Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[Targan]

Not just isolated, but faced with something clearly outside of their experience and training., but maintaining discipline anyway. The Colonial Marines in Aliens come off very poorly to the troops in Dog Soldiers.

Aliens is my favourite film of all time. It was sad that the Colonial Marine squad in that film was led by a green new Lt. He was a total loser and they should have fragged him at the earliest opportunity. If they hadn't lost Sgt Apone so early on they might have done better, he was very crusty. You have to admit, the machine gunner Vasquez and Cpl Hicks were very effective. The other machine gunner, Drake, was also hard as nails but didn't do so well once he was covered in acid then set on fire.

[Legbreaker]

Drake certainly kicked arse up until that point with both machinegun and then flamer.

Speaking of game mechanics, T2K tends to punish those who don't follow common sense. Aliens takes that idea and runs another mile or two with it.

[kato13]

the machine gunner Vasquez

My favorite piece of trivia about Aliens is that the actress who played Vasquez really did show up for the movie audition expecting it to be about illegal aliens. The joke from the film (regarding illegal aliens) was added because of that.

[Targan]

My favorite piece of trivia about Aliens is that the actress who played Vasquez really did show up for the movie audition expecting it to be about illegal aliens. The joke from the film (regarding illegal aliens) was added because of that.

Hah! I didn't know that, thanks. Very funny!

I love this quote from Al Matthews who played Sgt Apone - "I spent six years in the United States Marine Corps; I hold thirteen combat awards and decorations, including two purple hearts. I was the first black Marine in the 1st Marine Division in Viet Nam, to be meritoriously promoted to the rank of sergeant; I served with Kilo Battery, Fourth Battalion, 11th Marines, 1st Marine Division, of that I am very proud."

[pmulcahy11b]

To quote graebarde from the original post: -
graebardeII 12-19-2005, 08:07 PM
...Actually it was Last of the Dogmen starring Tom Berenger. The People were Cheyenne, Northern Cheyenne to be more specific...

grae
********************

As for Aliens, it would not have mattered who led the team, who survived or even what military they were from, James Cameron wanted a gunfight/survive-against-the-odds movie so things were always going to happen in the way they did. If it had been realistic it would have been a whole lot less entertaining.
The other trivia piece about Vasquez is that she wasn't even played by a latina but by Jenette Goldstein, who might be remembered from yet another Cameron movie, John Connor's foster mother in Terminator 2

Yes, IIRC, she's actually a freckle-faced redhead. I remember reading in People that the makeup artists had fits covering up her freckles.

[Targan]

The other trivia piece about Vasquez is that she wasn't even played by a latina but by Jenette Goldstein, who might be remembered from yet another Cameron movie, John Connor's foster mother in Terminator 2

The 1987 film Near Dark has several of the actors from Aliens in it including Jenette Goldstein, Lance Henriksen and Bill Paxton. Not a bad film IMO.

The Wikipedia article on Aliens shows the full names of the Colonial Marines (many of which I didn't know) and its interesting that the writers used the actors' real first names for the characters they played.

[Legbreaker]

Probably made it easier on the actors. If they made a slip and used their real name, there would be no need to edit it out or reshoot the scene.

[Targan]

Probably made it easier on the actors. If they made a slip and used their real name, there would be no need to edit it out or reshoot the scene.

That's what I thought too. In the original script, before filming started, the characters were probably only referred to by their surnames. There would be no downside to writing in their first names as the actors' first names.

[pmulcahy11b]

That's what I thought too. In the original script, before filming started, the characters were probably only referred to by their surnames. There would be no downside to writing in their first names as the actors' first names.

Bishop's full name was Lance Bishop 341-B; sort of makes you think how many androids were based on the original Lance Bishop's template. And it has to be an ego trip -- having a series of Androids, with far better abilities than you, but wearing your face and body.

I also remember the scene where he's about to go down through the tunnels with Bishop and Newt; he's handed a handgun, which he refuses. Makes you wonder after experience with earlier androids, they programmed Asimov's Three Robotic Laws into the androids.

[Targan]

I also remember the scene where he's about to go down through the tunnels with Bishop and Newt; he's handed a handgun, which he refuses. Makes you wonder after experience with earlier androids, they programmed Asimov's Three Robotic Laws into the androids.

I have thought many times about that scene. I don't think his decision was directly related to Asimov's laws of robotics as Bishop wasn't anticipating combat with humans, but possibly indirectly related in that perhaps androids, even androids assigned to military missions, were deliberately not programmed with any direct combat skills.

Then again perhaps Asimov's laws of robotics were precisely the reason he didn't take the pistol - perhaps he thought that by taking it he would be denying the use of one of the few available weapons to the remaining humans, thereby placing them at greater risk. Through reading Ripley's reports on her original alien encounter, his own research in the colony science lab, his own observations and through processes of logic Bishop may have (probably correctly) come to the conclusion that the aliens would be unlikely to attack a non-living object such as himself if it presented no direct threat to them. The queen alien was much smarter than her drones however and obviously did consider Bishop to be a threat or potential threat when she ripped him in half aboard the Sulaco.

[Legbreaker]

Through reading Ripley's reports on her original alien encounter, his own research in the colony science lab, his own observations and through processes of logic Bishop may have (probably correctly) come to the conclusion that the aliens would be unlikely to attack a non-living object such as himself if it presented no direct threat to them.
The book actually describes an encounter Bishop has with aliens while crawling through the pipe. A hole had been torn through the bottom and underneath he sees a horde of the beasts, close enough that they could easily reach him. They notice him, but do nothing - he has no signs of life (beyond movement) and therefore is judged not viable as either a host or food source.

An hour or so later and that decision to let him go comes back to bite them...

[pmulcahy11b]

The queen alien was much smarter than her drones however and obviously did consider Bishop to be a threat or potential threat when she ripped him in half aboard the Sulaco.

I attributed that attack to sheer malice more than anything else.

[copeab]

You have to admit, the machine gunner Vasquez and Cpl Hicks were very effective. The other machine gunner, Drake, was also hard as nails but didn't do so well once he was covered in acid then set on fire.

Drake and Vasquez struck me as quite undisciplined. They had no intention of obeying the order to not have gunfire under the reactor and Drake opened fire on Newt when she first appeared.

[Legbreaker]

Drake and Vasquez struck me as quite undisciplined. They had no intention of obeying the order to not have gunfire under the reactor and Drake opened fire on Newt when she first appeared.


On the other hand, they did have a complete novice for an officer and they themselves had probably been involved in dozens of combat missions. Trust, or more accurately lack of, was definately an issue. Ensuring the machineguns were operable when going under the reactor was obviously a good thing in the short term (it allowed at least a few to escape), but long term was another matter.

Gorman should have explained WHY firing was not allowed and immediately withdrew the marines, re-equipped them with shotguns, flamers and whatever else non-penetrating they had. Sending them onwards with little more than four flamers was just plain criminal.

Can any of us say they wouldn't have done the same as Vasquez and Drake if in a similar situation?

[Targan]

On the other hand, they did have a complete novice for an officer and they themselves had probably been involved in dozens of combat missions. Trust, or more accurately lack of, was definately an issue. Ensuring the machineguns were operable when going under the reactor was obviously a good thing in the short term (it allowed at least a few to escape), but long term was another matter.
I agree. As it turned out though it was the drop ship crashing into the side of the atmosphere processor that caused it to go critical, not the firing of weapons inside.

Gorman should have explained WHY firing was not allowed and immediately withdrew the marines, re-equipped them with shotguns, flamers and whatever else non-penetrating they had. Sending them onwards with little more than four flamers was just plain criminal.
Agreed. Gorman should have thought about the location before sending in the section though. Once they were inside the structure their comms were very patchy. A detailed explanation of why weapons should not be fired inside probably would have been half buried in static once they were in.

Can any of us say they wouldn't have done the same as Vasquez and Drake if in a similar situation?
No. I think Drake and Vasquez did exactly the right thing. Even if they had disrupted the cooling system the facility wouldn't have gone up right away. They all would have had time to get back to the Sulaco and watch the whole facility turn into a glowing glass bowl. Problem solved. Carter Burke was the only one who was insisting that the facility be saved because of the "significant dollar value attached to it". They should have strung him up by the balls at the earliest opportunity.

[Legbreaker]

As it turned out though it was the drop ship crashing into the side of the atmosphere processor that caused it to go critical, not the firing of weapons inside.

Hmm, must be a different movie you're been watching...
The APC was moving away from the processor and from what I can remember the dropship crashed from the rear of the APC (taking it out in the process) and ended up spread across a very wide area of broken, but open ground.

[Targan]

Hmm, must be a different movie you're been watching...
The APC was moving away from the processor and from what I can remember the dropship crashed from the rear of the APC (taking it out in the process) and ended up spread across a very wide area of broken, but open ground.

Yes the dropship hit the APC, then the bulk of it tumbled into the processing plant. I have the extended edition on my hard drive, you can see it quite clearly. Also the write up of the film in Wikipedia suggests that it was the dropship crash rather than firing inside the facility that caused it to go critical. That makes sense when you consider the difference between the energy released by the relatively small amount of firing inside compared to many tonnes of dropship travelling at high speed, plus ordnance, hitting the side of the facility.

[Legbreaker]

Of course a ten millimetre minigrenade (which is effectively what the guns were firing) at a rate of say ten per second is likely to chew through cooling systems and control circuits pretty damn fast....

[copeab]

Of course a ten millimetre minigrenade (which is effectively what the guns were firing) at a rate of say ten per second is likely to chew through cooling systems and control circuits pretty damn fast....

The Colonial Marines Technical Manual lists the pulse rifle as firing 900 10x24mm rpm and the smart gun as firing 1,200 10x28mm rpm.

[Legbreaker]

So roughly twice as fast as an M60 (650 rpm) and equivilant to the MG-42 the movie weapon used as a base.

I'm rather inpressed Jenette Goldstein was able to throw what must have been a rather heavy rig about so effortlessly. The steadicam mount probably helped, but the total weight must have played hell on her knees.

[pmulcahy11b]

So roughly twice as fast as an M60 (650 rpm) and equivilant to the MG-42 the movie weapon used as a base.

I'm rather inpressed Jenette Goldstein was able to throw what must have been a rather heavy rig about so effortlessly. The steadicam mount probably helped, but the total weight must have played hell on her knees.

That's part of why they they chose her over the Latina actresses available -- she had the muscle, but didn't look like a steroid monster.

[pmulcahy11b]

The Colonial Marines Technical Manual lists the pulse rifle as firing 900 10x24mm rpm and the smart gun as firing 1,200 10x28mm rpm.

That's pretty good for a small projectile! In the book they say part of why it's called a Smart Gun is that the rounds are IR-guided, and could be programmed to ignore specific heat signatures (in the book, they were programmed to avoid humans). That projectile has to have a guidance package, small thrust squibs, and still have enough energy to kill its target!

...and I just thought, that might explain the different sound the Smart Gun makes -- it's the guidance thrusters firing. They'd just be tiny little shots of gas.

[Legbreaker]

I'd always thought the guidance was contained within the weapon itself. If there's a risk of hitting an invalid target, the weapon simply doesn't fire until the barrel is pointing elsewhere. Likewise, the weapon doesn't fire until the targeting software believes there's a good chance of hitting a valid target. The device Hicks gave Ripley (and subsequently handed to Newt) as well as the implanted transmitters the colonists had could act as IFF transmitters and the weapon programed not to fire at them.
Would save a LOT of ammo!

The system could be overridden by the operator though and manually fired even at the risk of hitting unintended targets - this allows for covering fire over areas or at concealed targets.

[copeab]

I'm rather inpressed Jenette Goldstein was able to throw what must have been a rather heavy rig about so effortlessly. The steadicam mount probably helped, but the total weight must have played hell on her knees.

The CMTM lists the complete weight of the M56 Smart Gun (including harness and ammo) as just under 18kg.

(perhaps we should split this into an Aliens tread now ;)

[Legbreaker]

The movie prop may have weighed even more which makes her feat even more impressive.

[Targan]

I'd always thought the guidance was contained within the weapon itself.

I'd always assumed that too. I don't own a copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual but I do have a copy of the Aliens RPG packed away somewhere.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'd always assumed that too. I don't own a copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual but I do have a copy of the Aliens RPG packed away somewhere.

I have a PDF version somewhere, but I've never read it. Maybe I should take it with me when I take my mom to her doctor's appointment tomorrow (it'll be a long one; she's getting some sort of special EEG done), but I have to find it first...

[Eddie]

Typical American gung-ho attitudes...

Wow. Nice.

[pmulcahy11b]

Typical American gung-ho attitudes...

I'm reminded of a line from The Golden Child, "Ahh, those wonderful Americans. So much power, and so little idea of what to do with it."

[headquarters]

I'm reminded of a line from The Golden Child, "Ahh, those wonderful Americans. So much power, and so little idea of what to do with it."

"He is like Germany ,ambitious but misunderstood"

[Eddie]

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlwCCWGYOGg) to convey my meaning.

[Raellus]

Wow. And I thought I liked the movie. My uncle gave be a bootlegged VHS copy when I was like 13 and I must have watched it 50 times before going off to college. I've seen it a couple times since. I don't know why, but it just doesn't get old.

Anyone notice the similarities between the Colonial Marines in Aliens and the PMCs in Avatar?

They share attitude/cockiness, powered exoskeleton things, dropships- even the spunky Latina character. There's also the heartless corporation angle. Burke and the Giovanni Ribisi character could be working for the same company (or taken the same business ethics class).

[Legbreaker]

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlwCCWGYOGg) to convey my meaning.

Heh, sarcasm. :D

Anyone notice the similarities between the Colonial Marines in Aliens and the PMCs in Avatar?

They share attitude/cockiness, powered exoskeleton things, dropships- even the spunky Latina character. There's also the heartless corporation angle. Burke and the Giovanni Ribisi character could be working for the same company (or taken the same business ethics class).

ARGH! Spoilers!!!!

:eek:

[copeab]

ARGH! Spoilers!!!!

:eek:

If you watch the official trailer, I don't think any of that is really a spoiler.

[MajorPo]

I always liked to think of 'Mad About You' as the home life of Carter Burke. I know the dating of the series obviously wouldn't match up but the back story it adds gives a certain poignancy to his role

[Webstral]

"Aliens" remains my favorite movie of all time because there is just so much going on in it told in a quality way. I've seen the extended versions, and I have to say I'm glad the theatrical release was released as it was.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole. He received plenty of training, what with several dozen simulated drops. Training only goes so far, though. Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure. His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

Note that as a private, Gorman's not so bad. He plays well with the team when he's no longer in charge. He fights bravely. Had he been obliged to enlist and go on a few missions first, he might have made an effective lieutenant.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Have I beaten this horse into hamburger?

There are other very powerful Vietnam-esque images woven througout "Aliens". The enemy is an archetype of the NLF/NVA. He has inferior technology but superior morale. He uses the terrain to his advantage, striking when the conditions are right for him. He prefers close combat that reduces the effectiveness of American firepower. His internal cohesion is superb. His commitment is superb. His willingness to absorb casualties for the sake of the mission is superb. The attack in which the enemy is crawling through the ceiling is a very nice turnabout of the underground infiltration techniques employed by the NLF/NVA.

Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message.

Webstral

P.S. Of course, there is far more going on in "Aliens" than the military commentary. I find the nuclear family and competing reproductive themes even more fascinating.

[Targan]

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

If the alien drone hadn't wiped out the dropship crew in-flight the damage the smart gunners' fire may or may not have done to the reactor's cooling systems would have been irrelevent anyway because immediately after most of the Colonial Marines are wiped out in the fight in the nest, Cpl Hicks (the ranking Marine still conscious) agreed with Ripley to head back to the Sulaco and nuke the site from orbit. So the same end result would have occurred anyway. Its like Schrodinger's cat. If the dropship hadn't crashed there would have been a nuclear explosion either from the cooling system damage (if indeed the cooling system had been damaged by the Marines' fire) or from a nuclear warhead.

The dropship crashing meant that the mission suddenly became sharply time-critical, also for a variety of reasons. The survivors were almost certain to have been overrun some time that night even if the reactor didn't go critical.

[pmulcahy11b]

I always liked to think of 'Mad About You' as the home life of Carter Burke. I know the dating of the series obviously wouldn't match up but the back story it adds gives a certain poignancy to his role

Don't insult Helen Hunt like that! I wouldn't kick her out of my bed -- I'd tie her to it!

[headquarters]

Aliens as curriculum at military academies..hehe..why not ?

Our system here in Norway ( not that it is anything to break out the champagne for all in all ) revolves around our institutions of military advancement ,and two types of ranks .

