Sawed off M79

[General Pain]

I must admit I liked it...

http://airsoftxsports.com/images/JG-CAW-M79-SO-lg.jpg

[Ramjam]

I have to say that would be a nice close range last ditch weapon if loaded with a M576 buckshot round.

The recoil might be a bitch but what the hell.

[headquarters]

would such a weapon work effeciently -or would the shorter barrel mean insufficient combustion to get good effect from the buckshot shell ?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well from what I understand of the ammunition, they use a two stage ignition. There's a small high-pressure chamber that ignites first and the gases from that expand into a larger low-pressure chamber and from there propel the warhead.
I think length of barrel makes no difference to combustion but only affects the range and accuracy.

[Legbreaker]

Well firstly I'm VERY concerned about the recoil. There's a reason there's a butt on grenade launchers....

Secondly, I'm worried the barrel being so short might not be able to impart sufficient spin on explosive rounds to arm them. I could be wrong, but if not, you're simply throwing very expensive stones.

I'd rather use a sawn off 8 gauge....

[Targan]

Sawn off M79s were mentioned in a book I read about the SOG in Vietnam so they definitely work. I know that they had a shorter barrel but I can't remember if the butt was sawn off as well.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm basically trying to remember what I read in one of those Osprey Men-At-Arms books dealing with Vietnam, I think it stated that the cut down M79s were used specifically as a break contact weapon and were loaded with the buckshot round and not with any of the explosive types. What's the minimum arming distance, something like 14-20 metres or some such? I would think that a radically short barrel would be a serious problem for what Legbreaker mentioned regards getting enough spin to arm the round.
And if I remember right, the colour plates in the Men-At-Arms book showed a US recce guy with a sawn off M79 with the butt cut down to resemble a sawn off shotgun grip just like the pictures posted here by General Pain.

While it hasn't happened to me, I've know guys who have been 'bitten' by the safety catch on the M79 due to the recoil, I think the recoil on the sawn off version would be much, much worse if for no other reasons than there's less weight to absorb recoil and you just cannot brace it in any way.

[pmulcahy11b]

They were also tried wired onto M-16s, something that proved unsatisfactory -- no mounting technique was devised that could bear up to the strain for long.

[headquarters]

Well , in the situation were you would have to use such a beastly weapon cosnidring recoil and all , slight injury from recoil might be the least of your problems.

GP - do I smell a new fav sidearm ?

(Not for use against NPCs folks , such hyper cal guns are used top end PC vs PC arguments in our campaign ..)

I'm basically trying to remember what I read in one of those Osprey Men-At-Arms books dealing with Vietnam, I think it stated that the cut down M79s were used specifically as a break contact weapon and were loaded with the buckshot round and not with any of the explosive types. What's the minimum arming distance, something like 14-20 metres or some such? I would think that a radically short barrel would be a serious problem for what Legbreaker mentioned regards getting enough spin to arm the round.
And if I remember right, the colour plates in the Men-At-Arms book showed a US recce guy with a sawn off M79 with the butt cut down to resemble a sawn off shotgun grip just like the pictures posted here by General Pain.

While it hasn't happened to me, I've know guys who have been 'bitten' by the safety catch on the M79 due to the recoil, I think the recoil on the sawn off version would be much, much worse if for no other reasons than there's less weight to absorb recoil and you just cannot brace it in any way.

[micromachine]

I seem to remember somewhere that Special Forces (read SEALs and MACVSOG) used these little beauties as a break contact weapon. Operators are always tweaking weapons to get that little extra punch or save the few extra ounces. Sort of like a holdout pistol, it would be used in a situation of last resort.

[jester]

I have seen the same book, and the colour plates ie cartoons showed similiar.

Here is an issue, one due to recoil when using shotguns in the 12 gauge catagory sawn off to that level tend to blow the users head clean off, thus I call BS!

And yes its a single barrel, but the recoil and "whip" action will mess up the shooter.

And a generous GM giving the players such a weapon should be mindful that using buckshot or flachette well, there would be no arming distance so pooff the hostiles get all the negative effects.

[headquarters]

I dont follow..?

Do you mean to say that usingthis or a 12 gage sawn of with the same 5 inch barrel would take your head off as you pull the trigger ?

I dont know about arming distance for buckshot round for the 40mm - but I remember the 40 we used had a 10-14 meter arming distance for HE and other shells . ( German HK mountd on G3 rifle ).

We didnt have the break contact shells though, arent they like a shotgun shell were only the shrapnel leave the barrel ?

I have seen the same book, and the colour plates ie cartoons showed similiar.

Here is an issue, one due to recoil when using shotguns in the 12 gauge catagory sawn off to that level tend to blow the users head clean off, thus I call BS!

And yes its a single barrel, but the recoil and "whip" action will mess up the shooter.

And a generous GM giving the players such a weapon should be mindful that using buckshot or flachette well, there would be no arming distance so pooff the hostiles get all the negative effects.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

From what I remember the buckshot round for the M79 during the Vietnam era consisted of about 20-24 pellets in a sabot and because the round is not explosive in any sense, it doesn't require arming.
That combined with the high-low pressure ignition system of the 40mm round means the length of the barrel of a cut down M79 is not the same problem that it is for a shotgun

[General Pain]

I must admit I liked it...

http://airsoftxsports.com/images/JG-CAW-M79-SO-lg.jpg

So what kind of rounds are possible for this beauty (pc-killer) ;)?

Flechette,HE,HEAT(low yield),CS,nervegass,shotgun,slug,incendiary,illum ?
(did I forget any)

and how about the stats for said rounds ?

