kato13
09-10-2008, 03:53 AM
rcaf_777 04-22-2008, 04:15 PM This is an Orbat I have come up with for a Campaign book I am trying to write some material I got from Task Force 34 by David Bober, others I have taken from the GDW publication Going Home, just looking for some feed back, I have assumed that the remains of the Six Fleet in Med would link up with the Task Force for the journey home. So let me know what you guys think
Task Force 34
Background
The following vessels comprised part of Task Force 34 (TF 34), the US Navy’s task force that is tasked to repatriated American troops from Europe to the USA.
USN Elements
USS John Hancock (DD-981) Spruance-Class Destroyer (Flagship)
USS Leahy (CG 16) Converted Leahy Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Wainwright (CG-28), Belknap Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Tattnall (DDG-19), Charles F. Adams Class, Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Talbot (FFG-4), Brooke Class, Frigate
USS Chief (MCM-14), Avenger Class, Mine Countermeasures Ship
USS Corpus Christi, (SNN 705) Los Angles Class, Attack Submarine
USS Edson (DD-946) Forrest Sherman Class Destroyer
USCG Elements
USCGC Tamaroa (WAT/WMEC-166) Coast Guard Cutter
USNS Elements
USS Wichita (AOR-1), Wichita Class, Replenishment Oilier
SS Flickertail State (T-ACS-5), Keystone State Class, Crane Ship
MV Cape Douglas (T-AKR-5052), Cape D Class, Ro-Ro Ship
USS Powhatan (T-ATF-166), Fleet Ocean Tug
USS Grapple (ARS-53), Safeguard Class Salvage Ship
USS Newport (LST 1179), Landing Ship Tank
National Defence Reserve Fleet:
SS American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Barnard Victory, Victory Ship
SS Hattiesburg Victory, Victory Ship
SS Earlham Victory, Victory Ship
SS Occidental Victory, Victory Ship
SS Pan American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Queens Victory, Victory Ship
SS Red Oak Victory, Victory Ship
SS Rider Victory, Victory Ship
SS Winthrop Victory, Victory Ship
Merchant Navy Elements
Vessels from the US
All of these vessels were pressed into service during the beginning of the Twilight war and this represents the last of the western US Shipping assets, most of these ships are commanded and manned by USN personnel most of them are retires recalled to duty.
Aetos Bahamas Flag Bulk Carrier
Cunard Princess Bahamas Flag Cruise Ship
ASL Cygnus Bahamas Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Petrobulk Progress Bahamas Flag Tanker
Stena Searider Bermuda Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Plyos Honduras Flag Bulk Carrier
Topaz Honduras Flag Tug
Amer Asha Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Expedient Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Prince Shaul Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Unselva Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Yannis II Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Hual Margarita Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santos Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santania Panama Flag Tug
Falcon St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Velenje St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Ville Du Harve St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Non Sea-Going Units
Task Force 34 Headquarters Staff
This is main headquarters of the Task Force and Commanded by Rear Admiral Craig Sheeley, he has staff of 50 officers and enlisted sailors, it quartered aboard the USS Leahy
Navy Mobile Construction Battalion 23
COMSCLANT has assigned the Seabees of NMCB 23 to support quayside and engineering operations at Bremerhaven during the embarkation of US personnel. The battalion has an H&S Company and five Seabee companies 90 men in total. The Seabees are to repair damaged port facilities and established temporary electrical and fresh water supplies for the embarkation area.
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419
This 10 man team will conduct salvage operations of any merchant or US Navy vessels in the port of Bremerhaven or the surrounding area. They will also repair any ships that remain of the US Navy’s Six Fleet that can make to Bremerhaven port. This unit will also conduct a survey of the surrounding area for any ships that can repaired for use by the task force
Naval Coastal Warfare Group
This 45 man will provide water side port security to the task force while it is in the port of Bremerhaven, since the navy was short of personnel some US Coast Guard personnel have been added to this unit
Navy Shore Party
This small group of sailors and marines which support the Navy and Marine units with a passenger and cargo ferry service. Their job is ferry the Army’s men and equipment to task force’s ships
Navy Assault Unit One
This is a small Navy Seal and Marine Force Recon Unit that was put together to take Bremerhaven by force if necessary. The unit has 100 men in five platoons of 20 with 6 RIB crews. They will also provide the security element for Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419 survey and recovery missions
Marine Units
2nd FAST Company
MARFORLANT is assigned the 2nd FAST Company to TF 34 for force protection of the task force during embarkation operations at Bremerhaven. The company deployed five platoons commanded by, Major O’Connor, and musters 120 Marines in four platoons. Upon landing they will absorbed the Bremerhaven Naval Provisional Security Battalion
US Army Elements
Composite Engineering Group
This US Army unit was put together at the last minute to destroy any equipment that couldn’t be taken with Task Force 34, and to provide addition support to NMCB-23 it has 60 men mostly from ANG units
22nd Special Forces Group
This recently form unit is made up of 20 recalled former Special Forces operators who mission to find out what happen and recover (if possible) Operation Reset
US Airforce Units
Technical Salvage Team
This 20 man team is being sent to Europe to find and salvage any remain aircraft parts, airframes and air munitions for shipment back to US
Other Units
Recon Team 9
This CIA backed team will land under the cover of operation Omega and conduct long range patrol to gather intelligence on Europe and into Russian if possible, there extraction will done the USS Corpus Christi at a later date
Remains of the US 6th Fleet
Navy Ships
USS La Salle (AGF-3) Raleigh-Class Amphibious Transport Dock/Command Ship
USS Vella Gulf (CG 72) Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Ramage (DDG 61) Arleigh Burke-Class Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Gladiator (MCM-11) Avenger Class Minesweeper
USS Butte (AE 27) Kilauea-Class Ammunition Ship
Naval Air Units
Fleet Logistics Support Squadron Four Zero [VRC-40] "Rawhides" 1 C-2A "Greyhound" (disassembled and being transported in the USS Butte)
Marine Units
8th US Marine Regiment
Other Navy Units
USS Comfort (T-AH 20) Hospital Ship
Sent to the European Theatre to provide troops with additional medical assets, docked in Spain for most of war this ship is loaded with about 1,000 wounded servicemen, 350 Navy personnel from various US Navy units and the ships crew of 1200, the ship is also the six surviving members of Seal Team Two
Other Units in the Mediterranean
173rd US Airborne Brigade
This unit was part of NATO’s Operation Carthaginian which successfully stopped Italy from interfering with naval operations in the Mediterranean the unit is about 3,000 all ranks
Composite Airforce Unit
250 all ranks is all that remains of the Airforce in the Mediterranean mostly ground crew and a few pilots
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Targan 04-22-2008, 11:43 PM How is the USS City of Corpus Christi involved?
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thefusilier 04-23-2008, 11:11 AM Wasn't the idea behind this, that the transports were the remnants of the German Merchant fleet?
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Canadian Army 04-23-2008, 02:42 PM Nice work, bro. Have fun in Wainwright :tank:
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Matt Wiser 04-23-2008, 06:08 PM Nice job, but you might want to check out the stuff I did a while back where the surviving carriers was mentioned; there are still two carriers in European waters, one in Norway: USS America (CV-66) with CVW-1, and one in Portsmouth, England: USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) with CVW-8. America's not going anywhere for a while-she's out of fuel, as are her escorts, and it's taking time to accumulate the stocks needed to get the carrier home from Norweigan waters. The "Stick" (Theodore Roosevelt) is in England and she's waiting on the Brits to finish assembling the new reactor cores for her two reactors. Once that's done, Carrier Group 8 (Roosevelt and her escorts) will go home. Both carrier groups will return home sometime in 2001.
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rcaf_777 04-23-2008, 07:26 PM Wasn't the idea behind this, that the transports were the remnants of the German Merchant fleet?
I thought about this but then I saw how much shipping is avaible world wide, then I found out about the Maritime Administration, National Defense Reserve Fleet and the Ready Reserve Force a thought would all thses ships really have been sunk, No then I saw what David Bober did and thought about some more stuff to add to make the book I making have more playable options
I added the Corpus Christi cuz it is the only submarine left and the Task force would need a scout/hunter for it
Matt I have not seen anything on surviving carriers so if you could post it would be nice, and once thank you my brother Canadian Army, I post some pics on here when I return form the feild
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dvyws 08-25-2008, 04:51 PM Sorry to sound negative, but what are you going to do with all those Bulk Carriers you've listed? Having done a few trips on them, I can tell you that they are basically a line of huge boxes, with an engine at the back end and a pointy bit at the front. If you are lucky, some of them will have cranes, but most won't.
You aren't going to get many troops in them, and stuff all equipment, unless they are extensively refitted to fit tween decks to give them a reasonable deck space, and that is a major dockyard effort for each vessel. To be honest, almost any other kind of ship would be more useful (except possibly tankers). My opinion would be to go with RoRos, cruise ships or ferries where possible, then general cargo boats, and not really bother with any other civilian ships. But bulk carriers will just be a waste of valuable fuel (unless you are planning to shift some, well, BULK cargos, like grain, or cement?). Or car carriers. Car carriers would be good (LOTS of deck space), and there were, and are, lots of them around.
Have a look at what else was floating around the oceans, particularly from those nations you wouldn't think of as seafaring ones, and where they where likely to be (for example the Saudis had (and still have) a reasonable size fleet of large RoRos, which used to run from the East coast of the US to the Middle East (via the Med), then out to the Far East (Korea, Japan, Taiwan & Singapore), back to the Middle East, then on to the US again. So two or three of them might be at your disposal (and if I recall correctly, they would do between 20-25 knots depending on the actual class (there were two).
And what about the large, fast container vessels that were regularly crossing the Atlantic in 2000, such as the SeaTrain ships? There were a LOT of them, so a fair number of them are likely to have survived, and you have the added option of semi-militarising them, for example like the Atlantic Conveyor in the Falklands, or using other container based weapons systems - I have vague memories of seeing various proposals for producing auxiliary warships, carrying all sorts of weapons.
