Where are the US airforce and Navy ground Units

[Spec6]

I'm sorry to say it But Can you see an airforce General officer in Europe leting his comand be take over as infantry in the Army .
So were our the Airforce Battions or Sqs listed in the Game .
I can see the Airforce fielding some strange ground units that have aircraft weapons convereted to ground Use .

Same with the Naval Units were are they located or have they been intergraded into the USMC .

Rember towards the End of WWII the German Navy and Airforce had Ground units .So why wouldn't the Airforce and Navy have them in WWIII .

[sic1701]

I can see Air Force and Navy officers at any rank in the command structure transitioning (upon proper orders and verification, that is) their troops from their existing billets and specialties to leg infantry if the need were extreme and they were trying to win a war, or just stay alive.

Without fuel to fly aircraft and replacement parts and weapons to maintain and arm them and no real prospects for that situation to change, many Air Force units would not be good for much else at the moment other than to become infantry units or, better yet, assume support positions in the rear so that Army non-combat units can then become leg infantry.

An Air Force general officer or Navy flag officer might have serious reservations about that, as well as tons of operating questions on how to make it all happen, but if the orders were clear and had the proper authority I would think they'd get on board in short order, especially if there was a way to help shorten a nuclear war in the process or ameliorate its effects on civilians they have sworn to protect and defend.

It also stands to reason that at some point in the command structure, AF and Navy officers are given a "What If?" briefing that gives them, in general terms, what's likely to happen in case of nuclear war devastate their bases or (more likely) actions such as electromagnetic pulse that cripple aircraft and ships or shortages of aviation and diesel fuel to propel them. Certainly they don't expect to just be allowed to sit around and twiddle their thumbs and drink coffee while the Army's infantry and mechanized units get overrun in a central European ground war.

[Raellus]

Rember towards the End of WWII the German Navy and Airforce had Ground units .So why wouldn't the Airforce and Navy have them in WWIII .

Actually, it was the other way around. Late in the war, German air force and navy personel were funneled into Volksgrenadier divisions (basically another attempt at reorganizing the standard infantry division TOE due to shortages of manpower and equipment).

At the beginning of the war and in it's first few years, the Germans fielded Luftwaffe field divisions, mostly due to the political influence of Goering. They didn't really distinguish themselves in battle, though. Apart from the Herman Goering division, Luftwaffe field divisions were generally more poorly equipped than regular Wermacht units and they suffered greatly as a result. Most of them were decimated on the Eastern Front. By early 44, there were only a few left and they were soon to be destroyed during the Bagration offensive and the Normandy campaign. Survivors or remnants of the Luftwaffe field divisions were absorbed into the army.

Most historians and analysts agree that the manpower should have been used as replacements for regular army units in the first place. Luftwaffe ground combat divisions were a waste.

I can't see NATO commanders making this same mistake twice. Air Force personel would be assigned to existing army units as replacements and Navy personel would go either to army or Marine units.

[waiting4something]

I think the Navy and Air Force units would be kept within there own branches and used as a rear guard. Mixing them in with soldiers and Marines would be a nightmare. This way they could operate and develop at their own pace. Both sides would not like mixing it up, because they are of completely different mind sets. I mean the only way I could see mixing them with the Army or Marines is if units were reduced so badly from what they once had been. Also, if a total break down of command happened and people were deserting I could see that happening. But as long as there is enough personel in the combat units I think they would not add them into them. There are non combat personel the the Army and Marine Corps that will be doing that.

[Webstral]

I'm sorry to say it But Can you see an airforce General officer in Europe leting his comand be take over as infantry in the Army .


I can see an Air Force officer of any rank following orders. The question is what orders SACEUR issues and for what reasons.

There is a logic to using squadrons of Air Force personnel as rear area security. There is an equal logic to using the warm bodies is whatever fashion circumstances dictate. Goering's approach gives us a fine example of how not to use excess airmen. As a practical matter, it's going to be more efficient to turn airmen into infantry (or whatever is required by the Army in 1998 and afterwards) than to turn civilians into infantry. By the same token, how does one answer the question asked by Joe when he perceives that the Air Force is doing rear area missions:

"What the [expletive deleted] are those Air Force [expletive deleted] doing in the [expletive deleted] rear with the [expletive deleted] gear? There aren't even any more [expletive deleted] planes flying! Why the [expletive deleted] do they get the easy jobs while we live in [expletive deleted] holes in the ground? They're in the [expletive deleted] military, aren't they?"

How does one answer that question with anything better than "Shut your cake hole, Smith!" After 1997, this answer will carry less and less authority (there being no cake left, and all).

All of this said, one of the Joint Chiefs is an airman. How he manages the irresistible pressure to yield some of his personnel to meet the needs of the Army with the very understandable desire to maintain an independent USAF would make for a very interesting thread.

Webstral

[Webstral]

I mean the only way I could see mixing them with the Army or Marines is if units were reduced so badly from what they once had been. Also, if a total break down of command happened and people were deserting I could see that happening.

This is pretty much Twilight: 2000 in a nutshell.

Webstral

[waiting4something]

This is pretty much Twilight: 2000 in a nutshell.

Webstral

Yes, you mean like a bunch of stranglers joining up like how the playing characters are. Yes, that is Twilight 2000. I was thinking of just before you get the "good luck your own your own message".

[Adm.Lee]

IMO, and in any campaign I run, a lot of Air Force and Navy personnel have been funneled (voluntarily, at least at first) into Army replacements. I envision a mass retraining program set up in the winter of 98-99 or 99-00 to retrain them as infantry replacements. Likely each field army and division would have its own training detachment, and then shuffle units out of the line to integrate them over time. To me, the best time to do this would be in the winter, while the formations are in cantonments-- lots of time for small-unit training and patrolling.

Any others, who don't or can't volunteer for combat-arms replacements, would get moved to support & service functions. Possibly the Army could disband its own service functions, and transfer most of the soldiers there to the combat arms, while Air Force & Navy personnel take over the base functions.

OTOH: I remember reading in the '90s that the US Air Force had nearly as many Air police & security squadrons as the Army had infantry battalions. YMMV.

[Kemper Boyd]

I think the Navy and Air Force units would be kept within there own branches and used as a rear guard. Mixing them in with soldiers and Marines would be a nightmare.

Considering that according to the source material, many combat units even have former enemy nationalities serving with them, some old service rivalries might get old real fast.

[Raellus]

Precedent is there. Why make this more complicated? Germany's experience in the later years of WWII supports using surplus to requirements airforce and naval personel as infantry replacements. German AF and N personel were given an abbreviated basic training and then attached to a parent Volkgrenadier unit where they would participate in field excercises. Some of these men couldn't handle the relative hardships of army life and did in fact desert but the vast majority fought on, even when it was fairly obvious to all but the most fanatical Nazi that the war was lost. During the time when the Volksgrenadier units were being formed (late '44 and early '45), Germany was under constant pressure on all fronts but they were still able to reorganize many shattered infantry divisions and bulk them up with AF and N people. During the cantonment phase of the Twilight War (WWIII), there would have been plenty of "down time" to integrate AF and N people into Army units.

If you formed them into homogenous "rear security units" you would only create resentment among line army units and actually heighten intraservice rivalry.

I also think the idea that a former sailor, pilot, or aircrewman wouldn't accept or couldn't handle a transition to infantry is kind of insulting to those folks. The vast majority of soldiers, sailors, and airmen do what they are told by their superiors. Do you really think the navy and airforce would be lobbying to have their people formed into independent, homogenous rear area security (or like) units? Why? How are they going to supply them? Aside from airfield and port security, AF and N brass have little to no experience running those types of units/ops. Who's going to supply them with supplies that the army traditionally receives? Army generals are going to be bawling for replacements and someone's going to tell them that they can't have the thousands of beached sailors and grounded airmen because those groups are going to start taking traditional army missions but be placed under navy and army command. They'd be making the same deadly mistake the Germans made in WWII.

[Abbott Shaull]

Actually, it was the other way around. Late in the war, German air force and navy personel were funneled into Volksgrenadier divisions (basically another attempt at reorganizing the standard infantry division TOE due to shortages of manpower and equipment).

At the beginning of the war and in it's first few years, the Germans fielded Luftwaffe field divisions, mostly due to the political influence of Goering. They didn't really distinguish themselves in battle, though. Apart from the Herman Goering division, Luftwaffe field divisions were generally more poorly equipped than regular Wermacht units and they suffered greatly as a result. Most of them were decimated on the Eastern Front. By early 44, there were only a few left and they were soon to be destroyed during the Bagration offensive and the Normandy campaign. Survivors or remnants of the Luftwaffe field divisions were absorbed into the army.

Most historians and analysts agree that the manpower should have been used as replacements for regular army units in the first place. Luftwaffe ground combat divisions were a waste.

I can't see NATO commanders making this same mistake twice. Air Force personel would be assigned to existing army units as replacements and Navy personel would go either to army or Marine units.

The German Airborne units of WWII were part of the German Air Force too...

[Abbott Shaull]

Once you run out of fuel to fly flight with your fighters and not much need to port facilities. The excess enlisted and officers will be re-trained in Infantry tactics. Air Force and Naval commanders wouldn't like it. They don't have too like it.

