104th ID Location

[Webstral]

Howling Wilderness repeats what is in the US Vehicle Guide regarding the location of the 104th ID: "...the division was withdrawn from the front line to take over internal security duties in the Montana-Idaho region." Yet under Current Location, the division is listed as being in Cheyenne, WY. Does anybody have any further information on this apparent discrepancy?

Webstral

[HorseSoldier]

No clue, but trying to spread one T2K sized division over any one of the three states they are associated with would be just about zero actual control on the ground.

Cheyenne could be a viable staging base north out of MilGov's Colorado cantonments looking to move into Montana and Idaho, though, and that region is supposed to be pretty thick with New America, so maybe the location reflects them gearing up to try and move north circa June 2000? (How they got from the Pac Northwest to Colorado/Wyoming is another question, though.)

[jester]

I can see two possibilities.

1.) What is the timeline for those locations in the vehicle guide and the howling wilderness? If there is a difference of a few months, then poof they moved from one location to another.

2.) Elements are in those locations. I equate it like the old western forts <this seems appropriate considering the location> With a HQ element with support forces in one location, and then one of the main elements at the outpost away from the HQ and other elements.

This could be to give some form of stability to the region as MilGov attempts to gain the confidence in the public and wrestle control of the region from that of New America. They could also conduct patrols much like was done in the old west, with units moving around the circuit, and conducting patrols and operations to combat the lawlessness.

Just a couple ideas.

[pmulcahy11b]

Maybe their HQ is in Wyoming, but their area of responsibility is the Montana/Idaho region. Where is Cheyenne in relation to the Montana/Idaho border?

[Rainbow Six]

Isn't Cheyenne right next door to Warren AFB? Would have thought that Warren might be fairly high on any list of Soviet nuclear targets or did it escape in canon?

[HorseSoldier]

Warren AFB is on the edge of town, and I think was one of the listed US targets. Cheyenne itself is in the southern portion of WY, just over the Colorado border.

[Webstral]

According to Howling Wilderness, Warren AFB was hit with a 1Mt device. Downtown Cheyenne is only a couple of miles from Warren AFB. That pretty much answers that question. Good attention to detail, Rainbow Six.

I'm asking because I'm taking some notes for The Final Solution. Howling Wilderness says that New America controls the Snake River Valley from Boise to the Oregon border. 104th ID is given as being responsible for Montana-Idaho internal security. I'm thinking that 104th ID might have detachments at Lewiston on the Snake at the border of Idaho and Washington, which is the furthest inland Pacific port. (Are the locks on the Snake and Columbia Rivers still working?) The 104th might also have a detachment at Mountain Home AFB, which is in the right place to keep New America from advancing further up the Snake River Valley and taking control of the agricultural land upriver from Mountain Home. However, given the condition of 104th ID, they might find themselves in a stalemate or worse against the New Americans in the Boise metro area. Perhaps the situation is so bad that a group of PCs is called in to assist before the New Americans can take control of the rest of the Snake River Valley, thereby greatly strengthening their position in the American West. Of course, the PCs might also be providing reconnaisance and/or Special Operations prep for Manifest Destiny, the first stage of which would be to clear the Snake/Columbia River network of hostile forces so that shale oil and mineral operations in Wyoming can support the MilGov cantonments in Puget Sound and San Francisco-Sacramento.

Webstral

[HorseSoldier]

I've been toying with trying to do something with the idea that MilGov reconstitutes the 6th and 8th Special Forces Groups (primarily recruited from returning troops from Europe), with one based out of the Memphis, aimed towards New American enclaves in the SE USA, and the other out of Colorado, doing the same towards the New America Mountain State enclaves. Very few of the guys recruited are pre-war SF or SOF guys, but they're looking for the survivors from Europe who are hard as coffin nails.

Three battalions per group, plus a full Group Support Battalion heavier on the motor transport than normal (reflecting the scarcity of air lift), with four companies per battalion -- three composed of four 18 man COIN teams (basically an ODA with some additional Civil Affairs assets), and one with the normal 6x12 man ODAs, half geared towards reconnaissance and the other half serving as cadre for hatchet teams raised from local militia (or imported from elsewhere if the locals are questionable).

