Operation Omega and MILGOV

[kalos72]

I was sitting here going over my storyline and making adjustments and tweaks and such and it occurred to me.

How the HELL would MILGOV feed 50000 extra troops landing in Norfolk in the dead of winter? How could they deploy them all across the county? Arm them? This is where canon REALLY REALLY disappointed me...

Perhaps they would just let them retire?

[Legbreaker]

Well, they have known they were coming for a few months....

It is however a good point. I think the implied situation is the majority of them were discharged. Some were sent to the middle east as reinforcements (individuals rather than whole units) and some were sent to units within the US for the same purpose.

A number, mainly MPs, were sure to have been used in and around Norfolk, at least for a month or two while things were sorted out. Some might even have found their way to Korea (how exactly I don't know, but something worth thinking about).

[Webstral]

Operation Omega may have been planned well in advance. Also, or alternatively, MilGov may never have intended to maintain the force at Norfolk for any length of time. The plan may have been to distribute available troops throughout the Atlantic/Gulf Coast region. We know from Howling Wilderness that 78th Infantry Division in New Jersey and an infantry unit in the Memphis area receive Operation Omega reinforcements. The original plan may have been to distribute troops across First and Fifth US Armies. A thousand riflemen here and there could have made a difference. Concentrated in priority areas, the Omega troops might have changed everything.

Webstral

[kalos72]

I understand where they might have been put to work. My concern is the logic behind the way canon describes the whole scenario.

They give multiple examples of how desperate MILGOV forces are on the East Coast, how MILGOV isnt able to resupply or give any support to those units.

But then they have the food and equipment to move 15000 men to Alabama, 15000 to Mass and another 15000 to Texas?

I guess I am looking for other alternatives...

[Legbreaker]

Who's to say all ships ended up in Norfolk?
It's quite probable that those slated (or volunteered) to go to the middle east went straight there either around the bottom of Africa or landing in Israel and marching across land.

Any units intended for the mid west may have landed somewhere on the Caribbean coastline - that's upwards of 5-6 thousand mouths (more or less) that don't even see Norfolk let alone land there.

I believe Howling Wilderness is written as of sometime in 2001, after the troops have landed (I'll need to check later). If so, then the numbers and situation described therein should include the Omega troops.

[kalos72]

Ok some going directly to the Middle East I can buy, makes sense.

A few thousand troops landing some place on the Gulf Coast without an established base to land at? Not so much.

I guess I could buy say half going back out to support the Middle East units...a quarter being dismissed and the last 10k or so being reassigned to local units. Still seems very poorly thought out...

I am sure I am not the only one to thought this out, what have some of you come up with to explain this? Perhaps even details on how you spread the troops or equipment out and such...

[Webstral]

Kalos, you may not be getting a lot of bites on this one because a) the Omega angle indeed has been considered in great detail by others and b) it's a sore spot on this forum still, I think. The DC Group did some extensive work on Operation Omega, and the reception of this work led to the largest blow-out in quite some time.

There are a few factors to consider before you completely dismiss Operation Omega, some of which you have mentioned.

1) Not everyone was supposed to go straight home. The RDF Sourcebook allows for Europe-based characters to get to the Gulf as a result of Operation Omega. How many were expected to go to the Gulf is a legitimate question.

2) Many troops were expected to leave the service. Personally, I think any who would trade a meal ticket for the uncertainties of post-Exchange America is out of his mind, but I'm not in the shoes of any of the troops returning from Europe.

3) Maintaining logistical support is a different matter than moving people once. The Marines and the Airborne forces face this problem without a nuclear exchange to gum up the works. Getting bodies to a locale requires far less effort than keeping those bodies supplied with all the necessities, even when those necessities are neatly stacked at the applicable rail head, runway, or pier. The inverse of this truism is that whereas MilGov in late 2000 may be unable to maintain a reliable distribution of supplies to its East Coast and Gulf Coast cantonments, moving people once requires far less than reliably delivering food, fuel, ammunition, etc.

