kato13
03-15-2010, 04:02 AM
**********
Blackrider
where is the Austrian Army?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
one thing has always bothered me about both version 1 and 2 twilights, they never incuded any information on the Austrian army. the small arms guide does have the personal weapons used but no orbats and unit histories. any ideas?
**********
shrike6
I believe they were absorbed into the German Army.
**********
thefusilier
Yeah thats right as the Italians and Soviets invaded Austria. Some German units in the NATO guidebook say which units absorbed Austrian troops who fell back into Germany.
**********
antimedic
Antennas site has a section on the German 1st Gerb. Division, and 1 of the Brigades is Austrian.
**********
Blackrider
how large was the Austrian army before the war?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes but i doubt that all if the austroan army would make up just one brigade, how many brigades/ dvisions did they have prior to the war
**********
shrike6
Well black, the Austrian's standing alert force (active army) numbers 10,000 although with full activation of the army that number jumps to 120,000. The standing alert force is spread out through three mechanized brigades, an air assault battalion and the jagskommando (special forces) battalion disparsed through three corps (regional commands). Each brigade is configured 1 mechanized battalion, 1 armored battalion and 1 artillery battalion.
Each Corps also contains 1 ADA, 1 field artillery, 1 anti-tank, and 1 engineer battalion kept at cadre strength in peace time. 1 logistic regiment per corps at cadre strength as well.
The Reserve forces for the Austrian Army, in case your interested, are divided between the mobile militia (Mobile Landwehr) and and the stationary militia (Raumgebundene Landwehr). The Mobile Militia consists of six reserve brigades to be deployed to key danger spots in the event of mobilization. The Stationary Militia of twenty-six reserve infantry regiments organized for territorial defense. Both the mobile militia and the stationary militia were brought up to strength only in times of mobilization or during periods allotted for refresher training, usually three weeks in June.
Training of conscripts was conducted by twenty-eight training and equipment-holding regiments. On mobilization, these regiments would disband, with their cadre reassigned to lead reserve units or form replacement regiments and battalions.
Also remember the Italians swept through Austria in approximatelly 2 weeks.
**********
Antenna
Well, the gebirgjaeger Divisions austrian Bde I only made to rebuild the german gebirgjaeger Division .... There would be of course more of them in NATO banners I belive. But if I put it this way, look on the european map and think that at least t corps would be pointed towards WarsawaPact and the third kept more in a central position (I somewhere read that this would be a case of a future WW3 scenario). That would make it fairly easy for Italy to rush thru and smash Austria and leave at least 70% of those 120.000 men(prewar) trapped between WP and italy. that leaves around 42.000 that would be able to get to Germany (now I'm not counting losses yet). Lets then consider then that 20-30% would make it to germany (say 25%) that would be 10.500 men. This would be around July/97.
Now lets just say that 50% of these 10.500 Austiran soliders would die or be put out of battle ?
That leaves us with around 5.000 men (roughly 3-4 brigades in NATO banners). So I mapped one of them (up to you to use it or not) then there is the question of the two other brigades ? would they be their own units in southern Germany or be incorporated in other NATO units ?
Well, what I just did was playing with the fact of the map for austria and some estimated numbers.
Well, I would make two new Brigades or a mini-division like the Canadian 1st Amrored Division (4th MechBde + 5th MechBde) for the T2k world if I where you to just fill in the gaps of the World history.
Well I gave you my 2 cents on this matter
Antenna
**********
pmulcahy
I've always imagined the Austrian reservists as sort of "going guerilla," leading a large, valiant underground fight for their country against the Pact and Italians. Then again, my players once found a living band of Neanderthals in the Swiss Alps, so...
**********
Antenna
Swedish Armed Forces if they would be overrun was expected to "Go Guerilla" also. But then a swedish Infantry Bde was only supposed to attack only once, after that it was ineffective of fighting any longer couse of losses (this is true for Swedish Inf Bde before 88').
