Electricity, and how do you make it.

[neuk]

I was thinking about how you would make power in the Twilight world.

The easiest way I could think of would be getting a car alternator and attaching it to some thing. This is based on most families having at least 1 car maybe 2. They cannot all be wrecked, and fuel is a thing of the past for most people.

Wind, a wind turbine could be made simple for any village. Attach the alternator with a belt drive system

Water, water wheel is a steady provider of power which hopefully would always be there. This could also be used to power other tools at the same time. Attach the alternator with a wheel held there by gravity?

The question I have is would 24v (car power source) be useful enough to power anything?

[headquarters]

In Bosnia they hooked little paddle wheels in rivers and streams up to dynamos to run small appliances on during the war .

They ran lighting , televisions and vcrs and radio etc on it . Not reliable -and not fancy -but they could charge batteries and see movies from: America - very good country yes

I was thinking about how you would make power in the Twilight world.

The easiest way I could think of would be getting a car alternator and attaching it to some thing. This is based on most families having at least 1 car maybe 2. They cannot all be wrecked, and fuel is a thing of the past for most people.

Wind, a wind turbine could be made simple for any village. Attach the alternator with a belt drive system

Water, water wheel is a steady provider of power which hopefully would always be there. This could also be used to power other tools at the same time. Attach the alternator with a wheel held there by gravity?

The question I have is would 24v (car power source) be useful enough to power anything?

[Webstral]

Spin a magnet past a metal coil, and you have electricity. In some ways, Twilight: 2000 is an engineer's dream world because cost effectiveness takes on a radically different meaning after the breakdown of the centralized system. For some applications, electricity is so critical that many ideas that today would be cost-ineffective (and/or ethically dubious) can be tried.

Webstral

[jester]

Take those whom you defeat in battle and put them in a giant spinning wheel like a hampster, and make them run ta spin the generator! That'll give you power!

Or, there is always bike power like Gilligans Island!

[Webstral]

Take those whom you defeat in battle and put them in a giant spinning wheel like a hampster, and make them run ta spin the generator! That'll give you power!

Or, there is always bike power like Gilligans Island!

The bottom rung for EPW and criminals in SAMAD is the bike line. Prisoners are fed a given number of calories based on electricity generated by pedaling stationary bicycles. Don't pedal, don't eat. Very few last six months, although in fairness few are sentenced to more than sixty days on the bicycles at any one time.

Actually, the very bottom rung is voluntary euthanasia. A number of people consigned to the bicycles choose this route.

Webstral

[jester]

The bottom rung for EPW and criminals in SAMAD is the bike line. Prisoners are fed a given number of calories based on electricity generated by pedaling stationary bicycles. Don't pedal, don't eat. Very few last six months, although in fairness few are sentenced to more than sixty days on the bicycles at any one time.

Actually, the very bottom rung is voluntary euthanasia. A number of people consigned to the bicycles choose this route.

Webstral

Taking the cowards way out, the uh, cowards! :D

[headquarters]

The bottom rung for EPW and criminals in SAMAD is the bike line. Prisoners are fed a given number of calories based on electricity generated by pedaling stationary bicycles. Don't pedal, don't eat. Very few last six months, although in fairness few are sentenced to more than sixty days on the bicycles at any one time.

Actually, the very bottom rung is voluntary euthanasia. A number of people consigned to the bicycles choose this route.

Webstral

I am assuming the wheels have been removed..

Not spectator friendly Web.

Isnt there a "Circle of Blood" where sharp objects are randomly dropping into the cage for the people locked in there to use against eachother in front of stands with hundreds of howling fans chewing on spiced grilled rat on a stick ?:confused:

[Jason]

Put Lance Armstrong on one of your bikes, I saw on TV he can power the whole espn campus :) .

There are tons of ways to generate electricity that have been tried through the years, many of which are not optimally efficient, but would work in the T2k world. http://www.energyboom.com/emerging/top-5-very-strange-ways-make-renewable-power

My personal favorite--#3 Poop

It ain’t pretty. And apparently neither are Rwandan jails, overcrowded since the Rwandan genocide. But they did win the Ashden Award for sustainable energy in 2005 by using prisoners’ feces to create combustible methane biogas that can be used for cooking.

The process requires putting human or animal waste into a "digester," which ferments it using bacteria to release methane gas that is captured and burned as fuel. The technology was developed at the Kigali Institute of Science, Technology and Management and they say it has reduced the annual prison wood fuel bill of $1 million by 60%.

Plus, it gives human powered energy a whole new meaning!

It’s not only human feces that are being used, though. San Francisco is turning doogie droppings into biofuel, Riverside, California is using cow manure to create home energy and Minnesota is using poultry litter. Everybody’s dooing it!


