OT - Conspiracy Theories.... I love the imagination!

[Cdnwolf]

US Orders Blackout Over North Korean Torpedoing Of Gulf Of Mexico Oil Rig

A grim report circulating in the Kremlin today written by Russia’s Northern Fleet is reporting that the United States has ordered a complete media blackout over North Korea’s torpedoing of the giant Deepwater Horizon oil platform owned by the World’s largest offshore drilling contractor Transocean that was built and financed by South Korea’s Hyundai Heavy Industries Co. Ltd., that has caused great loss of life, untold billions in economic damage to the South Korean economy, and an environmental catastrophe to the United States.

Most important to understand about this latest attack by North Korea against its South Korean enemy is that under the existing “laws of war” it was a permissible action as they remain in a state of war against each other due to South Korea’s refusal to sign the 1953 Armistice ending the Korean War.

To the attack itself, these reports continue, the North Korean “cargo vessel” Dai Hong Dan believed to be staffed by 17th Sniper Corps “suicide” troops left Cuba’s Empresa Terminales Mambisas de La Habana (Port of Havana) on April 18th whereupon it “severely deviated” from its intended course for Venezuela’s Puerto Cabello bringing it to within 209 kilometers (130 miles) of the Deepwater Horizon oil platform which was located 80 kilometers (50 miles) off the coast of the US State of Louisiana where it launched an SSC Sang-o Class Mini Submarine (Yugo class) estimated to have an operational range of 321 kilometers (200 miles).

On the night of April 20th the North Korean Mini Submarine manned by these “suicidal” 17th Sniper Corps soldiers attacked the Deepwater Horizon with what are believed to be 2 incendiary torpedoes causing a massive explosion and resulting in 11 workers on this giant oil rig being killed outright. Barely 48 hours later, on April 22nd , this North Korean Mini Submarine committed its final atrocity by exploding itself directly beneath the Deepwater Horizon causing this $1 Billion oil rig to sink beneath the seas and marking 2010’s celebration of Earth Day with one of the largest environmental catastrophes our World has ever seen.

To the reason for North Korea attacking the Deepwater Horizon, these reports say, was to present US President Obama with an “impossible dilemma” prior to the opening of the United Nations Review Conference of the Parties to the Treat on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) set to begin May 3rd in New York.

This “impossible dilemma” facing Obama is indeed real as the decision he is faced with is either to allow the continuation of this massive oil leak catastrophe to continue for months, or immediately stop it by the only known and proven means possible, the detonation of a thermonuclear device.

Russian Navy atomic experts in these reports state that should Obama choose the “nuclear option” the most viable weapon at his disposal is the United States B83 (Mk-83) strategic thermonuclear bomb having a variable yield (Low Kiloton Range to 1,200 Kilotons) which with its 12 foot length and 18 inch diameter, and weighing just over 2,400 pounds, is readily able to be deployed and detonated by a remote controlled mini-sub.

Should Obama choose the “nuclear option” it appears that he would be supported by the International Court of Justice who on July 8, 1996 issued an advisory opinion on the use of nuclear weapons stating that they could not conclude definitively on these weapons use in “extreme circumstances” or “self defense”.

On the other hand, if Obama chooses the “nuclear option” it would leave the UN’s nuclear conference in shambles with every Nation in the World having oil rigs off their coasts demanding an equal right to atomic weapons to protect their environment from catastrophes too, including Iran.

To whatever decision Obama makes it remains a fact that with each passing hour this environmental catastrophe grows worse. And even though Obama has ordered military SWAT teams to protect other oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico from any further attack, and further ordered that all drilling in the Gulf of Mexico be immediately stopped, this massive oil spill has already reached the shores of America and with high waves and more bad weather forecast the likelihood of it being stopped from destroying thousands of miles of US coastland and wildlife appears unstoppable.

And not just to the environmental catastrophe that is unfolding the only devastation to be wrecked upon the United States and South Korea by this North Korean attack as the economic liabilities associated with this disaster are estimated by these Russian reports to be between $500 Billion to $1.5 Trillion, and which only a declaration of this disaster being an “act of war” would free some the World’s largest corporations from bankruptcy.

Important to note too in all of these events was that this was the second attack by North Korea on its South Korean enemy, and US ally, in a month as we had reported on in our March 28th report titled “Obama Orders ‘Immediate Stand-down’ After Deadly North Korean Attack” and which to date neither the Americans or South Korea have retaliated for and giving one senior North Korean party leader the courage to openly state that the North Korean military took “gratifying revenge” on South Korea.

And for those believing that things couldn’t get worse, they couldn’t be more mistaken as new reports coming from Japanese military sources are stating that North Korea is preparing for new launches of its 1,300 kilometer (807 miles) intermediate range ballistic “Rodong” missile which Russian Space Forces experts state is able to “deploy and detonate” an atomic electromagnetic pulse (EMP) device, and which if detonated high in the atmosphere could effectively destroy the American economy for years, if not decades, to come?

[pmulcahy11b]

Is that a joke you made up for us on this forum, or is there some nut out there who actually believes this?

[weswood]

Sounds far fetched to me, but I was wondering why I kept hearing Obama sent SWAT teams for an oil spill.

[pmulcahy11b]

Sounds far fetched to me, but I was wondering why I kept hearing Obama sent SWAT teams for an oil spill.

Hopefully, he sent those SWAT teams to arrest the idiots responsible for skimping on maintenance of the drilling equipment.

[Cdnwolf]

It was something someone posted on Keith's forum and they got it from one of the conspiracy's website.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yes it sounds way out there. Either way the North Koreans know for the fact that US response to anything will be little to next to nothing. They understand that even if we had President who had a pair, their hands are effectively tied thanks to the previous administration.

Oh well, some day someone in Washington will grow a brain and have sense to use it.

[headquarters]

Sorry to hear about the recent troubles US T2Kers !

You have my sympathy .

If I worked in BP I would definently make this rumour up..save billions and billions by blaming the boogey man.

As for responding to North Korea with force..You can strike Seoul of the map immideatly if the North Koreans get jittery.

Its in the sights of something like 10 000 arty and missile launcher pieces..

Anyways - all the best to you over the "pond" - I hope it works out as best it can.

[pmulcahy11b]

Oh well, some day someone in Washington will grow a brain and have sense to use it.

Don't hold your breath waiting! I often say that the Republicans have no brains and the Democrats have no balls.

[Canadian Army]

I was watching 60 minutes, I think it was two weeks ago or maybe one week; but, they were talking to Maajid Nawaz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz); a former member of the Muslim extremist group Hizb ut-Tahrir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir). He was in Pakistan talking to group of students about Islamist extremism. During the discussion; which was used as part of the 60 minutes interview, one of the students stated he believe that Al-Qaeda was created by the CIA and was then ordered to bomb the World Trade Centers, in order for the US to justify an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. But the weird thing happen when Lesley Stahl; who was doing the interview; ask who else thought this way over half the room put their hands up.