But then many of my friends when they got older said that they wouldn't run to forrest with a couple of rounds of ammo and a AK4 to shoot enemies. So I think this thing that swedish Officers expected us to become guerilla was just a dream from generals =)
Antenna
**********
Blackrider
the remains of the Austrian Army
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i forgot about the italian invasion, but still i think there would be more units remaining austrian, but i could be wrong . there was also the heavy atrision campaign that was fought in southern germany and this is cannon. does anyone have a idea of Austrian TOE? and what sort of vehicles they use?
*** sig *** __________________
"those who speak of the glory of war, have never seen it," Gen. William Tecumsah Sherman
**********
Antenna
This is estimated Force 95
AFVs
SK-105 Kürassier-250
M60A3-109
APCs
4K3FA-215
4K3FA-FS-38
4K4FA-Fu/FIA-12
4H4FA-San Ambulance-15
4K4FA-G2 20 mm Gun-76
4K4FA FuA-60
Jaguar 1-89
Wheeled Armoured Vehicles
Pandur all variants-68
SP Howitzers
M109A2-189
Weapons
155 mm SFK M-2 155 mm Gun-24
M68 105 mm-171
L7A1 105 mm Gun-228
120 mm M-43 Mortar-244
M2/M30 100 mm Mortar-76
M42 40 mm Air Defense-38
GDF 35 mm Air Defense-74
GAI-BO1 20 mm Truck Mounted-552
Bill RBS-56 Missile-226
Mistral Surface-to-Air defense-76
155 mm M115 Gun
110 mm Panzerfaust 3 Anti-Tank
120 mm M12-1111 Bohler Mortar
M43 100 mm Mortar
L16 81 mm Mortar
M181 mm Mortar
M29 81 mm Mortar
M8 Bohler 81 mm Mortar
C6 Bohler 60 mm
Carl Gustaf M3 84 mm Anti-Tank
Miniman 74 mm Anti-Tank
Law 66 mm Anti-Tank
M51 130 mm MRLS
M40A1 106 mm Recoilless Rifle
L70 40 mm Air Defense
**********
shrike6
I know a number of those large caliber towed guns are in fixed positions facing Yugoslavia/Slovenia and Czechoslovakia.
*** sig *** __________________
True peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of justice.
**********
thefusilier
Antenna,
Could you ellaborate what you were saying about the difference between a Swedish Inf Bde before and after '88?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antenna
Swedish Armed Forces if they would be overrun was expected to "Go Guerilla" also. But then a swedish Infantry Bde was only supposed to attack only once, after that it was ineffective of fighting any longer couse of losses (this is true for Swedish Inf Bde before 88').
But then many of my friends when they got older said that they wouldn't run to forrest with a couple of rounds of ammo and a AK4 to shoot enemies. So I think this thing that swedish Officers expected us to become guerilla was just a dream from generals =)
Antenna
**********
Antenna
Well I could tell before 88/89 and after 94/95...
Before 88 round 70% of the infantry bde wasn't mobile rather they moved on bike draged after a tractor, popular name was bicycle-bde. The rest of the infantry was under armor. Then we must know that Sweden had roughly 25 Bde's 88 (I'm not really sure on the numbers here).
round 89/90 there was a decision to put all fighting forces under armor and the process of training up Mech Inf begun.
94/95 there would be enough infantry to muster up those 12-14 Mech, Arctic and Inf Bde's all under armor. Also the old weapon systems was kept for a while after 94/95 to be phased out and have the option to field Bdes from the Org before 88/89.
So here you have first the change of Org between 88 to 94/95...
Then you must know the thought of enemy for Sweden has allways been Sovietunion and Russia (sweden has been in war with Russia at many times thru history).
What would a bicycle Bde meet on the battle field? Well BMP-1/2 T-62/72 is the answer.
Also we need to know that Russia has allways loved their Artillery.
Then "if" a Swedish light Bde would attack there would be only one attack. The tactics for these bicycle Bdes would to dig in, in what we in Sweden called a "hedgehog" defence. But we seen that war allready in Iraq 91' just that the Iraqis would be sweden and what I belive the USA would be "ol' Bear Russia". There is still a difference between Iraqi 91' Sweden is mostly forrest and that would be (as I told) that was a plus for defenders.