The thing I always remember about electricity came from an interview I saw with an electrical engineer after a major power failure here in the US a number of years ago. He said that the electric companies were good at getting power where it is needed, and providing an uninterrupted flow of power 99.999% of the time, but, no one really knows completely how electricity on a works on a fundamental level. We all take it for granted, and I thought that was interesting.

[kato13]

As with most things in the t2k world I would try to go for recovery rather than construction of new infrastructure.

From my maps section of my gaming site (http://games.juhlin.com).

Renewable power sources (Wind/Geothermal/Waste Gas/ etc)
http://games.juhlin.com/maps/elements_frame.html?marker_type=12&map_type=country

Hydro Power sources
http://games.juhlin.com/maps/elements_frame.html?marker_type=5&map_type=country

My next map will have all fuel fired plants as well.

[General Pain]

spin a magnet past a metal coil, and you have electricity. In some ways, twilight: 2000 is an engineer's dream world because cost effectiveness takes on a radically different meaning after the breakdown of the centralized system. For some applications, electricity is so critical that many ideas that today would be cost-ineffective (and/or ethically dubious) can be tried.

Webstral

go slaverism!!! ;)

[avantman42]

The question I have is would 24v (car power source) be useful enough to power anything?

Civilian cars (at least here in the UK) tend to be 12V. Lorries & military vehicles are usually 24V.

To answer the question, though: many things could be run on 12V or 24V, but may need some slight modifications. Most small electrical equipment drops the mains supply voltage down to 12V or less, and turns the AC supply to DC. So, to run a radio, for example, you'd need to make a way to connect the 12V supply to the low-voltage output of the radio's internal power supply.

Dropping the supply voltage down to the required voltage is easy - a resistor wired in series will do the job, though it'll need to be quite hefty and won't be very efficient.

Note that anything that uses a cathode ray tube (like a TV) requires a higher voltage - the power supply in a typical TV would have one outputs of around 100V and other low-voltage outputs, say 5-12V.

I don't know much about white goods like fridges, but I suspect they'd need something close to the normal mains supply to function. It may be possible (but not particularly easy in a T2K setting) to step up a 12-24V AC supply to 120/230V.

[jester]

They do have a power converter that allows one to switch from AC to DC, and adjust from 12 to 24 volt as well. These items would be found at boating and RV stores where one can find all maner of appliances designed for those types of craft. I personaly would go with items from the boat stores as they tend to be more weatherproof and durable although a bit more pricey.

[avantman42]

They do have a power converter that allows one to switch from AC to DC, and adjust from 12 to 24 volt as well. These items would be found at boating and RV stores where one can find all maner of appliances designed for those types of craft. I personaly would go with items from the boat stores as they tend to be more weatherproof and durable although a bit more pricey.

In today's world, it's pretty simple to convert AC to DC and vice-versa, but in the T2K post-EMP world, I suspect it'd be more difficult, especially as the boat stores are likely to have been looted.

It's a bit more difficult (bit still entirely possible) to convert a DC voltage to a higher voltage. With AC you just need a transformer, with DC you need some fancy electronics (years ago, I saw a circuit to convert a 9V supply to 200V), but again, I suspect it'd be much more difficult in the T2K world.

[Cdnwolf]

Went to Casino Windsor today and along the route all I saw was fields of wind turbines and was amazed at how many there were.

[Olefin]

Well there are lots of ways

1) Use water power - many old mill towns are built by running water because they used the water to power their machines. And there are lots of hydroelectric dams in this country. My own home town has an emergency source of power that is basically water drive that can be used to keep the power on if anything happened to the main power lines - was still maintained and able to be used until a few years ago - in Twilight 2000 they would have still had it

2) solar - there were lots of places, especially out west, that by the mid 90's were using solar panels to generate power - they would continue to do so in a Twilight 2000 situation - you could see a run on them after the Soviet China war started by survivalists who were getting ready for the end - and also by government agencies as back up power

3) coal fired powerhouses - especially in PA, WV and KY - lots of coal and in many places just about next door to the electrical generators - and not all of them would have been hit by EMP - especially considering almost no nukes set off near them -

4) Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome - "Bartertown runneth on pig shit" - have a feeling someone is going to remember just how much power you can get out of methane from animals from that movie - and its makes so much nice fuel as well

5) wind power - I remember the commercials back in the 80's and 90's for backyard windmills that could generate enough power to run your house and sell some back to the power company - EMP wouldnt do squat to them - willing to bet New America and other fun survivalist groups would have bought as many as they could before the Thanksgiving Massacre

6) Nuclear power stations - like the one MilGov has going near Colorado Springs - and you know that some of them would have successfully shut down and then restarted after the Massacre - sorry but not every station in the US is on line all the time - and there are lots of them in places that didnt get hit