1 Commissions : you can get one after schooling .You start out as what we call a cadet or "aspirant" at the NCO school with the typical selection process hardships .
After that is completed -usually 2 months - there is an additional 6 -12 month schooling process.

You are then an NCO of corporal or sgt rank and a mandatory 6-12 month practition /"experience " period ensues at your unit based in country/domestic.

After that ( 12 months -2 years as an NCO) you are given a commission as either a sgt or a 2nd lt.

You can then serve in that capacity formally -but to get platoon command or company command , a furter 2 years of schooling at the national military academy for your branch is needed .You will then end up with a commission as a LT.You are then set for a career at low to mid level -but additional schooling is required to get ranks above captain.

Field commissions : meritious advancement as some call it - able minded and bodied personell might be promoted temporarily to ranks that come with the job that the unit needs filled. Example : a platoon leader might be down , and if the situation dictates ,a replacement is made form say the 2nd LT nr 2 in the platoon -even though he has not gone through military academy until a formal replacement can be deployed .
Or say a private makes squad leader the same way .

As a rule no officer or NCO without "operational experience" ( tours abroad or the whole military academy thing ) are allowed command in combat operations .

Exceptions happen all the time though - including one of my PLT leaders back in 97-98 in my second tour .

He was a cronie of the COY cmdr -and landed his job that way .I would have had no problem with that if he hadnt been a ..well incompetent .

( After all - he was a welcome change from the previous LT who had to be removed from his position -highly competent but just crazy / no judgement).



"Aliens" remains my favorite movie of all time because there is just so much going on in it told in a quality way. I've seen the extended versions, and I have to say I'm glad the theatrical release was released as it was.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole. He received plenty of training, what with several dozen simulated drops. Training only goes so far, though. Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure. His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

Note that as a private, Gorman's not so bad. He plays well with the team when he's no longer in charge. He fights bravely. Had he been obliged to enlist and go on a few missions first, he might have made an effective lieutenant.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Have I beaten this horse into hamburger?

There are other very powerful Vietnam-esque images woven througout "Aliens". The enemy is an archetype of the NLF/NVA. He has inferior technology but superior morale. He uses the terrain to his advantage, striking when the conditions are right for him. He prefers close combat that reduces the effectiveness of American firepower. His internal cohesion is superb. His commitment is superb. His willingness to absorb casualties for the sake of the mission is superb. The attack in which the enemy is crawling through the ceiling is a very nice turnabout of the underground infiltration techniques employed by the NLF/NVA.

Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message.

Webstral

P.S. Of course, there is far more going on in "Aliens" than the military commentary. I find the nuclear family and competing reproductive themes even more fascinating.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.
Personally I agree with you, I'm a little tired of Cameron wishing he could relive Vietnam. He wasn't there so he should just get over it. I will likely wait until Avatar is in the weekly rental bin at my local video store.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message...
Apparently, Australian Army officers from both the Royal Military College and the Officer Cadet School were obliged to watch the 1960s movie 'Zulu' for the same type of reason. I don't know when the practice stopped but since the advent of the Australian Defence Force Academy, it's likely the movie is no longer used to illustrate officers in command.

[Legbreaker]

We were shown one of the Blackadder Goes Forth episodes at Canungra (jungle warfare) because of the extremely accurate way they delivered orders. Seems the writers had done their research.
It was probably the only half hour of the entire course that wasn't crushingly difficult.

[headquarters]

the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers 2nd battallion apparently had some use of the series Sharps Rifles with Sean Bean in educational purposes .

I remember seeing one or two of these when on exchange there at platoon seargent selction - selection course . ( Pre selection )

Selection was in Wales somewhere called the Breacons I believe .

[Eddie]

Wow...in one thread I've had my country insulted for being over-aggressive, trigger-lovers and now had my profession insulted as being tragically flawed for not doing it X way and being riddled with incompetents because they chose to go to college and be leaders first instead of followers first.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole.

Really? Because the US as a whole, and the Army in particular are still stuck in the way we did things in Vietnam?

Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure.

Because you've worked with so many West Point graduates, Web? For the record, I just gave up a company command in the 25th Infantry where I had four 2LTs that I rated. The most competent, tactically sound one I had was a West Point graduate from 2008.

His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

First of all, his job as the commander on the ground is be where he can best control his units and keep SA of the battlefield. The TTP of having the PL in a Bradley/Tank/APC/giant-flying-super-ninja-bot, where he has access to all of the command and control and asset coordination capabilities is a pretty common one. Then, the PSG gets on the ground and fights the fight while the PL controls the fight. That is what Gorman is supposed to do in a fight. However he can best accomplish that is his call. Armchair general it all you want, his platoon, his decision.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience.

Trust and effective command? What about just basic undisciplined individuals that don't want to listen?

Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

All because he's not prior-enlisted. That would have solved everything and negated all of the constraints that he had enforced on him and thereby passed down to them.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm so sick of hearing this. As a Company Commander, with 8 years prior enlisted experience to my 4 years (in April) of commissioned time, this statement is the most frequently stated bullshit that I hear. Enlisted service does absolutely nothing for an officer other than give him an instant ability to relate to his Joes. I do 2 years as a supply clerk, drop an OCS packet, and get commissioned as an Infantry officer. Or an Aviator. Or an Intel officer. My prior enlisted time really helps. I know so much more. He can be a shithead just as easily or be shit hot. In fact, two of the most competent butterbars I've ever worked with or had work for me were 2LTs straight out of West Point, Infantry OBC, and Ranger School, thrown into a platoon and told "Run with it." One of them in combat. One of them in garrison.

Don't bother replying. I've said my piece. I've not attacked anyone personally. And I'm not obtuse enough to think that anything I say here is going to make a switch click in any of your heads and bring about a miraculous, "Oh, yeah, I didn't see it that way before." However, I will refer you back to my intro post in the Military Service thread from several months ago and the fact that I'm a few months shy of 12 years of Active Federal Service in the US Army...and a product of it's horrendous commissioning system.

Yeah, I think I'm done here now.

Deuces.

[Targan]

Wow. So Eddie, why don't you tell us how you really feel? :D

[kato13]

Eddie sorry that your feel insulted. I want you to know you have my respect man.

I often feel insulted on this board as well. It sucks. I really blame it all on one person who has demonstrated very strong anti American feelings. Given the trends I have been seeing in posting I feel eventually he is going to lead to the death of this board.

It is a shame really.

[copeab]

Heinlein, in Starship Troopers (and perhaps elsewhere), presented the idea that no one should be allowed to be an officer without first seeing combat. The problem, of course, is that you can't really do this in a peacetime army. The skills that makes one a great wartime officer aren't quite the same as what makes one a great peacetime officer, either, so you can't really be sure with a peacetime army which officers are really fit for combat command and which aren't until the shooting starts.

[copeab]

The dropship crashing meant that the mission suddenly became sharply time-critical, also for a variety of reasons. The survivors were almost certain to have been overrun some time that night even if the reactor didn't go critical.

IIRC, there was a minimum time for Bishop to get to the transmitter station (the link to the command building also being severed by the crash) and pilot the second drop ship down.

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

[copeab]

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone.


On reflection, Apone doesn't come off so well -- he does a poor job of being a senior NCO faced with a poor officer.

[Targan]

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail?

[Webstral]

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

Webstral

[copeab]

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail?

I think it was the first Marine to get attacked (Deitrich?) who said "Maybe they don't show up on IR", looked directly at one curled up in a wall and turned away, not seeing it.

I'm not quite sure what could have been done about drop ship security. You really couldn't leave any of the Marines behind to guard it (the contingent was already small enough) and, at the time, it seemed like a better idea to have the ship near the colony rather than parked off in the wilderness.

[copeab]

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.


It was either stated or implied that Burke had personally selected Gorman for the mission while the mess hall scene made it clear that Gorman was a new CO for the squad (while other comments made it clear that at least some of the soldiers had served with each other).

[fightingflamingo]

Eddie - sorry you feel that way. I agree with both you and Web about different aspects of the commisioning process in the US Army (19 yr E7 here). I think on balance the process works pretty well in the active component. In the reserve component the OCS grads tend to be better at the O-1 level, not so much because they can relate to their joes better, but rather because they've seen and know how to use their NCO's more effectively, without micro managing them. The micro managing of senior NCO's is something that I think happens with the current US commisioning system, that detracts from the quality of O-1's as they learn to work this out.

That said, the current commisioning system while structured on a the same model as was used during Vietnam, now produces a vastly superior product. Those of us with enlisted service will always be detractors of 2nd LT's, especially those of us who serve or have served as PSG's, and have an active hand in mentoring 2nd LT's into 1st LT's and future company command.

@ Kato - I agree that the tenor of the board has gone down hill, and I think I relate that to the same individual who doesn't seem to care, or get his own offensive behavior. And for my part as an American I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War, as an American I bear moral responsibilty for the fictional global genocide portrayed by GDW, it was my fictional government which prolonged the fictional Sino-Soviet War by supplying the fictional Chinese government with arms and other war material so that they could continue to resist the fictional Soviet Invasion. Further, my fictionally democratically elected government supported the fictional West German militarists intent on unification of their great homeland by force of arms, which began as passive support, and ended with a fictional invasion of the DDR, and Poland lead by my fictionally great nation, and it's obviously fictional allies. This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

[Legbreaker]

...I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War...

And so you should! ;)

Seriously though almost every participant had a hand in starting the war either by direct action, or lack of political will.

[Webstral]

Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

I'm here to publicly acknowledge that I went too far with this one. Gentlemen, I apologize for dragging down the tone of the board with this example of name-calling. While I maintain that the commissioning process is in need of reform, there is no defensible reason to denegrate West Point graduates by calling them "ring-bearers" or to denegrate non-prior service OCS graduates by calling them "90-day wonders". Without attempting to defend or explain any other part of my argument, I want to acknowledge that I chose my words in poor spirit and apologize for showing my less-than-respectful side on the board.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well gentlemen there's certainly a lot to mull over in this thread.
From what I had seen in the past and one of the reason I decided to join this forum was that people could express themselves without being too offensive and without others being so sensitive that they would take offense.
I know myself that I'm not particularly clever at saying something without it appearing cold,cynical, too blunt or borderline antagonistic - I accept that my personality is retarded and that I don't express myself well enough at times so I apologize for any ill-will that I may have caused for the past, present and the future.

However, this last lot of exchanges shows that there seems to be a whole lot of angst floating around the forum. While I have seen some things that are anti-American, I've seen a few that are very pro-American and by default come across as being anti-someone else.
I'm not saying that should balance everything out and I'm not saying that it's right or corect, what I'm saying is that people should pull their head in and think about how their words will be taken before they submit the post.
Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.

Kato has a tough enough time as it is, you should all know that from the message he posted before about his personal life. He doesn't need more trouble. If this comes across as the school master chastising the students, maybe that's what we need, a good kick in the arse to say "stop behaving like arsehats."
So please gentlemen, consider if your words may be offensive before you post but hand in hand with that, readers should stop reading between the lines to try and find anything potentially offensive in what has been written.

I'll climb off the soapbox now, flame me at your leisure

[kato13]

Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.


You are very right my "death of the forum" quote is not a colorful exaggeration.

Posts by unique users have been trending way down since the DC group vs canon argument started. We have gone from an average of over 65 users per 500 posts down to 38. The dominance of the top 12 or so posters has also vastly increased. We have moved from the top 12 most active posters providing ~55% of the posts to currently providing 82% of the posts, 90% if you go to the top 15. (note all of my posts are excluded from the calculations above as I have been the most dominate poster for the forum's run).

With over 25 years of message board experience this looks to me like the beginning of a death spiral where only those with the strongest stomach will remain posting here. The rumblings of new forums being created are starting, and the factionalism that comes with them will be close behind.

[Targan]

This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

I'm confused about this part of an otherwise funny rant. Are you upset with an Australian poster? I don't recall saying too much that was offensive lately but if I have I apologise.

Following Kato's pronouncement that the DCWG's work would be considered canon on this forum I had intended to keep a low profile because I thought the pronouncement was a form of censorship and would have a very negative impact. As it turned out I was wrong and things seem to have been fine around here for weeks. Perhaps I was wrong and things aren't as fine as they seem. That's a pity for me because I was feeling comfortable posting here again but it would be a great deal more unfortunate for the forum as a whole. If Kato pulls the pin then we're all back in the internet wilderness again.

Lets sort this stuff out. If issues can't be resolved through private messages then Kato should take things to the next level and caution or ban posters, if that means still having a forum. If I'm the problem then ban me, please. No individual poster is bigger than the forum and no one deserves to feel insulted and have no resolution to accumulated bad blood. I hope I'm not the problem and this ends up being my final post but if so, VIVA LA FORUM!

[Targan]

I wonder if these anti-American statements are meant in a mostly harmless, playfully teasing way or if they are meant to be provocative.

From an Australian's point of view, absolutely. That tends to be the way the Australian sense of humour works. It is well known inside Australia that as a culture we tend to suffer from "tall poppy syndrome". I doubt very much any members of this forum are truly anti-American, if they were why would they involve themselves in a group that is numerically dominated by Americans?

I sometimes wonder how Australia is portrayed in popular American culture. I was playing Grand Theft Auto 4 the other day and in a radio advertisement in-game Australians were referred to as being "funny but militarilly inept". I was simultaneously amused and insulted by that, and it caused me to feel a bit defensive. I thought to myself "there are only 21 million or so of us and the proportion of GDP Australia spends on its military is comperable to other western nations".

I think that on the whole Australians are very fond of Americans in general. Sometimes we get upset at the perception that decisions made by the US Government sometimes affect the rest of the world negatively but hey, if China was the world's dominating superpower I expect we would be a lot less happy. Another issue that Australians may have is that American culture tends to be a bit overpowering as a result of cheap US media exports. Anybody in Australia who has a big problem with that has the option to not watch TV or visit cinemas. None of these things should affect the relationships between posters on this forum. Our mutual respect and long history as stalwart brothers in arms are much stronger factors in our relationship as brother cultures.

In closing I say be cool companjeros, be cool.

Edit: If this post is more a part of the problem than part of the solution feel free to delete it Kato. I don't want to make things worse.

[Legbreaker]

As one of the top 12 most active (I think), I have to say I've increased activity of late. Wouldn't this increase in post rate skew results somewhat?

NOTE!
No comment I ever make is intentionally made to insult others. Here in Australia we have a culture of banter and teasing - the more we like somebody the harder we do it and the more we expect to receive it back!

For example, you might call your best mate a wanker and mean it with the greatest of respect and affection.

[Raellus]

None of these things should affect the relationships between posters on this forum. Our mutual respect and long history as stalwart brothers in arms are much stronger factors in our relationship as brother cultures.

I agree. I wouldn't dream of alienating our Australian bloc of posters. You guys rock.

Having lived overseas for 6 years, I get how some people perceive the U.S. and it's a burden Americans have to bear. Like ALL nations, we've done some great things and we've done some sh*tty things. Unfortunately, those sh*tty things tend to stand out more.

I dislike stereotypes. They're usually crutches for the ignorant and small-minded. Unfortunately, they can't be escaped. I just wish that people would stop painting all Americans with the same broad brush. We're not all macho, jingoistic, boorish, materialistic, uncultured, loutes.

If someone has a chip on his shoulder about Americans, this isn't the place to to air those grievances. Like my mama used to tell me,

If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all.

'Nuff said.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think the greatest irony in this current situation is that while some bad feeling has been generated due to the comments of some people analyzing the military (or non-military) conduct of the characters in Aliens, the fact is that Wayland-Yutani deliberately sent that specific unit to the planet with the sole aim of getting some or all of them infected with an alien egg.

They deliberately chose a unit (and it's equipment) that would not be able to achieve the military mission and while Cameron was most definitely telling a Vietnam War tale with all the badness that the Vietnam experience entails, I believe it cannot be overstated that the role of the Colonial Marines in the operation was to become infected so that the Wayland-Yutani Corporation could get its hands on what they thought could be a new bio-weapon.
The Marines in the movie were being f**ked over by big business, just like we all get screwed over by big business.
They were a disposable asset.
They were never allowed (or even meant) to achieve their military objectives so over-analyzing the personnel or their actions is ultimately fruitless - they were set up by higher authority right from the beginning to fail.

[Targan]

They were never allowed (or even meant) to achieve their military objectives so over-analyzing the personnel or their actions is ultimately fruitless - they were set up by higher authority right from the beginning to fail.

As was the crew of the Nostromo in the original Alien film. It seems that a prime directive had been secretly inserted into all the master computers in the Weyland-Yutani starship fleet in an effort to find alien technology. Of course once the Alien Vs Predator films came out we could understand why. Weyland Corporation knew of the existance of extraterrestrial intelligent life late in the 20th or early in the 21st century and then spent the next couple of hundred years looking for it off-planet.