4) Mindset matters. If MilGov is determined to go ahead with Omega, torpedoes be damned, then the orders are going to be issued. More than one campaign in the modern world has been conducted with terse instructions to the logisticians to "make it work." It's possible that SACLANT told Colorado Springs that they didn't have enough food in Norfolk for fifty thousand Omega troops, only to be told that the operation was going ahead anyway. The Joint Chiefs may have decided, with cold logic, that if moving fifty thousand Americans from Europe resulted in a few thousand casualties en route to the ports, a few thousand reinforcements for CENTCOM, ten thousand replacements for CONUS, and losses to mustering out, desertion, and starvation for the rest, then CONUS would be ten thousand troops stronger than before Omega started. It's not pretty, but then we do devote ourselves to a game in which half the global population is dead and most of the rest scratching for a living.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

May 2001 - that's the date Howling Winderness brings the timeline up to.
Virgina: The eastern part of the state was hit fairly hard, but the damage was mostly restricted to the coastal areas. Despite severe damage to the port facilities at Norfolk and Newport News, the area around these communities currently supports a small (and shrinking) Milgov enclave, consisting mostly of troops brought back from Eruope in late 2000. In March of 2001, the enclave was ordered to evacuate and move to Fort Dix using all available transport. None have arrived as of 1 April 2001.

Refering back to Howling Wilderness again we can see that only the 78th infantry division is in the area and numbers just 900 men - 800 of which were European reinforcements.

We can also see that the Norfolk community consists of mostly European evacuees and has been shrinking for some time. We're also told desertion from the enclave is high and the communication with Milgov has been cut off for several weeks since being ordered to move to Fort Dix and reinforce the 78th.

From this we can assume the total military strength of ex-european troops remaining cannot be much more than a few thousand. Any more than that and the orders would probably have been along the lines of "move to Fort Dix and take command of" or "assimilate the 78th".

[kalos72]

Why would MILGOV give up Norfolk anyways? There are a dozen or so military bases in that area...and the MAJOR section of the port seems intact if not relatively devoid of support buildings or personnel. :(

If they move out, I am moving in. Can you squat on a military reservation? :)

[Legbreaker]

FOOD!!!

Or more accurately, the extreme lack of it. With the coming of Spring 2001 is was blindingly obvious that there simply wouldn't be the food stocks available to support the enclaves in the area. A few might stay on living on fish and whatever the parched soil produces, but the vast majority was forced to flee or starve.

[kalos72]

I understand where you are coming from Leg, I do. But if food was so scarce, what the hell did MILGOV expect to do with the returning soldiers?

Giving that Schrike timeline, perhaps MILGOV was counting on the fall harvest in 2000 to cover the added strain of the returning soldiers. Once the truth was apparent, there wasnt enough of it to go around, they gave the order to move.

That makes sence...

Also supports the desertion/retired aspects people have posted here...

[Legbreaker]

You are absolutely correct. All plans would have been made based on expected climatic conditions. Nobody expected the drought and how it would impact obn the east coast.
One thuing to keep in mind is most cites today are only a few meals from starvation. Imagine how that applies in 2001.

[Cdnwolf]

Why Norfolk? I mean it was hit by a few nukes and the port a melted pile of sludge? I would think a more minor port advantageous to the Milgov...

Also there is no mention of the troops going to the Middle East or anywhere else... and once more the issue of fuel supplies rears its ugly head when the only fuel available is from a drifting tanker....

"Accordingly, SACEUR, the Supreme Allied Command, Europe
(or what’s left of it) has decided to evacuate all USAEUR (US
Army, Europe) forces from the continent and return them to
America."
The fleet consists
of a hodge-podge collection of container ships, general cargo
ships and tankers (converted to passenger service by rough
wooden constructions in their holds), excursion ships, and
smaller vessels (river boats and channel ferries) felt to be large
enough to be able to survive the crossing.
An oil tanker, found drifting at sea off Borkum Island in the
North Sea, is being tapped to provide the fuel for the crossing
(crude oil can be burned in diesel engines, but it doesn‘t do them
much good).

[pmulcahy11b]

My last game before I went on active duty, the GM offered me an out, Everyone was going for Op Omega; I chose to have my character go to the gulf. I gave my character sheet to the GM just in case the other PCs ran into my character in the Gulf or somewhere along the line, but I effectively and neatly took my character out of the game.

[Cdnwolf]

FYI What a 1M nuke bomb will do to Norfolk and the port facilities.

[kalos72]

RDF Sourcebook as well as Howling Wilderness both note troops moving to the Middle East as well as Norfolk being a major MILGOV enclave.

Now since there were like 10 ships MAX according to canon's version of Operation Omega, I guess a fully functioning port doesn't do much good after all. Granted I dont follow canon much but its still published at least...

Those are thermal effects, overpressure would indicate only window/light building damage at the Naval port itself, although the area would be a shambles at least based on the fire damage and such I would think.

[Legbreaker]

Now since there were like 10 ships MAX according to canon's version...
Why do you say that and what is it based on?

