The loss of modern infantry weapons

[kalos72]

So I was thinking last night about refitting a few militia units in my campaign and realized something. What do I arm them with?

I haven't really thought much about it but since there are no more factories running 1000's of M16 off the line, do you think there are enough of them floating around? I mean how many M16's could I reasonably buy from NYC?

Armies of the Night for example has the M!6 as 'common' at $600 per. Does that mean I can go there every day and possibly buy one?

Or am I looking too deeply into the mechanics of the game versus just some assumed "artistic freedoms"?

And that leads me into my next question...What parts of the M16 would a T2k world be able to produce?

Seems most of the parts are either aluminum or steel, which could be smelted from steel ibeams or rebar I guess. Could the receiver be steel too? And I guess we could use wood stocks to replace the plastics, making the weapon heavier of course.

Can you melt the receivers/barrels from civilian weapons to reform an M16 receiver? Or perhaps re-chamber a civilian rifle to a 7.62 or 5.56?

[fightingflamingo]

I would say manufacturing new modern firearms in the T2K post war environment is generally going to be two complex for most (nearly all) enclaves you'd find anywhere. The V1 Small Arms guide addresses this particular issue somewhat with the M16EZ.

However, don't forget the number of firearms generally available in the United States, so a variety of AR15's or Mini-14's may be a good choice as they are not uncommon, SKS's and AK-clones are also possible, going up to the far less common M1A's, but the vast bulk of these weapons will be bolt action hunting rifles. The US government holds large stocks of M1's which in my campaigns I have the Feds supplying to the states for use in their local militia's and state defense forces, which by 2000 could wind up in the hands of many local militia's as central control breaks down and these forces disentegrate.

[kalos72]

Thats true about the shear number of pistols/rifles/shotguns in the US today, but after a point, the more modern military weapons will need replacement parts or even be worn past the point of repair. What then?

How does the a states militia arm itself? I have seen post where some militias are listed with 4-5000 men. Surely each state doesnt have a stockpile of M1's in those numbers no?

So my thinking is if we can repair nuclear power plants, reload ammunition from base chemicals, I am sure we can use a lathe to pump out some , perhaps inferior to prewar production, replacement parts. IE "Rifle River".

But if not, surely a 4000 militia isnt gonna want to arm itself with a dozen different weapons, carrying a dozen different caliber ammo or have to reload a dozen different types of ammo either.

Long term - would modern military weapons survive or would larger forces start to resort back to more medieval warfare and such?

[fightingflamingo]

the US government maintained hundreds of thousands of M1's as part of it's war reserve.

[kalos72]

Does anyone know where? Perhaps that a whole new adventure then...

I was reading up on the M1 and it seems to be a rather simple rifle to produce considering its era. Steel and walnut...

Is there much of a difference in the 30.06 and 7.62 Nato?

[headquarters]

I agree with those who say that the stockpiles of M1 30-06 rifles, M-14 .308s ,Us Carbines etc + various smgs and lmgs are substantial in the US.

They probably have stockpiles of M16s too.

This is in addition to all the tens of thousands of AR15 type civillian weapons and tons of spare parts out there .In a major city that has bylaws that allow firearms - I am pretty sure I could get myself relatively well armed by rummaging through a few FedEx/UPS /carrier services centers.

But if none of it is available - and you have an organization that can spare food to run a simple weapons program - SMGs can be made by hand and simple power tools and plumbing supplies.Look at the pakistani tribal areas-they make al sorts there -much of it with hand tools.

I never did buy the m16ez .To close tolerances in the ar family for that too work well -unless entirely made of regulation /factory spare parts

The Poles built SMGs in the woods using parts brought in on bicycle with little or no tools during WWII.
Many small workshops made Stenguns in nazi occupied Europe and other smgs too.

Going improvised is an option - if you like the idea.

[kalos72]

So do you think I am over thinking the problem of arming a few thousand militiaman with a decent, standardized, combat rifle?

[Webstral]

Kalos, I don't think you are overthinking the problem at all. You have to set your own standard for realism. I encourage you to think through the most important aspects of arming a militia.

The real killer for assault rifles after the nuclear exchange isn't going to be over-use. The real killer is going to be neglect and other types of improper maintenance. Even on Manhattan, owners of M16 type rifles aren't going to be firing a magazine of ammunition every day. In most locations, the rifles may go weeks without being discharged. This isn't to say that some rifles won't wear out from overuse. However, the need to conserve ammunition will prompt the most heavy users of assault rifles in CONUS to emphasize good rifle marksmanship over spray-and-pray. Again, there will be those who empty magazines to no effect; but they won't last long. By 2000, pretty much all of the assault rifle users will have figured out the mismatch between the rifle's ability to fire ammunition and the local ability to replace it.

Regular, disciplined maintenance of firearms will be a serious issue in 2000. Rust happens. For the M16 family, diligent maintenance is a must.

I try to avoid allowing the information contained in a module to override my common sense. In the case of M16s in New York, a working M16 is going to be worth a lot. Its high magazine capacity, low recoil, and emphasis on use against targets at ranges closer than 400 meters make it a good weapon for the urban jungle of Manhattan. Close quarters combat will feature prominently in the tactics of the so-called armies of the night. The M16 has an excellent mix of features for offsetting the potential advantage of the gangs' inclination to mass, move under cover, and assault in numbers as a means of negating the defenders' fire. In other words, what M16s are available are going to be prized possessions. Some explanation ought to be offered for why a working M16 is being sold by anybody. Equipping a unit of any size with M16s deserves some explanation. I commend you for putting some thought into your work.

Webstral

[headquarters]

So do you think I am over thinking the problem of arming a few thousand militiaman with a decent, standardized, combat rifle?

not at all .It gives the campaign credibility if details like this has been thought through .

[Legbreaker]

With regard to the availability ratings, they should be used as a reflection on how many of a certain item are in the area, but not how many are actually available for purchase. Remember, theft/scrounging happens and this is where the availability ratings really become important.