[Legbreaker]

Alien Vs Predator - what a total and complete waste of time!

From my point of view the predator films are about as far from a canon Aliens universe as you can get.

It's a good point about the corporate meddling in the first two films and one I hadn't really thought about lately. Given the information the corporation had from the first encounter by the Nostromo and Ripley's subsequent report, if they were serious about safety, them more marines should have been sent - at least twice as many, preferably 10 times as many.

Yes, the unit had some heavy firepower at their disposal, but they also had insufficient numbers to cope with even light casualties and continue being combat effective. Gorman's tactical and strategic shortcomings notwithstanding, the lack of decent briefings and preparation doomed the mission from teh start.

On the other hand, if it had turned out to be nothing more than a downed transmitter, and a full company plus had been sent....

[StainlessSteelCynic]

...On the other hand, if it had turned out to be nothing more than a downed transmitter, and a full company plus had been sent....

The problem is though, Weyland-Yutani already knew what the likely cause was.
To paraphrase Ripley during the later part of the movie where she is talking to Burke about the Aliens, "I don't know whose worse Burke, you or them. You don't see them fucking each other over for a percentage"

[pmulcahy11b]

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

Webstral

Well, technically...he's in charge, so everything is his fault...so I was taught in ROTC, PLDC, and BNCOC.

[Legbreaker]

I don't own a copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual but I do have a copy of the Aliens RPG packed away somewhere.
Look long enough and you'll find anything online...
http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=69278&page=2
It's only a few excerpts, but it is cut and pasted word for word.

[Webstral]

Well, technically...he's in charge, so everything is his fault...so I was taught in ROTC, PLDC, and BNCOC.

I agree that ultimately the success or failure of the mission rests with the senior leadership. I'm trying to show Gorman a touch of sympathy because he is, after all, a new LT to the unit; and he can't be everywhere at all times. The whole business with an alien getting aboard the drop ship is a good example. It seems odd to me that the drop ship is sitting on the ground in potentially hostile territory with its ramp down. Shouldn't ramp up be SOP? While Gorman might have the ability to check on this sort of detail, and while we might say he should have checked on this sort of detail, he is a new lieutenant with an awful lot on his mind. The drop ship crew let him down by allowing themselves to be very vulnerable and failing to prevent infiltration of the ship by the enemy.

Nevertheless, I can't dispute you that final responsibility for what does or does not happen in Gorman's command rests with Gorman.

Webstral

[Targan]

The whole business with an alien getting aboard the drop ship is a good example. It seems odd to me that the drop ship is sitting on the ground in potentially hostile territory with its ramp down. Shouldn't ramp up be SOP? While Gorman might have the ability to check on this sort of detail, and while we might say he should have checked on this sort of detail, he is a new lieutenant with an awful lot on his mind. The drop ship crew let him down by allowing themselves to be very vulnerable and failing to prevent infiltration of the ship by the enemy.

Yes, yes, yes. Did I mention yes?

[copeab]

Nevertheless, I can't dispute you that final responsibility for what does or does not happen in Gorman's command rests with Gorman.


I disagree. The ultimate responsibility for Gorman's command failure was Burke's greed.

[MajorPo]

Alien Vs Predator - what a total and complete waste of time!

I agree, an awful movie. I think AvP Reqiuem was pretty good though, and I think this is the movie that Targan is referring to in his earlier post. In the end of this we see an early Weyland-Yutani corp discover that alien life exists.

I thought the movie actually did a pretty good job of staying true to the feel of both Aliens and Predator franchises. It was even structured in a similar way to Aliens and some of the scenes were definitely paying fan-service to the original.

Obviously the corp knew what was going on out there when they organised to have the marines sent out. They had always wanted minimal surviors so they organised to have a small detachment (which also seemed to have a lot of discipline problems) with no chance of actually succeeding in the stated mission.

The only people who actually 'failed' to do what was expected of them were Carter Burke, who failed in getting Ripley and Newt impregnated and Ripley. Ripley was the traitorous dog who turned her back on her Corps plans and actively worked against them.

[Caradhras]

the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers 2nd battallion apparently had some use of the series Sharps Rifles with Sean Bean in educational purposes .

I remember seeing one or two of these when on exchange there at platoon seargent selction - selection course . ( Pre selection )

Selection was in Wales somewhere called the Breacons I believe .

Brecon Beacons in South Wales - where the SAS do a lot of training/selection - some bleak hostile terrain when the weather comes in.

[weswood]

I sometimes wonder how Australia is portrayed in popular American culture. I was playing Grand Theft Auto 4 the other day and in a radio advertisement in-game Australians were referred to as being "funny but militarilly inept". I was simultaneously amused and insulted by that, and it caused me to feel a bit defensive. I thought to myself "there are only 21 million or so of us and the proportion of GDP Australia spends on its military is comperable to other western nations".

There are only 21 million of ya'll? Jeeze, ya'll need some more people, you want some Mexicans? We got plenty to to spare here in the U.S., and you don't even have to go through the trouble of documenting them.:D

[pmulcahy11b]

I sometimes wonder how Australia is portrayed in popular American culture. I was playing Grand Theft Auto 4 the other day and in a radio advertisement in-game Australians were referred to as being "funny but militarilly inept".

In the US, all Australians are thought of as hot actors, actresses or supermodels who are good with a grill, making steak, or shrimp.

[Targan]

In the US, all Australians are thought of as hot actors, actresses or supermodels who are good with a grill, making steak, or shrimp.

Oh, ok. That's actually quite accurate. :D

[GDWFan]

Ok Guys sorry to dredge this up again.

What is the DC vs Canon Argument?
Ive seen it referenced but cant figure out what it is?

I think If someone has unamerican feelings then they should be posted on a message board that has more to do with the subject.

Ive posted with some of you for years now at RPG host i think is where i started. If this collection of T2K enthusiasts falls apart i would be devestated.

About this argument in particular I say if Web has problems with the commision system then he should be allowed to voice them but move them to a post dedicated to the positives and negatives of the system.

As for Eddie I agree that noone here should have to have there carreers or personal life demeaned here. However the offensive post did not call out Eddie. Web seemed to be talking more about Vietnam and Eddie didnt fight there and hes not a space marine so I dont see how he could be that offended.

I dont mean to judge anyone but I think that as a neutral party I could help mediate some of these issues.

Ive always been more of a reader but i will try to up my monthly posts and help keep the blood flowing around here.

Thanks Guys
Keep it up Kato

[Webstral]

About this argument in particular I say if Web has problems with the commision system then he should be allowed to voice them but move them to a post dedicated to the positives and negatives of the system.

I'd go with that. It's a deep and clearly controversial issue. (Few important things ever seem non-controversial.)

Webstral

[GDWFan]

If there is a controversial issue related to War, The Military or Armegeddon in general then I believe it has a place here on the boards.

There was a time when the whole idea of playing games about WW3 was probably controversial.

I'm sure nobody meant to take a personal shot at anyone here, that would have no place here, Lets keep the dialouge open here.

SO many of the ideas put forth on this board and its predecessors are like canon to me and many other players because no one was afraid to post them, if someone disagrees they can post there arguments and we can move to the next great debate about life after 2000.

Speaking of that real world bankruptcy I was here in Bloomington IL to help a real world clean-up effort of the old GDW factory with all the owners present.
Thats where i got my T2k Books, 20 boxes of last battle sets and my original europa bags lol.

[Targan]

What is the DC vs Canon Argument?
The short answer (which hopefully will not re-open old wounds) is that the collected T2K works of the DC Working Group are now to be considered canon T2K for the purposes of discusion on this forum, in order to prevent any further bad blood on the subject. If you go to the T2K Forum Thread Map (second from the top of the thread list) you will be able to find links to the DC Working Group's excellent works.

[GDWFan]

So the big arguement is this?

Are we forced to consider this information canon?

Can we discuss a game with our own information and stories?

If we discuss original canon or disagree with this group are we in trouble?

As long as we are all free to talk about our personal games and opinions
I see no problem with there works.

As for Canon? This work is not canon, GDW published materials are by definition the only canon. However I dont disagree that it is excellent work.

Ive always believed that this board as a whole should be devoted to building our own canon one post at a time.

Ive wanted the war to be portrayed in a more built up WW2 style affair with more C&C surviving through COG plans and all that.

To persecute anyone here for not accepting the rules as canon is not right.
That would be like the previously mentioned 93 games studio turning the DC group down. Why are these four guys opinions of more value to us than the opposing voice? If that is the direction this board hasd taken then it should be put to the polls.

This group is too valuable to place anyones opinions above the rest and squander it all for those reasons.

Just my thoughts on the subject
I remain a loyal member of the board and an admirer of Kato for his time effort and awesome moderating ability

thanks

[Targan]

Perhaps I should have provided more information but I had wanted to keep it as brief as posible to avoid stirring up any animosity.

The decision to consider the DC Working Group's work as canon was made by Kato to put a lid on bad blood that was developing following a series of disagreements on this forum regarding what is and is not canon. I am not speaking for Kato when I answer the questions below and I welcome Kato clarifying any of this personally.

"Are we forced to consider this information canon?" - Only for the purposes of discussions on this forum. You are free to personally consider as canon whatever you wish.

"Can we discuss a game with our own information and stories?" - Absolutely. From my point of view I love reading that sort of stuff from other posters.

"As long as we are all free to talk about our personal games and opinions I see no problem with there works." - Good. I see no problem either.

"As for Canon? This work is not canon, GDW published materials are by definition the only canon. However I dont disagree that it is excellent work." - No argument from me there. Please understand that Kato made his decision in a last ditch effort to prevent bad blood from further damaging this forum. I completely understand and respect his decision. Anyone who needs further clarification on the decision or wants to discuss it should probably talk to Kato in private messages. He is a very reasonable guy and I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

"Ive always believed that this board as a whole should be devoted to building our own canon one post at a time." - Agreed. I started out thinking that that was what would happen but things turned out to be a bit more complicated than that. This forum represents an invaluable body of work in my opinion and we can all pick and choose from what we would like to include in our own campaigns.

"To persecute anyone here for not accepting the rules as canon is not right. That would be like the previously mentioned 93 games studio turning the DC group down. Why are these four guys opinions of more value to us than the opposing voice? If that is the direction this board hasd taken then it should be put to the polls." - No one's opinions are more valuable than anyone elses. No one has been persecuted for anything. As I said above, Kato made a ruling in an effort to nip some growing problems in the bud. If anything, the way things were heading before, the DC Working Group may have started to feel that they were being persecuted. They became very wary of posting their work here. No one wants that because their work is excellent. I believe it was a very hard decision for Kato to make and he deserves our respect for doing his best to keep problems from potentially becoming the death of this forum.

"This group is too valuable to place anyones opinions above the rest and squander it all for those reasons." - Absolutely. Well put.

[Legbreaker]

See http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1214&highlight=canon for my and a number of others opinions on this.

Some of us believe one thing, some another, but this is a community and nobody should be allowed for even an instant to stop others having their say.

[GDWFan]

This all seems kind of unimportant.

The group does alot of great work but is this work supplied with the condition that is become canon?

I agree that it is up to us to make the history fit the result that is given in
the core book.

But changing the result and the history is ok too, its just not canon.

So i guess with my limited knowledge I'd say let the DC group have there posts, let the conservatives have there arguements. It all builds a better story in the end.

What seems to be the issue to me is that Canon has taken on some kind of value here.

1. Are we allowed to read the DC group and have them as members if we dont recognize their work as canon?

2. If so why havent the opponents or other creators here on the board been given this "Canon" status?

3.Why would an educated group of free thinkers destroy a depository of knowledge over what is Canon and what is Not Canon in a rpg.

My opinion is It is NOT Canon, that canon was developed and built here in my town by men that i know. They put a large part of there life into that canon and noone besides them or those they liscense can create or edit the canon of there game story and system

But that being said I love reading DC group work and i love reading posts from those guys. I use so much of the additional info and house rules here and im so grateful for it all. I have many good ideas for the game but i dont demand or expect others to accept it as rule.

As long as its civil we should all be able to agree and disagree on this information because in the end its all just info and ideas guys. The rights to thats canon and whats not are not ours to decide. And as for the "well in this board it is canon" argument I dont accept that. Because a majority of us dont agree or care enough to form an opinion on the issue. This isnt a play by post or email game it is a message board for Twilight 2000 "GDW's system for roleplaying in the devistation of WW3"

If it is now DC Groups system for roleplaying in the devistation of WW3 then that should be noted on the boards nameplate and search results.

I think that this type of animosity will hang around until someone addresses and solves it with open productive conversation and debate and anyone not mature enough should avoid flames and insults and watch

Lets get the boards humming again guys.

Antenna Paul M Web Ive seen you guys on these boards for along time now and id like to hear your opinions on this.

No anger just what do you guys think and Kato If this is making you mad just buzz me and ill shut back up man im not trying to hurt anyone here
Just dont want this bopard to dry up again

[kato13]

See http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1214&highlight=canon for my and a number of others opinions on this.

Some of us believe one thing, some another, but this is a community and nobody should be allowed for even an instant to stop others having their say.


This is my forum. I pay for it, I spend the time to maintain it. YOU are the problem. If I decide to end your participation here for the long term good it is MY decision.

12 members (8 of whom you have never had any direct conflict with) have asked me to ban you. With my desire to do so that makes 13. Given how reluctant people are to post or send pm's I expect the number is much higher than that,

In my opinion your immensely stubborn and hostile attitude towards people who disagree with you and your remarks towards my country annoys the heck out of me.

The final straw for me regarding any respect I might have had for you was lost you when you decided to undercut a well researched scientific study with claims that the writers must have been financially motivated, just because it happened to disagree with your opinion on a particular subject. You continued with your insistence that the study was biased and wrong without even reading it.

Follow this up with your attacks against the DC group's work which were motivated by a personal animosity towards one of it's members. This drove some of our most productive members away. At this point I was really ready to drop the hammer on you.

Yet the respect that my country has always had towards free speech led me to leave my own forum for months rather than stifle a voice.

I come back and try to settle things and you continue to dig at my country. Snide remarks about "typical gung-ho Americans", "Being rabidly NOT American" don't have a place here. Yet you keep saying things like that.

Everyone on board I have talked this over with says I have the patience of a saint in my dealings with you, but it is wearing very thin. If you enjoy posting here, consider that before your next post.

[kato13]

1. Are we allowed to read the DC group and have them as members if we dont recognize their work as canon?

2. If so why havent the opponents or other creators here on the board been given this "Canon" status?

3.Why would an educated group of free thinkers destroy a depository of knowledge over what is Canon and what is Not Canon in a rpg.

My opinion is It is NOT Canon, that canon was developed and built here in my town by men that i know. They put a large part of there life into that canon and noone besides them or those they liscense can create or edit the canon of there game story and system


It is canon 1.5. Frank Frey gave his support towards the DC groups initial work and their research has exceeded GDW's IMO.

You can ignore it the same way someone ignores the canon 1.0 and 2.0 differences.

You can treat it the same as canon 3.0 which has very little connection with anything in 1.0 or 2.0.

I just wanted to end the argument.

[GDWFan]

Thank you Kato

I think i havent got the whole story and ill quiet down til i do.
I believe some of this is that this group has been rewarded by the canon title
but we dont make it a point to call anyone else heres work canon?

Lets just all get along and respect the rules as dictated by the board owner kato

[Targan]

I think i havent got the whole story and ill quiet down til i do.Good thinking.

Lets just all get along and respect the rules as dictated by the board owner katoThat's what I was trying to say in my last two posts.

[kato13]

Thank you Kato

I think i havent got the whole story and ill quiet down til i do.
I believe some of this is that this group has been rewarded by the canon title
but we dont make it a point to call anyone else heres work canon?

Lets just all get along and respect the rules as dictated by the board owner kato

From my read of my discussions with the DC group they don't even care about the canon designation. At one point they said they were going to "fill the gaps in canon" and that was used as a tool to attack them. I just wanted to end the argument.

[sglancy12]

"He is like Germany ,ambitious but misunderstood"

Someday you should explain where that quote comes from. Having just spent a ghastly amount of time researching the Great War, that really sounds like something someone would say during the first decade of the 20th Century.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

Someday you should explain where that quote comes from. Having just spent a ghastly amount of time researching the Great War, that really sounds like something someone would say during the first decade of the 20th Century.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

It was actually said in the first decade of the 31st century (it is a "Futurama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama)" quote)

[Eddie]

Gentlemen,

Please take this post as what it is, an unemotional explanation of what I consider a few key points. You may or may not agree with the importance I've assigned them.

