Red Dawn Remake!

[Frank Frey]

Greetings,

On November 24th, 2010, the remake of the Reagan Era/Cold War classic "Red Dawn" will hit the theatres in time for the holiday season. I gotta tell you troopers, while I reallyl liked the original, I'm not holding out much hope for the remake.
According to what I've been able to dig up, the Chinese launch an airborne assault on Spokane, Washington. The plot synopsis makes it sound a bit more Twilight than Twilight 2000. I dunno. What do the rest of you think?

Out Here,
Frank Frey

[pmulcahy11b]

We had a discussion on this a few months back; the general consensus was No, No, NO! The horror...

[kato13]

Yeah in general it has not gotten much support here. The Chinese are not the Red Bear of my youth so most likely I will catch it on video at some point.

Previous threads.

Red Dawn 2010 rant!
OT: "Red Dawn" To Be Remade

[Legbreaker]

Chances are (as usual) the trailer will include all the good bits and the rest of the movie (especially the plot) will be one great big steaming pile of bison crap.

Still, it's always possible we'll be surprised and it turns out to be not half bad...

[Webstral]

The idea of the Chinese invading is beyond silly, although I still love Fortress America. By the way, is there anyone in Northern California who'd be interested in a game? I have a copy with only one or two missing/broken pieces.

Webstral

[headquarters]

I hope that people here arnt provoked when I say that the premiss for the original Red Dawn wasnt exactly credible either - the USSR wouldnt have a prayer if they tried to invade CONUS.Cuban auxilliaries or not .

As for teh artistic merit of the film itself -well lay just say that opinions vary on the subject.


But I did love the movie when it came out in Norway .And it did color my views for the next decade or so. I still love it - but now for all "the wrong reasons".

As for the Chinese invading the US .

LOL.

But con grano sal and a hefty dose of suspension of disbelief it could be an enjoyable b-movie .A sci fi film or action movie that can claim no reality strings attached.

Definently going to see it at some point .

[kato13]

Was just reading the IMDB page. The director has 24 years as both a second unit director and stunt coordinator, but this is his first project as lead director. Not quite sure how to read that beyond the fact that action will probably take precedence over plot.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0103187/

[Cdnwolf]

Now vampire or zombie chinese soldiers invading the USA might make it worth watching!!

[Marc]

But con grano sal and a hefty dose of suspension of disbelief it could be an enjoyable b-movie .A sci fi film or action movie that can claim no reality strings attached.

Definently going to see it at some point .

Probably this will be the right predisposition required to enjoy the film. I hope the first minutes of the movie won’t destroy it.

An added factor is, of course, our current age. I was a teenager when I saw “Red Dawn” and my “suspension of disbelief” was in “automatic mode”. The little cinema of my town, now closed, showed two consecutive movies each Saturday and Sunday. You paid only for one movie and watched both, spending all the afternoon in the theater. They were movies shown with years of delay if compared with the theaters in Barcelona. So I went with my sister to watch ET, while “Red Dawn”, the second movie was totally unknown to me (“Red Dawn” went nearly unnoticed in Spain). My sister left the theater crying with ET in mind while I was jubilant with the heroic deeds of the Wolverines.

[Legbreaker]

I hope that people here arnt provoked when I say that the premiss for the original Red Dawn wasnt exactly credible either - the USSR wouldnt have a prayer if they tried to invade CONUS.Cuban auxilliaries or not.
Don't forget that in the opening moments of the original we're informed the US has somehow managed to alienate all of it's potential allies and basically the entire world is against it.
The invasion is not just by Soviets and Cubans - they're just the only nationalities involved in the AO of the characters.

[headquarters]

Don't forget that in the opening moments of the original we're informed the US has somehow managed to alienate all of it's potential allies and basically the entire world is against it.
The invasion is not just by Soviets and Cubans - they're just the only nationalities involved in the AO of the characters.

right .

well as I said - not exactly the most credible backstory/plot for the original then.

Not to mention the red scare factor and all .

but as a heroic story of combatting oppression -go wolverines by all means.
A small band of civillians get together and fight back using irregular tactics against a highly organized and well equipped occupation force.

I think I am going to see it again one of these days .As far as cold war mementoes goes, this one is a landmark.

[Targan]

well as I said - not exactly the most credible backstory/plot for the original then.

The US alienate its allies? Never happen... right?

[kato13]

Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years...

Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade...

Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000. El Salvador and Honduras fall...

Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil...

Mexico plunged into revolution...

NATO dissolves. United States stands alone.

To refresh our memories.

[JimmyRay73]

"Who IS on our side?"

"600 million screamin' Chinamen."

"I thought it was a billion?"

"It was." FOOM!

[sglancy12]

I think we all agree that the invasion scenario for Red Dawn was like something out of the 1950s. 5 Soviet army groups come across the Bering Strait? From where to where? Until you get to Anchorage there's no logistical transport net to move materials south and east. We've had this discussion on this site many times before concerning TW2K's Aleutian Front invasion of Alaska. But let's put all the logistical suspension of disbelief aside for a moment.