Even in WWI the 4th US Infantry Division had a Marine Brigade assigned to it as one of it combat two combat Brigades.

So their is precedents, and these new acquired infantry would be used as replacement for the large part. With that said, the bulk of the Air Force newly trained infantry would go to Army units, with some going back to reinforce the remains of Airbase security details where they still have operational aircraft and can conduct operations.

While the Naval commanders would attempt to funnel their personnel into Marine and Naval Infantry units that were formed with Marne Officers/NCOs in leadership roles and excess naval personnel in all other slots, would be the in their eyes the ideal. The main catch here is having a MEF or MEU around for the Naval commander to justify funneling their personnel into a Marine unit as oppose to sending them to an Army units. Again limited number of these new infantry officers and enlisted personnel would also go back to help base security to bases deemed worthy to defend.

The next thing no matter the Officer rank/Enlisted rank on the food chain back in their native branch, they would be treat as newly minted O-1 for officers and privates for enlisted and would have work their way up the chain by proving themselves so it may be quite a while until O-3, O-4, O-5 would be in a position that would be worthy of their rank. This probably would happen at an very rapid pace than would normally due to them already having rank, but then again they Officers after all. Same with E-5 and higher in the squads, until they show they can lead a fire team, they would be treated as privates and specialist. Once they done that and lead a fire team and they show they are capable of leading a Squad if one is in need of a NCO, then maybe they will be given the spot, and so on back up the chain until they are holding position that in equal to their rank...

[Legbreaker]

Of course it's exceptionally probable that these rear area units would have suffered greatly from nukes.
It's most probable not very many naval or aviation personnel survived.

Those few Air Force personnel remaining, particularly ground crews and pilots, would be far too valuable to reassign to army units. There might not be any fuel to actually fly the handful of planes left more than once every few months, but they'd still require maintaining "just in case".

Naval personnel are in my mind more likely to be reassigned to the army (and a few going to support what's left of the Air Force).

[pmulcahy11b]

Soviet military doctrine also targeted rear area and supply units for special operations raids. Survivors of these raids would be very lucky or skilled.

[Trooper]

Food for thought.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Historical/raft2k/raf2kh.htm

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Historical/raft2k/raf2kr.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_Field_Division

http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/RAF_Regiment

[Webstral]

Of course it's exceptionally probable that these rear area units would have suffered greatly from nukes.
It's most probable not very many naval or aviation personnel survived.

Those few Air Force personnel remaining, particularly ground crews and pilots, would be far too valuable to reassign to army units. There might not be any fuel to actually fly the handful of planes left more than once every few months, but they'd still require maintaining "just in case".

Naval personnel are in my mind more likely to be reassigned to the army (and a few going to support what's of the Air Force).


As with the armies, there are grounds for a variety of outcomes for specific formations of the various air forces. In Europe, tactical nuclear weapons undoubtedly have caused major losses among NATO air force personnel. The tally from chemical weapons probably is not inconsiderable. Raids by Pact special forces will have caused some loss of life, too, along with effects of conventional air-delivered weapons of every description. The same probably can be said in the Far East and perhaps the Middle East.

All of this being said, I think we must allow for significant numbers of airmen to have survived into 1998. The operating premise of the game is that the conventional fighting, the nukes, the chemical weapons, starvation, and disease did not destroy the armies of the world completely. The divisions fight on, although at much-reduced strength. Although air force personnel are particularly vulnerable to WMD, given the concentration of air crews at air bases, not every air base will have been nuked. The USAF owns a number of bases in CONUS that were not attacked. Although many of the personnel will have been sent oversease by the beginning of the nuclear exchange, many will remain.

You've got a point about the value of retaining irreplaceable skills, Leg. Surely the USAF Chief of Staff (and his counterparts among the other air forces of the world) will make that case. The question is how many of these people need to be retained? It's one thing for us to believe that once food supplies can be stabilized the armies of the world can receive more recruits and rifles. It's another thing to believe that additional F-16s are going to be made operational anytime soon. The armies of NATO will be screaming for people to do real work needed today and tomorrow, not in three or six or fifteen years. There is a case to be made for keeping the senior NCOs and warrant officers as airmen. The mid-grade and junior enlisted people have a lot less to recommend them.

I bring this back to an earlier discussion about airships in Colorado because airships offer the USAF a better case for retaining its independence and its manpower than "some day" regarding pre-war systems. By the end of 2000, the pressure on the USAF Chief of Staff to surrender most or all of his remaining people would be nearly insuperable. The arrival of a working airship and some expertise would be a godsend to the USAF Chief of Staff. One of the reasons I believe Colorado will get behind the airship program with such enthusiasm is that the Air Force will throw themselves behind the idea with the abandon of an addict set loose in a police evidence room. A significant airship program offer the USAF something important to do besides wait for conditions to improve and otherwise do what the Army does in Air Force uniforms. As an added bonus, a large airship program probably will be very good for the country.

Webstral

Addendum: The USAF could opt to concentrate on maintaining its C-130 fleet. The requirements in spare parts certainly is going to be much less. Yet given the fuel situation, C-130 use will be quite limited.

[Raellus]

Another argument for AF and N people being transfered to the army is that, AFAIK, T2K canon makes no mention of independent AF or N ground units.

And with Army generals seeing their units dropping to 1/3 of their authorized strength (or less) starting in '98- and undoubtedly clamouring for replacements from at least that point forward- I just can't see the top brass trying to form, train, and equip naval infantry or AF field formations. It would be a collosal waste of manpower and equipment.

It does make sense that the Navy send most of its beached sailors to Marine units, assuming such units are relatively close by.

As for retaining AF techicians "just in case", if the gutted Luftwaffe sent thousands of purposeless men to the front as infantry replacements in late '44 and early '45, instead of keeping them to service Hitler's trickle of jet and rocket-powered Wunderwaffen aircraft, it stands to reason that the USAF could/would do likewise. As Web already pointed out, how many ground crew people are going to be needed to keep the handful of surviving jets and turboprops airborne? 100 to 1 (ground crew to aircraft), 20-1, 10-1, 5-1?

[Matt Wiser]

One example to keep in mind, gents, is the Air Corps Regiment on Bataan (Jan-Apr 42). After the Air Corps was virtually destroyed in the first days of the Philippine Campaign, only the best pilots and maintenance folks were kept to keep the few remaining P-40s and other aircraft flying, and the rest were formed by their squadrons into a provisional infantry regiment, with the proviso that if sufficient aircraft arrived, they would be released back to Air Force control. (it never happened) They were used for rear-area security, and did help in eliminating two Japanese amphibious landings in Bataan's rear in Feb 1942-at a cost-some had over 50% casualties. (other than basic, virtually none had any kind of infantry training and learned on the job-under fire) In T2K, trained air and ground crew would now become theater, if not national level, assets and handled accordingly. Mechanics would find work keeping vehicles and other equipment in running order, and aircrew would be assigned jobs that one with their bachelor's degree might find useful. AF Combat Security Police would help MPs with general security tasks, and AF engineer units would supplement Army (or Marine) engineers in their jobs. The same for medical units.

[Legbreaker]

In 1944 and 45 even the most blinkered of Germans had to admit in the privacy of their own minds that winning wasn't really an option. Survival as a nation, or alternatively, complete destruction to prevent said nation falling into the hands of the enemy was the best that could be hoped for.

In T2K there are still a few aircraft around. Certainly not as many, in fact even 5% of pre-war would be a stretch, but enough that if sufficient fuel and munitions were found they could turn the tide of an enemy offensive.

Yes, there are arguments for transfer of the lower ranks of technicians, etc from the Air Forces, however even if fuel, etc is not available for a number of years, the aircraft do still need maintaining. In 2000 there may be sufficient numbers of senior NCOs available, however these people are likely already old and their numbers will decline. Younger men and women NEED to be retained and trained to replace these senior people.

The same goes for the navy, however with most ships on the bottom, and the generally lower technically of ships (they only have to float, not fly), the need for specialist technicians may be less critical. In the US forces, I tend to agree that naval personnel are likely to be shifted into Marine units, but many countries do not have Marines - these are likely to be send into the general army.

Regardless, technical skills and specialities should be considered when transferring. It's extremely wasteful to have a naval communications specialist sent to an infantry company for example. This may result in a higher percentage of these "reinforcements" being sent to rear area and support units, but...

Take a look at the Soviet 10th TD OOB as a good example of what may happen. Although a paper strength of several hundred soldiers, many of them simply wouldn't be risked in battle unless the Divisions continued existence was under immediate threat.

[Webstral]

In 2000 there may be sufficient numbers of senior NCOs available, however these people are likely already old and their numbers will decline.

I don't know how the Royal Australian Air Force is organized, so I can't comment. In the USAF, senior NCO means E-7 through E-9. These are men (and women) with 15-30 years of experience. The bulk of these people are in their thirties. They're not in immediate need of replacing, if old age be the primary consideration. The E-9s will be older, having 20-30 years of experience. The same goes for the warrants. Even they aren't so old that we should worry that they are about to lose their faculties.