[Webstral]

While I am highly skeptical that the North Korean conspiracy has anything to it, I really like the creativity. Truth is often stranger than fiction, so it's worthwhile for the conspiracy folks to keep working.

Does anybody know why a nuke would be an option for shutting off the flow of oil? Is the intense heat supposed to turn enough of the sea floor at the point of the leak into glass to create a seal over the leak? Is the shockwave of the detonation (which will be considerable, given the ability of water to transmit energy) supposed to collapse the walls around the leak, thereby stoppering it? I'm terribly interested to know the details.

If we suppose that a nuke is the best option for sealing the leak, and if we believe that the use of a nuke for this purpose presents the US with an impossible diplomaic situation (all nations potentially faced with similar problems, including Iran, deserve to have nukes), perhaps the best solution is alos diplomatic. We ask another nuclear power to sell us a nuke for the express purpose of sealing the breach. Perhaps the nuke is deployed under the full observation of the UN agency responsible for nukes, thereby creating a precedent that a nation in need of a nuke for this kind of purpose can go to a nuclear power to get the nuke it needs and that the use of the nuke must conform to international standards. This would take the steam out of any claims by Iran that it should have its own nukes for the purpose of responding to similar crises off the Iranian coast.

Webstral

[TiggerCCW UK]

Would there not be a big danger of tidal waves, sub sea earthquakes etc from using a nuke in this manner? Potentially, could the cure be a lot worse than the problem is to start with?

[pmulcahy11b]

Does anybody know why a nuke would be an option for shutting off the flow of oil?

The environmental fallout from the spill is already bad enough -- fishermen especially may be having a really tough time of making a living for the next decade. The Gulf is also already warming with time -- if you go down to Padre Island, for example, and get into the water, it feels as warm as bath water. I wouldn't even want to think about the environmental damage an underwater nuke would cause. In my mind, that's not an option anyone should consider. Nuclear weapons were useful only once in history, to stop the need for an invasion of Japan that would have cost the lives of millions. Since then, they've been nothing but an expensive curse, and a Damocles sword hanging over the world's heads. There's no constructive use for nuclear weapons anymore, regardless of how you use them.

[Fusilier]

Bleh... I cringe every time I read or hear something like this. We've got a teacher working with us who spouts conspiracy crap ALL of the time here at work. Its annoying as hell.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

The environmental fallout from the spill is already bad enough -- fishermen especially may be having a really tough time of making a living for the next decade. The Gulf is also already warming with time -- if you go down to Padre Island, for example, and get into the water, it feels as warm as bath water. I wouldn't even want to think about the environmental damage an underwater nuke would cause. In my mind, that's not an option anyone should consider. Nuclear weapons were useful only once in history, to stop the need for an invasion of Japan that would have cost the lives of millions. Since then, they've been nothing but an expensive curse, and a Damocles sword hanging over the world's heads. There's no constructive use for nuclear weapons anymore, regardless of how you use them.

There has been one thing that I can think of that is a constructive use, well sorta........They have inspired some really cool post apocalyptic role playing games like Twilight 2000, and Aftermath......about the only good thing i can think of right now.

[Mahatatain]

Wonderful material for a RPG.....

[Matt W]

Hopefully, he sent those SWAT teams to arrest the idiots responsible for skimping on maintenance of the drilling equipment.

Wrong sort of SWAT team. It's these guys

http://www.swat-ab.ca/

[waiting4something]

Wrong sort of SWAT team. It's these guys

http://www.swat-ab.ca/

But, these SWAT guys don't have guns. WTF!:confused: On the side note if I ever became a criminal I hope they call these guys instead of the other S.W.A.T. guys.:p

[waiting4something]

I love conspiracy stuff. I mean I think most of it is blow out of proportion, but some stuff I find very believable like the JFK assassination thing. One that seemed very crazy to me was the one where people said the U.S. government constructed 911 and actual blew up the towers with pre-layed explosives. I don't really buy that, but some do. I think Waco had more bs then we will ever know about. The bombing of the Federal building by Tim McVeigh was a shady one too. Yes, I think he did it, but the details are very brief and he was put to death (by U.S. court standards) faster then a snow ball melting in hell. They are fun to discuss. You just have know when to seperate possibilities and reason. I love em they give us something to think about.

[pmulcahy11b]

I love conspiracy stuff. I mean I think most of it is blow out of proportion, but some stuff I find very believable like the JFK assassination thing. One that seemed very crazy to me was the one where people said the U.S. government constructed 911 and actual blew up the towers with pre-layed explosives. I don't really buy that, but some do. I think Waco had more bs then we will ever know about. The bombing of the Federal building by Tim McVeigh was a shady one too. Yes, I think he did it, but the details are very brief and he was put to death (by U.S. court standards) faster then a snow ball melting in hell. They are fun to discuss. You just have know when to seperate possibilities and reason. I love em they give us something to think about.

I'll agree with you on JFK's assassination -- unfortunately we may not know the truth until the Warren Commission report is unsealed in 2014 -- and I'm willing to bet we still won't know the whole truth then. I mean, why would they have ordered the Warren Commission report sealed for 50 years if the government wasn't involved in the assassination, even if in an indirect way? They wanted to make sure everyone involved in JFK's assassination had a chance to die of old age first.

911 was an obvious terrorist attack -- the only thing our government is guilty of in 911 is negligence -- the warning signs were there in time to stop Al-Qaida.

Waco -- Koresh burned down his own damned building. It was a mass murder-suicide. The only ones I feel sorry for there are the kids.

Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols pretty much came up with that plot themselves, but they had a lot of help from others in the militia movement that have yet to be disclosed. The US has a a bigger home-grown terrorist movement than is generally acknowledged, and that problem is just growing, especially since Obama's election. There are a lot of angry racists in this country who are pissed off because a black man is in the White House, and there are a lot more people in this country who are such ideologues that they can't bring themselves to admit that the Bush Administration is responsible for most of the really big problems the US is facing right now.

[Targan]

I'll agree with you on JFK's assassination -- unfortunately we may not know the truth until the Warren Commission report is unsealed in 2014 -- and I'm willing to bet we still won't know the whole truth then. I mean, why would they have ordered the Warren Commission report sealed for 50 years if the government wasn't involved in the assassination, even if in an indirect way? They wanted to make sure everyone involved in JFK's assassination had a chance to die of old age first.

911 was an obvious terrorist attack -- the only thing our government is guilty of in 911 is negligence -- the warning signs were there in time to stop Al-Qaida.

Waco -- Koresh burned down his own damned building. It was a mass murder-suicide. The only ones I feel sorry for there are the kids.

Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols pretty much came up with that plot themselves, but they had a lot of help from others in the militia movement that have yet to be disclosed. The US has a a bigger home-grown terrorist movement than is generally acknowledged, and that problem is just growing, especially since Obama's election. There are a lot of angry racists in this country who are pissed off because a black man is in the White House, and there are a lot more people in this country who are such ideologues that they can't bring themselves to admit that the Bush Administration is responsible for most of the really big problems the US is facing right now.