[kalos72]

Ok I am going off what the original Operation Omega details implied. I dont believe there were any SOLID number given to limit this though.

I dont want to argue the navies line again, I read that thread, it wasnt purdy. :P

[kato13]

Why do you say that and what is it based on?

Yeah I agree, I had always assume at least 50-100 ships or varying sizes. Maybe 10 that require a really deep port, but not ten total.

[kalos72]

Either way, once that oil tanker is empty, those ships are sitting reminders of what they DONT have. FUEL!

A military port either way isnt very important I dont think...

[Targan]

FYI What a 1M nuke bomb will do to Norfolk and the port facilities.

I'm happy to be corrected but from memory wasn't Norfolk only targeted with one nuclear warhead, and that malfunctioned/mis-targeted and detonated in the water somewhere out in Chesapeake Bay? I'm pretty sure that the port facilities in and around Norfolk were damaged by the resulting tsunami, not by nuclear blast.

[kalos72]

I know Mayport had a 'near miss" but I haven't ready anything bout Norfolk being in the same boat. I could be wrong though... :)

[Legbreaker]

50,000 people on just 10 ships means a LOT of very close "friendships" developing! Even if you could find 10 ships each capable of holding an average of 5,000 people there's not a lot of space left for the necessities of life such as food, water, oxygen, etc...

I believe it's also mentioned in Going Home that even though the general perception was there wasn't enough space for everyone, there was plenty of room for all.

The RMS Queen Mary II is unable to carry enough fresh water to cater for it's passengers and crews needs for the relatively short hop across the Atlantic today. It is equipped with several desalination plants to make the crossing possible without everyone dying of thirst halfway.

So, it's not just space for people and their possessions which needs to be taken into acount, but their needs to remain alive along the way and, hopefully, for a period after debarkation.

[kalos72]

Either way...

A large Naval port to support a Navy with no fuel might not be such a concern. While feeding that Navy is more pressing at this stage.

[Legbreaker]

While there might not be much fuel, there should be enough to keep one of the more important vessels going for a while. It's doubtful they'd go very far, but would be a useful reserve force "just in case".

[kalos72]

Your missing the discussion point Leg. We are talking about how important a demolished Norfolk Naval Yard would be to the Enclave compared to moving to an area where they can feed themselves.

Regardless of the size and specifics of a fleet, food would be top priority considering how many other port options would be available to them in the area.

[Legbreaker]

And a working ship wouldn't be important for communication, transport of food stuffs and evacuation?
The remaing fuel may even be used to power a small fishing fleet - while it lasts.

[kalos72]

As an asset sure...where that asset is parked, doesn't matter at all.

[Legbreaker]

If it's to be useful it needs to be close. The condition of available facilites is therefore very important.

I've said it before - nothing happens in isolation.

[sglancy12]

I'm happy to be corrected but from memory wasn't Norfolk only targeted with one nuclear warhead, and that malfunctioned/mis-targeted and detonated in the water somewhere out in Chesapeake Bay? I'm pretty sure that the port facilities in and around Norfolk were damaged by the resulting tsunami, not by nuclear blast.

Kalos72 is right. That's the Jacksonville near miss you're thinking about.

Why Norfolk? I mean it was hit by a few nukes and the port a melted pile of sludge? I would think a more minor port advantageous to the Milgov...

Well if we can have a whole scenario set in L'vov after it got plastered by a MIRV (Bear's Den) then Norfolk can be used as a Milgov enclave.

Cheyenne Mountain took a 3Mt groundburst and survived in operational condition. That's within the facilities anticipated tolerances though. The part we should be griping about is that the fallout didn't irradiate Colorado Springs enough to make it uninhabitable for the next few decades, and therefore impossible to function as the HQ of Milgov. We never complain about that... but maybe we should.

I mean, Omaha as CivGov HQ after Offut AFB takes a hit? Maybe in my homebrew I'll move Milgov HQ to Denver and CivGov HQ to Lincoln NB or maybe Minneapolis-St. Paul MN.

Also there is no mention of the troops going to the Middle East or anywhere else... and once more the issue of fuel supplies rears its ugly head when the only fuel available is from a drifting tanker....

The first mention of troops deploying from Operation Omega to the middle east is in the timeline for The RDF Sourcebook. Kalos72 mentions Howling Wilderness but I don't remember that reference and I'm away from my books at the moment.

Where that asset (the surviving ships) is parked, doesn't matter at all.

