on a regular basis. I would have them on an irregular basis in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Ohio, Iowa as examples. They would probably not operate at all on the East Coast.
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thefusilier 11-17-2005, 06:43 AM A number of thoses states you mentioned having more of a chance of rail usage also are ones which produce petroleum, another helpful factor. Colorade and Utah is also one of the links I mentioned that were written about in the books. I believe the other one (or maybe it was both) indicated they were via interstates... so if that is possible Im sure by rail could be.
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Blackrider 11-17-2005, 11:02 PM well thise mentioning the troubles of knowing where the train can go acutally adds to the possablities of adventures, riding shotgun on supply trains.. patrolling ands securing the route, etc.
and as to chances of finding lost fright... when i was a kin in Kentucty i rember seeing trains of M1 Abrams and LAV vareints ridding past my house on the trains. so the possiblities are there :sacool:
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ChalkLine 11-18-2005, 12:41 AM I used a recommissioned WW2 German armoured train in my online campaign, the PCs were a security element and it spent most of it's time doing artillery stuff. It's extremely handy in a campaign sense, the way it must stick to the tracks means that PCs must go places where tracks aren't, and they have a handy big brother with a battery of (in this case) 105mm guns to support them. The players have a place to cook fuel, rearm and dump unwieldy stuff, and it's an inbuilt scenario generator! (Small ships are good for this too).
While I've got a very long description of the train, the short version is that it was composed of independant armoured railway cars, arranged in this case like;
Front Pusher car
Forward Artillery Car
Forward Infantry Car
Command Car
Locomotive-Tender Combo
Cargo Flatbed
Horse Car
Rear Infantry Car
Rear Artillery Car
Work Car
This is very similiar to the way German WW2 armoured trains were designed. I must post the whole thing to the net one day.
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graebardeII 11-18-2005, 08:19 PM Check these URLs. The first gives good information on operational (and other) steam. The second lists and links to railroads in the US (and other places.
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/
http://www.freightworld.com/railroads.html
Now with that said, steam is great (at least IMO.. love them), but there are not a lot of them operational, and those that are on display will take MAJOR rework to become operational unfortunately. But don't be disuaded, there are steamers out there.
My question is with the diesel-electrics. Yes you probably can use them, but it depends on several factors, the least of which is how fried the electronics are. The newer engines are very electronic oriented for controls etc. Probably the best source of operational motive power will be the regional roads that utilize older model D-E's. Those that are pre-80 MAY still be operational with minor repairs. Of course, EMP could also effect the tractive motors. The signals, and electric switches will also be a problem, as will washouts of culverts and bridges, as well as slides in the mountains.
Of course, trucks will have the same problem on the highways. I90 was closed last week (and may still be) west of Yakima.. eastbound and westbound by a major slide.
As an alternative engine, you could modify a highway truck-tractor for the motive power. Not as much towing capacity as the regular engine, but you would not need a mile long train. Once they get rolling, it does not take much to keep them that way, until you hit major grades. Now westbound to Colorado from Kansas-Missouri is UPHILL all the way, suttle but still uphill, not counting the dips and hills in between.
And YES, the armored train in SB was fun, and similar trains could be fabircated, though probably not as unique.
grae.
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thefusilier 11-18-2005, 08:36 PM While I've got a very long description of the train, the short version is that it was composed of independant armoured railway cars, arranged in this case like;
Front Pusher car
Forward Artillery Car
Forward Infantry Car
Command Car
Locomotive-Tender Combo
Cargo Flatbed
Horse Car
Rear Infantry Car
Rear Artillery Car
Work Car
Just as an additional piece of info. In subsaharan africa the very 1st car is often an open topped car filled with sand. Rebels often hide mines and this way the heavy sand fill car will set it off and nobody will be injured. Another car always carried rails and such to repair the tracks so the train would not be sitting around too long in the middle of nowhere (or simply delayed too much).
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Chuck Mandus 11-26-2005, 09:59 PM Cool, I'll check out some of those links since I'm working on a Morrow
Project campaign using Twilight rules where steam locomotives are a part of the scenery. I'm always looking for good sources of rail maps.
Chuck
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abaumgartg 11-30-2005, 02:27 PM I don't know much about mining. But coal is pretty abundant in some of those states, especially Wyoming and Illinois (near the Indiana boarder)
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ChalkLine 11-30-2005, 03:09 PM Stadt Stettin
A walk through of the armoured train
Overview
The Stadt Stettin ('City of Stettin') is very different from an ordinary steam train, being more like a railway naval cruiser than anything else. The essential fabric of the train is over fifty years old, but many parts of it have been updated for service in the modern era, and the whole thing has been designed from the ground up with combat service in mind.
