Favorite Shotgun

[Raellus]

Ditto. What's your favorite shotty?

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the Pancor Jackhammer is the most interesting -- it's not only automatic, you can turn the ammo cassette into an antipersonnel mine!

[Legbreaker]

The Mossberg was the one I selected. Why, because it's the only one from the list I've actually shot (although I think it was the 590).

[Targan]

H&K CAWS. What a concept.

[jimbo4795]

I always wanted to find a way to convert a H & K CAW into a belt-fed support weapon. Mounted on a vehicle's pintle mount, I think it would be a very good, short-range anti-ambush weapon.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I chose Other because although I would happily pick the Pancor Jackhammer and the HK CAWS, I can't decide between the two although I lean towards the Jackhammer because you didn't need specialist ammunition for it.
While I've had some slight experience with shotguns I have no idea what it was except that it was a friend's under/over trap gun and the only other one I've used was another friend's Winchester Ranger pump-action.

[jester]

Jackahmmer! I read an article about those in the mid 80s and it was just plain cool! And the issue of rounds melting in the chamber from fast firing which the SEALS complained of using their Ithiaca M37s.

As for now with real weapons the Benneli is sweet! And one of my scouts who barely stood 5 feet tall could handle a 12 gauge well enough at the range. As for pump guns, the Remington 870 is good to go! Although I am cool with the 590 too.

And lets not forget the SPAS, it is cool! the only shotgun that can do semi auto and pump!

But for the T2K world, the SPAS! the cool factor, the high mag capacity and ease of use of assorted ammo.

[kato13]

But for the T2K world, the SPAS! the cool factor, the high mag capacity and ease of use of assorted ammo.

Not to mention that it was used by Arnold in the Terminator movie.

[jester]

Not to mention that it was used by Arnold in the Terminator movie.

Despite its use by my boss, I will not hold that against it, its not the weapons fault it was used by an inept leftist fraud.

[kato13]

Despite its use by my boss, I will not hold that against it, its not the weapons fault it was used by an inept leftist fraud.

Real life Politics aside (as they should probably be on this forum). IMO No one actor had more cool weapons in their movies than Arnold. The Long slide with laser, the M214, the Spas-12 to name just a few.

[Targan]

Despite its use by my boss, I will not hold that against it, its not the weapons fault it was used by an inept leftist fraud.

I thought Arnie is a Republican? Do you have leftist Republicans? I obviously still have much to learn about US politics.

Oh, and I'm happy to be educated via private message. I'm not looking to start any politically motivated flame wars here.

[Legbreaker]

...the M214....

I thought that was the M134? :confused:
Same prop as was used in Predator.

[kato13]

I thought that was the M134? :confused:
Same prop as was used in Predator.

Good call.

Nicknamed "Old Painless", a hand-held M134 Minigun is the main weapon of the movie carried by Blain (Jesse Ventura). It has been modded for Commando use with an M60 handguard and a rear pistol grip. The weapon was powered by an electric cable hidden in the actors pants and fired reduced power 7.62x51mm blank rounds to ease the recoil force. It is believed in real life a similar weapon was tested by US special forces in the 1970s but found impractical. Although rumored to be an XM214 'Microgun' which fires the smaller 5.56mm NATO rounds, it is the larger M134 hence the barrel cluster.

source:http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Predator#GE_M134_Minigun_Handheld

I have seen that in print incorrectly at least three times. Wow even my copy of "Guns Guns Guns" which I revere, got that one wrong.

[Targan]

I thought that was the M134? :confused:
Same prop as was used in Predator.

I thought the weapon in Predator was the M214. It is 5.56mm. Either way a person carrying around and firing from the hip a 6-barrelled gatling gun is a pretty unlikely and crazy idea but the M-134 is 7.62 and I think that firing it without it being mounted on a vehicle or a tripod wouldn't just be unlikely, it would probably be impossible.

Perhaps we should look on the Internet Movie Firearms Database and see if it tells us?

Edit: Just realised that Kato got there first. Thanks, I stand corrected.

[kato13]

I thought the weapon in Predator was the M214. It is 5.56mm. Either way a person carrying around and firing from the hip a 6-barrelled gatling gun is a pretty unlikely and crazy idea but the M-134 is 7.62 and I think that firing it without it being mounted on a vehicle or a tripod wouldn't just be unlikely, it would probably be impossible.

Perhaps we should look on the Internet Movie Firearms Database and see if it tells us?Beat you to it :p

[Legbreaker]

A seriously kick ass weapon if ever there was one, but totally bullshit as far as reality goes.