[Legbreaker]

Basically any 40mm round could be fired from it but as has been mentioned there's question over the probabilty of the grenades arming.
Accuracy would also stink (don't count on hitting anything beyond a stones throw or so) and recoil could well break the firers wrist.

All in all you'd have to be mad, or desperate, or both!

[Hybris]

The arming distance for the grenade is 14-17 meters.

There is also a time delay (if this works correctly) that will detonate the grenade after 2,5 seconds after it hit the ground.

While using the pink filled powder training practice round the self-destruct often failed, mostly ( I presume) due to the snowy and soft ground.

The Russians 30mm grenade (I heard) arming distance is 21 meters +- 6.

It was fun using this feature while playing GURPS.
You would never now in advance if the grenade armed itself or not when fighting at close courtier.

[Legbreaker]

With roughly a dozen types of round, HE, HEDP, APERS, etc, there's likely as many arming distances. Of course barrel twist and legth from model to model will probably have an impact too.
So, the moral to the story? If they're close enough to use a hand greade, use that instead.

As for self distruction, that feature is limited to only certain rounds in my experience (none which were on issue in my day).

[BigEd]

Another pic of a M79 with just the stock chopped.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/9/90/M79ruckostrom.jpg/400px-M79ruckostrom.jpg

Tied onto Tropical Rucksack in vietnam, WP grenade above the handle.

///ed///

[waiting4something]

Another pic of a M79 with just the stock chopped.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/9/90/M79ruckostrom.jpg/400px-M79ruckostrom.jpg

Tied onto Tropical Rucksack in vietnam, WP grenade above the handle.

///ed///

Damn there is almost no pistol grip at all!:eek: I think it would tear up the users hand a little. But, hell I try it once, twice if I liked it.;)

[Brother in Arms]

Special forces units in Vietnam partuclary the LRRPS,SEALS and SOG team fairly routinely cut down the M-79 even after they were able to aquire the XM-148 grenade launcher. I have been told a good 79 gunner could have 3 grenades in the air at one time before the first one hit the ground.

I have seen photos of even shorter barrels than the examples shown in the thread so far. From what I have read the recoil isnt that bad and in thich jungle area the reduced range wasn't an issue. Accuracy isn't that much of an issue either given that firing a grenade is like tossing a football it just takes practice to make it go.

I have always like the fullsized M-79 for t2k because it can fire more rounds than the M203 like ILUM rounds. Though a cut down M79 could'nt because the barrel is to short to accomodate them.

I like that its a dedicated grenade launcher its a good item to have in your guntruck.

[pmulcahy11b]

Of course, the next step is to wire two or more of them together and load them with tactical buckshot...:firedevil

[Legbreaker]

I must admit I liked it...

http://airsoftxsports.com/images/JG-CAW-M79-SO-lg.jpg

I'm afraid I've found a small problem with this weapon. It's not real - it's an airsoft. Great for firing paint pellets, but forget about real rounds.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That image being an airsoft weapon isn't so important, cut down M79s were real and were definitely used in Vietnam, the airsoft companies just copied them.
This site http://www.lcompanyranger.com/usweapons/m79page.htm has two images of cut down M79s, one has already been shown here but the other shows Bob Suchke standing in front of a hut while he is holding a cut down M79 that's about as short as the airsoft image.
This site http://www.mitierragrafix.com/vietnam/vietnam.html has an image about a quarter of the way down the page of Charles Mason holding another cut down launcher.
Also http://s285.photobucket.com/albums/ll77/Skeetr_photos/?action=view&current=AB_0_020.jpg has pilot Tom O'Hara holding one that's just as small as the original picture in this thread

[Legbreaker]

Well that makes me think a little. With the airsoft weapons looking so like the real ones (not just the M79 but all the hundred of others out there), they could prove useful for bluffing.
Hmm, paintball ammo loaded with chemical irritants and other nastiness could be fun too.

[Kemper Boyd]

Hmm, paintball ammo loaded with chemical irritants and other nastiness could be fun too.

These are already used for crowd control purposes and manufactured commercially.

[Brother in Arms]

Excellent links stainless steel cynic
it reminded me about something I forgot to write...one of the sawed off m79s has tape on the forend and barrel. If you cut them down to far they forend and barrel was likely to fall off when opened so often times that was done to prevent that from occuring. Sounds pretty ghetto but it worked. I have also read that the wood stocked ones were sought after specifically for cutting down...most m79s were equipped with brownish colored fibre glass stocks same material as the later M14 stocks and they were more difficult for the GIs to cut down and reshape.

[Legbreaker]

An old solider in my first unit was a scout in Vietnam. Got in all sorts of trouble for cutting the barrel off his L1A1 SLR at the gas plug.
Made for a much more handy weapon in close terrain but had a HUGE muzzle flash.
Even though the shorter length was more suitable to the terrain, he still spent time with the MPs and had to pay for the damaged weapon. Next time he went out, he did it again, which according to witnesses saved his life when his patrol ran into trouble...

[Ramjam]

I read about them in a old Osprey book many years ago Leg.