The train is ten cars in length, including the loco-tender combination, all cars are painted the Bundeswehr three colour camouflage pattern for armoured vehicles and has two axles per car. All armour is sloped where possible, and modern composite applique armour has been added in huge bolt on sheets, made possible by the trains phenomenal load carrying capacity. Every car has ladder rungs and hand rails welded at strategic places on it, a passing car has many opportunities for an infantryman to swing himself up onto the passing vehicle, albeit under the watchful gaze of many MG and individual weapon gun-loops. The two varieties of gun-loops are composed of a view-slit/hatch and weapons hatch, the machinegun versions have a positive feed belt system similar to that mounted on world war two bombers while the individual weapon versions mount an M231 Bradley firing port weapon issued with two 'Beta' 100rd drums, these weapons are stowed inside the train in normal usage. The underside of the car is armoured with a ballistic/concussive curve similar to that found on South African personnel carriers, in an effort to divert mine blasts away from the car and it's occupants, and some cars have racks for placing claymore mines on the exterior of the car itself. The cars are lit by shielded 6v globes set in massive housings, and an emergency red battery powered light is mounted near each coupling hatch.
The cars are joined with an extendable armoured tunnel over the coupling, giving protected access to each other in a combat situation; these are designed to fold back against the car leaving a hatch that is used in noncombat situations. All the enclosed cars of the train can be NBC sealed, and the artillery, command and infantry cars have IR spotlights mounted next to their cupolas in an armoured binnacle. All of these cars also have roof-periscopes on any roof hatch.
The following text is on a car-by-car basis, beginning at the front of the train.
Front Pusher Car, 3.0 m x 13.5m.
Similar to a flatbed car, this car is essentially a low, open topped armoured box. A clearance of 1m is beneath the under carriage of the car, and the combat platform is 2.4m above the rails. The side walls are only a metre high and have a gun-loop for individual weapons every 1.5 metres (eight loops in total) and a NATO heavy tripod at the front supports a MK-19 grenade launcher equipped with gun shield (SP 25), the floor is covered with a layer of sandbags to lessen the concussive effects of mines on prone troops and an intercom handset & speaker is at the front and rear of the car. Metal ammunition boxes are set between the gun loops, and two slanting grenade chutes/sumps are set into the bed on each side although common practice is to fling live grenades over the side if there is time, the grenade chutes are more regularly used as ash trays. There is no collapsible tunnel linking this car and the next, access is by a hatch in the face of the following car.
This car is here essentially to allow infantry a broad scope for combat as it has an unrestricted view, and to set off mines, an unpleasant but essential duty. In fact, the crew of the pusher car has a good chance of survival in a mine attack or derailment, but do tend to be thrown from the car.
When traveling, one fire team of the platoon will be stationed in this car on a rotating basis (Possibly depending on JD's 'shit list'); travel in this car is unpleasant in inclement weather. (Ho ho).
Forward Artillery Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
These cars do the majority of the killing; they are divided into two compartments and the entire car is capable of being NBC sealed.
The forward compartment is the support engineering for the overhead turret supporting an OTO-Mellara 105mm cannon/howitzer; the turret has been pinched from an old M108 SPG ( http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m108-002.jpg ), the compartment measures 4.5m x 6.0m with an overhead hight of 2.1m. Inside are ammunition boxes and compartments, along with truck batteries racked next to a small 1.5Kw generator in an armoured box. A total of 100 105mm shells can be carried within this compartment, although actual loads are usually far short of this, but the compartment is one of the most massively armoured on the train and it's armour protection is comparable to a modern MBT.
Two individual weapon loops are on each side of the compartment, a side hatch is forward on each side, near the forward tunnel hatch (the tunnel is folded up and against the sides of the train. Infantry normally disembark over the sides and move back to their posts on foot.) There is also a communicating hatch to the second compartment on the left side (facing forward) of the interior wall. Access to the roof of the car is through the two turret hatches or the side and rear turret doors, at present there is no weapon mounted on the commander's cupola. Passive/Active IR vision is available through the turret vision blocks, and an image intensifier is kept in the compartment at all times.