But how many of us can honestly say we haven't had a moment of munchkinism and WANTED ONE soooo bad it hurt?

[kato13]

A seriously kick ass weapon if ever there was one, but totally bullshit as far as reality goes.

Guns^3 calculated the recoil of the 5.56mm version at 95 kilograms. (Slightly less if using AP ammo). As a GM I am thinking that holding it and directing fire of the 7.62mm version would be like benching over 150 kilos. You would also have to be braced against something mighty strong or you would be knocked to the ground.

I only allowed the M214 to be used once in a Dark conspiracy game when a heavy weight boxer had taken two levels of alien cybernetic enhancement for a 12 total strength.

[Rainbow Six]

And lets not forget the SPAS, it is cool! the only shotgun that can do semi auto and pump!

But for the T2K world, the SPAS! the cool factor, the high mag capacity and ease of use of assorted ammo.

Spas 12 was my favourite ever since I saw it in (I think?) the V1 Small Arms Guide. (If it wasn't there it must have been on Paul's site).

[pmulcahy11b]

You know what we really need? A belt-fed shot-machinegun!

[Raellus]

IIRC, Futureweapons had a piece on a steel-bodied, shotgun that I believe was fully automatic. They had it rigged up to MRAP vehicle mounts and a bomb squad-type robot.

The new Benelli that the Marine Corps is adopting looks seriously sweet but it's a little too new for the v1.0 timeline.

[Matt Wiser]

SPAS-12 and the Benelli semi-auto that Alec Baldwin used in The Getaway remake. Either one is capable of some serious damage.....

[Targan]

You know what we really need? A belt-fed shot-machinegun!

Then Cyberpunk 2020 is the game for you! IIRC there is a 6-barelled, binary propellant, 10 gauge gatling shotgun in that game called the CLAWS. I think in the description it said that the sound of firing it included notes like tearing metal.

[General Pain]

I must go for :

double barreled sawed off 10gauge shotgun - 1 buck and 1 slug - I usually carry 2 of them. Low bulk, but packs a hell of alot of damage.

the ultimate player-character-slayer - sadly the last time I used it only 1 of the barrels worked - RIP GP -

[simonmark6]

Sawn off 120mm cannon.

[kato13]

Sawn off 120mm cannon. Shame they never made the 120mm Flechette round (in the timeline) or you really might have something.

[simonmark6]

What about a bag of nails launched by a powder charge?

[jester]

I'll go with the M198A1 155mm howitzer in the horizontal postion with a beehive round!

TOP THAT SUCKERS!

[pmulcahy11b]

I'll go with the M198A1 155mm howitzer in the horizontal postion with a beehive round!

TOP THAT SUCKERS!

Did they make beehive for the 203mm?

[sglancy12]

I'm going to have to go with the Winchester M1897 Trench gun.

Five round tubular magazine with one in the chamber for six.

Pump shotgun, with an exposed hammer, so you can carry a round in the chamber and easily see whether the weapon is cocked, hence whether the weapon is safe.

Allegedly you can hold the trigger down and work the slide to fire very very fast (but with little accuracy).

You can attach a bayonet, specifically the M1905 Bayonet, which is a good long pig sticker for those times you blunder into someone in the dark.

It has a magazine release button on it that allows the entire tubular magazine to be emptied in the blink of an eye. A safety feature oddly absent on all modern shotguns. The only way to unload tube magazine shotguns is by manually working the slide or action, which can result in an accidently discharge if you are the village idiot... or just unlucky.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[jester]

Actualy you can empty a tube from a shotgun without feeding them through the chamber.

Flip the weapon upside down, push the feeding lever up and depress the lever that holds the shells in place and pop, pop, pop, out come the shells pretty fast.

[Legbreaker]

That depends on the weapon in question. I've handled (and own one) where that is physically impossible. The only way to unload without stripping the weapon to it's component parts is to cycle the rounds through the chamber and out the ejection port.

[sglancy12]

Actualy you can empty a tube from a shotgun without feeding them through the chamber.

Flip the weapon upside down, push the feeding lever up and depress the lever that holds the shells in place and pop, pop, pop, out come the shells pretty fast.

Shoot. I forgot about that. I just checked and yes, it worked on my Mossberg 500.

But you have to admit that this is a fairly clumsy operation, and it still only gets the shells out one at a time.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[jester]

[QUOTE=jester;18307]Actualy you can empty a tube from a shotgun without feeding them through the chamber.