What I remember about Red Dawn when it first came out was all the political hubbub about it. This was the same era that produced The Day After and Amerika as television events. People were ranting about how Red Dawn was some sick Reaganite fantasy being used to justify the massive military build up at the time. Such reactions were often coupled with people's fears that "The Gipper" was so addle-minded that he wasn't really running the country and that somewhere there was a cabal of advisers who were planning to comfortably sit out WWIII in bunkers filled with hookers and blow while the rest of us died while vomiting out our teeth.

Turns out we didn't blow up the world because the senile President thought he was in a movie. Turns out the Soviets went bankrupt trying to keep up with us. And it turns out that Red Dawn has more going on in it than just being an advertisement for the NRA.

At the time, I didn't think much of the film. The idea that the Soviet Army could kick the shit out the US Army on our home soil but couldn't get a grip on less than a dozen untrained kids was just downright stupid. But over the years I started to gain an appreciation for the incredible work that was done creating props for the film. The Soviet vehicles created were all top flight, especially the Hind-A helicopters. I also had to appreciate the director's attention to detail concerning all the firearms props. The films looks extremely good, especially considering the modest budget.

Ultimately though, I learned to love Red Dawn because of an interview with John Milius, the writer/director. Milius was always one of my favorite directors. He gave us the only good sword & sorcery film of that era (Conan the Barbarian), and really good period piece action films (like Dillinger, The Wind and the Lion and Jerimiah Johnson).

Anyways, Milius said in the interview that when he was a kid growing up in Colorado in the 1950s that he was subjected to equally heavy doses of Cold War Red Scare and frontier history. He and his friends spent a lot of time reading about frontiersman like Jim Bridger and the like. So when they went out to play, they would pretend that the Russians had invaded and that he and his fellow grade school commandos would have to defeat the Red Army using all that back-woods Indian lore they'd learned. Well, fast forward 30 years and somehow John Milius found money out in Hollywood to finance putting his childhood fantasy game on the big screen. That would be the same thing as any of us getting to make a movie out of our favorite Role-playing game.

On that level, I gained a new appreciation for Red Dawn.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Targan]

Such reactions were often coupled with people's fears that "The Gipper" was so addle-minded that he wasn't really running the country and that somewhere there was a cabal of advisers who were planning to comfortably sit out WWIII in bunkers filled with hookers and blow while the rest of us died of vomiting out our teeth.

You know, whenever I see a new post in the thread list with your name on it I go straight to that new post before all others, specifically just to read lines like that. You, sir, are a wordsmith.:D

[Marc]

1100

Some images in the site: http://www.reddawn2010.com/ Don't miss "Naked Dawn"!!

[sglancy12]

You, sir, are a wordsmith.:D

Yeah, well a wordsmith wouldn't have left a typo in there... which I have now corrected. Thanks for the compliment. Please immediately follow up your kind words with kind purchases of Delta Green products.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Webstral]

I hope that people here arnt provoked when I say that the premiss for the original Red Dawn wasnt exactly credible either - the USSR wouldnt have a prayer if they tried to invade CONUS.Cuban auxilliaries or not .

I had a headquarters job during my enlisted time, and there were many interesting conversations in that TOC. One of them was about Red Dawn. We discussed at length the challenges of invading the US, even given an absence of the use of nukes. It would be hard to imagine an American military more highly motivated than one defending our soil from the Red hordes in the 1980's. Getting the troops to fall back to trade space for time would be a problem in some cases. However, a Red "breakout" would mean driving into a sea of hostile armed civilians. Those poor guys had better hope they were captured by soldiers, who might feel somewhat bound by the Geneva Convention.

Still, the story makes a good right-wing fantasy. I still enjoy watching it from time to time.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

While I can appreciate the backstory has more holes than a sieve, that's not all that important to the story itself.
Basically we've got a small group of guerillas/terrorists/freedom fighters (take your pick) making a nuisance of themselves in rough terrain while the bulk of the enemy force is occupied on the front lines. While the intro is, well, a little fictional, the basic storyline is believable.

Back in the day a number of my friends (who were all Army like myself) believed that if Australia was invaded in force in a similar manner as Red Dawn, we'd be far better off hitting the hills ourselves than reporting for duty. Naturally the enemy of the day was expected to outnumber us something like 100-1, so the idea was a bit of a no-brainer.

[Canadian Army]

The Synopsis for the new Red Dawn

lt's Friday night and the residents of Spokane are consumed with the thoughts of the local high school football game. The Wolverines just lost a nail biter and the team's quarterback Matt Eckert is trying to shake off the tough loss. Adding to Matt's worries is the sudden and unexpected return of his older brother Jed (played by Chris Hemsworth, STAR TREK). After their mom died, Jed left town with no warning and enlisted in the military. Now Jed is home unexpectedly after serving in Afghanistan and the brothers' relationship is strained at best. After some encouraging words from his dad and his girlfriend Erica, Matt heads home to sleep off his loss. The next morning Matt is startled awake as their whole house shakes violently. Running outside, Matt and Jed find the sky filled with parachutes and the streets lined with military vehicles. For the first time in history, the United States is being occupied by foreign armies. The invaders are calling themselves the "People's Liberation Army" and they easily outnumber the citizens of Spokane. Matt and Jed's worst nightmares are actualized as missiles scream into nearby houses, rocking them with explosions. On the once quiet streets of their neighborhood, U.S. citizens are being rounded up and taken prisoner. Suddenly, with horror, Matt realizes that the foreign invaders have captured his father and his girlfriend Erica. Matt screams out to them, vowing to save them as Jed drags his brother away to safety.

