Twilight 2013

[Gabe The Gun]

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

[leonpoi]

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

How's the initiative system? Does it play out too slow?

I was put off because of the amount of modifiers: your stance, enemy stance, movements, range, weapon type, etc, etc. I liked the idea of all of these things being included but it just seemed too much. What's your view?

[Mahatatain]

Gebe - I'd be interested to know if you've encountered the same problem with the damage system in T2013 that I've observed. Doing a little bit of maths it's possible to get a situation where you keep shooting someone and he doesn't get "wounded" any further, i.e. his wound state doesn't get any worse, particularly with Veteran or Elite NPCs.

I started a discussion about it on the official forums (http://www.93gamesstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2428) and seemed to get inconclusive answers from the game designers where they kept stressing the other effects of combat, which, while important wasn't really addressing the issue I've observed.

I'm therefore interested whether you've had a situation like this occur as it may be that I'm worrying about nothing!

[Gabe The Gun]

I have not yet came across that problem for we do not hit a combat until this Sat, but I will let you know.

[Raellus]

Had our first session of 2013 and all I gotta' say is I love this system, the game is great! I don't see ANY reason sombody wouldn't like it. Its got my vote for sure!!!!!!!!!!

Hang on. Such a strong recommendation and you haven't tried it out in combat yet?

[Snake Eyes]

Well, character generation is a rather compelling undertaking.

[Mahatatain]

I have not yet came across that problem for we do not hit a combat until this Sat, but I will let you know.

I hope I'm wrong but try shooting a Veteran or Elite NPC with a pistol a lot. They'll get to a point where they're dying but won't die until they expire of their wounds after a couple of rounds of bleeding. It's quite hard to kill a Veteran or Elite NPC outright unless you're using some heavy firepower!

Anyway, if you encounter the issue (and it turns out that I'm right that it is an issue in the first place) then the link I posted had some suggestions on house rules to get round the issue.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die. Thats just how the human body works,its called "shock". So........on the other hand, if your going up against these type of NPC's in the game ill-equiped that is YOUR bad, not the systems. The reality aspects are there for me!

So here is a little bit of advice.........next time pack more heat instead whinning about getting your a## whipped by an NPC dude! Next time try a called shot to the head. Also I am using a .454 Casull

[Gabe The Gun]

Also, that seems more harsh than meant to be so please dont take offense, im not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get my point across gentlemen.

[Targan]

Also I am using a .454 Casull

Your character is using a .454 Casull handgun? Doesn't that strike you as a little... munchkin-esque? I have no idea what the tone of your game is so maybe thats normal in your group. Seems highly unlikely in your standard post-apoc Twilight setting though.

[Gabe The Gun]

Your character is using a .454 Casull handgun? Doesn't that strike you as a little... munchkin-esque? I have no idea what the tone of your game is so maybe thats normal in your group. Seems highly unlikely in your standard post-apoc Twilight setting though.

No brother, that is just my sidearm . Since everyone is talking about handgun problems. It would be my last resort for sure. I am using a FN MAG as my primary, an M320 w/HEDP rounds as my secondary. I am not falling short as far as KILLING POWER!

[Snake Eyes]

Two summers ago, my girlfriend said she wanted a revolver for her birthday. I told her to do some research and we'd look into taking the handgun safety class together .

She came up with:

http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawkAlaskan/images/5303.jpg

... a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in .454 Casull with a 2.5" barrel. When I was done laughing ... well actually I still haven't stopped.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well it is the most POWERFULL handgun in the game. Its a beast!!!!!!

[Gabe The Gun]

And tell your girl happy B-Day

[Gabe The Gun]

I think it is a great choice, though I would like to see the .44 Automag in the game..............So limited

[Snake Eyes]

I think it is a great choice, though I would like to see the .44 Automag in the game..............So limited

I'm sure Max can fudge stats for an Automag.

[leonpoi]

I've played 2013 a bit and I think it needs 2 house rules but is otherwise fine:

1. MoS are split evenly between bullets in a burst attack. This replaces the default rules whereby every bullet gets the same overall MoS. This tones burst down a tad. Any bullets that can't be allocated a MoS are grazing shots.

2. when wounded body parts are hit again but the wound is ignored because it is lower than the current wound level make a shock roll based on the current wound level. This removes the problem of firing rounds in wounded body parts for no outcome.