Hope this is enough to answer your question thefusilier...
Antenna
**********
ReHerakhte
Although it's unlikely to make a big impact on the state of the war, there are some other Austrian units that might consider 'going guerrilla'. The Austrian state police forces were fielding special police teams along the lines of GSG-9 by the mid-1990s. There purpose was to counter terrorist groups and 'hard' crime groups like the Russian Mafia (i.e. groups with military training and/or equipment) so their training was of very high level.
From memory they have performed very well against other special police units and have won a number of competitions competing against other units worldwide. I have some more info in a book somewhere, I'll just have to drag it out.
Typical equipment is much like other European police special units.
Cheers,
Kevin
**********
Antenna
310th Austrian Mountain Division
301st Austrian Mountain Brigade
303rd Austrian Mountain Brigade
307th Austrian Mechanized Brigade
305th Austrian Tank Battalion
310th Austrian Engineer Battalion
310th High Altitude Company
(2.400 men)
(7 TAM TH-301, 2 M60A3, 4 Kürrasier, 9 4K3FA, 3 Jaguar-1)
(3 M109A2, 4 FH-77, 12 81mm Mortars)
Detachment 329
(40 SF type soliders)
If I'm not wrong so the Austrian Regiments consists of 2 battalions in lieu with WW1 and WW2 organizations.
The 311th Mnt Div got some heavy equipment from Germany and allied forces to muster up looses.
**********
Antenna
The second and last division from Antenna ... Just a suggestion what would be found in germany 2000 in T2k world.
311th Austrian Mountain Division
302nd Austrian Mountain Brigade
304th Austrian Mountain Brigade
306th Austrian Tank Battalion
311th Austrian Engineer Battalion
311th High Altitude Company
(1.800 men)
(12 TAM TH-301)
(6 FH-77, 12 81mm Mortars)
Antenna
Blackrider
where is the Austrian Army?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
one thing has always bothered me about both version 1 and 2 twilights, they never incuded any information on the Austrian army. the small arms guide does have the personal weapons used but no orbats and unit histories. any ideas?
**********
shrike6
I believe they were absorbed into the German Army.
**********
thefusilier
Yeah thats right as the Italians and Soviets invaded Austria. Some German units in the NATO guidebook say which units absorbed Austrian troops who fell back into Germany.
**********
antimedic
Antennas site has a section on the German 1st Gerb. Division, and 1 of the Brigades is Austrian.
**********
Blackrider
how large was the Austrian army before the war?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes but i doubt that all if the austroan army would make up just one brigade, how many brigades/ dvisions did they have prior to the war
**********
shrike6
Well black, the Austrian's standing alert force (active army) numbers 10,000 although with full activation of the army that number jumps to 120,000. The standing alert force is spread out through three mechanized brigades, an air assault battalion and the jagskommando (special forces) battalion disparsed through three corps (regional commands). Each brigade is configured 1 mechanized battalion, 1 armored battalion and 1 artillery battalion.
Each Corps also contains 1 ADA, 1 field artillery, 1 anti-tank, and 1 engineer battalion kept at cadre strength in peace time. 1 logistic regiment per corps at cadre strength as well.
The Reserve forces for the Austrian Army, in case your interested, are divided between the mobile militia (Mobile Landwehr) and and the stationary militia (Raumgebundene Landwehr). The Mobile Militia consists of six reserve brigades to be deployed to key danger spots in the event of mobilization. The Stationary Militia of twenty-six reserve infantry regiments organized for territorial defense. Both the mobile militia and the stationary militia were brought up to strength only in times of mobilization or during periods allotted for refresher training, usually three weeks in June.
Training of conscripts was conducted by twenty-eight training and equipment-holding regiments. On mobilization, these regiments would disband, with their cadre reassigned to lead reserve units or form replacement regiments and battalions.