I check Wiki and here's what it says :

'Another interesting product of Australian participation in the conflict in South-East Asia was the field modification of L1A1 and L2A1 rifles by the Australian Special Air Service Regiment SASR for better handling. Nicknamed "The Bitch", these rifles were field modified, often from heavy barrel L2A1 automatic rifles, with their barrels cut off immediately in front of the gas block, and often with the L2A1 bipods removed and a XM148 40 mm grenade launcher mounted below the barrel. The XM148 40 mm grenade launchers were obtained from U.S. forces. For the L1A1, the lack of fully-automatic fire resulted in the unofficial conversion of the L1A1 to full-auto capability by simply filing down the selector as it works by restricting trigger movement.If pulled only slightly, which semi-auto position allows, the disconnector is caught by the notch on the hammer, and upon releasing the trigger, it pushes the disconnector over the edge of the top of the trigger, giving it the necessary clearance to disengage the hammer and release upon pulling it again'

[Legbreaker]

Yes, he was doing basically the same thing but was in a "standard" infantry battalion. "Modifying" weapons was very much frowned upon outside the SAS.
I don't know if he modified to fire auto, but I wouldn't be suprised. 20+ years later when I served with him, he was still a private.....
His son was in the same company and actually outranked him!

[Raellus]

Sawn off M79s were mentioned in a book I read about the SOG in Vietnam so they definitely work. I know that they had a shorter barrel but I can't remember if the butt was sawn off as well.

Yup. They often carried them in a "holster" fashioned out of a canvas canteen carrier. They were most often used to break contact, firing the buckshot round, but they could also be used to lob HE.

John Plaster devotes a paragraph or two to the sawed-off M79 in his SOG A Photo History of the Secret Wars. There's also a photo of one. The SOG man in the photo has it tied to his grenadier's vest with a lanyard. Another cut-down M79 is featured in a color plate by Ron Volstad in Osprey's U.S. Army Special Forces, 1952-1984.

[Grimace]

Wow...methinks someone is a bit confused about the actual intent of this board. :smashfrea

[HorseSoldier]

Refreshing change from people requesting assistance in smuggling oil money out of Nigeria, but spam all the same . . .

[simonmark6]

Maybe we should direct them to Paul's page, after all, he has dollar prices for everything...

[pmulcahy11b]

Maybe we should direct them to Paul's page, after all, he has dollar prices for everything...

I get enough email about that already!

[simonmark6]

Well, if you don't want any of that action there's a Prince from Somalia I know who's trying to release funds in order to buy more food for his people. Apparently all you have to do is set up an account with five hundred pounds and once the transactions are over you'll be left with two grand as a thankyou.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, if you don't want any of that action there's a Prince from Somalia I know who's trying to release funds in order to buy more food for his people. Apparently all you have to do is set up an account with five hundred pounds and once the transactions are over you'll be left with two grand as a thankyou.

That kind of phishing never made any sense to me. Wouldn't that be a net loss for the Prince and his people?

[simonmark6]

Usually they say the account is a blind for them to process funds, the idea is that it allows them to buy things they couldn't otherwise and the money left is a sweetener to the deal. I've never tried it but I suspect that in reality your account would be stripped and you'd never see your money again.

[bobcat]

as to the question of grenades arming. you won't have a problem if you leave about 1CM from where the forearms ends(from what i've been told i would never modify my favorite uncles guns). as for recoil i've noticed it isn't that bad even with a pistol grip and short barrel.(again from stories i've never done anything like that to anything uncle sam has handed me)

(and as for why i've used such old weaponry my old reserve unit still had kentucky long rifles on the books)

[rcaf_777]

Could this be used for non leathal stuff, I'm thinking about that scene from T2 when Arnold hit that feeling cop with a Tear Gas round, also could used to frie point blank through a window or door, just try to figure answers to question that PC always ask

[Panther Al]

Well, there is LTL rounds for the 203: Bean bag, rubber, and that sort. Rubber rounds do rather well on feral dogs.

[bobcat]

Could this be used for non leathal stuff, I'm thinking about that scene from T2 when Arnold hit that feeling cop with a Tear Gas round, also could used to frie point blank through a window or door, just try to figure answers to question that PC always ask

:D yes, cs to the chest.:D
but on a less phsycotic note it will work for LTL munitions.

[copeab]

I really see this more as an emergency weapon for a vehicle crew -- something a driver or helicopter pilot keeps under his seat in case he has to abandon his vehicle and discourage pursuers on foot. That is, I see this as a defensive rather than offensive weapon.

[Legbreaker]

Personally, if I have to carry a shotgun or grenade launcher, I'll take one that's actually capable of doing something to an opponent who's not already standing on my toes. Sure the cut down GL is cool and all that, but it's usefulness is severely limited and I can't imagine any professional foot mobile solider wanting to carry what is essentially one shot dead weight.

[ArmySGT.]

Wow...methinks someone is a bit confused about the actual intent of this board. :smashfrea

Do tell.

[Legbreaker]

I believe that refers to a deleted post from somebody seeking to buy or sell weapons...
:confused:

[ArmySGT.]

I believe that refers to a deleted post from somebody seeking to buy or sell weapons...
:confused:

Is that what it is? Seemed a non-sequitur.

[Raellus]

Personally, if I have to carry a shotgun or grenade launcher, I'll take one that's actually capable of doing something to an opponent who's not already standing on my toes. Sure the cut down GL is cool and all that, but it's usefulness is severely limited and I can't imagine any professional foot mobile solider wanting to carry what is essentially one shot dead weight.

Er, what? Is that "professional" bit a shot at SOG? Maybe the context under which cut-down M79s were carried/used wasn't clear. The SOG teams that used the cut-down M79 would literally bump into NVA patrols, on occasion. So yes, the weapon was meant for close in work. In thick jungle, typical engagement ranges were often at around 10-20m. For that, you don't really need a full-sized GL or a 7.62mm (NATO) battle rifle. To give you an example that hopefully transcends simple jingoism, that's why a lot of ASAS and NZSAS either carried M-16s, 9mm SMGs, or cut-down FALs (which produced a significant amount of recoil and muzzle flash and often necessitated a forward pistol grip in order to control the weapon) while on LRPs in Vietnam.

