Mini-gun on a Humvee?

[Gabe The Gun]

Is the weopons mount on the Humvee able to accept the mini-gun out of the Small Arms Guide?

[TiggerCCW UK]

IIRC The minigun is listed in game as needing a NATO heavy tripod, which is what the pintle mount is equivalent to. I think :)

[copeab]

Is the weopons mount on the Humvee able to accept the mini-gun out of the Small Arms Guide?

There have been Myhbuster episodes were the minugun was fitted to a mount on a Suburban ;)

[Matt W]

http://gizmodo.com/290181/presidential-suv-machine-gun-pops-up-fills-the-air-with-lead

[pmulcahy11b]

It takes an hard-top or armored HMMWV to mount a weapon. The mount itself (assuming it doesn't have one of the newer turret-type mounts or a CROWS station) is sort of a universal mount -- what weapon you can put on it depends on that type of pintle is attached to the mount.

[Legbreaker]

The M134 was trialled in the Vietnam war mounted on an M113. Although extremely effective, it was quickly decided not to use it in this manner due to the extreme wastage of ammunition.
It was like firing 10 M60's all at the one target point - nothing left, but it only takes one bullet to do the job, not hundreds....

I'd say let your players mount it but don't tell them just how much ammo they're about to chew through with little real result. You might also want to pay attention to the feed system - if they don't have one, then they're likely to run into problems with snagged belts, stretched links (when the belts snag), the need to reload every second action, etc, etc, etc

Mounted on a tripod in a stationary role should eliminate most of the feed issues (provided they've had time to lay out a few thousand rounds and don't need to swing the weapon around too much), but they'll still be firing way more ammo than they need to to get the job done.

[sglancy12]

but they'll still be firing way more ammo than they need to to get the job done.

That really depends on the job, doesn't it?

It occurs to me that during the battle of Mogadishu, the Rangers in those Humvees roaring through the streets probably could have used miniguns to suppress all the snipers and gunmen blazing away at them from every window, doorway, rooftop, and alley way. Maybe the ranges were too close for the MK-19 and maybe the M2HB fired too slow... of course, with the M2HB "cover" stopped being an issue. That thing pretty much shoots through schools.

But still, the objective may be more about suppressing the enemy's fire than necessarily killing them. And yes, I realize that killing them sure as shit suppresses their fire. I'm just saying that when fighting guys whose total experience with miniguns may only be watching Terminator 2 and Predator, perhaps the weapon will be effective as suppressing them just because they are intimidated by the volume of fire and the sound it makes.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Frank Frey]

I'd like to elaborate a bit on what Scott has posted. I've actually been inside one of those M113 Minigun Tracks. This one was an M113 ACAV that had been upgunned with the M134 sitting where the 50 used to be and with a 50 cal on a pintle mount where the M60's used to be. The trak belonged to a combat MP unit that specialized in convoy escort. The trak commander told me that while they could put out the firepower, the ammo usage was tremendous.
I saw what he meant when I looked inside and saw nothing but ammo boxes stacked all over the place. The M113 was a rolling ammo bunker with none of the real protection.
That's the real downside of one of these mothers. I guarantee you that once the enemy becomes aware of what you got, they will throw everything at you from ATGM's to flaming monkey poo.

Out Here,
Frank Frey

[pmulcahy11b]

Maybe the ranges were too close for the MK-19 and maybe the M2HB fired too slow... of course, with the M2HB "cover" stopped being an issue. That thing pretty much shoots through schools.

That's something not really well-covered by the rules -- overpenetration. The last game I ever GMed, I did this to players taking shelter in a building made of cinder blocks with the spaces inside filled with concrete -- I managed to figure out that the KPV they were sheltering against penetrated the wall, a shelf on the wall, and a desk before it hit them (their players still took 4d6 damage each), but that slowed game play. Maybe I was being overrealistic or should had just made an educated guess...