Also remember the Italians swept through Austria in approximatelly 2 weeks.
**********
Antenna
Well, the gebirgjaeger Divisions austrian Bde I only made to rebuild the german gebirgjaeger Division .... There would be of course more of them in NATO banners I belive. But if I put it this way, look on the european map and think that at least t corps would be pointed towards WarsawaPact and the third kept more in a central position (I somewhere read that this would be a case of a future WW3 scenario). That would make it fairly easy for Italy to rush thru and smash Austria and leave at least 70% of those 120.000 men(prewar) trapped between WP and italy. that leaves around 42.000 that would be able to get to Germany (now I'm not counting losses yet). Lets then consider then that 20-30% would make it to germany (say 25%) that would be 10.500 men. This would be around July/97.
Now lets just say that 50% of these 10.500 Austiran soliders would die or be put out of battle ?
That leaves us with around 5.000 men (roughly 3-4 brigades in NATO banners). So I mapped one of them (up to you to use it or not) then there is the question of the two other brigades ? would they be their own units in southern Germany or be incorporated in other NATO units ?
Well, what I just did was playing with the fact of the map for austria and some estimated numbers.
Well, I would make two new Brigades or a mini-division like the Canadian 1st Amrored Division (4th MechBde + 5th MechBde) for the T2k world if I where you to just fill in the gaps of the World history.
Well I gave you my 2 cents on this matter
Antenna
**********
pmulcahy
I've always imagined the Austrian reservists as sort of "going guerilla," leading a large, valiant underground fight for their country against the Pact and Italians. Then again, my players once found a living band of Neanderthals in the Swiss Alps, so...
**********
Antenna
Swedish Armed Forces if they would be overrun was expected to "Go Guerilla" also. But then a swedish Infantry Bde was only supposed to attack only once, after that it was ineffective of fighting any longer couse of losses (this is true for Swedish Inf Bde before 88').
But then many of my friends when they got older said that they wouldn't run to forrest with a couple of rounds of ammo and a AK4 to shoot enemies. So I think this thing that swedish Officers expected us to become guerilla was just a dream from generals =)
Antenna
**********
Blackrider
the remains of the Austrian Army
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i forgot about the italian invasion, but still i think there would be more units remaining austrian, but i could be wrong . there was also the heavy atrision campaign that was fought in southern germany and this is cannon. does anyone have a idea of Austrian TOE? and what sort of vehicles they use?
*** sig *** __________________
"those who speak of the glory of war, have never seen it," Gen. William Tecumsah Sherman
**********
Antenna
This is estimated Force 95
AFVs
SK-105 Kürassier-250
M60A3-109
APCs
4K3FA-215
4K3FA-FS-38
4K4FA-Fu/FIA-12
4H4FA-San Ambulance-15
4K4FA-G2 20 mm Gun-76
4K4FA FuA-60
Jaguar 1-89
Wheeled Armoured Vehicles
Pandur all variants-68
SP Howitzers
M109A2-189
Weapons
155 mm SFK M-2 155 mm Gun-24
M68 105 mm-171
L7A1 105 mm Gun-228
120 mm M-43 Mortar-244
M2/M30 100 mm Mortar-76
M42 40 mm Air Defense-38
GDF 35 mm Air Defense-74
GAI-BO1 20 mm Truck Mounted-552
Bill RBS-56 Missile-226
Mistral Surface-to-Air defense-76
155 mm M115 Gun
110 mm Panzerfaust 3 Anti-Tank
120 mm M12-1111 Bohler Mortar
M43 100 mm Mortar
L16 81 mm Mortar
M181 mm Mortar
M29 81 mm Mortar
M8 Bohler 81 mm Mortar
C6 Bohler 60 mm
Carl Gustaf M3 84 mm Anti-Tank
Miniman 74 mm Anti-Tank
Law 66 mm Anti-Tank
M51 130 mm MRLS
M40A1 106 mm Recoilless Rifle
L70 40 mm Air Defense
**********
shrike6
I know a number of those large caliber towed guns are in fixed positions facing Yugoslavia/Slovenia and Czechoslovakia.