Flip the weapon upside down, push the feeding lever up and depress the lever that holds the shells in place and pop, pop, pop, out come the shells pretty fast.[/QUOTE

Shoot. I forgot about that. I just checked and yes, it worked on my Mossberg 500.

But you have to admit that this is a fairly clumsy operation, and it still only gets the shells out one at a time.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing


Then you're doing it wrong ;)

You can do it one by one, but with a little practice you can hold the tong or whatever that part is down and pop pop pop, they come out with the force and pressure of the spring and fingers can be hit if you aren't careful. I will have to practice when I get home, I haven't even had my shottys out in a couple years let alone loaded or fired them.

[Antenna]

Real life Politics aside (as they should probably be on this forum). IMO No one actor had more cool weapons in their movies than Arnold. The Long slide with laser, the M214, the Spas-12 to name just a few.

I did some calculus on the M214 couple of years ago and came to a resoult that IF a 200 ibs man would fire a M214 with normal .223 ammo he must stand in a somewhere 45 to 55 degrees angel to the ground. Movies have a tremendous inpact on players when they wish for weapons... Lasers, Gauss, Plasma for they specially designed T2k soliders... Sniper rifles with three barrels so they can shot with the best bullet there is for the best range there is and the weight is nothing more then for a M24.

Antenna

PS
Rant on Munchkintosis along players...
DS

[headquarters]

Find most munchkinesqe player with loudest demands - allow everything but be really hard on demanding accurate gear sheet.(Alot of work writing)
Then fudge an attack roll from NPCs and stray bullet to head w critical hit and instant death.Enemy then loots all gear and turns it against party .

aahhh...

I did some calculus on the M214 couple of years ago and came to a resoult that IF a 200 ibs man would fire a M214 with normal .223 ammo he must stand in a somewhere 45 to 55 degrees angel to the ground. Movies have a tremendous inpact on players when they wish for weapons... Lasers, Gauss, Plasma for they specially designed T2k soliders... Sniper rifles with three barrels so they can shot with the best bullet there is for the best range there is and the weight is nothing more then for a M24.

Antenna

PS
Rant on Munchkintosis along players...
DS

[Tegyrius]

I'm gonna be a big dirty heretic again and give props to Izmash's Saiga. Kalashnikov manual of arms and engineering. 8-round detachable magazine that's roughly the same profile as a 30-round AK-47 mag and only a bit thicker, so it'll fit in at least some ComBloc LBE. Felt recoil is, at least to me, appreciably lower than the other 12ga semi-autos I've shot. Some timeline fiddling might be required to make them available in the 1.0/2.0/2.2 Twilight Wars, though maybe not - I'm not sure of the exact start of production date but they were being built for export at least as early as 2001.

Barring that, Remington 870. Spare parts are everywhere and a pump gun sometimes will cycle stuff that will choke an autoloader.

- C.

[Antenna]

Find most munchkinesqe player with loudest demands - allow everything but be really hard on demanding accurate gear sheet.(Alot of work writing)
Then fudge an attack roll from NPCs and stray bullet to head w critical hit and instant death.Enemy then loots all gear and turns it against party .

aahhh...

Hehehe I know but there are times in your GM life where there only are Munchkins to get playing T2k. But a warning sign for that you have a munchkin in you group can be that you have a "normal" weapon pack is that it as follows :
M3 Carl Gustaf attached to a M214 with three laser forming the predator three sign and four sights fired either from the hip or the shoulder and said from the munchkin "It can be done" :D

Antenna

[headquarters]

and of course -that is his small gun..

We always debate and bicker about munchkinosis in our group.Mostly it goes well ,but sometimes the antimaterial rifles come out ..I had one PC use one .I said it had a 4 feet muzzle flash .It was night .He continued firing .The enemy taken casualties concentrated their fire on the area of the flash.

He took a .50 bmg to one arm and could not be found by medics in the dark.PC bled to death.

Not so many carrying the antimaterial rifle as primary weapon now..

A fine balance to keep up interest and still make a little realism...

Hehehe I know but there are times in your GM life where there only are Munchkins to get playing T2k. But a warning sign for that you have a munchkin in you group can be that you have a "normal" weapon pack is that it as follows :
M3 Carl Gustaf attached to a M214 with three laser forming the predator three sign and four sights fired either from the hip or the shoulder and said from the munchkin "It can be done" :D

Antenna

[Antenna]

and of course -that is his small gun..