Three Mile Island for instance - not even close to any nukes - closest ones were either near Hagerstown (the Camp David and Frederick nukes), DC, or Philly - all way too far for EMP effects to have damaged it - and they could have taken components from the shut down power unit to fix any damage to the one that works - and I am betting the governor (who has troops to keep order in the Harrisburg area according to Allegheny Rising) would have made damn sure that place stayed safe and unlooted

[Olefin]

That is one reason I dont sign on to the game's description of those with mechanical skills and other knowledge being so rare - if anything they would be highly prized and if anyone is getting into the safe zones it would be them - look at Lucifer's Hammer for instance - when survivors get to the gates of the Stronghold they dont just let anyone in - but if you say mechanic, electrician, engineer, or doctor those gates swing open

So the idea of almost no electricity generation is not realistic - large scale power generation over whole countries no way - but lots of local pockets ranging from a house or compound to areas as big as a few counties - definitely would see that - especially the further you get from where the nukes landed and where things like wind, solar, water and coal are available - and where you have operating nuke stations like Colorado Springs and Harrisburg (basically a 99% chance they kept Three Mile Island going) then you would have power for sure

[rcaf_777]

There is also a Wood Burning Generator

The tech is really old dating back to 1870's, many vechicles in the UK er converted durring WWII when gas was in short supply

I have attached a paper that FEMA published back in 1989 which shows people how to build one at home, see last link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_gas_generator

http://www.motherearthnews.com/renewable-energy/wood-powered-generator-zmaz81jazraw.aspx#axzz37jba9oM7

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Construction_of_a_Simplified_Wood_Gas_Generator_Fo r_Fueling_Internal_Combustion_Engines_in_a_Petrole um_Emergency.pdf

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Part of the problem - and I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating - with nuclear power plants is they don't just "sit there" if left unattended. Spent nuclear fuel is kept in a cooling pond, and despite the name "spent" it is still quite active, just not enough so to generate electricity. It is active enough to boil off the water keeping it cool, so that water must be circulated (and more water must be pumped in).

When that water boils off, you now have a mini-Chernobyl at every unattended nuclear facility adding to the already quite radioactive landscape around it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

With the nuke plant issue aside, once you have an alcohol fuel infrastructure established, every mom and pop in suburbia who has a riding mower or regular lawn mower (and a car or access to one of the millions of abandoned ones) has a generator or three handy: Mower engine + utility belt + car alternator + a few 2x4s = generator.

As to what a car alternator can power, it's already been noted above, but the last time we had a long power outage my in-laws used an AC adapter plugged in to one of their rather anemic japanese sedans to power their TV and a laptop and keep their cell phone charged.

I imagine if you had a single dedicated "mowerator" you could run a small 'fridge, too...

[Olefin]

Thats why I dont see the techs just abandoning the nuke plants unless they are in areas where they had fallout - and many plants have small backup generators made to keep those pumps working - and if anything probably didnt have mobs all over them pillaging and wrecking it was probably nuke plants - after Three Mile Island and Chernobyl no one would want to wreck a nuclear plant no matter how crazy they were

which is not to say they kept the plant on line - but you could see dedicated techs with locals helping out (who really dont want a cloud of fallout all over their houses) making just enough fuel to keep those pumps working - could be the source of an adventure - you get hired by such a group and promised spare parts or fuel or whatever to get critically needed parts for their pumps to avoid a meltdown - that just happen to be in a closely guarded town held by a marauder group

Also one thing to keep in mind - are you talking about a short term source of electricity like car batteries that eventually must be recharged using fuel to do so - or are you talking about long term electrical generation using solar panels or windmills or water power?

[mikeo80]

I tried to find a thread that was on this forum about a year or so ago. We were discussing using auto alternators and lawn mowers. Many lawn mowers (mine included) use the pull string style of ignition. TO the best of my understanding, this type of engine is EMP proof. So IF you can get gasoline, and IF you rig up the alternator, you can come up with some electricity.

At which point you can worry about the DC to AC problems, voltage problems, etc. All of which have been discussed above.

My $0.02

Mike

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that who knows how many people may have bought portable generators in the lead up to the war. They were available back in the 90's - and with the war scare you could have a lot of them in private hands in the US and Canada.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thats why I dont see the techs just abandoning the nuke plants unless they are in areas where they had fallout - and many plants have small backup generators made to keep those pumps working - and if anything probably didnt have mobs all over them pillaging and wrecking it was probably nuke plants - after Three Mile Island and Chernobyl no one would want to wreck a nuclear plant no matter how crazy they were

which is not to say they kept the plant on line - but you could see dedicated techs with locals helping out (who really dont want a cloud of fallout all over their houses) making just enough fuel to keep those pumps working - could be the source of an adventure - you get hired by such a group and promised spare parts or fuel or whatever to get critically needed parts for their pumps to avoid a meltdown - that just happen to be in a closely guarded town held by a marauder group
Personally, I do not believe this is likely. Given that human nature is to "survive", I can see the people living near a nuclear power station relocating to get away from the potential danger. The majority of people don't know how a gas or coal fired powerplant operates and they don't care enough in normal life to bother to find out. There's even less who understand how a nuclear powerplant operates and in their ignorance they would see such a plant as a timebomb. Their inclination would be to abandon the area.

