kato13
01-22-2010, 12:51 AM
ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 06:52 PM Has anyone added any new house rules, used alternate systems or tried any new concepts out lately?
********************
kcdusk 12-01-2005, 07:11 PM Well, I've got a few. One that comes to mind is
NPC hit points
Head 7
Chest 20
Other areas 15
PC
Head con *1.5
Chest CON+STR * 2
CON+STR * 1.5
Weapons do (DAM*3)+(DAM D6), so a sniper rifle with DAM of 4 does (4*3) + (4D6) damage, wich is 12+4D6.
Got some others, this the sort of thing you after? Will put some others up when i get back to work
********************
ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 07:14 PM This is exactly the sort of thing we have to look at, as after playing the game for 20 years you start to get a bit entrenched in your thinking!
Out of the T2K rules, the only thing I use unmodified now are the disease rules, I've ported the whole thing over to Cyberpunk. Targan is our local GunMaster prophet, and I've even heard if d20 T2K games.
********************
kcdusk 12-01-2005, 09:11 PM The changes i gave for hit points and weapon damage above was based on two thoughts.
1) it made it realistic for one round from a heavy gun (based on damage 4) to seriously would an NPC with average rolls. For example damage (4*3)+(4D6, which is an average of 14) gives an average damage of 28 points, hitting an NPC with 20 chest points means a serious wound. I just thought it was "right" for one round to be able to really hurt, we all know v2.2 rules mean you need multiple hits to bring someone down.
2) with hit points it means NPC's can be seriously hurt by weapons and PC's do still have more hit points themselves, to give them an advantage because PC's are generally more hardy than your normal PC, because PC's are normally outnumbered by NPC's and PC's should still have some advantage - it is a game after all.
NPC stats
Elite NPC initiative 5, Attribute 8 Asset 14
Vet NPC initiative 4, Attribute 5 Asset 11
Exp NPC initiative 3, Attribute 3 Asset 9
Nov NPC initiative 1 Attribute 1 Asset 6
On a roll of 5 or 6 on a D6 you can add 1 to both attribute and Asset.
Prone
If a character is prone, the to hit process is unchanged and location is D10
1 head
2 chest
3 arm
4 leg
5 - 10 is a miss
Initiative
NPC initiative
+
PST/Rev/SMG 6
Shotgun/Assult rifle 4
Battle rifle 3
Sniper/sporting rifles 2
GPMG/others 1
+
D8
highest goes first.
Urban fighting effects
Difficult to locate sources of sound; 1 level harder to spot opposition
Highly fatiguing in rubble/city; 1 fatigue level per hour on patrol
lots of cover; if PC's shot at they have 1-4 hard cover 5-6 soft cover (level harder to hit) 7-8 no cover.
Range of encounter D10
1 D10m (essentially bumped into each other)
2 D20m
3 D4*10m
4 D10*10m
5 D10*25m
6 D10*50m
7 D10*75m
8 D10*100m
Random Encounter List
Booby trap (diff or form to spot, hand grenage on a string kind of thing)
Claymore mine (diff or form to spot)
loose random item (number items 1- whatever and roll dice for lost item)
loose D6 items (same as above but loose many items, just reflects things breaking in the field or being lost at night)
PC injury (roll for location, 1-5 scratch 6-8 slight wound 9-10 serious wound)
Navigation check, if failed PC is lost
PC is surprised, normal encounter roll but encounter automatically surprises the group (saves elite players always getting the jump)
Loose food and drink
search party with dogs is trackiing the PC's
Mortar observes the PC's
radio breaks down
PC's are delayed 1D6 hours, days or 4 hour periods (sometimes time is a factor in games, this can put some pressure on!)
Sniper engages the party
********************
Grimace 12-01-2005, 09:55 PM Ummm... Yes.
But if I told you, I'd have to kill you. Plus I'd get in trouble. :nono:
********************
Targan 12-01-2005, 11:43 PM I can see already that some of you guys (Kcdusk in particular) have done some great work enhancing the 2.2 rules. Methinks my assumptions about lack of realism may have been a tad hasty. Chalkline, D20 T:2000? Blasphemy, I tell you! Sounds like the game I would be forced to play in hell.