We always debate and bicker about munchkinosis in our group.Mostly it goes well ,but sometimes the antimaterial rifles come out ..I had one PC use one .I said it had a 4 feet muzzle flash .It was night .He continued firing .The enemy taken casualties concentrated their fire on the area of the flash.

He took a .50 bmg to one arm and could not be found by medics in the dark.PC bled to death.

Not so many carrying the antimaterial rifle as primary weapon now..

A fine balance to keep up interest and still make a little realism...

The best with munchkins are that mostly lack all kind of social skills so if you blend in some social duality for example that NPCs lye every 2nd turn they munchkins are lost in a maze of cat and mouse of where to go and who to thrust. The best part is that if you can keep smiling you can really turn the munchkins head into some paranoid version of Kafka like game.

Antenna

[Webstral]

I'm gonna be a big dirty heretic again and give props to Izmash's Saiga. Kalashnikov manual of arms and engineering. 8-round detachable magazine that's roughly the same profile as a 30-round AK-47 mag and only a bit thicker, so it'll fit in at least some ComBloc LBE. Felt recoil is, at least to me, appreciably lower than the other 12ga semi-autos I've shot. Some timeline fiddling might be required to make them available in the 1.0/2.0/2.2 Twilight Wars, though maybe not - I'm not sure of the exact start of production date but they were being built for export at least as early as 2001.- C.

If I had the budget for a new shotgun, I might go with the Saiga. The older I get, the more I appreciate the Kalashnikov approach to firearms.

My vote, though, is for the Mossberg 500. It's what sits in my gun safe and what goes to the range with me. I like simple and reliable, like my SKS and my .357 revolver.

Webstral

[Brother in Arms]

While I like many of the shotguns listed
my favorite shotgun is the Ithaca Model 37!

Here are its major benefits, It has fewer parts than most pump shotguns which means less parts to potentialy lose or wear out. It has all steel contruction, wereas the reciever and trigger group of many of the other shotguns have aluminum or plastic components (which are difficult to repair if damaged). It has only one openening in the reciever so its less likely to acumulate dirt and debris, the other benefit is the location of the loading/ejection port is that its on the bottom of the reciever making both the loading and ejection of spent shells ambidexstrous.Another feature of this firearm is that it has no disconector meaning that the trigger can be held down and the forend pumped and it will continue to fire you send 5 rounds down range really fast. Like most other pump shotguns it has an easily removed barrel and they can swapped for longer or shorter barrel lengths.
I also really love the asthetics of this shotgun, it has smooth clean lines and it handles very smoothly and comes up on target well. It is also a fairly light weight shotgun.

It does have a few drawbacks...the majority of these shotguns can only chamber 2 3/4" shells so you cant use 3" magnum rounds, lessening the ability to use found ammo. That being said 2 3/4 are most common especially in the T2K period. Also doesn/t have many accesories which is not something I really see as a drawback. As I like keep it simple but then again if anything I am pretty old fashioned.

If I was toting an model 37 it would probably be the 20 riot model, with a nylon M14 sling. If I could I would aquire #4 buckshott which contains 28 pellets of .24 caliber diameter. If I couldn't aquire that 00 or 000 buckshot.

(as for saiga 12 importation to the US I had one imported in 2000 but I don't think this shotgun would exsist in t2K)

[Raellus]

I've got my eye on a 6 shot Mossberg 500 tactical with pistol grip and CAR-style adjustable stock. Now if only I can convince my wife that it's a good investment...

[Targan]

While I like many of the shotguns listed

BIA! Good to see you posting again man.

[Targan]

I've got my eye on a 6 shot Mossberg 500 tactical with pistol grip and CAR-style adjustable stock. Now if only I can convince my wife that it's a good investment...

I envy you guys living in places with less restrictive gun laws. Here in Oz even pump action shotguns are a no-no. Ridiculous.

[Webstral]

I envy you guys living in places with less restrictive gun laws. Here in Oz even pump action shotguns are a no-no. Ridiculous.

Here, the NRA would have us believe that if we don't all become lifetime members (of the NRA), the Democrats in charge of [insert a) White House b) Senate c) House of Representatives d) governor's mansion e) state legislature f) two or more of the above] will follow the example set by the UK and Australia. It's a shame that the two extremes of the private firearms issue can't come to some agreement, as both sides have some things to offer and some baggage in need of shedding.

