kato13
03-15-2010, 03:41 AM
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TrailerParkJawa
Convoy to Sacramento
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I've been wondering in terms of logistics what would be required for MilGov to retake southern California and wether or not it would be worth it. So I've started by calculating how much it would take to move a small convoy from Camp Parks to Sacramento on relatively "safe" roads. Here is what I came up with, I hope my math is right. This is a 6 vehicle convoy transfering 40 men to Sacramento along with an unspecified cargo of spare parts and such. It takes 1 period to reach Sacramento and is uneventful but still would require a lot of resources in the T2K universe.
4 Hummers
Full Tanks = 90 litres each = 360 liters total
Consumption for 1 period = 120 liters
2 5 Ton Trucks
Full Tanks = 280 liters each = 560 liters total
Consumption for 1 period = 140 liters total
Hummer Armament
3 M-249's = 200 rounds each = 600 rounds 5.56mm
1 M-2 Browning = 200 rounds = 200 rounds of .50 caliber
5 Ton Truck Armament
2 M-60's = 200 rounds each = 400 rounds of 7.62mm
Hummer crews
5 Men per Hummer = 20 Men Total
20 M-16's = 90 rounds each = 1800 rounds of 5.56mm
1 HE Grenade = 20 Grenades
5 Ton Truck Crews
2 men per truck = 4 men total
4 M-177 = 90 rounds each = 360 rounds of 5.56mm
5 Ton Passengers
2 squads = 8 men per squad = 16 men total
10 M-16's = 90 rounds each = 900 rounds of 5.56mm
2 M-203's = 2 rounds each = 4 rounds 40mm
2 M-249's = 200 rounds each = 400 rounds of 5.56mm
2 M-60's = 200 rounds each = 400 rounds of 7.62mm
4 smoke grenades
10 HE grenaeds
Totals:
Vehicles: 6 vehicles
Fuel to tank all vehicles: 920 litres
Fuel Consumption for 1 period: 260 litres
Manpower: 40 men
Vehicle Mounted Weapons: 6
Vehicle Mounted Ammo: 200 rounds .50 cal, 600 rounds 5.56mm, 400 rounds 7.62
Personal Weapons:
30 M-16's
4 M-177's
2 M-249's
2 M-60's
2 M-203's
30 HE Grenades
4 Smoke Grenades
3460 rounds of 5.56mm
400 rounds of 7.62mm
4 40mm grenades
Food Supplies:
2 litres water per man = 80 litres total
1 days supply food per man = 160 kg food
TrailerParkJawa
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Matt Wiser
MilGov's going to want to retake SoCal, regardless of what it takes. Clear the occupied area of SoCal and link up with the Southern Arizona garrison that's at Fort Huachucha. That takes care of California and Arizona, and (by default) New Mexico. The only other areas under Mexican/Soviet occupation are in Central and Southern Texas, and perhaps a deal can be cut with the Division Cuba CG; help send the Mexicans packing, and you guys have a choice: either stay and help rebuild the U.S. (with a promise of U.S. citizenship in return), or we'll load you on one of the ships that returned the Army from Germany and you can sail home. I would imagine that the Soviet
commander would consider such an offer very carefully.
I would expect that retaking SoCal would wait until the 8th Army has returned from Korea, and probably CENTCOM's forces from the PG region. In the meantime, various activities to keep the Mexican forces in SoCal "entertained" will be maintained, and intensified. Each Mexican soldier killed in a guerilla attack or on rear-area security is one less facing 6th Army when the day comes. At least when the 8th Army returns, there will be reinforcements for the 6th Army in California. The Mexicans are at the end of a long supply/reinforcement line, and since there's a civil war between the various Mexican factions....
Matt Wiser
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chico20854
TPJ-
Your calculations are more or less right for a convoy in 1997.
In 2001, however, replace the 5-tons with wagons, cut the squads down to 5 or 6 soldiers each, arm the vehicle drivers with .30-30 lever-actions, throw in some captured (ex-Mexican armyor an AK), civilian (pump shotgun) or M16EZ/A1 long arms, have the squad leaders the only soldiers carrying HE grenades (the rest get Wojo-style frags), and thin the ammo issue out.
They still have a tremendous amount of firepower, keeping in mind the threat level. (i.e. Hells Angels with limited mobility, survivalist gangs, etc).
Just a few thoughts!
chico20854
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DeaconR
I have a few questions, particularly about Matt Wiser's take on things.
First of all, you're assuming that Fort Huachuca is operational, but isn't that mostly an idea of Webstral's? So is it operational in this particular campaign or do we generally agree that it ought to be?
Second, what about where the fuel will come from? Will there be ample fuel or will they have to use wagons as was suggested by chico? (with whom I agree btw)
DeaconR
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TrailerParkJawa
This was really an excercise to see how much ammo, water, food, gas was required to move troops a relatively small distance as to get a feel for what might be required to retake the southland.
I made some of the following assumptions:
1) The convoy is running on gasoline. There is a surviving refinery in Bakersfield which gets its oil from the Kern county oil fields.
2) I simplied the weapons load since this is an excercise. I started having mixed amounts of weapons and it just got to be overly complicated for what I wanted to do.
3) I made no assumptions about Fort Huachuca, I honestly don't know much about it, canon or otherwise.
4) The convoy's cargo is critical enough that the convoy will be overwatched by aircraft from Moffet Field. (Probably a pair of Cessna's converted to carry a gun pod or air to ground rockets) The convoy isn't so critical as to warrant the overwatch of the few surviving jet aircraft in the area. I left these calculations off for simplicity.