Regardless, technical skills and specialities should be considered when transferring. It's extremely wasteful to have a naval communications specialist sent to an infantry company for example. This may result in a higher percentage of these "reinforcements" being sent to rear area and support units, but...

I agree that using highly trained technicians as riflemen is wasteful of skills. This is why the junior enlisted people go first. In any event, Twilight: 2000 offers such an extreme circumstance that the usual rules of calculation go out the window. Now if the Navy guy arriving in the rear has a superior ability to run whatever equipment is available than the Army guy who is already there, a case can be made for bumping the Army guy to the rifle unit. Nevertheless, the idea that the infantry will continue to take it on the chin so that excess specialists from the Air Force and Navy can sit in the rear and avoid being wasted is unlikely to carry much water after 1998. The need for riflemen after the nuclear exchange will develop a logic all its own. Some specialists will be left as cadre to operate whatever gear remains and to train the next generation. Everyone else is going to have to remember what they learned in Basic.

Webstral

[jester]

I would also think ALOT of the surplus personel with specialty training could be put to work repairing much of the damaged infrastructure on bases and camps and in the more critical sectors of the community.

I would think power, water and transportation networks would be the key facilities everywhere these specialists could be used to repair and rebuild.

And then we also have the thousands of displaced persons who the surplus military personel could tend and manage as well. Creating lists and rosters of who the refugees are where they are from and what they do. Find the security risks, criminals, civilian specialsts, and people who can be put to work. As well as lists of people who have been seperated from their families for family reunification.

I can see ALOT of work for these surplus personel.

Like the russians did, some could manage unit farms, naval personel could even run small fishing vessels or repair civilian fishing fleets and keep them repaired and running. And still others could manage other activities, like salvaging parts from the damaged items, be it circuits from electronics, or copper from bad wire for use either as parts to repair new equipment, or raw materiel for making something new.

[natehale1971]

Actually... the Air Force General or Navy Admiral wouldn't have to give up operational control over the personnel under them... The US Navy has created Naval Infantry Battalions in the past. And in the T2k universe, I can see this being done on a larger scale for both the USN and USAF.

The USAF could easily put together 'squadrons' of guntrucks based around field expediant guntrucks just like they had been with combat aircraft with their ground crews acting as support roles carrying out area control and security duties.

The USN would assemble their naval infantry battalions for similar roles... or actually assign them to the marine divisions to fill out/round out the marine TOE.

[Doc Firefly]

I'm working on my American TO&E for my Savage Twilight Campaign and I included Air Force "provincial battalions" Mostly these are excess USAF personnel acting as "combat forces" In CONUS. I figure any troops with military training would be used as local security/ "best we can do" fighting troops. I also know that I wouldn't want a large number of troops sitting around doing nothing due to lack of planes to fly. I figure these troops would all have M16 with a few M60 as support. I also gave each battalion 6 fabricated 81mm mortars for "teeth". These battalions would be mounted in 5/4 ton trucks and a few other cargo vehicles, with some lucky enough to have Peecekeepers, M705's and M1077's. They wouldn't stand a chance against a Soviet MR Regiment, but for local patrols, anti-marauder duties and projection of power, they would be the best thing.

I also did the same thing with excess navel personnel, only at the heart of each Battalion was a group of marines to act as sergeants/command staff, and a "flying platoon" of veterans to provided a little "umph." The Marines would have been made up of Marines recently brought back to service from hospitals and those separated from their units. The navel units would have fewer support weapons, no armored vehicles and mostly civilian transport, but like the USAF units they would be "better than nothing."

[Abbott Shaull]

Like I stated in the Air Force and Naval commanders would retain certain amount of their force to help maintain what is left that make usable what facilities they have to maintain what left of their forces. Also with their bases still potential to raid would beef security forces, but there would still be more than enough forces left over that they would have to be turned over to Army or Marine units. In some case they would form their own 'Infantry Battalions', 'Security Battalions', 'Support Battalions' and at time 'Infantry Brigade/Regiments' (much like the school brigade from Fort Bliss of the US Army), while in other cases, especially if they are sent to established Divisions to help make up for the losses, they would be used as individual replacements. It would depend on the 'local' command structure. Sometime the local Air Force or Naval commander would be the ranking member and they would prefer to have their men not assigned as cannon fodder, so it would depend on the location of the base where the excess personnel were coming from. Yeah, lot of them would/could be used as more or less local security force with the goal to preserve force while claiming they were doing the best they could do....

[Webstral]

Like I stated in the Air Force and Naval commanders would retain certain amount of their force to help maintain what is left that make usable what facilities they have to maintain what left of their forces. Also with their bases still potential to raid would beef security forces, but there would still be more than enough forces left over that they would have to be turned over to Army or Marine units. In some case they would form their own 'Infantry Battalions', 'Security Battalions', 'Support Battalions' and at time 'Infantry Brigade/Regiments' (much like the school brigade from Fort Bliss of the US Army), while in other cases, especially if they are sent to established Divisions to help make up for the losses, they would be used as individual replacements. It would depend on the 'local' command structure. Sometime the local Air Force or Naval commander would be the ranking member and they would prefer to have their men not assigned as cannon fodder, so it would depend on the location of the base where the excess personnel were coming from. Yeah, lot of them would/could be used as more or less local security force with the goal to preserve force while claiming they were doing the best they could do....

I'm glad you mentioned the variability of possibilities. As we've seen in Twilight: 2000, the situation varies considerably from locale to locale, region to region, and theater to theater. Assuming that the Joint Chiefs issue guidelines for handling "excess" USAF and USN personnel, the execution of those orders will vary considerably from place-to-place. Almost any of the ideas put forth are possible in the wide, wide world of Twilight: 2000.

Webstral

[chico20854]

ISTR King's Ransom has details of a USAF Security Squadron, formed of excess rear-area personnel, as part of the garrison of Lordegan. As you say Web, one option in one command worldwide, and CENTCOM is a different beast than the rest of the US Military in 2000-1.

[Abbott Shaull]

The thing is Central Command has always been horse of different color when compared with the other major combat joint commands. Where South Command, North Command, the joint Command for Europe and Pacific Command have been overlay of existing forces and their chain of command that has been established for several years before anyone thought of it being need for say guys in the Army to communicate with those in the Navy or Marine and for each to understand entirely what the other was talking about. While they were at it they should talk to Air Force dudes too.

Central Command was able to achieve a lot of it inter-operational due to the fact that many of the sub-units only come together to play when the Command is active in it theater of operation and with the lack of bases in said theater everyone was forced to share the few resources from the start. In many cases the creation of the Rapid Deployment Force and the later formed into Central Command directly resulted in the creation of the Special Operation Command once it was realized that Green Beenies, Rangers, Air Force Special Ops and Naval Seals talked to each other in Central Command quite effectively and maybe they should talk to each other on regular basis to help eliminate the inter service rivalary...

Just some thoughts..

[Webstral]

After some thought, I decided to take up the challenge of creating a naval infantry battalion that would be able to maintain its independence from the Army. No TO&E yet.

US Naval Infantry Battalion 2

US Naval Infantry Battalion 2 was brought into being on August 11, 1998 by amalgamating personnel from the US Navy, USMC, and US Coast Guard. In the wake of the evacuation of the military facilities in San Diego at the start of the Second Mexican-American War, literally thousands of seamen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen were brought to the San Francisco Bay Area. The greatly reduced number of operable Navy vessels left the Navy in San Francisco with “excess� personnel. The Army had been demanding the transfer of personnel from the sister services since the nuclear exchanges began the previous July; in mid-1998 those demands assumed an even greater level of urgency.

As a compromise solution, the Navy divided its personnel in the San Francisco Bay Area into three groups: some would remain to support ongoing naval activity and maintain facilities, some would be released directly into the Army, and some would be formed into a Department of the Navy security unit that would release Army units in the Bay for duty elsewhere. The new Naval Infantry Battalion 2, which soon earned the moniker Blue Two, used its unique blend of experience and available equipment to form a waterborne patrol and quick reaction force. As of April 1, 2001 Blue Two operates on the waters and ashore from the Golden Gate to Sacramento and from Petaluma to San Jose.

Location: San Francisco Bay (HQ: Alameda)
Subordination: Sixth US Army
Manpower: 500
AFV: 0 (the battalion does possess a number of armed boats)



Blue Two is a compromise solution that has worked quite well, even though the solution makes few of the higher-ups happy. The consolidation of much of the Navy’s surviving West Coast assets at Alameda in San Francisco left the Navy in the awkward position of having a large number of personnel who were not performing their MOS functions. Under enormous pressure from the Army and the USMC, the Navy had been transferring less-critical personnel to replacement depots for employment in the ground forces. The unique situation and geography of the San Francisco Bay Area offered the Navy the opportunity to create a force of Department of the Navy personnel who could conduct security missions with an efficiency and effectiveness the Army could not match.

In a nutshell, Naval Infantry Battalion 2 is organized as a waterborne infantry formation intended for security and combat operations throughout the San Francisco Bay estuary. Utilizing its unique mix of Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard personnel and equipment, Blue Two patrols the waterways throughout the Bay Area and assists local militia and law enforcement. Although supplied and supported by the Navy, Blue Two is under the operational control of Sixth US Army. Troops of the Blue Two combat the re-emergence of piracy in the Bay and ensure that waterborne commerce can move freely. Though the “squids� of Blue Two are equipped as light infantry, they can count on fire support from their watercraft.