Let me know how the combat goes for you, plus if you're using stage 3 combat initiative timing let me know if you went insane ;)

[Targan]

Perhaps I didn't explain my point very clearly in my previous post. My bad.

I'm not arguing that .454 Casull isn't a great round, it is a great round, a real man stopper. Same with .44 Magnum, .44 Automag, hell .50 AE. All great. What I was saying is that in a Twilight-type environment as a GM I'd want a pretty solid explanation from a player as to how their character was managing to pack that kind of weapon and where they are getting their ammo from. I don't know the details of your campaign Gabe so for all I know it is in a setting where those sorts of weapons and ammo are common.

Another reason I find it unusual is that you've just started the campaign. I ran a campaign of T2K for nealy 10 years (9 months game time) and the characters did end up ammassing a cache of interesting goodies. Just sounds like you have a very lenient GM. Once again, it comes down to campaign style and taste. If you and your fellow players prefer playing in a campaign where you have immediate access to hard core (and rare) firepower then good for you. Its all about enjoying the game right?

[General Pain]

Perhaps I didn't explain my point very clearly in my previous post. My bad.

I'm not arguing that .454 Casull isn't a great round, it is a great round, a real man stopper. Same with .44 Magnum, .44 Automag, hell .50 AE. All great. What I was saying is that in a Twilight-type environment as a GM I'd want a pretty solid explanation from a player as to how their character was managing to pack that kind of weapon and where they are getting their ammo from. I don't know the details of your campaign Gabe so for all I know it is in a setting where those sorts of weapons and ammo are common.

Another reason I find it unusual is that you've just started the campaign. I ran a campaign of T2K for nealy 10 years (9 months game time) and the characters did end up ammassing a cache of interesting goodies. Just sounds like you have a very lenient GM. Once again, it comes down to campaign style and taste. If you and your fellow players prefer playing in a campaign where you have immediate access to hard core (and rare) firepower then good for you. Its all about enjoying the game right?

I'd think allmost any kind of ammo would be plausibel......for a limited amount of time offcourse

[pmulcahy11b]

I'd think allmost any kind of ammo would be plausibel......for a limited amount of time offcourse

That's true -- you can kill someone bare-handed if you get the right opening.

[Mahatatain]

Also, that seems more harsh than meant to be so please dont take offense, im not trying to bash anyone, just trying to get my point across gentlemen.

None taken! <G>

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die. Thats just how the human body works,its called "shock". So........on the other hand, if your going up against these type of NPC's in the game ill-equiped that is YOUR bad, not the systems. The reality aspects are there for me!

The thing is (from memory) that stock NPCs (including Veterans and Elites) have one damage track that is equivalent to the chest hit location for a PC. A more experienced NPC just has more points and so you can get a situation where you're putting additional bullets into an NPC for no additional impact in game terms.

Leonpoi's second comment below appears to address the same issue but for PCs or Star NPCs who have different wound tracks for different locations. The issue is the "Recurring Injuries rule" on page 152 of the main rulebook by the way.

I've played 2013 a bit and I think it needs 2 house rules but is otherwise fine:

1. MoS are split evenly between bullets in a burst attack. This replaces the default rules whereby every bullet gets the same overall MoS. This tones burst down a tad. Any bullets that can't be allocated a MoS are grazing shots.

2. when wounded body parts are hit again but the wound is ignored because it is lower than the current wound level make a shock roll based on the current wound level. This removes the problem of firing rounds in wounded body parts for no outcome.

Let me know how the combat goes for you, plus if you're using stage 3 combat initiative timing let me know if you went insane ;)

With regards to other firearms besides those in the main rulebook there are several weapons guide pdfs that you can buy quite cheaply that have a load of extra weapons in them as well as a load of officially detailed (as in by the game designers) weapons on the official forums. Well worth checking out.

[Raellus]

Well first of all, I really appreciate everyones concerns, but, in my opinion, if you didnt shoot somebody in the head and cause major head trauma to cause instant death, you can shoot all you want in real life with a handgun and have to wait for the bleed out for someone to die.

First off, let me thank you for introducing me to a cartridge that I'd never heard of before.

Now, to address your main point- You don't have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol to kill them instantly. If a pistol bullet hits the aorta or the heart, death is nearly instant. If both lungs collapse, death will follow pretty soon after. If the TW2013 rules don't address these very plausible possibilities, then they need a bit of a rewrite (i.e. erratta).