As far as producing quality weapons, that's just not going to happen in 2000-2001 unless you're sitting on top of a prewar weapon and/or munitions factory. Even then you still need to power it and supply the materials to produce any really significant quantities.

From say 1998 through to around 2010, I'd have to say most weapons arming militia groups will be prewar civilian weapons with a sprinkling of military weapons "found" laying about somewhere. There is also likely to be a high percentage of more primative weapons - bows, crossbows, slingshots, etc. Depending on resources, some of the more simple firearms may also be produced as previously mentioned - basic SMGs, single shot rifles and shotguns, and so on.

Once the society gets itself back on it's feet a bit and industry can be reestablished, then production of more advanced weapons and ammo can take place.

I see a period from roughly 2-3 years after the nukes through to the beginning of advanced production where weapon numbers will far oustrip ammo supply - each rifle might be down to just a handful of rounds and so most combat will be with the bows, etc.

[Abbott Shaull]

Stamped sub-machineguns would be the easiest thing to mass produce on the limited basis. Considering Oldsmobile plants that made light fixtures were used to make M3 Sub-machineguns.

The hard part would be to get the material for production. One has to remember there several varieties that one could go with.

AK family had several stamp parts.

After that it would be limited production of weapons. Gun smith in a community would be commodity that a one wouldn't want to let them go. Apprenticeship with them would be sought after too.

Leg does bring up a good point. Not much sense producing weapons if you don't have supply of ammo.

One might even see local militia using old black powder weapons too. Seeing a unit lining up facing an enemy that they 'know' don't have more advance weapons in their inventory. There was a reason why they included rules for bows and crossbows in the game......

[Legbreaker]

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

[kalos72]

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...

I would think you could run the mass of a militias force with more primitive weapons, perhaps even limiting the firearms to a "weapons platoon" or something. Leaving a mechanized reaction force equipped with military style weaponry to deal with bigger threats. Plus you would still have simple mortars for indirect fire support.

Or even just keep the militias as part of internal security freeing the more advanced weaponry for the less secure areas of your area.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I tend to basically agree with most thoughts here. I think you would see the most skilled shooters given the better quality military or civilian firearms because they could make the most impact with them and the militias main body would be equipped with whatever they could bring or find.

You may have one platoon equipped with hunting rifles and shotguns and another with military rifles simply out of necessity although I do very much agree that ammunition will be the real deciding factor - why give some nervous kid just recruited into the militia a semi-automatic rifle when you could give him a single shot bolt-action (that way you teach him to make each shot count)

You could even have special units with bows as their main weapon with rifles as a backup.The benefit of the bow and arrow is it's relatively quiet and you can sometimes recover your ammo. You form some people into a stealthy unit to sneak into range on the flanks of the bad guys, pepper them with arrows for a minute or so then they pull back. This can be very demoralizing and you've not had to waste many if any hard to replace bullets.

[Slappy]

As for the specific point on cost and availability in the module, here's my take.

Common: I'd say that it would be common to find one at a street market, maybe two. Some weeks there will be none, sometimes as many as a dozen from several sellers if someone has recently found a cache. The condition of the items may vary. Some will be in good shape, some nearly unusable due to poor maintenance or overuse. I don't think that it would be possible to buy more than a few without eating up the available supply. The market just isn't that deep. No one is sitting on crates and crates waiting for a wholesale deal. They would have already made one with the Mayor or another militia.

$600: This is the usual price and it's fairly expensive. I don't have my referencs, but that is the equivalent of something like 100 liters of ethanol or 200 kg of food, enough to feed someone for a month or two if I remember. Not that many people have that sort of cash. These sales would be fairly rare. That's why the market isn't that deep. There aren't that many qualified buyers. The resources required to buy 20 M-16s and hundreds of rounds of ammo are only available to a handful of people on the island. If you wanted more M-16s, expect the price to climb steeply after the first couple.

C / $600 is a perfectly reasonable assingment, just don't expect to go back to that well too often.

[weswood]

You could also use a catapult or small trebuchet for indirect fire weapons at strongpoints. A small keg of gunpowder or burning pitch could ruin someone's day.

[Legbreaker]

I like the explosive crossbow bolt idea alot actually...


Just be aware that there's unlikely to be any safety mechanism on these munitions. Once the fuse/deonator has been installed, the slightest touch could potentially be fatal. Also, depending one what's being used, the shock of firing might be enough to detonate....

It's an assignment that would very quickly be seen as a death sentence by many.

Depending on the skill of the gunsmith or mechanic involved, they might be made a bit safer. Where penetration isn't necessary, hand grenades could be used as the explosive, with the pin pulled before firing and the grenade breaking loose of it's "launch platform" on striking the target, thereby releasing the lever.

As mentioned in Airlords of the Ozarks, grenades in glass jars could be useful too - put a handful in a catapult instead of dropping them from above.

[kalos72]

Imagine an M3 chambered for a 5.56Nato round...

[Targan]

Imagine an M3 chambered for a 5.56Nato round...

I can't. For many reasons such a conversion wouldn't be possible. Or rather, you would have to re-work almost every major component of the weapon so there would be little if any of the original weapon left. The M3 is a blowback operated weapon firing from an open bolt. It fires a .45 pistol round. I'm happy to be corrected but I don't know of any 5.56mm weapons that use a blowback, open bolt system. You'd have to massively reinforce the whole receiver. Then there is the magazine well and the mags. And that tiny length, narrow barrel would have to be replaced with a much heavier barrel to avoid it rupturing and probably much longer one (or be prepared for a really fearsome muzzle flash). I'm sure others can think of even more problems with a 5.56 conversion for the M3.