Actually it matters a whole lot. The surviving fleet units must be anchored somewhere defensible so they don't fall into the wrong hands. They have to be anchored somewhere sheltered from storms and other natural hazards. They can't be left without crews in international waters or the French are just going to sail up, drop a prize crew aboard and rename it La Bonaparte and they'd be within their rights to do so. Perhaps Norfolk, as bad as it is, is literally the only port on the east coast that is

a) under Milgov control

b) large enough to handle the number of surviving ships.

c) is appropriately sheltered from the elements

d) has enough surviving facilities to even get one small dry dock working.

Remember, the bombs hit in November of 97. By Summer of 2000 there has been plenty of time for Milgov to spend resources getting some parts of the yard back in business.

We are talking about how important a demolished Norfolk Naval Yard would be to the Enclave compared to moving to an area where they can feed themselves.

Once the men are ashore, they can use their LPCs to relocate to other enclaves, like the Ft. Dix enclave. Or if discharged by MilGov they could hoof it to the CivGov enclave in Maryland and sign up there too. Or just be discharged and start legging it for home to see if any of their friends or family made it. They don't have to sit there and starve.

The surviving fleet units don't have that luxury.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

I guess it depends on what fleet you think is left. I DONT want to go over that again as it tends to get messy.

But for me, if even some of the returning troops stay on the Norfolk enclave makes alot of sense depending in the totals.

The more we talk about this, the more I like the idea that some people got discharged. Makes it a bit easier to swallow then seeing 50k troops back in the US when they cant feed themsevles.

Would MILGOV give them weapons or confiscate them ya think?

[pmulcahy11b]

This whole discussion makes me think of what would happen when 50,000 hungry and armed troops show up in a place where food is scarce. You know what will happen? A riot by those who already live there! Followed by a massacre at the hands of all those armed troops returning!

[Cdnwolf]

This whole discussion makes me think of what would happen when 50,000 hungry and armed troops show up in a place where food is scarce. You know what will happen? A riot by those who already live there! Followed by a massacre at the hands of all those armed troops returning!

General Po's idea of heaven you mean!!

[WallShadow]

Actually, I know where it is, but what has happened to it re: the Twilight War? It has lots of supplies, fuel, an airstrip capable of handling b-52s, and several B-2 bombers stationed there (at least in realtime today). What's damaged, what's left, and how do we get there to loot it?

[Targan]

General Po's idea of heaven you mean!!

Do you mean Major Po or General Pain? Or some sort of horrific combination of the two?

[Cdnwolf]

Do you mean Major Po or General Pain? Or some sort of horrific combination of the two?

I thought he automatically got promoted at death!!

[Legbreaker]

Actually, I know where it is, but what has happened to it re: the Twilight War? It has lots of supplies, fuel, an airstrip capable of handling b-52s, and several B-2 bombers stationed there (at least in realtime today). What's damaged, what's left, and how do we get there to loot it?

I think you probably mean "had" all that stuff.
Several years into the war the vast majority of stores all over the world would have been depleted. With the Nukes wiping out virtually all significant production and transportation, those stores are extremely unlikely to be replenished.

So, the airstrip might still be useable, but what's the point when there's hardly any aircraft flying about wasting valuable fuel?

However, my guess is that it would have attracted a nuke. Situated where it is, and housing one of the five GPS monitoring stations not to mention being a rather important naval base, etc, it would almost be considered criminal to think the Soviets would leave it intact.

[pmulcahy11b]

Do you mean Major Po or General Pain? Or some sort of horrific combination of the two?

Major General Popain? "Excuse me sir, do you have any Grey Popain?"

I'm sorry about that last line, I couldn't resist...:D

[Targan]

I thought he automatically got promoted at death!!

Major Po isn't dead, just the campaign he was in. In fact I'm not even sure that he could be killed. To paraphrase Rah from Platoon "The only thing that can kill Po is Po".

[Legbreaker]

Nuke him from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[pmulcahy11b]

Nuke him from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

You'd need a Nova Bomb from Starship Troopers.

[Legbreaker]

Good point. Maybe we'd better just bring in the Death Star and be done with it?

[kalos72]

To bump this thread....

Assuming you agree with the concept that some of the returning forces from Europe would be let go, would they get to keep their weapons and such? Or would MILGOV give them a few weeks rations and a parka and just say "Good luck, your on your own"?

Seems like an awful lot of hardware running around Virginia then if so...

[Adm.Lee]

I can't believe they would be just discharged, guns & all, without some kind of planning. There's going to be enough of a problem with the ones that will just walk off on their own! On what grounds would they be allowed to leave? I would think their contracts have an "emergency stop-loss" clause, and if there's any time to enforce that, it's after 1997.