In answer to the thread topic, I have dabbled with an alternate system, I may have mentioned it (he he, chortle).
Sorry, couldn't resist!
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 01:41 AM Aghr Targen - you jokester!
We all want a realistic game i guess, we make do with what we have. I dont have any good Hand to Hand rules, homebrew or othewise. These always seem hard to come by.
I'm also trying to work on what cover, if any, PC or NPC's have when an encounter occurs. For woods, urban, hills and even open land, i want to come up with some tables to use after you roll for an encounter. Experienced soldiers will have more chance of being in or near hard cover or obscured ... rookies will always be in the open. But i dont know what attribute or skill to use to reflect this.
So even if PC's surpise an NPC, if the NPC is vetran or elite he may be seen but also be obscured or behind heavy cover. Same with PC's, if they are surprised i want the more experienced PC to have more chance of cover than just any ol'd PC.
Even if an expereinced PC is using cover ... if he has a bad roll it means he is uncovered from the direction of the encounter ...
Hard cover in an open field will be hard even for elite (though possible, think of a nice big stump, or rabbit hole eroded so it provides enough room for someone to sit in) while even in a rubbled urban setting a novice PC could find hard cover or be obscured some of the time.
********************
Targan 12-02-2005, 01:53 AM I see what you are saying about cover and surprise, but why would an elite PC agree to walk across a barren field in an area which is not considered secure? Walking along a drainage ditch, stone perimeter wall or hedge would have to be the way to go. Novice PCs might well want to stay in cover, but would often choose a path with less cover because it is easier to traverse (same goes for walking along trails, which elite PCs would rarely do but novice PCs would do without a second thought).
Even if an elite PC is spotted, he has probably spaced himself sufficiently to reduce the risk of others in his party being bumped at the same time. If the enemy is particularly canny, they may delay opening up on opponents they recognise as being inexperienced, in the hope of sighting someone important like the patrol commander, radio operator or LMG crew.
The system I use has eyesight, hearing and smell/taste stats, all of which affect Awareness skill. Stealth skill is aided if the character is wearing camouflage appropriate to the environment (making overwhites a must in snow-covered areas).
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 02:16 AM sometimes you just gotta cross that dang field ...
the houserule would be all about PC/NPC's having cover at hand when an encounter occurs. Using random encounter tables you come across 6+D6 soldiers. yeahhhhh .... but what are they doing, how many can you see? How many have cover or not? Even for PC's who get spotted it shouldnt mean the NPC's can open up on them with no modifiers. Sure, a PC might be spotted but they might also have good or even great cover. Anyway, sure you get the idea, its just an expanded encounter table i need to put together. This thread is about house rules so when i have those tables i'll post here.
********************
Targan 12-02-2005, 02:29 AM How about a two-axis table, with experience levels on one axis and terrain types on the other? Each box could contain a percentage chance for a character to have visual cover. There could be a list of general modifiers which could be applied to all results, modifying the chance of being seen based on range to target, weather/light conditions, spotter visual aids, the size of the party the spotted character is moving with, whether or not the spotter has an elevated position, and whether or not the spotted character has appropriately camouflaged clothing.
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 03:16 AM Sounds great, post that table even in a draft form if you like ;-) Yeah, i have some tables but am not happy with any of them yet. That is the idea for tables though.
This guy crossing the field, you dont always get a choice. You have to cross the field OK? I think an elite NPC could cross it but still have more chance to not be seen and/or have cover than a novice. The elite would be crouched, trot a ways, crouch, watch, wait, crawl some, wait. The novice wanders across, drops his pak and takes a leak, picks up a stone and throws it at some birds ... you get the picture. Choosing to cross the field or not is one decision, but once you choose to cross the field an elite would do it very differently to a novice and be harder to spot and have better cover.