[kalos72]

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

[Targan]

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

Abso-wuckin-lutely. As many of you know I've played a great deal of Harnmaster, a highly realistic, low-fantasy RPG set in medieval times. In that game heavy crossbows and particularly arbalests ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbalest ) are weapons to be truly feared, even by the most heavily armored knights. You generally need a hand crank or other mechanical device to load them so their rate of fire is low but if they hit you're steaming meat, real fast. An arbalest bolt would punch right through a car door and probably also the opposite door too.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

[Targan]

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

In theory you could but it would be pretty difficult. You'd need one or more gunsmiths who would not only need to be highly skilled at their trade but also intimately familiar with every tiny aspect of the M-16. Trying to perfectly replicate every component would be a nightmare. Some components would need very specific types of materials (particular grades of hardened steel for instance). The receiver of an M16 is made from aluminium alloy so you can forget about producing those, you'd have to fabricate steel versions instead. That would change a number of characteristics of the weapon (cooling, weight etc).

Seriously, if you have an expert gunsmith and a really well equipped machine shop you'd be much better off choosing a much simpler weapon to copy and produce (I'm thinking one of the many WWII SMGs that were produced using stamped components for instance).

A major factor in what weapon to choose to manufacture would be what ammo do you have the most of (or what ammo can you reload/produce yourself). If you can't practically reload or manufacture sufficient quantities of decent quality, modern, smokeless powder ammo your only choice would be to produce black powder weapons. On the plus side a skilled weaponsmith with a good machine shop could really churn out large numbers of black powder weapons in a short period of time.

I admit that producing good quality brass cases might be a problem but take a look at these weapons ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1873 ) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1892 ) as examples of black powder firearms. That's a big fat 44-40 Winchester bullet and assuming you can hit your target its going to do some real damage even at quite long ranges. Older weapons used other materials including cardboard to make black powder cartridges. If you want to go for a really simple weapon you could even produce muskets. Unfortunately though they are slow to load and not very accurate. If you've reached that point you'd may as well produce some kick-arse heavy crossbows using flat truck springs for the arms.

[kalos72]

What about this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1894

[Targan]

What about this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1894

Great rifle but it uses smokeless powder cartridges. Smokeless powder is more difficult to manufacture than black powder. I was using the Winchester 1873 and 1892 as examples because they are black powder weapons.

[Targan]

It's not too accurate, but a catapult or trebuchet might make a good mortar substitute, especially with a flaming payload. Several large rocks in one load might make a good substitute for ICM. Or better yet, a load of grenades.

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

[Targan]

Kalos, perhaps these old threads might contain information useful to you:

Improvised Ammunition = http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=13

Ammo Reloading = http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=600 (you'll probably remember this thread as you started it :) )

Can anyone remember other threads that might be useful?

[pmulcahy11b]

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them? Tape them around a primer charge with some kind of impact fuze? You'd really want to avoid them exploding before they leave the weapon.

Maybe futz with the fuzes -- remember that batch of fuzes for F-1 grenades that US special ops troops found in Lebanon in the 1980s? They had delays ranging from 0-13 seconds (depending on the fuze).

[jester]

I would think something along the lines of a Mini 14 or a AR 18 would work better than going for a M16, the Mini 14 is forged with a basic Garand style action which is simple, rialable and durable.

Or the AR-18 which is cool, alot of it is a stamped reciever again simple to make with less resources.

I would use a gas system similiar to a M14 or a FN/FAL to deal with the varied powder.

As for the catapult, just load it with a basked full of fist sized rocks so when it flies the rocks fill the sky and land. On massed troop formations it will do damage and break bones.

As for grenades, fulminate of mercury <like in caps> can be the detonator, make the "grenades" into dart like shapes with a weighted end where your "cap" igniter is thus setting the bomb off.

Another option, regular grenades in a jar or even a can with the top cut off, pull the pins, let the jar or can hold the lever down. When the thing flies it will come loose and well you will have a good number of airburst explosions <more effective than impact for troops> or when they hit the ground the jar breacks, letting the lever fly or is tossed from the can again letting the spoon fly, end result lots of explosions.

[Targan]

As for grenades, fulminate of mercury <like in caps> can be the detonator, make the "grenades" into dart like shapes with a weighted end where your "cap" igniter is thus setting the bomb off.
I like this. It would be easy to attach some kind of tail to a grenade to make the end with the impact fuze hit the ground first.

Another option, regular grenades in a jar or even a can with the top cut off, pull the pins, let the jar or can hold the lever down. When the thing flies it will come loose and well you will have a good number of airburst explosions <more effective than impact for troops> or when they hit the ground the jar breacks, letting the lever fly or is tossed from the can again letting the spoon fly, end result lots of explosions.
They use that very method in Airlords of the Ozarks. It is a clever idea.

Edit: Legbreaker already pointed out the Airlords of the Ozards connection.

[pmulcahy11b]

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

I confess I only have very limited armorer experience, but I wouldn't want to try to reproduce an M-16 in a primitive shop. You'd have better luck with those old hardy Russian SMGs or even an AK-47.

I once read a book (or maybe it was a short story?) where some time travelers went back in time to try to allow the Confederacy to win (no, not Turtledove's superb Guns of the South). What was the war-winning item they took with them? Plans for modern gunpowder, and especially, plans for the Sten SMG. That's a weapon that could be reproduced pretty easily. They introduced it to JEB Stuart as a weapon for his cavalry forces, and an SMG would be excellent for horse-borne forces.

[jester]

Or a simple cast iron two piece body that screws together, that looks like a "teardrop" shape thus, the heavy explosive end will always hit first and blow.

The fat or bottom end of the teardrop will have a hole about 1 inch in the bottom, a pressure plate will also be there on the outside covering a large portion of the bottom so when it hits the plate slams the fulminate of mercury inside igniting a quick or instant fuse.

So basicsly the bomb will look like a inverted icecream cone with a nub on the end, or even an icecreamcone with a cherry on top, the cherry is the detonator, the scoop of icecream the explosive and the cone the body.