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Hangfire7 08-25-2008, 10:27 PM A solution to bulk container ships:
Load them with conext and shipping containers. I bet you could stack a good number of them inside.
I have also contemplated using such ships. Simple make a wooden deakcs within. A framework of steel supports running across the width of the vessel, then sheets of thick plywood get fastened atop of them, and having 4X4s or other beams as vertical supports could work in a pinch.
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Mohoender 08-25-2008, 11:01 PM One of you was talking about stuffing troops and equipment in bulk carriers being difficult. Were not these troops being shipped back home supposed to left most of their equipment behind? Wasn't this operation supposed to be something like the British evacuation at Dunkerque (bombing excepted and with somewhat bigger ships)?
I expected nobody to really take care of that equipment thing and, therefore, I thought that cranes wouldn't be that much of an issue. Moreover, I also thought that you would not have so many big ship, I'm surprised you didn't include large fishing boats and may be some yachts (the type you can see in Maine). In my understanding, the US Navy assembled what it could for the military vessels and whatever it found in term of civilian ships. I would also imagine a large number of troops to be packed on the USN ships.
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Targan 08-25-2008, 11:50 PM I added the Corpus Christi cuz it is the only submarine left and the Task force would need a scout/hunter for itSo in your timeline the Last Sub trio of modules never happens, or happens six months earlier?
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GOF 08-26-2008, 04:07 AM Something that I've never seen mentio9ned in the past is livestock ships
These things are most often converts from freighters, car carriers or RO/RO ships. Nobodty seems to make them from brand new.
Sure they wont be pretty and some might still stink of sheep, cows, pigs or what other animal they transported but they generally have much more water storage and have plenty water stations across all the animal decks (along with the feed stations) and methods for getting rid of the animal wastes.
They come in all shapes an sizes as you'd expect from a bunch of conversions and would sure make a real mixed up looking fleet if you assembled just livestock ships by themselves let alone with other types.
in the case of converted car carriers or RO/ROs, all you'd have to do is rip out the pens to clear the deckspace if you wanted to carry larger stuff - lot easier than building new decks for a bulk cargo carrier
an while I think of it, what about the NS Savannah? Nuclear powered cargo/passenger ship. it was still around in the early 90s as a museum ship somewhere
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dvyws 08-26-2008, 08:21 AM A couple of notes on the comments regarding bulk carriers (I don't have a bee in my bonnet here, it's just something I actually know something about, for a change!).
Load them with conext and shipping containers. I bet you could stack a good number of them inside.
You could. But, either you have to find a way of securing them (and you are talking about towers of containers 5 or 6 high inside the hatch, bearing in mind that the North Atlantic gets rough at times, so you are going to need cell guides - i.e. the dockyard job I was talking about initially - and why bother, when there are container ships already around?), or you bung the boxes in so tight that they can't move - but thenn the doors won't open, so any troops inside are stuck there until unloaded - I suppose that you might get a few survivors, but to be honest I wouldn't bank on it... Comne to think about it, that is going to be a problem with dedicated container ships, too, the containers aren't accessible at sea.
I have also contemplated using such ships. wooden deakcs within. A framework of steel supports running across the width of the vessel, then sheets of thick plywood get fastened atop of them, and having 4X4s or other beams as vertical supports could work in a pinch.
As long as I don't have tp go into the hold when the ship's at sea (or in port, either, come to think of it!). I know people are a relatively light load per unit area on the decks,so the tween decks wouldn't need to be built to the normal industry specs, but it is going to be a LOT of dockyard work again - it isn't something ships crew could just knock up on the fly. So, again, why not use a suitable type of ship in the first place?
One of you was talking about stuffing troops and equipment in bulk carriers being difficult. Were not these troops being shipped back home supposed to left most of their equipment behind? Wasn't this operation supposed to be something like the British evacuation at Dunkerque (bombing excepted and with somewhat bigger ships)?
Well, yes, you could "stuff" a LOT of troops in a bulk carrier, if you just open the hatch and pour them in. The problem is deck space (and bulk carriers are designed to have the maximum volume of hold for the minimum deck space) once you have a layer of troops on the deck, where do the restgo - the only place is on top of the layer below. Fine for bags of cement, not so good for people...
I think the problem is that I'm not explaining myself very well - trouble is, I know what I'm trying to describe, but I'm not very good at putting the message across. How about, think about a gymnasium, and how many people you can get in there. The limiting factor is the floor space, not how high the walls are. And bulk carriers are designed to maximise volume while minimising floor space. Does that help?
I expected nobody to really take care of that equipment thing and, therefore, I thought that cranes wouldn't be that much of an issue. Moreover, I also thought that you would not have so many big ship, I'm surprised you didn't include large fishing boats and may be some yachts (the type you can see in Maine). In my understanding, the US Navy assembled what it could for the military vessels and whatever it found in term of civilian ships. I would also imagine a large number of troops to be packed on the USN ships.
Yeah, I understood that most of the big stuff was being left behind, but thee wil probably be a fair bit of stuff that the guys (or their leaders) want to keep. Not to mention food and water. All that will need to be loaded somehow. It won't be impossible without cranes or derricks, but they will make life a hell of a lot easier.
As for yachts and fishing boats - well, rather you than me. Firstly, you need to find ones with the range to cross the Atlantic without refuelling (I refuse to point blank even think about trying to RAS a small boat in the North Atlantic in anything other than a flat calm ( which it usually isn't - it can get bloody ROUGH out there, guys!). How are they going to keep up with the convoy? Most merchant ships will happily do a good 15 knots or so, and most yachts and fishing boats, err, won't. Plus, there is the fuel/benefit ratio - you couod send one large ship across the pond ffor all the fuel the little guys will be using, and you will be able to bring a LOT more troops home in it. It's only about 20 miles across the channel, remember, so Dunkirk only goes so far as an analogy.
Something that I've never seen mentioned in the past is livestock ships
Actually, yes, very practical. It would work. You wouldn't get me on one - but then I'm not a survivor of a nuclear war trying to get home! Only problem I can see is most of them run in and out of the Persian Gulf, and the ones I came across were running from Australia and New Zealand. I would think that there would be equivalents from South merica,tho? Might be difficult to have them where you need them, otherwise, go for it! Incidentally, one of the weirdest ships I ever came across was a combination cruise ship and sheep carrier - forward end was livestock, after end was tourists. (think about prevailing winds on a ship - normally from ahead, due to its speed). The thing they don't tell you about livestock carriers is that they STINK! Must have been a fun cruise for the tourists, as they wiouldn't dare open a door or port, much less go out on deck!
Sorry to bang on about this stuff, but it caught my interest (always dangerous!!)
David
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 08:51 AM About range, I agree for the yachts (I thought about it too late). However, many fishing ships won't have the problem. Portuguese ships, for example, are fishing codfish off the canadian coast and up to the artic and then back to Portugal. Don't forget that a fishing campain can last for several month and I was not thinking about the coastal types. Actually, that idea came from the numerous ones that had been used during WWII by the allies and the current ones are much more powerful. Moreover to get a ride home you won't care about the smell.
About, the equipment, outside of what a man can hold, I don't think the commanders will have anything to say. It will simply depends on what the HQ is willing or capable to make.
About the cranes, I agree that it makes life easier, but that happens at a time when nobody really cares about making life easier. The only point is about getting a ride home under some kind of protection.
Agree that the food issue is an important one but you can ration it and I would expect that espect of things to have been carefully planned. Still, you are right, the cruise back home will be something between 2 or 3 weeks. (I forgot when this was suppose to happen as my players never had to do this trip).
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 09:56 AM It also caught my interest and I looked a little deeper into this. I came up with some more ideas if you don't mind.
I never realized it (out of pure ignorance) but Bremerhaven was a very good choice for such operation. It is the 6th container port of Europe and potentially gets a lot of working gears to achieve such operation. Nevertheless, I would expect this harbour to be very highly damaged as is Hambourg and as would be Wilhelmshaven (the main oil terminal and the main naval base in Germany).
As a result, I expect the US Navy to load troops from small boats and from whatever they can (much like the British at Dunkerque). Most of the port installations would certainly be destroyed. Actually, I just looked at the "Going Home" module and it states exactly that "strict adherence to the baggage allowance would be enforced". Moreover, US agreed to leave their heavy equipment for the German Army to take. Don't do it and you can expect some kind of resitance on the German side and I'm not sure that a fight with the Bundeswehr will help greatly.
Nevertheless, If you get a working harbour, I would think that everyone is right about Bulk Carriers. However, as you can expect to have a huge amount of containers around, Container Ships would be a wiser choice. Someone also talked about some kind of liners and I agree, especially as you have some cruising in the Carribeans.
If I remember well the amount of ship is bearely enough and I still think long range fishing ship can be an option (Ok, I know I'm insisting on this) :ices_ange . The first thing to stop in case of a war is long range fishing. You cannot protect them and these ships are easy prey. Then, the ships will be standing in ports for some times and long range fishermen are very brave sailors (they would be more than well suited for such operation) and they will certainly be willing to go as these guys use sail when everyone refuses to do it.
A last question then. Don't you have at least one Icebreaker in this fleet as it is supposed to leave on November 15? That could come from the canadian fleet and it might be useful if you travel through the Iceland route (The channel might be risky and it could be wise to plan for a harsh and early winter). Times have been known in the past where the North Sea Coast was locked in ice and Twilight 2000, if I recall, is not especially a time of global warming.
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Hangfire7 08-26-2008, 01:10 PM Ah so many funny things said, loved the half cruise ship half sheep ship, the poor bastages.
As for my idea of an interior conversion of a bulk carrier. It is a big job for sure, but would it require shipyard work? An interer crane, a few dozen guys with welding skill and the steel to make the frame work, which I suggested could be gotten from railroad rails. I figure it would take about a month. And keep in mind you have a few divisions of men who want to get home after spending the last four or five years in hell. That is propper motivation.