Here in the People's Republic of California, the state has a list of features that classify a weapon as an assault weapon. When the legislature realized that banning specific firearms was futile (renaming a firearm is easier than amending a law to include a re-named firearm), they devised a list of features that includes a pistol grip, a detachable magazine with a capacity greater than ten rounds, a bayonet lug, a flash suppressor, and a folding stock. Any weapon with more than one of these features is considered an "assault weapon", which is not to be confused with an assault rifle. Owning an assault weapon is a felony. There are plenty of ways around this, though. For instance, one can build an SKS with a muzzle brake and a monte carlo stock and have the option of leaving the bayonet lug intact. I really don't see the need for a bayonet lug in the civilian world. That's why God made the .357.

I'd love to go back to Arizona as a gun owner, though. Or Texas, or Nevada.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

(as for saiga 12 importation to the US I had one imported in 2000 but I don't think this shotgun would exsist in t2K)

The Saiga would exist in T2K, but would probably not be found outside of Soviet, Polish, and Czech military hands (barring capture, of course).

[pmulcahy11b]

I envy you guys living in places with less restrictive gun laws. Here in Oz even pump action shotguns are a no-no. Ridiculous.

In Texas, gun laws are very lenient compared to the rest of the country, but the mentally ill (like me, dammit) still can't get one! :mad:

The thing about "assault weapon" laws is that they are usually drafted by the anti-gun lobby. I'm pretty left-wing politically and I think the anti-gun lobby is rabid. (I also think the NRA is rabid as well, to be fair.) Given the right circumstances, I could kill someone bare-handed or with my feet, should they be declared "assault weapons?" Everything could be an "assault weapon" -- you just have to know how to use it.

[Legbreaker]

I really don't see the need for a bayonet lug in the civilian world.
Because using a bayonet is more satisfying?
:firedevil

[pmulcahy11b]

Because using a bayonet is more satisfying?
:firedevil

I like how in training we were told that if your bayonet get stuck in the victim, shoot them to dislodge the bayonet. One should do that as a matter of course...:firedevil:firedevil

[waiting4something]

My favorite shotgun of all time is the USAS-12. I have not shot mine yet, but it is one heavy and solid piece of gear. I had a Saiga 12 didn't like it at all, it felt cheap and was not reliable like the ak rifle as everyone thinks it is(atleast in my findings). The USAS-12's only fault as of right now is its weight and bulk, but with that it won't kick that much I bet. It looks kinda like a M16 on steriods. It can take 10 round mags or 20 round drums and some sources say it had at one time 12 round mags and 28 round drums. The military versions are selective fire with a 360 rpm rate of fire(mines not).:(
I do realise that a shotgun like this is really only good for limited roles and you wouldn't wanna be humping all over the place with it. I think the best shotgun to have for practical reasons or if the world went to hell is your basic pump shotgun though. They can eat all that low base crap, work dirty, and don't need lube. For pumps I like my 590, but a 870, 1300, or 37 are good pumps too.

[Legbreaker]

The military versions are selective fire with a 360 rpm rate of fire(mines not).:(

Yet..... :D

[waiting4something]

Yet..... :D

Oh how I wish. :devilsmil

[Raellus]

I had to channel Civero but I finally broke the wife down. After four years of pleading, I'm getting my Mossy tomorrow!

[Owen E Oulton]

I had to vote Other... The Atchisson AA12 Assault Shotgun seems to be the ultimate shotgun to me. I mean take an oversized M-16which fires 12 ga. full auto from a 20 round drum! Nasty, nasty, nasty. I've been a fan ever since I saw it in 1st ed. TMP. I just worked out T2K stats for it last night...

[Legbreaker]

You had me up until M16....

I have to admit though it is a very cool weapon (inspite of it's M16 resemblance). Any shotgun capable of firing a bucketload of rounds very quickly without having to reload half way through can't be bad.

[pmulcahy11b]

You had me up until M16....

I have to admit though it is a very cool weapon (inspite of it's M16 resemblance). Any shotgun capable of firing a bucketload of rounds very quickly without having to reload half way through can't be bad.

It's not really an oversized M-16. The designers just used the exterior design, and most importantly, the controls to take advantage of the muscle memory that US troops already have.

[pmulcahy11b]

How about a 6-barrel rotary CAWS?:rifle:

[simonmark6]

Only if it's belt fed...

[HorseSoldier]

12 Gauge buckshot already weighs a ton and takes up a bunch of space as is, without tacking links onto it . . .

[jester]

Just make it hopper fed, that simplifies things.

[simonmark6]

That would work too...

[HorseSoldier]

Indeed.

The one thing I really like about any manner of shotgun loading besides manually is that one could get beyond the "shoot two, load two" manual of arms. Had to do enough of that while moving to cover and such in the police academy that, while I can run an 870 really well, I hate pump shotguns on an instinctive level . . .