That said, I'd really like to take a good close look at the 2013 rules. I've heard lots of good things about them. I'm just not sure if I want to pay full price for a system I may not end up using.

[Cpl. Kalkwarf]

First off, let me thank you for introducing me to a cartridge that I'd never heard of before.

Now, to address your main point- You don't have to shoot someone in the head with a pistol to kill them instantly. If a pistol bullet hits the aorta or the heart, death is nearly instant. If both lungs collapse, death will follow pretty soon after. If the TW2013 rules don't address these very plausible possibilities, then they need a bit of a rewrite (i.e. erratta).

That said, I'd really like to take a good close look at the 2013 rules. I've heard lots of good things about them. I'm just not sure if I want to pay full price for a system I may not end up using.

Don't forget shock, its a real killer.
Also of note the .454 will also fire 45 long colt rounds. Actully a better Big Revolver would be the S&W .460 magnum, it will fire .460 magnum, .454 casul, and .45 long colt ammo. That being said, they are revolvers and even it one starts with a limited supply of ammo, they could easily be reloaded, as is in the later parts of the war allot of ammo. You could possible in a pinch, load .45 bullets in them, though those are light bullets. It would not be hard to have a bullet mold made to cast your own bullets for the pistol, you would use rifle primers anyway and powder well you could even use black powder, but that might degrade performance a bit. Revolvers are also easier to keep tract of ones brass, when you unload you just stick the empty brass in a pouch. A semi-auto or automatic throws the brass all over the place and one does not always have time to pick up your brass in some area of hostile occupation.

I would never waist the weight carry capacity for such a big honking piece of metal myself, I would rather carry extra ammo for my main weapon (usually my only weapon).

[Dog 6]

you guys think its worth buying TW2013 for the background, toe, obo's from it ?

[Mahatatain]

you guys think its worth buying TW2013 for the background, toe, obo's from it ?

I think that it is worth buying TW2013 for the rules (even if you decide to make a few tweaks). With the background you'll have to read it and then decide if you find it believable/credible or not as that is really a personal decision.

I personally think that the detail in the rules justify the cost though.

[drashal]

i have a comment on the ammo situation , if this is the players backup weapon he does not use it a lot so he will go through ammo a lot slower than his main weapon so even if you are running at war + 2 years its not unbelievable for the player to have 35 to 60 rounds left for the weapon and thats if he started the war with only two boxes of ammo. at 50 rounds a box which is not unrealistic for a weapon owner to have on hand at balloon day more if the players background is a survivalist type . plus while .454 ammo is not common so are the guns that use it so in a barter situation their is more of a chance that some ammo dealer would have it. i would expect the .22 long to be one of the first ammo types to vanish of the markets long before some of the more exotics

[Gabe The Gun]

The rules are very good in my opinion, I espacially like the character generation process. It is very in depth and detailed, takes longer but you feel alot more control over who and what your character is and can do.

[kato13]

I really like the character creation process. I mapped it out a while back when I was considering making it into a web application. I think it could be useful as it lists the page numbers you need to go to as you move through the process. A note this includes all the optional rules and it is not as complicated as it looks.

http://games.juhlin.com/files/CharGen.gif

[Mohoender]

Doesn't that remind of a thread on powerpoint being the ennemy??:p:D

[pmulcahy11b]

Doesn't that remind of a thread on powerpoint being the ennemy??:p:D

Dang! Beat me to the zinger!

[jester]

Kato,

Shame on you for brining the vilest of things to this group, POWERPOINT!!

NO!

NO!

SHAME! SHAME ON YOU!

Now where is my rolled up newspaper?

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Just an FYI -

I'm the GM for Gabes group. Yes he took a .454 beast. I reccomended against it. He has 100 rounds of JHP for it. He's in Kosovo. No, he probably wont find any ammo. He's aware of this. I will bet that once he fires that thing in combat he will realize both its advnatages (as in damage) and its disadvantages (speed, capacity, and RECOIL).

Gabe created a VERY plausible character and has played him very well. I will vouch he is no munchkin.

[kato13]

Kato,

Shame on you for brining the vilest of things to this group, POWERPOINT!!

NO!

NO!

SHAME! SHAME ON YOU!

Now where is my rolled up newspaper?

It's not powerpoint it is visio. I have never actually created anything in powerpoint. Visio is kinda cool. Below is an example of something I have been doing in visio using my custom built TO&E font.