Sixth US Army would like to have full control over the men and resources of Blue Two. However, the command recognizes that supporting Blue Two out of Army resources would be undesirable, if not unworkable. Besides, the squids do the waterborne job quite well. Periodically, the Sixth Army absorbs some trained replacements out of Blue Two, which somewhat satiates the Army’s appetite for manpower.

The Navy at Alameda dislikes providing logistical support and manpower for an organization that is under the control of the Army. However, Blue Two basically does the same job under the Army that the Navy would have them do. The periodic transfer of riflemen from Blue Two to the Army is a genuine irritant; however, Blue Two actively poaches from the militia of the Bay Area. The most promising recruits manage to stay in the Navy.

Tactics and techniques for water operations largely came from Navy and Coast Guard personnel. Expertise in infantry operations and landing operations came from the Marines who were available. Former members of municipal SWAT teams rounded out the capabilities of Blue Two. Blue Two seldom operates very far from water. While riverine patrols reach as far inland as Sacramento, very rarely does a member of Blue Two get to Pleasanton, South San Jose, West Marin, or Napa. Despite its proximity to San Francisco, Pacifica is essentially outside the area of operations of Naval Infantry Battalion 2.


Webstral

[stilleto69]

Web-

I like it. Very well done.

[Legbreaker]

It's good, but I wonder if your numbers are a bit high? My thoughts are than maybe 200-300 would be more accurate with only a handful of marines (recovering from wounds received elsewhere) available. Police, etc have their own organisations on the whole which they're likely to remain with.

It's possible though that civilians may have been recruited, especially those with prior military experience or relevant skill sets. These people might be enough to add say a further 20-40% to the manpower (much more and it becomes a civilian force rather than navy).

[Webstral]

Leg,

I toyed with the numbers a bit before deciding on 500. This isn't a final number, really; however, I thought that too many fewer would render the organization entirely incapable of doing its job.

There are a couple of factors that I (very imprecisely) tried to work into my consideration. The first is how many people are available in the San Francisco Bay Area as of April 1, 2001. The pre-war Bay Area population is 10 million. I have somehat arbitrarily killed off 60% of these folks, leaving 4 million. The number of survivors I chose reflects, albeit in a very distant way, the number of survivors in the US according to Howling Wilderness. As of April 1, 2001, 48% of the pre-war US population is still alive. The number of casualties as a percentage of the pre-war population varies tremendously from place to place. In Utah, something like 80% of the pre-war population is still alive. Although numbers weren't given for Nevada, I feel confident that the Howling Wilderness blurb about Nevada supports an 85% reduction of the pre-war population. (GDW may have intended more. Before one of you guys pointed out that there is agriculture in several locations in Nevada, I assumed the whole place was tumbleweeds. GDW may have assumed the same.)

I chose to reduce the overall population of the Bay Area by 60% because the place is heavily urbanized, and urban centers generally will suffer greater depopulation than rural areas. Nevertheless, the climate and soil are highly favorable in many parts of the Bay Area. Agriculture continues to be practiced in the South Bay and in other pockets throughout the area. Also, the Central Valley is close-at-hand. Growing food locally and obtaining it from the Central Valley gives the Bay Area folks a leg up compared to a number of other urban areas throughout the western US. Therefore, a 40% survival rate, which places overall casualties at a somewhat higher level than the national average, seemed a reasonable starting point to me.

Four million is still a fair number of people. If a mere one percent of the population joins the local militias, we're still talking about a total mobilization of 40,000. Obviously, though, not every part of every community is playing ball with the rest of the Bay. There are some communities, or sections of communities, that are under the control of gangs and petty dictators. However, the presence of a large MilGov force relatively nearby should achieve much the effect that federal forces were supposed to play prior to the start of the Second Mexican-American War. Large groups of thugs, bandits, and would-be marauders will tend to attract attention. Control of the Central Valley and the Bay Area seems to have been a priority for MilGov. Therefore, I see the dynamic here being more favorable to law and order in the Bay Area and in Sacramento than in Southern California or even in nearby Humboldt County. Order can established at a higher equilibrium than in Boston, Phoenix, Las Vegas, or Reno. A higher equilibrium suggests that a larger pool of recruits is available for the Navy, and by extension for Blue Two.

The question of a civilian v Navy organization is a good one. I think the game itself supports the existence of a lot of relative newcomers. I'm not familiar with the v2 character generation system, but the v1 rules tend to generate soldiers who have been in the Army for less than three years. I've rolled up a lot of characters with less than two years of combat experience. Honestly, I was envisioning a number of post-Exchange troops in Blue Two in the realm of 50%. The true FNGs are going to be a handicap, but the guys with six months of operational experience generally should be able to pull their own weight. I'd agree, though, that they will be different than the pre-war Navy guys (and gals).

The cops are another issue. I think you're right that they won't necessarily be champing at the bit to join the Navy. On the other hand, some will have lost their families. Others just won't be able to cope with the changes they have endured. There are literally thousands of law enforcement folks in the Bay Area. A handful will have a lot to offer Blue Two. I agree that the overwhelming majority will stay with their departments, and this is where most of the cops belong. A few will want or need a change of scene. And surely the Navy will be actively recruiting in the Bay Area.

On the other hand, there is the issue of manpower in Sixth US Army. As of mid-2000, the various divisions and brigades of the army are operating at very low strength. It makes no sense for Blue Two to be a big, healthy organization while Sixth US Army is wasting away. So while I could see bringing the operational strength of Blue Two to 400 to be more in line with what Howling Wilderness gives the local Army units, 200-300 is just too small for me--especially given the manpower resources at hand.

Yes, I think 400 might be a better number. It's far too few for the mission at hand, but that's Twilight: 2000.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

400 or so seems quite reasonable to me also. Just enough to make an impact without being strong enough to do anything really significant.

I'd be inclined to reduce the city population a bit further though - many would have fled to rural areas when the threat of nukes became a reality, more would have been conscripted (but perhaps only a hundred thousand at most I'm guessing, probably less), while even more might have taken advantage of the chaos of post nuke US to take over abandoned and weakly defended farmlands. There's almost certainly more factors I haven't thought about also.

So, perhaps decreasing from 4 million to say 3 million might be worth considering? The extra million are likely still alive, just no longer residents...
This would still make it a very populous centre, especially when compared to say New York.

[Webstral]

99th Security Group, USAF (previously Nellis Group)

A pre-war USAF Security Forces (SF) formation, the 99th Security Group belonged to the 99th Air Base Wing at Nellis AFB in Nevada at the start of the conflict in Europe in October, 1996. Although some elements of the 99th SG were sent overseas, the basis of the group remained in Nevada throughout 1997. The group’s combat readiness was affected by the transfer of virtually all of the available AFV to make good on the heavy fighting vehicle losses being suffered by Army formations fighting overseas. By November, however, 99th SG largely had been backfilled by new light AFV coming off American assembly lines and refitted Warsaw Pact vehicles—most notably the BTR-80A2.

Although the surgical strategic nuclear exchange at the end of November, 1997 did not directly touch Nevada, the results were disastrous nonetheless. A 20Mt airburst over central North America knocked out the electricity grid nation-wide. Las Vegas was full to overflowing with revelers trying to escape the anxieties of a war that already had turned nuclear overseas. Hundreds of thousands of Americans attempted to flee Las Vegas when the lights went out. Rioting, looting, and violent crime of every description exploded across the city within twelve hours of the nuclear attacks on Los Angeles.

Into the chaos stepped government forces. Since the Alarm(1) in July, the City of Las Vegas, Clark County, and Nellis AFB all had been feverishly preparing for the worst while attempting to pretend that the worst was highly unlikely. The military, the police, and civil defense forces made valiant efforts to control both the flood of civilians out of Las Vegas and the situation inside Las Vegas. The results were mixed at best. Violence erupted among the long columns of vehicles jammed along the few roads leading out of southern Nevada. Loss of life was second only to the number of injuries sustained. Desperate and/or enterprising civilians found ways around the government checkpoints and roadblocks. Broken-down and out-of-gas vehicles soon littered the Nevada desert. Few of the stranded motorists survived.

Inside the city, rioting and looting spread out of control despite the best efforts of law enforcement. 99th Security Group, which was greatly reinforced by non-SF airmen, struggled to aid municipal police in securing vital facilities throughout the city. The heavy firepower of the SF fighting vehicles proved a major deterrent to even the most dedicated rioters; however, there were not enough fighting vehicles to control more than small sections of the city. Fires erupted and spread through whole neighborhoods, checked only by existing and hastily-created firebreaks.

Recognizing that municipal government was handicapped by the threat to the families of civil servants, the commander of 99th Wing invited police and other government agents to move their families to emergency facilities on the base. Space would be at a premium, but food, water, and shelter would be available.


Within a week, more than half of the pre-war population of Las Vegas was dead or dying or had fled the city. The survivors were faced with a badly damaged city with virtually no electricity and very little water. Municipal water was being pumped by emergency generators for brief periods every day. Markets had been emptied, and stores of food and fuel had been appropriated by the government. In some areas, gangs ran rampant. Government forces attempted to maintain law and order and establish a working rationing system with modest success.