The second compartment is the main fire control and observation car, from the cupola the forward observer calls in direct fire targets, below it are the radios and plotting hardware and software for directing fire from this artillery car and any other artillery cars in the shunt, a dedicated intercom line is used for fire instructions. Here is also half of the artillerymen's living quarters, done out in heavy-metal decor and pride of place is given to their heavily sandbagged stereo system. In off hours the artillery crew are to be found using their non standard terminals for LAN computer game tournaments.
Forward Infantry Car, 3.0 x 13.5m.
This car is also divided into two compartments, the forward has four rifle gun loops a side, one of which is on the angled corner of the front end of the car, as well as one MG gun loop per side with a 7.62N positive feed mechanism and a 500 round hopper. The roof hatch has a pintle mount, equal to a Nato heavy tripod (M3), but no weapon is currently fitted. There is a large hatch on each wall; the left side (facing forward) is at the front of the compartment and the right side one is at the rear of the compartment, in the middle of the actual car. Each of these hatches is the same size as the rear ramp of an M113 APC, and the hatch slides along the wall of the car on rails, just under the gun loops. Beside each MG mount is a rack for the claymore triggers of any claymores mounted on the hull, space for up to four a side has been allowed.
In here are 12 folding bunks in four tiers of three bunks, two tiers on each side of the car, these are designed to fold up against the wall when not in use and to act as a supplementary spall liner when in combat. A small chemical latrine is central between the bunks on the right side, no effort at privacy has been made, opposite it is a small four burner folding alcohol stove with a sink mounted underneath it.
The second compartment is the infantry command compartment, tucked against the right wall, with a narrow corridor running around it and giving onto the coupling hatch. A hatch is mounted on the centre of its left side giving access to the corridor, another is at the rear of the train giving access to the outside, and a roof hatch with a pintle mount similar to the forward one allows access to the roof of the car. There are two rifle loops on the right wall, and three on the left wall in the corridor; no MG loops are in this section of the train. Here are two folding bunks against the inner rear wall, a bench/desk against the forward inner wall, and the platoon radio position mounting a SINCARS 50km/150km radio with a three metre whip ariel mounted on the roof.
Command Car, 3.0m x 8.2m.
This smallish car is the nerve centre of the train, it is here that Hauptmann Jurgens 'cons' his Zug, keeps in contact with command and his subsidiary units and it is here that officer level briefings occur along with any serious carpeting of enlisted personnel. The car is divided into three compartments, the forward tactical command compartment, Hauptmann Jurgen's tiny cabin and his staffs living quarters. There are only two weapons ports on each side of this car, on either side of the central hatch, and an extra large cupola with thermal imaging and ranging gear.
The tactical command compartment is crammed with radios, the AN/VLQ-11 'Shortstop' countermeasure unit, used for prematurely detonating incoming proximity fuzes, the AN/ULQ(V) tactical radio jammer, the MICAD chemical detector station which feeds from sensors all over the train, and the AN/PPS-15A(V)1 ground search radar terminal as well as map tables and drawers, a remote station fed from the artillery plotting unit and various other pieces of equipment used to command, control and communicate.
Locomotive-Tender Combination
The heart of the Zug itself, the huge armoured locomotive has massive slabs of composite armour bolted onto it's sides, underneath the dense armour is an original veteran, locomotive No. 547 was originally constructed in 1942 and served three years on the Eastern Front in continual action as the 'Stadt Stettin' Zug 607 (Schwer), and abandoned by it's crew on the Austrian border in 1945. In 1979 the train was returned to Germany by Austria and placed in storage at the Axvalls Pansarmuseum rail annex, when armoured trains were again determined to be required, the old soldier was brought out from retirement and refurbished as few modern vehicles have the power to weight ratio and over engineering required for Zug service.
The Locomotive itself is immense, and only the final 8% is used as crew space, inside the cab is a usual arrangement of pressure controls, throttle and gear selection, as well as the firebox view door and the Archimedean screw feed assembly that supplies fuel from the tender to firebox. It is important to note that there is no front hatch on the loco/tender rig, and this 'car' severs physical communication from the forward part of the shunt to the rear, intercom and radio messages are used in stead.
The tender is a complex vehicle, with an articulated linkage joining it to the locomotive; it holds the fuel, water and ancillary equipment. There is a narrow corridor leading to the rear hatch, closed and locked in normal usage, with water and fuel packed densely around the corridor which the engineers maintain is the safest part of the entire train. A small circulation space is in front of the tender, with a large hatch overhead; at the very rear of the car is the battery room that is powered by the loco's generator.