[Graebarde]

Well, there is LTL rounds for the 203: Bean bag, rubber, and that sort. Rubber rounds do rather well on feral dogs.

'06 is MUCH better on feral dogs though!! FB

[Panther Al]

'06 is MUCH better on feral dogs though!! FB

True... But a 40mm grenade launcher is so much more fun!

[Legbreaker]

Of course not. It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me to carry something that's really only useful at almost point blank range when for a few hundred grams more you can have a weapon that's useful out to 400 metres.
I suppose if the individual carrying it is only operating in extremely close terrain such as jungle or highly built up urban it might make some sense, but personally I'd still prefer the full sized weapon, just in case a longer shot is required.
But that's just my opinion.

As for cut down rifles, yes, I can understand that. I served with one man who got in trouble on numerous occasions for taking off the barrel of his SLR with a hacksaw half an inch in front of the gas plug. Longer range accuracy was problematic at best, but the shorter weapon saved his life at least once.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well I suppose it helps to remember that the cutdown M79 was very much a specialist tool for a limited environment. It certainly wasn't intended for mainstream work and from what I've read in the Osprey Men-At-Arms book, it was specifically meant as a break-contact weapon - one 40mm buckshot round towards the enemy to discourage them from following up the patrol as the patrol was attempting to leave the area.

[Fusilier]

It just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me

Maybe... because you're not SOG.

: D

[Legbreaker]

Who here is?
As for breaking contact, wouldn't a couple of hand grenades be just as good? Or simply spraying the area with automatic fire?
Obviously somebody thought cutting the M79 down was a good idea, but there just seems to be many other more flexible options. Perhaps it was done as a mission specific thing and only used on a couple of occasions.
Perhaps we'll never know...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think their reasoning was that in close jungle, hand grenades could be less effective for numerous reasons. It seems that the 40mm buckshot was used as the major disincentive to the VC/NVA to follow up the patrol, I don't know if they actually cared if they killed any enemy with it.
They probably felt the psychological aspect of what is basically a 40mm shotgun shell going off, making a hell of a racket and tearing up the leaves, would be enough to convince the VC/NVA not to follow them.

[HorseSoldier]

Hand grenades were problematic in a lot of the junk that passed for terrain in Vietnam, where bamboo, vines, and other vegetation could be thick enough that a good toss with a grenade could still result in it landing basically at your feet. That's not a universal description of the terrain in Vietnam, but both to look for the other side and to maximize their own stealth and security, LRRPs and SOG and whatnot tended to wind up in the thickest, ugliest terrain the country had to offer.

I think the Vietnam era iteration of the Australian Peel break contact drill also avoided hand grenades and relied on each guy in the column executing a magazine dump and then moving for the same reasons.

[ArmySGT.]

Who here is?
As for breaking contact, wouldn't a couple of hand grenades be just as good? Or simply spraying the area with automatic fire?
Obviously somebody thought cutting the M79 down was a good idea, but there just seems to be many other more flexible options. Perhaps it was done as a mission specific thing and only used on a couple of occasions.
Perhaps we'll never know...

Because when they mean bumping into an enemy patrol AKA Contact, they don't mean just seeing each other. They mean that in the dense foliage of the jungle; that one could literally reach out, and touch the enemy.

A M79 buckshot round is gonna upset that enemy soldier two feet away; and the next one, six feet away. While the patrol then hauls ass in the opposite direction, pulling the pin on a four second delay, fragmentation grenade.

When the column is reversed, and the former pointman passes the trail with "last man, last man!"; the trail then pulls the pulls the fuse igniter for the 60 second fuse on a claymore, with detonation cord, and a blasting cap in the fuse well.

That was a pursuit denial munition then, now their are purpose built pursuit denial munitions.

[Panther Al]

Who here is?
As for breaking contact, wouldn't a couple of hand grenades be just as good? Or simply spraying the area with automatic fire?
Obviously somebody thought cutting the M79 down was a good idea, but there just seems to be many other more flexible options. Perhaps it was done as a mission specific thing and only used on a couple of occasions.
Perhaps we'll never know...

A Hyper Cut Down blooper makes great sense: for an admittedly limited target environment. Picture it less as a grenade launcher and more as a hand held claymore: Patrol in dense bush bumps into the other guys. Point guy gets off a burst - being that he is a SOG type, his time lost to surprise is much shorter than the other poor bastards - and becomes one with the dirt. Guy behind him, having an extra moment, and having a plan already in place for what to do in this situation - whips out the thing, aims it in the general direction - and by this time #1 is in the ground, and bang - picture a claymore going off at heads height. True: Not gonna be good for past 50m or so - and aiming is pointless. But then the badguys are not at 50m, they are at 5dm. It really doesn't matter how bad the aim is at this point. After the loud bang, and the other patrol is busy getting nailed by a hail of shot, the patrol - again, executing a planned response, falls back to regroup and decide what to do now.

Its not meant to be a man-killer: Its meant to do something much more important.... buy time on your terms.

[Legbreaker]

What's the spread likely to be?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

What's the spread likely to be?
Lifted from a wiki page

40mm M576 APers contains twenty 24 gram metal pellets. Normal dispersion pattern of the M576 will put 13 of 20 pellets in a 1.5 meter circle at 40 meters. The remaining 7 pellets could be anywhere.