The 99th Air Base Wing quickly became compelled by events to reorient itself. Air operations were virtually forgotten in the scramble to mitigate the human disaster unfolding at the base perimeter. Over the course of the next few weeks, the uniformed personnel of the base consolidated into two groups: the security forces, and the people keeping the security forces in action. Civilian contractors and even dependents were pressed into either of the two groups. Little else could be done until some sort of order could be imposed on Las Vegas.

Within two weeks, the security situation had improved significantly because government forces controlled most of the remaining food and fuel. It was possible to restore some of the flow of electricity from Hoover Dam, which eased the water crisis for the remaining Las Vegans.

A new crisis emerged almost immediately, however: disease. Poor sanitation combined with unburied bodies that froze at night but thawed during the day led to outbreaks of cholera and other diseases that would affect so much of the rest of the country later in the year. Health officials were nearly helpless. City Hall moved to Nellis AFB, which also became the base of operations for most of the remaining civil services of Las Vegas. Civilians died by the hundreds each day.

During this time, 99th Security Group continued to patrol the surviving neighborhoods of Las Vegas and to supervise food distribution. Increasingly, LVPD and USAF personnel became intermingled until there was little practical distinction. Throughout December and into January, the security forces attempted to break up gangs and enforce law and order. Heated firefights caused massive loss of life among the gangs but also whittled away the manpower of government forces.

The federal government instituted its triage measure for the purpose of prioritizing food and fuel distribution nationwide. Las Vegas was virtually at the bottom of the list. Rations grew tighter, leading to more and more desperation and violence among the dwindling survivors of Las Vegas.

Elsewhere in the state, things were hard but more manageable. Ranching products were available, along with some food grown in the northern and western parts of the state. As the food deliveries from elsewhere in the country dried up, Nellis AFB drew up a requisitioning plan to distribute excess from elsewhere in Nevada to the survivors of Las Vegas. A miniature relocation plan was put into effect, the intent being to move as many of the hungry Las Vegan survivors as possible to the agricultural areas of the state in time to aid in planting.

Unfortunately, the plan was not very successful. Cut-throat competition among the remaining gangs in Las Vegas had produced a clear front-runner under a man calling himself the Shogun. His gang extorted food from the Las Vegas survivors and defied the best efforts of 99th Security Group to destroy them. Morale among the airmen and police was very low by spring—a fact the Shogun was able to exploit. He took in deserters and found ways of rewarding corruption. A large portion was what food came into Las Vegas was diverted to the de facto warlord of much of Las Vegas. Some survivors were transported to other locations in the state, however.

By May, it was clear that the gangs controlled most of the survivors of Las Vegas by night and whenever security forces were not present. The commander of 99th Wing launched one last effort to break the hold of the bandits over Las Vegas. After three days of fighting and dozens of casualties, the Air Force called off its offensive.

On June 2, Mexico invaded the United States. Soon thereafter, 99th Wing was ordered to move all remaining personnel and assets to Sacramento in support of Sixth US Army. The withdrawal from Nellis AFB was contested by the Shogun, resulting in further losses in lives and materiel.

The Las Vegas Police Department had 2100 officers on the day before the nuclear attacks. Upon arrival in Sacramento, 450 remained, including all auxiliary and reserve police, absorbed sheriff’s deputies, and inductees. 99th Security Group reached a maximum strength of 2600 immediately after the nuclear strikes. Six months later, the group fielded 600.

99th Security Group continued to operate for the rest of 1998, providing security throughout the northern half of the Central Valley. On January 4, 1999, the group was disbanded; its personnel and equipment were distributed throughout Sixth US Army to make good on losses suffered during the previous year. As of 2001, airmen and police from southern Nevada still can be found serving throughout central California.

Webstral

(1) The first use of nuclear weapons in Europe and in China. Civil disorder in the US was worse than at any other time in history. After the worst was over, authorities effectively had a dress rehearsal for a real nuclear attack to analyze. Many claim that without the lessons of the Alarm and the preparations taken in response to the Alarm, the recovery of the United States from the Twilight War might have been delayed by a generation or more.

[Webstral]

400 or so seems quite reasonable to me also. Just enough to make an impact without being strong enough to do anything really significant.

I'm not sure I see not doing anything really significant as a priority. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm not supportive of the direction Howling Wilderness goes in. Though not a major combatant, Blue Two can make a substantial contribution to the recovery of the Bay Area by securing the water routes along which much of the post-Exchange commerce will move. If you mean, though, that I'm not introducing a major new combatant into the Sixth US Army AO, then I believe we're on the same page.

I'd be inclined to reduce the city population a bit further though - many would have fled to rural areas when the threat of nukes became a reality, more would have been conscripted (but perhaps only a hundred thousand at most I'm guessing, probably less), while even more might have taken advantage of the chaos of post nuke US to take over abandoned and weakly defended farmlands. There's almost certainly more factors I haven't thought about also.

So, perhaps decreasing from 4 million to say 3 million might be worth considering? The extra million are likely still alive, just no longer residents...
This would still make it a very populous centre, especially when compared to say New York.

I'll give it some thought.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

If you mean, though, that I'm not introducing a major new combatant into the Sixth US Army AO, then I believe we're on the same page.
That's exactly where I'm coming from. Such a weak force would also have little left spare for rebuilding tasks in the first couple of years and therefore would impact only slightly (if at all) on previously written materials.

Re the 99th, although obviously written for your own game world, I think it would transplant quite well with only minimal changes into a canon scenario. Well thought out and written, I can see events following a very similar course.

[Ironside]

Good stuff Webstral! Very believeable and reads very well. More like a novel than a bald unit description.

[Webstral]

Thank you kindly. In this case, it helps that I'm not starting from scratch. I had to do some background work on how the Shogun and the Gunryo [Silver Shogunate] came into being. Figuring out what happens with the Air Force units at Nellis and the Army units passing through Nevada was part and parcel with creating a workable history of the Gunryo. In effect, my piece on 99th Security Group is a third draft.

Webstral

[kota1342000]

This thread has some really outstanding points and ideas, and it got me to thinking about some adventures I had run in the past because I had thought there was a "hole" in the history where the USAF and USN should have been. "Shoestring Wing" is a game block I ran for a convention where the 47th TFW has decided they were sick of not having fuel or parts for their aircraft, so took a different tack and built ultralights patterned after the t-bird. "Saving Davis Monthan" is another one that came from two thoughts; more USAF ideas and lack of any real "WOW" special operations missions from the twilight war.

but the thread here has given me another thought, do as you want with it, but imagine if the Joint Chiefs in Colorado Springs put a group together to figure out the feasibility of restoring air capability to the force. The Chiefs called the group the Air Operations Joint Staff (AOJS), and what follows is a decrypt from a teletype message sent to them after a week of their deliberation.

99052616280
DTG; 0110151800Z
TOP SECRET
ROMEO ECHO
AUTHENTICATION AS;
TD6168
FROM C3BAFB
TO C3CMAFB

MESSAGE FOLLOWS AS

15 October 2001

From; Air Operations Joint Staff, Planning and Operations Sections (S-2/S-3), Buckley Air Force Base
To; Chief of Staff, United States Air Force, Cheyenne Mountain Air Force Base

CC; Chairman, United States Joint Chiefs of Staff
Chief of Staff United States Army
Chief of Naval Operations, United States Navy
Commandant United States Marine Corps
CG USAF Air Logistics Command, Buckley AFB
CG USAF Air Development Command, Nellis AFB
CG USAF Western Air Defense Command, Mountain Home AFB

Reconstitution of Air Power for United States Forces

The past five years of conflict have seen the widespread taxing of all conventional and nuclear forces beyond the breaking point in many cases. Current situations for many subordinate units are widely varied, with some areas of operation being well in hand, and others being nearly hopeless with little chance of extricating the forces in theatre. Some kind of change must be necessary to bring favorable decision to certain areas while allowing areas that are under control to be able to project the ability to bring order to adjacent areas, by force if necessary.
Since 1946 the United States Air Force has served its country honorably through several conflicts, and this conflict is no different. What has changed is the nature of the conflict, with thermonuclear weapons being used to deny access to vital supplies of energy and to destroy the means with which transportation of strategic resources are moved. In short, the US Air Force has been bled white by both conventional conflict and civil disorder, and additionally has taken severe damage from nuclear attack by the Soviet Strategic Rocket Forces.
The result is that the USAF has fed personnel to the US Army in roles as replacements, sometimes as individuals and sometimes as small units. Air Force facilities around the world have come to function as farmland, safe areas for civilians, bases of technology, and rest areas for US Army units. The air operations of the USAF have dropped to near nothing as the lack of replacement parts, and most critically fuel have grounded nearly all remaining aircraft as effectively as if they had been lost to enemy action (exceptions being AFCENT Air Forces US Central Command, and AFSOUTH; Air Forces Southern Command, respectively in Iran and Nicaragua where small but significant reserves of aviation fuel can be processed from local petroleum).