As for the shipping containers, two ways of doing it. Weld them in place, add supports again from railroad rails. Leaving and making a lader well and platform at both ends using steel shipboard ladderwells <more like stairs> and gratings like on many enginerooms. This allows movement and air. These can be at both ends of the containers, or having two containers or even three end to end. Another methods is to just stack the containers then cut through every fourth countainer and build a stairwell down as well as vehnilaton ports, and go all the way down. Then turn the containers into living quarters and other facilities.
All of it is major work for sure but it can be done without a dockyard to refit and it all can be done with minimal materials and in short order.
As for the task forces sailing in Novermber YIKES!! Who was the brainiac who came up with a winter crossing of the atlantic? ARGH!!!
Also, here is another idea, what about the use of barges towed by some of the more able ships?
As for sailing across the Atlantic, if it were my, I'd go via a larger sailboat in the Spring. I would think, cross from the mainland Europe to England and Ireland, then depending on the charts, sail West or otherwise follow Europe, around Spain and then to Africa where the distance is the shortest and cross to S. America where I would then work my way up the to N. America. Once in the Caribean you have dozens of smaller islands where the war will have not affected as badly as Europe of the United States, many of the islands are poor and thus never had to rely on modern technology on the scale that Europe and the United States does.
Of course the shortest route would be to do the GIUK in reverse working your way to Nova Scotia and then working your way South. However, the down side here is the chances of Ice and storms, not something I would want to handle in a modern sailboat of the size and class i have in mind.
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 02:00 PM For the half cruise, half sheep ship, they might not have to complain that much, at least they might be warm if they fill the sheep part with cattle.
For the November Cruise, that should be some high ranking admiral. That's also why I didn't suggest "Fruit Ships" and there must be some around as they usualy carried Bananas out of South America and Orange out of Florida. The problem is that when crossing the Atlantic in winter with a refrigerated ship you end up with dead meat or Human Frosen Sticks (Crazed Ben&Jerrys might have planed for it after all).
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dvyws 08-26-2008, 04:52 PM Yeah, the Atlantic on November - one of my favourite trips, even taking the southern route (Gibraltar to the Bahamas). Thinking about it, you actually won't need much in the way of rations for the troops - the poor guys won't feel much like eating for most of the trip. And don't laugh - real seasickness ain't funny (been there, got the very heavily stained T shirt!). Worse still for anyone on a tug or a fishing boat - and being rough, tough, immune (through long practice) types,the crews aren't going to be overly sympathetic...
The bulk carrier conversions would work, but the point I was trying to make was, would you want to allocate all that resource, when better alternatives are available? Although, given the mind set that decided on the operation in November, I can see a consistent level of decision making, here...
The fishing boats would work, too, but either you organise a separate convoy for them, or you send them across unescorted (I suspect the crews would actually prefer that, but tryingto co-ordinate them would drive the admirals crazy very quickly). But you are not going to get too many bodies on each boat. The big advantage is that they won't need too much functionality in the ports, just a stretch of usable quay.
Containers - it would probably be best to just use alternate rows, that would solve the access issues (or at least provide space for the ladders). Bear in mind that above decks all the containers need to be loaded with access doors facing aft (one trip will show you why!). I would suggest doing the box loading before sending them to Germany, cos I don't think too much of the port infrastructure will be working, and fuel for what is left (straddle carriers, cranes, etc) is likely to be short.
Barges - hmm, iffy in November (and slow - two convoys is beginning to look good!). Technically feasible, probably, but can I go on a ship, please?
One thought - the United States was in Norfolk in the 80s/90s at Norfolk (the civilian port). Not sure if she would still be afloat at this point, but if so, she was designed as a strategic troop carrying asset, following the success of converted liners as troopships in WW11 - she would increase the capacity of the fleet immensely. And she was FAST - she could be sent across with just a minimal escort (just don't zigzag - I'm thinking Queen Mary & HMS Curacao - ouch!), and make a couple of trips while everyone else made judt the one. Or she could go back for stragglers later?
Or you could just ask the Brits nicely, and borrow Canberra &/or QE2? If either survived, they would probably have been long since converted into troopships.
Hope I haven't come across as too negative, ion this thread. I'mnot trying to spoil anyones hard work, but it caught my interest, and I wanted to see how it could be made to work in practice. Of course, it doesn't help that I hsaven't read Going home....
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chico20854 08-26-2008, 05:55 PM This is an Orbat I have come up with for a Campaign book I am trying to write some material I got from Task Force 34 by David Bober, others I have taken from the GDW publication Going Home, just looking for some feed back, I have assumed that the remains of the Six Fleet in Med would link up with the Task Force for the journey home. So let me know what you guys think
Task Force 34
Background
The following vessels comprised part of Task Force 34 (TF 34), the US Navy’s task force that is tasked to repatriated American troops from Europe to the USA.
USN Elements
USS John Hancock (DD-981) Spruance-Class Destroyer (Flagship)
USS Leahy (CG 16) Converted Leahy Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Wainwright (CG-28), Belknap Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Tattnall (DDG-19), Charles F. Adams Class, Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Talbot (FFG-4), Brooke Class, Frigate
USS Chief (MCM-14), Avenger Class, Mine Countermeasures Ship
USS Corpus Christi, (SNN 705) Los Angles Class, Attack Submarine
USS Edson (DD-946) Forrest Sherman Class Destroyer
USCG Elements
USCGC Tamaroa (WAT/WMEC-166) Coast Guard Cutter
USNS Elements
USS Wichita (AOR-1), Wichita Class, Replenishment Oilier
SS Flickertail State (T-ACS-5), Keystone State Class, Crane Ship
MV Cape Douglas (T-AKR-5052), Cape D Class, Ro-Ro Ship
USS Powhatan (T-ATF-166), Fleet Ocean Tug
USS Grapple (ARS-53), Safeguard Class Salvage Ship
USS Newport (LST 1179), Landing Ship Tank
National Defence Reserve Fleet:
SS American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Barnard Victory, Victory Ship
SS Hattiesburg Victory, Victory Ship
SS Earlham Victory, Victory Ship
SS Occidental Victory, Victory Ship
SS Pan American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Queens Victory, Victory Ship
SS Red Oak Victory, Victory Ship
SS Rider Victory, Victory Ship
SS Winthrop Victory, Victory Ship
Merchant Navy Elements
Vessels from the US
All of these vessels were pressed into service during the beginning of the Twilight war and this represents the last of the western US Shipping assets, most of these ships are commanded and manned by USN personnel most of them are retires recalled to duty.
Aetos Bahamas Flag Bulk Carrier
Cunard Princess Bahamas Flag Cruise Ship
ASL Cygnus Bahamas Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Petrobulk Progress Bahamas Flag Tanker
Stena Searider Bermuda Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Plyos Honduras Flag Bulk Carrier
Topaz Honduras Flag Tug
Amer Asha Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Expedient Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Prince Shaul Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Unselva Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Yannis II Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Hual Margarita Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santos Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santania Panama Flag Tug
Falcon St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Velenje St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Ville Du Harve St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Non Sea-Going Units
Task Force 34 Headquarters Staff
This is main headquarters of the Task Force and Commanded by Rear Admiral Craig Sheeley, he has staff of 50 officers and enlisted sailors, it quartered aboard the USS Leahy
Navy Mobile Construction Battalion 23
COMSCLANT has assigned the Seabees of NMCB 23 to support quayside and engineering operations at Bremerhaven during the embarkation of US personnel. The battalion has an H&S Company and five Seabee companies 90 men in total. The Seabees are to repair damaged port facilities and established temporary electrical and fresh water supplies for the embarkation area.
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419
This 10 man team will conduct salvage operations of any merchant or US Navy vessels in the port of Bremerhaven or the surrounding area. They will also repair any ships that remain of the US Navy’s Six Fleet that can make to Bremerhaven port. This unit will also conduct a survey of the surrounding area for any ships that can repaired for use by the task force
Naval Coastal Warfare Group
This 45 man will provide water side port security to the task force while it is in the port of Bremerhaven, since the navy was short of personnel some US Coast Guard personnel have been added to this unit
Navy Shore Party
This small group of sailors and marines which support the Navy and Marine units with a passenger and cargo ferry service. Their job is ferry the Army’s men and equipment to task force’s ships
Navy Assault Unit One
This is a small Navy Seal and Marine Force Recon Unit that was put together to take Bremerhaven by force if necessary. The unit has 100 men in five platoons of 20 with 6 RIB crews. They will also provide the security element for Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419 survey and recovery missions
Marine Units
2nd FAST Company
MARFORLANT is assigned the 2nd FAST Company to TF 34 for force protection of the task force during embarkation operations at Bremerhaven. The company deployed five platoons commanded by, Major O’Connor, and musters 120 Marines in four platoons. Upon landing they will absorbed the Bremerhaven Naval Provisional Security Battalion
US Army Elements
Composite Engineering Group
This US Army unit was put together at the last minute to destroy any equipment that couldn’t be taken with Task Force 34, and to provide addition support to NMCB-23 it has 60 men mostly from ANG units
22nd Special Forces Group
This recently form unit is made up of 20 recalled former Special Forces operators who mission to find out what happen and recover (if possible) Operation Reset
US Airforce Units
Technical Salvage Team
This 20 man team is being sent to Europe to find and salvage any remain aircraft parts, airframes and air munitions for shipment back to US
Other Units
Recon Team 9
This CIA backed team will land under the cover of operation Omega and conduct long range patrol to gather intelligence on Europe and into Russian if possible, there extraction will done the USS Corpus Christi at a later date
Remains of the US 6th Fleet
Navy Ships
USS La Salle (AGF-3) Raleigh-Class Amphibious Transport Dock/Command Ship
USS Vella Gulf (CG 72) Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Ramage (DDG 61) Arleigh Burke-Class Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Gladiator (MCM-11) Avenger Class Minesweeper
USS Butte (AE 27) Kilauea-Class Ammunition Ship
Naval Air Units
Fleet Logistics Support Squadron Four Zero [VRC-40] "Rawhides" 1 C-2A "Greyhound" (disassembled and being transported in the USS Butte)
Marine Units
8th US Marine Regiment
Other Navy Units
USS Comfort (T-AH 20) Hospital Ship
Sent to the European Theatre to provide troops with additional medical assets, docked in Spain for most of war this ship is loaded with about 1,000 wounded servicemen, 350 Navy personnel from various US Navy units and the ships crew of 1200, the ship is also the six surviving members of Seal Team Two
Other Units in the Mediterranean
173rd US Airborne Brigade
This unit was part of NATO’s Operation Carthaginian which successfully stopped Italy from interfering with naval operations in the Mediterranean the unit is about 3,000 all ranks
Composite Airforce Unit
250 all ranks is all that remains of the Airforce in the Mediterranean mostly ground crew and a few pilots
We in DC are pretty close to having our comprehensive US Navy ship list (and dispositions) complete. Law & I were working on it over the weekend. If you can wait a few weeks I should have a summary out on my website. A few things I can mention:
173rd Airborne, according to a post from Frank Frey (one of the GDW writers) about 2 years ago, was deployed to Mombassa, Kenya on COIN duties. We in DC are working on the assumption it is still there (and have a good reason why).