5) As for wagons and such, I purposely decided to make this a well equipped convoy (in terms of 2001) again as an excercise. Since I'm sorta basing this on the conditions in my SF Sourcebook, I decided that any movement of troops or equipment between major cantonments will be well equipped to ensure its success.
Troops moving shorters distances, say from Moffet Field to Camp Parks, certainly might use wagons, horses, bicycles, or a plain old school bus.
6) As for the ammo, I chose the quantities I did to reflect what might be required to succesfully fight a battle against marauders or Mexican forces. As it is, these ammo loads are pretty thin in my opinion to fight for any length of time. California is a BIG state and it would take a lot to recovery lost territory.
Where did the ammo come from? It could either be from a recently recovered strategic cache, carefully horded supplies from pre 1998, or new production from a restored armory someplace under MilGov control. I think Howling Wilderness mentioned an armory was up and running in Colorado.
If that is true it is conceivable that the occasional trade occurs between forces in California with Colorado. Mabye a once a quarter C-130 flight from Moffet to Colorado Springs?
TrailerParkJawa
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Matt Wiser
Since canon didn't say much about SE Arizona, I'm kinda taking what Webstral has written. TPJ's take on supplies is pretty accurate, with the oil fields down in Kern County (and some in Coalinga here in Fresno County as well), they should have gas. Ammo and other supplies can come from several sources as TPJ suggests. An occasional cargo flight from Castle or McClellan to Colorado to pick up high-priority items is also likely. But keeping the fuel
balanced between routine ops and building up a fuel reserve for when the op to send the Mexicans packing kicks off is going to be touchy for 6th Army's supply officer (among his/her other responsiblities).
Matt Wiser
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TrailerParkJawa
There are also 10 wells in Livermore, which is very close to Camp Parks, that almost nobody knows about but produce small amounts of oil every day for sale to the local refineries.
With petroleum many things are possible. As Matt points out the supply officers are going to have a tough job making decisions on when the consumption of fuel is worth the results.
I could see some officer or senior nco being a project manager delegating gasoline to the proper efforts? Does this convoy warrant gas or should they take bicylces? Does this building salvage project warrant a bulldozer or should hammers and wheel barrels suffice.
TrailerParkJawa
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DeaconR
This all makes a great deal of sense then. The areas you are mentioning are supposed to be secure though I guess that would depend on an individual campaign and how much you accept what is in the US Vheicle Guide or Howling Wilderness.
DeaconR
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rcaf_777
Rracf_777
Convoy Route
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Here's a route I planned using Goggle Earth which you will need to open it, As you can see it contians quite alot of towns which could have any number of problems, the way I figured the characters could hold key positions in the convoy, IE Convoy Commader, Second in Commmand, NCO in Charge of Dismounted Troops, NCO in Charge of Mounted Troops (Truck Drivers), Medic
or a Key Passenger going along for the ride, Like Naval Officer going a recon for salvage would be nice, Just some ideas
Attached Files Convoy.zip (11.4 KB, 17 views)
rcaf_777
Visit rcaf_777's homepage!
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcaf_777
Here's a route I planned using Goggle Earth which you will need to open it, As you can see it contians quite alot of towns which could have any number of problems, the way I figured the characters could hold key positions in the convoy, IE Convoy Commader, Second in Commmand, NCO in Charge of Dismounted Troops, NCO in Charge of Mounted Troops (Truck Drivers), Medic
or a Key Passenger going along for the ride, Like Naval Officer going a recon for salvage would be nice, Just some ideas
Hi Rcaf_777,
thanks for the ideas and work on the route. there is one problem, the bridges crossing the carqinuez straight were in the middle of the nukes that hit the oil refineries in the Bay Area. I've got at least the I-80 portion completely gone and the other bridge either destroyed or unable to carry vehicle traffic. Anyone going to Sac from Camp Parks will need to head out on 580 towards Stockton.
TrailerParkJawa
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Hangfire7
But, since people would so used to going that route, wouldn't a dirt road spring up and maybe an enterprising person set up a ferry across some of the rivers and similiar water obsticals.
Hangfire7
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangfire7
But, since people would so used to going that route, wouldn't a dirt road spring up and maybe an enterprising person set up a ferry across some of the rivers and similiar water obsticals.
I don't think so, the Carquinez Straight is fairly wide and steep where the bridge is currently located. After the nukes it is the center of a devastated zone. There are locations further to the east where you create a crossing either by ferry or using an existing bridge. As for people used to going that route, it really depends. To get to Sac you can go I-80 or I-580, your choice depends largely on time of day, personal preference, and starting location. Obviously, once we've reached the T2K stage, time of day and traffic patterns are irrelevent but using the I-580 route would make some sense, since canon also states there are forces in Stockton. This would give characters a short run from Camp Parks to Stockton then to Sac, offering friendly areas along the way.
---- EDIT
Here is a link that shows the new bridge from a distance but you can get an idea of the steep sides of the crossing point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carquinez_Bridge
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Last edited by TrailerParkJawa : 06-20-2006 at 01:21 PM. Reason: Add link
TrailerParkJawa
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thefusilier
I was thinking about what the roadways might look like in the more (or formerly) densely populated areas and wonder would a wrecker (towtruck) be a needed element in a convoy (at least for newly used routes). I imagine a large number of abandoned vehicles, in some areas bumper to bumper as people tried to get out... but were forced to abandoned their cars and head out on foot. It might make for some route difficulties, including making some of the worst areas impassable. Thoughts on this?