It is the judgment of the Air Operations Joint Staff that the USAF must take the lead in reconstituting the air power of the United States as quickly as possible. While supporting the other services is a vital task, deciding to leave aircraft in the list of “things to do for later�, or doing nothing at all is in effect an abandonment of the primary mission of the USAF. This would be without need, reason, or excuse. There is no force at all at this time which holds air superiority over much of the areas of operation in question, the sky has become an untaken objective.

The following are the primary recommendations from the conference of the Air Operations Joint Staff, held at Buckley AFB under orders from the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff on October 5 thru 9, 2001.

1. Revision of Technology
The primary method of aircraft power, the jet engine, is one of the most complicated machines in common use known to civilization, even before the current conflict removed many of the logistical pieces necessary to keep military jet engines in running form. It is therefore suggested that a step backward be taken to propeller driven aircraft of several sorts and kinds for all types of air operations. While we are not suggesting the scrapping of jet aircraft that lack only for fuel, we are suggesting that the simplification of aircraft is necessary to revive the force.
Propellers have to be driven however, and it is suggested that conventional piston engines be used for this purpose. Not only are there a wide variety of these types of engines still available for salvage and rebuilding, they could be operated using the same types of alternative energy methods in use by the US Army to keep their armored fighting vehicles moving.
The above point also implies the scratch building of aircraft that will be able to mount such combinations of engine and propeller, and though there are many solutions, the AOJS has been unable to come to a consensus on a small number of specific aircraft types and forms with which to begin the reconstitution of the force. After deliberation, it has been decided to recommend that type specific airframes may be counter-productive to the effort, and encourage local Wing Commanders to decide on aircraft forms with higher headquarters giving guidance and advice as needed.

2. Revision of Fuel Supplies and Mission Endurance
US Army Logistics figures for fuel consumption for vehicles of several kinds has been invaluable for our recommendations, and is as follows;
-Operations by piston driven aircraft operating with ethanol or methanol can expect to have their combat range cut by 65% to 75%.
-Operations by piston driven aircraft operating with compressed methane can also expect to have their combat ranges cut in half.
The AOJS has also studied the use of electrical power for aircraft, but has been deemed impractical for piston driven aircraft, though may be useful for other types of aircraft (covered later).

3. Revision of Missions and Mission Profile
The resulting change of aircraft types and capability will force a change in the types of operation that the reconstituted air units will be able to carry out. Missions such as strategic bombing, suppression of enemy air defense, and deep penetration raids will not be possible, while air to air combat would be superfluous in most theatres as any air unit building and using aircraft by these recommendations will likely be the first aircraft in use in the respective areas of operation to be flying in almost two years.
It is therefore recommended that aircraft be tailored for the following missions;
-Air to ground attack/support
-Reconaissance and intelligence gathering
-Light cargo and airlift
-Aeromedical evacuation
We also recommend that aircraft be tailored to perform at least two of the above missions to provide for greater flexibility of the force.
It is also obvious by the limitations now placed on future air units operating under these recommendations that air units will have to operate much closer to battle areas than was practical before. The reasons for moving airfields further back from the battle areas (reduction of threat from theatre chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons and greater security), have been rendered moot by the use of tactical and strategic weapons during the previous years of the conflict. Furthermore, the inability to maintain such sensitive weapons systems that could be used against airfields in the past helps to provide greater security for forward operating airstrips and improvised air bases in the future. It is also hoped that the re-emergence of the technology to operate such weapon systems will come about only after the resumption of peace time operations.

4. Use of Alternative Aircraft
From field reports made available to the AOJS by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it is obvious that alternative aircraft are already in operation in several theatres of war, including Colorado and Arkansas (MILGOV USAF experiments at Buckley AFB with airships, and the same types of operations by a New America Cell based in Arkansas) and Germany (the 47th TFW’s use of Ultralight aircraft for light battlefield tasks). It is the recommendation of the AOJS that further resources be placed in the development and use of lighter than air craft for military tasks, basically the same tasks listed in the missions section listed above.
Electrical power could also be used as alternative energy in this case, as airships may be able to use manufactured photovoltaic cells (given that these resources will take time to develop). Range and mission endurance could be at least doubled using this option if developed correctly.




Discussion Points

The vulnerability of all types of aircraft listed in this recommendation has been a source of great debate for the AOJS. It has been pointed out that though aircraft have faded from the skies over the battlefield, many types of anit-aircraft weapon systems have not. While an aircrew could not expect to have to deal with the threat of guided anti-aircraft missiles very often, ground and vehicle based gun systems such as the Soviet ZSU-23-4 would pose a very serious threat to aircraft even without the vehicle’s acquisition radar. It is the final judgment of the AOJS that the worth of battlefield aircraft returning to support the ground forces would be worth running this risk, and that pilots, planning staff and intelligence personnel will be able to overcome the disadvantage inherent in this balance.

In addition, the reports of the US Navy 9th Fleet (formerly US Coast Guard Pacific) having received several tankers of petroleum from CENTCOM at the Portland and Seattle basing areas has provided an opportunity for the use of aircraft from all four services. Use of small refinery locations that have not been the targets of thermonuclear attack would be able to produce amount of aviation grade fuel for conventional aircraft that have thus far been grounded. While obvious that this fuel should be husbanded for use in essential operations, it is a light at the end of the tunnel for several west coast air units.

Conclusion
Since the invention of the airplane by the Wright Brothers in 1903, the air forces of the world have had to adapt to changing conditions and requirements of the battlefield by upgrading the aircraft of their forces and their capabilities. In light of the technological “dark age� that has befallen the world, it is imperative that someone take a step forward by re-introducing a piece of technology before it is lost to us for good. In this case, it is the aircraft for operations of war, if for no other reason to assist in re-establishing order and providing a way forward for the resumption of peace between the nations of the world.
The way forward in this case, is a “step backward� to previous types and forms of airframes and powerplants in which to make this possible. Early air forces (such as those used in the First World War) operated mostly by supporting the ground forces, and though air power did not have the strength to bring decision by itself, we are now in a completely different situation. Re-constituted air power can be used not only for combat, but for recovery purposes as well, and should be pursued as fast as resources permit.

LtCol Jason Content, USAF, Chairman AOJS
Maj Jennifer Doyle, USAF
Maj Tom Stilton, USAF
Lt Cmdr Andrew Kearney, USN
LTC David McCauley, USA
Capt Arthur Payton, USMC

END MESSAGE END MESSAGE
__________________________________________________ _________
DISENGAGE



Just some thoughts heehee :D

[Dog 6]

now that I like.
here is an idea to think about, prop planes like the A-1's have flown in flak so think you could walk on it and more times then not brought its pilot home. so the lighter flak guns one would be likely to find would not make the threat of flying to great imo.

[kota1342000]

Thanks Dog, and good point about the Skyraiders. The Sandys sure took some punishment. I think it would depend on type of airframe with respect for resistance to the lighter calibers these days, an A-1D style aircraft would work great, but the ultralights like we used in Shoestring Wing would REALLY be iffy.

[Webstral]

Kota,

I like the creative format. I also think it likely that surviving USAF leaders would be pushing for the recreation of a working air force--none more so than the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. How well these schemes measure up against the situation in CONUS is another matter. You've got a good point about the feasibility of propeller-driven aircraft vis-a-vis jets.

I like your emphasis on strike missions, recce, and light cargo. Ironically, a reborn USAF might look much like the Red Air Force of WW2. I think your emphasis on multi-role capability is also appropriate.

One could invest a great deal of electronic ink on figuring out what resources are available and who gets priority on them. As everyone here knows, I'm a firm supporter of airships as the primary contribution the USAF can make to solving the nation's problems. This basically would turn the USAF into a MAC organization. This is not sexy. A Skyraider-type aircraft would arouse much greater excitement. Some ground commanders may believe that CAS will do them more good than an improved logistical system that would result from prioritizing airships over attack aircraft, whatever resources were available.

Anyway, very interesting.

Webstral

[kota1342000]

Yes, In retrospect, maybe more emphasis on airships would be in order for the study, weak spot for the idea we can correct with a little typing.
And I wholeheartedly agree with the situation for CONUS...deployment or even implementation could be spotty at best.

I think what we really need is a map based order of battle for...well, everywhere. Im building one with microsoft streets and trips; outside of the US its not the best maps but works just fine for a strategic locations board. Ill let everyoone know how it goes.

[kota1342000]

YEEK
Glad I found where we put this thread; I was building a message for a player group getting ready to start The Last Submarine...and saved over the original air force message I posted here.

[firewalker]

99th Security Group, USAF


On June 2, Mexico invaded the United States. Soon thereafter, 99th Wing was ordered to move all remaining personnel and assets to Sacramento in support of Sixth US Army. The withdrawal from Nellis AFB was contested by the Shogun, resulting in further losses in lives and materiel.



I’m pretty sure I didn’t notice this on the first read through (the nice side of thread necromancy wot). How much was the shoguns attack on the base evacuation about trying to grab a little extra gear/loot and how much was it about him relishing that he’s a parasite. On one hand the air force is moving out no more patrols (bad guy celebrations woohooo) but on the other hand…..no more food deliveries?