With the town completely overrun by the enemy, Matt and Jed watch helplessly as their father gives up his life to protect his family, allowing his sons to escape into the Cascade mountains. Determined to fight for their community and rescue what's left of their hometown, the brothers assemble a ragtag group of high school students and begin to fight back. Being a war hero, Jed is able to train this unlikely group of heroes the same way that he was trained. Soon they are transformed into sharp shooting, camouflaged, freedom fighters. Known as the "Wolverines" (after Matt's football team), the group soon becomes a national symbol for the resistance and the hope of Americans everywhere. What this enemy didn't realize is that what makes the U.S. great is not the size of its military, but rather the men and women who wear the uniform and the communities they come from.

With the help of an underground network of scared but brave townspeople, the Wolverines quickly go from a minor nuisance to serious threat as they begin to batter away at the invaders. Using their superior knowledge of the landscape that they grew up around gives them a strategic advantage. The foreign invaders want to destroy the American way of life but the Wolverines aren't going to let that happen.

Meanwhile, Matt is searching tirelessly for his girlfriend Erica who is being held prisoner by the invaders. He will stop at nothing to rescue the girl he loves even if it means risking his life to do so. With the fate of the country on the shoulders of these small town heroes, the Wolverines must summon the courage to overcome impossible odds and unity a town against the greatest threat this country ever faced. Outnumbered and with limited supplies, the Wolverines must rely on the spirit instilled in every small town across the U.S... protect your neighbor at all costs, because even though they aren't your blood, they're still your family. RED DAWN will show you that when this country is in its darkest hour, salvation can be found where we least expect it.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1234719/synopsis

[Targan]

Please immediately follow up your kind words with kind purchases of Delta Green products.

Heh heh. Actually DG is the next system on my list of things to buy. Right now (since my long running T2K campaign ended) all my spare book-buying cash has been getting poured into buying everything I can get my hands on for Dark Heresy. Fear not, DG purchases soon!

[Targan]

The original Red Dawn just started screening on TV here. I haven't seen it in ages. I'm off to watch it. Yay!

[Gabe The Gun]

I grew up with the original and still watch it from time to time to this day, love it! I dont see any reason to remake the film at all ,other than they want to capitalize on the popularity and make some easy money. As we all know every time they try to remake something they ruin it, or they keep trying to add another sequel and run a good thing right into the fraking ground! I really hope they dont do this with a classic as perfect as Red Dawn as well as perfect cast which they cant replicate. I just dont understand why they would even go there! WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! Just leave the masterpiece alone for goodness sake people! As for my final answer.............RENTAL!

[Raellus]

I know I might take some flak for being overly PC but I'm not too thrilled about a flick that, in effect, demonizes an entire ethnic group. There are loads of Chinese-Americans here in the States and there is still a lot of latent and sometimes overt racism here as well. I still have to teach my high school sophomores that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and other Asian people are not "all the same". Do we really need a movie that makes the Chinese nation the bad guys? I know there are a lot of movies with Chinese gangsters and the like but the PRC Army invading the U.S.? That's a bit different and, IMHO, not very cool.

With the Soviets, it wasn't an ethnic group taking the fall, it was an ideology.

[Webstral]

I'd like to see a Red Dawn version for Down Under. Though still unlikely, an invasion of Australia offers the Chinese a marginally better chance of success than an invasion of the US. If memory serves, private ownership of firearms has taken a body blow. A Red Dawn for Australia might serve as good propaganda for gun ownership and the Reserves.

Webstral

[Dog 6]

I'm going to go see it and try to keep an open mind, but I'll be surprised if it's any good.

[kato13]

I know I might take some flak for being overly PC but I'm not too thrilled about a flick that, in effect, demonizes an entire ethnic group. There are loads of Chinese-Americans here in the States and there is still a lot of latent and sometimes overt racism here as well. I still have to teach my high school sophomores that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and other Asian people are not "all the same". Do we really need a movie that makes the Chinese nation the bad guys? I know there are a lot of movies with Chinese gangsters and the like but the PRC Army invading the U.S.? That's a bit different and, IMHO, not very cool.

With the Soviets, it wasn't an ethnic group taking the fall, it was an ideology.


See I view it the exact opposite way. Like it or not th US has an oftentimes antagonistic relationship with China and their people happen to be of a different race. Conflict with China could easily grow over time, possibly into a new cold war. Not many other countries have that potential. Also democracies rarely start war with other democracies. So if we are limited to non-democracies within Europe, that leaves kinda slim pickings.

Having the Chinese as the enemy also allows more Asian actors to have work. If being PC means Asians are not employed doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose. There appears to be an Asian-American (Ken Choi as "Smith") fighting against the Chinese. To be honest I did not expect this film to be complex enough to even approach that potential storyline, so good for them.

[Targan]

I know I might take some flak for being overly PC but I'm not too thrilled about a flick that, in effect, demonizes an entire ethnic group. There are loads of Chinese-Americans here in the States and there is still a lot of latent and sometimes overt racism here as well. I still have to teach my high school sophomores that Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and other Asian people are not "all the same". Do we really need a movie that makes the Chinese nation the bad guys? I know there are a lot of movies with Chinese gangsters and the like but the PRC Army invading the U.S.? That's a bit different and, IMHO, not very cool.