__________________
The Fusilier
thefusilier
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefusilier
I was thinking about what the roadways might look like in the more (or formerly) densely populated areas and wonder would a wrecker (towtruck) be a needed element in a convoy (at least for newly used routes). I imagine a large number of abandoned vehicles, in some areas bumper to bumper as people tried to get out... but were forced to abandoned their cars and head out on foot. It might make for some route difficulties, including making some of the worst areas impassable. Thoughts on this?
I've had similar thoughts. Not all the nuke strikes were on the same day, what if a few happened during commute hours or in the panic to escape the cities after the first few bombs. There could be streches of highways with disabled cars going for miles on end. By 2001 I think some of these would have been cleared out of the way either by scavengers or people simply pushing the car to the side far enough to get one lane going.
I think a wrecker or some vehicle capable of pushing a car to the side is a reasonable idea. I think the abandon vehicle encounter would be almost automatic for every x amount of road travelled.
Low lying areas that go under an overpass might not only be blocked with cars but water and other debris that collects at the power for drainage systems is long gone.
TrailerParkJawa
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Hangfire7
Abandoned Vehicles:
I have them almost every time I have characters drive in CONUS. I can imagine a few places in the midwest, Southwest and other regions where you would not. But yes they would be a common sight.
I have used vehicles that where burnt and rusted hulks, some even containing bones of their formr occupants that our convoy noticed and then upon closer inspection realized what they where.
Others I have chain gangs of criminals or refugees on work parties moving them to the side of the road. Or a team of horses hauling them to a central point where they where seperated according to usefulness. Some left to further rust, some to be stripped and some to be used for the metal.
I do not think these would be as prevelant in Europe since armies would still be on the move and thus, abandoned vehicles would be removed, scavanged or salvaged.
And have any of you used car wrecks as a tool?
I used a fatal accident once in a Desert Game where the PCs where cresting a hill and had to slam on the brakes as they came upon a traffic jam. A vehicle had come over the hill and encountered a sheepherder. He tried to swerve to avoid the herd and rolled the vehicle, closing it down and causing a traffic jam as the MPs and Road Master investigated the scene prior to clearing the wreckage.
Hangfire7
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rcaf_777
Rracf_777
Convoy Route
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Ok I've been going over the route and polted some other route just like a convoy commander would wow useful army training
Route One
West on 580, towards livermore, west on 205 to Tracey, North on 5 to Stockton, and Sac with no major rivers to cross
Route Two East 580 East towards San Leandaro, and Oakland and the 780 to
Sac the fore meation river to cover
Route Three Northwest on 580 to 199 east on that until 5 and south on 5 till Sac
rcaf_777
Visit rcaf_777's homepage!
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firewalker
a wrecker or service truck might not be a bad idea as sort of mobile recovery thing. after all the vehicles of the convoy are going to be rather valuable in and of them selves, and if (i.e when) one of them brakes down your not realy going to be able to call for help.
firewalker
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DeaconR
I had a group of refugees living in the remains of a rig that had gone off road. The visibly useful parts were stripped away but they were living in the remains.
I also had a group of marauders pretend that there had been a road accident which was really an ambush.
As a further tool I had a group of stragglers whose vehicle had been badly damaged beg the characters for a lift while they were retreating from Kalisz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangfire7
Abandoned Vehicles:
I have them almost every time I have characters drive in CONUS. I can imagine a few places in the midwest, Southwest and other regions where you would not. But yes they would be a common sight.
I have used vehicles that where burnt and rusted hulks, some even containing bones of their formr occupants that our convoy noticed and then upon closer inspection realized what they where.
Others I have chain gangs of criminals or refugees on work parties moving them to the side of the road. Or a team of horses hauling them to a central point where they where seperated according to usefulness. Some left to further rust, some to be stripped and some to be used for the metal.
I do not think these would be as prevelant in Europe since armies would still be on the move and thus, abandoned vehicles would be removed, scavanged or salvaged.
And have any of you used car wrecks as a tool?
I used a fatal accident once in a Desert Game where the PCs where cresting a hill and had to slam on the brakes as they came upon a traffic jam. A vehicle had come over the hill and encountered a sheepherder. He tried to swerve to avoid the herd and rolled the vehicle, closing it down and causing a traffic jam as the MPs and Road Master investigated the scene prior to clearing the wreckage.
DeaconR
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Twilight2000V3
Who Dares Wins
ok im typing here holding my 3 week old son so excuse the typos.
Oil pumpers in Livermore?
that entire area would be a small crater ... camp parks is about 5 miles as the crow flies from lawrence livermore labs.....
theres a ng armory in tracy.
most of the eat bay (from fremont to oakland accross to san fran down to san jose would most likely be glowing.
my 2 cents.
__________________
"The school I went to Mr. Beckworth taught us the 13 colonies, with proper and educated leadership, all with the same goal in mind, after the Revolutionary War from 1776 to 1787 - 11 years of peacefull effort before they came up with a piece of paper all 13 colonies would sign - our present constitution." - Master Sergeant Jed Muldoon
Twilight2000V3
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TrailerParkJawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight2000V3
ok im typing here holding my 3 week old son so excuse the typos.
Oil pumpers in Livermore?
that entire area would be a small crater ... camp parks is about 5 miles as the crow flies from lawrence livermore labs.....
theres a ng armory in tracy.
most of the eat bay (from fremont to oakland accross to san fran down to san jose would most likely be glowing.
my 2 cents.