[Webstral]

The Shogun realizes from the get-go that Vegas is doomed. In a sense, he’s in Vegas during Thanksgiving 1997 because he’s exploiting the folks who are denying reality with a will. I’ve been fleshing out his character a bit in response to my wife’s challenge to turn Silver Shogunate into a graphic novel. I won’t go into much detail, but suffice to say that the Shogun is a bit of a dichotomous character in that he combines fatalism with irrepressible opportunism.

Anyway, the Shogun sees the writing on the wall for southern Nevada from the moment EMP knocks out the lights. He knows what’s coming. However, his scheme is to keep himself body-surfing the crest of the tsunami of collapse until the shape of things becomes more apparent. To that end, he begins gathering intelligence about the state of affairs in the rest of Nevada months before 99th Security Group gets redeployed to California. The end of food deliveries to Nellis AFB is a problem, but not an unforeseen one. The opportunity to acquire equipment and turncoats so that the productive areas of Nevada can be brought under the Shogun’s control all the quicker is something he builds towards even before Milgov issues the warning order.

[Legbreaker]

While working on my pre 2000 offensive 2nd Marines OOB I noticed the huge number of pre-war machines and men allocated to the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, many of which would not likely have survived the preceding years of war to take part in the 2000 offensive.

The Free City of Krakow (page 38) states:
Aircraft of various types, especially helicopters, have been stored in barns and hangars across Europe, but they are useless without fuel, and many have been stripped for parts useful to other endeavours.

This got me thinking about those weapons, in particular the guns, and specifically the 20mm autocannons. Until 1994, the US fielded the M167 Vulcan which fires the same round as almost all the 20mm aircraft cannons (20x102mm). The M167 was replaced with the Avenger in the Marines. With the scarcity of Stinger missiles by 2000, I'm thinking many of those Avenger systems would have been stripped from their Humvee carriers and replaced with ex-aircraft guns as makeshift AAA and ground support systems.

With approximately 1000 M167 ground mounts produced along with innumerable vehicle mounts, not to mention all the aircraft ammo which may have survived, it seems like a good idea.

The 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion TOE was 300 men and 60 M1097 Avengers, of which only a quarter are judged to have survived (based on factors too numerous to list here). My thoughts are that of the 15 or so vehicles still operating, only 5 are still equipped with the Avenger system and the rest either having been disarmed and re-purposed (into basic cargo/troop carriers) or rearmed with the aircraft weaponry.

Thoughts? Problems? Technical difficulties?

Note that it's also my intention to virtually disband the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing leaving only a cadre behind in Germany and the 2nd Low Altitude Air Defence Battalion which lands with 2nd MARDIV.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind guys that there will still be jets flying - there are just too many around in the world to not have enough spare parts to keep some of them going. But they will be more of a silver bullet force as time goes on - i.e. sort of like the B2 is now. You may have a single squadron of F-15's in Colorado and thats it for real air to air superiority aircraft still operational in the US, that is only operational by cannibalizing literally dozens of others for the spare parts needed and using remaining machine shops and the like to make spare parts using existing ones as the pattern.

However some jets are a perfect candidate for a post 2000 US Air Force - for instance the A-10 Thunderbolt. One of the reasons they picked it as the resistance jet aircraft for Terminator Salvation was that its so easy to maintain, relatively simple and very hardy and thus the one plane that would survive years of combat in an environment very similar to a T2000 world.

And it fits perfectly what is needed for the post 2000 Twilight War world - i.e. a ground attack aircraft that can do air to air if it has to and can do its job mainly just with its cannon and doesnt need a bunch of missiles to be effective.

[Legbreaker]

Fuel.
There just isn't any to be had in Europe.
There's not even enough to go around in the middle east.
And it's all in black and white in the books.

Of course as usual everyone's free to do what they want in their own world, but I personally aim to stick with the published materials as much as possible so that all may (or may not) use what I produce without problems.

[Olefin]

there is enough fuel to go around in the Middle East to supply three large groups of aircraft that are still very active per Kings Ransom and the RDF - between all three of them

the US has 86 helos, 45 high performance jet fighters and attack planes and 22 transport/patrol/refueling aircraft

the Russians and their allies have 48 helos, 58 high performance jet fighters and bombers and 17 transport aircraft

the French have 20 helos, 48 high performance aircraft, 12 transport/refueling

the Saudis have 12 Tornados

add that up and there is enough fuel to operate 154 helicopters, 163 jet fighters and bombers and attack aircraft and 51 transports

thats a lot of aircraft that are fully operational and have fuel - not for unlimited ops but they are operational (remember in Kings Ransom there is fuel to call in helos for both insertions and retrievals)

and that doesnt count all the tanks, APC's, trucks and Hummers that are still around

and keep in mind what just one fully operational refinery and well could do in Texas - where that one well in six months could make 250,000 gallons of aviation fuel

and we know that there is fuel enough in Europe in at least one place to operate aircraft - Ploesti - with two units having at least ten operational helos there on the Russian side

[Legbreaker]

But no fuel to spare for other areas.
Such as Europe, the place I'm working on now. What's going on elsewhere in the world is completely, utterly and totally irrelevant to the topic at hand which is cannibalism of aircraft in Europe, specifically USMC aircraft (although not limited to them alone), many of which have suffered irreparable damage given the parts and personnel available.

From the BYB:
Aircraft designed to fly on aviation gas cannot get off the ground on alcohol. Thus, air power is mostly a thing of the past (to the secret relief of many infantrymen).From all versions:...the grounding of the last cargo aircraft...From The Free City of Krakow:Since they require aviation fuel, aircraft have become increasingly rare and are seldom flown. Aircraft of various types, especially helicopters, have been stored in barns and hangars across Europe, but they are useless without fuel, and many have been stripped for parts useful to other endeavours.
Now, if you've got something to add on the current topic of cannibalism, I'm all ears.

[Raellus]

Take it easy, fellas.

Some people prefer T2K without most (or any) of the hi-tech and others like to include some more of it. I fall into the former category but that's neither here nor there. Most of the published materials lay out a vision of the T2KU where aircraft are extremely rare and fly infrequently, if at all. That said, if Olefin prefers a T2KU where aircraft are a little more common, he's entitled to it. Please, let's not get into another one of these arguments because we've all seen where they usually end up going.

Cool?

[Legbreaker]

That said, if Olefin prefers a T2KU where aircraft are a little more common, he's entitled to it.

Exactly what I said in #48 above.

[Olefin]

I am totally cool Raellus - only pointing out that aircraft arent as rare elsewhere in the world as they are in Europe. One of those places being the RDF. And there are aircraft ops even in the US - but on a small scale obviosuly (A Rock in Troubled Waters mentions US aircraft operations but with very limited fuel to critical ops only and an airbase where fuel is scarce but is still used as a relay station to New England)

And keep in mind that the French have enough fuel to be operating helicopters in Going Home - and the last I heard France is part of Europe. (althougth sometimes you wonder if the French think so.. lol)

from Going Home - "Units in the dead zone are in constant radio communication
with their base. If they get into more trouble than they can handle
alone, they can call for and receive support in the form of
airstrikes or airmobile reinforcements (unlike their opponents,
the French Army still has a small quantity of functional aircraft
and the fuel to run them). Avgas does not grow on trees,
however, and the platoon who calls for aviation help had better
have a good reason for doing so.

Reaction Force: This consists of a helicopter-borne patrol
(generally Elite, but often Good) carried in three Puma transport
helicopters, and two Gazelle helicopters (one ground attack and
one anti-tank version). It is dispatched against threats which
the foot patrols have encountered, but feel are too large for them
to handle"

And Med Cruise details Soviet helo ops in the late spring of 2001 with oil from Ploesti still being around

So clearly it is still possible to operate aircraft and they do exist - but in most places there is almost no fuel left for ops (i.e. Krakow's helo only has about 1000 liters or so, the US evac fleet may only have the one operational helicopter and only enough fuel for a short flight for evacuating the rear guard, etc..)

And Raellus - I am only going strictly by whats in the modules as to air ops and the availability of planes and helos and fuel, not my own opinions - I do like having more tech available because frankly it would take decades for all of it to break down.

I am an engineer by trade and by experience - i work with military equipment that was built in the 1950's to 80's and we recondition it to keep it working. And as was seen during WWII its amazing what you can do to keep planes flying - I didnt say they would work as well as before, I said flying.

And keep in mind the effect of even a handful of planes and what they can do when you are the only one having air power. Even if all they can do is be observation planes because their weaponry doesnt work anymore.

Oh and dont worry Raellus - I am not going to pick a fight in any way. One ban is more than enough thank you. Plus everyone is entitled to their opinion here.

[Legbreaker]

So now that mess is done with, what's the thoughts on post #46?
All viewpoints welcome, but please keep it constructive.

[Raellus]

Cool. I'm glad we're all on the same page.

[Tegyrius]

So now that mess is done with, what's the thoughts on post #46?
All viewpoints welcome, but please keep it constructive.

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption. You'd need non-trivial transport just to carry a basic load for one engagement. I'm wondering if they'd be better in fixed positions than as maneuver support guns.

- C.

[Raellus]

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption. You'd need non-trivial transport just to carry a basic load for one engagement. I'm wondering if they'd be better in fixed positions than as maneuver support guns.