You could potentialy have a dual charge weapon with these too.

A charge in the icecream which propels the cone into the air where a quick fuse causes it to explode a half second after the ball side explodes.

Another item, a cheap tincan or sheet metal device with an explosion inside of course and then filled with a combination of metal fragments and manuer to cause greater casualties.

Another item, clay pots with metal built in them and filled with explosives, the clay shatters and sends the clay shards and metal fragments fliying.

[headquarters]

The Ar15 platforms are just to finicky to be reliably built by hand .( Same as you Paul -got only limited experience but have seen and read some ).Think of the specific tempers of the steels and whatnot you need to make it go.

So I say -manufacture it yourself is most efficient if you use what caliber most prolific in your area.

Is there a cache of 9 mm ? Make cheap SMGs like the Sten.
Someone did make them in the woods of Poland during WWII with hand tools.

If rifle ammo like 5.56 maybe a singleshot .223 bolt or breach loader. Or a Ar 18 or AK variety -whatever is easier to produce.

Or if truly out of options - go for blackpowder weapons that can be made by a cottage industry with cheap materials and inexperienced manpower.

I love this "building the premisses" discussion .Inspiring to go back to the basic plans .

If you can get it - pics of "technicals" -improvised fighting vehicles are always a great addition to a T2K campaign imho .

Also it is what militias would use as spare parts gets rare .

I confess I only have very limited armorer experience, but I wouldn't want to try to reproduce an M-16 in a primitive shop. You'd have better luck with those old hardy Russian SMGs or even an AK-47.

I once read a book (or maybe it was a short story?) where some time travelers went back in time to try to allow the Confederacy to win (no, not Turtledove's superb Guns of the South). What was the war-winning item they took with them? Plans for modern gunpowder, and especially, plans for the Sten SMG. That's a weapon that could be reproduced pretty easily. They introduced it to JEB Stuart as a weapon for his cavalry forces, and an SMG would be excellent for horse-borne forces.

[Targan]

Or a simple cast iron two piece body that screws together, that looks like a "teardrop" shape thus, the heavy explosive end will always hit first and blow.

The fat or bottom end of the teardrop will have a hole about 1 inch in the bottom, a pressure plate will also be there on the outside covering a large portion of the bottom so when it hits the plate slams the fulminate of mercury inside igniting a quick or instant fuse.

So basicsly the bomb will look like a inverted icecream cone with a nub on the end, or even an icecreamcone with a cherry on top, the cherry is the detonator, the scoop of icecream the explosive and the cone the body.

You could potentialy have a dual charge weapon with these too.
Excellent ideas. And that cone shape is also what you need if you arre making shaped charges. Simple anti-armor weapon anyone? Love it.

[Legbreaker]

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them?
Dead simple. Put the grenades in glass or clay jars which will shatter on impact. Pull the pins just before firing.

[pmulcahy11b]

Dead simple. Put the grenades in glass or clay jars which will shatter on impact. Pull the pins just before firing.

The Viet Cong had a similar boobytrap -- they put the grenades inside clods of clay, covered them to look like dirt clods, then put them on roads and trails. GI kicks the clod by accident or on purpose, and BOOM!

[Abbott Shaull]

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

Those guys are getting too close time to break down and move.... George don't forget the tripod this time.....lol

[Legbreaker]

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

That makes no sense. :confused:

[kato13]

That makes no sense. :confused:

I think what he was saying was that by going back to crossbows one is ignoring 400 years of technology.

As far a crossbows go, I can certainly see areas without much of an industrial base going in that direction, but there was a reason those weapons were for the most part abandoned 400 years ago.

I have not had much time recently so this is my first post in this thread. One thing to remember is that Ney York City has the largest port on the East Coast. Millions of tons of war material would have traveled through the area. A portion is going to get stolen and a portion is going to be in the rail yards, on the docks or just loaded onto ships when TDM happens. You also have the lost weapons of the Police/MP and elements of the 85th infantry Division.

IMO NYC is going to have a larger proportion of Military small arms floating around it's populace than most areas of the country. Personally my goals would be to capture and refurbish them.

[Webstral]

I can't remember if I posted this anywhere else, so at the risk of repeating myself I gave the manufacture of small arms within SAMAD (Thunder Empire) some thought. There is a great deal of 5.56mm brass and filled ammo around, plus reloading equipment, courtesy of the Pentagon's Division of Contingency Planning. There is also some 9mm Parabellum and a comparatively large quantity of 7.62x51mm ammo and equipment. Unexpectedly, gangs of Phoenix discovered a train load of .357 Magnum which was abandoned in Phoenix some time in late 1997 or early 1998. No one knows the story behind why such a large shipment of what is essentially civilian handgun ammunition was moving through Phoenix, but one does not look a gift horse in the mouth.

(SAMAD traded the gangs for the ammunition, which opens a whole other can of worms about ethics. During 1999, Huachuca had a bare-bones idea of what was going on in Phoenix, even if the gruesome details were a bit out of focus. There were no illusions that by trading food and other finished goods for the trainload of .357 ammunition and a host of scavenged materials that Huachuca, in effect, was providing material support for Phoenix's armies of the night, Mayors, and Dukes. But I digress...)

The gunsmiths and workshops of SAMAD design a handful of weapons to use the available mix of ammunition. The following notes reflect the status as of early 2001.

The so-called "SKH" is essentially an SKS chambered for 5.56 NATO. The manufacturers use as many stamped parts as possible, given their circumstances. Like the SKS, the SKH is a semi-auto rifle with an integral ten-round magazine and no autofire capability. The stock and all wooden parts are of mesquite. The barrel is somewhat longer than the barrel of the SKS, which compensates somewhat for the limited quality of barrel manufacture SAMAD can manage. Effective range is about 250 meters.