You know Paul for a self described mentally ill person you regularly say a great many very sensible things.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Waco -- Koresh burned down his own damned building. It was a mass murder-suicide. The only ones I feel sorry for there are the kids.

There are a lot of opinions about Waco even now that we are nearly two decades since the event. I for one would be willing to dispute that Koresh burnt down the building considering that the fire started exactly at the place where BATF agents had thrown smoke and tear gas grenades.
And while we're talking about conspiracies, whatever happened to the .50cal machineguns the BATF alleged the Branch Davidians possessed and what happened to the door the BATF alleged had .50cal bullet holes in it (which would actually prove their claims that the group had the .50's but they seem to have somehow lost this vital piece of evidence) where the Branch Davidians allegedly shot at the BATF.

The BATF alleged a lot of things about that siege and still haven't mananged to prove many of them with any real evidence.

[waiting4something]

There are a lot of opinions about Waco even now that we are nearly two decades since the event. I for one would be willing to dispute that Koresh burnt down the building considering that the fire started exactly at the place where BATF agents had thrown smoke and tear gas grenades.
And while we're talking about conspiracies, whatever happened to the .50cal machineguns the BATF alleged the Branch Davidians possessed and what happened to the door the BATF alleged had .50cal bullet holes in it (which would actually prove their claims that the group had the .50's but they seem to have somehow lost this vital piece of evidence) where the Branch Davidians allegedly shot at the BATF.

The BATF alleged a lot of things about that siege and still haven't mananged to prove many of them with any real evidence.

I think the whole Waco thing was bad info from the get go and they just kept rolling with it even though they knew they screwed the pooch. Who was this great informer and is there any proof Super Dave was banging all the women and girls there? I find it very hard to believe any man would just be like go ahead bang my daughter and wife neo-Jesus. The informer was a ex-member who got kicked out of the group on bad terms- a gunfight between DK.:p The BATF might have even shot some of their guys. The Feds had the place bugged so well they knew where people where at all times. A second grader could have done as well when the end came.

[pmulcahy11b]

You know Paul for a self described mentally ill person you regularly say a great many very sensible things.

I have my lucid moments.

[pmulcahy11b]

There are a lot of opinions about Waco even now that we are nearly two decades since the event. I for one would be willing to dispute that Koresh burnt down the building considering that the fire started exactly at the place where BATF agents had thrown smoke and tear gas grenades.

IR films taken from aircraft throughout the siege show that the final fires started at almost the same time in several areas of the complex, and the place where the tear gas canisters were ejected was the smallest one.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the whole Waco thing was bad info from the get go and they just kept rolling with it even though they knew they screwed the pooch. Who was this great informer and is there any proof Super Dave was banging all the women and girls there? I find it very hard to believe any man would just be like go ahead bang my daughter and wife neo-Jesus. The informer was a ex-member who got kicked out of the group on bad terms- a gunfight between DK.:p The BATF might have even shot some of their guys. The Feds had the place bugged so well they knew where people where at all times. A second grader could have done as well when the end came.

That's sort of thing has happened with cults and national leaders throughout history, and will happen over and over again, because mankind's dark side will never be eliminated. Look at the crap Caligula pulled -- he raped his senators' wives' in front of them, and then forced them to listen as he critiqued the wives' performance in public. Sometimes, you can do a lot with fear, intimidation, brainwashing, and/or indoctrination.

The remains of Koresh's weapons after the fire were collected up and destroyed. There wasn't much left -- the fire burned that hot. There were no M-2HBs as alleged, but there were a couple of Barretts.

As for the BATF's performance at Waco -- it was, as we said in the Army, f**ked up by the numbers. I'll agree with you on that one. I can only hope that whoever planned that initial raid got sent to jail. That's not even the kind of raid you perform in the daytime, and you definitely don't do it on live TV that Koresh's people were probably watching. I doubt the raid-masters got in any trouble, though.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

I'll agree with you on JFK's assassination -- unfortunately we may not know the truth until the Warren Commission report is unsealed in 2014 -- and I'm willing to bet we still won't know the whole truth then. I mean, why would they have ordered the Warren Commission report sealed for 50 years if the government wasn't involved in the assassination, even if in an indirect way? They wanted to make sure everyone involved in JFK's assassination had a chance to die of old age first.

911 was an obvious terrorist attack -- the only thing our government is guilty of in 911 is negligence -- the warning signs were there in time to stop Al-Qaida.

Waco -- Koresh burned down his own damned building. It was a mass murder-suicide. The only ones I feel sorry for there are the kids.

Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols pretty much came up with that plot themselves, but they had a lot of help from others in the militia movement that have yet to be disclosed. The US has a a bigger home-grown terrorist movement than is generally acknowledged, and that problem is just growing, especially since Obama's election. There are a lot of angry racists in this country who are pissed off because a black man is in the White House, and there are a lot more people in this country who are such ideologues that they can't bring themselves to admit that the Bush Administration is responsible for most of the really big problems the US is facing right now.

Actually its the mostly liberal policies (democrat and republican liberals) and democrats in Bushes last two years that did the damage (starting during Clinton with the loans for housing to people who could not afford them aka pressure on the banks to make them which in turn caused the housing bubble and the start of this major mess). The Drunken sailor like spending, which has in the first two years of the Obamma and democrat controlled administration multiplied it to an even more dangerous levels. You can blame Bush all ya want, but the current admin is just doing the same thing but even on a worse scale.....much worse. One cannot spend ones way out of debt. The liberal spineless republicans are to blame also for letting this happen. I tried to vote those out that I could, but that back then that allowed the democrats to take over and even make things way worse. Id rather have the debt and deficit at the end of the bush/republican controlled house then where we are now. (remember that in the last year or two the spending really went nuts, but the democrats were in control of the house which is the real spender, not the president. Bush was a spineless twit and tried to be nice to the democrat controlled House, and in turn let them spend way to much which gave us a bigger deficit, but now I sure hope that the next elections put some more conservatives with balls in there to balance the power, or even for a few years gain control. The spending even more so now cannot carry on as it has and is. As far as ideologues there are just as many that cant seem to realize that the problem is that the ones now in charge and mucking things up, are making Bush's screw ups seem reasonable. Every one thinks the republican in general are the ones that are in the back pockets of the bankers, seems to be just as many democrats there right now, sure they are putting on a good show, bash the rich and all..... but look really hard and see how many former Goldman sachs are in the Obamma administration. Bankers and politicians have been bed fellows since the begging of the system. For the democrats to claim they are for the average man is a bunch of bull and very hypocritical.

I'm tired of being called a racist when I'm not. Im tried of the hypocrisy from the Left, and damned well of shamed of those that on the right that do it as well, its not exclusive to one party.