That's a good point. A Vulcan on a HEMTT might work. Talk about a wicked gun truck.

[Tegyrius]

That's a good point. A Vulcan on a HEMTT might work. Talk about a wicked gun truck.

Q-wagon. Mount it on a heavy ox-drawn Conestoga-type wagon, put a lightweight collapsible frame and canvas cover over it, and use it for trade caravan defense. Sheer shock value would give you the initiative long enough for your riflemen to pick off the attackers. :D

- C.

[Graebarde]

Q-wagon. Mount it on a heavy ox-drawn Conestoga-type wagon, put a lightweight collapsible frame and canvas cover over it, and use it for trade caravan defense. Sheer shock value would give you the initiative long enough for your riflemen to pick off the attackers. :D

- C.

The wagon MIGHT survive the first burst before disintegrating from the vibration. Even the Avengers would be challenged by it.

I put several gun trucks in my OpFred game when the 5th reorganized the winter before the push. The aviation and ADA battalions were the units which, due to nonavailability of fuel for flying except a horded amount and five flyable utility light helos that didn't need a battalion of troops... and lack of missiles for the Avengers.. hence they had about 15 vehicles in different configurations from HUMMV with a fifty and two GPMG with D-grips and crew of 4.. to a HEMTT with everything from miniguns to mortar on board.. the 'battlewagon' of the provisional battalion. The vehicles were farmed out through out the division to provide everything from convoy escort to infantry firesupport.

BUT fuel and ammo is still a problem for them, like everyone else.

[Olefin]

By the way for ultralights keep in mind that they dont need avgas per se - most engines are rated for 93 Octane auto fuel which would be easier to find in the US than avgas for instance.

As to putting aircraft weaponry on gun trucks - interesting paragraph from a wikipedia article on Technicals - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(vehicle)

"Some medium flatbed trucks carried the Soviet-made ZPU and ZU-23-2 towed anti-aircraft twin or quad barreled guns, as well as recoilless rifles and S-5 rocket helicopter rocket launcher pods. Some rebels have improvised with captured heavy weaponry, like BMP-1 turrets and helicopter rocket pods, as well as lower-tech methods such as using doorbells to ignite rocket-launched ammunition."

[Targan]

"Some medium flatbed trucks carried the Soviet-made ZPU and ZU-23-2 towed anti-aircraft twin or quad barreled guns, as well as recoilless rifles and S-5 rocket helicopter rocket launcher pods. Some rebels have improvised with captured heavy weaponry, like BMP-1 turrets and helicopter rocket pods, as well as lower-tech methods such as using doorbells to ignite rocket-launched ammunition."

Good point. I've seen some great photos on this forum and dedicated Technicals threads on other forums showing some of the wild and crazy technicals the Libyan resistance were fielding during the recent "regime change". In particular I was pleased to see helicopter rocket pods being succesfully used in improvised vehicle mounts as in my last T2K campaign the PCs got their hands on an up-armoured dirt track speedway sedan with a rocket pod mounted on a roof ring mount.

[Legbreaker]

The first problem I see with ground support mounts for Vulcans is the ammo consumption.

My thoughts are (as you can see in the Marines thread) these ex aircraft weapons would be used as makeshift AA weapons and employed by the 2nd LAAD battalion. My thoughts are the M1097's had their original Avenger turrets removed (and stripped for parts to keep the others in action) and the aircraft guns mounted in their place.
Ready ammunition may be only what the donor aircraft carried unless the feed system is also modified, but additional rounds could be carried either on the vehicle or in a trailer.
Use in the ground support role would be avoided as much as possible due to the lack of protective armour and high visibility of the vehicle as a whole. One or two units would be located with Divisional, Regimental and perhaps Battalion HQs with the nearest to the front lines being perhaps a mile or two away (unless the shit had hit the fan).

The main problem I've found with fielding more of these makeshift weapon systems is available personnel to crew them. Roughly one third of the 2nd Marines have had to be dedicated to support positions (and that's nowhere near what I consider enough), about another 600 to armour, recon and combat engineers leaving just 2,200 to divide up between the three foot mobile infantry regiments. Even with only 8 tanks and a few dozen LAV-25s, it's hard to justify an increased fighting vehicle presence based on support requirements.

[rcaf_777]

I am think that the idea of having Navy and Airforce provide rear security and services is good

The high technical nature of the many trades they could assiting with salvage of high components or repair of vehicles, gun systems ect, this could free up other army personel to provide combat troops replacment.

IRL the USN Navy Provisional Detainee Battalion 2 was formed for duty in Iraq under the coomand of the US Army's 16th Military Police Brigade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy_Provisional_Detainee_Battalion_2

Also the Canadian Navy has provide Clearance Divers to Army for Counter IED duty in Afghanstian, most notable was Petty Officer 2nd Class Craig Blake who killed in Afghanstian while attemting to disfuse an IED - one of the best divers I ever met

[Greylond]

The U.S. Navy has had a "Auxiliary Defense Force" for years. Back in the mid/late 80's it was decided by SecDef/SecNav that the Navy would provide it's own base defense and only use U.S. Marines for critical installations and/or Defense Reaction purposes. It was never said outright but Navy ASF was basically a "tripwire" that freed up the Marines from standing regular guard duty and if something happened ASF would provide first line defense and the closest Marine unit would provide a Reaction Force to come in and kill the bad guys. The Navy ASF was composed of various members of the base. These sailors would go through a one week(sometimes two weeks) training. It covered weapons familiarization(M14s, M60s, Shotgun, and Pistol(.45 and later 9mm), peacetime legal search/siezure, use of deadly force in a Law Enforcement situations, arrest and evidence handling, first aid, basic vehicle/IED searches, basic combat/base defense tactics and a short ground exercise lasting a few hours or full day. The weapons training was just enough to allow each member of ASF to be able to the weapon and basic marksmanship, in TW2K v1.0 terms I'd say a CRM: 10 and PST: 10) The training was given by local Navy Security Departments augmented with local Marine trainers from the closest Marine unit. Like any other unit that was made up by service people that had to be seconded from a parent unit ASF basically had two types of sailors; those that the local Departments/Shops wanted to get rid of because they were worst members of the department(lazy, incompetent and/or insubordinate) and those that really wanted to go through the training because it was a chance to learn something about weapons and tactics. Usually most of the ASF was made of the first group and a few of the second.

How do I know about this? I was a member of Navy ASF in Guam(1988-89) and San Diego(1990/1991), and I was a member of the second type(volunteered for it both times). I went through the entire training program twice, once at each base. When I was on Guam our base went through multiple day exercise with an "Aggressor Force" made up of a Reservist SEAL team. The ASF team that I was assigned to for that exercise had the job of protecting the Captain and XO living quarters. Our team was the only one that "Won." We were the only group to not only resist the Aggressors but we actually repelled an attack on the CO's house. Several of the factors in our favor were the fact that it was a daylight raid and the XO's living quarters were empty because the XO at the time was single and still lived in the BOQ, not having moved to the XO House yet so the raiders split, half the team hitting an empty house(bad info/intelligence) and the other half hitting the CO's house. And unlike the rest of the ASF we actually hid in the bushes and ambushed the raid team, which they didn't expect because of the general incompetence of the rest of the ASF. Our group just happened to be made up entirely of a group that had Volunteered to be on ASF and got a kick out of it. We repelled/"Killed" the team hitting the CO's house and by the time the other half of their team realized the XO house was empty the Marine Reaction team had gotten there because as soon as we saw the raid team our team leader had radioed in for assistance. In fact, I didn't even get to point my empty rifle at any of the raid team because I was the last one protecting the flank of the house/and front door and the "Raiders" all "Died" before they got to the front door. We were lucky in our engagement, other teams got hit at night and by raiders who had better info. There was a debrief in which they showed us a video taken by an aggressor team that sneaked up on a ASF team at night who never even realized that they had been there until the debrief!

Basically, here's my points;

1) yes, there is precedence for it.
2) Any Department Head/Shop Supervisor is going to send the worst of their command out first with a few members being really motivated but the overall unit quality is going to actually be pretty low, IMO.

A lot of the Navy is very technical oriented, in fact Navy Electronic Repair shops already have experience with Marine ground radios so using the Navy personnel for rear area maintenance/refit is not only possible but IMO very likely because the Navy already has those shops in operation. My last duty station(1991) was SIMA San Diego. SIMA stands for "Shore Intermediate Maintenance Activity" and don't let "Intermediate" fool you, our mission was to restore equipment to "Like New" condition. We would tear down radio and RADAR systems completely down, refurbish the equipment cases(grind down to bare metal and repaint) and do a total component level rebuild. For example along with shipboard communications, our shop repaired PRC-77 and man portable satellite radios used by the Marine units in southern California.

So, I can really see a lot of the non-technical members of the Navy being used for Base Defense or other positional Defense points but all the technical repair/maintenance types(which is a very large part) being held back for maintenance and possibly even fabrication of some replacement parts. Each Navy ship has a machine shop of varying size and the larger ships/bases have pretty extensive machine/fabrication shops.

[dragoon500ly]

This link to the US Navy Naval Infantry...the USN actually trained naval infantry as late as the mid-1960s.

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/naval_infantry.htm