Another thing not covered is overpenetrating a human body, something that becomes very important in CQB when there are civilians mixed in with the bad guys or if police are fighting bad guys in the same situation. I'll admit I have no good ideas about how to handle that one.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I hope your players have lots of ammunition and don't mind lots of recoil throwing their shots off target
http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=210191&page=3&ESRC=dod.nl

[Legbreaker]

I think that video adequately shows the problem with mounting the weapon on a flexible platform....
At least with a tracked vehicle such as the M113, you're barely going to see that effect. Of course the ammo wastage is still going to be a big issue...

[cavtroop]

Keep in mind, that second video (from military.com) is a FIFTY CAL. Holy crap! It's the GAU-19/A - here is wikipedias page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-19

Never knew we had a .50 gatling gun, wow!

The 7.62 doesn't have much recoil, but it will go through an INSANE amount of ammo. Can't imaging anyone in the Twilight world having access to that amount of ammo, realistically.

[Targan]

Keep in mind, that second video (from military.com) is a FIFTY CAL. Holy crap! It's the GAU-19/A - here is wikipedias page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-19

Never knew we had a .50 gatling gun, wow!

I don't think you had joined here back then but I raved about this weapon on this forum a couple of years ago. It was originally intended to be a chin gun for the V-22 Osprey and I never did figure out why the production versions of the Osprey didn't end up having this weapon fitted. Its awesome.

[cavtroop]

Its awesome.

That, good sir, may be the understatement of the year. What's not to love about a .50 gatling gun? My goodness! LOL

[Legbreaker]

What's not to love about a .50 gatling gun?
It's not a 25mm firing incendiaries? :firedevil

[pmulcahy11b]

That, good sir, may be the understatement of the year. What's not to love about a .50 gatling gun? My goodness! LOL

It's not a GAU-8...:gewehr:

[cavtroop]

It's not a GAU-8...:gewehr:

LOL, can you imagine mounting one of those on a Humvee? Flip it right over :p

[Legbreaker]

Hmmm, add in a few stabilisers such as you see on cranes and you've got yourself a concept. :p
Not sure if a Humvee could carry enough ammo though. :(

[pmulcahy11b]

LOL, can you imagine mounting one of those on a Humvee? Flip it right over :p

Yeah, but imagine the effects of that first (and only) burst! :sahmm:

[Legbreaker]

I think I've solved the limited magazine problem - trailer mount it with a flexible (and powered) link to the weapon.
Same basic concept as the old Crocodile flamethrower tank. :p

[Targan]

I think I've solved the limited magazine problem - trailer mount it with a flexible (and powered) link to the weapon.
Same basic concept as the old Crocodile flamethrower tank. :p

Pure genius. I love it.

Send photos when you've completed your proof-of-concept prototype!

[Legbreaker]

Oh no! Now I've started thinking!

25mm gatling with a flame thrower coaxial and trailer mounted ammo supply!

[TiggerCCW UK]

I think I've solved the limited magazine problem - trailer mount it with a flexible (and powered) link to the weapon.
Same basic concept as the old Crocodile flamethrower tank. :p

Funny you should mention that - I was looking at a Crocodile yesterday, at the Muckleburgh Collection.

[TiggerCCW UK]

It's not a GAU-8...:gewehr:

Thats the Avenger from the A-10 isn't it? Could it theoretically be given a ground mount?

[kato13]

Thats the Avenger from the A-10 isn't it? Could it theoretically be given a ground mount?

I considered trying to work out an Engineering/Urban Warfare vehicle using one until I saw the size.

http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/71/GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg

To me it seems like any type of aiming system would be very problematic. I have seen some anecdotal evidence of an attempt to mount one on an LCAC (Landing Craft Air Cushion) where it would have been used as a shore support weapon.

edit

wiki link to modified weapon GAU-13. It does suggest the possibility of mounting a four barreled version on some type of LAV.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Wow, I hadn't realised just how big it was :) Maybe a VW flinging catapult would be a better option.....