I'm tired of the liberal socialist policies that every one things is so great, yah they would be but I like others are tired of paying for it. Right now over a third of what I earn is gone. Half of that goes to taxes, half of that goes into the other things like social security and such which I will likely never see any benefit from my contributions, nor do I expect too (and which just goes into the general fund anyway and is misspent like all the other money is). I'm gonna work till i die. or if i get lucky the economy will turn around and some of my investments will pay off and I will have a little nest egg to. I and my family are in that class of people that earns just enough not to get any help and is barely making it.
This country needs to man up and demand that the government get in order and quit spending money like its endless, some have already started doing that but the democrats and the generally liberal press have done nothing but make fun of them and demonize them as some sort of hate mongering racists. When its the democrats and the complacent press that have been the racists (noting that the tea party is white racist, or in general implying that whites in general are racists, when they are not) and demonizing or belittling them and stirring up rumors of such (which is hate mongering in its finest).

Sorry for the rant, Ill probably get banned or at least givin a good talking too. But why is it when ever some one from the generally left point a view says something that they are allowed to get away with it and are generally given kudos by others. But if some one from the right says some thing particularly in defense or to perhaps even set things in perspective they are demonized made fun of or even banned or threatened with it. (not saying this is going to happen or is epidemic here, though it has a touch of it, one of the best boards for the fairness of it all if I do say so myself.) But I have noticed a trend on several of the boards that I belong to.

With that said, since this board is supposed to be politically neutral, it would be much appreciated if the comments from the left were left at the door so to say and same with the right. It does not seem fair for one to be overlooked or winked at and the other is not. Let all remember this the next time we type.

If one does not like to hear the others political point of view, don't give yours, and you will get none in return.

Me personally I do not care about the discussion at all, but I do care that in a neutral environment, generally this board that one side is more tolerated then the other.

Dang, started ranting again didn't I, Ill let it go. "takes a deep breath and realizes I am late for work, DOh."

Later all take care and have a great day :D

[Targan]

..... Ok. Its funny, if I started talking about the things that p*ss me off in Australian politics it would probably be largely ignored by most readers here as being irrelevant to them. Then again non-Americans tend to get a very poor reaction when they talk about American politics so I won't do that either.

Interesting that there is a perception that left-leaning political comments on this forum are overlooked for criticism while right-leaning ones are not. I hadn't noticed myself, but perhaps that is because I'm left-leaning ;)

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

..... Ok. Its funny, if I started talking about the things that p*ss me off in Australian politics it would probably be largely ignored by most readers here as being irrelevant to them. Then again non-Americans tend to get a very poor reaction when they talk about American politics so I won't do that either.

Interesting that there is a perception that left-leaning political comments on this forum are overlooked for criticism while right-leaning ones are not. I hadn't noticed myself, but perhaps that is because I'm left-leaning ;)

Funny how that works ;)

Heck on other forums where its really....um shall we say spirited even the people who are claiming to be on the right even get commented on by me. When I was young and idealistic I was on the left. Now that I am getting old and wise I am more on the right and realistic. (as the saying goes).

Thanks for letting me vent you guys are cool for lefties ;) !

Back on topic, this oil spill is starting to look more like the Kennedy assassination all the time, i doubt we will ever know the truth. Every thing form the beginning of it was so FUBAR from the point of the BP and the Government. Heck I am wondering if they were not in it together to get the off shore drilling shut off so they could charge more for what other oil they dill (BP) and they also please the greenies and liberals (Obammas admin). Not trying to be a conspiracy nut, just a possible scenario.

I used to hang with some real nutty types, got away from them when I started to pay attention to what they were talking about. The conspiracy crowds that are out there are some of the weirdest yet..... guess its just part of the beginning of the end or something..... think about it, all the disasters, Crisis', political shenanigans, terrorism, people going crazy as in batshit doing weird stuff to them selves and others, the human atrocities in Africa, Asia, and the middle east. The Saber rattling of Governments, extremist trying to get nukes.....Wars, Famine, Pestilence...... starting to sound like maybe the bible may have been a warning. Or perhaps that it was just letting us know that history repeats itself and that this is our way of life.

Kinda like a SHTF thing that keeps repeating it self every so often in this world just to start all over again, or adapt to it.

Im just glad to be in Nebraska. (never thought you would hear anyone say that) :P Though if Yellowstone caldera goes that will suck.

[Mohoender]

..... Ok. Its funny, if I started talking about the things that p*ss me off in Australian politics it would probably be largely ignored by most readers here as being irrelevant to them. Then again non-Americans tend to get a very poor reaction when they talk about American politics so I won't do that either.

Interesting that there is a perception that left-leaning political comments on this forum are overlooked for criticism while right-leaning ones are not. I hadn't noticed myself, but perhaps that is because I'm left-leaning ;)

I'll have to disagree with you Targ (even if that's reflects only me). I currently think that what happens everywhere in the "western world" (and outside of it) is relevant to all of us. Of course, I don't know much about Australian Politics (actually nothing) but I' convinced that it would have plenty of things in common with what there is to say about French, US or Greek politics.

I still have friends all over and I'm constantly surprised because we often react on very similar things. Problems being equally similar.

I find what currently happen in Greece to be relevant to me (especially as I think that it might be the first European country to enter a revolution). I support the Icelandic when they refused to pay the bill to UK. I'm very concerned about what currently happens in the south of US and it will affect us all. I didn't forget Haiti even as it went off fashion in the Medias...

Right now, I think it's the best time to be concerned.

[Mohoender]

Actually its the mostly liberal policies (democrat and republican liberals) and democrats in Bushes last two years that did the damage (starting during Clinton with the loans for housing to people who could not afford them aka pressure on the banks to make them which in turn caused the housing bubble and the start of this major mess).

Later all take care and have a great day :D

As for Targ I have to disagree. And if you are right there still might be hope but I doubt it. Currently, I have not seen anywhere in the world politicians doing their jobs whatever their political colors. Strangely, they are all good at putting the burden on country's citizens who often fall to that old trap. "I'm telling ya, that's the other side who did wrong".

Of course, I can't say for other countries but I base my judgement on real life experience. The first date back to the mid-1990's. I was invited at a famous frenchman's birthday and you could find there all of our political leaders: right, left, communist, extreme right... Everyone going along fine.

Three month ago, I sent 580 emails to french politicans: 577 deputies, 1 to the senate president, 1 to the President and 1 to the prime minister. Out of these I received 8 answers: 1 f'rom the President (I don't like him but at least he does things right on that matter), 7 from various deputies (2 socialists, 1 communist and 4 from the right). From the 570 other representatives of the people, not a word, not even a polite one. Something else was interesting those who answered were either born outside of France or were elected in the most troubled areas of the country (often both).

France is a Republic which exists BY THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE and IN THE NAME OF THE PEOPLE. I respect that, a very large majority of the french citizens respect that, most of our top-politicians sit on it (not to talk of corruption at all level). Strangely, 15 years ago while taking a political course in the American University of Paris, the teacher (he was american) told us that France was increasingly in a situation similar to that of 1789. I agree and, today, I have to confessed that the most thorough political analysis of France has been given me by an American.

I sincerely whish that we would avoid a revolution but if it had to happen I would be very supportive of it.

Then, I agree with your last statement:

have all a great day :D

[Webstral]

Sorry for the rant, Ill probably get banned or at least givin a good talking too.