First off, I'm not an overemotional, pubescent teenager. I didn't take any of the comments made in this thread as personal against "me." However, I do love my country and found Legbreaker's comment offensive. I dislike being stereotyped just as much as I'm sure all of you do.

Secondly, when I was commissioned in the Army, I was told I became a member of "the profession of Arms." It's a little manipulative phrase to instill a little professional pride in what we do, but it achieved its purpose with me. I do take great pride in my job and the organization in which I work. So once again, when a stereotype is posited that "all of x are only worth anything if they have y background," I responded.

Bottom line facts: a good officer is made by the sum of his parts. His initiative, his morals, his judgment, his intelligence, and his capacity to adapt. Training, education, experience, physical fitness....all of those are important, but I submit that each are part of the five broad characteristics I first mentioned; subsets if you will. What gives me the right to say that? Nothing intrinsically more than any of you, but as a Company Commander, I do get paid to rate junior officers on their performance and potential (granted, about a 75%/25% split in importance at my level). Still yet, your opinion may vary and you are by all means entitled to it.

Of the six that I rated as a Company Commander, two were super-squared away (one prior service, one a West Pointer), one had potential but lacked the confidence (prior service Air Force officer who transferred to the Army), one was like Gorman (tactically sound but lacked the experience and interpersonal skills to bond with his platoon), one was prior enlisted in the Navy and the Air Force before gaining a commission in the Army Infantry and had a bona fide Band of Brothers "we won't go to combat with him" moment in Iraq and ended up being a total shithead, and one could barely speak English and was an overpaid PVT (literally, I sent him to 13 weeks of English as a Second Language training; unsuccessfully, and had to kill his career). That is the truth of leaders, in general, not just military officers.

Granted also, as Webstral pointed out to me in a PM, I don't know anything about him other than his profile says he is a teacher in the San Francisco Bay area. Were I to take that limited knowledge and apply stereotypes, he is a liberal, homosexual who wears metallic costumes on Friday night and has his nipples pierced while jumping cars down the hills. That may or may not be the case, I don't know and most likely never will, but I have never pictured him in mind that way (and hope I never do again after writing that). However, I do know my background and knowledge base, and have seen, worked with, and been a part of the commissioning system and officer corps that he spoke about.

I should also point out, that I'm one of the group he espoused make better officers. Again, I was not personally attacked or insulted by his post and do not want to be misconstrued as feeling all butt-hurt about "him saying bad things about me."

About this argument in particular I say if Web has problems with the commision system then he should be allowed to voice them but move them to a post dedicated to the positives and negatives of the system.

I encourage this. I have no qualms with a debate of the commissioning system. I do, however, get antsy with absolute statements based on personal opinion.

As for Eddie I agree that noone here should have to have there carreers or personal life demeaned here. However the offensive post did not call out Eddie. Web seemed to be talking more about Vietnam and Eddie didnt fight there and hes not a space marine so I dont see how he could be that offended.

I wasn't offended by Webstral's post. I just despise that argument because it's a load of crap that stereotypes all officers that aren't prior enlisted. Note that I did NOT say that Webstral is a load/piece/reeks of crap. No, Webstral was talking more about the qualities that make a good officer with respect to the commissioning process. His initial argument was replete with absolute statements of opinion and personal interpretation presented as empirical fact. Which irritates me in general, but moreso when it involves the specific argument of "No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first!" The commissioning process was almost a subtopic in his post.

I hear that particular statement/discussion/argument every time I turn around. From enlisted guys wanting me to agree with them, from civilians that armchair general every decision made by the military, by friends and family just wanting my opinion. I make no apology for being passionate about it nor for being sick of it.

And while we're on the subject, yes, I admit that the commissioning system has its flaws. I however don't believe that the system is the culprit so much as the evaluators in said system are. The human factor of the process is where it breaks down, in my opinion. This is because the system mechanics do exactly what they are designed to do. At least in the US Army, I can't speak with authority about the other branches of the US military.

The commissioning system mandates that all officers be commissioned with 15 core subjects being trained. There are tests and evaluations to measure mastery of the materials, and most importantly, the standards are uniform throughout the commissioning sources. However, the human factor allows for subjective assessment of a cadet's/candidate's potential; which, in turn allows a hopeful officer to fake the funk for whatever duration necessary to earn said commission. By that point, the Army has invested so much into that young officer that no senior leader really has the guts to do the morally right action of telling someone that they need to find a new career. I was lucky in the fact that my BN Commander agreed with me about my two problem children.

Heinlein, in Starship Troopers (and perhaps elsewhere), presented the idea that no one should be allowed to be an officer without first seeing combat.

Heinlein also posited that no one should be a citizen without serving a minimum tour in the military.

On reflection, Apone doesn't come off so well -- he does a poor job of being a senior NCO faced with a poor officer.

Incompetence is not limited to the Officer paygrades.

I agree that ultimately the success or failure of the mission rests with the senior leadership.

I agree. That leader is responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do. It's a cop-out when you're looking at it clinically, but when you analyze that the leader in charge, be he officer or enlisted, has been given the trust from his nation to take his subordinates into harm's way and return them as safely as possible, you can understand why it is still around.

I disagree. The ultimate responsibility for Gorman's command failure was Burke's greed.

No, I disagree. Judgment and Initiative by Gorman. Had Gorman exercised those two characteristics, he would have come to the decision of what was best for success of the mission. Then he would have told Burke to piss up a rope.

So, in summary, I took no personal insult at any of the comments made in this thread. I have addressed the ones that I took offense to, though. Insult v. offense may be a semantical difference, but I know what I mean even if you don't.

I also want to echo the apology for further detracting from this forum. It was not my intent and I tried to be subtle about it at first. I won't mar this forum again as this will be my last visit.

Good luck. You're on your own.

[copeab]

Heinlein also posited that no one should be a citizen without serving a minimum tour in the military.


Was that specifically or just government service?

I agree. That leader is responsible for everything his unit does or fails to do.

So how much blame does Gorman's superior get then?

No, I disagree. Judgment and Initiative by Gorman. Had Gorman exercised those two characteristics, he would have come to the decision of what was best for success of the mission. Then he would have told Burke to piss up a rope.

I think you are missing the point that Burke deliberately manipulated who was in charge of the Marines, so he could have an officer he could bully.

[pmulcahy11b]

Was that specifically or just government service?


Basically, in Starship Troopers, any service could conceivably be used. Juan Rico, the main character, once said that if a deaf, mute, and blind person wanted to become a citizen, they could have him counting hairs on a caterpillar by touch, and it would count.

The thing about requiring military service for citizenship is that you have to give everyone an avenue to military service.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It's a shame that Eddie feels the need to leave this forum, he was certainly able to add a lot information and experience to the discussions.
I do think however that nearly everybody has over-reacted a bit to what has happened this time around.

Personally I found Webstral's dissection of Cameron's interpretation of Vietnam & the US military via Aliens to be right on the mark. I never thought Webstral set about to criticize current officer training practice or indeed criticize the US Army at all because I believe he was commenting on James Cameron's criticism of the US Army and its Vietnam experience. He had some thoughts about the commissioning process and he expressed them, I understand Eddie may be tired of hearing those ideas but a simple statement of "I say the idea is bogus because..." would have been sufficient.

Many of us don't like to examine our mistakes, the government and military particularly so. Cameron uses Aliens to show what he believes are/were mistakes in the military system at the time, it doesn't mean he's right.
As for the notion that nobody should be allowed to receive a commission unless they have prior military service, I agree with the naysayers, I think the idea is wrong and probably too much influenced by Heinlein's own view of his own military experience.

I think the fatal flaw in this whole thread is a three-parter. One part has been mistaking the dissection of the movie as a representation of people's views on the real world military instead of seeing it as them using the movie as an example of what should or should not be done.
Part two was expressing thoughts in a manner that felt like people were treating the movie as if it was real world - it's just a movie, it was never going to show how a real military would have approached the objective, a bunch of boyscouts would have achieved more in real life than the completely fictional and deliberately flawed people were allowed to achieve in the movie.
The third part was people taking offence at what in the end amounts to things that better experienced people could fix simply by explaining the flaws in the argument.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not immune to any of that either but I'm trying not to get bent out of shape by it... some days I even succeed.

[Webstral]

I’ve been working on a longer, hopefully far-better considered piece than some of my previous posts to add to this discussion. Overall, though, I have to say that SSC is right in that my observations about Gorman and Cameron’s message are meant as literary criticism. Like the Army, though, I suffer from mission creep. I allowed my sentiments about the modern Army’s commissioning process to intrude on what was supposed to be literary criticism.

Webstral

[Webstral]

Basically, in Starship Troopers, any service could conceivably be used. Juan Rico, the main character, once said that if a deaf, mute, and blind person wanted to become a citizen, they could have him counting hairs on a caterpillar by touch, and it would count.

The thing about requiring military service for citizenship is that you have to give everyone an avenue to military service.

This idea would be worthy of its own thread. Most of us live in what are loosely, if not accurately, termed "democracies". Should we go down the road the Greeks went, linking full citizenship with some sort of service to the state, or is the currently common Western arrangement the best option? (Most Western nations have given up conscription at this point, I believe.)

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

This idea would be worthy of its own thread. Most of us live in what are loosely, if not accurately, termed "democracies". Should we go down the road the Greeks went, linking full citizenship with some sort of service to the state, or is the currently common Western arrangement the best option? (Most Western nations have given up conscription at this point, I believe.)

Webstral

I have long thought that everyone should have to do some sort of national service. Not necessarily military service; few are cut out for that. But if you set up and same kind of college benefits and suchlike in exchange for being a hospital orderly, teacher in a rural area, doctor in some out-of-the-way place where they're lucky to get a doctor to practice, Meals-on-Wheels, be a 911 operator -- any kind of national service. Yes, there should be conscription of a sort, but it has to suit the person being conscripted, and in my mind, doesn't necessarily mean military service.

[Targan]

I also want to echo the apology for further detracting from this forum. It was not my intent and I tried to be subtle about it at first. I won't mar this forum again as this will be my last visit.

Well I for one find that to be very sad. You were one of the people I was specifically targeting when I invited members of the 93Games Studio forums to come and post here too. The number of people here who value your input vastly outweighs those who do not. Please reconsider your decision. Of course if the main reason you post on forums such as this is for your own enjoyment, and you are no longer enjoying posting here, so be it.

[GDWFan]

Id also say that Chadwick at least was more of a WW2 guy than a vietnam guy. He designed Command Decision, Europa which is insanely detailed lol and gosh maybe a 100 board games. If you check his list of games they are skewed towards WW2 and the civil war. Not to mention he created the game you use to determine your war lol.

[Haven]

As a casual poster and as a casual player my interest in T2k waxes and wanes... so Kato my posting is sporadic as is a lot of peoples I'm sure so don't read too much into those stats.

That said my 2 cents is.....

This is all a buncha bullshit drama.

These forums are so tame that we take our ball and go home as well fall all over ourselves apologizing to each other for the hint of a perceived slight.

The only thing killing the traffic to this site is all the commentary over commentary over non-issues. It's like watching a 24 hour cable news channel.

I'm pissed that I even have to add to the noise .....

So everyone .... grow up. and don't take everything so personal. It's the internet.

inb4: i edit this post because it is stupid to even hit the submit button.

[kato13]

As a casual poster and as a casual player my interest in T2k waxes and wanes... so Kato my posting is sporadic as is a lot of peoples I'm sure so don't read too much into those stats.

That said my 2 cents is.....

This is all a buncha bullshit drama.

These forums are so tame that we take our ball and go home as well fall all over ourselves apologizing to each other for the hint of a perceived slight.

The only thing killing the traffic to this site is all the commentary over commentary over non-issues. It's like watching a 24 hour cable news channel.

I'm pissed that I even have to add to the noise .....

So everyone .... grow up. and don't take everything so personal. It's the internet.

inb4: i edit this post because it is stupid to even hit the submit button.

I agree with all you said except for two things.

I expect more from people here than on the average internet forum

and

I still stand behind my stats.

I have been a web developer since 94 and a huge part of my job is to read site access trends. A clear trend downward like that as summer ends and winter begins is very unlikely to be due to statistical chance IMHO. If I was a little more motivated I would do a Chi-square analysis (God I am such a huge nerd), but I have even more fun data to look at.

I am hoping that the drama is over and I hope that Eddie comes back at some point, but I know what it is like to lose the joy of this place to I will respect his decision.

[GDWFan]

Honestly that there are this many people that frequent this site about a game that print wise has been dead for years from a small company thats been dead just as long and have the time, effort and dedication to argue about the rules, timeline and mechanics as well as publish all the knowledge and actual useful things lol in the forum map is amazing to me and i love it.

Focusing on just the canon argument i agree that no one here forces anyone to use anything here and everyone should be allowed to post without being questioned about there motives or knowledge of the situations and rules. In some ways I see his points, Webs work was not christined canon work for its amazing contribution to the apocrypha of the game. I also have a deep love for GDW in general and if one of them didn't write it or it doesnt have a GDW logo I could never consider it canon. But the bottom line is if your pissing off the guy who runs this forum and makes it possible for the DC group and Web to propigate this information then you should step away form your arguements and keep quiet on anything not game related. Also I think Far Future should list Webs timeline in the product list on there fliers what do you think ? I live in the town its HQ'd in haha maybe ill leave a flier on the door since its just marc millers house.

[Caradhras]

I know what Haven means and agree to some degree - but I dont accept that, because it is the internet, people can be more rude.

I reckon people should have thicker skins here though - but also be mature and think about the implications of what they write before they submit it (which is the norm).

I like this place tbh.

This, of course, is just my 2 penneth.

[Haven]

Thanks for allowing me to rant with aplomb :)


Back on topic:

I think the Marines were written to fail.

There has been a lot of talk about stereotypes and how we all hate them etc...

But when you've got a squad of Marines to kill off in about a hour and a half film you use these stereotypes to quickly familiarize your audience with the paper thin characters without having to spend much background on them.

The audience goes, "oh there is the grizzled NCO... i don't need more explanation on him... lets see... ahh yes the green second LT... i bet that is going to be trouble."

all in my humble and likely flawed opinion of course with no offense directed towards anyone :)

<3

[Legbreaker]

It certainly wouldn't have been much of a movie if they'd all kicked butt.....

[Webstral]

But when you've got a squad of Marines to kill off in about a hour and a half film you use these stereotypes to quickly familiarize your audience with the paper thin characters without having to spend much background on them.

The audience goes, "oh there is the grizzled NCO... i don't need more explanation on him... lets see... ahh yes the green second LT... i bet that is going to be trouble."

Good stuff. The expectations of the audience are powerful tools for story-telling. In many ways, writing a screenplay or a novel is rather like conducting a military operation. There list of things that probably ought to be accomplished is much, much longer than the list of things that can be resourced. In a film with as many characters as "Aliens", there isn't time to develop all of the characters, all of the themes, and so forth. At the risk of using the US Joint Chiefs from the Second World War as literary critics, the term "economy of effort" can be applied to even so grand a film as "Aliens".

Webstral

[Webstral]

This is all a buncha bullshit drama.

These forums are so tame that we take our ball and go home as well fall all over ourselves apologizing to each other for the hint of a perceived slight.

So everyone .... grow up. and don't take everything so personal. It's the internet.

It's true that this site is on the Internet. It's also a private club, owned and operated by Kato. If you have been here for a while, then you know that the long-term users are here because we've been turned off by the crude, low-brow combativeness we've found in so many other locations. At the risk of speaking out of turn for my compatriots, we don't want just another Internet site. We're here because we like this one, and I doubt many of us feel the site will be improved by importing the name-calling, smack-talking bombast so readily available in so many other venues. We have grown up; and most of the long-termers here are more interested in cultivating ideas than thick skins.

It's true that sone of us spend a good deal more electronic ink trying to avoid slighting each other than we used to, and I wish it weren't so. As I see it, the assumption of benign disagreement and respect that used to be a given here has slipped somewhat. Until that assumption can be restored, we work a little harder than we used to putting ideas first. I'm fine with doing that because, like Kato, I want this site to rise above the muck-raking that buries decent discourse in other locales.

Webstral

[Targan]

I tend to self edit my posts on this forum far more than I do on other forums, for several reasons. I want my posts to be read and I am concerned that if I become known for causing trouble here, people might just skim right over my posts. I consider many posters on this forum to be my friends and I don't want to insult them or show them disrespect.

There are cultural sensibilities to be aware of. In my normal, conversational Australian English I tend to blaspheme quite a lot but I try not to blaspheme at all here. Perhaps I am being over-careful in this but I have become aware that many posters are people of faith and I get the impression that blaspheming is taken a lot more seriously in some other parts of the world than it is here in Australia.