Anyway, would be one way to rope characters into a SOF sort of line of work along the MilGov/New America frontier in the Mountain States.

[pmulcahy11b]

Warren AFB is on the edge of town, and I think was one of the listed US targets. Cheyenne itself is in the southern portion of WY, just over the Colorado border.

I've noticed that's happened several times -- units are located by canon in places that were nuked until they glowed.

[Raellus]

Maybe it was a typo/error. Maybe the division was based out of Cheyenne in July 2000 (isn't that the "current" location default of the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide?) and then moved northwest to the Idaho-Montana border in early 2001 or whenever Howling Wilderness "begins"? In 2001, one division might actually have to cover that much ground. I've driven from Cheyenne to Boise (last summer, as a matter of fact) and there's really not all that much out there. Cheyenne is pretty tiny. It makes Tucson (where I live) look like L.A. That's a big-ass cantonment but both govs lack the manpower to give adequate coverage to most of the country and the more populous and economically significant regions likely get priority for more dense troop deployments.

[Webstral]

In timeline terms, I think the 104th was fighting in the Pacific Northwest through 1998, then withdrawn to internal security duties. Now that I have some feedback from others, I think having the division in Cheyenne is an editorial error.

Raellus, you make some excellent points about the size of the area of responsibility of the 104th ID. It seems likely that the division would be broken into brigade areas, which would be further subdivided into task force areas and perhaps even company areas. Parts of the division effectively would be cut off from each other. With troop strength down to 2000 rifles by April 1 2001, the 104th might not be a division anymore, for all intents and purposes. However, I suppose as long as the division's assets have some mobility and loyalty to the command, the division remains a division.

If the bulk of the available combat power is concentrated at Lewiston and Mountain Home by April 1 2001, for the purpose of containing the New American outbreak at Boise, Montana and Wyoming are essentially uncovered by Milgov forces (barring USAF formations). Obviously, this doesn't preclude local and state militias loyal to Milgov, but the numbered divisions and brigades are elsewhere. The good news is that the rest of the Snake/Columbia system is in relatively friendly hands. If only a way can be found to deal with New America in Boise...

A little while ago, I mentioned the Shogun [Silver Shogunate] conducting an incursion into the New American enclave for the purpose of liberating concentration camp prisoners. Perhaps this motorized raid offers an opportunity for PCs and Milgov.

Howling Wilderness says that the southern Idaho cells of New America take control of the area in January, 2001. This implies a few things. Firstly, the cells must have been at work for a while laying the foundations, so to speak. I have a few ideas how this might have developed. Secondly, there is the implication that New America didn’t block river traffic until activation. Presumably, Milgov sent a force to deal with the problem, and that force got its nose bloodied, at the very least. Since even Howling Wilderness maintains that things are stable in Montana, Ninth US Army may have moved the surviving assets of 104th ID to the Snake River to contain the New Americans, then deal with them. As of April 1, that movement might either be just completed or still underway. Either way, the Army is going to need reliable intelligence about what is happening in Boise.

If the 2000 rifles of 104th ID are split into two task forces of approximate brigade size, then Lewiston and Mountain Home each can get 1000 troops. Depending on the size of the New American force, this might not be enough. Adding local forces to the Milgov commands might be both necessary and time-consuming. It might not be possible to get underway until after spring planting is complete—later if any significant training is to be done. If this is the case, then small raiding/reconnaissance parties definitely will be needed leading up to the offensive.