[Raellus]

Lifted from a wiki page

40mm M576 APers contains twenty 24 gram metal pellets. Normal dispersion pattern of the M576 will put 13 of 20 pellets in a 1.5 meter circle at 40 meters. The remaining 7 pellets could be anywhere.

I reckon the spread would be greater at that range- at any range, really- if the round is fired from a short-barrelled Blooper.

[Legbreaker]

That's still only 20 pellets.
When was the APERs round developed?

[pmulcahy11b]

That's idea I get about the sawed-off M-79. "IN YOUR FACE! (Boom!) GIT THE F**K OUTTA HERE!"

[Panther Al]

Especially if you have - and you should - a plan in place for some CMA (Cover My Ass) shoots.

Before you go out on patrol, you get with your gunbunnies and pick out a dozen or so points where you are planning to be patrolling. Each pair of points (and they do come in pairs) are about 3 to 5 minutes run from each one, in a nice arrow straight line.

So, lets pick up on our hapless party:

They decided that the company that just got a face full of metal is more than they can chew. A claymore set up like ArmySGT said buys a few more seconds - and more importantly, instills some caution in the chasers - while they haul ass. The RTO gets on the horn, and informs higher, and then as they get near one of the pre plotted points, calls up the guns: "Redleg, greenleg, CMA Shoot!" (Or something to that nature, overseas our calls was pretty much that - we didn't have time for a drawn out procedure in this sort of thing) Because, before hand, they made arrangements that calling for this is a lot like asking for FPF: You get to go to the head of the line. They will respond saying they are getting set up. Once you reach the first of the two points, you call up again, saying that you are passing point Alpha. By this times the guns should be up, oriented on target, and waiting for the word to fire. You haul ass harder: In fact, you don't care of they see you now, because that just draws them closer. You cross Point Bravo.. keep hauling, and call out you passed it. At which point the arty fills a 50m wide rectangle between A and B. If they was close, they are not so close anymore. And if they wasn't close enough to get caught, they are very much stopping to think things over.


Always have a GO To Hell Plan. :)

[Targan]

No question, a cut down M-79 would be a potent tool as part of spec ops point blank break contact drills. But as I'm sure many here already know, groups like SOG were (and most likely still are) incredibly aggressive when it comes to immediate action drills in the event of close-in ambushes. Their intra-unit tactics are finely honed, they carry much heavier overall firepower than similarly sized regular infantry units and (as has been previously mentioned) their general response to close-in surprise contact is to empty entire mags at the enemy and either withdraw in 2-by-2 fire and movement or push through and close with the enemy with the intent of utterly destroying a small enough opposing force.

Terrifyingly efficient. Now that's how to apply shock and awe on a small unit basis.

[Raellus]

Besides time-delay fuses for frags and Claymores, SOG would often carry CS gas grenades to strew in their wake, and occasionally "toe-popper" anti-personnel mines as well, to disuade/hinder pursuit.

When there's only 7-8 or you in the middle of an NVA regimental staging area, district rest camp, or road-repair unit guard detail, with specially trained NVA hunter-killer teams actively searching for you, no artillery support, and air support (if available) is an hour away, you learn to employ every trick in the book.

IMHO, SOG recon team members were some of the ballsiest warriors ever.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's still only 20 pellets.
When was the APERs round developed?

40mm M576 APers round - developed in 1966 and used in the Vietnam War.
I believe there is a more modern version but I can't find any info on the net at the moment <Google-fu is not strong today>

[ArmySGT.]

40mm M576 APers round - developed in 1966 and used in the Vietnam War.
I believe there is a more modern version but I can't find any info on the net at the moment <Google-fu is not strong today>

Hint.


1677

[rcaf_777]

Personally I think this Pump Action M-79 GL made for the Seals in Vietnam would work better for breaking contact, a little heavier but now you can mix and match for 40mm rounds

[DCausey]

Me Likey. :)

Does it have 1+1 rounds? That would be a surprise for people just expecting one!

[Adm.Lee]

For what it's worth, I copied this from For Your Eyes Only

October 20, 2011: U.S. soldiers and Marines are using a new magazine for the 40mm grenades they fire from their single shot M203 and M320 grenade launchers. The MAG-D looks like a large rifle magazine. It is spring loaded and holds five 40mm rounds. Troops can easily pull a 40mm grenade from the MAG-D and load it into their weapon. A loaded MAG-D weighs less than three kg (6.6 pounds) each and is designed to hang from the webbing of the protective vest, and make additional rounds quickly available to troops carrying a rifle with a M203 or M320 attached (under the barrel). In the past, the 40mm rounds were carried loose or in bandoliers, and often got dirty or damaged. MAG-D also eliminates confusion about where different types of 40mm grenades are (high explosive, flare, smoke, tear gas, fuel-air explosive). U.S. Marines were the first to use MAG-D (which was invented by a former Marine) and want more of them.

[Raellus]

Personally I think this Pump Action M-79 GL made for the Seals in Vietnam would work better for breaking contact, a little heavier but now you can mix and match for 40mm rounds

I've read that it was heavy, slow to reload once empty, and just generally didn't work very well (not sure exactly why)- the few that saw field testing quickly got left behind in the team armory during ops.

[bobcat]

the china lake holds 3+1 rounds of M381 HE

sorry can't mix and match plus it weighs almost twice as much as an M79 and as has already been said is slow to reload.

[Panther Al]

Yep, thats the one as Bobcat said.

Neat concept, but really, was a solution looking for a problem. Too heavy and bulky to be really useful.