********************
Targan 12-02-2005, 03:16 AM Kcdusk, with reference to the heavy gun damage you suggested, perhaps 2d12 rather than 4d6, to increase the probabilities for maximum/minimum damage results, and reduce the minimum damage (allowing for a graze). The guy who founded Delta Force, Col Charlie Beckwith, served in Vietnam until he was shot through the abdomen by a 12.7mm round while a passenger in a chopper, and he not only survived but when medical staff at an Army hospital decided nothing could be done for him, he physically grabbed a Doctor and threatened to kick ass if they didn't prep him for surgery immediately! Big rounds like that tend not to tumble or fragment, so on occassion they can pass right through a person without causing all that much damage.
The suggestion of an encounter table result of player injury, perhaps and initiative roll and/or an agility check might be in order to give the character a chance to avoid whatever hazard has been encountered.
Some other encounter table results worth considering are from the Harnmaster encounter tables: pack/riding animal becomes lame, food or ammunition becomes tainted/spoiled, dispute/argument within party (probably involving or initiated by one or more NPCs), and party finds tracks/spoor.
********************
weswood 12-02-2005, 06:52 AM When starting a game, instead of the players rolling for vehicles, I plan on giving them a "Vehicle Allotment", a $10,000 grant per player, to purchase vehicles, trailers, and vehicle tools. With this, I can somewhat control what the character's start with, I don't want a heavily armed group to begin with. A HMMWV or two, maybe a truck with a still. This also allows the players to get what THEY want to a degree. The $10k could be modified upward or downward based on your own campaigns, and the number of players.
Wes
********************
Twilight2000V3 12-02-2005, 07:26 AM Change Damage from D6 to D10. That ought to do the trick.
Also... starting $$
Officer - $5,000
Enlisted - $10,000
Vehicle fund - $0
Also change the fuel rules. Alcohol now burns like Diesel or Gas (still cant run in jet Aircraft. However, Double the time and triple the cost it takes to make fuel. Adn if teh vehicle isnt a diesel engine double breakdowns.
Max
********************
Badbru 12-02-2005, 12:11 PM Admittedly this comes from my TNE games though the rules are supposedly the same as T2K v2.2 (which I don't have)
Initiative
Bear in mind in TNE stats can range from 1 to a theoretical though extreemly rare and unlikely 15.
Agility, to represent speed of action, plus Intelligence, to represent speed of thought, plus the 1d6 roll, divided by 5. Round down for civillians up for military type careers, add the +1 multiple terms in certain careers allow.
Joe Average; Agl 7 + Int 7 + 1d6 of 3 civillian =17/5< = init 3
Joe Average; Agl 7 + Int 7 + 1d6 of 3 Military =17/5> = init 4
Joe Average; Agl 7 + Int 7 + 1d6 of 3 Spec forces= 17/5> + 1 = init 5
Another variation is to determine initiative as you like but have each side, or character, roll 1d6 per turn and add it to their init and re determine order on a per turn basis. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you are distracted.
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 07:25 PM Anyone with HtH house rules? Hard to find a decent set of them.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 12-02-2005, 08:37 PM I upped the HtH damage to your dam rating plus a D10 - even if you've no real training you might land a lucky blow. I haven't tried it yet, but I'll let you know how it works out.
********************
jtr 12-02-2005, 08:53 PM Change Damage from D6 to D10. That ought to do the trick.
I like that idea. I think I will steal it. :nerd:
Cheers
John
********************
Targan 12-03-2005, 06:38 AM Yes, I have some very functional HtH rules. Anyone surprised?
********************
Antenna 12-03-2005, 06:54 AM Well, I got my own concept on T2k in rule way
UnXd6-rules (http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/pdf/houserules-unxd6.pdf)
My players like it couse I also do freeform anytime I need to :)
Still this aint a bulletproof system.... all those rules from 2.2 that aint covered in my rules I try to use.