[leonpoi]

It's not powerpoint it is visio. I have actually never created anything in powerpoint. Visio is actually kinda cool. Below is an example of something I have been doing in visio using my custom built TO&E font.

Nice. And I thought visio was just for drawing lame engineering flow diagrams and trying to draw your house using the house palette.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Just to add support to Drashal's comment, the few people I used to know who were pistol shooters typically had a few hundred rounds of ammo for each pistol. Granted, most of them reloaded their cases but they would often have two or three boxes of factory-made ammo as well as their reloads.
So a possible mix for them would be 200-300 reloaded rounds and 50-150 factory rounds.
For the more unusual/harder-to-get rounds you could probably cut that number in half straight away and prossibly cut it down as much as to 20-25% but there's still a good chance that a person would still have a good ammo load when the SHTF.

i have a comment on the ammo situation , if this is the players backup weapon he does not use it a lot so he will go through ammo a lot slower than his main weapon so even if you are running at war + 2 years its not unbelievable for the player to have 35 to 60 rounds left for the weapon and thats if he started the war with only two boxes of ammo. at 50 rounds a box which is not unrealistic for a weapon owner to have on hand at balloon day more if the players background is a survivalist type . plus while .454 ammo is not common so are the guns that use it so in a barter situation their is more of a chance that some ammo dealer would have it. i would expect the .22 long to be one of the first ammo types to vanish of the markets long before some of the more exotics

[Dog 6]

I think that it is worth buying TW2013 for the rules (even if you decide to make a few tweaks). With the background you'll have to read it and then decide if you find it believable/credible or not as that is really a personal decision.

I personally think that the detail in the rules justify the cost though.

the rules are of no use to me, so i guess that's a big NO. :( :( :(

[jester]

I would think for exotic rounds we would have two extremes. Few rounds, 1 box or less. Or ALOT! In excess of 200 rounds, figure 200-400 or more rounds, of prime newly made stuff in the box and then that much or more in reloads with additional components.

In the scenario presented, Deployed in a combat zone with a 454 Casull, I can see at least 4 boxes of ammo, as for it being the .454 or .45 Colt, well, a couples boxes of .454 and double the more common .45 Colt. With a Lee hand reloader and dies to make your rounds last.

I mean think about it, if you knowingly were going toa combat theater durring a time of hostilities and you were taking a non standard caliber, well the chances of not having access to your weapons ammo, due to no mail or shipping interuptions would cause a person to naturaly stock up a supply of ammo. Primary ammo, and then more common secondary ammo for said weapon.

[Gabe The Gun]

I really like the character creation process. I mapped it out a while back when I was considering making it into a web application. I think it could be useful as it lists the page numbers you need to go to as you move through the process. A note this includes all the optional rules and it is not as complicated as it looks.

http://games.juhlin.com/files/CharGen.gif

Wow Kato! Great job, I think the table you created is a great idea, very good job sir! A+............I can definitely see where it could save you some time during character gen, especially if you had some newbs.

[Dog 6]

Kato that looks very good. Is your M-1 AEV the same one from Armor back in the 90's ?

[Mohoender]

It's not powerpoint it is visio. I have never actually created anything in powerpoint. Visio is kinda cool. Below is an example of something I have been doing in visio using my custom built TO&E font.

I like that second thing. I'll be looking at that program immediately.:):)

[kato13]

Kato that looks very good. Is your M-1 AEV the same one from Armor back in the 90's ?

Yeah it is the one on one of Pauls "never were" (http://www.pmulcahy.com/best_stuff_that_never_was/best_ev_that_never_were.htm) pages

I like that second thing. I'll be looking at that program immediately.:):)

My font is no where near ready for prime time but if you get the program you can use one of the fonts from here. It is not as complete as my font (which leads to difficulties in use I am still working on) but still might be be able to produce neat looking TO&Es.

[pmulcahy11b]

I like that second thing. I'll be looking at that program immediately.:):)

It's an expensive program -- between all his MS programs and all his computers, I think Kato may be rich!!!

[kato13]

It's an expensive program -- between all his MS programs and all his computers, I think Kato may be rich!!!

LOL I rarely purchase anything technical. The majority of my computers (4 rackmount webservers) came in exchange for work done from a company which went under and needed my help when they were selling their data assets. I also got a very expensive router and a web based surveillance system (neither of which I use) instead of payment. Overall these types of trades are fun.