[HorseSoldier]

October 20, 2011: U.S. soldiers and Marines are using a new magazine for the 40mm grenades they fire from their single shot M203 and M320 grenade launchers. The MAG-D looks like a large rifle magazine. It is spring loaded and holds five 40mm rounds

That looks kind of miserable to wear around. I think I'll stick with my individual 40mm pockets if I find myself hauling an M203/320 around.

[ArmySGT.]

That looks kind of miserable to wear around. I think I'll stick with my individual 40mm pockets if I find myself hauling an M203/320 around.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/ArmySGT_photos/TW2K/MAG-D.jpg

I am with you. Looks kinda bulky. If it is quicker to load from ok. However Bandoliers carry more.

[Legbreaker]

I am with you. Looks kinda bulky. If it is quicker to load from ok. However Bandoliers carry more.

Looks like it's worth trialling anyway. Possibly as a replacement belt mounted ammo pouch...
Looks to be smaller than the 200 round Minimi pouches we were issued, so I'm not seeing bulk as a particularly big issue.

[bobcat]

build me a grenade launcher that takes that as a magazine. then throw together some Merc 2K stats for it.:D

what i like the idea of a mag fed GL almost as much as the fools in the bulleye building.

[ArmySGT.]

build me a grenade launcher that takes that as a magazine. then throw together some Merc 2K stats for it.:D

what i like the idea of a mag fed GL almost as much as the fools in the bulleye building.

XM25 Grenade Launcher (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/24/armys-revolutionary-rifle-use-afghanistan/)

In Action (http://video.foxnews.com/v/4438880/xm-25-rifle-in-action)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Please note: I'm not criticising the weapon or it's intended use or it's intended users, I'm criticising the stupidity in the statements made about it.
XM25 Grenade Launcher (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/11/24/armys-revolutionary-rifle-use-afghanistan/)

In Action (http://video.foxnews.com/v/4438880/xm-25-rifle-in-action)

I love the spin (i.e. sensationalist bullshit) reporters put on things and the complete lack of research they do these days and Fox news are some of the best of the worst (and I don't mean that as a compliment)...

"Since the dawn of modern warfare, the best way to stay alive in the face of incoming fire has been to take cover behind a wall. But thanks to a game-changing "revolutionary" rifle, the U.S. Army has made that tactic dead on arrival. Now the enemy can run, but he can't hide."

Yeah I know what they mean, when those pesky badguys hid behind a wall in the past, we were completely screwed! We'd have to "make do" with grenade launchers and mortars or we'd shoot through the wall with machineguns or use a LAW rocket, a passing tank or some other novelty to put a hole in the wall. :rolleyes:
Thanks to this "game-changing" rifle I won't have to do that any more... oh, but then again, I'm gonna be screwed if they do the Chechen trick, i.e. hide under fallen rubble and use car jacks to lift the block they're hiding under so they have a firing slit, then drop the rubble when they receive incoming fire :p :D

"With this weapon system, we take away cover from [enemy targets] forever," Lehner told FoxNews.com on Wednesday. "Tactics are going to have to be rewritten. The only thing we can see [enemies] being able to do is run away."

Yeah, that's right, cos nobody will have the ingenuity to figure out a way to protect themselves, oh hang on a second, there's still that Chechen trick... It's foolish to downright irresponsible to teach people that sort of rubbish, that one new toy will give them complete power over the enemy. For every system someone develops, there's someone who makes a counter to the system.

[Schone23666]

Please note: I'm not criticising the weapon or it's intended use or it's intended users, I'm criticising the stupidity in the statements made about it.


I love the spin (i.e. sensationalist bullshit) reporters put on things and the complete lack of research they do these days and Fox news are some of the best of the worst (and I don't mean that as a compliment)...

"Since the dawn of modern warfare, the best way to stay alive in the face of incoming fire has been to take cover behind a wall. But thanks to a game-changing "revolutionary" rifle, the U.S. Army has made that tactic dead on arrival. Now the enemy can run, but he can't hide."

Yeah I know what they mean, when those pesky badguys hid behind a wall in the past, we were completely screwed! We'd have to "make do" with grenade launchers and mortars or we'd shoot through the wall with machineguns or use a LAW rocket, a passing tank or some other novelty to put a hole in the wall. :rolleyes:
Thanks to this "game-changing" rifle I won't have to do that any more... oh, but then again, I'm gonna be screwed if they do the Chechen trick, i.e. hide under fallen rubble and use car jacks to lift the block they're hiding under so they have a firing slit, then drop the rubble when they receive incoming fire :p :D

"With this weapon system, we take away cover from [enemy targets] forever," Lehner told FoxNews.com on Wednesday. "Tactics are going to have to be rewritten. The only thing we can see [enemies] being able to do is run away."

Yeah, that's right, cos nobody will have the ingenuity to figure out a way to protect themselves, oh hang on a second, there's still that Chechen trick... It's foolish to downright irresponsible to teach people that sort of rubbish, that one new toy will give them complete power over the enemy. For every system someone develops, there's someone who makes a counter to the system.


I barely even watch Fox News anymore....there's only so much bullshit I can digest in 5 minutes, let alone an hour.

With THAT said....I'd be interested to see how this weapon performs. I don't think it's a bad concept at all. It may or may not be a "game changer" as they say, but still looks to have potential. I think it'd be bad idea to just dismiss the whole idea out of hand, but that's just me.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I barely even watch Fox News anymore....there's only so much bullshit I can digest in 5 minutes, let alone an hour.

Hell I'm a conservative and I think FN is bullshit.

This is/was stupid and basically product placement for ATK, nothing else. The aforementioned "lift up rubble with a car jack" trick is SORTA KINDA IMPERVIOUS to some dinky little 20-mm BB round.