[jester]

As for fav shotguns:

I just picked up a Benelli a police trade in, I have fired one a few times at the range and a scout had one when I was their primary weapons guru for their merit badge. The shotgun was 12 gauge, it was the short home defense version, this thing was still almost bigger than the kid using it.

A sweet system! And honestly it is the only semi auto shotty I have used in earnest, and would endorse as one I would carry in harms way. I have fired the SPAS, but it was so long ago, I just don't remember. A good system but that is all I remember.

Although for game purposes, the idea of a character having a Browning auto is a tempting idea for a characters primary personal weapon. After all a shotty is much better at close range than a pistol and much more forgiving when it comes to pressure shooting and aim or lack of aim :D

PS Paul, you can petition to have the restriction overturned so you can utilize hardware again.

[pmulcahy11b]

PS Paul, you can petition to have the restriction overturned so you can utilize hardware again.

It's probably best I don't. I can get pretty damn depressed sometimes.

[jester]

You and me both mi amigo, I just pulled check this out, added all up a disability rating of 230%!

Remember, just take it one day at a time. Its worked with everything for me from smoking to drinking....to other things.

[pmulcahy11b]

You and me both mi amigo, I just pulled check this out, added all up a disability rating of 230%!

Got me beat, my disability rating only adds up to 125%. (Unfortunately, they only pay me 100%). However, if the bill passes, I may be eligible for CDRP next year -- the VA rates me at 125%, but the Army rates me at 50%, and an extra $500-700 per month would be quite nice. Unfortunately, the bill has has a low chance of passing...

[jester]

Got me beat, my disability rating only adds up to 125%. (Unfortunately, they only pay me 100%). However, if the bill passes, I may be eligible for CDRP next year -- the VA rates me at 125%, but the Army rates me at 50%, and an extra $500-700 per month would be quite nice. Unfortunately, the bill has has a low chance of passing...

You gotta be shitting me!

They gave me like I said all the percentages added up to something insane, but I am paid at 90% because I can and do work.

Here is one, your mom lives with you, have you included that, since they do pay extra for taking care of spouses and family members to include parents.

I gave you my info when I was married and lived in Long Beach, back in 05. If you want, I can shoot you a call and give you some info. I until last week was a Vet Rep ;) So, I kinda know the game and the rules.

[pmulcahy11b]

You gotta be shitting me!

They gave me like I said all the percentages added up to something insane, but I am paid at 90% because I can and do work.

Here is one, your mom lives with you, have you included that, since they do pay extra for taking care of spouses and family members to include parents.


They bumped me up 50% and rated me unemployable at the time at the time due to the effects of psychiatric medication alone. Antipsychotics, especially the heavy dose I take, tend to make you into a zombie; I'm awake maybe 6-8 hours a day and truly alert about four. Meds like Nuvigil and Provigil can keep me awake and alert much longer, but long-term use (two weeks every day or more) causes them to knock out my antipsychotics -- and you don't want to be wide awake and alert and psychotic. So I only take them as needed, like when I need to get my mother or myself to an early appointment. And believe me, you don't want me off my antipsychotics! I was working before that point, but I kept falling asleep on the job and I'm surprised I never had an accident from falling asleep at the wheel.

As for my mother -- well, I told her that she could divorce my stepmonster at any time, probably take him to the cleaners due to his history with the family, and I could take her as a dependent and still get her Tricare. I checked on that. For whatever reason, she won't dump him, even though they are separated and she has no intention of ever going back to him. (And I've already told him that he's not welcome on my property -- "don't even pull into the driveway.") But for whatever reason, she stays married to him. Beats me. Oh well. He's a nursing home wreck now anyway, and my brother has power of attorney over his finances, so we'll never have any problems with him again. And I don't want him to die, strangely enough; I want him to live and suffer.

Pity party over.

[JimmyRay73]

I've always had a soft spot for the big 3 pump guns: various Winchesters (old model 12, 1300 Defender, etc), Remington 870 (3" Magnum rifled slugs fired as fast as possible through an 870 Wingmaster is great percussive therapy...), and the Mossberg 500/590 series. Forced to choose i went with the Mossberg because its a happy medium. No matter what I'm feeding it, no matter what joint is sore or which arm is dominant due to any given day's injury listing the Mossy is easy to adapt to. If I'm not close to medical care or even if I slept on my arm in an awkward position on top of a tree root I want the Mossberg so I can still kill stuff easily with my off hand on the trigger and a numb arm working the pump.