The Huachuca SMG is a copy of the PPsH-41 SMG manufactured by the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War. The Huachuca version is chambered for .357 Magnum, since there is a good deal of it available from 1999 onwards. Some modifications have been made, such as the addition of a forward grip. [Author's note: I have to do some more research on how the .357 brass is going to interact with the bolt face.] The finished product superficially resembles a Thompson SMG.

SAMAD also manufactures a pump-action shotgun based on the Mossberg 500. Stock and forward pistol grip are of mesquite.

A battle rifle based on the Springfield 1903 is also in very limited production. The Huachuca version has some modifications to simplify manufacture. Effective range is reduced somewhat as a consequence of the manufacturing trade-offs. The rifle fires the same 7.62x51mm round as the M60 MG. All wooden parts are of mesquite.

SAMAD also produces a six-shot .357 Magnum revolver as its standard side arm and for the civilian market. (Despite the authoritarian nature of the SAMAD government by 2001, the right of the citizenry to self-defense is recognized. Few can afford one of these revolvers, so carrying one becomes something of a status symbol.)

The long-term goal of manufacturing small arms is the creation of a strong export capacity, in addition to the provision of arms for the forces of SAMAD. Huachuca wants to (re-)equip militias throughout Arizona. Ideally, Huachuca will have something to offer MilGov during the inevitable reconciliation talks. Perhaps even more significantly, around the time that an American Special Operations team is recovering a downed weather satellite in southern Baja California, Constitutionalist forces in California initiate operations to secure the entirety of the Baja. The Second Mexican Civil War offers the Americans the opportunity to pit Mexican factions against each other and possibly replace the existing Mexican government with one that will be much friendlier to the US. Unfortunately, Colorado Springs is not in a position to take advantage of this opportunity. Fort Huachuca is. The provision of small arms and ammunition on any scale will be welcome and (hopefully) remembered by the Constitutionalist government of Mexico.

Webstral

[chico20854]

In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

[jester]

in the 1990s, the us government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 m1 rifles
125,000 m2 carbines
575,000 m14 rifles
650,000 m16 rifles
115,000 m4 carbines
75,000 m1903 rifles
100,000 m1911 pistols
62,000 browning automatic rifles
35,000 m3 submachineguns
14,000 m177 carbines
12,000 m2 machine guns
21,000 m1919 machine guns

this was the result of the post-cold war drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the cold war determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many us army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the us military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and fema stockpiles like the one detailed in allegheny uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the us army 30-06 ammo for garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

Imho.


nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo!

:(

[JHart]

And when they mean destroy, they don't mess around. I saw a show featuring the Anniston Army Depot, and they showed how a weapon is destroyed by throwing the all the parts of an M-16, the barrel and receiver included, into a roller/grinder device that breaks the parts into smaller unusable bits.

[Legbreaker]

And then it gets melted down to make razor blades, or spoons, or drink cans, or....

Sad really. Really, really sad.

[Targan]

Yeah, what a waste.

[neuk]

I think making weapons would be easy for a well orginised community. The task is a skilled metal workers job. You would need the lathes, drill presses etc. Then you would need to power them, that is already covered by the rules. You would have to people producing fuel to power generators, or, the tools directly by an overhead belt drive using a car on blocks and the belt attached to the drive wheels, the engine would idle and the belts would turn. The rest is just gearing the belts (look at an old workshop from 1850-1920's), or a water wheel which is the easier method for reliable regular power. The rest would be having a patern to work from, or the broken item. What becomes hard for the community is the ammount you would produce. 'I want an M16, OK come back in a month.' The stocks you could produce from colapsable designs. Front grips could be shortened or produced like the old thompson submachine gun front pistol grip. You could also go down the recycle way. Barrels for the guns would be just about impossable to make to any high standard, it is not a normal steel (something about the carbon content), so I bars would not work. Unless you used a smooth bore design.

[Legbreaker]

What about plans? It's awfully hard to produce something as technical as an M16 without them.
Far better to stick with simpler designs with greater tolerances (such as the Sten or basic bolt action weapons) in the early years and rely on prewar supplies of the more advanced and complex systems such as belt fed machineguns, assault rifles and so on. Chances are ammunition isn't going to be all that available for the more complex weapons anyway...

[Targan]

What Leg said.

[kalos72]

Are .223 and .308 the same rounds are 5.56 and 7.62Nato rounds, just the civilian versions? If so I can see the logic in making bolt action rifles to those calibers for a bit of standardization at least.

[Legbreaker]

Generally yes.

[neuk]

This is more a case of making a gun, the mechanics is the same regardless of the weapon. If it is a case of not having the skill pool, then you would be taking a barrel of an existing but broken weapon. Then manufacturing a hammer system to fire it. These weapons would be single shot. But not as poor as a Zip gun.

There is little difference between the complexities of a bolt action and say a AK47 (I have left out the M16 because I agree it is a complex weapon) Having seen and stripped AKM’s they are SO simple, and used to ‘play’ with SMLE 7.62 Nato rifles (India conversion from British .303).

If you have the original item I believe any competent person with a set of decent hand tools could over time manufacture any item, using the original as your plan or pattern. History proves this time and time again, will it be as good as the original? No! Will it work most of the time yes, will it jam more often, not except new parts, brake at the worse time, of course. But that can be great fun as the GM to give the players kit that is dodgy at best.

[Webstral]

In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

Great information, Chico. Thanks for doing the leg work. I feel obliged to point out that existing in a storage depot is not the same as widely available for use. Nevertheless, given the number of modern firearms available, I think one could easily make a case for any given organization having access to at least some kind of modern rifle--provided one is willing to trace the path of the weapons from storage to the hands of the owners. The list above includes two million rifles and carbines. This is a lot of hardware, but we should bear in mind that before the nukes fly there are 290 million (give or take) Americans. Setting aside stocks of weapons not destroyed because the Cold War didn't end, the above list is sufficient to provide roughly one American in every 149 or 150 with a modern rifle. Even if these rifles were evenly distributed across the nation, somebody is going to have to go without. Halving the population as of early 2001 doesn't solve the problem because this stockpile of weapons are going to suffer from its own types of attrition. Still, given the sheer numbers of rifles involved, I'd buy off on any well-considered explanation for how a militia gets hold of 1,000 modern rifles after the Exchange.