Likewise, we had 6th Fleet mostly declare for Civgov, as many of their ships are in Jugoslav ports and the Army units in Jugoslavia are Civgov assets. I also have other plans for them (and a deeper explanation for Operation Omega).
Matt Wiser has seen the navy side, and we're working to coordinate our stuff. For US carriers in the Atlantic, we currently have Enterprise in Belfast with damage but still afloat & with working reactors, Eisenhower is in Iceland, and Washington is in Portsmouth. JFK is in Jugoslavia, declared for Civgov. We've got to call Matt and coordinate ship names, we're more concerned with class than individual ship at this point.
As far as the subs go, we're having a hard time explaining the loss of 107 of the 108 attack subs the USN can put to sea (not to mention another 42 boomers). Even at the end of WWII the German and Japanese sub forces didn't sustain that sort of loss rates. So if you'd like to consider some other sub than Corpus Christi send me a PM I'll give you what we have so far for ship fates. We had SSN-724, USS Louisville, participating in TF 34.
We imagined the escort force would be a little smaller. Going Home mentions that the John Hancock is the flagship - to me that implies that TF 34 had no cruisers, as no self-respecting admiral is going to plant his flagship on a destroyer when he can use a cruiser. In addition, there isn't much of a threat that requires a large escort force - Soviet Backfires, commerce raiders and nuclear subs have more than likely ceased serious operations and even one destroyer is more than enough to scare away year-2000 pirates.
As for the merchant ships to use, I'm ambivalent. I agree that there are a huge number of a wide variety of merchant ships still afloat and at least somewhat serviceable, so Going Home's portrayal of the TF 34 fleet as a hodgepodge of German rivergoing and coastal ships doesn't make too much sense to me. Nonetheless, we're going to run with it - smaller ships require less harbor facilities, and we're trying not to overturn too much canon. The fleet you have is much larger than you need - the 10 Victory ships and the escorts would be enough to move the troops (without equipment) in the rough conditions described in Going Home.
NS Savannah was afloat but decomissioned at the time. The Maritime Administration (where I work) didn't have any plans to bring her back into service in wartime - the technology was late 1950s, finding trained crew would have been a challenge, the cargo capacity was low considering the resources needed to operate her, and the disastrous consequences of her loss precluded her reactivation.
So I beg your patience while I write up what we've come up with. Deacon has had a sneak peek and liked it! It's just too incomplete to put up yet. Jason also has something in the hopper that will get you all thinking! And also I'd like to echo Jesse in that I don't mean to be critical of your work, just trying to keep more continuity between our various efforts to flesh out canon.
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Law0369 08-26-2008, 06:50 PM Too second dan I have donr alot of work on the united states Marines and there activities during the war I have completed the order of battle and still have the unit historys to write up . If you can all just wait ;i think you will be pleasantly surprised with our work here trying to flesh out cannon. IF anyone has any last miniute ideas on the marines please im me so we can talk thanks.
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Hangfire7 08-26-2008, 06:50 PM Yeah, the Atlantic on November - Hope I haven't come across as too negative, ion this thread. I'mnot trying to spoil anyones hard work, but it caught my interest, and I wanted to see how it could be made to work in practice. Of course, it doesn't help that I hsaven't read Going home....
snip:
No offense taken on my part. 1st as for seasick, back in the day no problem, heck I enjoyed the rocking and such. today, well I went below into the cabin of our boat while at sea and well I started feeling queezy and had to get some fresh air. It pissed me off as I had never been seasick before in my life. Does this mean I am getting old? So, it can strike anyone, anytime.
As for my ideas, I was just brainstorming thinking the best way to use what vessels were available. IE make do with what you got.
And yeah the November crossing! ARGH!!! However, how many troops would be left in Europe at this point? I wonder, next time I get my materials out of storage I will add up the numbers in the vehicle guides order of battle.
But, really if you were evacing, how many aircraft carrier or if one or two of the battleships were online, those would I am sure have enough space. Heck I remember on the Belueawood we woke up one morning and had army dogies lying in the corridors and on the flight deck. Damn sailors can't keep anything clean, leaving perfectly good armymen laying all over the ship :)
But if you opened most of the spaces and crammed men wherever, I think you could probably need just a handful of vessels. I took a freind who visitedf from Seattle to the USS Midway last week, and if you turned the hangar deck into a barracks it wouldn't be that hard. Put down half a dozen connex boxes along the center of the hangar deck and install heavy planking atop and then install bunks on both levels 4 bunks tall and you could fit in my view more than a full strength regiment, probably even two. And a modern carrier? give me a schematic and I bet I could cram a division ;) And I would have all of the men smilling, just give them the propper motivation, YOU ARE GOING HOME JUST REMEMBER THAT, SO SUCK IT UP!
Remember, the QE2 does the Atlantic crossing in 3 to 4 days, and it normaly has a 6 hour turnaround, so it could be done.
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 10:59 PM In this case I definitely think the crossing will be something between 2 or 3 weeks. You are forming a convoy and the average speed for it would be something like 10 or 15 knots (most ship not going at there top speed). Nothing in common with the 30 knots of a liner. Moreover, the trip might be a little longer as some searoute can be difficult to use.
As in every war convoy, if one ship doesn't make it, it will be left behind and that can be interesting in term of game play. Twilight, assume that they all made it home nice and safe, I really cannot sea why.
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Targan 08-27-2008, 12:29 AM As for the task forces sailing in Novermber YIKES!! Who was the brainiac who came up with a winter crossing of the atlantic? ARGH!!!I took this into account when my campaign reached the Going Home stage. In Major Po's group his 2IC was a USN SEAL Lt Cmdr who had previously been a meteorology specialist with fleet ops experience so he ended up in command of the RO-RO ship the PC party was assigned to. We RP'd out the whole voyage and there were some major storms during the crossing. The ship hit rocks as the fleet was sailing north of Scotland and that damaged the bow doors of the RO-RO. Latter in an even more severe storm the forward doors started to leak severely and eventually the pumps couldn't keep up and the ships lower decks started to flood. She eventually capsized but before that happened some of the soldiers aboard panicked and mutinied. Gunny Lamont, the ridiculously hard core USMC NCO based on Gunny Highway in "Heartbreak Ridge" led a group which put down the mutiny but was caught deep below decks when the ship capsized. Major Po's 2IC, the USN SEAL who was a PC did a truly heroic dive on the capsized vessel towing a spare diving suit and air tanks and got Lamont out. Very inspiring stuff it was and there were some epic gaming sessions involved.
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Hangfire7 08-27-2008, 01:36 AM I took this into account when my campaign reached the Going Home stage. In Major Po's group his 2IC was a USN SEAL Lt Cmdr who had previously been a meteorology specialist with fleet ops experience so he ended up in command of the RO-RO ship the PC party was assigned to. We RP'd out the whole voyage and there were some major storms during the crossing. The ship hit rocks as the fleet was sailing north of Scotland and that damaged the bow doors of the RO-RO. Latter in an even more severe storm the forward doors started to leak severely and eventually the pumps couldn't keep up and the ships lower decks started to flood. She eventually capsized but before that happened some of the soldiers aboard panicked and mutinied. Gunny Lamont, the ridiculously hard core USMC NCO based on Gunny Highway in "Heartbreak Ridge" led a group which put down the mutiny but was caught deep below decks when the ship capsized. Major Po's 2IC, the USN SEAL who was a PC did a truly heroic dive on the capsized vessel towing a spare diving suit and air tanks and got Lamont out. Very inspiring stuff it was and there were some epic gaming sessions involved.
Nice, a little over dramatic but cool. Um, where did he grab the dive suite and scuba tanks from? I have half a dozen issues with that scenario off the top of my head, but no need for me to be anal. It was a good storey though. There is just one think I really want to ask, what on earth made the Gunny go below when the ship was ready to turn turtle?
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Targan 08-27-2008, 01:44 AM Nice, a little over dramatic but cool. Um, where did he grab the dive suite and scuba tanks from? I have half a dozen issues with that scenario off the top of my head, but no need for me to be anal. It was a good storey though. There is just one think I really want to ask, what on earth made the Gunny go below when the ship was ready to turn turtle?All very good questions. It would take me hours to describe all of the background. Among the gear the PC party had brought onto the ship was a whole bunch of specialised spec ops equipment including a bunch of different kinds of diving gear. The party (especially Major Po) had a quite special relationship with some very senior US officers by the time of Going Home. Bear in mind that Major Po and his group had virtually ended the Soviet campaign in Poland by backpack nuking WarPac Reserve front HQ at Lublin so they were being treated as heroes in Bremerhaven. Their equipment allocation was quite large.
The Gunny was below decks with others of Po's unit fighting it out with the mutineers for several hours and it didn't become apparent that the ship was going to capsize until a short time before it happened. Shortly before the capsize Gunny had sent Po's girlfriend back upstairs with a sitrep so Po knew roughly where Gunny was when the ship keeled over.