Seven engineers work in this car, their small arms are stacked in the tender and they usually sleep in the tiny hammocks opposite the battery room.
Cargo Flatbed, 3.0m x 13.5m.
This open flatbed has folding armoured sides in four sections, each reaching up 1 metre from the bed of the train. On top of the flat bed at the rear is a 20 foot shipping container, taking up six metres of the load length and only accessible from the middle of the car although rungs are welded all over the body of the container. Forward is the space reserved for a M998A1, requiring 4.5 metres of space; a HiAb cargo crane takes up the remaining area capable of lifting 3,500kg, and various rail ties and sleepers.
Horse Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
The horse car is heavily armoured and has no weapon loops, although view slits are scattered around the car and there is two roof hatches at the front and rear. Inside are twenty horse 'boxes' or stalls, staggered so as to allow plenty of room for each individual horse, each with thickly padded walls and feed and water receptacles. On the stall of each horse is a locked box containing sedatives and injectors, these are to be used in the event of a train wreck and the horses must be salvaged. The CO of the cavalry detachment keeps the keys to these 'dope boxes'.
To the rear of this car is a single bunk for the use of the horse attendant, over the rear hatch access to the communication tunnel, and at the front in a similar arrangement are the tack, saddle and feed storage.
Rear Infantry Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
This car is essentially similar to the Forward Infantry Car, except the commanders cabin is used an aide post, it contains a table suitable fro surgery and racks, cabinets etc for holding medical supplies. Built in equipment includes a set of surgical instruments, a small 0.5m freezer, a small 1.0m refrigerator and an anesthetic gas rig, along with an autoclave, centrifuge and overhead surgical light. Also kept in the cupboards are enough blood bottles for 16 litres of blood or plasma. This room is locked at all times and the Train CO keeps the key.
Rear Artillery Car, 3.0m x 13.5m.
This car is also similar to the Forward Artillery Car, the forward area is not the fire control are but contains most of the equipment for mobile weapons that require to be deployed some distance from the train. Apart from this, at present the gunners are running a small ethanol still here.
Work Car, 3.0m x 8.2m.
This car is a workshop, containing everything found in a Portable machine shop, along with an arc welder, along with every set of tools found in the rules set (v2.0) except lock picks and aircraft tools. There are at least five sets of basic tools in here, and the chainsaw is alcohol powered.
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Targan 11-30-2005, 11:13 PM Far out man, that is fantastic! So, in a campaign you have designed or run, this train is being operated in Germany by the Bundeswehr in the Twilight War?
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ChalkLine 11-30-2005, 11:19 PM Yep, that was what the players in the game worked out of, the Zug draws fire like a magent draws steel. They were pretty busy. One of the highlights was the guys in the front car looking up to see the train ramming a burning bus blocking the track in an ambush
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Targan 11-30-2005, 11:36 PM Too cool! I love it. I wouldn't dare make something like this available to my players, they would use it to commence a new series of atrocities the likes of which even my campaign has not yet seen!
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ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 12:08 AM Good point, and the Zug was never made available to the players, they were the 'Ad Hoc Defence Platoon, 4th Platoon, 563th Military Police', a group of survivors from other units dumped in a rear area security company for extra firepower. Of course, they nearly always fought main force warfare but still got called REMFs when on leave in Germany, which caused a lot of fights.
The Zug was under NATO command, and so where the players, although the tone of the game was more like the German Army during the Fall of Berlin. Orders were vague, contradictory and often out of touch with the situation, the players fought to keep the unit alive.
This sort of unit, like a ship or powerful base, is too much for players and stops them 'adventuring' and makes them mere managers. So they had it loaned to them using the 'Patron' method from Traveller, which needed to allow starships into a game without unbalancing it.
But, if your PCs will not tolerate control or outside restraint, then I wouldn't give them something like a Zug.
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Targan 12-01-2005, 12:12 AM "But, if your PCs will not tolerate control or outside restraint, then I wouldn't give them something like a Zug."
Its not so much that they won't tolerate outside restraint, its more like they don't engage in restraint. Period.
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ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 12:17 AM LOL!
I have the same problem with my new group, but I suppose it's not up to me to judge them on what makes them happy as players. In fact, two of them chainsawed an NPC in half in another GMs game.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think!
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DeaconR 12-01-2005, 09:40 AM Very nice write up Chalkline. What was the adventure/campaign you used this for?
