kato13
03-15-2010, 03:57 AM
Dogger
An “Alternate History” of the Alternate History (long)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was re-reading Webstrals Storm In Germany a while back, and got to thinking about the v1. canon of when the Soviets started using there nuclear weapons in T2K.
In the “real” v1. history, the soviets started using tactical nukes on July 9 1997 when elements of the 1st German Army had crossed on to soviet soil (central front IIRC).
I got to wondering, ‘What If” things had gone different ?
1.) What if when the Bundeswehr was on the ropes in late November of 1996, the US/UK/CAN forces hesitated and did not cross the inter-German border do to the political confusion/fighting that was going on in NATO at the time.?
? (Would the German Army have been crushed and driven back by superior Pact forces ?)
2.) What if NATO could not be reinforced rapidly at the on set do to “surprising” soviet naval victories at sea and in the air ?
? (Would a delay of even…say 6-8 weeks in getting American CONUS forces to Europe have given Warsaw Pact forces time to drive into central or western Europe ?)
3.) Would NATO, if Pact forces were closing in on the Holland,Belgum, and the French frontiers have started using tactical nukes ?
! (This would no doubt have meant nuking soviet forces in West Germany.)
I think one things for sure, if any of the above were happening, I don’t think you would have seen NATO split in this version of T2K history as happened in v1. canon.
Also, the question of if NATO would have used nukes at the end on friendly soil with probable heavy civilian casualties is an interesting one, because in my view I would not be surprised that they would not use them. I think perhaps they would have tried to regroup in the UK and fight there way back into Europe via Spain or Italy if that route remained open.
I quick Soviet victory in Europe certainly makes for an interestingly different T2K world IMHO…No strategic nukes being used, so the US and the rest of the world are still intact. Soviet “domination” of most of Europe at long last (southern Europe would be dealt with later)
The Soviet navy coming out on top in the battle of the North Atlantic…the UK cut off. The West having to face the fact that after 50 years of preparing to fight the "Soviet Dragon"…they lost.
Might make for a world almost as interesting as the “real” T2K.
What do you guys think ?
Dogger
*********
Webstral
Interesting possibility. I'd enjoy reading more.
Webstral
*********
TiggerCCW UK
Sounds very interesting. Please post some more details.
TiggerCCW UK
*********
Abbott Shaull
Nukes in Germany
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now IIRC the US did have plans and Tactical Nukes pre-position in West Germany for a number of year. The theory was if the Soviets were making it run to the Rhine and they it looks as if the Reinforcement wouldn't make it....
Well let's just say in the 60s, 70s, and even into the 80s several SEALs and Green Berets had been select for sucidial mission and what several West Germans wouldn't know what happen. Of course they would be the lucky ones, because I can see West Germany and France as well with the exception of the UK just balking at this. The only reason the UK wouldn't really balk is that I believe they would have similiar intention not only in Germany, but in Norway too but that is JMHO.
Abbott
Abbott Shaull
*********
Dogger Hmm well my thinking is that even if NATO is beaten in Europe and US/UK forces are forced to retreat to the UK, WWIII will still rage on in the other theaters around the globe.
As Soviet forces approached the French frontier I would expect to see France sue for peace/make a deal with the USSR (even tho I’m thinking she still would not have been contemplating entering into the fight as the US/UK and Canada were, in fact I can see one of reasons that NATO did not get involved in time in this version could have been due to French interfering/stalling of NATO.)
Soviet forces would most likely occupy the Low Countries. Norway would be on her own especially if NATO had (at least at this stage in the fight) lost the first battle of the Atlantic. No American or British reinforcements would be heading her way any time soon.
NATO’s southern flank of Italy, Greece and Turkey if they presented a united front could possibly hold the line long enough for some form of NATO reinforcement to arrive (most likely light units brought in by air.)
Going off of Webstrals narrative that Saddam would still be alive and well in Iraq with an army that was rebuilt by the USSR after the Gulf War, I think the situation in the Middle East would unfold much as it did in the v1. time line; CENCOM would still have to be forced to deploy to the Gulf and fight in Iran (against the Soviets), and in Saudi Arabia (against Saddam).
In Korea things also would go much the same as v1. North Korea attacks the ROK.
The big looser (other then western Europe) in a quick Soviet victory in Europe would be China. The USSR could re-focus it’s attention on the PRC and shift men and martial to that effort, I think however at some point the war in China would still bog down for the Soviets, the question would be would they end up resorting to nukes as in v1. or would they just consolidate they’re holdings to date.
Another fallout of NATO’s defeat would be political you can count on the US and UK leaders suffering for a military defeat in Europe. Most likely to the point of loosing their job’s
I believe the political upheaval and chaos would be bad through out the Western nations as a whole. That chaos would no doubt help the Soviets prosecution of the war.
*** sig *** __________________
Dogger
*********
zek
having seen first hand now for the last 11 years how most soviet
equipment is flat out junk. I think that nato would have shot the soviet tanks to pieces. it would have been one hell of a fight, but its not like the us forces would have been supprised in their barracks. they would have already been forward deployed to their battle positions in west germany. just my thoughts.
john
An “Alternate History” of the Alternate History (long)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was re-reading Webstrals Storm In Germany a while back, and got to thinking about the v1. canon of when the Soviets started using there nuclear weapons in T2K.