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Task Force 34
Background
The following vessels comprised part of Task Force 34 (TF 34), the US Navy’s task force that is tasked to repatriated American troops from Europe to the USA.
USN Elements
USS John Hancock (DD-981) Spruance-Class Destroyer (Flagship)
USS Leahy (CG 16) Converted Leahy Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Wainwright (CG-28), Belknap Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Tattnall (DDG-19), Charles F. Adams Class, Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Talbot (FFG-4), Brooke Class, Frigate
USS Chief (MCM-14), Avenger Class, Mine Countermeasures Ship
USS Corpus Christi, (SNN 705) Los Angles Class, Attack Submarine
USS Edson (DD-946) Forrest Sherman Class Destroyer
USCG Elements
USCGC Tamaroa (WAT/WMEC-166) Coast Guard Cutter
USNS Elements
USS Wichita (AOR-1), Wichita Class, Replenishment Oilier
SS Flickertail State (T-ACS-5), Keystone State Class, Crane Ship
MV Cape Douglas (T-AKR-5052), Cape D Class, Ro-Ro Ship
USS Powhatan (T-ATF-166), Fleet Ocean Tug
USS Grapple (ARS-53), Safeguard Class Salvage Ship
USS Newport (LST 1179), Landing Ship Tank
National Defence Reserve Fleet:
SS American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Barnard Victory, Victory Ship
SS Hattiesburg Victory, Victory Ship
SS Earlham Victory, Victory Ship
SS Occidental Victory, Victory Ship
SS Pan American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Queens Victory, Victory Ship
SS Red Oak Victory, Victory Ship
SS Rider Victory, Victory Ship
SS Winthrop Victory, Victory Ship
Merchant Navy Elements
Vessels from the US
All of these vessels were pressed into service during the beginning of the Twilight war and this represents the last of the western US Shipping assets, most of these ships are commanded and manned by USN personnel most of them are retires recalled to duty.
Aetos Bahamas Flag Bulk Carrier
Cunard Princess Bahamas Flag Cruise Ship
ASL Cygnus Bahamas Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Petrobulk Progress Bahamas Flag Tanker
Stena Searider Bermuda Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Plyos Honduras Flag Bulk Carrier
Topaz Honduras Flag Tug
Amer Asha Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Expedient Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Prince Shaul Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Unselva Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Yannis II Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Hual Margarita Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santos Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santania Panama Flag Tug
Falcon St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Velenje St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Ville Du Harve St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Non Sea-Going Units
Task Force 34 Headquarters Staff
This is main headquarters of the Task Force and Commanded by Rear Admiral Craig Sheeley, he has staff of 50 officers and enlisted sailors, it quartered aboard the USS Leahy
Navy Mobile Construction Battalion 23
COMSCLANT has assigned the Seabees of NMCB 23 to support quayside and engineering operations at Bremerhaven during the embarkation of US personnel. The battalion has an H&S Company and five Seabee companies 90 men in total. The Seabees are to repair damaged port facilities and established temporary electrical and fresh water supplies for the embarkation area.
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419
This 10 man team will conduct salvage operations of any merchant or US Navy vessels in the port of Bremerhaven or the surrounding area. They will also repair any ships that remain of the US Navy’s Six Fleet that can make to Bremerhaven port. This unit will also conduct a survey of the surrounding area for any ships that can repaired for use by the task force
Naval Coastal Warfare Group
This 45 man will provide water side port security to the task force while it is in the port of Bremerhaven, since the navy was short of personnel some US Coast Guard personnel have been added to this unit
Navy Shore Party
This small group of sailors and marines which support the Navy and Marine units with a passenger and cargo ferry service. Their job is ferry the Army’s men and equipment to task force’s ships
Navy Assault Unit One
This is a small Navy Seal and Marine Force Recon Unit that was put together to take Bremerhaven by force if necessary. The unit has 100 men in five platoons of 20 with 6 RIB crews. They will also provide the security element for Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419 survey and recovery missions
Marine Units
2nd FAST Company
MARFORLANT is assigned the 2nd FAST Company to TF 34 for force protection of the task force during embarkation operations at Bremerhaven. The company deployed five platoons commanded by, Major O’Connor, and musters 120 Marines in four platoons. Upon landing they will absorbed the Bremerhaven Naval Provisional Security Battalion
US Army Elements
Composite Engineering Group
This US Army unit was put together at the last minute to destroy any equipment that couldn’t be taken with Task Force 34, and to provide addition support to NMCB-23 it has 60 men mostly from ANG units
22nd Special Forces Group
This recently form unit is made up of 20 recalled former Special Forces operators who mission to find out what happen and recover (if possible) Operation Reset
US Airforce Units
Technical Salvage Team
This 20 man team is being sent to Europe to find and salvage any remain aircraft parts, airframes and air munitions for shipment back to US
Other Units
Recon Team 9
This CIA backed team will land under the cover of operation Omega and conduct long range patrol to gather intelligence on Europe and into Russian if possible, there extraction will done the USS Corpus Christi at a later date
Remains of the US 6th Fleet
Navy Ships
USS La Salle (AGF-3) Raleigh-Class Amphibious Transport Dock/Command Ship
USS Vella Gulf (CG 72) Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Ramage (DDG 61) Arleigh Burke-Class Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Gladiator (MCM-11) Avenger Class Minesweeper
USS Butte (AE 27) Kilauea-Class Ammunition Ship
Naval Air Units
Fleet Logistics Support Squadron Four Zero [VRC-40] "Rawhides" 1 C-2A "Greyhound" (disassembled and being transported in the USS Butte)
Marine Units
8th US Marine Regiment
Other Navy Units
USS Comfort (T-AH 20) Hospital Ship
Sent to the European Theatre to provide troops with additional medical assets, docked in Spain for most of war this ship is loaded with about 1,000 wounded servicemen, 350 Navy personnel from various US Navy units and the ships crew of 1200, the ship is also the six surviving members of Seal Team Two
Other Units in the Mediterranean
173rd US Airborne Brigade
This unit was part of NATO’s Operation Carthaginian which successfully stopped Italy from interfering with naval operations in the Mediterranean the unit is about 3,000 all ranks
Composite Airforce Unit
250 all ranks is all that remains of the Airforce in the Mediterranean mostly ground crew and a few pilots
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Targan 04-22-2008, 11:43 PM How is the USS City of Corpus Christi involved?
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thefusilier 04-23-2008, 11:11 AM Wasn't the idea behind this, that the transports were the remnants of the German Merchant fleet?
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Canadian Army 04-23-2008, 02:42 PM Nice work, bro. Have fun in Wainwright :tank:
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Matt Wiser 04-23-2008, 06:08 PM Nice job, but you might want to check out the stuff I did a while back where the surviving carriers was mentioned; there are still two carriers in European waters, one in Norway: USS America (CV-66) with CVW-1, and one in Portsmouth, England: USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) with CVW-8. America's not going anywhere for a while-she's out of fuel, as are her escorts, and it's taking time to accumulate the stocks needed to get the carrier home from Norweigan waters. The "Stick" (Theodore Roosevelt) is in England and she's waiting on the Brits to finish assembling the new reactor cores for her two reactors. Once that's done, Carrier Group 8 (Roosevelt and her escorts) will go home. Both carrier groups will return home sometime in 2001.
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rcaf_777 04-23-2008, 07:26 PM Wasn't the idea behind this, that the transports were the remnants of the German Merchant fleet?
I thought about this but then I saw how much shipping is avaible world wide, then I found out about the Maritime Administration, National Defense Reserve Fleet and the Ready Reserve Force a thought would all thses ships really have been sunk, No then I saw what David Bober did and thought about some more stuff to add to make the book I making have more playable options
I added the Corpus Christi cuz it is the only submarine left and the Task force would need a scout/hunter for it
Matt I have not seen anything on surviving carriers so if you could post it would be nice, and once thank you my brother Canadian Army, I post some pics on here when I return form the feild
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dvyws 08-25-2008, 04:51 PM Sorry to sound negative, but what are you going to do with all those Bulk Carriers you've listed? Having done a few trips on them, I can tell you that they are basically a line of huge boxes, with an engine at the back end and a pointy bit at the front. If you are lucky, some of them will have cranes, but most won't.
You aren't going to get many troops in them, and stuff all equipment, unless they are extensively refitted to fit tween decks to give them a reasonable deck space, and that is a major dockyard effort for each vessel. To be honest, almost any other kind of ship would be more useful (except possibly tankers). My opinion would be to go with RoRos, cruise ships or ferries where possible, then general cargo boats, and not really bother with any other civilian ships. But bulk carriers will just be a waste of valuable fuel (unless you are planning to shift some, well, BULK cargos, like grain, or cement?). Or car carriers. Car carriers would be good (LOTS of deck space), and there were, and are, lots of them around.
Have a look at what else was floating around the oceans, particularly from those nations you wouldn't think of as seafaring ones, and where they where likely to be (for example the Saudis had (and still have) a reasonable size fleet of large RoRos, which used to run from the East coast of the US to the Middle East (via the Med), then out to the Far East (Korea, Japan, Taiwan & Singapore), back to the Middle East, then on to the US again. So two or three of them might be at your disposal (and if I recall correctly, they would do between 20-25 knots depending on the actual class (there were two).
And what about the large, fast container vessels that were regularly crossing the Atlantic in 2000, such as the SeaTrain ships? There were a LOT of them, so a fair number of them are likely to have survived, and you have the added option of semi-militarising them, for example like the Atlantic Conveyor in the Falklands, or using other container based weapons systems - I have vague memories of seeing various proposals for producing auxiliary warships, carrying all sorts of weapons.
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Hangfire7 08-25-2008, 10:27 PM A solution to bulk container ships:
Load them with conext and shipping containers. I bet you could stack a good number of them inside.
I have also contemplated using such ships. Simple make a wooden deakcs within. A framework of steel supports running across the width of the vessel, then sheets of thick plywood get fastened atop of them, and having 4X4s or other beams as vertical supports could work in a pinch.