I often get software in similar ways. My copy of visio is an older version which actually came with office 2003. I don't know why they split it out of the suite of software or why they think that they can charge so much money now. (Actually the Database builder stuff is worth the money but the number of people who could use that portion would be so small I still don't quite understand it)

[Twilight2000v3MM]

Just to add support to Drashal's comment, the few people I used to know who were pistol shooters typically had a few hundred rounds of ammo for each pistol. Granted, most of them reloaded their cases but they would often have two or three boxes of factory-made ammo as well as their reloads.
So a possible mix for them would be 200-300 reloaded rounds and 50-150 factory rounds.
For the more unusual/harder-to-get rounds you could probably cut that number in half straight away and prossibly cut it down as much as to 20-25% but there's still a good chance that a person would still have a good ammo load when the SHTF.

Yup I totally agree with you but .454 Casull is NOT a combat round its a hunting round.

[pmulcahy11b]

Yup I totally agree with you but .454 Casull is NOT a combat round its a hunting round.

It's also carried as a "backpacking" gun by some hikers -- a couple of .454 Casull rounds hitting them will usually make a bear or cougar think twice -- if you see them coming in time.

[Gabe The Gun]

2013 is The BEST game out there!

[Snake Eyes]

We melted faces on Sunday.

Maybe Gabe will provide an after-action report.

[Gabe The Gun]

Hang on. Such a strong recommendation and you haven't tried it out in combat yet?

We have had our first engagement in combat and my original statement remains unchanged!
2013 is a GREAT game, I don't see ANY reason someone would not like this game! It is totally worth the money to buy the book. You would NOT be dissapointed. Just be prepared for some heavy studying thats all.

[Gabe The Gun]

Well, it all started something like this in short.
We needed some info. Went to an ureputable scumbag for some info exchanging. A meet was set up. We met. Scumbag #2 wasn't REALLY Scumbag #2. We give them the finger and start walking away. Thay raise weopons and theeennn..................
A PC pulls a pistol and starts melting faces before they knew what hit em' , then my PC turns to a bunker with 2 NPC's manning an MG-42 in a bunker and melts one of thier faces with a 6 round aimed burst. Then another PC and Snake Eyes PC start exploding people from a sniper position they had set up the day before, And when I mean EXPLODEING people thats EXACTLY what I mean! Snake Eyes PC is calling shots w/ Lapua rounds, and the other sniper PC is calling shots with a .50 cal.
It was like a ballet of face melting carnage, beautiful! Well done brother Snake. And fill in any details I mite have missed dude, I was just trying to spit out a quik report.

[HorseSoldier]

454 Casull --> Not a serious gunfighter's gun in the real world, but in a game it kind of depends on how stridently realistic you want to be. On the plus side, using a revolver of any sort in a T2K/apocalyptic/etc setting makes keeping up with your brass easy. A source for bullets with which to reload it would be more of a trick in Europe.

[Eddie]

<snip> but in a game it kind of depends on how stridently realistic you want to be. <snip>

This is exactly why we came up with a three stage system. The default level, Stage 2, is what most normal gamers would expect, striving for a balance between crunch and speed of play. Stage 1 is for the people who really don't care about anything except the most basic of rules and want to focus on the story and speed of play. Stage 3 is for people who want to know the fine details of everything and want to mimic reality as closely as possible, though not to the level of games like Phoenix Command and Rolemaster.

The beauty is, the stages are designed to be interchangeable. You want detailed task/skill resolution but don't care about combat, mix and match the stages to give you what you want. I'm not going to open a debate about the backstory, but the ruleset itself is very solid. Not perfect, but pretty damned good.

[Snake Eyes]

I think the only thing Gabe missed was some well-timed 40mm HEDP carnage on his guy's part. Over three exchanges of fire, in relatively clear weather on a calm morning, my guy went four for six with center mass hits against moving and partially concealed hostiles in previously marked and ranged locations with a Desert Tactical .338 Lapua SRS from a fixed prone firing position at ~200m distance in at least one case thru a cinder block wall. He didn't hit on every shot, but that which he hit, he either killed or removed from further tactical consideration.

And, in defense of 2013's levels of staged rule interchangeability, it should be noted and loudly disclaimed that our group tends to play out on the extra-crispy fringe of crunch - including miniatures and house rules to make certain aspects even more complicated. Sometimes it flows clunkier than we'd like but we have fun and at the end of the day that is what it's all about.