With the Soviets, it wasn't an ethnic group taking the fall, it was an ideology.

I think the original Red Dawn made the Cubans look pretty bad, with the exception of the Cuban colonel Bella who came out of it looking like a belated good guy.

[Raellus]

See I view it the exact opposite way. Like it or not th US has an oftentimes antagonistic relationship with China and their people happen to be of a different race. Conflict with China could easily grow over time, possibly into a new cold war. Not many other countries have that potential. Also democracies rarely start war with other democracies. So if we are limited to non-democracies within Europe, that leaves kinda slim pickings.

I am aware of America's complex historical relationship with China and that they are perhaps our biggest conventional military rival at the moment. Unfortunately, the likelihood of an armed confrontation between China and the U.S. in the next century or so is probably more likely than not. This kind of stuff certainly won't help ease the tension. It certainly won't encourage moderation, diplomacy, and cultural understanding.

Having the Chinese as the enemy also allows more Asian actors to have work. If being PC means Asians are not employed doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose. There appears to be an Asian-American (Ken Choi as "Smith") fighting against the Chinese. To be honest I did not expect this film to be complex enough to even approach that potential storyline, so good for them.

Seriously? You think the good of employing some Chinese-American actors outweighs the negative message that this film will send to every American ignoramous out there? Not likely, IMO.

I am interested in seeing how they handle a Chinese-American fighting against ethnic Chinese and especially how his other American comrades approach him.

[kato13]

I am aware of America's complex historical relationship with China and that they are perhaps our biggest conventional military rival at the moment. Unfortunately, the likelihood of an armed confrontation between China and the U.S. in the next century or so is probably more likely than not. This kind of stuff certainly won't help ease the tension. It certainly won't encourage moderation, diplomacy, and cultural understanding.



Seriously? You think the good of employing some Chinese-American actors outweighs the negative message that this film will send to every American ignoramous out there? Not likely, IMO.

I am interested in seeing how they handle a Chinese-American fighting against ethnic Chinese and especially how his other American comrades approach him.

Most films are seen by fewer than 10% of all Americans and this film will undoubtedly be banned in China so I think you are overestimating it's impact. As you admitted conflict with China is the most likely so why not be realistic. So what it comes down to censorship and treating race as more important that it really is IMO.

Maybe it is my upbringing (in the most ethnically diverse zipcode in the US and the fact that over 30% of the couplings in both my near and extended family cross racial lines), but I really do want to move into a world where focusing on race is not even part of the equation. Naivete on my part perhaps, but I still want to move in that direction.

[Raellus]

Most films are seen by fewer than 10% of all Americans and this film will undoubtedly be banned in China so I think you are overestimating it's impact. As you admitted conflict with China is the most likely so why not be realistic. So what it comes down to censorship and treating race as more important that it really is IMO.

OK, but only .0001% (or less) of Asian-Americans will actually be gainfully employed in this film so...

Maybe it is my upbringing (in the most ethnically diverse zipcode in the US and the fact that over 30% of the couplings in both my near and extended family cross racial lines), but I really do want to move into a world where focusing on race is not even part of the equation. Naivete on my part perhaps, but I still want to move in that direction.

I agree. I wish for the same thing. Unfortunately, I see racism every day in my classes. It's really sad and frustrating for me as a person and as an educator. If only 10% of my students see this film and start (or keep) thinking of the Chinese as bad guys, then the damage will have been done. I'm not saying it'll lead to war or anything, but it's not going to produce anything good. Ignorance, fear, and suspicion don't lead anywhere good. And with Japanese internment in our not-so-distant past, the precedent for knee-jerk, essentially racist responses to crises, perceived or real, I don't think this is anything to sniff at.

[sglancy12]

This may kick the thread over into "Locked" because it is too polarizing, but I am less disturbed by the Chinese racial aspect than I am by another racial aspect of the film.

I can't help but notice that the role of the collaborating mayor is played by the actor Michael Beach. His son, is played by Connor Cruise. Both actors are African American.

So, if the film stays loyal to what happened in the first film, this "race change" is going to result in two uncomfortable things.

One: an African American elected official is going to collaborate with a foreign invader impose communism on America by force of arms.

Two: the white characters who play the Wolverines are going to have to shoot the black character for not being a loyal American.

While both of those images are a bit thorny, I have to wonder about whether the use of a black politician as a communist collaborator is at all connected to the current debate over health care reform. Since the film isn't out yet, we don't know how Mayor Jenkins and Daryll Jenkins are going to be treated in the script. My discomfort is only based on what happened in the first film coupled with some of the uglier aspects of the anti-health care reform protests.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[sglancy12]

And if this is getting too political, I would recommend deleting the political posts rather than locking the thread. I think we should keep a thread about the Red Dawn remake going. I'd rather see my posts deleted than the thread locked.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

I don't think this thread needs to be locked at least not yet.

From what I have heard the script is close to the original but "quite a bit has been changed". I will admit I can see a potential black Mayor collaborator being exploited by some people for his race in the current political climate. That casting decision is very interesting to me as you are correct in that it potentially invites controversy. There is another black wolverine, Edwin Hodge. So perhaps if the "traitor in the midst" part of the story stays true he is the one who delivers the killing shot (in an effort to mitigate some potential backlash). I will be totally honest that even in the original I was never comfortable with that part of the story.