Many posters here are current or former members of the military. In my experience military men tend to be no-bulls**t sorts of people and if they think you are disrespecting or slighting them they tend to just write you off as a fool. I'd really like to avoid that.

Finally, as with any group of people who have known each other for a while, this forum has history. There have been painful (and sometimes unresolved) episodes here and I try to steer newcomers away from (probably accidentally) stirring up matters that are likely best left alone. Lately I seem to have failed in that area though.

[kato13]

Finally, as with any group of people who have known each other for a while, this forum has history. There have been painful (and sometimes unresolved) episodes here and I try to steer newcomers away from (probably accidentally) stirring up matters that are likely best left alone. Lately I seem to have failed in that area though.

Don't worry mate, things 'll be apples soon enough. (Practicing my Australian slang)

[Legbreaker]

Practicing my Australian slang
Badly. Very, very badly.

:D

[kato13]

Badly. Very, very badly.

:D

I figured that. ;)

[kato13]

Since I just was looking up what parts made up the M4A1 puls rifle as I thought the base was a spas-12 (turns out they only used the grip). I thought I would provide a link to the Internet Movie Firearms Database for aliens.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Aliens

For those who have not seen it is a pretty cool site overall.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Wasn't it based on the Thompson or similar smg? I didn't know they used SPAS-12 parts but now that you mention it, it is kind of obvious when you look at the grenade launcher section


Update: I've just read the entry at the Movie Firearms Database and found out it was the thompson and not my eyes playing tricks on me

[kato13]

Wasn't it based on the Thompson or similar smg? I didn't know they used SPAS-12 parts but now that you mention it, it is kind of obvious when you look at the grenade launcher section

Yeah the main gun was a Thompson and the grenade launcher was a 12 gauge shotgun.

[Legbreaker]

There were three weapons that made up the pulse rifle, the Thompson, SPAS-12 and the Remington 870.

The original had however used the MP-5 in place of the Thompson but the 9mm wasn't able to give enough of a flash so they switch to the larger calibre weapon.

[pmulcahy11b]

Yeah the main gun was a Thompson and the grenade launcher was a 12 gauge shotgun.

I don't understand that; in the movie, they used a 12-gauge shotgun as the grenade launcher (12-Gauge = 18.52mm), but the Colonial Marines Handbook
says the GL is 30mm. When I made up the M-41A for my Best Weapons that Never Were section, I (IIRC) pegged it at 20mm (With a tech level of 11). There is no way that GL is 30mm!

[Legbreaker]

The Aliens rulebook also states it as 30mm and I think it's mentioned as 30mm in the movie too.
Now if only they'd had a 30mm shotgun laying about they could have used for the props....

[kato13]

I don't understand that; in the movie, they used a 12-gauge shotgun as the grenade launcher (12-Gauge = 18.52mm), but the Colonial Marines Handbook
says the GL is 30mm. When I made up the M-41A for my Best Weapons that Never Were section, I (IIRC) pegged it at 20mm (With a tech level of 11). There is no way that GL is 30mm!

Since they only used the real guns for the ease in firing blank shells (for the visual effects) they could have but a 30mm port over the front of shotgun to maintain the visual appearance of a 30mm launcher.

However this
http://www.imfdb.org/images/f/f6/ALSF-M41-3.jpg
does not look 30mm to me.

[Targan]

A picture I drew of the M41A Pulse Rifle was published in the first edition of Gunmaster.

[kato13]

A picture I drew of the M41A Pulse Rifle was published in the first edition of Gunmaster.

Nice!

[Legbreaker]

I don't believe it. 24 hours ago there's no way in hell I'd have thought it even remotely possible, but it's true.

I'm GMing an Aliens game this week end, f2f with at least 5 players, all willing, able and ready to go toe to toe with those lovable acid for blood critters who only want to be our friends!

Excited? Who me?

:D

[Ramjam]

Right I'm being a right idiot today.

Has anyone got the link to the DC Working Group. Because for the life of me I all I can find is dead links when I google it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I love me some Aliens but it's got plot-holes big enough to drive a Conestoga class cruiser through.

1 - why in the hell did they all bunch up in the atmo. processor? Why did they not go by bounding advance for crying out loud? Hicks sees the acid damage and says straight up "looks like they bagged one of Ripley's bad guys in here". They KNOW what they're in for!

2 - The Colonial Marines Technical Manual tells us the aforementioned Conestoga class can carry "up to 90 passengers and crew, with as many as 2000 more [hypersleep chambers] in the cargo bays". Aaaand twelve marines and one APC went? WTF? That's like sending an Arleigh Burke class missile frigate out with a bridge crew and four marines. I just can't see how/why that would be done.

3 - the never-ending question of how/why the facehugger eggs got on in the first place, which triggered 3. The eggs are only activated by the presence of someone leaning close to them. The queen tore loose from the ovipositor, and even if she'd "laid" them in the landing strut well of the dropship, how'd the facehuggers hatch and find Ripley.

4 - Really, guys? EVERYBODY leaves the ship? When Burke has absolutely established that the critters are on the ground? Irrespective of his actual motives, he tells Ripley when she says "We're going to wipe them out, not bring back, not study, right?" "That's the plan." - she briefed Gorman on the danger of these things, Burke (acting as the good friend) obviously backed her - but everybody came down. WTF???

I love Aliens, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of practical problems with the movie.

[copeab]

2 - The Colonial Marines Technical Manual tells us the aforementioned Conestoga class can carry "up to 90 passengers and crew, with as many as 2000 more [hypersleep chambers] in the cargo bays". Aaaand twelve marines and one APC went? WTF? That's like sending an Arleigh Burke class missile frigate out with a bridge crew and four marines. I just can't see how/why that would be done.

I see this as further manipulation of the situation by Burke -- presented as not wasting money to the Corporation and not wasting resources to the Colonial Marines.

4 - Really, guys? EVERYBODY leaves the ship? When Burke has absolutely established that the critters are on the ground? Irrespective of his actual motives, he tells Ripley when she says "We're going to wipe them out, not bring back, not study, right?" "That's the plan." - she briefed Gorman on the danger of these things, Burke (acting as the good friend) obviously backed her - but everybody came down. WTF???

The dropship, the cruiser, or both?

[Webstral]

I’ll preface my response to the “holes” in the Aliens plot by expressing an idea I failed to get across during the discussion about The Hurt Locker. Fiction is not a documentary. Aliens is a Vietnam film until the surviving Marines escape from the atmosphere processor, but it’s not a Vitenam documentary (obviously). As with all literature, events and characters are meant to stand for something and somebody. I’m sure we’ve all seen the disclaimer at the end of a film claiming that similarities between the characters and events of the film and real people and events are entirely coincidental. Although the primary motivator for putting said advisory at the end of the film is to forestall tort suits, there is a literary idea that one story stands for many; therefore, none of the characters are supposed to be exactly like real people because the characters are supposed to represent archetypes. Why archetypes? So the audience’s ability to see something recognizable and be drawn in thereby is maximized. This is good art, and it’s good marketing.

The answer to questions 1, 2, and 4 is hubris, combined with a power structure that puts people with little experience or little common sense in positions of power. It might not have made sense in a vacuum for everyone to go into the atmosphere processor, for a tiny fraction of the potential crew of the transport to go on the mission, or for everyone to go to the surface. One of the main themes of the film, though, is that in a hierarchy decisions get made at every level according to the viewpoints and needs of the people at that level. By the time all of these decisions reach the people on the ground, the effect borders on insanity. This was true in Vietnam, and it has been true in Iraq. I’d put my left testicle on the table that it’s true in Afghanistan, too.

The Company doesn’t believe there’s a real problem on LV426. The scene in which Ripley tries to defend her actions before a Company board of inquiry spells out of the Company’s attitudes very effectively. They don’t believe her story. They don’t want to believe her story. They think they have a good grip on things. Later, we find out that Burke has sent the colonists to look for the original crashed ship on his own initiative. Therefore, when Burke says that the loss of communication with the colony on LV426 could be a result of a “downed transmitter”, he’s expressing the viewpoint of the appropriate officials at the Company. One is forced to wonder whether Ripley’s inclusion in the mission is entirely the doing of some quick talking on the part of Burke, who is trying to cover his fourth point of contact in the event his little venture went sour.

Let’s suppose, then, that the Marines get sent out on the Company’s behalf. The Company doesn’t believe in the Aliens. The Company is checking off a standard procedure box. This attitude is transmitted to the government, who send a bare-bones mission to check their own box. People cost money, so a very small force under a butterbar gets sent. Before we say “That’s crazy! That would never happen!” let us think of a few of the decisions that were made in Iraq and Afghanistan that were based on keeping costs down, supporting other priorities, or just plain oversight. We sent 130,000 to Iraq instead of 350,000, and we got rid of the Army and the police. There was no centralized effort to train a new Afghan police force until Obama was elected. I won’t belabor the point.

Keeping with the Vietnam theme, units in Vietnam were woefully understrength. The small size of the force sent to LV426 is a reference to the inadequacy of the available manpower. We should remember that Aliens is fiction, not a documentary. The small size of the command that hits the ground is symbolic of the shortage of manpower in rifle platoons and companies in Vietnam.

Similarly, the fact that a mission like this is placed under the command of someone so junior is a condemnation of the power structure of the armed forces and the class consciousness of the military. Gorman has forty some-odd simulated missions, but the drop on LV426 is his second live drop. It’s good that he’s been trained, but it’s awful that a man with so little real world experience is put in charge of anything like this. However, we have a good idea how important the Marines think this mission is based on who they put in charge. Again, the specter of Vietnam rears its ugly head. I don’t know enough about the training and experience of USMC lieutenants in Vietnam, but I know the Army lieutenants were not what was needed. Still, an officer has to be in charge, so let’s scrape one off the bottom of the barrel and give him a token force so we can check the box on this little sidebar matter at LV426.

The short-handedness of the mission explains why everybody comes down. There isn’t anybody to leave upstairs. Moreover, as we have seen it’s not strictly necessary to leave someone up top. The approach of the Marines to the atmosphere processor can be explained by the presence of the newbie lieutenant. This is the same guy who had all of the ammunition collected before sending his people into the lion’s den. Utter foolishness, but understandable foolishness given the discovery regarding the heat exchangers. Gorman’s a great character in that we can very easily see and understand the conflicting forces at work in him.

I’m not going to defend or even address the presence of the facehuggers that lead to #3. That’s another story for another time.

Honestly, I don’t see any of the “holes” mentioned as holes. People in their various functions and capacities make decisions based on their perceptions of reality. Everyone down the chain has to live with these decisions. I witnessed insane monkey-ass bullshit daily in Iraq. Everyone from the President on downward made decisions and created policy that drove a reality on the ground that we all felt was markedly deficient. If I had to review my own journal, Adagio for Strings, I would say that as a work of fiction it ranks below anything done by Tom Clancy or Harold Coyle because the levels of stupidity, insanity, and ineptitude are too great to be borne by suspension of disbelief. Aliens gives us the tools we need to understand why the characters who don’t have any dialogue in the film make the decisions that lead to the material we see on the screen. We’re supposed to say “WTF?” because that’s the human experience at war.

[Legbreaker]

Another point is that the Colonial Marines Technical Manual was written well, well after the movie by a fairly talented and motivated fan. It's a damn fine publication, but in no way is it the movie.
For all we know, the Sulaco only held a single platoon worth of marines, one half of which was deleted for the mission to allow carriage of Ripley and Burke, which would explain why there was a spare dropship aboard.
If the ship was big enough to carry thousands of troops, would the marines really have had to carry out all the pre-mission checks and loading themselves, or would there have been specialists available as you might see on an aircraft carrier?
The size of the mess hall we see in the early stages of the movie is also an indication of the limited size and carrying capacity of the Sulaco.

Now, as for the bunching in the atmosphere processor, it's human nature to group together like that in unfamiliar situations. Totally against tactical common sense, true, but those were also some very tight areas. My guess is that if they'd spread out it may have actually worked against them given the aliens could have picked them off one by one at their leisure.

The 3 eggs on the dropship is something I don't buy either. The whole 3rd movie was a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. Sure there were some nice highlights, but the overall concept and storyline just didn't' hang together for me.
I had the opportunity to read the original draft for the 3rd movie a couple of years back - COMPLETELY different. Set on a space station, Ripely was injured early on and in a coma most of the duration, Hicks lives and becomes the hero and I can't remember what happened to Newt (survived I think). Bishop also got a run as well, but again I can't remember details. Ends in an evac of the station by a handful of survivors.
Some of the ideas were a bit dodgy, but as it was only a first draft....

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Another point is that the Colonial Marines Technical Manual was written well, well after the movie by a fairly talented and motivated fan. It's a damn fine publication, but in no way is it the movie.
For all we know, the Sulaco only held a single platoon worth of marines, one half of which was deleted for the mission to allow carriage of Ripley and Burke, which would explain why there was a spare dropship aboard.
If the ship was big enough to carry thousands of troops, would the marines really have had to carry out all the pre-mission checks and loading themselves, or would there have been specialists available as you might see on an aircraft carrier?
The size of the mess hall we see in the early stages of the movie is also an indication of the limited size and carrying capacity of the Sulaco.


Well I think the +2000 is indicative of an emergency situation - kind of like how you could in a pinch put 10000 people on an aircraft carrier. But with that said, all we have to go on is the CMTM. Nothing else. Who's to say there weren't squad messes, or that with the short compliment, they reconvened in a smaller nominal officers' mess? However, the presence of two dropships is a bit more compelling, although I still think it's kind of wonky to have a huge ship with only fourteen Marines on board: Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez, Dietrich, Apone, Wierzbaski, Frost, Ferro, Spunkmeyer, Crowe, Gorman, Bishop, then Ripley and Burke taking a berth themselves.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting my foot down and saying "No I'm right, you're all wrong"...I just think that James Cameron is a better storyteller than student of things military ;)


Now, as for the bunching in the atmosphere processor, it's human nature to group together like that in unfamiliar situations. Totally against tactical common sense, true, but those were also some very tight areas. My guess is that if they'd spread out it may have actually worked against them given the aliens could have picked them off one by one at their leisure.


(Actually having played the Atmo. processing maps in coop Aliens v. Predator - the original from Rebellion Studios that came out for the PC in like '98 or so - this is actually kind of true...)


The 3 eggs on the dropship is something I don't buy either. The whole 3rd movie was a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. Sure there were some nice highlights, but the overall concept and storyline just didn't' hang together for me.
I had the opportunity to read the original draft for the 3rd movie a couple of years back - COMPLETELY different. Set on a space station, Ripely was injured early on and in a coma most of the duration, Hicks lives and becomes the hero and I can't remember what happened to Newt (survived I think). Bishop also got a run as well, but again I can't remember details. Ends in an evac of the station by a handful of survivors.
Some of the ideas were a bit dodgy, but as it was only a first draft....[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that was cyberpunk author William Gibson's treatment of an Alien3 draft. His take was that VERY early on, Ripley is injured by trigger happy Chinese soldiers who board the Sulaco when it, on autopilot, drifts into Chinese "space". They find Bishop and IIRC the inside of his hypersleep chamber is described as being like a terrarium - beaded with water and steam. As soon as they crack it open, its revealed an egg had developed in there (the how and why is explained later) and it is taken off. The Chinese rebuild Bishop, Ripley (comatose due to the weapons fire) is put in the infirmary, Newt is stuck in an office somewhere and Hicks bands together with some less-than-communistically-correct soldiers to rescue her once it comes clear that due to some around-fucking by Chinese scientists the Xenomorphs can now reproduce by virus. If you get the Alien "goo" on you, you'll turn in to one.

[Legbreaker]

That draft was a bit out there, but still more believable than what ended up running with! :(

[Webstral]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting my foot down and saying "No I'm right, you're all wrong"...I just think that James Cameron is a better storyteller than student of things military ;)

Most storytellers fit this description. Dale Dye has a made decent money closing the gap.

[Targan]

I don't believe it. 24 hours ago there's no way in hell I'd have thought it even remotely possible, but it's true.

I'm GMing an Aliens game this week end, f2f with at least 5 players, all willing, able and ready to go toe to toe with those lovable acid for blood critters who only want to be our friends!

Excited? Who me?

:D

I'm. So. Damned. Jealous. If I hadn't just got the news that I've been given a double promotion at work after 10 months in the job I'd take some snap leave and fly to Tassie this weekend! Nice work Leg. I'll be there in spirit.