[Gabe The Gun]

I think the only thing Gabe missed was some well-timed 40mm HEDP carnage on his guy's part. Over three exchanges of fire, in relatively clear weather on a calm morning, my guy went four for six with center mass hits against moving and partially concealed hostiles in previously marked and ranged locations with a Desert Tactical .338 Lapua SRS from a fixed prone firing position at ~200m distance in at least one case thru a cinder block wall. He didn't hit on every shot, but that which he hit, he either killed or removed from further tactical consideration.

And, in defense of 2013's levels of staged rule interchangeability, it should be noted and loudly disclaimed that our group tends to play out on the extra-crispy fringe of crunch - including miniatures and house rules to make certain aspects even more complicated. Sometimes it flows clunkier than we'd like but we have fun and at the end of the day that is what it's all about.

Well said Snake.

[Gabe The Gun]

Great combat system!

[Graebarde]

454 Casull --> Not a serious gunfighter's gun in the real world, but in a game it kind of depends on how stridently realistic you want to be. On the plus side, using a revolver of any sort in a T2K/apocalyptic/etc setting makes keeping up with your brass easy. A source for bullets with which to reload it would be more of a trick in Europe.

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

Grae

[headquarters]

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

Grae

I agree with Grae on this - primers are difficult at best to make without proper equipment and raw materials.

I also think that using blackpowder loads in a semi auto or full auto would rapidly clog everything up with residue / fouling to the extent that after as little as 5 - X? rounds you would in effect have a singleshot weapon like a bolt action or similar .Also -getting the required amount of power to move the mechanism could be a problem in small caliber autos like 9mm. Unless you have quite potent blackpowder and reliable loading data ,getting an auto to work is hard -all in my humble opinion .A revolver like the .454 would be a good choice as you could use a hard load of BP ,and because the length of the chamber leaves wide tolerances regarding the fit of the cartridge after its been reloaded.

There has been written some OT sci-fi material on it called "Guns of the South" by mr.Turtledove i think .(AKs in the Civil War )

But when that is said , designing an auto small arm for blackpowder loads isnt totally unrealistic - I believe it could be done .I do not however see that it would be possible to make it very accurate or reliable on the level of modern firearms -you would need a system that is geared towards handling major fouling and uneven quality of cartridge and load .Even then it would only be able to function properly a limited number of rounds -whereas something like the AK-47 can take hundreds or thousands of modern cartridge rounds without being fieldstripped.

Further ,I think the brass would present a major obstacle a little down the road .Modern brass can be reloaded 10-20 times or so depending on quality ,loads etc .But they have tight tolerances regarding dimensions etc meaning that 1/32 of an inch differnce could mean a jam .

In a revolver type weapon this would not be as critical as the chamber allows for this.Most modern firearms will easily handle the pressures from blackpowder loads - theoretically it generates a lot less pressure than nitrate based propellants.

[Targan]

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

I agree. You should be able to keep a revolver firing indefinitely using black powder loads.

[pmulcahy11b]

Most lever-action rifles function well with blackpowder rounds -- many these days are specifically designed for it, for use by Cowboy Action enthusiasts. They offer you a decent rate of fire while still being able to use blackpowder rounds, and many are chambered for revolver rounds, allowing you to interchange rounds between your rifle and revolver if necessary.

[Snake Eyes]

I think the real lesson here is: Don't run out of ammo.

[headquarters]

I think the real lesson here is: Don't run out of ammo.

too true

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I think the real lesson here is: Don't run out of ammo.

But once the electricity has stopped and the factories are no longer working and the skilled workers are all dead or impressed into military or farm service EVERYONE is going to run out of ammo.
Unless they can make their own

[pmulcahy11b]

But once the electricity has stopped and the factories are no longer working and the skilled workers are all dead or impressed into military or farm service EVERYONE is going to run out of ammo.
Unless they can make their own

Two words: Sticks and stones...

BTW, does anyone remember the Microgame called Sticks & Stones that was made by Metagaming (later Steve Jackson Games) in the late 1970s? It was about warfare in the Stone Age -- scenarios included inter-tribal warfare, hunting large game, and one really big scenario that someone came up with in Space Gamer magazine that pitted Cro-Magnons against Neanderthals. Talk about taking warfare down to its roots!