Given that the screenwriters and director are really unknown entities I honestly don't know what to expect from this film.

[kato13]

If only 10% of my students see this film and start (or keep) thinking of the Chinese as bad guys, then the damage will have been done.

The Chinese government are bad guys IMO (I still remember Tiananmen). I have a feeling that the average Chinese soldier in the film will be presented with some sympathy just like the fake translating soldier was in the original. Even the Cuban Colonel had some sympathy at the end of the film. There are also Russians in the mix so again I don't know exactly what to expect (maybe they will have Russians commit all the mass killings). I am optimistic given that there is an Asian American freedom fighter in the film. I hope that this film is about being an American not about any particular race.

[kato13]

OK, but only .0001% (or less) of Asian-Americans will actually be gainfully employed in this film so...


Sorry the math nut in me was bothered by this statistic so I had to double check it. .0001% of 15 million would be 15. Including extras and stuntmen I expect that hundreds were probably employed so lets call it .001%

Oh I was just reading the script history and originally one of the female leads was to be Asian American. However Isabel Lucas was cast for that part (female transformer from Transformers II)

[kato13]

Here is the IMFDB page for the original Red dawn

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php/Red_Dawn

Brings back good memories.

[kato13]

Some pics

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7065/chineseinvasionofameric.jpg

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/7400/chineseinvasionofamerice.jpg

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6033/71359509.jpg

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/672/phocathumblreddawn5.jpg

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4079/phocathumblstage3.jpg

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7065/chineseinvasionofameric.jpg

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4641/chineseinvasionofamericw.jpg

http://www.reddawn2010.com/images/phocagallery/pontiac/sleepingbear/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_dangerous%20citizens.jpg

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7065/chineseinvasionofameric.jpg

Edit some more here

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5042c5310100gjxt.html

Interesting from my reading of the translation the Chinese blogger seems proud that China has supplanted Russia
In Hollywood's movie, takes frequently Russia the simulated enemy, now this simulated enemy turned China, looked like China indeed is formidable in US's heart.

[Webstral]

Based on the handful of shots we have seen of vehicles, it looks like the remake has abandoned the commitment of the original to using the right vehicles for the enemy.

How many of us would have our photos on the wall, I wonder?

Webstral

[kato13]

How many of us would have our photos on the wall, I wonder?

I found an updated version and apparently there are many dangerous American and Canadian Citizens here.

[Webstral]

Tell them danged Canucks to get themselves on a wall in their own danged country.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Here's a possibility: The Chinese don't invade with a military army. They simply impound the US due to lack of payment of the loans financing our national debt, and send an army of accountants, bankers, and auditors...

[pmulcahy11b]

Based on the handful of shots we have seen of vehicles, it looks like the remake has abandoned the commitment of the original to using the right vehicles for the enemy.

How many of us would have our photos on the wall, I wonder?

Webstral

The Chinese do seem to be using primarily Canadian vehicles and HMMWVs -- hey, are the Canadians helping the Chinese in this invasion?!!:p

As for me being on the wall -- I'd sleep through the war, due to the side-effects of my medication...

[Legbreaker]

Good to see us Australians aren't on the wall. Probably because we're supplying China with all the iron ore and coal they need to make their war machines. :p

[Dog 6]

wow that's some sad looking AFV's :(

[StainlessSteelCynic]

A friend pointed me to the following sites, it seems the remake is using armoured vehicles from a company in Michigan
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gpv/
http://www.gpv.com/marshall6x6x6.htm

[pmulcahy11b]

A friend pointed me to the following sites, it seems the remake is using armoured vehicles from a company in Michigan
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gpv/
http://www.gpv.com/marshall6x6x6.htm


Hmmmm...I still think the idea of a Chinese/Canadian conspiracy is worth exploring;)

[Frank Frey]

Dammit, don't confuse the issue with facts! I have a highly placed,secret source that has told me that the Peoples Republic of Far Northern Canuckistan is in Cahoots( IIRC that's just outside of Saskatoon) with the Evil Pan Eurasian Red Commie Empire of Chinese Marxists. That's why they're using CANADIAN equipment. They're come swarming over the border and inflict amenties upon the helpless population. Oh the humanity... Gotta go...time for my meds.:D

Grand Commander J.B. Claggette
Commander in Chief
The Free Soil Unified Militia of South Ridge Trailer Park

[Dog 6]

Dammit, don't confuse the issue with facts! I have a highly placed,secret source that has told me that the Peoples Republic of Far Northern Canuckistan is in Cahoots( IIRC that's just outside of Saskatoon) with the Evil Pan Eurasian Red Commie Empire of Chinese Marxists. That's why they're using CANADIAN equipment. They're come swarming over the border and inflict amenties upon the helpless population. Oh the humanity... Gotta go...time for my meds.:D

Grand Commander J.B. Claggette
Commander in Chief
The Free Soil Unified Militia of South Ridge Trailer Park

LMFAO

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Humvees for the Chinese isn't so surprising as they have a licence to manufacture their own version for the military
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Mobility_Multipurpose_Wheeled_Vehicle_manufac turing_in_China

[Webstral]

Humvees for the Chinese isn't so surprising as they have a licence to manufacture their own version for the military
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Mobility_Multipurpose_Wheeled_Vehicle_manufac turing_in_China

Then it would make sense for them to bring some along so that captured American vehicles could be cannibalized for spares.