Also my two oldest players play thru internet with webcam and microphone/speakers... So I think I got a good GM style or gang or maybe both :)
Antenna
********************
********************
kcdusk 12-01-2005, 07:11 PM Well, I've got a few. One that comes to mind is
NPC hit points
Head 7
Chest 20
Other areas 15
PC
Head con *1.5
Chest CON+STR * 2
CON+STR * 1.5
Weapons do (DAM*3)+(DAM D6), so a sniper rifle with DAM of 4 does (4*3) + (4D6) damage, wich is 12+4D6.
Got some others, this the sort of thing you after? Will put some others up when i get back to work
********************
ChalkLine 12-01-2005, 07:14 PM This is exactly the sort of thing we have to look at, as after playing the game for 20 years you start to get a bit entrenched in your thinking!
Out of the T2K rules, the only thing I use unmodified now are the disease rules, I've ported the whole thing over to Cyberpunk. Targan is our local GunMaster prophet, and I've even heard if d20 T2K games.
********************
kcdusk 12-01-2005, 09:11 PM The changes i gave for hit points and weapon damage above was based on two thoughts.
1) it made it realistic for one round from a heavy gun (based on damage 4) to seriously would an NPC with average rolls. For example damage (4*3)+(4D6, which is an average of 14) gives an average damage of 28 points, hitting an NPC with 20 chest points means a serious wound. I just thought it was "right" for one round to be able to really hurt, we all know v2.2 rules mean you need multiple hits to bring someone down.
2) with hit points it means NPC's can be seriously hurt by weapons and PC's do still have more hit points themselves, to give them an advantage because PC's are generally more hardy than your normal PC, because PC's are normally outnumbered by NPC's and PC's should still have some advantage - it is a game after all.
NPC stats
Elite NPC initiative 5, Attribute 8 Asset 14
Vet NPC initiative 4, Attribute 5 Asset 11
Exp NPC initiative 3, Attribute 3 Asset 9
Nov NPC initiative 1 Attribute 1 Asset 6
On a roll of 5 or 6 on a D6 you can add 1 to both attribute and Asset.
Prone
If a character is prone, the to hit process is unchanged and location is D10
1 head
2 chest
3 arm
4 leg
5 - 10 is a miss
Initiative
NPC initiative
+
PST/Rev/SMG 6
Shotgun/Assult rifle 4
Battle rifle 3
Sniper/sporting rifles 2
GPMG/others 1
+
D8
highest goes first.
Urban fighting effects
Difficult to locate sources of sound; 1 level harder to spot opposition
Highly fatiguing in rubble/city; 1 fatigue level per hour on patrol
lots of cover; if PC's shot at they have 1-4 hard cover 5-6 soft cover (level harder to hit) 7-8 no cover.
Range of encounter D10
1 D10m (essentially bumped into each other)
2 D20m
3 D4*10m
4 D10*10m
5 D10*25m
6 D10*50m
7 D10*75m
8 D10*100m
Random Encounter List
Booby trap (diff or form to spot, hand grenage on a string kind of thing)
Claymore mine (diff or form to spot)
loose random item (number items 1- whatever and roll dice for lost item)
loose D6 items (same as above but loose many items, just reflects things breaking in the field or being lost at night)
PC injury (roll for location, 1-5 scratch 6-8 slight wound 9-10 serious wound)
Navigation check, if failed PC is lost
PC is surprised, normal encounter roll but encounter automatically surprises the group (saves elite players always getting the jump)
Loose food and drink
search party with dogs is trackiing the PC's
Mortar observes the PC's
radio breaks down
PC's are delayed 1D6 hours, days or 4 hour periods (sometimes time is a factor in games, this can put some pressure on!)
Sniper engages the party
********************
Grimace 12-01-2005, 09:55 PM Ummm... Yes.
But if I told you, I'd have to kill you. Plus I'd get in trouble. :nono:
********************
Targan 12-01-2005, 11:43 PM I can see already that some of you guys (Kcdusk in particular) have done some great work enhancing the 2.2 rules. Methinks my assumptions about lack of realism may have been a tad hasty. Chalkline, D20 T:2000? Blasphemy, I tell you! Sounds like the game I would be forced to play in hell.