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Mohoender 08-25-2008, 11:01 PM One of you was talking about stuffing troops and equipment in bulk carriers being difficult. Were not these troops being shipped back home supposed to left most of their equipment behind? Wasn't this operation supposed to be something like the British evacuation at Dunkerque (bombing excepted and with somewhat bigger ships)?
I expected nobody to really take care of that equipment thing and, therefore, I thought that cranes wouldn't be that much of an issue. Moreover, I also thought that you would not have so many big ship, I'm surprised you didn't include large fishing boats and may be some yachts (the type you can see in Maine). In my understanding, the US Navy assembled what it could for the military vessels and whatever it found in term of civilian ships. I would also imagine a large number of troops to be packed on the USN ships.
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Targan 08-25-2008, 11:50 PM I added the Corpus Christi cuz it is the only submarine left and the Task force would need a scout/hunter for itSo in your timeline the Last Sub trio of modules never happens, or happens six months earlier?
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GOF 08-26-2008, 04:07 AM Something that I've never seen mentio9ned in the past is livestock ships
These things are most often converts from freighters, car carriers or RO/RO ships. Nobodty seems to make them from brand new.
Sure they wont be pretty and some might still stink of sheep, cows, pigs or what other animal they transported but they generally have much more water storage and have plenty water stations across all the animal decks (along with the feed stations) and methods for getting rid of the animal wastes.
They come in all shapes an sizes as you'd expect from a bunch of conversions and would sure make a real mixed up looking fleet if you assembled just livestock ships by themselves let alone with other types.
in the case of converted car carriers or RO/ROs, all you'd have to do is rip out the pens to clear the deckspace if you wanted to carry larger stuff - lot easier than building new decks for a bulk cargo carrier
an while I think of it, what about the NS Savannah? Nuclear powered cargo/passenger ship. it was still around in the early 90s as a museum ship somewhere
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dvyws 08-26-2008, 08:21 AM A couple of notes on the comments regarding bulk carriers (I don't have a bee in my bonnet here, it's just something I actually know something about, for a change!).
Load them with conext and shipping containers. I bet you could stack a good number of them inside.
You could. But, either you have to find a way of securing them (and you are talking about towers of containers 5 or 6 high inside the hatch, bearing in mind that the North Atlantic gets rough at times, so you are going to need cell guides - i.e. the dockyard job I was talking about initially - and why bother, when there are container ships already around?), or you bung the boxes in so tight that they can't move - but thenn the doors won't open, so any troops inside are stuck there until unloaded - I suppose that you might get a few survivors, but to be honest I wouldn't bank on it... Comne to think about it, that is going to be a problem with dedicated container ships, too, the containers aren't accessible at sea.
I have also contemplated using such ships. wooden deakcs within. A framework of steel supports running across the width of the vessel, then sheets of thick plywood get fastened atop of them, and having 4X4s or other beams as vertical supports could work in a pinch.
As long as I don't have tp go into the hold when the ship's at sea (or in port, either, come to think of it!). I know people are a relatively light load per unit area on the decks,so the tween decks wouldn't need to be built to the normal industry specs, but it is going to be a LOT of dockyard work again - it isn't something ships crew could just knock up on the fly. So, again, why not use a suitable type of ship in the first place?
One of you was talking about stuffing troops and equipment in bulk carriers being difficult. Were not these troops being shipped back home supposed to left most of their equipment behind? Wasn't this operation supposed to be something like the British evacuation at Dunkerque (bombing excepted and with somewhat bigger ships)?
Well, yes, you could "stuff" a LOT of troops in a bulk carrier, if you just open the hatch and pour them in. The problem is deck space (and bulk carriers are designed to have the maximum volume of hold for the minimum deck space) once you have a layer of troops on the deck, where do the restgo - the only place is on top of the layer below. Fine for bags of cement, not so good for people...
I think the problem is that I'm not explaining myself very well - trouble is, I know what I'm trying to describe, but I'm not very good at putting the message across. How about, think about a gymnasium, and how many people you can get in there. The limiting factor is the floor space, not how high the walls are. And bulk carriers are designed to maximise volume while minimising floor space. Does that help?
I expected nobody to really take care of that equipment thing and, therefore, I thought that cranes wouldn't be that much of an issue. Moreover, I also thought that you would not have so many big ship, I'm surprised you didn't include large fishing boats and may be some yachts (the type you can see in Maine). In my understanding, the US Navy assembled what it could for the military vessels and whatever it found in term of civilian ships. I would also imagine a large number of troops to be packed on the USN ships.
Yeah, I understood that most of the big stuff was being left behind, but thee wil probably be a fair bit of stuff that the guys (or their leaders) want to keep. Not to mention food and water. All that will need to be loaded somehow. It won't be impossible without cranes or derricks, but they will make life a hell of a lot easier.
As for yachts and fishing boats - well, rather you than me. Firstly, you need to find ones with the range to cross the Atlantic without refuelling (I refuse to point blank even think about trying to RAS a small boat in the North Atlantic in anything other than a flat calm ( which it usually isn't - it can get bloody ROUGH out there, guys!). How are they going to keep up with the convoy? Most merchant ships will happily do a good 15 knots or so, and most yachts and fishing boats, err, won't. Plus, there is the fuel/benefit ratio - you couod send one large ship across the pond ffor all the fuel the little guys will be using, and you will be able to bring a LOT more troops home in it. It's only about 20 miles across the channel, remember, so Dunkirk only goes so far as an analogy.
Something that I've never seen mentioned in the past is livestock ships
Actually, yes, very practical. It would work. You wouldn't get me on one - but then I'm not a survivor of a nuclear war trying to get home! Only problem I can see is most of them run in and out of the Persian Gulf, and the ones I came across were running from Australia and New Zealand. I would think that there would be equivalents from South merica,tho? Might be difficult to have them where you need them, otherwise, go for it! Incidentally, one of the weirdest ships I ever came across was a combination cruise ship and sheep carrier - forward end was livestock, after end was tourists. (think about prevailing winds on a ship - normally from ahead, due to its speed). The thing they don't tell you about livestock carriers is that they STINK! Must have been a fun cruise for the tourists, as they wiouldn't dare open a door or port, much less go out on deck!
Sorry to bang on about this stuff, but it caught my interest (always dangerous!!)
David
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 08:51 AM About range, I agree for the yachts (I thought about it too late). However, many fishing ships won't have the problem. Portuguese ships, for example, are fishing codfish off the canadian coast and up to the artic and then back to Portugal. Don't forget that a fishing campain can last for several month and I was not thinking about the coastal types. Actually, that idea came from the numerous ones that had been used during WWII by the allies and the current ones are much more powerful. Moreover to get a ride home you won't care about the smell.
About, the equipment, outside of what a man can hold, I don't think the commanders will have anything to say. It will simply depends on what the HQ is willing or capable to make.
About the cranes, I agree that it makes life easier, but that happens at a time when nobody really cares about making life easier. The only point is about getting a ride home under some kind of protection.
Agree that the food issue is an important one but you can ration it and I would expect that espect of things to have been carefully planned. Still, you are right, the cruise back home will be something between 2 or 3 weeks. (I forgot when this was suppose to happen as my players never had to do this trip).
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 09:56 AM It also caught my interest and I looked a little deeper into this. I came up with some more ideas if you don't mind.
I never realized it (out of pure ignorance) but Bremerhaven was a very good choice for such operation. It is the 6th container port of Europe and potentially gets a lot of working gears to achieve such operation. Nevertheless, I would expect this harbour to be very highly damaged as is Hambourg and as would be Wilhelmshaven (the main oil terminal and the main naval base in Germany).
As a result, I expect the US Navy to load troops from small boats and from whatever they can (much like the British at Dunkerque). Most of the port installations would certainly be destroyed. Actually, I just looked at the "Going Home" module and it states exactly that "strict adherence to the baggage allowance would be enforced". Moreover, US agreed to leave their heavy equipment for the German Army to take. Don't do it and you can expect some kind of resitance on the German side and I'm not sure that a fight with the Bundeswehr will help greatly.
Nevertheless, If you get a working harbour, I would think that everyone is right about Bulk Carriers. However, as you can expect to have a huge amount of containers around, Container Ships would be a wiser choice. Someone also talked about some kind of liners and I agree, especially as you have some cruising in the Carribeans.
If I remember well the amount of ship is bearely enough and I still think long range fishing ship can be an option (Ok, I know I'm insisting on this) :ices_ange . The first thing to stop in case of a war is long range fishing. You cannot protect them and these ships are easy prey. Then, the ships will be standing in ports for some times and long range fishermen are very brave sailors (they would be more than well suited for such operation) and they will certainly be willing to go as these guys use sail when everyone refuses to do it.
A last question then. Don't you have at least one Icebreaker in this fleet as it is supposed to leave on November 15? That could come from the canadian fleet and it might be useful if you travel through the Iceland route (The channel might be risky and it could be wise to plan for a harsh and early winter). Times have been known in the past where the North Sea Coast was locked in ice and Twilight 2000, if I recall, is not especially a time of global warming.
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Hangfire7 08-26-2008, 01:10 PM Ah so many funny things said, loved the half cruise ship half sheep ship, the poor bastages.
As for my idea of an interior conversion of a bulk carrier. It is a big job for sure, but would it require shipyard work? An interer crane, a few dozen guys with welding skill and the steel to make the frame work, which I suggested could be gotten from railroad rails. I figure it would take about a month. And keep in mind you have a few divisions of men who want to get home after spending the last four or five years in hell. That is propper motivation.
As for the shipping containers, two ways of doing it. Weld them in place, add supports again from railroad rails. Leaving and making a lader well and platform at both ends using steel shipboard ladderwells <more like stairs> and gratings like on many enginerooms. This allows movement and air. These can be at both ends of the containers, or having two containers or even three end to end. Another methods is to just stack the containers then cut through every fourth countainer and build a stairwell down as well as vehnilaton ports, and go all the way down. Then turn the containers into living quarters and other facilities.