*** sig *** __________________
True peace is not the absence of conflict but the presence of justice.
**********
thefusilier
Antenna,
Could you ellaborate what you were saying about the difference between a Swedish Inf Bde before and after '88?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antenna
Swedish Armed Forces if they would be overrun was expected to "Go Guerilla" also. But then a swedish Infantry Bde was only supposed to attack only once, after that it was ineffective of fighting any longer couse of losses (this is true for Swedish Inf Bde before 88').
But then many of my friends when they got older said that they wouldn't run to forrest with a couple of rounds of ammo and a AK4 to shoot enemies. So I think this thing that swedish Officers expected us to become guerilla was just a dream from generals =)
Antenna
**********
Antenna
Well I could tell before 88/89 and after 94/95...
Before 88 round 70% of the infantry bde wasn't mobile rather they moved on bike draged after a tractor, popular name was bicycle-bde. The rest of the infantry was under armor. Then we must know that Sweden had roughly 25 Bde's 88 (I'm not really sure on the numbers here).
round 89/90 there was a decision to put all fighting forces under armor and the process of training up Mech Inf begun.
94/95 there would be enough infantry to muster up those 12-14 Mech, Arctic and Inf Bde's all under armor. Also the old weapon systems was kept for a while after 94/95 to be phased out and have the option to field Bdes from the Org before 88/89.
So here you have first the change of Org between 88 to 94/95...
Then you must know the thought of enemy for Sweden has allways been Sovietunion and Russia (sweden has been in war with Russia at many times thru history).
What would a bicycle Bde meet on the battle field? Well BMP-1/2 T-62/72 is the answer.
Also we need to know that Russia has allways loved their Artillery.
Then "if" a Swedish light Bde would attack there would be only one attack. The tactics for these bicycle Bdes would to dig in, in what we in Sweden called a "hedgehog" defence. But we seen that war allready in Iraq 91' just that the Iraqis would be sweden and what I belive the USA would be "ol' Bear Russia". There is still a difference between Iraqi 91' Sweden is mostly forrest and that would be (as I told) that was a plus for defenders.
Hope this is enough to answer your question thefusilier...
Antenna
**********
ReHerakhte
Although it's unlikely to make a big impact on the state of the war, there are some other Austrian units that might consider 'going guerrilla'. The Austrian state police forces were fielding special police teams along the lines of GSG-9 by the mid-1990s. There purpose was to counter terrorist groups and 'hard' crime groups like the Russian Mafia (i.e. groups with military training and/or equipment) so their training was of very high level.
From memory they have performed very well against other special police units and have won a number of competitions competing against other units worldwide. I have some more info in a book somewhere, I'll just have to drag it out.
Typical equipment is much like other European police special units.
Cheers,
Kevin
**********
Antenna
310th Austrian Mountain Division
301st Austrian Mountain Brigade
303rd Austrian Mountain Brigade
307th Austrian Mechanized Brigade
305th Austrian Tank Battalion
310th Austrian Engineer Battalion
310th High Altitude Company
(2.400 men)
(7 TAM TH-301, 2 M60A3, 4 Kürrasier, 9 4K3FA, 3 Jaguar-1)
(3 M109A2, 4 FH-77, 12 81mm Mortars)
Detachment 329
(40 SF type soliders)
If I'm not wrong so the Austrian Regiments consists of 2 battalions in lieu with WW1 and WW2 organizations.
The 311th Mnt Div got some heavy equipment from Germany and allied forces to muster up looses.
**********
Antenna
The second and last division from Antenna ... Just a suggestion what would be found in germany 2000 in T2k world.
311th Austrian Mountain Division
302nd Austrian Mountain Brigade
304th Austrian Mountain Brigade
306th Austrian Tank Battalion
311th Austrian Engineer Battalion
311th High Altitude Company
(1.800 men)
(12 TAM TH-301)
(6 FH-77, 12 81mm Mortars)
Antenna