[Legbreaker]

Maybe a VW flinging catapult would be a better option.....
Now we're thinking! Pack it full of dynamite and you've got some serious firepower! :p

[pmulcahy11b]

Wow, I hadn't realised just how big it was :) Maybe a VW flinging catapult would be a better option.....

Antenna has rules for a cow-flinging trebuchet on his site; it shouldn't be too hard to power-up his version to be able to fling a VW.

[Legbreaker]

Antenna has rules for a cow-flinging trebuchet on his site; it shouldn't be too hard to power-up his version to be able to fling a VW.

Harder than you'd think. Just ask those lovely people over at Scrapheap Challenge, in particular The Barley Pickers.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Harder than you'd think. Just ask those lovely people over at Scrapheap Challenge, in particular The Barley Pickers.

Proper job!

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely brutalised itself!

:D

[boogiedowndonovan]

I guarantee you that once the enemy becomes aware of what you got, they will throw everything at you from ATGM's to flaming monkey poo.


hey if antenna's got stats for a cow flinging trebuchet, how about stats for flaming monkey poo?

[TiggerCCW UK]

@ Legbreaker - The Barley Pickers as NPC's? They could be mechanics in a village somewhere, spending all their time making homemade siege engines of death!

[Legbreaker]

Oh god no! :O

Can you imagine the carnage!?

:D

[TiggerCCW UK]

Two rival villages, fighting over scarce resources. One led by the Barley Pickers, the other led by Colonel Dick and the Brothers in Arms. It'd make the TDM look like a cracked window.....

[pmulcahy11b]

Two rival villages, fighting over scarce resources. One led by the Barley Pickers, the other led by Colonel Dick and the Brothers in Arms. It'd make the TDM look like a cracked window.....

Who are these people? I've never heard of them.

[TiggerCCW UK]

They're two of the most successful and entertaining teams from Scrapheap Challenge here in the UK. The Barley Pickers were a group of farmers and the Brothers in Arms were a team of brothers who were all (I think) in the army. Colonel Dick was the eldest and was either REME or Royal Engineers, can't remember which.

[Legbreaker]

And now, after years of suspense, we give you the Barley Pickers and their "Car Flinger"!
To give you an idea of scale, the A frame is made from telegraph poles, and the car they're throwing is a Mini.
It was built by four men in twenty hours.

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garfirth/2002_cf/004.jpg
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garfirth/2002_cf/005.jpg
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garfirth/2002_cf/carflinger_slo-mo_ws01.gif

The, umm, "safety chain" snagged and it couldn't handle the stresses...

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garfirth/2002_cf/010.jpg
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garfirth/2002_cf/011.jpg
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~garfirth/2002_cf/012.jpg

[Tegyrius]

Thats the Avenger from the A-10 isn't it? Could it theoretically be given a ground mount?

Theoretically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS).

:)

- C.

[Rockwolf66]

Well back on the origional topic...for now.

I've got the Osprey book on Special Operations Patrol Vehicles and inside they have a couple of images of a HMMWV packing a Minigun. Alededly they are used for counter ambush when running in a convoy. The guns themselves are geared to only 2,000~3,000 rpm so you arn't shooting 100 rounds a second but it still eats ammo like a hog. Apparently someone remembered that gunmen who will stay and fight against a M2HB will run from a minigun. They found that out after mounting miniguns on PBR in Vietnam. the only real issue with a minigun besideshow much ammo it uses is that it has limited penitration compared to a Ma Duce.

[kiltedguard]

Ok....I'm going to put this down....

Can they? Yes.