There is a very small oil field in Livermore, almost nobody knows about it. The only reason I know about is because I stumbled across a newspaper article about it. It was one of those articles that details some odd or little known fact about the area. If I recall correctly they pump 50 barrels a day there. A small amount in todays world but in T2K that could represent a decent amount, assuming you can arrange power for the pumps.
As for the nukes, in an all out exchange you'd expect for Alameda NAS, Moffet NAS (which would take car of the Lockheed sattelite and missile production faculity as well as the Blue Cube at Onikuza) to be hit in addition to the refineries. I'm sure the Presidio and Mare Island to be a target at well. Yet, since I'm using the canon strike list all these targets missed out. Richmond, Benecia, Martinez, and Avon (which is really just Martinez as far as I can tell) were the only hits in the Bay Area. The biggest problem in the Bay Area like most of the T2K universe is that most people survived the initial strikes only to suffer from starvation or disease in the ensuing collapse of the modern economy.
PS: If your son is like my niece you will eventually have to get him a keyboard of his own so he can wail away at it while you type on the real keyboard. BANG BANG BANG....pluck...oh uh there goes the "Z" key.. congratulations on the new baby...
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Last edited by TrailerParkJawa : 06-26-2006 at 11:45 AM. Reason: add 1 more item.
TrailerParkJawa
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Twilight2000V3
Who Dares Wins
Hehehhee... thank you ... and I figure soon enough Ill get one of those fancy keyboards adn I can give him this one. God knows in 4 years he'll know more about computers than I will.
DO you LIVE in Livermore area?
Actually the East Bay will suffer from from radiation than anything else. With the central valley close by farming/livestock will keep most fo the remaining alive.
Max
__________________
"The school I went to Mr. Beckworth taught us the 13 colonies, with proper and educated leadership, all with the same goal in mind, after the Revolutionary War from 1776 to 1787 - 11 years of peacefull effort before they came up with a piece of paper all 13 colonies would sign - our present constitution." - Master Sergeant Jed Muldoon
Twilight2000V3
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight2000V3
Hehehhee... thank you ... and I figure soon enough Ill get one of those fancy keyboards adn I can give him this one. God knows in 4 years he'll know more about computers than I will.
DO you LIVE in Livermore area?
Actually the East Bay will suffer from from radiation than anything else. With the central valley close by farming/livestock will keep most fo the remaining alive.
Max
I actually live in San Jose, but have friends that live in San Ramon so I'm in the Tri-Valley area almost every weekend. I've been putting a lot of thought into what agriculture can support and how many people would survive in California. Water is key, without water from the Delta or Sierra the Central Valley is just another hot, dry place, not quite a desert but certainly not capable of feeding millions.
The great thing about the Bay Area is there is so much productive land available but by T2K I don't think any of the original farmers would be there, having been overrun by hordes of hungry people in the collapse. Unless that is MilGov could keep some sort of control. Perhaps at the expense of letting Mexico have SoCal.
TrailerParkJawa
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Twilight2000V3
Who Dares Wins
Send me an email when ya get a chance.
twilight2000v3@sbcglobal.net
__________________
"The school I went to Mr. Beckworth taught us the 13 colonies, with proper and educated leadership, all with the same goal in mind, after the Revolutionary War from 1776 to 1787 - 11 years of peacefull effort before they came up with a piece of paper all 13 colonies would sign - our present constitution." - Master Sergeant Jed Muldoon
Twilight2000V3
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TrailerParkJawa
I sent you a PM since I usually only browse the board at work during lulls in calls.
TrailerParkJawa
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Webstral
I love this discussion because I know exactly where everything discussed is.
As for nuke strikes in the area, I’m going off canon. Radiation shouldn’t be too much of a problem in the East Bay, since all three Bay Area strikes were airbursts. Also, Benicia and Martinez are really northeast Bay Area bordering on the Sacramento River Delta. Prevailing winds are going to carry any fallout into the Delta proper and eastwards. The real problem for the East Bay is going to be the residents of the East Bay, once the Richmond fires burn out.
There’s a lot of room for latitude when it comes to the damage from the Richmond strike. Where exactly did the nuke detonate? The storage tanks of the Richmond facility are sited on a pair of low hills within 200 meters of the water’s edge. I can’t remember what the CEP of the various Soviet ICBMs are, but the epicenter could be fairly far from the target. If the epicenter is south of the target, Richmond and San Pablo are going to receive the full effects of a 1.5Mt blast. If the epicenter is west of the target, there will be a good deal of damage all along the waterfront in Marin County, San Francisco, and Alameda County. If the epicenter is east of the target, the damage will land in the Richmond-Concord corridor. If the epicenter is north of the target, damage to the Bay could be fairly minimal. There’s not a lot happening north and northeast of the Richmond Bridge, and the distances and folds in the ground are such that even a 1.5Mt blast shouldn’t be too bad. (As nuclear blasts in a major metropolitan area go.)
In essence, then, how badly the Bay Area gets messed up by the attack on Richmond depends on what kind of story you want to tell. I prefer the story in which the real problem of the Bay Area is the unraveling of civilization, not outright destruction.
I love the idea that Parks RFTC will be an important facility in 2000. (BTW, I had my last drill at Parks in May. No more deployments for me!) Dublin should be a fairly safe place to live. I’d say that this is something I’d find myself caught up in, but if T2k were real I’d have been at Huachuca when the war started. In all likelihood, I’d have found myself XO of one of the MI training companies-turned-infantry. Of course, I might also have been fast-tracked to the front. Paperwork tangles have a tendency to meet the fate of the Gordian Knot when the country needs manpower.