[HorseSoldier]

The bullets would not be the constraining factor I think in the reload process in Europe or other locations (even in US after the TDM), rather the primers. Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??) where as the primers are MUCH more difficult to construct, not saying it can't be done, just extremely difficult. Even more so than powder.. Which lends a thought of revolver v. semiauto.. I think you could use black powder in ANY revolver load (experimentation required for the proper amount of course) while I seriously doubt you could get a semi-auto to function for long using said 'dirty' propellant. ?????

Grae

Provided you had dies to make the bullets with, or the skills to make them (a lot of stuff in T2K is real easy if you have the knowledge to build the tools needed to build the tools . . .).

Revolvers and black powder should work out well -- all revolver cases are oversized for what they are and so you'd better be able to deal with the drop in power by switching to black powder. You'd still have fairly anemic loads compared to +P+ smokeless loadings, but you'd be putting rounds downrange when a semi-auto couldn't.

Blackpowder will work in semi-autos if you're willing to accept that your weapon is going to be a straight-pull bolt action. You likely wouldn't ever get enough pressure to cycle actions built for more modern powders at all, or possibly just enough to get misfires even if the weapon is spotlessly clean.

[pmulcahy11b]

Bullets can be cast from lead (or gold??? silver??)

Does anyone know any real information about using these metals in bullets? I've heard that a gold bullet would be dense and heavy, but pretty soft; it would have poor penetration, but make a bigger mess than a dumdum on soft tissue. I don't have any real idea what the characteristics of a silver bullet would actually be.

I remember asking this on the Yahoo group about 10 years ago, but never really got a good answer: on some cop show, they couldn't at first find the bullet in the body, even though there was no exit wound. It turns out that the bullet was made of ground beef frozen in liquid nitrogen. Other than the difficulties of keeping such a bullet frozen, what would the characteristics of a ground-beef bullet really be?

I saw an episode of Mythbusters a few months ago, where they tested the idea of an ice bullet. Turned out that every time they tried to fire the ice bullet (even when frozen in liquid nitrogen), the bullet just shattered inside the barrel and did no damage to the target. So that idea's out the window.

[HorseSoldier]

Hmmm -- interesting question, and I don't really have any answers.

Silver is nearly the same specific gravity as lead, so a silver bullet should retain energy and such as well as a lead projectile. No idea on how the other characteristics of the metal would translate into ballistic performance.

I'd think a gold bullet would behave like a lead one, only be quite a bit heavier. You might have to use some sort of gas check or similar to protect the base of the bullet from powder gasses (and some sort of jacket as well if you're using it in an autoloader).

[Gabe The Gun]

How's the initiative system? Does it play out too slow?

I was put off because of the amount of modifiers: your stance, enemy stance, movements, range, weapon type, etc, etc. I liked the idea of all of these things being included but it just seemed too much. What's your view?

We have had combat and now I can answer your question. I would not say the initiative system is too slow. While it may not be the fastest of other systems I think it plays out fine. We had fun and the game rolled on quite smoothly. I give it a thumbs up! I definitely like the details of combat with 2013.

[leonpoi]

We have had combat and now I can answer your question. I would not say the initiative system is too slow. While it may not be the fastest of other systems I think it plays out fine. We had fun and the game rolled on quite smoothly. I give it a thumbs up! I definitely like the details of combat with 2013.

Interesting to hear. I might break it out and have another look at it. I agree with you that the details are quite good - especially the gun range and visual range modifiers being split.

[Gabe The Gun]

Interesting to hear. I might break it out and have another look at it. I agree with you that the details are quite good - especially the gun range and visual range modifiers being split.

Yeah man, I would definitely dig it up and give it a try. I really must press the issue on you about TRYING it, the way I see it you really got to get some people together a actually PLAY the game before you can opinionize it brother. I only say this because alot of people I know could have passed on the system as well for it seemed too complicated and involved to run smoothly, but when they actually got some gametime in with it ,they saw as well as I did at how smoothly the system really does run. And it rocks! The detail in the game and combat are sweet, the details in combat really play out a story so you can imagine exactly whats happening. Its something else man! 93 Games Studio really knocked this game out of the park, and hopefully when you get some gametime in you'll see exactly what I mean my friend.

[Graebarde]

Provided you had dies to make the bullets with, or the skills to make them (a lot of stuff in T2K is real easy if you have the knowledge to build the tools needed to build the tools . . .).


Too true.. KNOWLEDGE is the KEY weapon in survival, along with APPLICATION for said knowledge.