With that said, since this board is supposed to be politically neutral, it would be much appreciated if the comments from the left were left at the door so to say and same with the right. It does not seem fair for one to be overlooked or winked at and the other is not. Let all remember this the next time we type.

Me personally I do not care about the discussion at all, but I do care that in a neutral environment, generally this board that one side is more tolerated then the other.

Politics are hard to avoid in any discussion of real world events. We all should bear in mind that sweeping generalizations and wild accusations are easy and fun but seldom factual. We all have different interpretations of what is Left and Right, as well as how much of each is present, tolerated, embraced, etc. on this board. To a hard-core Leftist, a centrist is in bed with the Far Right. To a conservative fundamentalist, a centrist is a radical liberal. There's no making everyone happy. Therefore, if one has axes to grind with the Left or Right, those axes are probably best ground someplace else.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

OK, I'm out of this thread. It has all the signs of a flame war in the making.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Personally I doubt this thread is leading to a flame war. It's been a spirited discussion about politics certainly but people in general are attacking the politics and not the forum member who raised the argument - this is how it should be conducted.
There is no way that you can have freedom of speech on a forum if the forum does not allow people to voice their opinion - however if anyone wants to exercise their free speech they should damned well take full responsibility for what they say and the effects it has.

Now that that rant is over, I'll go on to other things.
Cpl. Kalkwarf mentioned the notion of the end of the world because of all the things happening in the world today. Frankly, I see the media causing this more than any real world thing. Earthquakes, riots, volcanoes, cults, ethnic wars and so on ad nauseum, have occurred ever since humans started to compete with each other for resources. 200 years ago, it would take 3-6 months for the news to travel from one continent to another, 500 years ago it could take a full year. At that time only the most important news was transmitted and everything else (such as a minor earthquake in Australia) was ignored as having no relevance in other countries.
These days someone in Denmark farts too loudly while on the toilet and the nextdoor neighbour has posted it to Twitter, Facebook, My Space, their own blog and the local news. Then Little Johnny Internet-boy in Antartica is reading about it 15 minutes later.

It isn't that more events are occurring, it's simply that more are being reported and what's worse, every time something does happen the media in an effort to make it more sensational, drags up every other example of such a thing happening - even when it bears no relevance to the current event.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

Personally I doubt this thread is leading to a flame war. It's been a spirited discussion about politics certainly but people in general are attacking the politics and not the forum member who raised the argument - this is how it should be conducted.
There is no way that you can have freedom of speech on a forum if the forum does not allow people to voice their opinion - however if anyone wants to exercise their free speech they should damned well take full responsibility for what they say and the effects it has.

Now that that rant is over, I'll go on to other things.
Cpl. Kalkwarf mentioned the notion of the end of the world because of all the things happening in the world today. Frankly, I see the media causing this more than any real world thing. Earthquakes, riots, volcanoes, cults, ethnic wars and so on ad nauseum, have occurred ever since humans started to compete with each other for resources. 200 years ago, it would take 3-6 months for the news to travel from one continent to another, 500 years ago it could take a full year. At that time only the most important news was transmitted and everything else (such as a minor earthquake in Australia) was ignored as having no relevance in other countries.
These days someone in Denmark farts too loudly while on the toilet and the nextdoor neighbour has posted it to Twitter, Facebook, My Space, their own blog and the local news. Then Little Johnny Internet-boy in Antartica is reading about it 15 minutes later.

It isn't that more events are occurring, it's simply that more are being reported and what's worse, every time something does happen the media in an effort to make it more sensational, drags up every other example of such a thing happening - even when it bears no relevance to the current event.

Yeh and the media makes it worse by rehashing it ad nauseum making one incident seem like a constant occurrence.

Agreed that the speed of news makes things seem more frequent. Then again, there are allot more people now days. So there are more frequent human caused situations then there was back in the day.

[waiting4something]

To me the only way we are closer to the end of the world is there is a lot more people. We live longer and less of us die compared to the past. We have less room for crops of food, and oil is getting used up fast. I'm not saying the end of the world is here, but the hole in the dam is bigger.

[Ironside]

I think it was the late Arthur C. Clarke who said that people who seek public office are the last ones that should be given it.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

I think it was the late Arthur C. Clarke who said that people who seek public office are the last ones that should be given it.

+1 :D

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Personally I doubt this thread is leading to a flame war. It's been a spirited discussion about politics certainly but people in general are attacking the politics and not the forum member who raised the argument - this is how it should be conducted.
There is no way that you can have freedom of speech on a forum if the forum does not allow people to voice their opinion - however if anyone wants to exercise their free speech they should damned well take full responsibility for what they say and the effects it has.

Now that that rant is over, I'll go on to other things.
Cpl. Kalkwarf mentioned the notion of the end of the world because of all the things happening in the world today. Frankly, I see the media causing this more than any real world thing. Earthquakes, riots, volcanoes, cults, ethnic wars and so on ad nauseum, have occurred ever since humans started to compete with each other for resources. 200 years ago, it would take 3-6 months for the news to travel from one continent to another, 500 years ago it could take a full year. At that time only the most important news was transmitted and everything else (such as a minor earthquake in Australia) was ignored as having no relevance in other countries.
These days someone in Denmark farts too loudly while on the toilet and the nextdoor neighbour has posted it to Twitter, Facebook, My Space, their own blog and the local news. Then Little Johnny Internet-boy in Antartica is reading about it 15 minutes later.

It isn't that more events are occurring, it's simply that more are being reported and what's worse, every time something does happen the media in an effort to make it more sensational, drags up every other example of such a thing happening - even when it bears no relevance to the current event.

Sometimes it isn't as simple as left and right, there is a political chart that is called "The Nolan Chart" where it measures both economic and social freedom so it would include such political philosophies like libertarianism and so on. I tend to be very conservative morally but except for a few things, I tend to be libertarian because I know "that people are going to do what they are going to do," I just think they need to step up and be responsible. I think except for a few duties the Constitution specifies, when you get government in things, it just screwed them up.

Chuck

P.S., I've even seen three dimensional political charts too.

[waiting4something]

Just to keep this thread alive, I'm gonna make this statement. I don't think we ever landed on the moon. I think that was a hoax.:come:

[Fusilier]

Just to keep this thread alive, I'm gonna make this statement. I don't think we ever landed on the moon. I think that was a hoax.:come:

I'll bite. Why?

[waiting4something]

Why I think the moon landing was fake is because we in a race with the Soviets both on the ground and space. Us landing on the moon would make it appear that the U.S.A. was much farther ahead of the Soviets. How do you go from just being able to orbit the earth a few years earlier to landing a craft on a rock surface in space like the moon that quickly? Why have we only done this once?
It seem like a better challege then just sending our guys up there to orbit around the Earth like we have been doing ever since. It was ironic how our plans to do this again in 2010 got scrapped. I'm guessing they hoped to do this for the first time then, but then figuired they weren't really ready yet. With the world convinced that they have already done this, why risk looking like a liers now if something bad happened.