By the way, the numbers involved make it a lot easier for someone to claim that rifles were set aside during the July-November period in 1997. This is how Fort Huachuca gets most of its hardware. Surely Huachuca isn't the only place in the country where materiel was sent in the event that the worst occurred.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm of the impression that while the US government may have disposed of those weapons, some of the older designs (bolt-actions, semi-autos) where also sold to gunstores for civilian sales. What I'm trying to say is okay, so that's the number they destroyed but how many did they keep and what was the size of the original stockpile?

[Abbott Shaull]

Black powder guns would show up again. Granted not many people make guns the old way, there would be learning curve people would have to learn in making any type of fires arms. Communities that had resources would be able to support or at least add to their arsenal.

Also crossbows that big to fit on tri-pod and unusable, it would probably be better on simple trailer device similar to the 120mm mortar. Now large man portable crossbow could use bi-pod for would be more manageable to use. Anything heavy enough to mounted on the try pod would require several people to move, thus negating any mobility that one would need in order to field such weapons effectively, unless you plan on using this weapon more or less in fixed position.

Crossbows are slow in general. I know there was device found that was used like a magazine on modern rifle were use to speed thing up, but drawing the string back will still take time.

Now in defense, using crossbow, black powder weapons, or even single shot rifles/shotguns limitation can be negated some. Especially if have some extra hands that could reload/rearm the weapon while the shooter fires another round with second or third weapon, or at least pull the cross bow string back....

Honestly, I see regular bows and composite bows, being used more than crossbows for largely mobile forces (raiding force). Especially if they are up against a force with single shot weapons with no magazines.

[jester]

Atcualy under that son of a bitch kolintoon I hope his fuckin stints give out and he dies a horrible death. <yes I met the man and his wife more! Hate is a strong word, but not strong enough!> He ordered that all arms by Federal government that are not in use will be destroyed, rather than sold. There were no exceptions. That goes for military officers and others as well. So you could not have the option to purchase your service pistol that you had carried for an entire career. Same with Law Enforcement too.

And they would not be sold to the open market either! So, a good source of antique weapons in Gov stores like 30-40 Krags, 03 Springfields, M1 Garands and Carbines all get turned into scrap. Even though to sell them to civilians who would undergo a background check and give a decent source of money to the Federal Gov poof gone! What horsecrap! I can honestly say I would never take the oath of allegiance to the gov again. As Eithan Edwards said "A man can only be bound ta one oath at a time."

Yes, my hate is still strong after all these years, but it keeps me warm. And the "darkside" is a good life :)

[chico20854]

I'm of the impression that while the US government may have disposed of those weapons, some of the older designs (bolt-actions, semi-autos) where also sold to gunstores for civilian sales. What I'm trying to say is okay, so that's the number they destroyed but how many did they keep and what was the size of the original stockpile?

The Army disposed of the firearms in three ways:

1) a large shredder at the Anniston Army depot, referred to as "Captain Crunch". Stocks were removed, weapons fed in, and scrap steel emerged.
2) foreign aid. The Estonian Army, for example, fielded M-16A1s marked "Property of US Government" in 2000. A lot of M-16s and M-14s went this way.
3) sales to individuals, through the Division/Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship (a part of the Army, which permitted a civilian to buy a single Garand after extensive marksmanship training & competition) until 1996, when it was spun off into a nonprofit organization, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). CMP reports that it and DCM distributed over 400,000 Garands from 1968 to present. Lots of those, however, were returned to the US Army after retirement by foreign militaries - they had been given as military aid and upon retirement were required to be returned to the U.S. The three most recent batches were returned from Denmark, the Greek Army and, most recently, 18,000 from the Greek Air Force, including several hundred still in the original factory wrapping. How many would be available in a T2k setting is unknown...

[pmulcahy11b]

Are .223 and .308 the same rounds are 5.56 and 7.62Nato rounds, just the civilian versions? If so I can see the logic in making bolt action rifles to those calibers for a bit of standardization at least.

The general differences between the civilian and military versions are the propellant charge and the thickness of the case walls. Military ammunition generally is more powerful than its civilian counterpart due to the composition and amount of its propellant, and most civilian rifles are not actually stressed to fire it without causing damage to the rifle in the long term.

And of course, I will stress that this is a generalization, and like all else, is not always true.

[Legbreaker]

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

[Trooper]

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

[jester]

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks :D Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

[pmulcahy11b]

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks :D Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

Not to mention those magazines that went missing every so often...

[jester]

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way :D

[neuk]

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

1. the police took some into storage.

2. the police stole some and then sold them on. local officer got nicked for this around 12 months ago selling guns taken almost 6-8 years ago, and then destroyed! so what the govenment tells us and what the govenment does are two very different things.

[Legbreaker]

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

I think we had to return about 90%, but as long as it looked right on casual inspection (ie couldn't make the weight up with brass bednobs)...
So, we usually spent 15 minutes clearing the mound followed by a swift echange of sandbags with the gun club. Everyone got what they wanted and a few drinks were passed round.

[m47dragon]

The Anniston, Alabama Army Arsenal was mentioned, but it should be further added that they are but one depot storing thousands of arms and ammunition (we're talking WWI/WWII/Korea/Vietnam surplus arms.) This is also the home of the Civilian Marksmanship Program's South Store where they sell thousands of rifles (M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903 and 1903A3 Springfields and Model of 1917 Enfields) every year to the civilian market...along with millions of rounds of surplus and new ammunition (they also sell .22 target rifles, and used to sell custom match built Ar-15's.) This is just the program's south store...their north store is located at Camp Perry, Ohio (and they've tons of guns there...picked up a beautiful M1 Carbine from them last summer:)) These are what they have in stock...they've been selling rifles for decades so there are tons of rifles already in civilian hands that are chambered for common military calibers.