Now a GPS locked SDB lofted from a passing F15E? Yeah that's more like it.

[ArmySGT.]

Hell I'm a conservative and I think FN is bullshit.

This is/was stupid and basically product placement for ATK, nothing else. The aforementioned "lift up rubble with a car jack" trick is SORTA KINDA IMPERVIOUS to some dinky little 20-mm BB round.

Now a GPS locked SDB lofted from a passing F15E? Yeah that's more like it.

Go back and read how it operates again.

[Webstral]

I think sensible people of any stripe are wary of rah-rah press. "We're so awesome!" is a dangerous thing to say and an even more dangerous thing to believe.

[HorseSoldier]

Has the XM25 been demonstrated to have killed anyone in combat yet?

On the early combat trials the powers-that-be declared it to be a game changer but the data on the ground was that it hadn't actually helped any Taliban types rendezvous with toe tags. Bad guys broke contact in several firefights involving the -25, but that may have just been scary-new-gun-itis. Until it starts making corpses it isn't getting the job done.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It may or may not be a "game changer" as they say, but still looks to have potential. I think it'd be bad idea to just dismiss the whole idea out of hand, but that's just me.
As mentioned, I wasn't criticizing the weapon or its intended use. I think it has a lot of potential and probably should be issued as a platoon level support weapon.

Some anecdotal reports from its combat trials in Afghanistan have made their onto Military.com and so far most of them have been very positive
http://www.military.com/news/article/punisher-gives-enemy-no-place-to-hide.html

There's also this report from ArmyTimes
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/02/army-xm25-punisher-battlefield-test-021411w/

[ArmySGT.]

There's also this report from ArmyTimes
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/02/army-xm25-punisher-battlefield-test-021411w/


^^^From this Article.

n one engagement, an enemy machine gunner was “so badly wounded or so freaking scared that he dropped [his] weapon” and ran, said Lt. Col. Christopher Lehner, Program Manager Individual Weapons.

There were no casualties among units carrying the XM25 in those nine engagements, Lehner said.

“No longer can the enemy shoot at American forces, then hide behind something,” said Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller of Program Executive Office Soldier. “This is a revolutionary weapon. This is a game-changer.”

[ArmySGT.]

Thanks to this "game-changing" rifle I won't have to do that any more... oh, but then again, I'm gonna be screwed if they do the Chechen trick, i.e. hide under fallen rubble and use car jacks to lift the block they're hiding under so they have a firing slit, then drop the rubble when they receive incoming fire :p :D

Locate target with Thermal viewer. Lase rubble. tap key for minus one meter. set cross hairs on firing slit. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter in front of firing slit. Enemy combatant take grenade fragments to the face.

Enemy combatant engages from hard cover (walled compound).

Lase wall. Tap key for plus one meter. Aim cross hairs on a position enemy combatant is popping up from. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter past wall and directly over combatants head. Combatants takes fragments to the head and torso.

It is a better tool in the tool box. Sure things were made do before, now it can be done better, Day or night.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Locate target with Thermal viewer. Lase rubble. tap key for minus one meter. set cross hairs on firing slit. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter in front of firing slit. Enemy combatant take grenade fragments to the face.

Enemy combatant engages from hard cover (walled compound).

Lase wall. Tap key for plus one meter. Aim cross hairs on a position enemy combatant is popping up from. Fire round. Round travels distance. Round detonates one meter past wall and directly over combatants head. Combatants takes fragments to the head and torso.

It is a better tool in the tool box. Sure things were made do before, now it can be done better, Day or night.

Only works if you actually know where the enemy is - the Chechens didn't show themselves all the time. Instead they'd raise the rubble just enough to allow a firing slit, take the shot then drop the rubble if they thought they were in danger.
Again, I'm not criticizing the weapon or it's intended employment, I was criticizing the way that Fox news reported on it.

[ArmySGT.]

I think it is going to be a game changer. Atleast as far as counter insurgency fighting in Afghanistan goes.

The Taliban are don't dig fighting positions , I have heard. Secondly the don't wear helmets and flak vests.

The opposition is going to have to adapt this time.

Next it forces the Taliban to give up the open country and go primarily urban. Since any wall or open ditch is no longer cover.

Takes away the range advantage. The Allies will be able to reach out to past the effective ranges of PK Machineguns and Enfield rifles.

May not be a "game changer" in a conventional war, but I think it is going to change the game in Afghanistan once deployed in large numbers.

[waiting4something]

After doing little research I was shocked to find out how anemic the buckshot load for the 40 mm is. It's only like 20 #4 buckshot pellets. Your average 12 gauge 2 3/4 shell hold 27 pellets by comparison. I always believed the round had 00 buckshot, but that is not the case. In theory a 12 gauge round is more lethal. I'm not sure about the flechette rounds, but the buckshot load isn't so hot.

[HorseSoldier]

It was designed primarily as a defensive battle carry round for M79 gunners operating in such thick jungle or similar that they might have to engage close range bad guys without the rifle armed members of their team/squad being able to do that for them. Kind of like the M1 carbine compared to the alternative of a handgun -- the round isn't ideal, but it's preferable to drawing a 1911 from a leather flap holster and engaging with that at spitting distance.

(And I think it was designed on a pretty fast timeline due to an urgent sort of need, followed by the whole idea losing relevance once the M203 and its experimental predecessors started showing up on the scene. Had it been subject to more refinement and development, the end result might have been more impressive. The flechette round might have done just that, but I don't think I've ever heard much official info on it.)