I still don't think the Chinese have much of a chance, once the Billy Bobs of the nation get mobilized. Provided these boys can be kept in hog snouts, fried chicken necks, and chaw, them Asian Reds don't stand a snowball's chance.

Webstral

[waiting4something]

Here's a possibility: The Chinese don't invade with a military army. They simply impound the US due to lack of payment of the loans financing our national debt, and send an army of accountants, bankers, and auditors...

That is the worse thing that they could do. We wouldn't stand a chance.

[Webstral]

They also could hire a legion of tort lawyers. The Chinese have the money, and that's really all that matters to the law in the end. (Did I say that out loud again?)

Webstral

[Jason Weiser]

Why am I reminded of a Star Trek fanfiction where a bunch of Microsoft Lawyers attack a Borg cube and Picard tells Data "Turn off the the main screen Data, I don't want to watch. Not even the Borg deserve that."?

[Snake Eyes]

I have always tried to not let real-life geopolitics and logistics stand in the way of my Saturday matinee popcorn eating fun. I find I wind up enjoying far more marginally plausible movies that way.

[waiting4something]

They also could hire a legion of tort lawyers. The Chinese have the money, and that's really all that matters to the law in the end. (Did I say that out loud again?)

Webstral

Yeah, you did say that out loud, but lucky for you the rich don't care what normal dudes have to say, because our views don't matter.:D The more I think about this movie, the more I think I will not like it. Man I miss the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. They were the best thing for this country. You could wake up everyday and know who to hate. A classic good vs. evil. Clash of the Titans. Now days it's such a drag.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

The only way I can see Red China come over here like this is if they call our debts and we can't pay and we just roll over. Still, on the other hand, I cannot see that happening, I think we would throw everything at them if all other options look poor, sort of like a scorched Earth in return. Maybe that's how the old Star Trek episode, "The Omega Glory" got started. :) Seriously, you need to have some switches and relays just clicking correctly, at the right time and sequence for this to happen. Still I'm looking forward to it.

P.S. Maybe they really cannot call on our debts, we owe so much that as the old joke goes, "if Mr. Smith owes the bank $1 million, the bank owns Mr. Smith, but if Mr. Smith owes the bank $100 million then Mr. Smith really owns the bank.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Yeah, you did say that out loud, but lucky for you the rich don't care what normal dudes have to say, because our views don't matter.:D The more I think about this movie, the more I think I will not like it. Man I miss the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. They were the best thing for this country. You could wake up everyday and know who to hate. A classic good vs. evil. Clash of the Titans. Now days it's such a drag.

You too, huh? I have a nostalgia for the Cold War too. Atl east you know which side you were on and you had three basic sides, us, them or neutral. I'm a big fan of the cartoon, "The Tick," and if I was a superhero, my battle cry would be "I miss the 80's!" When I see shows like "Airwolf" and "Greatest American Hero," sometimes I tear goes down my eye and I think of the good, old days.

[Legbreaker]

"SPOON!"

:D

[waiting4something]

You too, huh? I have a nostalgia for the Cold War too. Atl east you know which side you were on and you had three basic sides, us, them or neutral. I'm a big fan of the cartoon, "The Tick," and if I was a superhero, my battle cry would be "I miss the 80's!" When I see shows like "Airwolf" and "Greatest American Hero," sometimes I tear goes down my eye and I think of the good, old days.

Yes, I wish I could have served in the military when the cold war was going on. I bet it was a totally different attitude or feel to it. The 80's had the best shows no doubt. Back then it was all about being bad ass and cool even if most people who tried still weren't.:D Then the 90's came washed it away with sensitivity, the real world, MTV without music videos, no real foreign enemies, girls in scarecrow pants, and a down sizing of our economy.

[Webstral]

I try to explain to my students how different things were when I was their age, and I don't just mean that we were stuck with early Atari and Pacman. They just don't get the idea that in the early 1980's, we still believed that the Reds could come rolling across the German border on any given day. The idea that we might not win that fight is beyond their comprehension. I remind them that the Russians maintain a nuclear arsenal large enough to wipe out the United States several times over, and I get blank looks. What do you mean, Mr. Leary? How could that be?

It was good when the Soviets were the boogeyman. They were good at it, and they were willing to play the part. The Chinese just aren't there yet, although time will tell. As for the Indians, they are hobbled by that democracy thing. They might go to war with Pakistan or China, but it's hard to see them at war with us. You just can't get bad guys like you used to. I guess it's off to a nostalgia review of Red Dawn and The Beast.

Webstral

[RN7]

How about the French as a boogeyman Webstral?

They think they are a superpower, their trying to dominate Europe through the European Union, and have an irrational dislike of America and the English speaking world which is more deep routed and probably far worse that the idealogically driven propaganda of the Russians in Soviet times. They also have military bases in South America and the Carribean, they own an island in the North Atlantic off New Foundland, and have a vocal fifth column north of the border in Quebec, and maybe a lot of sleeper agents in Louisanna as well.