The best case I can see for those who insist on leaving would be offer to set up colonies of farmers on empty land, like the Romans used to offer their veterans. Then they could keep their guns, of course, and act as militia. Or jobs in repair & recovery shops for skilled mechs.

[kalos72]

In theory thats a fine idea, set them up as guards in farming communities.

But I would think there would be a concern that these units, who have no loyalty to the community they are placed, much less to the government that just tossed them out, just turning marauder no?

If they arent under direct command of MILGOV, would they let them walk away with all that hardware?

[Webstral]

The best case I can see for those who insist on leaving would be offer to set up colonies of farmers on empty land, like the Romans used to offer their veterans. Then they could keep their guns, of course, and act as militia. Or jobs in repair & recovery shops for skilled mechs.

This seems very sensible.

Of course, one track could be a blue-on-blue psyops gig. Run everybody who wants to leave through a gamut of civilians talking about how horrible things are out there and how the troops at least eat. Get the returnees from Europe thinking that they are better off in uniform than out. Pass out some medals and maybe even establish a Potemkin village to get the boys thinking that the country could be fixed--if they stay. Maybe MilGov could create some villains responsible for horrible, horrible things and emphasize that the Army is going to go get all the bad guys during the process of rebuilding the nation. All that rubbish...

Webstral

[kalos72]

I dont think it will be soldiers wanting to leave as much as MILGOV not being able to feed them all and discharging them. Printed canon says some will be released once they back to the States.

[Dogger]

How things worked out in my game went like this;

I gave Norfolk a pass and used the 'near miss' scenario. Norfolk was damaged but not destroyed. The canon was too fudged up IMO to use, why go to Norfolk if it had been nuked? there were plenty of other ports still available.

As far as the troop situation upon returning. Basically I had it were even though MILGOV did have plans for many of the troops, once they got back on US soil - some after many years in the ETO - there was very little MILGOV could do (short of executing a bunch of them) to keep them in the service.

I understand the point about saying that most would not want a discharge because they would be on there own without food or supplies. However I had the driving force for the ones who left be that they needed to go and find out what had become of their loved ones and homes...many would return to MILGOV after finding out they had nothing left of their old lives...many died.

About half mustered out/deserted/went over the wire etc.

My player team made a deal with MILGOV, they basically told them they were 'heading out' but would agree to be 'in reserve' should MILGOV really need them.

My guys left and worked their way to Texas playing out Allegheny Uprising, Airlords of the Ozarks and Gateway to the Spanish Main along the way before getting to Texas and getting involved in Red Star/Lone Star and a long campaign based around the South Texas Grange.

Oh, and MILGOV did come calling a while later...the guys got roped into the MILGOV invasion of Florida to take down the New American Southern Confederation at St. Petersburg...

It went on from there. ;)

[boogiedowndonovan]

This seems very sensible.

Of course, one track could be a blue-on-blue psyops gig. Run everybody who wants to leave through a gamut of civilians talking about how horrible things are out there and how the troops at least eat. Get the returnees from Europe thinking that they are better off in uniform than out. Pass out some medals and maybe even establish a Potemkin village to get the boys thinking that the country could be fixed--if they stay. Maybe MilGov could create some villains responsible for horrible, horrible things and emphasize that the Army is going to go get all the bad guys during the process of rebuilding the nation. All that rubbish...

Webstral

Webstral, I like your line of thinking. When I GM, I do twisted things like this and mess with player's minds.

[Targan]

How things worked out in my game went like this;

I gave Norfolk a pass and used the 'near miss' scenario. Norfolk was damaged but not destroyed. The canon was too fudged up IMO to use, why go to Norfolk if it had been nuked? there were plenty of other ports still available.

As far as the troop situation upon returning. Basically I had it were even though MILGOV did have plans for many of the troops, once they got back on US soil - some after many years in the ETO - there was very little MILGOV could do (short of executing a bunch of them) to keep them in the service.

I understand the point about saying that most would not want a discharge because they would be on there own without food or supplies. However I had the driving force for the ones who left be that they needed to go and find out what had become of their loved ones and homes...many would return to MILGOV after finding out they had nothing left of their old lives...many died.

About half mustered out/deserted/went over the wire etc.

My player team made a deal with MILGOV, they basically told them they were 'heading out' but would agree to be 'in reserve' should MILGOV really need them.

I did things very similarly in my campaign.