In answer to the thread topic, I have dabbled with an alternate system, I may have mentioned it (he he, chortle).
Sorry, couldn't resist!
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 01:41 AM Aghr Targen - you jokester!
We all want a realistic game i guess, we make do with what we have. I dont have any good Hand to Hand rules, homebrew or othewise. These always seem hard to come by.
I'm also trying to work on what cover, if any, PC or NPC's have when an encounter occurs. For woods, urban, hills and even open land, i want to come up with some tables to use after you roll for an encounter. Experienced soldiers will have more chance of being in or near hard cover or obscured ... rookies will always be in the open. But i dont know what attribute or skill to use to reflect this.
So even if PC's surpise an NPC, if the NPC is vetran or elite he may be seen but also be obscured or behind heavy cover. Same with PC's, if they are surprised i want the more experienced PC to have more chance of cover than just any ol'd PC.
Even if an expereinced PC is using cover ... if he has a bad roll it means he is uncovered from the direction of the encounter ...
Hard cover in an open field will be hard even for elite (though possible, think of a nice big stump, or rabbit hole eroded so it provides enough room for someone to sit in) while even in a rubbled urban setting a novice PC could find hard cover or be obscured some of the time.
********************
Targan 12-02-2005, 01:53 AM I see what you are saying about cover and surprise, but why would an elite PC agree to walk across a barren field in an area which is not considered secure? Walking along a drainage ditch, stone perimeter wall or hedge would have to be the way to go. Novice PCs might well want to stay in cover, but would often choose a path with less cover because it is easier to traverse (same goes for walking along trails, which elite PCs would rarely do but novice PCs would do without a second thought).
Even if an elite PC is spotted, he has probably spaced himself sufficiently to reduce the risk of others in his party being bumped at the same time. If the enemy is particularly canny, they may delay opening up on opponents they recognise as being inexperienced, in the hope of sighting someone important like the patrol commander, radio operator or LMG crew.
The system I use has eyesight, hearing and smell/taste stats, all of which affect Awareness skill. Stealth skill is aided if the character is wearing camouflage appropriate to the environment (making overwhites a must in snow-covered areas).
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 02:16 AM sometimes you just gotta cross that dang field ...
the houserule would be all about PC/NPC's having cover at hand when an encounter occurs. Using random encounter tables you come across 6+D6 soldiers. yeahhhhh .... but what are they doing, how many can you see? How many have cover or not? Even for PC's who get spotted it shouldnt mean the NPC's can open up on them with no modifiers. Sure, a PC might be spotted but they might also have good or even great cover. Anyway, sure you get the idea, its just an expanded encounter table i need to put together. This thread is about house rules so when i have those tables i'll post here.
********************
Targan 12-02-2005, 02:29 AM How about a two-axis table, with experience levels on one axis and terrain types on the other? Each box could contain a percentage chance for a character to have visual cover. There could be a list of general modifiers which could be applied to all results, modifying the chance of being seen based on range to target, weather/light conditions, spotter visual aids, the size of the party the spotted character is moving with, whether or not the spotter has an elevated position, and whether or not the spotted character has appropriately camouflaged clothing.
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 03:16 AM Sounds great, post that table even in a draft form if you like ;-) Yeah, i have some tables but am not happy with any of them yet. That is the idea for tables though.
This guy crossing the field, you dont always get a choice. You have to cross the field OK? I think an elite NPC could cross it but still have more chance to not be seen and/or have cover than a novice. The elite would be crouched, trot a ways, crouch, watch, wait, crawl some, wait. The novice wanders across, drops his pak and takes a leak, picks up a stone and throws it at some birds ... you get the picture. Choosing to cross the field or not is one decision, but once you choose to cross the field an elite would do it very differently to a novice and be harder to spot and have better cover.