All of it is major work for sure but it can be done without a dockyard to refit and it all can be done with minimal materials and in short order.
As for the task forces sailing in Novermber YIKES!! Who was the brainiac who came up with a winter crossing of the atlantic? ARGH!!!
Also, here is another idea, what about the use of barges towed by some of the more able ships?
As for sailing across the Atlantic, if it were my, I'd go via a larger sailboat in the Spring. I would think, cross from the mainland Europe to England and Ireland, then depending on the charts, sail West or otherwise follow Europe, around Spain and then to Africa where the distance is the shortest and cross to S. America where I would then work my way up the to N. America. Once in the Caribean you have dozens of smaller islands where the war will have not affected as badly as Europe of the United States, many of the islands are poor and thus never had to rely on modern technology on the scale that Europe and the United States does.
Of course the shortest route would be to do the GIUK in reverse working your way to Nova Scotia and then working your way South. However, the down side here is the chances of Ice and storms, not something I would want to handle in a modern sailboat of the size and class i have in mind.
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 02:00 PM For the half cruise, half sheep ship, they might not have to complain that much, at least they might be warm if they fill the sheep part with cattle.
For the November Cruise, that should be some high ranking admiral. That's also why I didn't suggest "Fruit Ships" and there must be some around as they usualy carried Bananas out of South America and Orange out of Florida. The problem is that when crossing the Atlantic in winter with a refrigerated ship you end up with dead meat or Human Frosen Sticks (Crazed Ben&Jerrys might have planed for it after all).
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dvyws 08-26-2008, 04:52 PM Yeah, the Atlantic on November - one of my favourite trips, even taking the southern route (Gibraltar to the Bahamas). Thinking about it, you actually won't need much in the way of rations for the troops - the poor guys won't feel much like eating for most of the trip. And don't laugh - real seasickness ain't funny (been there, got the very heavily stained T shirt!). Worse still for anyone on a tug or a fishing boat - and being rough, tough, immune (through long practice) types,the crews aren't going to be overly sympathetic...
The bulk carrier conversions would work, but the point I was trying to make was, would you want to allocate all that resource, when better alternatives are available? Although, given the mind set that decided on the operation in November, I can see a consistent level of decision making, here...
The fishing boats would work, too, but either you organise a separate convoy for them, or you send them across unescorted (I suspect the crews would actually prefer that, but tryingto co-ordinate them would drive the admirals crazy very quickly). But you are not going to get too many bodies on each boat. The big advantage is that they won't need too much functionality in the ports, just a stretch of usable quay.
Containers - it would probably be best to just use alternate rows, that would solve the access issues (or at least provide space for the ladders). Bear in mind that above decks all the containers need to be loaded with access doors facing aft (one trip will show you why!). I would suggest doing the box loading before sending them to Germany, cos I don't think too much of the port infrastructure will be working, and fuel for what is left (straddle carriers, cranes, etc) is likely to be short.
Barges - hmm, iffy in November (and slow - two convoys is beginning to look good!). Technically feasible, probably, but can I go on a ship, please?
One thought - the United States was in Norfolk in the 80s/90s at Norfolk (the civilian port). Not sure if she would still be afloat at this point, but if so, she was designed as a strategic troop carrying asset, following the success of converted liners as troopships in WW11 - she would increase the capacity of the fleet immensely. And she was FAST - she could be sent across with just a minimal escort (just don't zigzag - I'm thinking Queen Mary & HMS Curacao - ouch!), and make a couple of trips while everyone else made judt the one. Or she could go back for stragglers later?
Or you could just ask the Brits nicely, and borrow Canberra &/or QE2? If either survived, they would probably have been long since converted into troopships.
Hope I haven't come across as too negative, ion this thread. I'mnot trying to spoil anyones hard work, but it caught my interest, and I wanted to see how it could be made to work in practice. Of course, it doesn't help that I hsaven't read Going home....
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chico20854 08-26-2008, 05:55 PM This is an Orbat I have come up with for a Campaign book I am trying to write some material I got from Task Force 34 by David Bober, others I have taken from the GDW publication Going Home, just looking for some feed back, I have assumed that the remains of the Six Fleet in Med would link up with the Task Force for the journey home. So let me know what you guys think
Task Force 34
Background
The following vessels comprised part of Task Force 34 (TF 34), the US Navy’s task force that is tasked to repatriated American troops from Europe to the USA.
USN Elements
USS John Hancock (DD-981) Spruance-Class Destroyer (Flagship)
USS Leahy (CG 16) Converted Leahy Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Wainwright (CG-28), Belknap Class, Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Tattnall (DDG-19), Charles F. Adams Class, Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Talbot (FFG-4), Brooke Class, Frigate
USS Chief (MCM-14), Avenger Class, Mine Countermeasures Ship
USS Corpus Christi, (SNN 705) Los Angles Class, Attack Submarine
USS Edson (DD-946) Forrest Sherman Class Destroyer
USCG Elements
USCGC Tamaroa (WAT/WMEC-166) Coast Guard Cutter
USNS Elements
USS Wichita (AOR-1), Wichita Class, Replenishment Oilier
SS Flickertail State (T-ACS-5), Keystone State Class, Crane Ship
MV Cape Douglas (T-AKR-5052), Cape D Class, Ro-Ro Ship
USS Powhatan (T-ATF-166), Fleet Ocean Tug
USS Grapple (ARS-53), Safeguard Class Salvage Ship
USS Newport (LST 1179), Landing Ship Tank
National Defence Reserve Fleet:
SS American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Barnard Victory, Victory Ship
SS Hattiesburg Victory, Victory Ship
SS Earlham Victory, Victory Ship
SS Occidental Victory, Victory Ship
SS Pan American Victory, Victory Ship
SS Queens Victory, Victory Ship
SS Red Oak Victory, Victory Ship
SS Rider Victory, Victory Ship
SS Winthrop Victory, Victory Ship
Merchant Navy Elements
Vessels from the US
All of these vessels were pressed into service during the beginning of the Twilight war and this represents the last of the western US Shipping assets, most of these ships are commanded and manned by USN personnel most of them are retires recalled to duty.
Aetos Bahamas Flag Bulk Carrier
Cunard Princess Bahamas Flag Cruise Ship
ASL Cygnus Bahamas Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Petrobulk Progress Bahamas Flag Tanker
Stena Searider Bermuda Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Plyos Honduras Flag Bulk Carrier
Topaz Honduras Flag Tug
Amer Asha Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Expedient Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Prince Shaul Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Unselva Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Yannis II Panama Flag Bulk Carrier
Hual Margarita Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santos Panama Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Santania Panama Flag Tug
Falcon St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Velenje St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Bulk Carrier
Ville Du Harve St. Vincent/Grenada Flag Roll On/Roll Off
Non Sea-Going Units
Task Force 34 Headquarters Staff
This is main headquarters of the Task Force and Commanded by Rear Admiral Craig Sheeley, he has staff of 50 officers and enlisted sailors, it quartered aboard the USS Leahy
Navy Mobile Construction Battalion 23
COMSCLANT has assigned the Seabees of NMCB 23 to support quayside and engineering operations at Bremerhaven during the embarkation of US personnel. The battalion has an H&S Company and five Seabee companies 90 men in total. The Seabees are to repair damaged port facilities and established temporary electrical and fresh water supplies for the embarkation area.
Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419
This 10 man team will conduct salvage operations of any merchant or US Navy vessels in the port of Bremerhaven or the surrounding area. They will also repair any ships that remain of the US Navy’s Six Fleet that can make to Bremerhaven port. This unit will also conduct a survey of the surrounding area for any ships that can repaired for use by the task force
Naval Coastal Warfare Group
This 45 man will provide water side port security to the task force while it is in the port of Bremerhaven, since the navy was short of personnel some US Coast Guard personnel have been added to this unit
Navy Shore Party
This small group of sailors and marines which support the Navy and Marine units with a passenger and cargo ferry service. Their job is ferry the Army’s men and equipment to task force’s ships
Navy Assault Unit One
This is a small Navy Seal and Marine Force Recon Unit that was put together to take Bremerhaven by force if necessary. The unit has 100 men in five platoons of 20 with 6 RIB crews. They will also provide the security element for Mobile Diving and Salvage Unit One - Detachment 419 survey and recovery missions
Marine Units
2nd FAST Company
MARFORLANT is assigned the 2nd FAST Company to TF 34 for force protection of the task force during embarkation operations at Bremerhaven. The company deployed five platoons commanded by, Major O’Connor, and musters 120 Marines in four platoons. Upon landing they will absorbed the Bremerhaven Naval Provisional Security Battalion
US Army Elements
Composite Engineering Group
This US Army unit was put together at the last minute to destroy any equipment that couldn’t be taken with Task Force 34, and to provide addition support to NMCB-23 it has 60 men mostly from ANG units
22nd Special Forces Group
This recently form unit is made up of 20 recalled former Special Forces operators who mission to find out what happen and recover (if possible) Operation Reset
US Airforce Units
Technical Salvage Team
This 20 man team is being sent to Europe to find and salvage any remain aircraft parts, airframes and air munitions for shipment back to US
Other Units
Recon Team 9
This CIA backed team will land under the cover of operation Omega and conduct long range patrol to gather intelligence on Europe and into Russian if possible, there extraction will done the USS Corpus Christi at a later date
Remains of the US 6th Fleet
Navy Ships
USS La Salle (AGF-3) Raleigh-Class Amphibious Transport Dock/Command Ship
USS Vella Gulf (CG 72) Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruiser
USS Ramage (DDG 61) Arleigh Burke-Class Guided Missile Destroyer
USS Gladiator (MCM-11) Avenger Class Minesweeper
USS Butte (AE 27) Kilauea-Class Ammunition Ship
Naval Air Units
Fleet Logistics Support Squadron Four Zero [VRC-40] "Rawhides" 1 C-2A "Greyhound" (disassembled and being transported in the USS Butte)
Marine Units
8th US Marine Regiment
Other Navy Units
USS Comfort (T-AH 20) Hospital Ship
Sent to the European Theatre to provide troops with additional medical assets, docked in Spain for most of war this ship is loaded with about 1,000 wounded servicemen, 350 Navy personnel from various US Navy units and the ships crew of 1200, the ship is also the six surviving members of Seal Team Two
Other Units in the Mediterranean
173rd US Airborne Brigade
This unit was part of NATO’s Operation Carthaginian which successfully stopped Italy from interfering with naval operations in the Mediterranean the unit is about 3,000 all ranks
Composite Airforce Unit
250 all ranks is all that remains of the Airforce in the Mediterranean mostly ground crew and a few pilots
We in DC are pretty close to having our comprehensive US Navy ship list (and dispositions) complete. Law & I were working on it over the weekend. If you can wait a few weeks I should have a summary out on my website. A few things I can mention:
173rd Airborne, according to a post from Frank Frey (one of the GDW writers) about 2 years ago, was deployed to Mombassa, Kenya on COIN duties. We in DC are working on the assumption it is still there (and have a good reason why).