[Webstral]

I'm just not a committed francophobe. The French are a pain because they are in it for themselves and, much more so than the Brits, have distinctly different ideas about what that means compared to us. I can't fault them for having their own ideas and their own agenda. Now if France were to conquer Western Europe, then a modern Napoleon would make a good villain.

Besides, I wish our women would learn something from French women.

Webstral

[Targan]

Besides, I wish our women would learn something from French women.

As long as it isn't learning not to shave their armpits.

[Webstral]

As long as it isn't learning not to shave their armpits.

Brr. That's not the image I wanted before going to bed.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

I've never understood the French irrational dislike of Americans. We were friends once, or at least were useful to them -- the Americans wouldn't have won the Revolution without French intervention. Maybe it's because we defaulted on our debts to the French after the American Revolution, and shortly thereafter took incredible advantage of the French with the Louisiana Purchase because of the French political situation at the time? A bit long to hold a grudge...

I do understand world animosity towards the US, though the French seem to carry it a bit further than necessary sometimes. The US is still an incredibly arrogant country (and as an American myself, it hurts to admit it), and we piss a lot of people off because we tend not to admit that other countries may be right about things too.

In a T2K context, a lot of the world may be pissed off at the US because about half the nukes that flew in the war were American -- particularly on the TDM. I imagine a lot of people might not be that happy to see Americans or Soviets show up anywhere.

[Webstral]

We tend to lord it over the French with the whole "We saved you twice" routine. We may have tipped the scales in WW1, but the French are the ones who took the casualties. Given that we beat the stuffing out of northern France while liberating it in WW2, it's not hard to see that they might feel that gratitude should be tempered somewhat.

Then there's that Vietnam thing. Having made a complete hash of things, the French then had to endure being ignored by us on the advisability of further involvement.

Webstral

[Gabe The Gun]

The most spoken French phrase throughout history? "We surrender" ha ha...............Gosh I cant stand the Frenchies.

[kato13]

The most spoken French phrase throughout history? "We surrender" ha ha...............Gosh I cant stand the Frenchies.

A bit of an over simplification on the surrender side. For the most part I don't think the French care what we think of them and therefore I pretty much don't care what they think of us.

[Marc]

I’ve always thought that one of the added values of this site is the number of nationalities represented by the posters. And I’m very sure that the myths and clichés in use in one country about another are not a very good point of reference. We have our own myths and clichés about North-Americans, too. This forum is chance, for me, to talk with people from the other side of the Atlantic and learn some of their point of views beyond my preconceived ideas. At any time, my own lack of knowledge about another country could create unrest after an unfortunate affirmation or an unsuitable question. Then I will accept a fair correction and I will expect that the others understand that my intention was not to offend.

About the Frenchs, Catalans have run away in front of them the same times that they have run away in front of us. I cannot count the times that both parts have been in war against each other since the Middle Age, with and without the implication of Spain. We’ve fought against them in Sicily, Greece, the Italian peninsula, Occitania, and inside our own frontiers. You must then add all the Spain-French conflicts. And we have been allies, too! Some of them volunteered in Spain to fight in our civil war, without proper preparation or equipment and against all the odds. And, talking about surrenders, most of the (current or past) European nations, once consolidated, have had their own “Red, Blue or Whatever Color Dawn”. I suppose that war inside your own borders change everything.

Sometimes, we, in Europe, tend to think that we have more information about North-America that North-Americans have about us. And if the first thought of somebody about Spain is “bulls”, he/she need more information :D.

Anyway clichés and simplifications are not good advisers. Hmmmmm... I hope to have passed my “English language skill roll”. Nothing more far away of my intentions to have sounded disrespectful.

[kato13]

Anyway clichés and simplifications are not good advisers.

Very true and this forum is a good way to see different perspectives.

[Webstral]

This is a good forum for hearing different points of view.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I've never understood the French irrational dislike of Americans. We were friends once, or at least were useful to them -- the Americans wouldn't have won the Revolution without French intervention. Maybe it's because we defaulted on our debts to the French after the American Revolution, and shortly thereafter took incredible advantage of the French with the Louisiana Purchase because of the French political situation at the time? A bit long to hold a grudge...

I think the reason is more modern, it directly involves DeGaulle and his beliefs at the time. Most of this I am writing from memory but it's worth doing some reading on the subject because it shows a side of European politics that doesn't get much attention and shows how modern France developed the way it did.

Two things in particular occured to make him think the way he did. The first was the US refusal to help the French, Israelis and British during the Suez Crisis, more specificially, refusal to help after those nations had committed themselves to the fight.
The second was when Kennedy toned down the US response to a Soviet invasion of Europe (it used to be that the US response to any invasion of Western Europe would be retaliation with nuclear weapons)
DeGaulle saw these as a weakening of US resolve and he believed that the US would not support its allies if the situation was not going to be advantageous to the US.

DeGaulle also lived during the time of the Marshall Plan and saw it as a way for the US to screw more money out of a war ravaged Europe and he believed that in light of all those things mentioned above plus the lack of Western support to help the French "re-colonize" Indochina, that France could only survive the future if she became independent of other nations.
He is responsible for French foreign policy and French nuclear energy and weapons.
He strongly believed that Europe (all of Europe, West & East but not including the Soviet Union) should be free of US and British influence and should be a third power standing between the US/UK and the Soviet Union and lobbied to make this so.
He had such an influence on French politicians that they maintained the same "DeGaullist" thinking for decades and this included a snobbish attitude towards the UK and outright distrust of the US.