[Raellus]

Yeah, that was cyberpunk author William Gibson's treatment of an Alien3 draft. His take was that VERY early on, Ripley is injured by trigger happy Chinese soldiers who board the Sulaco when it, on autopilot, drifts into Chinese "space". They find Bishop and IIRC the inside of his hypersleep chamber is described as being like a terrarium - beaded with water and steam. As soon as they crack it open, its revealed an egg had developed in there (the how and why is explained later) and it is taken off. The Chinese rebuild Bishop, Ripley (comatose due to the weapons fire) is put in the infirmary, Newt is stuck in an office somewhere and Hicks bands together with some less-than-communistically-correct soldiers to rescue her once it comes clear that due to some around-fucking by Chinese scientists the Xenomorphs can now reproduce by virus. If you get the Alien "goo" on you, you'll turn in to one.

I've watched Aliens @ least 50 times and Gibson's Sprawl Trilogy is probably my favorite Sci-Fi work ever. The idea of a Gibson-penned Aliens sequel (instead of the disappointing one that ended up getting made) is mind-blowingly awesome. I've never read/heard about this before? Why didn't it go through?

[Targan]

The Sulaco and it's sister vessels were probably pretty modular in their loadout. Maybe they can carry 2000 people in hypersleep if the entire drop ship bay and cargo areas are filled with hypersleep pods?

I think most of the blame for the feeble size of the force sent to LV426 can be laid on Burke. He and Weyland-Yutani Corporation clearly have enormous political and military influence. It was in their best interests to have a small team sent as it would be easier for Burke to manipulate the situation to his and WYC's advantage. Same reason that Gorman was assigned mission commander.

[Raellus]

My interpretation of many of the holes in the Aliens film is that a lot of it was intentional. I think the movie is as much a commentary on the power of multi-national corporations as it is on the military mismanagement that led to our defeat in Vietnam. The company set the whole thing up. The corporation likely paid for the expedition so such a small force was justified to the military on the basis of cost. The company aslo wanted maximum control on the ground so they made sure an inexperienced officer (likely with poor marks from whatever academy produces Colonial Marine officers) in charge. Heck, the company may even have had a hand in choosing the "platoon" that was sent- they seemed to have their share of screw ups. I suppose the corporate influence on the military theme could have also been a commentary on the Vietnam situation as well.

On a sidenote, I believe Ripley is one of the most positive female role models in all of film- her and Clarice Starling- and I'd like my daughter to see the film. Unfrotunately, my wife doesn't see this my way. I'm not sure what her problem is. SThe wife's not really a fan of either Aliens or Silence of the Lambs. It's either that or the fact that my daughter's only 4...

[Legbreaker]

I'm. So. Damned. Jealous. If I hadn't just got the news that I've been given a double promotion at work after 10 months in the job I'd take some snap leave and fly to Tassie this weekend! Nice work Leg. I'll be there in spirit.

You know what's even better?
It's show day here (well, actually Thursday to Saturday) and one of the players is coming straight from there still dressed in his Star Wars storm trooper armour.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The Sulaco and it's sister vessels were probably pretty modular in their loadout. Maybe they can carry 2000 people in hypersleep if the entire drop ship bay and cargo areas are filled with hypersleep pods?


That's the implication in the CMTM: that the 2000 will fill cargo/flight bays, but it can be done (they also imply that the ship's powerplant can run an additional 2000; I'd imagine that this load-out would be strictly for evacuation of a colony or post-war troop return).


I think most of the blame for the feeble size of the force sent to LV426 can be laid on Burke. He and Weyland-Yutani Corporation clearly have enormous political and military influence. It was in their best interests to have a small team sent as it would be easier for Burke to manipulate the situation to his and WYC's advantage. Same reason that Gorman was assigned mission commander.

[natehale1971]

i use to have the official Aliens RPG book that was done, we ran it with our group back in the day. The company went to the LV426 and found the wrecked starship full of eggs since the processor going nova had only destroyed the colony centre. Our characters were mostly US Army Rangers and a couple US Space Force (space navy) personnel who had been assigned to a colony planet where the company set up a topsecret lab that ended up becoming a hive. the entire game was our characters trying to protect the colonists until they could be evacuated from the planet, and the planet could be sterlized with nuking from orbit.

The planet was an agricultural colony full of genetically bred cattle, sheep and other live stock that became perfect for use as incubators by the Aliens...

[DCausey]

I got to play a couple sessions of the Aliens RPG about 10 years ago. Four USCM fireteams from the Draknor boarding a derelict ship. Just to tell you what kind of players these were, we suffered casualties *before* we met the aliens!

Due to clumsiness and conflicting orders, mostly. :o It was fun though, I wished we could have finished it.

[Targan]

Anyone else here a fan of the Badass of the Week website? Here is the Badass look at Ellen Ripley: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/ripley.html

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Alien 3 gets a lot of flak (not unjustifiably) because it is a flawed movie. Unfortunately there was constant 'creative' interference from the studio during filming and the movie that director David Fincher actually filmed was, in the end, butchered during the editing and final production to make the movie you all know and loathe.

The original concept for Fincher's movie was that the prisoners on the planet had basically formed a monastic society to cope with their life imprisonment. They had become religious and devout in their obedience to their faith and the feel of the movie was supposed to convey a sense of monasticism, the mythic qualities of gothic cathedrals and the organization of an ordered lifestyle that is upset by the arrival the 'outsider' and the chaos she brings.

Ripley's arrival brought with her the fear of the serpent being released into the "monks" Garden of Eden (note that in the pre-Christian beliefs of Europe, the serpent and dragon were one and the same, although not specifically associated with evil, so the references in the movie to the dragon can be explained - unfortunately this is lost in the theatrical release). Ripley brings with her the Alien, i.e. the dragon, the evil that will bring chaos and destroy the life the prisoners have been leading.
If you can see the 'Assembly Cut', a lot of the removed footage is restored and more of what Fincher wanted to achieve can be seen, it does bring a different feel to the movie.

[Raellus]

So who else is excited for Prometheus (opening here in the U.S. next Friday)?

I get goose bumps just watching the TV trailer. I'm preparing myself by watching Alien today. It's been a while.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

So who else is excited for Prometheus (opening here in the U.S. next Friday)?

I get goose bumps just watching the TV trailer. I'm preparing myself by watching Alien today. It's been a while.

I am PUMPED.

Also: http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Colonial-Marines-Technical-Manual/dp/1781161313/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

IF YOU DON'T OWN A COPY BUY ONE RIGHT NOW.

[Rainbow Six]

The trailer looks brilliant but the missus doesn't like sci fi films or horror films so the chances of getting her to go and see a film that combines the two are fairly remote. I'll probably wait for the DVD...

Interesting that it's not released in the US until next week. It's released here today. I always thought films (especially big Hollywood blockbusters) were generally released over there first.

[Webstral]

I'm anxious. Sequels and spin-offs often are written, directed, and/or produced by people who don't understand why previous work worked.

[Raellus]

I'm anxious. Sequels and spin-offs often are written, directed, and/or produced by people who don't understand why previous work worked.

True. But this one is directed and I think produced by Ridley Scott, the guy who directed the original Alien.

I am PUMPED.

Also: http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Colonial-Marines-Technical-Manual/dp/1781161313/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

IF YOU DON'T OWN A COPY BUY ONE RIGHT NOW.

God bless you. I thought it was out of print. Just placed my order.

[boogiedowndonovan]

So who else is excited for Prometheus (opening here in the U.S. next Friday)?

I get goose bumps just watching the TV trailer. I'm preparing myself by watching Alien today. It's been a while.

oh yeah! I am!

Charlize Theron!!!!!!!!

(but I probably won't watch it until much later)

5UEv03g51kU

[Tegyrius]

God bless you. I thought it was out of print. Just placed my order.

It was. I'm amazed to see it available again. Time was, you couldn't find a copy for less than $100.

- C.

[DigTw0Grav3s]

A couple thoughts from a relative newcomer of the board. I apologize for the timing, considering that things seem to have calmed down, but now seems to be the time to do so.

First, a little bit about me. I never played the T2k product line. I was brought aboard through Twilight 2013. Accordingly, I don't have a lot of the same mores regarding canon vs non-canon, unit dispositions throughout the timeline, and the like. I don't expect this to carry any weight - in fact, I would bet that it reduces my "authenticity" - but it illustrates my background.

The tone on this forum is truly bizarre. People seem to be more interested in debating the nature of canon rather than simply cooking up their own versions and sharing them with others. I find the confrontational nature of the board absurd.

I am twenty-four years old. I seem to gather that the crowd here is much older than I am, given the date of the original T2k and some of the life experiences that I've seen related to one another in posts. Why, then, can't we all get along? Is this anyone's first forum? This is a board about an exchange of ideas and creation of new material. Calling one another out about the canon status of various material is simply stupid. This is a work of fiction about a war that never occurred.

If people need to be removed from the boards because of confrontational behavior, then I would submit that it be done immediately. I've spent a great deal of time on forums during my life. In my experience, people's personalities (perhaps "personas" is more accurate) do not change. Their troublesome personalities simply ebb and flow like a sine wave until something breaks. Given the tone, I would say that we are pretty close to something breaking.

Also, someone please get Eddie to come back. He was one of the principle reasons that I perused this board, as he was on the 93 Games board. I enjoyed his no bullshit attitude and his experience in a field directly relevant to our alternate history pursuits.

Thanks,
DigTw0Grav3s
(Earlydawn)

[raketenjagdpanzer]

man what

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Apologies; didn't see the older dates earlier in the thread. Thought that this thread was more recent, and that the arguments had spilled over into this one.

Nevertheless, I still feel like it's a pretty accurate reflection on a new guy's thoughts with regard to what's been going on lately.

On the positive side, does this mean that Eddie has since come back?

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I don't know but can we maybe discuss Aliens and so forth in this thread? And not site acrimony?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I don't know but can we maybe discuss Aliens and so forth in this thread? And not site acrimony?

Fair enough point but at least give DigTw0Grav3s the courtesy of directing him to a more appropriate thread for his post.

[Raellus]

My copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual arrived in the mail today. It's pretty dang cool. I especially like the little color blurbs between tech entries- they really add a lot of flavor to the otherwise fairly dry techical text. The multiple mentions of various OPFOR groups (Beebops, Bugboys, Slinkers) make me really curious about the conflicts that the USCMs engaged in outside of the Alien engagements committed to film, since very little additional context was given. It's clear that the Beebops are a nickname for Japanese forces, but the others are anyone's guess. Was the author just shooting from the hip or is there some more fleshed-out USCMs mythos* out there that I'm not aware of? Either way, he did a really convincing job.

On a T2K-related note, the USMC tanks ( including the M40 Ridgeway [sic]) look very much like the LAV-75 (with a dash of Merkava mixed in).

*I've seen covers from a comic book series based on the USCM but I haven't read or looked within.

[Dunny]

You know what's even better?
It's show day here (well, actually Thursday to Saturday) and one of the players is coming straight from there still dressed in his Star Wars storm trooper armour.
D'aww, sure is nice to be bragged about. It's a damn shame that most of the party moved to the mainland, that was a good, fun game on a system that, I have to admit, I quite enjoyed.

[Targan]

Wow, a Tassie Dunny! I've never even been in one let alone met one. Cool. :D

[raketenjagdpanzer]

My copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual arrived in the mail today. It's pretty dang cool. I especially like the little color blurbs between tech entries- they really add a lot of flavor to the otherwise fairly dry techical text. The multiple mentions of various OPFOR groups (Beebops, Bugboys, Slinkers) make me really curious about the conflicts that the USCMs engaged in outside of the Alien engagements committed to film, since very little additional context was given. It's clear that the Beebops are a nickname for Japanese forces, but the others are anyone's guess. Was the author just shooting from the hip or is there some more fleshed-out USCMs mythos* out there that I'm not aware of? Either way, he did a really convincing job.

On a T2K-related note, the USMC tanks ( including the M40 Ridgeway [sic]) look very much like the LAV-75 (with a dash of Merkava mixed in).

*I've seen covers from a comic book series based on the USCM but I haven't read or looked within.

I remember back in the day, even before filesharing became so rampant, having a (bad) scan of it and thinking the same thing about the M40. Also, I kinda prefer the whole USCM book as a stand-alone item with the xenos being nothing but background clutter. :) Which it works out they are!

[JHart]

Was the author just shooting from the hip or is there some more fleshed-out USCMs mythos* out there that I'm not aware of? Either way, he did a really convincing job.


If I recall correctly, when Ripley was being debriefed by the corporate suits, one of the suits said that there was no recorded contact with sentient aliens.

Hudson complains of a "bug hunt", which I always assumed that humans had to deal with non-sentient xenos on colony worlds.
Frost mentions of having relations with an alien.

Of course the Predators may just be waiting for the humans to become a bigger threat before picking a fight.

You know, I just had the thought that maybe Weyland-Yutani had such a hard on for getting an Alien specimen to develop weapons is because they know that Predators exist

[Targan]

You know, I just had the thought that maybe Weyland-Yutani had such a hard on for getting an Alien specimen to develop weapons is because they know that Predators exist

I agree. From post #63 of this thread:

As was the crew of the Nostromo in the original Alien film. It seems that a prime directive had been secretly inserted into all the master computers in the Weyland-Yutani starship fleet in an effort to find alien technology. Of course once the Alien Vs Predator films came out we could understand why. Weyland Corporation knew of the existance of extraterrestrial intelligent life late in the 20th or early in the 21st century and then spent the next couple of hundred years looking for it off-planet.

[Legbreaker]

Was the author just shooting from the hip or is there some more fleshed-out USCMs mythos out there that I'm not aware of? Either way, he did a really convincing job.

The RPG details a few other alien races, but nothing with anything like the intelligence displayed by the Aliens. There's Arcturians (Frost mentions them in the Sulaco mess hall), Blackbody Coral, Harvesters, Hyper Algae, Morphers, Panamar Plankton, and Brachous Slugs. Only the Arcturians and Harvesters pose any threat to humans, and the Arcturians no threat to anyone with rock to throw. The others are actually useful in one way or another.

The RPG also splits known space into sectors, each controlled by a different corporation, or syndicate of corporations. Earth is a cesspool which the corporations try to avoid as much as possible except when they need someone expendable.

[Raellus]

Interesting. Thanks for the info, Leg. The CMTM seems to present a slightly different picture than the RPG, then. Although it implies that corporations are still very powerful, the basic economic-political unit seems to be international alliances in the vein of a more pumped-up EU type. The CMTM mentions the United Americas as being the "national" entity which the USCM serves. It specifically mentions that Panama and Argentina are both part of this organization, loosely implying that all of the Americas are members as well. Although it looks like big multinational corporations can sway these political entities, it looks like nation-states or confederations of said still have the final say.

Also, Earth in the CMTM doesn't sound too bad. The USCM has several major bases there still.

I'm thinking out loud now. I mean, if corporations totally ran the show, they would likely have their own organic military forces, right? Also, from the existence of the United Americas, one could extrapolate there are similar confederations for other regions. A new EU, an African Union, some East Asian union, SW Asia union, perhaps? I dunno. It's fun to think about.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I kind of like the "universe" as presented in the CMTM (what I recall, again, from the scan I'd seen years back), such as it was.

[Legbreaker]

The CMTM was written with reference to the RPG as well as the movie, however it's very much from the viewpoint of the marines who've never encountered anything all that nasty besides other humans. Post "Aliens", provided the information got out, things might change somewhat.

I mean, if corporations ran the show, they would likely have their own militaries, right? Also, from the existence of the United Americas, one could extrapolate there are similar confederations for other regions. A new EU, an African Union, some East Asian union, SW Asia union, perhaps. I dunno. It's fun to think about.