As far as constructing new ARs...lower receivers can be milled from an aluminum billet if you have modicum skill level. It was mentioned making cast moldings and screwing them together like a clamshell...this has been done by a private company already (and the BATFE shut them down promptly, but that is another story.) If you scan the internet, you will find that lower receivers have been milled from high density plastics, literally made out of plastic cutting boards. The real difficulty will be the upper receiver and barrels, although there are millions in surplus storage that could theoretically be pulled into service. The real problem will probably be transporting pieces from their storage depots to industrial areas. Small parts can be fabricated fairly effectively from other materials.

I like the idea of stamped metal parts...AK receivers can be stamped and bent very easily...weld, screw or rivet. Again, barrels will be the hardest part.

Any cartridge can be loaded with blackpowder versus smokeless...you just have to know the reloading differences and expect your semi-auto and automatics to very quickly become single shot repeaters. Black powder is incredibly caustic and care and maintenance will increase.

Great topic!

[jester]

Thus, I suggested the two substituites:

MINI 14 which can be milled from a smaller piece of metal and poof you have your reciever, tap and thread it for a barrel and screw in the barrel, the trigger assembly is the next major component and then a stock and a magazine and it is ready to go.

AR-18; A stamped alternative to the M16 series. Stamped like the AK, with internal workings akin to the M240, simple, cheap and reliable but close to a M16 none the less.

As for stocks, those are easy, you can make a traditional stock if you had the polymer, a tube style colapsible stock either plastic or metal. Or a fixed tube stock again made from tube stock, and the forgrip, a simple checkered or similiar pattern metal tube and you are good to go. As it said with the M16EZ you could also make woodenstocks for them which I have seen in real life which look pretty good.

[waiting4something]

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

1. the police took some into storage.

2. the police stole some and then sold them on. local officer got nicked for this around 12 months ago selling guns taken almost 6-8 years ago, and then destroyed! so what the govenment tells us and what the govenment does are two very different things.

I can't believe people gave them up so easy.:confused: Personally, I rather die.:)

[kato13]

I can't believe people gave them up so easy.:confused: Personally, I rather die.:)

Mr. Heston would be proud of you :)

[waiting4something]

Mr. Heston would be proud of you :)

Thanks, I know the media wouldn't.:D

[Trooper]

Nice ersatz weapons!

http://ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/33216-volkssturm-small-arms.html

[Brother in Arms]

Kalos
this is an interesting thread though I haven't had a chance to read it all. I am a gunsmith by trade and I can give you my take on the circumstances of armament and firearms manufacture after the twilight war just repost what you would like to know. In reading some of the things you posted I can see you have a basic understanding of firearms manufacture. But one must consider the time and effort that goes into producing firearms.... consider today that most firearms are made using CNC machinery which has more to do with computer operation than knowing how to operate a milling machine.

As for manufacturing M16 type rifles....I wouldn't even attempt it. Build one from exsiting components sure anyone could do and do. Infact AR's are one of the most popular rifles for civillians in the US to build. But to produce one from raw material would be very difficult.

Also Assuming that an M1 would be easy to produce is also incorrect...first of all on an original M1 the reciever is made from a forging and then there are several hundred individual and complex milling process's. Also don't forget about the proper hardness of that milled reciever. When made today they are usually investment cast and then precision milled. LRB of long island makes a modern forged semi-auto only M14 reciever and it costs over a $1000 just for the reciever alone...

Not even getting into how difficult it would be to make a barrel and yes I know people have been doing these sorts of things for hundreds of years but its not easy.

Also there is going to be no shortage of firearms especially not in the US. What there will be a shortage of is ammunition. I own many many firearms but I only posses about 7,000 round of ammunition for my entire collection and that is somewhat unusual. Most people in the US have much less than 1000 rounds on hand for there firearms. I believe military weapons and calibers would be in the Majority not minority just due to the qauntity and availability of ammunition. 5.56x45(.223) 7.62X51(.308) are popular and going to be found in the US. Of course .30-06 is ubiqoutous here also even though is hasn't been used militarily for 40 years.

I think you could arm your militia with many different types of firearms if you are so inclined. If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

[neuk]

I can't believe people gave them up so easy.:confused: Personally, I rather die.:)

Friends of mine waited until the police turned up ate their door. an MP5-A3 puts a very good argument across, lets not forget the the police dog and of course the universal key they have for all doors in case you have lost yours, the seldge hammer.

No what happened was wrong on so many fronts, it has not stopped the illgeal weapons from being there, and a SMLE is so much more fun! Also England has a lot of guns for head of pop, same as English police are armed just they are better hidden, and not so many as the USA or Europe.

An English A.R.V. Armed Responce Vehicle, has two officers, two MP5-A3's and 9mm pistols, CS gas, and stun guns. The training at county level is done by SAS trained firearm officers to a very high level. Responce to pretty much anywhere is around 20 mins with Helicopter support, just for you Merc or Spec ops fans

[Legbreaker]

If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

Lets hear it. After all, isn't sharing thoughts and opinions what this forum is all about?

[kato13]

If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

Seconded

[waiting4something]

Friends of mine waited until the police turned up ate their door. an MP5-A3 puts a very good argument across, lets not forget the the police dog and of course the universal key they have for all doors in case you have lost yours, the seldge hammer.

No what happened was wrong on so many fronts, it has not stopped the illgeal weapons from being there, and a SMLE is so much more fun! Also England has a lot of guns for head of pop, same as English police are armed just they are better hidden, and not so many as the USA or Europe.