Do you need a "turtle back" with a ring turret? No

During the battle of Fallujah, I was watching CNN and eating breakfast. I was seeing some of the footage of the street fighting and I almost choked to death with I saw an M998 with armor plates welded to the side of it. A twin mini-gun mount on a pintle bolted to the center of the bed, crewed by two marines. One of shoveling the brass out the back of the truck as they backed out into the street...the gunner hosed (I use this term because the guns did dance around a bit) and then pull back into the alley where they had cover. I never saw anything like it again. There is plenty of room for tons of ammo, and depending how close your ammo supply is to get more...you'll be good. But monster excessive? Maybe.:D

I do see them mounted on 1141 or 1151 armored HMMWVs. You can pretty much fill the whole trunk with ammo. Intelligent design of your ammo supply system is a must. If you don't have the sleeve that guides the chains into the weapon...yer screwed.

[Panther Al]

Theoretically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS).

:)

- C.

*mmmm*


Tasty Avenger.

I still say putting one of those on a M1 Chassis in the AD role will make about every pilot ever born change his or her drawers the moment they hear about it.

[rcaf_777]

There is also

Counter Rocket, Artillery, and Mortar, abbreviated C-RAM or Counter-RAM, is a system used to detect and/or destroy incoming artillery, rockets and mortar rounds in the air before they hit their ground targets, or simply provide early warning.

C-RAM is effectively a land version of weapons such as the Phalanx CIWS radar controlled rapid-fire gun for close in protection of vessels from missiles.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM

I know it was developed in 2005, but give the age of Phalanx CIWS I think something could seen in TW 2000 timeline

I think you could see the GAU-8/A Avenger mounted on a make shift frame of some short durring TW 2000, perhaps a Abrams or Bradley?

[kato13]

I think you could see the GAU-8/A Avenger mounted on a make shift frame of some short durring TW 2000, perhaps a Abrams or Bradley?

The GAU-8 is Huge

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/83/6205c5aa914c48d8844234d425600cc1/l.jpg

As far as I know the only land mobile concept that was ever conceived (attempted?) was a system consisting of 2 CONEX containers (one gun one ammo) placed on a LCAC. It was to be used to blast away at shore defenses during an amphibious assault.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

There was a podded 3-barreled version tested experimentally on the USAF's failed "A-16" program when they made one of their seemingly endless attempts to dispose of the A-10. It failed; the pod vibrated the aircraft so severely it caused the radar to go into reset mode.

[Panther Al]

And, to make things really interesting, there is a photo floating about of a M60 (M48?) mocked up with the GAU-8 as a possible contender during the Sgt. York trials.

[kato13]

And, to make things really interesting, there is a photo floating about of a M60 (M48?) mocked up with the GAU-8 as a possible contender during the Sgt. York trials.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8350/gau8divadij7.jpg

This does look like a shorter version of the GAU8.

[Panther Al]

Thats the one!

[Adm.Lee]

I can remember being told by someone whose brother was in a National Guard ADA unit, that it needed several men to keep the M741 from vibrating too badly when firing.

Relative to a HMMWV, that seems significant to me.

[James Langham]

It's a real shame in my article on lasers I said the M60 doesn't generate enough power for a PRACTICAL laser, that would have been an ideal pic.

[rcaf_777]

The GAU-8 is Huge

Well going off the Specs the total system lenght is 19 ft 10.5 in and the hull lenght of the M1 Abrams is 26.02 ft, removing the Ammo drum and mounting it on seperate trailer would furter reduce the lenght. I think is possible to mount the gun on the tank and run a ammo feed through the turret and out the trailer. The turret would never rotate agian, but you moving the gun by moving the hull. This of course would require alot of work from a bunch of speicalists, but I can see this being used in Europe where damage A-10 and M1's could matted together. It could also happen in states using Hulls and GAU-8/A Avenger parts after the nuclear exchanges, I could espeically see this as the case in states where GE would be envoled in making both weapons systems and would have techincal knowledge.