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graebardeII 12-01-2005, 02:34 PM Of course, they nearly always fought main force warfare but still got called REMFs when on leave in Germany, which caused a lot of fights.
We got a leave in Germany? Damn I must have slept through it. LOL
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ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 02:56 PM (Barde, it was where you had the bar fight with the SF guys, and your numbers and ferocity prevailed over their arrogance. Paris banging the guy's head against the table edge and Lee dive tackling off the stairs were highlights, I think JD was at Brigade.)
It was in 'Schlactebrucke', our Play by E-Mail campaign that ran for years, we had at one time twenty players in the platoon and ran at two turns a week (initially three). Unfortunately, I started working on remote pipelines and was too tired for months on end to post right, and the game petered out after a few years. At one time we advanced about three days of constant fighting in six months real time :)
The system was Cyberpunk 2020 with a modified medical house rule, and the theme was 'Everyday People at War', there were no SF or esoteric MOS. All PCs were ordinary US soldiers, nearly all privates, in an unglamorous rear area unit. Of course, after four years of the apocalypse war, they were the hardest soldiers that ever walked the earth.
The game ran on it's superb players, who's level of interaction kept everything at a level greater than the sum of it's parts, and made it easy to sit down and right for a few hours twice a week.
I made a lot of mistakes, one day I think I'd like to go back and redo Sb, gathering original PCs that wandered off and try exploring new stories, but unfortunately with the current world situation I find it difficult to write about soldiering when real people I know are in real danger.
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Targan 12-02-2005, 12:06 AM I quite like the "Friday Night Firefight" system from CP2020, and I have used chunks of the CP2020 lifepath system for character generation in Gunmaster:2000. I converted the entire CP2020 game to Gunmaster, and the hardest part was converting every weapon in the Blackhand's weapons book using Guns, Guns, Guns.
I agree, in a good T:2000 game, the players determine the quality of the game, they really do,
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DeaconR 12-02-2005, 08:43 AM That sounds like it was an intense game Chalkline. However kudos as well to gms like yourself who are able to keep such players interested. Recently my own players paid me enough compliments to make me blush.
I would suggest btw that not gaming because people are fighting for real is...well not a necessary attitude. People are ALWAYS fighting, dying, suffering somewhere. I have found that if anything good gaming and writing not only can make you more sensitive to real life but also is a much needed cathartic release at times. I have for instance urged people when they see unpleasant news to use that as a reminder that our own actions are important, to get more involved in the community or in whatever good causes they can most readily lend themselves to but also to learn to cherish all the more the blessings we have. In one of the courses I am teaching at the Bible College it strongly advises that good works wither when spirits do. In other words, in the midst of doing good works and being mindful of others don't neglect your own enjoyment of life and your own rest.
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TR 12-03-2005, 11:38 AM Trains are always a viable possibility, but lets face it not only do you need the maintenance crews for the trains, but your going to have to go out to the rail yards as well as repairing miles of tracks. That means break out the gandy dancers once more to straighten out the tracklines before the trains go on ahead...
Riverine traffic is a big possibility in the mid-west region as well, during the War of 1812 riverine traffic was how we resupplied forces in the South so definately this would be another means of trade.
Of course the obvious one would be supply trains drawn by horses, mules, or anything else, yep just like in the pioneer days so circling the wagons with your M-16A2 would be a real sight if you got into trouble. You could use the highways and roads if you wanted a straight shot but one would think these areas would be watched more by spies (civgov, milgov, new america, etc) and bandits... so going off road might be a safer bet.
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graebardeII 12-04-2005, 08:15 PM One vehicle I very rarely see mentioned if at all when everyone talks about transportation is the tractor-semitrailer. With ALL the trucks on the highway, WHY would you want to mess with military vehicles. I think there would be many, many tractor-trailer rigs with a pletoria of road names being used by the military. Older models could run with out electronics, newere ones are another story, but no harder to rig than the military vehicles for sure.
The advantage of the s/t is more weight hauled by one motive power. With the use of trailer-dollys you can make a land-train (which I'm sure our friends from Oz are familiar with). I'm not talking about the simple double- or triple- short trailers you see in the US, but post-oops, one tractor of 700hp pulling three or four 53-footers. OF course they have limitations, but still picture a truck with say two vans, a tanker, and maybe a flat. Cargo can be your choice, food, fuel and maybe large equipment to a settlement/base/outpost. Perhaps several such vehicles with escorts. Since they are heavy, and roads are not well maintained, one or more of the trucks is hauling bridging/enginner equipment. Persons can be hauled in the vans as well, perhaps in specially modified trailers such as they use at the basic training centers we called cattle-cars for obvious reasons. Trailers vary in length from about 20' to 53', in a variety of types, in varying capacities.