An English A.R.V. Armed Responce Vehicle, has two officers, two MP5-A3's and 9mm pistols, CS gas, and stun guns. The training at county level is done by SAS trained firearm officers to a very high level. Responce to pretty much anywhere is around 20 mins with Helicopter support, just for you Merc or Spec ops fans

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children.:rolleyes: Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them.
I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire.:hanged: Sorry for your loss of freedom man.:(

[kato13]

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children.:rolleyes: Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them. I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire.:hanged: Sorry for your loss of freedom man.:(

This is edging into the realm of real world politics, which is often a hot button issue. Britain has never had the connections to guns that the US does, so the perspective of the average Briton could be vastly different from that of the average American gunowner.

Here are a couple of older threads which are tangentally connected to this one
Privately owned weapons in Europe?
What happened to all those guns?

[kato13]

Another thread form that past which might be related to this one

Post-TDM Arms Manufacture

[neuk]

This is edging into the realm of real world politics, which is often a hot button issue. Britain has never had the connections to guns that the US does, so the perspective of the average Briton could be vastly different from that of the average American gunowner.

Here are a couple of older threads which are tangentally connected to this one
Privately owned weapons in Europe?
What happened to all those guns?

Sorry this is not the thread to discuss this so i will try not to rabbit on. I have read the old threads above. There is a big gun culture in England, but it is very quite, after a number of shoot outs where the police rightly killed the bad guys the press is against all guns. OK I have a number of friends who shoot full bore rifle, like SMLE's .303 or Indian/Pakistan converted 7.62. .22 rifles are very much liked and common in this sport both bolt and semi auto(the only gun you are aloud in semi auto) 7.62 bolt action used for hunting ( deer stalking is BIG money in Scotland and the North East) Whinchester carbines in .38 are beloved, because the police hate them for there size and mag. Ammo is the hardest thing to come by, with each gun having to have its place on your lisence and diferent calibers needing more permits. The most you are aloud (to my knowledge) is around 1000 rounds. However in England you can have all the component parts to make the ammo with out a lisence! It only becomes against the law when and if you put the parts together with out the lisence. The bigest caliber that i know of locally is a .50 cal single shot rifle used in compeation, the police are as mad as hell about it. Within around a 10 mile radius of where I live there are some 15 rifles that I know of and three people who press their own ammo from reused brass.

[kato13]

There is a big gun culture in England, but it is very quite, after a number of shoot outs where the police rightly killed the bad guys the press is against all guns.

Didn't mean to suggest that Briton did not have a strong gun culture. Sorry if it came off that way. We Americans are kinda assumed to be a little more gun focused than most other nations.

As always it is a shame when a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

[Rainbow Six]

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.


Purely in a T2k context, there is a possibility that handguns would never have been banned in the UK. The handgun ban came into effect in 1997, as a direct result of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre.

[kato13]

Purely in a T2k context, there is a possibility that handguns would never have been banned in the UK. The handgun ban came into effect in 1997, as a direct result of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre.

Dunblane massacre

Since I Googled it I expect others would have. I remembered it but not the details.

[Targan]

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children.:rolleyes: Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them.
I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire.:hanged: Sorry for your loss of freedom man.:(

The police in places like the UK and Australia are armed because despite the law abiding populace largely having been disarmed of their firearms, the criminals still have ready access to guns. Unlike the USA, the citizens of the UK and Australia don't have any fundamental constitutional right to bear arms so it was a relatively simple matter in both those countries to legislate for most private gun ownership to be illegal.

I strongly suspect that the overall number of privately owned firearms in my country remains at a large fraction of what it was before the really draconian gun laws were introduced, the only difference now is that most privately owned firearms here are illegally owned. I'm not a police officer or a statistician so this is my opinion only but I have anecdotal evidence. And as well, a number of times in the past decade I have been offered a variety of guns for purchase "under the table".

Alot of people here were pretty miffed when the really strict gun laws came in but in Australian culture there has never really been rabid pro-gun lobby, well not loudly in public anyway. For most Australians Charlton Heston's "from my cold, dead hands" speech would be considered over the top, even a bit frightening. Different cultures, different norms, different forms of expression.

[Rainbow Six]

Dunblane massacre

Since I Googled it I expect others would have. I remembered it but not the details.

Thanks Kato....

My bad...I should have elaborated... :)

[pmulcahy11b]

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way :D

You have no idea where my mind went at first when I saw "BFA"...

[pmulcahy11b]

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks :D Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

When I was in, the attitude among the supply pogues was, "Guess you didn't need all those blanks, pyro, chemlights, etc. We'll allot you less next year." So definitely, everything "got used."

[Webstral]

When I was in, the attitude among the supply pogues was, "Guess you didn't need all those blanks, pyro, chemlights, etc. We'll allot you less next year." So definitely, everything "got used."

This attitude is amazingly widespread and amazingly wasteful. I've gone out on many a training exercise in which the unused pyro, blanks, and whatnot are simply consumed at the end of the exercise so that next cycle's ration won't shrink. As a young lieutenant, I got a serious chewing of my fourth point of contact for bringing a half-dozen belts of 7.62 blanks back to the armory. I thought I was conserving resources. What I was really doing was telling the battalion S3 that my company didn't need so much; my CO was hopping mad about it.

Changing this type of thinking requires senior leadership to change their minds about how supply is run. In Twilight: 2000, every round is going to be counted when it comes to training. Simply burning up ammunition to keep the issue of ammunition the same won't be an option. I suppose, then, all it takes is a limited nuclear war for the resources to take on value.

Webstral

[neuk]

[QUOTE=kato13;18808]Didn't mean to suggest that Briton did not have a strong gun culture. Sorry if it came off that way.

You did not, as a gamer for a lot of years and a GM of twilight for the last 20(ish), i believe that my game gets better by talking to other gamers, in the North East of England where I live the gaming community has shrunk over the years.

I have never given much thought in my games for where the 'new' guns come from. Thankyou to all for making me think about topics like this.