[Panther Al]

Well going off the Specs the total system lenght is 19 ft 10.5 in and the hull lenght of the M1 Abrams is 26.02 ft, removing the Ammo drum and mounting it on seperate trailer would furter reduce the lenght. I think is possible to mount the gun on the tank and run a ammo feed through the turret and out the trailer. The turret would never rotate agian, but you moving the gun by moving the hull. This of course would require alot of work from a bunch of speicalists, but I can see this being used in Europe where damage A-10 and M1's could matted together. It could also happen in states using Hulls and GAU-8/A Avenger parts after the nuclear exchanges, I could espeically see this as the case in states where GE would be envoled in making both weapons systems and would have techincal knowledge.

Yes and no...

In a slapdash system, made up of parts left over from ruined machines? Agreed 100%. However, if the time was taken to build brand new, a lot of those issues can be addressed. A lot of the length isn't fixed: A lot of that length is in the ammo feed and storage. The drum alone is 72" long and 36" in diameter, and the barrel is 90.5". So, the barrel length isn't the issue: its the drum. Good news is that its fed via a flexible chute, so it can be redirected. Turn the drum sidewise, place it in the bustle of the Abrams, then mount the gun where the 120 is - its half the length of the cannon after all, and bobs your uncle. The only question is where to stick the 2 77hp electric motors, but I can think of a couple places where they can be tucked.

[Targan]

It's a real shame in my article on lasers I said the M60 doesn't generate enough power for a PRACTICAL laser, that would have been an ideal pic.

Any amount of power will do, if you're charging up ultra-capacitors. The smaller the generator the longer the charge time, but the generators aren't the be-all-and-end-all. A few years ago as a spin-off of research I was doing for my T2K campaign I assembled quite a bit of information about military-grade electricity generation and ultra-capacitor technology. I've put most of it into deep storage but there are afew articles I've kept on my hard drive, mostly associated with the HEMTT-A3 hybrid military cargo vehicles they built mid-last decade. I'll include what I can as attachments but unfortunately some of the more technical pams are too big for this forum's attachment limit. The ones I can upload are worth a look though.

[James Langham]

Thanks Targan, very useful bits. It comes down however to how quickly you can fire again, I'm not sure the M60 would ever get enough speed of recharge to make it worthwhile. Slow recharge (or low output) works OK for EOD purposes but I can't see an M60 hull used for that.

Any amount of power will do, if you're charging up ultra-capacitors. The smaller the generator the longer the charge time, but the generators aren't the be-all-and-end-all. A few years ago as a spin-off of research I was doing for my T2K campaign I assembled quite a bit of information about military-grade electricity generation and ultra-capacitor technology. I've put most of it into deep storage but there are afew articles I've kept on my hard drive, mostly associated with the HEMTT-A3 hybrid military cargo vehicles they built mid-last decade. I'll include what I can as attachments but unfortunately some of the more technical pams are too big for this forum's attachment limit. The ones I can upload are worth a look though.

[Panther Al]

OK, went through my collection of TM's and skads of photos, to see what would it take to put a GAU8 in an Abrams Turret.

Its not as bad as you think. Not a field thing by any means, it would require a 40 level Depot at best, or a factory rework at worst.

One thing that comes up first is that you don't need a loader: Thats a lot of room you can use for other things. The Gun itself, isn't larger than the breech and recoil system of the M256 - in fact its a lot smaller. So mounting a GAU8 Breach and barrel system in the same spot is easy as cake. Its the ammo and motors that is the next issue. Not a problem. In the spot in front of where the loader was, you can place one motor, if not both - and if thats the case, there is plenty of empty room where the gunnery computer is: even if you don't remove it, there is more room than you'd thing.

Remember, you don't have the co-ax ammo bin, nor any of the equipment in the turret cheeks.

Assuming you leave the gunner where he is, you can easily place two of the 72" by 36" ammo drums in the turret. One in the bustle, and one in the loaders spot. Gives you a dual feel option if you like, or just double the ammo load.

Just what I see.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The July/August 1996 Issue of ARMOR magazine has an extensive article on proposed (read: Fanciful) M1 ADA variants. Here are the '96 issues:

http://www.benning.army.mil/Armor/ArmorMagazine/content/1996.html