[Legbreaker]

Paul, I was trawling your site (as usual) and came across this little gem under shotgun ammo:
The 20-Gauge round once indirectly saved the life of a sergeant I had when I was in the Army. His wife was trying to kill him, and was trying to load 20-gauge shells into 12-gauge bird gun…he was able to get out of the house and call the police.
I sooooo want to know more about this, particularly just what in hell had he done!?

[pmulcahy11b]

Paul, I was trawling your site (as usual) and came across this little gem under shotgun ammo:

I sooooo want to know more about this, particularly just what in hell had he done!?

I don't know many of the details, but the one time I met SGT Rozar's wife, she seemed to me to be a bit high-strung, and he was always talking about marital difficulties.

[Legbreaker]

She sounds a bit like my ex-wife and all he'd have needed to do to piss her off is breath...
:(

[HorseSoldier]

E-7 I worked with at one point had the experience of having taught his wife to shoot a double action revolver for self-defense. Sometime later, during an argument, she grabbed his High Power (condition 1) and proceeded to level it at him and pull the trigger. Luckily, the DA revolver she had learned to shoot had no external safety in the mix, so despite pulling the trigger more than once there was no boom before he was able to wrestle it away from her.

[Rockwolf66]

Unfortunatly for me my girlfriends like sharp and pointy things better than they do guns. I say unfortunatly as at least one can shoot better while drunk and in high heals than alot of urban guys can sober...And they train more to use those sharp and pointy things.


As far as my favorite shotgun goes I've shot mostly mossbergs since i was a young teenager.

[bobcat]

for shotties i gotta say the saiga. never had a problem with mine (cept the price of mags). of course i also made sure to get the gas tube fixed when i bought it.

[Badbru]

I'm going to have to go with the Winchester M1897 Trench gun.

Five round tubular magazine with one in the chamber for six.

Pump shotgun, with an exposed hammer, so you can carry a round in the chamber and easily see whether the weapon is cocked, hence whether the weapon is safe.

Allegedly you can hold the trigger down and work the slide to fire very very fast (but with little accuracy).

You can attach a bayonet, specifically the M1905 Bayonet, which is a good long pig sticker for those times you blunder into someone in the dark.

It has a magazine release button on it that allows the entire tubular magazine to be emptied in the blink of an eye. A safety feature oddly absent on all modern shotguns. The only way to unload tube magazine shotguns is by manually working the slide or action, which can result in an accidently discharge if you are the village idiot... or just unlucky.



Absolutely concurr with this assessment for all those reasons, plus one;

I also think it looks cool.:cool:

[Brother in Arms]

BADBRU

Written by Sglancy12

in regards to the model 1897 winchester

"It has a magazine release button on it that allows the entire tubular magazine to be emptied in the blink of an eye. A safety feature oddly absent on all modern shotguns. The only way to unload tube magazine shotguns is by manually working the slide or action, which can result in an accidentally discharge if you are the village idiot... or just unlucky."

Something many people don't know....In most modern shotguns if you depress the shell stop with your finger (little arm inside of the reciever that hold the shell in the tube) it will spit out one live round at a time. I have had to do with many many times with the remington 870 when the action's got stuck shut but there were still lives rounds in the chamber.

Brother in Arms

[Raellus]

My Mossberg 500 has the same feature. It's definitely a safer way to empty the mag- no chance of accidentally discharge and it's easier on the shells too.

[Panther Al]

I had to vote Other... The Atchisson AA12 Assault Shotgun seems to be the ultimate shotgun to me. I mean take an oversized M-16which fires 12 ga. full auto from a 20 round drum! Nasty, nasty, nasty. I've been a fan ever since I saw it in 1st ed. TMP. I just worked out T2K stats for it last night...


Doing some serious Thread Necro, but I was flipping through the you tubes, and for laughs I watched FPSRussia's channel, and saw this:

AA12 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8)

[Brother in Arms]

AA12 is a really cool firearm I. I think the original Blowback version from the 70's is truly exiting though!

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/usa/atchisson-aa-12-e.html

And I wasn't meaning to reserect such an old thread but I wanted people to know that you didn't have to cycle all the rounds through a pump shotgun to unload one.

Brother In Arms

[stg58fal]

I dislike shotguns. They are useful for only a few, rather specialized things (intimidation and master key). Generally something else will serve the same purpose much better.

That being said, I really like my Saiga-12.

[Raellus]

I'd say they're pretty handy for CQB too.