Webstral
TrailerParkJawa
Convoy to Sacramento
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I've been wondering in terms of logistics what would be required for MilGov to retake southern California and wether or not it would be worth it. So I've started by calculating how much it would take to move a small convoy from Camp Parks to Sacramento on relatively "safe" roads. Here is what I came up with, I hope my math is right. This is a 6 vehicle convoy transfering 40 men to Sacramento along with an unspecified cargo of spare parts and such. It takes 1 period to reach Sacramento and is uneventful but still would require a lot of resources in the T2K universe.
4 Hummers
Full Tanks = 90 litres each = 360 liters total
Consumption for 1 period = 120 liters
2 5 Ton Trucks
Full Tanks = 280 liters each = 560 liters total
Consumption for 1 period = 140 liters total
Hummer Armament
3 M-249's = 200 rounds each = 600 rounds 5.56mm
1 M-2 Browning = 200 rounds = 200 rounds of .50 caliber
5 Ton Truck Armament
2 M-60's = 200 rounds each = 400 rounds of 7.62mm
Hummer crews
5 Men per Hummer = 20 Men Total
20 M-16's = 90 rounds each = 1800 rounds of 5.56mm
1 HE Grenade = 20 Grenades
5 Ton Truck Crews
2 men per truck = 4 men total
4 M-177 = 90 rounds each = 360 rounds of 5.56mm
5 Ton Passengers
2 squads = 8 men per squad = 16 men total
10 M-16's = 90 rounds each = 900 rounds of 5.56mm
2 M-203's = 2 rounds each = 4 rounds 40mm
2 M-249's = 200 rounds each = 400 rounds of 5.56mm
2 M-60's = 200 rounds each = 400 rounds of 7.62mm
4 smoke grenades
10 HE grenaeds
Totals:
Vehicles: 6 vehicles
Fuel to tank all vehicles: 920 litres
Fuel Consumption for 1 period: 260 litres
Manpower: 40 men
Vehicle Mounted Weapons: 6
Vehicle Mounted Ammo: 200 rounds .50 cal, 600 rounds 5.56mm, 400 rounds 7.62
Personal Weapons:
30 M-16's
4 M-177's
2 M-249's
2 M-60's
2 M-203's
30 HE Grenades
4 Smoke Grenades
3460 rounds of 5.56mm
400 rounds of 7.62mm
4 40mm grenades
Food Supplies:
2 litres water per man = 80 litres total
1 days supply food per man = 160 kg food
TrailerParkJawa
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Matt Wiser
MilGov's going to want to retake SoCal, regardless of what it takes. Clear the occupied area of SoCal and link up with the Southern Arizona garrison that's at Fort Huachucha. That takes care of California and Arizona, and (by default) New Mexico. The only other areas under Mexican/Soviet occupation are in Central and Southern Texas, and perhaps a deal can be cut with the Division Cuba CG; help send the Mexicans packing, and you guys have a choice: either stay and help rebuild the U.S. (with a promise of U.S. citizenship in return), or we'll load you on one of the ships that returned the Army from Germany and you can sail home. I would imagine that the Soviet
commander would consider such an offer very carefully.
I would expect that retaking SoCal would wait until the 8th Army has returned from Korea, and probably CENTCOM's forces from the PG region. In the meantime, various activities to keep the Mexican forces in SoCal "entertained" will be maintained, and intensified. Each Mexican soldier killed in a guerilla attack or on rear-area security is one less facing 6th Army when the day comes. At least when the 8th Army returns, there will be reinforcements for the 6th Army in California. The Mexicans are at the end of a long supply/reinforcement line, and since there's a civil war between the various Mexican factions....
Matt Wiser
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chico20854
TPJ-
Your calculations are more or less right for a convoy in 1997.
In 2001, however, replace the 5-tons with wagons, cut the squads down to 5 or 6 soldiers each, arm the vehicle drivers with .30-30 lever-actions, throw in some captured (ex-Mexican armyor an AK), civilian (pump shotgun) or M16EZ/A1 long arms, have the squad leaders the only soldiers carrying HE grenades (the rest get Wojo-style frags), and thin the ammo issue out.
They still have a tremendous amount of firepower, keeping in mind the threat level. (i.e. Hells Angels with limited mobility, survivalist gangs, etc).
Just a few thoughts!
chico20854
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DeaconR
I have a few questions, particularly about Matt Wiser's take on things.
First of all, you're assuming that Fort Huachuca is operational, but isn't that mostly an idea of Webstral's? So is it operational in this particular campaign or do we generally agree that it ought to be?
Second, what about where the fuel will come from? Will there be ample fuel or will they have to use wagons as was suggested by chico? (with whom I agree btw)
DeaconR
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TrailerParkJawa
This was really an excercise to see how much ammo, water, food, gas was required to move troops a relatively small distance as to get a feel for what might be required to retake the southland.
I made some of the following assumptions:
1) The convoy is running on gasoline. There is a surviving refinery in Bakersfield which gets its oil from the Kern county oil fields.
2) I simplied the weapons load since this is an excercise. I started having mixed amounts of weapons and it just got to be overly complicated for what I wanted to do.
3) I made no assumptions about Fort Huachuca, I honestly don't know much about it, canon or otherwise.
4) The convoy's cargo is critical enough that the convoy will be overwatched by aircraft from Moffet Field. (Probably a pair of Cessna's converted to carry a gun pod or air to ground rockets) The convoy isn't so critical as to warrant the overwatch of the few surviving jet aircraft in the area. I left these calculations off for simplicity.