[Legbreaker]

And that's a major concern of mine too about using the sawn off GL in that way. There's just so many better options out there.
Even the noise of it firing is nothing compared to a 12 gauge, barely more than a loud "pop" which isn't going to scare so much as a mouse in most cases.
However, there's nothing wrong with experimenting, which is what I believe they were doing when it was first cut down.

With regard to the actual round itself, my guess is that the 40mm is severely limited by the felt recoil and muzzle velocity issues. The weapon itself is designed for a very slow moving projectile, while a proper shotgun (of any gauge) is designed for higher chamber pressures and therefore higher velocity projectiles.
If the 40mm was designed for higher pressures and velocities, it would be devastating, but, unfortunately (or fortunately if you're the one firing it and soaking up the recoil), it's not.

[HorseSoldier]

And for the most part even the special operations units in Vietnam, much less the less-special guys like LRRPs/Rangers, mostly had to figure out how to make do stuff already in the inventory they could adapt to their needs, without much of a R&D establishment to get them ideal tools for the tasks at hand (+/- some of the stuff the SEALs got out of China Lake). Even something as relatively simple as field gear was mostly modified or repurposed USGI stuff (or things like captured NVA rucksacks) rather than best-answer sort of solutions.

If the same guys had been at the sharp end with the modern R&D apparatus available to SOCOM and the conventional side of things there'd be a optimized solution on the ground within six months that functioned better than an M79 pistol. Back then, guys made do as best they could with much less well thought out support.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Apparently the 40mm flechette was abysmal in performance, the individual flechettes were turned aside by thick leaves and they didn't always hit point first (meaning they wouldn't penetrate at all but would hit side on and bounce off).

As for the low power of the 40mm APers, I can see why this is so, it appears to be little more than a truncated buckshot round. The following website shows it in all it's (less than) glory
http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo09sep.htm

Vietnam proved an interesting point in weapons/equipment development.
At the start of US involvement there were still many WW2 era weapons in use and a lot of the gear we take for granted now had its period of development or refinement during/in Vietnam (e.g. remote sensors to detect ground movement, wider issue of NVDs and so on).
I've seen photos in some books showing US special operations guys carrying MP40 SMGs, others in blue jeans spraypainted with black stripes. A lot of the guys at the sharp end probably ended up being quite innovative simply because they needed to be.

[Legbreaker]

The following website shows it in all it's (less than) glory
http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo09sep.htm
That is just...pathetic!

[ArmySGT.]

Only works if you actually know where the enemy is - the Chechens didn't show themselves all the time. Instead they'd raise the rubble just enough to allow a firing slit, take the shot then drop the rubble if they thought they were in danger.
Again, I'm not criticizing the weapon or it's intended employment, I was criticizing the way that Fox news reported on it.


That is where the Thermal Imager on top of this thing comes into play and the 500 meter point target capability.

That Chechen would be a hot spot in that pile of rubble, at night, and American Infantry prefers night fighting with each soldier wearing a PVS-14.

It is a slow phase in, however the PVS-14s replacement is get to the Troop Leaders at platoon level. This new widget combines a Thermal Imager and passive night vision into one view. The advantages of both operating simultaneously.

http://www.nightvision.com/products/military/product_pages/documents/ENVG.pdf

Do the Russians even field a Man Portable Thermal sight? Are Russian Thermals on Armor?

[Legbreaker]

Peripheral vision must absolutely SUCK with that... :(

[ArmySGT.]

Peripheral vision must absolutely SUCK with that... :(

You only wear it over one eye. It is a Monocle.

[Legbreaker]

Of course, however you can't exactly see much over to your right can you....
Might as well be wearing an eye patch in that regard.
I'm not saying at all it's a bad piece of kit, provided it's not relied upon too much and proper skills and training ignored.

[ArmySGT.]

Of course, however you can't exactly see much over to your right can you....
Might as well be wearing an eye patch in that regard.
I'm not saying at all it's a bad piece of kit, provided it's not relied upon too much and proper skills and training ignored.

Are you pulling my leg?

[Legbreaker]

No, I'm talking about the blind spot the wearer obviously must have over to their right. Sure they can see quite nicely though the unit to their front, but what chance have they got to see anything to their side?

[Panther Al]

Actually, Pretty good. Worn the 14's, and they have the same basic layout. Of course, you don't wear them right *against* your face, though it does perform better that way. When we patrolled with them we had them adjusted so there was half a inch or so from our face, allowing us to look around them. All a matter of training and using them long enough to know the tricks. Besides, it takes a half second to flip them up out of the way if you have to.

[Legbreaker]

Of course, you don't wear them right *against* your face, though it does perform better that way. When we patrolled with them we had them adjusted so there was half a inch or so from our face, allowing us to look around them. All a matter of training and using them long enough to know the tricks.

And there's the training issue I was talking about. If a user was to wear the unit against the eye, or rely soley upon the unit for their night vison (neglecting sound and ambient light) they can be a very bad thing. Used properly as Al has mentioned, they're good. The danger with it, as with any tech really, is an over reliance upon it to solve all your problems and neglecting the tried and true skills developed by centuries of warfare.

My comment on the blind spot is from the point of view of somebody who didn't have the luxury of night vision back when I was in. At best we had one whole rifle mounted scope assigned to the Company, and even that one was on loan from another unit. If you didn't have your eye pressed against it, restricting your field of vision to a narrow "tube", the unit was virtually worthless.

I think it's worth remembering that many of us ex-soldiers didn't have the exposure to the gadgets todays soldiers get to play with.