In the RPG, yes, absolutely. The Corporations certainly do have their own armies, often filled with head hunted ex-colonial marines. Although they're more involved with security and corporate espionage, they do from time to time engage in "traditional" battles. The Corporate militaries are also much better equipped than the Colonial Marines.
The time of ALIENS is a chaotic one. Humanity is expanding into the stars and establishing new outposts and new colonies, but society is in danger of unravelling. The Nations of Earth have lost most of their power, and in their place the Corporations which led the way into space stand as the new rulers of Humanity. The transition of power from the Nations to the Corporations is an uneasy one, and confrontations are common.
Because of this, there is far more violence now than there was a generation ago. The Corporations used to be sensible enough to settle matters in court and take their legal losses with restraint. Now, issues which would normally go through the legal system cannot be allowed to drag on that long, especially if the case might end unfavourably. Everyone is more desperate than before, and Corporate and Mercenary forces are much more eager to cut out a piece of the future than ever before. Companies are changing hands so rapidly, with debts left unpaid and countless promises broken, that dozens of financial entities might hold title to a single piece of valuable property.
In the midst of the chaos, the Colonial Marine Corps stands as Humanity's peacekeeping force. It is the Corps which is charged with seeing that disputes are settled through law rather than violence, and which protects Colonists from unknown dangers and from sabotage by rival Corporations. Unfortunately, the Colonial Marine Corps depends on the Nations of Earth for financing and technology, and the Nations are no longer strong enough to support them. Because of this, the Colonial Marines are few in number and many places are beyond their reach. At the same time, Corporate military forces are more numerous and better equipped, and an increasing number of Colonial Marine commanders owe their real loyalty to Corporations rather than to the Corps. Faced with dangerous life forms, Human criminals, Corporate militaries, and internal corruption, the Colonial Marine Corps attempts to safeguard the future and well being of Humanity.
One good thing is that battles are now fought on a smaller scale than the wars of earlier centuries. The transportation of troops and equipment from world to world is expensive and time consuming, and the sophisticated military equipment being used means that the military profession belongs to an elite group of capable, highly trained people. Combined with the desire of the Corporations to avoid the destruction of factories and other economic resources, these facts have created military forces that use small numbers of well-equipped troops for clearly defined missions. For the Colonial Marine Corps, these Missions range from conflicts with Corporate forces to assaults on renegades and confrontations with new and dangerous life forms.
Because of the costs involved in sending troops across space, the Corporations prefer to have the Colonial marines do much of the heavy lifting whenever they can, much like occurred in the second movie.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The CMTM also mentions the US Army in a couple of spots, IIRC, once in a throw away line and another time in the organizational section. But nothing that would really give an idea of what the Army is, what role it fills, etc.

[Cdnwolf]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1446714/

The prequel???

[raketenjagdpanzer]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1446714/

The prequel???

Yeah, you didn't know about that one?

Looks fantastic, I can't wait to see it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

You know, this book plus Hero System 5e + Science Fiction supplement = some RPG goodness. I'd love to get a game going someday. Ignoring the Xenos, even, just using everything else.

[James Langham]

My copy of the Colonial Marines Technical Manual arrived in the mail today. It's pretty dang cool. I especially like the little color blurbs between tech entries- they really add a lot of flavor to the otherwise fairly dry techical text. The multiple mentions of various OPFOR groups (Beebops, Bugboys, Slinkers) make me really curious about the conflicts that the USCMs engaged in outside of the Alien engagements committed to film, since very little additional context was given. It's clear that the Beebops are a nickname for Japanese forces, but the others are anyone's guess. Was the author just shooting from the hip or is there some more fleshed-out USCMs mythos* out there that I'm not aware of? Either way, he did a really convincing job.

On a T2K-related note, the USMC tanks ( including the M40 Ridgeway [sic]) look very much like the LAV-75 (with a dash of Merkava mixed in).

*I've seen covers from a comic book series based on the USCM but I haven't read or looked within.

You may now see where I got the inspiration for my article techniques...

[Raellus]

You may now see where I got the inspiration for my article techniques...

Ah, yes. In the right hands, it definitely works.

[Raellus]

You know, this book plus Hero System 5e + Science Fiction supplement = some RPG goodness. I'd love to get a game going someday. Ignoring the Xenos, even, just using everything else.

Agreed. I find myself daydreaming scenarios for a platoon of Colonial Marines...

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Agreed. I find myself daydreaming scenarios for a platoon of Colonial Marines...

Remove the Xenomorphs almost entirely, throw everything else into the Hammers Slammers universe sans hovertanks and powerguns...MMM...delicious.

[boogiedowndonovan]

Yeah, you didn't know about that one?

Looks fantastic, I can't wait to see it.

yeah I can't wait to see Prometheus either. Charlize Theron!

our friends across the atlantic already have a chance to see it. They released Prometheus early over in Europe because of some soccer tournament.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1446714/releaseinfo

the wikipedia for Prometheus already has a plot synopsis.

[simonmark6]

The European Cup. Interestingly enough, the English team are based in Krakow.

[Rainbow Six]

They released Prometheus early over in Europe because of some soccer tournament.

Only arguably the second biggest football tournament in the World after the World Cup...

[Raellus]

The European Cup. Interestingly enough, the English team are based in Krakow.

And Poland plays today. I have a soft spot for them due to all the time in spend in Poland (in my mind) thanks to T2K.

[simonmark6]

Only arguably the second biggest football tournament in the World after the World Cup...

Actually it's the third largest watched televised sporting event after the World Cup (Football) and The Summer Olympics, if it isn't rained off this year...

[Rainbow Six]

And Poland plays today. I have a soft spot for them due to all the time in spend in Poland (in my mind) thanks to T2K.

I'm just settling down to watch the game.

I was going to ask you for a prediction - I seem to recall you did pretty well calling the World Cup...;)

FWIW my money (literally) is on Germany.

[Rainbow Six]

Actually it's the third largest watched televised sporting event after the World Cup (Football) and The Summer Olympics, if it isn't rained off this year...

I'm trying to decide whether rain will enhance the beach volleyball or not...

[simonmark6]

I think the costumes are pretty rain proof, plus there's not much of tehm to get wet.

[Webstral]

Saw Prometheus. I'll hold my peace until others can chime in.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Saw Prometheus. I'll hold my peace until others can chime in.

Saw it, loved it, seeing it again tomorrow.
For anyone who knows the lore surrounding the Alien movies (not including number 4) and have a familiarity with the lore of BladeRunner, there's a lot to be seen in Prometheus.

Ignore the critics, ignore the haters, you have to see it for yourself and make up your own mind.

Keep in mind that Ridley Scott originally filmed it for an R rating and then trimmed it back to get an M rating (M ratings recoup their costs faster). The claim is that when the DVD gets released it will have his original "R rating" version so there will possibly be more to find out in that version.

[Raellus]

Saw it yesterday. I was pretty thoroughly entertained but left feeling a little unsatisfied. There were a couple of significant loose ends, I felt, and, IMHO, it was made a little too complicated at times. Alien and Aliens worked so well because they were pretty simple, plot-wise. Overall, though, I found it to be incredibly suspenseful and visually stunning to behold.


SPOILER ALERT:

My wife, who was 28 and pretty fit at the time, had an emergency C-section with our first child and there's no way someone who's just undergone that procedure is going to be running and jumping around just minutes afterwards. Even if she was all drugged up and pumped full of synthetic adrenaline or whatever, your abdominal muscles are shot for a few weeks, at least. Not happening. :rolleyes:

[Webstral]

Having waited for others to say something positive, I'll weigh in. I want my $14 back. My time could have been better invested seeing The Avengers again or just staying home and writing. Apparently, I'm a hater.

[Raellus]

You're entitled to hate. The studios really hyped it up the last couple of weeks- too much, I think- and the final product didn't quite deliver. I'd like to see it again to see if maybe I can pick up something I may have missed the first time.

I saw the Avengers in the theater also and I had some of the same problems with it that I did with Prometheus. The plot was too complicated by half and the baddies were so much canon fodder (a little of that goes a long way, IMHO, and Avengers ran with it for a good 20 minutes). Avengers did make me LOL a few times and I do like Whedon dialogue but, overall, I thought it was pretty overrated. Given the choice, I would see Prometheus again. My wife, who saw both with me, would go with Avengers.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I don't particularly like the superhero genre, too overblown for my tastes so I haven't seen the Avengers but I'm also one of the people completely turned-off by the fact that it's a Whedon movie and so I most likely never will see it. I think Whedon's incapable of writing a mature/sophisticated/complex script and falls back on the same plot points in everything he's written.

As for Prometheus, it seems it is absolutely one of those movies that you either like or hate. It doesn't spoon-feed people the answers (which is all too common in movies these days and something I utterly despise) and probably it's one of those movies that rewards the "initiated", i.e. those who know a lot about the other Alien movies and Scott's other movies (specifically, BladeRunner). It also ties in with the H.P. Lovecraft tale At The Mountains Of Madness and specifically with the legend of the titan Prometheus.

[Targan]

Ah, Prometheus. Saw it today. Much to love, but much not to love also. The future tech, the spaceships, the special effects, all good. The script writing, the behaviour of most of the characters, some of the basic science... utter crap. Any RL archaeologist seeing how the two married "archeologists" acted on archeological sites in the movie would want to slap them into unconsciousness. The lemming-like need for a bunch of the characters to throw themselves into life-threatening danger was breathtakingly frustrating.

*SPOILERS*

Hopefully a sequel will answer some of the big questions raised in the film. Like where the Predators fit in. I suspect the Engineers created the black ooze and other bioweapons as part of an ongoing war with the Predators. One thing that confused me was that the Engineers had near enough to identical DNA to modern humans. But some of the contact on Earth with the Engineers was 35,000 years ago in Scotland. There were no Homo Sapiens in Scotland at that time so the contact must have been with Neanderthals, and Neanderthals would have DNA with some pretty distinct differences to modern humans. So how does all that work? And how does it work that we have a fossil record showing the evolution of non-human primates all the way through to Homo Sapiens? For me it's pretty clear that humans evolved here. Did Engineer DNA spark the evolution of primates but early primates had spectacularly mutated Engineer DNA that slowly evolved back into modern human/Engineer DNA? Cough*bullshit*cough.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

** TOTALLY SPOILER **

Three things I'd like to throw in,

1. Prometheus is a sci-fi B-movie replicating an earlier Ridley Scott sci-fi B-movie (using the same plot points, including killing off all the crew until only one lone woman is left, and even the same camera angles/shots in some cases). And it's seriously funny - the man seeking eternal life creates artificial life and then gets beaten to death with the head of the "man" he created! It's hilarious!

It deals with "things man was not meant to know", just like H.P. Lovecraft writes in his Cthulhu stories - there are Elder Beings in the universe, some have motives that are utterly unknown to us and will never be know. The first movie dealt with a Lovecraftian horror, it can't be killed without risk of killing yourself, it's completely alien to us and it cares not one whit about us. It's for exactly this reason that Guillermo del Toro decided not to push ahead with his film version of Lovecraft's story "At The Mountains Of Madness". He considered that Scott had beaten him to the punch because "Prometheus" follows the same story.

"Prometheus" is not a "hard-science" movie, it's a sci-fi B-movie harking back to the 1950s with all the fears of atomic science unleashing giant ants, giant gila monsters or Godzilla to punish us for playing with the metaphorical fire. Just like the title hints at - play with fire and you will get burnt, play with the gods (or try to be god) and you will get burnt.

2. The movie is not going to give answers to everything, not to the characters in the movie nor to the audience watching it. One of the themes is that there are some questions you will never know the answer to, you must accept what you have and accept it on faith. All the people who saw the movie and are seeking answers are doing exactly what the characters in the movie were doing. Scott has given you no answer, just like the characters in the movie received no answer - you're interactively part of the story.

3. The Predators are highly unlikely to feature in any sequel as Scott does not consider them part of Alien movie lore despite the Predator movies hinting that there's a connection.

[Targan]

3. The Predators are highly unlikely to feature in any sequel as Scott does not consider them part of Alien movie lore despite the Predator movies hinting that there's a connection.

It's a helluva lot more than a hint. And once you've let the genie out of the bottle you can't cram it back in.

There's no reason you can't combine hard science and good science fiction. Heck, the original Alien film was fine as far as hard science goes. Same with Aliens, pretty much. Prometheus is what you get when a series of different writers go to work on what was probably a pretty reasonable script to start with and slowly give it the death of a thousand cuts. And it's also highly symptomatic of what you get when you've got a nice, fat, juicy budget and a target audience with a highly tenuous (if that) grasp of genetics, chemistry, ancient history and paleoanthropology.

I'm firmly of the belief that the best films (or TV programs or whatever) educate at the same time as they entertain.

[Rainbow Six]

It's a helluva lot more than a hint. And once you've let the genie out of the bottle you can't cram it back in.

You can if you're rebooting the franchise. I'm not clear on whether this film is intended to be a prequel or a reboot? If the latter, then going forward the whole Predator link (and the events of both Alien Vs Predator films) can presumably be disregarded by the writers if they wish.

[Targan]

You can if you're rebooting the franchise. I'm not clear on whether this film is intended to be a prequel or a reboot? If the latter, then going forward the whole Predator link (and the events of both Alien Vs Predator films) can presumably be disregarded by the writers if they wish.

Hard to say. The CEO of Weyland Corporation in Alien vs Predator was a middle-aged Charles Bishop Weyland. The CEO of Weyland Corporation in Prometheus is a very elderly Peter Weyland. The two films are set 89 years apart. I guess Peter Weyland could be Charles Weyland's son.

The sad thing is that the AvP films (well IMO certainly the first one) were better than the later Aliens films. I'd be happier to see Ridley Scott et al keep the AvP canon and dump Alien 3 and 4 than keep 3 and 4 and pretend that the AvP films didn't happen. I'd be happiest of all if Ridley Scott just wrapped it all up nicely together somehow. I find that 99% of the time what I want in a film isn't what I get. Then again I accept the fact that I'm probably a good 20 to 30 IQ points higher than the average target audience and have a damn sight better understanding of how the universe works.

[Rainbow Six]

The sad thing is that the AvP films (well IMO certainly the first one) were better than the later Aliens films. I'd be happier to see Ridley Scott et al keep the AvP canon and dump Alien 3 and 4 than keep 3 and 4 and pretend that the AvP films didn't happen. I'd be happiest of all if Ridley Scott just wrapped it all up nicely together somehow.

Yep, I'd agree with most of that (not sure whether I'd keep the second AvP!). To be honest I pretty much lost interest after Aliens...I don't think I've even seen the third one all the way through, only bits of it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The "Aliens and Predators as part of the same universe" idea is only because of an FX set-dresser's joke, really.

[Webstral]

I'd heard that there was a graphic novel pitting Aliens and Predators against each other.

[Targan]

I'd heard that there was a graphic novel pitting Aliens and Predators against each other.

Graphic novels, novels and, of course, two films.

[Webstral]

The films, I've heard, were the result of the popularity of the graphic novel.

[Targan]

The films, I've heard, were the result of the popularity of the graphic novel.

I think you're right there. I read at least the first (non graphic) novel and it was actually pretty good.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I'd heard that there was a graphic novel pitting Aliens and Predators against each other.

Yeah, the AvP comics came first, IIRC.

There's several; Dark Horse Comics traded in a lot of AvP cachet back in the 90s when we were all expecting an Aliens sequel at any time - to the point of publishing a sort of "continuing adventures of Newt, Hicks and Ripley". of course when A3 washed all that away, later TPBs of that series retconned the names of the little girl and the marine, adding some new information about Ripley being cloned and bonding with the girl and the Hicks replacement due to their similarity to Hicks and Newt.

But what I said about the entirety of the AvP crossover being a set-dresser's joke is the truth. The "xenomorph" skull that appears just briefly in the Predator's ship in AvP2.

[Targan]

But what I said about the entirety of the AvP crossover being a set-dresser's joke is the truth. The "xenomorph" skull that appears just briefly in the Predator's ship in AvP2.

Sure, that was the origin of it all, but what's done is done. Film makers rolled with it, they made the Aliens vs Predator films, and now its established canon. And I for one think it's an excellent mix. I think it's very sad that Ridley Scott has nothing but contempt for the crossover canon.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Forward: Targan, I am not having a shot at you, I've been reading a lot of people's comments on Prometheus and there's a whole lot of haters out there. My comments are aimed at them in general.

As far as I know, Scott didn't say he had contempt for the AvP material, he just said that the two didn't mix. AvP was made simpy as a money maker for Fox, it has it's origins with Dark Horse wanting to make money out of the notion, just like the other comic crossovers like Batman vs. Superman or the old Universal Studios horror movies with Frankenstein versus Wolfman versus Dracula and so on. They may exist but it doesn't mean they are canon.

What started as a set-dressers little in-joke has been taken to heart by many but none of the film makers associated with the original Alien or Predator movies seriously considered doing a crossover. Dark Horse saw a way to make money and Fox picked up on it, it wasn't a film makers decision but a studio execs decision.

James Cameron had been working with Scott at one point to make further Alien movies and for various reasons and their other work, they didn't push ahead with it. Cameron was approached by Fox to continue the project and while he was interested, Fox wanted a money maker and suggested that the Predators be thrown in to make it more exciting.
Cameron said no because it destroys the integrity of both the Alien and Predator movies. Fox, seeing the chance to make a crowd pleaser and hence make lots of money, called Paul W.S. (Waste of Skin) Anderson in to make the AvP movie.

I've seen the first AvP movie and was not impressed, the leaps of logic and the lack of common sense displayed by the characters echoes all the criticisms that people throw at Prometheus. For example, one guy in the AvP movie decides that because (allegedly) the earlier civilizations used a decimal maths system, that the pyramid the characters are trapped in will change configuration every 10 minutes. Excuse me, what? That's a leap of logic so wide even Evel Knieval couldn't cross it.