[Brother in Arms]

Like anything they have there uses...But most of the time Id rather have a rifle.

[waiting4something]

Shotguns biggest problem is they have really not had much advancement since the 1897 Winchester. Rifle and even pistol advancement has been a bit more progressive.

[Jason]

I dislike shotguns. They are useful for only a few, rather specialized things (intimidation and master key). Generally something else will serve the same purpose much better.

That being said, I really like my Saiga-12.

Let's not forget they are pretty good at taking fowl. :)

[Brother in Arms]

waiting

there has been lots of great developments but none really ever caught on. I think mainly because of the design of the shotshell itself....it's heavy, bulk, rimmed and is also semi flexible and can potentially deform or swell. Also they vary in pressure depending on payload of the round which can really affect semi auto or full auto function. Also ultimately its always been a back burner weapon for the military.

Here are some interesting designs:

SOF (MIWS)
Swatriplex 18
Striker 12
MAG-7
SPAS-15
Pancor Jack Hammer
AA-12
Neostead
SAIGA-12

Of course newer Kel tec KSG and UTAS 12 (but these are more or less copies of earlier designs but took 30 years to finally catch on)

[waiting4something]

I know what your saying Brother. There have been other styles of shotguns made outside the tubular feed models, but they are never really that much of a improvement. The Vepr 12 looks like the best thing that has come out in awhile, but that is no Twilight 2000 weapon. Your right, I think the fact that we are still using the same 12 gauge ammo that we have been using for over 100 years is a big part of this problem. It'd be like trying to design every rifle around a .45-70 round. The CAWS program ventured into using different sized cartridges and I think that was about as far as it went.

[Brother in Arms]

I have always been impressed by the full length brass cases developed for the CAWS by Olin. The Russians also have used full length steel cases.

One of the reasons the CAWS failed was the flechette rounds didn't properly stabilize.They have been trying to develop a flechette launching firearm for a long time.

Shot shells and there construction have come a long way even since the 1980's but the real problem is the sheer size of the cartridge. I think if they used modern sabots and maybe rifled bore they might be able to achieve more.

Perhaps the 3 1/2 shells will come to prominence in the future. But I think shotguns in general will always be hampered.


Brother in Arms

[Olefin]

my fave is the one I carried in the game as well as have in real life

My great grandfather's double barrel 10 gauge lupara

Very very reliable - and no matter what you are wearing for body armor if both barrels hit you, you arent going to be standing

(and yes it kicks like an sob if you pull both barrels)

Basically the ultimate close combat weapon - nothing says "goodbye Ivan" after you kick the door in better than that - except maybe a grenade (regular or for those into Call of Duty the rocket propelled variety)

biggest problem in the game was finding ammo - basically had to get my empties reloaded - managed to find a small amount of shells in Krakow that were new but otherwise no luck

[Rockwolf66]

Someone call General Pain,


http://victran.tumblr.com/post/73871483284/serbu-super-shorty-with-a-black-aces-tactical

It seems that Real life is trying to out munchkin him with an 18" long shotgun that feeds from Saiga 12 magazines.

[CDAT]

and of course -that is his small gun..

We always debate and bicker about munchkinosis in our group.Mostly it goes well ,but sometimes the antimaterial rifles come out ..I had one PC use one .I said it had a 4 feet muzzle flash .It was night .He continued firing .The enemy taken casualties concentrated their fire on the area of the flash.

He took a .50 bmg to one arm and could not be found by medics in the dark.PC bled to death.

Not so many carrying the antimaterial rifle as primary weapon now..

A fine balance to keep up interest and still make a little realism...

Have you ever used the Barret .50? I had one in Iraq and the muzzle flash is not that bad, the report off of it is a different story, it was blowing holes in the house we were shooting out of, makeing the mouse hole in to a much bigger one.

[CDAT]

My choice would be the Mossburg 590A1 with eight round tube, eight round side saddle and four round speed feed stock (twenty total). TacLight and bayonet lug. We have a couple of them at work and thought of much better than our 870 most officers get.

[Brother in Arms]

the 590A1 is a pretty tough pump gun. After years of being a gunsmith I think the 590 has less parts breakage and is easier to repair than the Remington 870.

I don't like side saddles very much, but the speed feed is a great idea (especially for law enforcement)

The Bayonet lug is a feature that I truly gravitate towards, make more sense to me on shotgun than on a rifle.

Id have to get an long bladed Eickhorn bayonet like the isreali's bought for the Galil.

http://i33.tinypic.com/8xlg1t.jpg