[Targan]

Gosh I cant stand the Frenchies.

Wow. The internet is a place of sweeping statements but man, thats a goody. Are you saying that you can't stand an entire nation of people? How many French people have you ever got to know well?

Not that I'm the voice of wisdom by any means but that sort of sweeping generalisation is likely to offend at least one long time poster on this forum. There are a number of American public figures that I can't stand and American politics really p*sses me off sometimes but never would I say that "Gosh I can't stand Americans". I very much enjoy talking to Americans on this forum pretty much every day.

Perhaps you might like to have a look back through the posts of our regular French member here. From what I have read he seems like a great guy.

[RN7]

Jeez I wish I hadn't brought up France now, it was really only a tongue in cheek flip at French pretentions.

Do the French actually dislike Americans? Well I'm sure most don't and any anti-American rhetoric tends to come from French politicians and is directed towards American foreign policy. But some definitely have a chip on their shoulder over America and the English speaking world, and I don't know if it can be blamed on a cultural inferiority complex or just plain resentment.

My own simple theory is that many French believe that France and the French language and culture should have become the dominant force in western culture that the Anglo-phone world has become.

Throughout the 18th Century France was probably the most powerful country in the western world and France was building a world wide empire even before the French revolution. It all reached its apex with the rise of Napoleon. Every were outside of Europe France was defeated by Britain (the America's, Egypt, India), and Napoleon was finally beaten by a coalition led by a British general.

Up until the 19th Century French was undisputably the language of diplomacy and was the main language of most courts in Europe. That all changed in the 19th Century as the British Empire eclipsed France in international prestige and power, and English gradually began to replace French as the dominant international language. By the early-to-mid 20th Century America had taken over the lead from Britain, but English continued to become even more dominant.

The rise of Germany in Europe only made things worse for France, as the French where being challenged and dominated by a newly unified culture who France had dominated for centuries before in Europe, but France also had to be bailed out and rescued by the same culture which had surplanted its own on the international stage.

Persieved slights and heavy handed American foreign diplomacy, and British before it, haven't helped things, but basically I think its just down to resentment.

Just a theory.

[kato13]

Perhaps you might like to have a look back through the posts of our regular French member here. From what I have read he seems like a great guy.

Fully agree. Link to Mohoender's posts (http://forum.juhlin.com/search.php?do=finduser&u=15). Mo has been a valued contributor (even though like many members he is prone to long posting breaks) and regardless of what I sometimes sometimes may think about the French motivations or actions, I truly value his perspective, and if you forgive my presumption, his friendship.

[Webstral]

MY own simple theory is that many French believe that France and the French language and culture should have become the dominant force in western culture that the Anglo-phone world has become.


More than a little truth to this, I think. Reverse a few historical outcomes, and it could be anglophones complaining about the heavy-handedness of the French.

Webstral

[kato13]

The most spoken French phrase throughout history? "We surrender" ha ha...............Gosh I cant stand the Frenchies.

It has been explained to me that this is a direct quote from a TV show and was meant to be humorous and sarcastic. With this explanation (and apology) I hope we can all chalk up any confusion or potential bad blood to a simple misunderstanding.

A tip to all users old and new is that any thing meant to be said with a wink and a smile should be presented with a ;) ";)" and a :D ":D". Sarcasm and humor which are readily apparent in one's head do not always appear so obviously in text. Even my attempts at humor have sometimes been badly misunderstood by people who have known me on this forum for years, so it is not at all uncommon.

[headquarters]

The US-Euro relations have their ups and downs .And there always be people that just ned to grasp a simple answer and stereotype others to fit in their view of the world.I think the opinions vary greatly in each country however and that the bonds from close to a century of alliance (1917-2010) are not easily broken.

The French were very vocal and active in trying to oppose the Bush administrations wars and foreign policies due to their own interests and their public opinion . ( This is true for a lot of other Europeans too) .

The French tried to rally support for their cause and the Bush administration answered with their plays .Soon the diplomatic row spilled out into the streets and popular dislike of eachother started spreading .

War is a hot potato ,and the information age has made any black and white or right/wrong spin on any war impossible.Just to many sources to take perspectives from.Its more like grey and a little more charcoal now if you ask me.So naturally -feelings ran high on either side as national pride,principle,good intentions and several hundred billion dollars were at stake.

Euro/US relations were at a low because of this ,reminiscent of the anti US sentiments in the early 1970s due to the wars in South East Asia.

Since the war in 2003 relations have improved somewhat imho.The row that led to the discord has ended,and the politicians are making small amends by supporting US war effort in exchange for slight alterations in US policy here and there.French troops fight alongside the US in Afghanistan.They were in Gulf I too ( as were with the Syrians if you can believe it - thats right Syrian allies ).

Some may still be harbouring sentiment against the other still.And there will surely be more rows.And the politicians will us etheir spin doctors to portray Americans as shooting up everything and the French or Europeans as doing didley but being "fresh" towards Washington.

I still think the alliance will last a long time.

There will be a break up or an end at some point -every relationship has one .
History proves that it is inevitable .But thats a long ways into the future.