It stuns me that people will critize Prometheus because they claim real scientists don't act like that or the science doesn't make any sense or the characters did stupid things but Peter Parker can get bitten by a radioactive spider and suddenly climb up vertical surfaces and that's perfectly acceptable.

I work with "real scientists" (chemists, geochemists, geologists, geographers) and some of them are f**king morons, very smart in their selected field but completely stupid at real life. I've watched them drop cyanide powder and then stand around for minutes wondering what to do, I've watched them get sulphuric acid on their gloves then scratch their head then later complain that their head is itchy. Scientists are just like normal people and prone to all the same emotions and stupidities that normal people have. And in some cases they're worse.

After all is said and done, Prometheus is just a movie, not real life. It's a mythological tale of horror set against the backdrop of science fiction and it replicates, in fact parallels, the Alien movie, in some cases using exactly the same cinematography and music score. It's up to the individual what they get out of the movie but there is a lot more going on in this movie than can be seen on the surface.

[Targan]

As far as I know, Scott didn't say he had contempt for the AvP material, he just said that the two didn't mix.Admittedly I was massively paraphrasing. What Scott has said is that he's never seen the AvP films and has no interest in doing so. I interpreted that as contempt but I can't claim to know exactly what's in his head. For the record I think Ridley Scott is a genius. I've been watching his series Prophets of Science Fiction and absolutely loving it.

For example, one guy in the AvP movie decides that because (allegedly) the earlier civilizations used a decimal maths system, that the pyramid the characters are trapped in will change configuration every 10 minutes. Excuse me, what? That's a leap of logic so wide even Evel Knieval couldn't cross it.Yeah, that's an odd leap of logic. As far as I know, there are 60 minutes in an hour and 24 hours in a day because the Babylonians used a base 60 numbering system.

It stuns me that people will critize Prometheus because they claim real scientists don't act like that or the science doesn't make any sense or the characters did stupid things but Peter Parker can get bitten by a radioactive spider and suddenly climb up vertical surfaces and that's perfectly acceptable.To me (and I'm just speaking for myself here) there are big differences between the superheroes genre and 'hard' science fiction like Alien et al, especially in terms of how far the viewer's suspension of disbelief is expected to stretch.

I work with "real scientists" (chemists, geochemists, geologists, geographers) and some of them are f**king morons, very smart in their selected field but completely stupid at real life.I know what you mean (my mum is a botanist and my stepfather is a marine biologist so I'm regularly exposed to scientists when visiting mum's place) but seriously, archaeologists would never tramp all over a dig site, they'd transect it and cautiously take to it with anything from shovels to toothbrushes. Both on earth and on LV-233 the "archaeologists" acted like criminal vandals.

After all is said and done, Prometheus is just a movie, not real life. It's a mythological tale of horror set against the backdrop of science fiction and it replicates, in fact parallels, the Alien movie, in some cases using exactly the same cinematography and music score. It's up to the individual what they get out of the movie but there is a lot more going on in this movie than can be seen on the surface.That's all true. Well put.

[Raellus]

SSC, I'd like to thank you for pointing out the link between Prometheus and At the Mountains of Madness. I am reading it now, for the first time, and it's readily apparent how many other authors and movie makers have drawn upon it for inspiration. I bought a big tome of collected Lovecraft stories a year or so ago, read a few of them (including the Call of what's-its-face that is so influential) and then put it back on the shelf. I wouldn't have thought to pick it up again if it weren't for you.

I don't agree that Prometheus is a b-movie. Perhaps I have a different understanding of what a b-movie is. To my mind, it's a very low-budget effort with minimal or nonsensical story and generally poor acting. I don't think Prometheus met any of those criteria.

I liked the first Predator film (now there's a b-movie, at least acting-wise), but I was 15 or so when I saw it the first time. I was 16 or 17 when I saw the sequel and I didn't particularly care for it. I also didn't much care for the third Aliens film and the fourth one, IMHO, was complete rubbish. In the right hands, I think the two universes could coexist quite well. From what little I've seen or heard, the first two attempts fell far short of the mark. I will confess that I haven't seen any of the AvP movies. Judging purely by the previews, I figured they would all be wastes of time and money and tarnish the fond memories that I have of Aliens, a film I loved as a teenager (I must have seen it at least 30 times by now), and still really enjoy.

[Targan]

Ironically At the Mountains of Madness has been cited (in the AvP Wikipedia article) as being a major influence on the first Aliens vs Predator film. Raellus, the first Alien vs Predator film is worth watching. I remember being particularly struck by the founder of Weyland Corporation having Bishop's face (well vice versa really). That was an awesome touch IMO.

[Webstral]

...Peter Parker can get bitten by a radioactive spider and suddenly climb up vertical surfaces and that's perfectly acceptable.

After all is said and done, Prometheus is just a movie, not real life. It's a mythological tale of horror set against the backdrop of science fiction and it replicates, in fact parallels, the Alien movie, in some cases using exactly the same cinematography and music score. It's up to the individual what they get out of the movie...

We each carry a readiness to suspend disbelief to a given work of fiction. Not only does that level vary from person to person, it varies within the same person depending on what we’re watching. You’re absolutely right that Spiderman as a concept requires a generous portion of suspension of disbelief before you even walk into the theater. “The Avengers” requires viewers to accept a super soldier who survived being frozen for decades who possesses a shield of supermetal, an extradimensional humanoid with power over lightning, a man who turns into an ogre with virtually limitless strength and invulnerable skin (where does that extra mass come from?), the existence of powered battle armor (not so far off) that runs on a self-contained power source small enough to fit in a cavity inside the wearer’s chest (still a ways off), a helicopter-type aircraft carrier, and on and on. Let’s not even talk about the costs to New York City of repairing all these superhero duke-‘em-outs. I’m willing to cut the superhero movies slack that I don’t generally cut science fiction, which means I’m using at least a double standard.

Within a given film, though, there ought to be some internal logic that goes beyond advancing the plot and creating the types of scenes that define the genre. “AvP” is a perfect example of a film that revolved around creating a handful of fanboy-type scenes and shitcanned the integrity (if such a word is appropriate) of its source material by so doing. I’ve always disliked the “Superman v Batman” stories because they are more a reflection of idle discussion taken too seriously and punctuated by the occasional “Dude, don’t bogart that” than an attempt to tell a good story. Many of the characters of “Prometheus” behave as though they are in a very different context. I would be willing to entertain the idea that the underlying message is that human beings are basically fools. This, however, seems inconsistent with the underlying message of “Alien” and “Aliens” that human beings suffer as a result of decisions made by leaders who have serious flaws.

Still, one needs to get what one needs to get from a film. I love “The Wrath of Khan”, but in reality the whole Star Trek universe is silly. The best that can be said is that a) everything shown is a metaphor adapted to its audience and b) when it’s at its best, internal logic is pretty good. When it’s at its worst, internal logic can be pretty shoddy.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I haven't seen Prometheus yet, but I plan to. (I'm not concerned about spoilers either, already looked it up on the internet). I ended up seeing the #1 movie in America the past weekend.

Anyone here a fan of the American TV show Lost? One of the creators of Lost is the screenwriter who edited the original script. If you've watched Lost, you will know there were a lot of plot twists and unresolved questions. I can see why there were a lot of mixed reviews, as I think a lot of people were expecting something similar to Aliens.

btw my comment about Prometheus being released early in Europe because of "some soccer tournament" was supposed to be a sarcastic type comment about the stereotypical American who doesn't pay attention to anything outside the USA. :D

-bdd

[DocSavage45B10]

Prometheus had much potential, and if Ridley Scott was still doing as much drugs as he was when he was making Bladerunner and Alien, it'd probably be better.

How do you throw away massive audience recognition and buy in of your visual design by saying that all the lovely HR Giger bits of the Space Jocky are his space suit, and he's really just a -Zendrati-, err, Promethian giant man thing.

Gah!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

SSC, I'd like to thank you for pointing out the link between Prometheus and At the Mountains of Madness...
You're most welcome. I've been a minor fan of Lovecraft's horror for some time and I'm constantly surprised (and often very happy) to find how much influence his writings had on latterday writers or movie makers. It's part of the reason I've gotten in so deep with the Alien movies along with the Evil Dead, Reanimator, The Thing, Prince Of Darkness and In The Mouth Of Madness movies amongst others.

[Raellus]

This could be cool. Or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Colonial-Marines-Xbox-360/dp/B005THAX5Q/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1342555472&sr=8-3&keywords=colonial+marines

[Raellus]

This is pretty neat.

http://toybox.io9.com/this-excellent-poster-is-a-handy-guide-to-killing-an-al-1677551944/+charliejane

http://io9.com/neill-blomkamps-secret-alien-movie-looks-so-good-were-f-1677082116

Apparently, the Aliens survival-horror video game (Alien: Isolation) is pretty good. Conversely, the Colonial Marines game was supposed crap.

[kato13]

Conversely, the Colonial Marines game was supposed crap.

One of the few games so bad it spawned a class action lawsuit
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/aliens-colonial-marines-lawsuit-filed-against-sega-and-gearbox/1100-6407789/

[Raellus]

Personally, I could do without all the sequels after Aliens and I have mixed feelings about Prometheus and the other rumored pseudo-prequels, but I must admit that this news has me a little hopeful.

http://io9.com/holy-xenomorphs-neill-blomkamp-will-be-making-his-alie-1686663351

If this is true, I hope he doesn't eff it up.

[Tegyrius]

Right there with you. My personal Aliens continuity has only two movies and a bunch of Dark Horse comics.

- C.

[Targan]

http://io9.com/holy-xenomorphs-neill-blomkamp-will-be-making-his-alie-1686663351

If this is true, I hope he doesn't eff it up.

Bloody brilliant.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think people dismiss the third Alien movie too readily, if Fincher had been allowed to continue the movie without studio execs interfering with it, the story would have been more readily apparent.

The prisoners had essentially adopted a monastic lifestyle and then a woman enters their world and brings the "dragon", evil enters their "paradise" and destroys their harmony. Ripley then nobly sacrifices herself to prevent the evil from spreading.
Again, it's very mythic and Lovecraftian but most of the imagery that would have brought that across was cut from the cinema release.

The Assembly Cut makes some of it more apparent but the original notion of the three movies as a tryptych was screwed up by the studio execs telling the film crew how to make the movie (because all they really wanted was a crowd pleaser to pull more money in).
The idea of integrity/continuity of story was considered less important than making money.

The fourth movie I can live without.

My big concern with this new take is that it's a fan appeaser. Apparently it dismisses anything after the second movie. Some people are obviously going to like that but there was so much more to the story with the addition of Alien 3 in its intended form.

Some of you are probably thinking why I'm against fan appeasement films? They cater to the lowest common denominator so they can pull as big a crowd as possible. Any notion of crafting a movie to tell a story is generally replaced by a formula calculated to get bums on seats. They're movies made by economists, not by storytellers.

Unfortunately these days a lot of the general public don't want to think when they watch a movie, hence the general dislike for Universal Soldier: Day Of Reckoning - it's a horror story more than a simplistic action movie and I reckon a lot of the audience didn't understand that (I'm mean for goodness sakes, it's another retelling of Conrad's "Heart Of Darkness" but then, nobody bothers to read novels anymore, let alone see the connections... )

I prefer the story, otherwise I might as well just stick my thumb up my arse, my mind in neutral and watch the latest Waste-of-Skin Anderson/Michael Bay Aliens Vs. Predators Vs. Battleship Vs. Transformers explosion-fest and believe that I am entertained.

[Raellus]

Nobody saw this coming.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/s/alien-won-t-undo-alien-3-resurrection-director-184258582.html

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Nobody saw this coming.

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/s/alien-won-t-undo-alien-3-resurrection-director-184258582.html

I certainly didn't. It straightens out the info I originally had although I still stand by my rant against fan appeasement movies.

[Raellus]

I certainly didn't. It straightens out the info I originally had although I still stand by my rant against fan appeasement movies.

I don't care for them much either, so this article came as a bit of a relief. I am cautiously optimistic now. Also going in the new Alien film's favor is that it seems Mr. Blomkamp is a reflective dude- he recently admitted that he let concept get in the way of story on Elysium, a film that I found a pretty big disappointment (especially since I'd come up with a very similar plot myself, years before the film came out:mad:).

[stormlion1]

I just want to know, will it have Colonial Marines?

[Targan]

A lot of the joy of the first two films was lost to me when they snuffed Hicks and Newt before the third film even started. I'll watch any new Alien/Predator/both together film as a matter of course but to date IMO Aliens was the best of the lot. I'm kind of torn. I'd be happy to see a film in which Hicks survived but then again, I don't like canon being broken.

[Webstral]

I agree with Targan. Killing Hicks and Newt was a mistake. A fine line exists between fiction acknowledging that life is hard and bad things happen on the one hand and just crushing the viewer's hopes. I have real life to crush my hopes. I don't need my entertainment to assist.

[Raellus]

WHAT?!?

How am I just finding out about this?!?

I love Aliens (Alien is good too; the rest can bugger off) and I read any articles that I see about anything directly related to the franchise. I'm also a big William Gibson (of Neuromancer fame) fan. Hell, I interviewed the guy! (Well, I asked him one question on BBC radio.) But anyway, I had no idea that he'd written a script for Alien 3. I'd prefer a film of it, but I'll take comics over nothing.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/dark-horse-is-turning-william-gibsons-alien-3-script-in-1827548457

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm a big fan of Gibson's stories from the day that I first read Neuromancer as a teenager (I bought it at an airport shop while waiting for some relatives to arrive on a flight).
I do think he has periods of disappearing up his own arsehole at times, particularly when he comments on other people's visions of cyberpunk, however I am very interested in seeing his story for Alien.

[pmulcahy11b]

I agree with Targan. Killing Hicks and Newt was a mistake. A fine line exists between fiction acknowledging that life is hard and bad things happen on the one hand and just crushing the viewer's hopes. I have real life to crush my hopes. I don't need my entertainment to assist.

Pretty much the whole third movie, including the premise, sucked, except for possibly information about the alien and some about Weyland-Yutland. And I'm not happy that Ripley ended up with a queen inside of her -- it was good for the script, but again the premise sucked and smacked of desperation to make the third movie work.

[Raellus]

Pretty much the whole third movie, including the premise, sucked, except for possibly information about the alien and some about Weyland-Yutland. And I'm not happy that Ripley ended up with a queen inside of her -- it was good for the script, but again the premise sucked and smacked of desperation to make the third movie work.

Agreed on all points. This is exactly why I'm so stoked about a different script for 3.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'll stick to what I posted earlier - knowing what the director wanted to achieve, I accept the third movie and actually like it in the assembly cut.
As for Ripley being impregnated with an alien, that's an important part of the mythic elements of the story, the "bringing evil into paradise" and her sacrificing herself for the good of humanity concepts that I mentioned before.

The studio is responsible for screwing up the movie, the cinematic release is a bad butcher's job of what it was meant to be.
The novel makes things much more apparent, the alien infects a dog-like creature rather than some bovine and so it's final form is sleeker and faster than the biped form we've seen before and this causes the prisoners to identify it as "the dragon", i.e the devil come to destroy their world and ruin their lives... which is exactly what was going to happen if Weyland-Yutani was ever able to get an example of the alien back to Earth.

Having said all that, it in no way changes my mind that I want to see Gibson's story.
I'll probably buy it as soon as it's released in graphic novel/anthology form.

[Legbreaker]

I heard a rumour just a few weeks ago of James Cameron coming back for Alien 5 and completely tossing the events of the 3rd and 4th movies.
Yes, that means Hicks and Newt would be back and Ripley didn't die on Fiorina (Fury) 161.
Is it true? Damn I hope so!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I myself, think it unlikely.
Besides having ruled out any further involvement with the franchise in 2006, James Cameron is unlikely to throw out some of those films. He follows Ridley Scott's ideas of the story. As far as the studio is concerned, their trust is in Scott and it's his vision of the franchise that they're interested in.

“Alien: Covenant” stumbled at the box office. Is that franchise over?
It was a disappointment, but I trust Ridley [Scott] and Emma [Watts] to know the right story when they find it. When universes are as rich as “Alien,” they can stay in a too familiar groove — in which case you’re in trouble — but they can also find a planet or a storyline or a villain that also lives in that universe that can be groundbreaking.
https://variety.com/2017/film/features/stacey-snider-21st-century-fox-first-year-1202563799/

[Raellus]

AFAIK, Cameron is still busy finishing his Avatar sequels. Last I heard, he had other projects- not Aliens-related- lined up for when the Avatar series wrapped.

A year or two ago, Neil Blonkamp was tapped to helm an Alien 3 RETCON (see earlier in this thread) but that came to naught.

I think the closest we're going to get to a new post Alien-Aliens continuity movie is the comic book I referenced a few posts ago.