Likewise, we had 6th Fleet mostly declare for Civgov, as many of their ships are in Jugoslav ports and the Army units in Jugoslavia are Civgov assets. I also have other plans for them (and a deeper explanation for Operation Omega).
Matt Wiser has seen the navy side, and we're working to coordinate our stuff. For US carriers in the Atlantic, we currently have Enterprise in Belfast with damage but still afloat & with working reactors, Eisenhower is in Iceland, and Washington is in Portsmouth. JFK is in Jugoslavia, declared for Civgov. We've got to call Matt and coordinate ship names, we're more concerned with class than individual ship at this point.
As far as the subs go, we're having a hard time explaining the loss of 107 of the 108 attack subs the USN can put to sea (not to mention another 42 boomers). Even at the end of WWII the German and Japanese sub forces didn't sustain that sort of loss rates. So if you'd like to consider some other sub than Corpus Christi send me a PM I'll give you what we have so far for ship fates. We had SSN-724, USS Louisville, participating in TF 34.
We imagined the escort force would be a little smaller. Going Home mentions that the John Hancock is the flagship - to me that implies that TF 34 had no cruisers, as no self-respecting admiral is going to plant his flagship on a destroyer when he can use a cruiser. In addition, there isn't much of a threat that requires a large escort force - Soviet Backfires, commerce raiders and nuclear subs have more than likely ceased serious operations and even one destroyer is more than enough to scare away year-2000 pirates.
As for the merchant ships to use, I'm ambivalent. I agree that there are a huge number of a wide variety of merchant ships still afloat and at least somewhat serviceable, so Going Home's portrayal of the TF 34 fleet as a hodgepodge of German rivergoing and coastal ships doesn't make too much sense to me. Nonetheless, we're going to run with it - smaller ships require less harbor facilities, and we're trying not to overturn too much canon. The fleet you have is much larger than you need - the 10 Victory ships and the escorts would be enough to move the troops (without equipment) in the rough conditions described in Going Home.
NS Savannah was afloat but decomissioned at the time. The Maritime Administration (where I work) didn't have any plans to bring her back into service in wartime - the technology was late 1950s, finding trained crew would have been a challenge, the cargo capacity was low considering the resources needed to operate her, and the disastrous consequences of her loss precluded her reactivation.
So I beg your patience while I write up what we've come up with. Deacon has had a sneak peek and liked it! It's just too incomplete to put up yet. Jason also has something in the hopper that will get you all thinking! And also I'd like to echo Jesse in that I don't mean to be critical of your work, just trying to keep more continuity between our various efforts to flesh out canon.
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Law0369 08-26-2008, 06:50 PM Too second dan I have donr alot of work on the united states Marines and there activities during the war I have completed the order of battle and still have the unit historys to write up . If you can all just wait ;i think you will be pleasantly surprised with our work here trying to flesh out cannon. IF anyone has any last miniute ideas on the marines please im me so we can talk thanks.
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Hangfire7 08-26-2008, 06:50 PM Yeah, the Atlantic on November - Hope I haven't come across as too negative, ion this thread. I'mnot trying to spoil anyones hard work, but it caught my interest, and I wanted to see how it could be made to work in practice. Of course, it doesn't help that I hsaven't read Going home....
snip:
No offense taken on my part. 1st as for seasick, back in the day no problem, heck I enjoyed the rocking and such. today, well I went below into the cabin of our boat while at sea and well I started feeling queezy and had to get some fresh air. It pissed me off as I had never been seasick before in my life. Does this mean I am getting old? So, it can strike anyone, anytime.
As for my ideas, I was just brainstorming thinking the best way to use what vessels were available. IE make do with what you got.
And yeah the November crossing! ARGH!!! However, how many troops would be left in Europe at this point? I wonder, next time I get my materials out of storage I will add up the numbers in the vehicle guides order of battle.
But, really if you were evacing, how many aircraft carrier or if one or two of the battleships were online, those would I am sure have enough space. Heck I remember on the Belueawood we woke up one morning and had army dogies lying in the corridors and on the flight deck. Damn sailors can't keep anything clean, leaving perfectly good armymen laying all over the ship :)
But if you opened most of the spaces and crammed men wherever, I think you could probably need just a handful of vessels. I took a freind who visitedf from Seattle to the USS Midway last week, and if you turned the hangar deck into a barracks it wouldn't be that hard. Put down half a dozen connex boxes along the center of the hangar deck and install heavy planking atop and then install bunks on both levels 4 bunks tall and you could fit in my view more than a full strength regiment, probably even two. And a modern carrier? give me a schematic and I bet I could cram a division ;) And I would have all of the men smilling, just give them the propper motivation, YOU ARE GOING HOME JUST REMEMBER THAT, SO SUCK IT UP!
Remember, the QE2 does the Atlantic crossing in 3 to 4 days, and it normaly has a 6 hour turnaround, so it could be done.
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Mohoender 08-26-2008, 10:59 PM In this case I definitely think the crossing will be something between 2 or 3 weeks. You are forming a convoy and the average speed for it would be something like 10 or 15 knots (most ship not going at there top speed). Nothing in common with the 30 knots of a liner. Moreover, the trip might be a little longer as some searoute can be difficult to use.
As in every war convoy, if one ship doesn't make it, it will be left behind and that can be interesting in term of game play. Twilight, assume that they all made it home nice and safe, I really cannot sea why.
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Targan 08-27-2008, 12:29 AM As for the task forces sailing in Novermber YIKES!! Who was the brainiac who came up with a winter crossing of the atlantic? ARGH!!!I took this into account when my campaign reached the Going Home stage. In Major Po's group his 2IC was a USN SEAL Lt Cmdr who had previously been a meteorology specialist with fleet ops experience so he ended up in command of the RO-RO ship the PC party was assigned to. We RP'd out the whole voyage and there were some major storms during the crossing. The ship hit rocks as the fleet was sailing north of Scotland and that damaged the bow doors of the RO-RO. Latter in an even more severe storm the forward doors started to leak severely and eventually the pumps couldn't keep up and the ships lower decks started to flood. She eventually capsized but before that happened some of the soldiers aboard panicked and mutinied. Gunny Lamont, the ridiculously hard core USMC NCO based on Gunny Highway in "Heartbreak Ridge" led a group which put down the mutiny but was caught deep below decks when the ship capsized. Major Po's 2IC, the USN SEAL who was a PC did a truly heroic dive on the capsized vessel towing a spare diving suit and air tanks and got Lamont out. Very inspiring stuff it was and there were some epic gaming sessions involved.
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Hangfire7 08-27-2008, 01:36 AM I took this into account when my campaign reached the Going Home stage. In Major Po's group his 2IC was a USN SEAL Lt Cmdr who had previously been a meteorology specialist with fleet ops experience so he ended up in command of the RO-RO ship the PC party was assigned to. We RP'd out the whole voyage and there were some major storms during the crossing. The ship hit rocks as the fleet was sailing north of Scotland and that damaged the bow doors of the RO-RO. Latter in an even more severe storm the forward doors started to leak severely and eventually the pumps couldn't keep up and the ships lower decks started to flood. She eventually capsized but before that happened some of the soldiers aboard panicked and mutinied. Gunny Lamont, the ridiculously hard core USMC NCO based on Gunny Highway in "Heartbreak Ridge" led a group which put down the mutiny but was caught deep below decks when the ship capsized. Major Po's 2IC, the USN SEAL who was a PC did a truly heroic dive on the capsized vessel towing a spare diving suit and air tanks and got Lamont out. Very inspiring stuff it was and there were some epic gaming sessions involved.
Nice, a little over dramatic but cool. Um, where did he grab the dive suite and scuba tanks from? I have half a dozen issues with that scenario off the top of my head, but no need for me to be anal. It was a good storey though. There is just one think I really want to ask, what on earth made the Gunny go below when the ship was ready to turn turtle?
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Targan 08-27-2008, 01:44 AM Nice, a little over dramatic but cool. Um, where did he grab the dive suite and scuba tanks from? I have half a dozen issues with that scenario off the top of my head, but no need for me to be anal. It was a good storey though. There is just one think I really want to ask, what on earth made the Gunny go below when the ship was ready to turn turtle?All very good questions. It would take me hours to describe all of the background. Among the gear the PC party had brought onto the ship was a whole bunch of specialised spec ops equipment including a bunch of different kinds of diving gear. The party (especially Major Po) had a quite special relationship with some very senior US officers by the time of Going Home. Bear in mind that Major Po and his group had virtually ended the Soviet campaign in Poland by backpack nuking WarPac Reserve front HQ at Lublin so they were being treated as heroes in Bremerhaven. Their equipment allocation was quite large.
The Gunny was below decks with others of Po's unit fighting it out with the mutineers for several hours and it didn't become apparent that the ship was going to capsize until a short time before it happened. Shortly before the capsize Gunny had sent Po's girlfriend back upstairs with a sitrep so Po knew roughly where Gunny was when the ship keeled over.
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