5) As for wagons and such, I purposely decided to make this a well equipped convoy (in terms of 2001) again as an excercise. Since I'm sorta basing this on the conditions in my SF Sourcebook, I decided that any movement of troops or equipment between major cantonments will be well equipped to ensure its success.
Troops moving shorters distances, say from Moffet Field to Camp Parks, certainly might use wagons, horses, bicycles, or a plain old school bus.
6) As for the ammo, I chose the quantities I did to reflect what might be required to succesfully fight a battle against marauders or Mexican forces. As it is, these ammo loads are pretty thin in my opinion to fight for any length of time. California is a BIG state and it would take a lot to recovery lost territory.
Where did the ammo come from? It could either be from a recently recovered strategic cache, carefully horded supplies from pre 1998, or new production from a restored armory someplace under MilGov control. I think Howling Wilderness mentioned an armory was up and running in Colorado.
If that is true it is conceivable that the occasional trade occurs between forces in California with Colorado. Mabye a once a quarter C-130 flight from Moffet to Colorado Springs?
TrailerParkJawa
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Matt Wiser
Since canon didn't say much about SE Arizona, I'm kinda taking what Webstral has written. TPJ's take on supplies is pretty accurate, with the oil fields down in Kern County (and some in Coalinga here in Fresno County as well), they should have gas. Ammo and other supplies can come from several sources as TPJ suggests. An occasional cargo flight from Castle or McClellan to Colorado to pick up high-priority items is also likely. But keeping the fuel
balanced between routine ops and building up a fuel reserve for when the op to send the Mexicans packing kicks off is going to be touchy for 6th Army's supply officer (among his/her other responsiblities).
Matt Wiser
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TrailerParkJawa
There are also 10 wells in Livermore, which is very close to Camp Parks, that almost nobody knows about but produce small amounts of oil every day for sale to the local refineries.
With petroleum many things are possible. As Matt points out the supply officers are going to have a tough job making decisions on when the consumption of fuel is worth the results.
I could see some officer or senior nco being a project manager delegating gasoline to the proper efforts? Does this convoy warrant gas or should they take bicylces? Does this building salvage project warrant a bulldozer or should hammers and wheel barrels suffice.
TrailerParkJawa
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DeaconR
This all makes a great deal of sense then. The areas you are mentioning are supposed to be secure though I guess that would depend on an individual campaign and how much you accept what is in the US Vheicle Guide or Howling Wilderness.
DeaconR
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rcaf_777
Rracf_777
Convoy Route
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Here's a route I planned using Goggle Earth which you will need to open it, As you can see it contians quite alot of towns which could have any number of problems, the way I figured the characters could hold key positions in the convoy, IE Convoy Commader, Second in Commmand, NCO in Charge of Dismounted Troops, NCO in Charge of Mounted Troops (Truck Drivers), Medic
or a Key Passenger going along for the ride, Like Naval Officer going a recon for salvage would be nice, Just some ideas
Attached Files Convoy.zip (11.4 KB, 17 views)
rcaf_777
Visit rcaf_777's homepage!
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcaf_777
Here's a route I planned using Goggle Earth which you will need to open it, As you can see it contians quite alot of towns which could have any number of problems, the way I figured the characters could hold key positions in the convoy, IE Convoy Commader, Second in Commmand, NCO in Charge of Dismounted Troops, NCO in Charge of Mounted Troops (Truck Drivers), Medic
or a Key Passenger going along for the ride, Like Naval Officer going a recon for salvage would be nice, Just some ideas
Hi Rcaf_777,
thanks for the ideas and work on the route. there is one problem, the bridges crossing the carqinuez straight were in the middle of the nukes that hit the oil refineries in the Bay Area. I've got at least the I-80 portion completely gone and the other bridge either destroyed or unable to carry vehicle traffic. Anyone going to Sac from Camp Parks will need to head out on 580 towards Stockton.
TrailerParkJawa
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Hangfire7
But, since people would so used to going that route, wouldn't a dirt road spring up and maybe an enterprising person set up a ferry across some of the rivers and similiar water obsticals.
Hangfire7
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangfire7
But, since people would so used to going that route, wouldn't a dirt road spring up and maybe an enterprising person set up a ferry across some of the rivers and similiar water obsticals.
I don't think so, the Carquinez Straight is fairly wide and steep where the bridge is currently located. After the nukes it is the center of a devastated zone. There are locations further to the east where you create a crossing either by ferry or using an existing bridge. As for people used to going that route, it really depends. To get to Sac you can go I-80 or I-580, your choice depends largely on time of day, personal preference, and starting location. Obviously, once we've reached the T2K stage, time of day and traffic patterns are irrelevent but using the I-580 route would make some sense, since canon also states there are forces in Stockton. This would give characters a short run from Camp Parks to Stockton then to Sac, offering friendly areas along the way.
---- EDIT
Here is a link that shows the new bridge from a distance but you can get an idea of the steep sides of the crossing point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carquinez_Bridge
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Last edited by TrailerParkJawa : 06-20-2006 at 01:21 PM. Reason: Add link
TrailerParkJawa
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thefusilier
I was thinking about what the roadways might look like in the more (or formerly) densely populated areas and wonder would a wrecker (towtruck) be a needed element in a convoy (at least for newly used routes). I imagine a large number of abandoned vehicles, in some areas bumper to bumper as people tried to get out... but were forced to abandoned their cars and head out on foot. It might make for some route difficulties, including making some of the worst areas impassable. Thoughts on this?