In the “real” v1. history, the soviets started using tactical nukes on July 9 1997 when elements of the 1st German Army had crossed on to soviet soil (central front IIRC).
I got to wondering, ‘What If” things had gone different ?
1.) What if when the Bundeswehr was on the ropes in late November of 1996, the US/UK/CAN forces hesitated and did not cross the inter-German border do to the political confusion/fighting that was going on in NATO at the time.?
? (Would the German Army have been crushed and driven back by superior Pact forces ?)
2.) What if NATO could not be reinforced rapidly at the on set do to “surprising” soviet naval victories at sea and in the air ?
? (Would a delay of even…say 6-8 weeks in getting American CONUS forces to Europe have given Warsaw Pact forces time to drive into central or western Europe ?)
3.) Would NATO, if Pact forces were closing in on the Holland,Belgum, and the French frontiers have started using tactical nukes ?
! (This would no doubt have meant nuking soviet forces in West Germany.)
I think one things for sure, if any of the above were happening, I don’t think you would have seen NATO split in this version of T2K history as happened in v1. canon.
Also, the question of if NATO would have used nukes at the end on friendly soil with probable heavy civilian casualties is an interesting one, because in my view I would not be surprised that they would not use them. I think perhaps they would have tried to regroup in the UK and fight there way back into Europe via Spain or Italy if that route remained open.
I quick Soviet victory in Europe certainly makes for an interestingly different T2K world IMHO…No strategic nukes being used, so the US and the rest of the world are still intact. Soviet “domination” of most of Europe at long last (southern Europe would be dealt with later)
The Soviet navy coming out on top in the battle of the North Atlantic…the UK cut off. The West having to face the fact that after 50 years of preparing to fight the "Soviet Dragon"…they lost.
Might make for a world almost as interesting as the “real” T2K.
What do you guys think ?
Dogger
*********
Webstral
Interesting possibility. I'd enjoy reading more.
Webstral
*********
TiggerCCW UK
Sounds very interesting. Please post some more details.
TiggerCCW UK
*********
Abbott Shaull
Nukes in Germany
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now IIRC the US did have plans and Tactical Nukes pre-position in West Germany for a number of year. The theory was if the Soviets were making it run to the Rhine and they it looks as if the Reinforcement wouldn't make it....
Well let's just say in the 60s, 70s, and even into the 80s several SEALs and Green Berets had been select for sucidial mission and what several West Germans wouldn't know what happen. Of course they would be the lucky ones, because I can see West Germany and France as well with the exception of the UK just balking at this. The only reason the UK wouldn't really balk is that I believe they would have similiar intention not only in Germany, but in Norway too but that is JMHO.
Abbott
Abbott Shaull
*********
Dogger Hmm well my thinking is that even if NATO is beaten in Europe and US/UK forces are forced to retreat to the UK, WWIII will still rage on in the other theaters around the globe.
As Soviet forces approached the French frontier I would expect to see France sue for peace/make a deal with the USSR (even tho I’m thinking she still would not have been contemplating entering into the fight as the US/UK and Canada were, in fact I can see one of reasons that NATO did not get involved in time in this version could have been due to French interfering/stalling of NATO.)
Soviet forces would most likely occupy the Low Countries. Norway would be on her own especially if NATO had (at least at this stage in the fight) lost the first battle of the Atlantic. No American or British reinforcements would be heading her way any time soon.
NATO’s southern flank of Italy, Greece and Turkey if they presented a united front could possibly hold the line long enough for some form of NATO reinforcement to arrive (most likely light units brought in by air.)
Going off of Webstrals narrative that Saddam would still be alive and well in Iraq with an army that was rebuilt by the USSR after the Gulf War, I think the situation in the Middle East would unfold much as it did in the v1. time line; CENCOM would still have to be forced to deploy to the Gulf and fight in Iran (against the Soviets), and in Saudi Arabia (against Saddam).
In Korea things also would go much the same as v1. North Korea attacks the ROK.
The big looser (other then western Europe) in a quick Soviet victory in Europe would be China. The USSR could re-focus it’s attention on the PRC and shift men and martial to that effort, I think however at some point the war in China would still bog down for the Soviets, the question would be would they end up resorting to nukes as in v1. or would they just consolidate they’re holdings to date.
Another fallout of NATO’s defeat would be political you can count on the US and UK leaders suffering for a military defeat in Europe. Most likely to the point of loosing their job’s
I believe the political upheaval and chaos would be bad through out the Western nations as a whole. That chaos would no doubt help the Soviets prosecution of the war.
*** sig *** __________________
Dogger
*********
zek
having seen first hand now for the last 11 years how most soviet
equipment is flat out junk. I think that nato would have shot the soviet tanks to pieces. it would have been one hell of a fight, but its not like the us forces would have been supprised in their barracks. they would have already been forward deployed to their battle positions in west germany. just my thoughts.
john