********************
Targan 12-02-2005, 03:16 AM Kcdusk, with reference to the heavy gun damage you suggested, perhaps 2d12 rather than 4d6, to increase the probabilities for maximum/minimum damage results, and reduce the minimum damage (allowing for a graze). The guy who founded Delta Force, Col Charlie Beckwith, served in Vietnam until he was shot through the abdomen by a 12.7mm round while a passenger in a chopper, and he not only survived but when medical staff at an Army hospital decided nothing could be done for him, he physically grabbed a Doctor and threatened to kick ass if they didn't prep him for surgery immediately! Big rounds like that tend not to tumble or fragment, so on occassion they can pass right through a person without causing all that much damage.
The suggestion of an encounter table result of player injury, perhaps and initiative roll and/or an agility check might be in order to give the character a chance to avoid whatever hazard has been encountered.
Some other encounter table results worth considering are from the Harnmaster encounter tables: pack/riding animal becomes lame, food or ammunition becomes tainted/spoiled, dispute/argument within party (probably involving or initiated by one or more NPCs), and party finds tracks/spoor.
********************
weswood 12-02-2005, 06:52 AM When starting a game, instead of the players rolling for vehicles, I plan on giving them a "Vehicle Allotment", a $10,000 grant per player, to purchase vehicles, trailers, and vehicle tools. With this, I can somewhat control what the character's start with, I don't want a heavily armed group to begin with. A HMMWV or two, maybe a truck with a still. This also allows the players to get what THEY want to a degree. The $10k could be modified upward or downward based on your own campaigns, and the number of players.
Wes
********************
Twilight2000V3 12-02-2005, 07:26 AM Change Damage from D6 to D10. That ought to do the trick.
Also... starting $$
Officer - $5,000
Enlisted - $10,000
Vehicle fund - $0
Also change the fuel rules. Alcohol now burns like Diesel or Gas (still cant run in jet Aircraft. However, Double the time and triple the cost it takes to make fuel. Adn if teh vehicle isnt a diesel engine double breakdowns.
Max
********************
Badbru 12-02-2005, 12:11 PM Admittedly this comes from my TNE games though the rules are supposedly the same as T2K v2.2 (which I don't have)
Initiative
Bear in mind in TNE stats can range from 1 to a theoretical though extreemly rare and unlikely 15.
Agility, to represent speed of action, plus Intelligence, to represent speed of thought, plus the 1d6 roll, divided by 5. Round down for civillians up for military type careers, add the +1 multiple terms in certain careers allow.
Joe Average; Agl 7 + Int 7 + 1d6 of 3 civillian =17/5< = init 3
Joe Average; Agl 7 + Int 7 + 1d6 of 3 Military =17/5> = init 4
Joe Average; Agl 7 + Int 7 + 1d6 of 3 Spec forces= 17/5> + 1 = init 5
Another variation is to determine initiative as you like but have each side, or character, roll 1d6 per turn and add it to their init and re determine order on a per turn basis. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you are distracted.
********************
kcdusk 12-02-2005, 07:25 PM Anyone with HtH house rules? Hard to find a decent set of them.
********************
TiggerCCW UK 12-02-2005, 08:37 PM I upped the HtH damage to your dam rating plus a D10 - even if you've no real training you might land a lucky blow. I haven't tried it yet, but I'll let you know how it works out.
********************
jtr 12-02-2005, 08:53 PM Change Damage from D6 to D10. That ought to do the trick.
I like that idea. I think I will steal it. :nerd:
Cheers
John
********************
Targan 12-03-2005, 06:38 AM Yes, I have some very functional HtH rules. Anyone surprised?
********************
Antenna 12-03-2005, 06:54 AM Well, I got my own concept on T2k in rule way
UnXd6-rules (http://www.ludd.ltu.se/users/antenna/pdf/houserules-unxd6.pdf)
My players like it couse I also do freeform anytime I need to :)
Still this aint a bulletproof system.... all those rules from 2.2 that aint covered in my rules I try to use.
Also my two oldest players play thru internet with webcam and microphone/speakers... So I think I got a good GM style or gang or maybe both :)
Antenna
********************