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The Fusilier
thefusilier
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefusilier
I was thinking about what the roadways might look like in the more (or formerly) densely populated areas and wonder would a wrecker (towtruck) be a needed element in a convoy (at least for newly used routes). I imagine a large number of abandoned vehicles, in some areas bumper to bumper as people tried to get out... but were forced to abandoned their cars and head out on foot. It might make for some route difficulties, including making some of the worst areas impassable. Thoughts on this?
I've had similar thoughts. Not all the nuke strikes were on the same day, what if a few happened during commute hours or in the panic to escape the cities after the first few bombs. There could be streches of highways with disabled cars going for miles on end. By 2001 I think some of these would have been cleared out of the way either by scavengers or people simply pushing the car to the side far enough to get one lane going.
I think a wrecker or some vehicle capable of pushing a car to the side is a reasonable idea. I think the abandon vehicle encounter would be almost automatic for every x amount of road travelled.
Low lying areas that go under an overpass might not only be blocked with cars but water and other debris that collects at the power for drainage systems is long gone.
TrailerParkJawa
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Hangfire7
Abandoned Vehicles:
I have them almost every time I have characters drive in CONUS. I can imagine a few places in the midwest, Southwest and other regions where you would not. But yes they would be a common sight.
I have used vehicles that where burnt and rusted hulks, some even containing bones of their formr occupants that our convoy noticed and then upon closer inspection realized what they where.
Others I have chain gangs of criminals or refugees on work parties moving them to the side of the road. Or a team of horses hauling them to a central point where they where seperated according to usefulness. Some left to further rust, some to be stripped and some to be used for the metal.
I do not think these would be as prevelant in Europe since armies would still be on the move and thus, abandoned vehicles would be removed, scavanged or salvaged.
And have any of you used car wrecks as a tool?
I used a fatal accident once in a Desert Game where the PCs where cresting a hill and had to slam on the brakes as they came upon a traffic jam. A vehicle had come over the hill and encountered a sheepherder. He tried to swerve to avoid the herd and rolled the vehicle, closing it down and causing a traffic jam as the MPs and Road Master investigated the scene prior to clearing the wreckage.
Hangfire7
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rcaf_777
Rracf_777
Convoy Route
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Ok I've been going over the route and polted some other route just like a convoy commander would wow useful army training
Route One
West on 580, towards livermore, west on 205 to Tracey, North on 5 to Stockton, and Sac with no major rivers to cross
Route Two East 580 East towards San Leandaro, and Oakland and the 780 to
Sac the fore meation river to cover
Route Three Northwest on 580 to 199 east on that until 5 and south on 5 till Sac
rcaf_777
Visit rcaf_777's homepage!
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firewalker
a wrecker or service truck might not be a bad idea as sort of mobile recovery thing. after all the vehicles of the convoy are going to be rather valuable in and of them selves, and if (i.e when) one of them brakes down your not realy going to be able to call for help.
firewalker
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DeaconR
I had a group of refugees living in the remains of a rig that had gone off road. The visibly useful parts were stripped away but they were living in the remains.
I also had a group of marauders pretend that there had been a road accident which was really an ambush.
As a further tool I had a group of stragglers whose vehicle had been badly damaged beg the characters for a lift while they were retreating from Kalisz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hangfire7
Abandoned Vehicles:
I have them almost every time I have characters drive in CONUS. I can imagine a few places in the midwest, Southwest and other regions where you would not. But yes they would be a common sight.
I have used vehicles that where burnt and rusted hulks, some even containing bones of their formr occupants that our convoy noticed and then upon closer inspection realized what they where.
Others I have chain gangs of criminals or refugees on work parties moving them to the side of the road. Or a team of horses hauling them to a central point where they where seperated according to usefulness. Some left to further rust, some to be stripped and some to be used for the metal.
I do not think these would be as prevelant in Europe since armies would still be on the move and thus, abandoned vehicles would be removed, scavanged or salvaged.
And have any of you used car wrecks as a tool?
I used a fatal accident once in a Desert Game where the PCs where cresting a hill and had to slam on the brakes as they came upon a traffic jam. A vehicle had come over the hill and encountered a sheepherder. He tried to swerve to avoid the herd and rolled the vehicle, closing it down and causing a traffic jam as the MPs and Road Master investigated the scene prior to clearing the wreckage.
DeaconR
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Twilight2000V3
Who Dares Wins
ok im typing here holding my 3 week old son so excuse the typos.
Oil pumpers in Livermore?
that entire area would be a small crater ... camp parks is about 5 miles as the crow flies from lawrence livermore labs.....
theres a ng armory in tracy.
most of the eat bay (from fremont to oakland accross to san fran down to san jose would most likely be glowing.
my 2 cents.
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"The school I went to Mr. Beckworth taught us the 13 colonies, with proper and educated leadership, all with the same goal in mind, after the Revolutionary War from 1776 to 1787 - 11 years of peacefull effort before they came up with a piece of paper all 13 colonies would sign - our present constitution." - Master Sergeant Jed Muldoon
Twilight2000V3
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TrailerParkJawa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight2000V3
ok im typing here holding my 3 week old son so excuse the typos.
Oil pumpers in Livermore?
that entire area would be a small crater ... camp parks is about 5 miles as the crow flies from lawrence livermore labs.....
theres a ng armory in tracy.
most of the eat bay (from fremont to oakland accross to san fran down to san jose would most likely be glowing.
my 2 cents.