[Targan]

I don't think we ever landed on the moon. I think that was a hoax.:come:

If you have a powerful enough telescope you can see stuff that humans put on the moon. Including stuff that arrived with manned moon misions. Actually SEE it. That fact makes it hard for me to believe that there were no manned moon landings. Its pretty solid evidence.

[Fusilier]

Why I think the moon landing was fake is because we in a race with the Soviets both on the ground and space. Us landing on the moon would make it appear that the U.S.A. was much farther ahead of the Soviets. How do you go from just being able to orbit the earth a few years earlier to landing a craft on a rock surface in space like the moon that quickly? Why have we only done this once?
It seem like a better challege then just sending our guys up there to orbit around the Earth like we have been doing ever since. It was ironic how our plans to do this again in 2010 got scrapped. I'm guessing they hoped to do this for the first time then, but then figuired they weren't really ready yet. With the world convinced that they have already done this, why risk looking like a liers now if something bad happened.

Do you have any actual evidence to support these claims?

Do you have any answer to how previous claims of evidence have all be debunked?

Do you have any answer to how there is ample evidence from international 3rd parties that have confirmed the landings? (For not only the first landing but the others as well)

It also seems that there are few fallacies in your reasons as well - affirming the consequent and fallacy of false cause (if I haven't mislabeled the terms). Those shouldn't be good reasons to believe in things even when being skeptical

[waiting4something]

Do you have any actual evidence to support these claims?
:p Well, of course I don't other wise it would no longer be a conspiracy theory.

Do you have any answer to how previous claims of evidence have all be debunked?
What are you talking about Willis?

Do you have any answer to how there is ample evidence from international 3rd parties that have confirmed the landings? (For not only the first landing but the others as well)
What third parties and what landings where these?

It also seems that there are few fallacies in your reasons as well - affirming the consequent and fallacy of false cause (if I haven't mislabeled the terms). Those shouldn't be good reasons to believe in things even when being skeptical
You shouldn't believe everything you read, because that like believing in everything you hear.

[waiting4something]

If you have a powerful enough telescope you can see stuff that humans put on the moon. Including stuff that arrived with manned moon misions. Actually SEE it. That fact makes it hard for me to believe that there were no manned moon landings. Its pretty solid evidence.

What do they have up there? Is it the stage that they filmed it in?:D

[Fusilier]

You shouldn't believe everything you read, because that like believing in everything you hear.

Correct. Which is why you always check the sources of any claims.

In this case there is ample facts (either observable, testable, or verifiable) from a large number of neutral 3rd parties that shows that the landings did indeed occur.

[Webstral]

Moon landings are a better challenge, but they are much harder to pull off. We've been stuck in Earth orbit since the 1970's because the political will to go back go the Moon (and spend the money) isn't there. While I'm not even a well-read amateur on the subject of lunar exploration, I do know that getting people there and back requires a much greater expenditure of energy, which translates into much greater cost than an orbital destination. While I firmly agree that we should be returning to the Moon (and exploiting lunar resources), the political will just hasn't been there.

Just wait till China (or worse, India!) puts something significant on the lunar surface. Then you'll see the political will return like a bad case of acid reflux.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Moon landings are a better challenge, but they are much harder to pull off. We've been stuck in Earth orbit since the 1970's because the political will to go back go the Moon (and spend the money) isn't there. While I'm not even a well-read amateur on the subject of lunar exploration, I do know that getting people there and back requires a much greater expenditure of energy, which translates into much greater cost than an orbital destination. While I firmly agree that we should be returning to the Moon (and exploiting lunar resources), the political will just hasn't been there.

Just wait till China (or worse, India!) puts something significant on the lunar surface. Then you'll see the political will return like a bad case of acid reflux.

Webstral

I firmly believe that the next astronaut to set foot on the moon will be Chinese. The first expedition to Mars will be international -- but the way the economy and the will of the electorate is going in this country, there may not be an American on that first crew that goes to Mars. The people and politicians in this country don't seem to have the stomach or resolve to tackle the big projects anymore, even important ones like getting off fossil fuels (which should be a priority for the entire human race -- an international effort like that which sent astronauts to the moon, scaled-up). And our politicians are barely willing even to do something that might be politically risky or cost them campaign dollars. I believe that without colonizing space (and soon) the human race is not going to have a chance to survive even if we get through the next century intact, but the people of this country by and large can't see the necessity of almost any large-scale scientific research, let alone something hugely expensive like human space exploration and colonization.

On another tack, what power telescope does it take to pick out the landing sites on the Moon? It's actually an urban myth that you can see the Great Wall of China or other large man-made structures from orbit with the naked eye -- you need a lens with a pretty decent magnification to see even the largest man-made structures from orbit. During the day, from the orbits that the Space Shuttle and the ISS use, you can't even look down with the naked eye and see our largest cities -- you need a lens with a magnification of at least 4x to start seeing them. (At nighttime, however, you can see the lights from the cities fairly well with the naked eye.) It seems that you'd need one of those huge telescopes like the 200-inch one on Mt. Palomar to see the landing sites from the Earth.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In regards to how did we go from orbiting the Earth to landing on the Moon so quickly, I'd just like to say that in the 1920s we had aircraft made of wood, wire and canvas, then in the 1940s they were made from metal and powered by jet engines and could just reach the sound barrier. In the late 1950s they began the design that resulted in the SR-71, a high altitude Mach 3 aircraft that first flew in 1964. In 1981, the first US Space Shuttle launch was achieved, a spacecraft designed in the 1970s.
So in 50 years we have gone from wood & canvas biplanes to the space shuttle, I think we could easily have achieved the Moon landings. The technology was sufficient and the political will and funding were strong enough to support the efforts

[Mahatatain]

Personally I think that the moon landings were real.

The criticism I've always heard is to do with the footage having shadows on things that shouldn't have had shadows and flags "flapping in the wind" etc. I've always wondered whether some of the real footage wasn't particularly good and that as a result the NASA PR department decided to use some footage from the training on earth to make the what they released more impactful.

[Fusilier]

The criticism I've always heard is to do with the footage having shadows on things that shouldn't have had shadows and flags "flapping in the wind" etc.

Both of those have been tested and refuted under laboratory conditions as being false.

[Raellus]

In regards to how did we go from orbiting the Earth to landing on the Moon so quickly, I'd just like to say that in the 1920s we had aircraft made of wood, wire and canvas, then in the 1940s they were made from metal and powered by jet engines and could just reach the sound barrier. In the late 1950s they began the design that resulted in the SR-71, a high altitude Mach 3 aircraft that first flew in 1964. In 1981, the first US Space Shuttle launch was achieved, a spacecraft designed in the 1970s.
So in 50 years we have gone from wood & canvas biplanes to the space shuttle, I think we could easily have achieved the Moon landings. The technology was sufficient and the political will and funding were strong enough to support the efforts

And don't forget the reverse engineering of alien spacecraft technology discovered at the Roswell UFO crash site! ;)

[kota1342000]

Well, since we're speaking of conspiracy stories and I think Ive had my fill of political garbage, I think Id like to put forward Terry Pratchett's theory about alien abductions and their banning by the intergalactic community as of late. The confusion as to what would be interesting in our BVDs aside, the banning on abductions has been placed due to different species of alien expeditions lying in wait to abduct humans accidentally abducting other aliens who were lying in wait to do the same thing. Add to that another group of aliens who had received confused instructions and were herding cattle into circles and mutilating crops, and it was clear that the intergalactic community had to make Earth a "no-abduction zone" until it was determined exactly how many earthlings they had actually abducted. As it turns out, only one; who happens to be eight feet tall, extremely hairy and with gigantic feet.