Note: a 'perfect' escort for this 'convoy' would be gun-trucks :)
Grae
Fleet Manager for a trucking company.
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Targan 12-04-2005, 11:54 PM I have seen here in Aust hydraulically-deployed bolt-on systems fitted to four wheel drive vehicles which allow them to run on railway lines, operated by mining companies. I assume similar systems are used the world over. This would be a handy thing for smaller vehicles operated by a PC party, especially if the rail route being used is known to be well patrolled, otherwise safe and in passable condition, and if a method could be found to connect one or more cargo carriages to the vehicle, its cargo/towing capacity could be greatly increased compared to road use. Fuel consumption would be lower, too. Anyone have personal knowledge of the systems I am talking about?
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ReHerakhte 12-05-2005, 02:21 AM G'Day All,
The following are some entries I have for shipping containers from my equipment list, I got them originally from Aether Traveller at http://www.reocities.com/harrisgwjr/aethertrav.html but although I wanted to post the links to the original entries, trawling through the site for a bit today, I can't find them (although some pages are not avialable for access at the moment, probably due to bandwidth usage).
And although I have modified the entries a little, all credit for them goes to Gerry Harris, the owner of the Aether Traveller site.
Cheers,
Kevin
Shipping Containers
20' Shipping Container: AKA 'seatainer', this is a standard, 20 foot long shipping container as used for bulk cargo transport on ships, trains or trucks. Metric dimensions are 16 x 2.4 x 2.6 (Length, Width, Height) and it has 37.44m of internal volume. During the 1990s other uses where found for these containers and with suitable modifications they could be found in use as portable offices, portable workshops, portable bath/toilet facilities or temporary storage facilities. Made from sheet steel that gives AV 1 to anything inside the container.
Wt: 2900.0kg
Price: $1725 (V/V)
40' Shipping Container: Basically a double length version of the container described above. Metric dimensions are 112 x 2.4 x 2.6 (L, W, H) and it has 74.88m of internal volume. Gives AV 1 protection to any contents.
Wt: 5300.0kg
Price: $2325 (V/V)
45' Shipping Container: A slightly longer version of the 40' container described above. Metric dimensions are 113.5 x 2.4 x 2.6 (L, W, H) and it has 84.24m of internal volume. Gives AV 1 protection to any contents.
Wt: 5900.0kg
Price: $2475 (C/C)
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Targan 12-05-2005, 02:25 AM Cool info, thanks. Which sized container is the one used in the palletised loading system for the HEMTT trucks operated by the US military? Mostly-submerged shipping containers are a great hazard for inclusion in maritime encounter tables in T2K, and in RL they are common causes of hull damage for boats and ships which collide with them. One of the boats competing in the Round The World Yacht Race suffered serious hull damage last week in such a collision.
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ChalkLine 12-05-2005, 05:00 AM I'd like to mention the serious steel (non-corrosive) that containers are made of, I've seen a four ton forkilift lose control and ram it's tines into one, but not penetrate them. While not up to AFV standards, this is the metal object infatry should be considering making long term fielf fortifications from.
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graebardeII 12-05-2005, 05:15 AM Cool info, thanks. Which sized container is the one used in the palletised loading system for the HEMTT trucks operated by the US military?
US military has 20' containers called MILVANs. These are the most common type used by the military (along with commercial vans). MILVANs are two types, one which is heavier used primarily for ammo shipments. MILVAN construction is heavier all-around than most commercial vans, as they get a heck of a lot rougher treatment than commercial vans generally speaking.
The military also has a smaller container that is about 8x8x8 called a CONEX. These are used by units for storage as well as unit movements. In theater, the boxes are often used for bunkers as well (though they are not suppose to be). Every unit I was in for twelve years had at least one of these boxes for storage (usually for flamables and junk).
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Targan 12-05-2005, 05:20 AM Thanks for the clarification, GraebardeII, I had heard of CONEX containers and their use as bunkers. The system I use has defined armour values for a variety of materials based on cross section thickness, any idea of the thickness of MILVAN and CONEX skins?
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graebardeII 12-05-2005, 05:23 AM I don't but will see what I can dig up. I do know they are thicker than the average commercial tin-boxes.
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