There is a very small oil field in Livermore, almost nobody knows about it. The only reason I know about is because I stumbled across a newspaper article about it. It was one of those articles that details some odd or little known fact about the area. If I recall correctly they pump 50 barrels a day there. A small amount in todays world but in T2K that could represent a decent amount, assuming you can arrange power for the pumps.
As for the nukes, in an all out exchange you'd expect for Alameda NAS, Moffet NAS (which would take car of the Lockheed sattelite and missile production faculity as well as the Blue Cube at Onikuza) to be hit in addition to the refineries. I'm sure the Presidio and Mare Island to be a target at well. Yet, since I'm using the canon strike list all these targets missed out. Richmond, Benecia, Martinez, and Avon (which is really just Martinez as far as I can tell) were the only hits in the Bay Area. The biggest problem in the Bay Area like most of the T2K universe is that most people survived the initial strikes only to suffer from starvation or disease in the ensuing collapse of the modern economy.
PS: If your son is like my niece you will eventually have to get him a keyboard of his own so he can wail away at it while you type on the real keyboard. BANG BANG BANG....pluck...oh uh there goes the "Z" key.. congratulations on the new baby...
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Last edited by TrailerParkJawa : 06-26-2006 at 11:45 AM. Reason: add 1 more item.
TrailerParkJawa
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Twilight2000V3
Who Dares Wins
Hehehhee... thank you ... and I figure soon enough Ill get one of those fancy keyboards adn I can give him this one. God knows in 4 years he'll know more about computers than I will.
DO you LIVE in Livermore area?
Actually the East Bay will suffer from from radiation than anything else. With the central valley close by farming/livestock will keep most fo the remaining alive.
Max
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"The school I went to Mr. Beckworth taught us the 13 colonies, with proper and educated leadership, all with the same goal in mind, after the Revolutionary War from 1776 to 1787 - 11 years of peacefull effort before they came up with a piece of paper all 13 colonies would sign - our present constitution." - Master Sergeant Jed Muldoon
Twilight2000V3
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TrailerParkJawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twilight2000V3
Hehehhee... thank you ... and I figure soon enough Ill get one of those fancy keyboards adn I can give him this one. God knows in 4 years he'll know more about computers than I will.
DO you LIVE in Livermore area?
Actually the East Bay will suffer from from radiation than anything else. With the central valley close by farming/livestock will keep most fo the remaining alive.
Max
I actually live in San Jose, but have friends that live in San Ramon so I'm in the Tri-Valley area almost every weekend. I've been putting a lot of thought into what agriculture can support and how many people would survive in California. Water is key, without water from the Delta or Sierra the Central Valley is just another hot, dry place, not quite a desert but certainly not capable of feeding millions.
The great thing about the Bay Area is there is so much productive land available but by T2K I don't think any of the original farmers would be there, having been overrun by hordes of hungry people in the collapse. Unless that is MilGov could keep some sort of control. Perhaps at the expense of letting Mexico have SoCal.
TrailerParkJawa
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Twilight2000V3
Who Dares Wins
Send me an email when ya get a chance.
twilight2000v3@sbcglobal.net
__________________
"The school I went to Mr. Beckworth taught us the 13 colonies, with proper and educated leadership, all with the same goal in mind, after the Revolutionary War from 1776 to 1787 - 11 years of peacefull effort before they came up with a piece of paper all 13 colonies would sign - our present constitution." - Master Sergeant Jed Muldoon
Twilight2000V3
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TrailerParkJawa
I sent you a PM since I usually only browse the board at work during lulls in calls.
TrailerParkJawa
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Webstral
I love this discussion because I know exactly where everything discussed is.
As for nuke strikes in the area, I’m going off canon. Radiation shouldn’t be too much of a problem in the East Bay, since all three Bay Area strikes were airbursts. Also, Benicia and Martinez are really northeast Bay Area bordering on the Sacramento River Delta. Prevailing winds are going to carry any fallout into the Delta proper and eastwards. The real problem for the East Bay is going to be the residents of the East Bay, once the Richmond fires burn out.
There’s a lot of room for latitude when it comes to the damage from the Richmond strike. Where exactly did the nuke detonate? The storage tanks of the Richmond facility are sited on a pair of low hills within 200 meters of the water’s edge. I can’t remember what the CEP of the various Soviet ICBMs are, but the epicenter could be fairly far from the target. If the epicenter is south of the target, Richmond and San Pablo are going to receive the full effects of a 1.5Mt blast. If the epicenter is west of the target, there will be a good deal of damage all along the waterfront in Marin County, San Francisco, and Alameda County. If the epicenter is east of the target, the damage will land in the Richmond-Concord corridor. If the epicenter is north of the target, damage to the Bay could be fairly minimal. There’s not a lot happening north and northeast of the Richmond Bridge, and the distances and folds in the ground are such that even a 1.5Mt blast shouldn’t be too bad. (As nuclear blasts in a major metropolitan area go.)
In essence, then, how badly the Bay Area gets messed up by the attack on Richmond depends on what kind of story you want to tell. I prefer the story in which the real problem of the Bay Area is the unraveling of civilization, not outright destruction.
I love the idea that Parks RFTC will be an important facility in 2000. (BTW, I had my last drill at Parks in May. No more deployments for me!) Dublin should be a fairly safe place to live. I’d say that this is something I’d find myself caught up in, but if T2k were real I’d have been at Huachuca when the war started. In all likelihood, I’d have found myself XO of one of the MI training companies-turned-infantry. Of course, I might also have been fast-tracked to the front. Paperwork tangles have a tendency to meet the fate of the Gordian Knot when the country needs manpower.
Webstral