[pmulcahy11b]

We haven't landed on the moon...yet. Those pictures were grabbed off of news communications satellites using a device invented using technology from crashed UFOs, which allowed us to intercept signals from satellites not yet invented. We did that with the alien technology, because the saucer in the Roswell crash contained a device that allowed communication with different points in time using a time-space tunneling technology.

How's that for a conspiracy theory?:p

[pmulcahy11b]

Since Kota brought up Sasquatch, what do you think of that? I can believe that there could be a Yeti -- the places it's supposedly been spotted are remote and hostile enough to humans that a breeding population could go almost unnoticed. Sasquatch, however, I have more trouble believing -- I don't think a viable breeding population could go this long unnoticed in the US and Canada, since we humans have tramped liberally across the landscape for hundreds of years, and civilization has been gobbling up more and more of the wilderness in the region for almost as long.

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, since we're speaking of conspiracy stories and I think Ive had my fill of political garbage, I think Id like to put forward Terry Pratchett's theory about alien abductions and their banning by the intergalactic community as of late. The confusion as to what would be interesting in our BVDs aside, the banning on abductions has been placed due to different species of alien expeditions lying in wait to abduct humans accidentally abducting other aliens who were lying in wait to do the same thing. Add to that another group of aliens who had received confused instructions and were herding cattle into circles and mutilating crops, and it was clear that the intergalactic community had to make Earth a "no-abduction zone" until it was determined exactly how many earthlings they had actually abducted. As it turns out, only one; who happens to be eight feet tall, extremely hairy and with gigantic feet.

I read a story in my early teens -- can't remember the author or name of it. In that story, it turned out that the "aliens" were us. Those "aliens" were in fact our descendants, tens of thousands of years from now, and they periodically travel back in time to study their ancestors, and to ensure that historical events unfold in such a way to ensure their existence.

Quite frankly, the possible paradoxes that come with time travel boggle my mind. But I think that time travel is the one technology that absolutely, under no circumstances whatsoever, that humans should ever be allowed to develop. Think of the crap we've pulled with technology so far -- the human race isn't responsible enough to possess time travel. The amount of wisdom you'd need to have to not produce any paradoxes with time travel is probably impossible for any race in the universe to possess. And it's virtually certain that time travel would be misused by mankind -- we've pretty much misused every other technology we've come up with in some way or another.

[Fusilier]

Sasquatch, however, I have more trouble believing -- I don't think a viable breeding population could go this long unnoticed in the US and Canada, since we humans have tramped liberally across the landscape for hundreds of years, and civilization has been gobbling up more and more of the wilderness in the region for almost as long.

IMO it's highly unlikely due the absence of any real evidence and for the reasons you've gave as well. But regarding the bit about it having nowhere to hide... on the other hand, they recently discovered a deer that nobody knew even existed, in Vietnam which has an very high population density.

[Abbott Shaull]

And don't forget the reverse engineering of alien spacecraft technology discovered at the Roswell UFO crash site! ;)

Reminds of WWII when the Soviet got their hands on B-29 that had landed in the Soviet Union due to damage while on a bomb run over Japan. Stalin order exact duplicates to be reverse engineered. Well they sure did, even included the bullet holes that riddle the plane...lol

[weswood]

My theory on aliens is that they aren't from outer space....they're from underground. All the UFO sightings are just drones to draw attention away from the truth.

[waiting4something]

I don't think Big Foot could exist either with him being so big and not getting spotted. They have done so much to find one and never produced anything yet. By now someone would have shot one or found remains of one.

[waiting4something]

Weren't the Germans supposed to have built some type of flying saucer type craft back in World War 2?

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Why I think the moon landing was fake is because we in a race with the Soviets both on the ground and space. Us landing on the moon would make it appear that the U.S.A. was much farther ahead of the Soviets. How do you go from just being able to orbit the earth a few years earlier to landing a craft on a rock surface in space like the moon that quickly? Why have we only done this once?
It seem like a better challege then just sending our guys up there to orbit around the Earth like we have been doing ever since. It was ironic how our plans to do this again in 2010 got scrapped. I'm guessing they hoped to do this for the first time then, but then figuired they weren't really ready yet. With the world convinced that they have already done this, why risk looking like a liers now if something bad happened.

I always thought the technology we would need to go to the Moon, except for rockets with sufficient thrust, was around by the 1930's. You basically needed a sealed container with a life support system along with carrying enough oxygen and/or even an air recycling system. Most likely you would use batteries for power. Radio, we were just starting to experiment with UHF. Space suits, the aeronauts who went to 70,000 feet plus had suits where with some modifications, be able to be used on the Moon. As to food and water, I'm sure you can pack food that will not be messy.

I do believe we did go to the Moon, you just needed the will and the money plus with the added rocket technology from World War II and the refinement on it, going to the Moon was accomplished.

Getting back to my original ideas, the theories were worked out a long time ago, it just took the will and money to test and bring them about.

I think the reason why many people believe the Moon trip was a hoax is, one an entire generation of adults are alive who never saw a Moon landing on TV. I'll be 44 in July and I remember watching Apollo 11 even though I was 3 at the time. Two, most of that same generation grew up with computers, CD's, DVD's to an extent and so on, they ask, "how can the technology of the 1960's do such a thing," it would seem so ancient to them. We could go the Moon now but we don't have the will and money.

Chuck

[Nowhere Man 1966]

My theory on aliens is that they aren't from outer space....they're from underground. All the UFO sightings are just drones to draw attention away from the truth.

That's sort of like the old 1940's theory about a race of underground dwellers called the "Deros." Some say they were descended from the people of Atlantis and Lemuria and in the areas around the world where the live underground, people have claimed to have heard hums like the "Bristol Hum" or "Taos Hum." The hum sounds like a distant diesel engine running and one theory is that it is the machinery the Deros are using.

Chuck

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Weren't the Germans supposed to have built some type of flying saucer type craft back in World War 2?

The old Haunebu series. Some say that when the Germans were losing, they took them to the Antarctic and went underground to wait things out until there is the time to come out and build a 4th Reich.

Chuck

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I read a story in my early teens -- can't remember the author or name of it. In that story, it turned out that the "aliens" were us. Those "aliens" were in fact our descendants, tens of thousands of years from now, and they periodically travel back in time to study their ancestors, and to ensure that historical events unfold in such a way to ensure their existence.