I think that the only reason they would stay is if someone with perceived authority (e.g. a local politician or a rep from the government) or a warlord/dictator "encouraged" them to stay. I strongly doubt that people would just "come together" to keep any powerplant operating, they would have to be shown that there is a very tangible benefit for not only staying in the area but also helping to keep the plant operating (or a lack of reward of even punishment if they choose the opposite course).

The fear of nuclear power is still prevalent even today and after the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant was ruined by the tidal wave in 2011, we can see just how people react to the presence of damaged nuclear powerplants. During the course of a global war in which nuclear weapons are used, I can't imagine many people at all would be happy to live near any nuclear power station - not unless some organized group took control and encouraged people to do so because it takes a hell of a lot of resources to run and maintain any powerplant let alone a nuclear one. For instance, in a large number of plants, the pumps that circulate the cooling water use diesel fuel, the only way they'll keep operating after the diesel runs out is if someone with the know-how converts them to alcohol or electric or someone can trade for a steady supply of diesel - that alone takes organization on a level that most survivors won't be thinking about... unless there is some sort of leader/group in charge and they have the resources necessary to allow it and even then for a group numbering less than a hundred adults, it probably isn't worth the resources to do it.

[schnickelfritz]

I saw an article in the local paper a few years back where there are Cat gensets running off of the gas collected from landfills west of Chicago. I believe the capacity at one site was 35,000 homes. They had a nice photo of several lined up in a row. Use only what you need, keep some for ready spares and for spare parts, and there you go.

For years after a restoration the Hotel Baker on the Fox River in St. Charles IL had restored power from a water turbine at the dam (about an 8-10 foot drop, the Fox isn't deep around here) right next to the building. They had a setup showing what it was generating that you could view from the street...cool olde-timey gauges and dials. It's been a while since I looked, but I'll check into it.

For years Cat and Kohler (amongst others) have made trailer amounted portable generators that fit in a 40 foot trailer. I see these being used to keep essential services online like the at least some of the local hospitals. If you are out in the middle of nowhere and can keep enough juice going to make and store basic medicines like described in Free City and Armies of the Night, you are a beacon of hope. Better plan to defend it when the word gets out though...

Dave

-Dave

[Olefin]

Also remember that many nuclear power plants were located by rivers and oceans for a reason - in a worst case you could see them using that to cool the spent rods - but at a cost of contaminating the river, lake, seacoast, etc..

and again another reason for Three Mile Island being operational or at the least the rods kept properly cooled - as Allegheny Uprising says the governor is in Harrisburg with a force of troops to keep the area under control - which woudlnt have happened if it had melted down and spread radiation over the entire area (its basically right next to Harrisburg)

that implies either a successful shutdown and the spent rods are being properly cooled - or its operational in some way

[raketenjagdpanzer]

You know, speaking of generators...I think about this periodically as I drive around here. Lift Stations have generators to run the pumps; I would think if you went through a completely abandoned neighborhood, one of those would be fine pickings...only downside is they're powered by LP gas which would be scarce.

(For the unfamiliar, a lift station is a pump that works against gravity and keeps sewage moving in the right direction through the lines)

[bobcat]

well in many of my T2K and MP campaigns i have at least one town with a junkyard where they strip the alternators from every vehicle they can and build either a wind farm or water wheel to power the town. (its a good Macguffin for sneaking in higher tech levels to resupply at in Morrow Project)

i could easily see something like that (or even a coal-steam powerplant) built in my area following TEOTWAWKI with the college nearby and the metal fittings factory in town with junk yards and abandoned coal mines dotting the landscape.

[Olefin]

You just have to think where would power be generated and think 19th century as to anything above isolated small scale generation

water power

wind power

coal fired generators near areas that still have relatively easy to get at deposits

with the occasional solar powered source (remember they were relatively rare in 1995 versus today), surviving nuclear stations (all with pretty big garrisons around) and diesel generators that can either burn unrefined fuel straight from nearby wells or that are combined with a surviving refinery near operational wells with much of the power being used to keep that refinery alive (most likely the situation in places like Robinson IL and Oklahoma where MilGov still has operational refineries

[rcaf_777]

Steam turbine generator - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_turbine

Maytag Battery Charger - http://www.otherpower.com/maytag.html