Quite frankly, the possible paradoxes that come with time travel boggle my mind. But I think that time travel is the one technology that absolutely, under no circumstances whatsoever, that humans should ever be allowed to develop. Think of the crap we've pulled with technology so far -- the human race isn't responsible enough to possess time travel. The amount of wisdom you'd need to have to not produce any paradoxes with time travel is probably impossible for any race in the universe to possess. And it's virtually certain that time travel would be misused by mankind -- we've pretty much misused every other technology we've come up with in some way or another.

My own take is that there are no paradoxes in time travel, I see it more like an 8-Track tape than the one string that some believe. If I go back in time and kill my grandfather before he fathered my mother, I would still exist but at that point in time, like hitting the channel button to an 8-Track tape player (jumping from Program 1 to Program 2), I would create a point of divergence where a separate timeline is created. Perhaps I would unleash some "butterflies" and history could be different a little bit or a lot, who knows? I would still exist but I would be like a "man without a country," a person from one timeline who jumped to another.

Now instead of 4 programs on the 8-Track, remember they were stereo, you have an infinite set of programs out there and what you do might create more. I think time travel incorporates some "sliding" (like in the TV show "Sliders") as well.

I think a good illustration is the Christmas movie, "It's a Wonderful Life" where George was taken to a timeline where he wasn't born, yet he existed. Of course, in that case, divine intervention was used instead of science as a vehicle, but it is a good example of my idea.

Chuck

[pmulcahy11b]

I think the reason why many people believe the Moon trip was a hoax is, one an entire generation of adults are alive who never saw a Moon landing on TV. I'll be 44 in July and I remember watching Apollo 11 even though I was 3 at the time. Two, most of that same generation grew up with computers, CD's, DVD's to an extent and so on, they ask, "how can the technology of the 1960's do such a thing," it would seem so ancient to them. We could go the Moon now but we don't have the will and money.

Chuck

I just turned 48 today -- I used to watch every space mission closely. I can remember all the way back to watching the Gemini 12 mission when I was 4 years old.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I just turned 48 today -- I used to watch every space mission closely. I can remember all the way back to watching the Gemini 12 mission when I was 4 years old.

Happy Birthday!!!! I don't remember much before Apollo, but I have always been fascinated by space. BTW, I think the last Gemini mission flew when I was 5 months old. :D

Chuck

[Targan]

I just turned 48 today -- I used to watch every space mission closely. I can remember all the way back to watching the Gemini 12 mission when I was 4 years old.

Happy birthday Paul!!! :D

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The old Haunebu series. Some say that when the Germans were losing, they took them to the Antarctic and went underground to wait things out until there is the time to come out and build a 4th Reich.

Chuck

They didn't stay in Antartica, they left some time in 1945 and in 2018 they'll be back... Iron Sky http://www.ironsky.net/site/



Spoiler Warning


Iron Sky is a humorous sci-fi movie made by a Finnish-German group involving a Nazi moonbase and flying saucers. It's due for release in 2011.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I just turned 48 today -- I used to watch every space mission closely. I can remember all the way back to watching the Gemini 12 mission when I was 4 years old.

Happy birthday!!

[Webstral]

Happy birthday, Paul, and many more!

Webstral

[Webstral]

They didn't stay in Antartica, they left some time in 1945 and in 2018 they'll be back... Iron Sky http://www.ironsky.net/site/



Spoiler Warning


Iron Sky is a humorous sci-fi movie made by a Finnish-German group involving a Nazi moonbase and flying saucers. It's due for release in 2011.

This looks like huge fun! Thanks for turning me on to it, because I've now discovered a treasure trove of similar such fun on You Tube. I should be doing my school work and finding recipes for my son's semi-big person diet. But I can't help myself.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Happy birthday, Paul, and many more!

Webstral

I'm getting older and fatter! Please no more!:D

[Webstral]

I'm getting older and fatter! Please no more!:D

Don't I hear that. My wife keeps washing my pants wrong, and they're all shrinking.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Don't I hear that. My wife keeps washing my pants wrong, and they're all shrinking.

Webstral

That reminds me of that episode of MASH where all of Frank's clothes kept getting smaller and smaller. It was driving him nuts. After one time where none of his clothes fit, he ran out of the Swamp (which is what they called their tent), and Trapper looks at Hawkeye, and says, "What do we do next?" Hawkeye says "I think we'll make him taller." It turns out they'd been secretly taking his clothes to a Korean village nearby where they found a seamstress willing to go in with the joke.

[waiting4something]

They didn't stay in Antartica, they left some time in 1945 and in 2018 they'll be back... Iron Sky http://www.ironsky.net/site/



Spoiler Warning


Iron Sky is a humorous sci-fi movie made by a Finnish-German group involving a Nazi moonbase and flying saucers. It's due for release in 2011.

This looks bad ass!

[waiting4something]

It was rumored that the Nazi's where building a secret base in Antarctica, but was later destroyed by some U.S. Navy Admiral and his expedition force sent there. That would make a great science fiction movie in it's self.

[pmulcahy11b]

Want to have fun? Type "conspiracy theory" into Google and see what comes out!

[Raellus]

I took a few physical anthropology courses on my way to a bachelor's in archaeology and I really would like to believe there's a pocket of primitive hominids hanging out in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S./Canada, the Himalayas, and/or the jungles of southeast Asia.

Unfortunately, based on the complete lack of hard evidence, I highly doubt any such populations exist. No physical remains have been found by hunters, hikers, loggers, explorers, etc. With the world shrinking as fast as it is (habitat loss, suburban sprawl, human population explosion, cel-phone video, global media, etc.), it would be incredibly difficult for any such group of Sasquatches (or whatever) to remain hidden and isolated.

Secondly, if such a small, isolated population existed, a phenomenon sometimes called genetic bottlenecking would be taking place. With a relatively small, closely related genepool, these creatures would be suffering from all kinds of genetic disorders and maladies that would further hinder their survivability.

The same thing could be said of other mythical creatures like the Loch Ness monster, the Chupacabra, etc.

Lastly, most, if not all, of the purported "evidence" of these creatures (at least in the U.S.) has been exposed as bogus. Most of it is the work of good-natured pranksters and/or folks hoping to prosper from their "discoveries".

It would be cool if there were a few peaceful and nature loving hominids out there in the woods somewhere, untouched by time and unsullied by human excesses. Unfortunately, I think this is more wishful thinking and conspiracy theory than anything else. I hope I'm wrong.

[jester]

That reminds me of that episode of MASH where all of Frank's clothes kept getting smaller and smaller. It was driving him nuts. After one time where none of his clothes fit, he ran out of the Swamp (which is what they called their tent), and Trapper looks at Hawkeye, and says, "What do we do next?" Hawkeye says "I think we'll make him taller." It turns out they'd been secretly taking his clothes to a Korean village nearby where they found a seamstress willing to go in with the joke.

Paul! You are wrong! Now go to your room and watch your MASH! It was Charles they were messing with.

:p

[Abbott Shaull]

Actually that was the great thing with having Frank Burns and Charles Winchester. Hawkeye and crew could pull the similar events with slightly different twist in several seasons and no will notice...lol