Webstral

[kota1342000]

I think I might have a couple suggestions here, I drive this area quite often.
First, everyone is right about canon, Warren AFB is pretty much the edge of Cheyenne, and its missile fields extend to the east and south as far as Ive been able to guess (and thats good enough for a game as far as Im concerned). That 1mt would probably have been spread out across several warheads all set to ground burst as the primary targets would be the minuteman silos, and surface equipment such as support and communications would get residual blast damage. Either way, Cheyenne would be completely destroyed. There just isnt the topography there to protect any of the city from multiple blasts.
Therefore, I would suggest moving the 104th's location to Laramie Wyoming if you wanted to keep it in the general area. It would work as a secondary transportation hub with Cheyenne gone, and it suggests itself for several other reasons. First is that Laramie would have taken quite a bit less damage being behind the Medicine Bow range of mountains that separate the two cities. Also Laramie has the junction of I80 and US287 to recommend it as well as a large railyard.
Ideas about operations in Idaho and Montana are easy to justify, hard to perform. If we use Laramie as the starting point, there are several small oilfields around the I80 area starting from Laramie, and going west to Rawlins, Rock Springs, Green River, and Evanston. There is even a refinery complex just east of Rawlins built around the town of Sinclair (guess how the town got its name).
From the I80 stretch which spans the southern length of Wyoming, its possible to jump onto US30 in between Green River and Evanston and it will take you into Idaho suprisingly fast if youre not familiar with the area. Once in Idaho there is a lot of national forest (the Caribou and Cache NFs) and quite a lot of ranching and small farming as Ive been able to see. Continuing on US30 will get you to I15 and eventually the next city of any size which would be Pocatello.
Getting to Montana from this I80 stretch can be done easiest from either Rawlins or Rock Springs using a variety of secondary roads and US highways that take you through a lot of National Forest, private land, and plenty of small towns along the way. The routes I usually wind up taking meet up at US310 at the Wyoming/Montana border to the west of Billings Montana. Billings has several oil refineries there as well.
As probably all of you reading this has figured out by now, the biggest problem is transportation. Its roughly 450 miles from Laramie to Billings and over 500 from Laramie to Pocatello. Fuel wont be the only problem either. I know from some hair raising personal experience that Wyoming DOT works their butts off trying to keep roads open in the winter and sometimes their HUGE efforts arent enough (much like my home state of Colorado). Conditions after 1998 in game time would be ruinous for road transport I would think.
However this discussion does get the brain moving as to how things could work. There is an extensive rail network in the area though I dont have maps of it. Coal mining is pretty prevalent in Wyoming as I understand are other types of mining in Idaho and Montana. There is quite a bit of oil still being taken out of the area, and as a result of all of this industry, its not suprising to find some pretty extensive machine shops in some small towns quite a way off the beaten path.
Raellus is correct when he says it doesnt look like theres much out there...what we cant see from the highways are the farms and ranches, ranches being more predominant in Wyoming and SW Idaho, and farming being the rule west of Pocatello and onto the I84 corridor leading to Twin Falls, Mountain Home, and Boise. Thats a lot of food that could be put to good use (or not). The I84 stretch between I15 and Boise is mostly rolling hills and some flat areas which suggest itself to mechanized warfare, but also have huge obstacles in the form of canyons, gullies, and of course the Snake River. One blown bridge would wreck an advance until engineers were able to figure something out. Even on foot it wouldnt be easy getting to Mountain Home or Boise. And I dont even want to think about trying to get to Lewiston in the face of a determined defense with the winding river canyons, mountains, and even the town of Lewiston is bisected by the Clearwater river with high ground on either side. Seems like great places for the 104th to be...but coordination would be a nightmare and having two seperate main forces like that rings my "splitting the force" alarm bells.
I think Jester has a great idea with the seperate detachments idea too, it almost brings a "Magnificent Seven" kind of scenario to mind.

Anyway, thats a few cents worth from someone who should be sleeping about now but starved for T2k gaming LOL

[shrike6]

I used to live in Western Nebraska about 10-15 years ago. I can pretty much confirm what Kota is saying about the Cheyenne area. Although that missile field streches out alot farther than you think because I used to drive past one silo when I was headed south on Nebraska 71 to catch I-80 to go Cheyenne. By looking at this map I see there were a few I didn't notice.

http://nukewatch.com/weapons/nebraska,%20colorado,%20wyoming.jpg

source:http://nukewatch.com/weapons/index.html
So I'm not so sure, that they could catch all the silos with nukes if they wanted to. My guess is they were nuking Warren to disrupt the the command, control and support for those silos. I'm curious has anybody tried to figure out what the blast radius is from that nuke going off? I mean would it totally destroy Cheyenne or would there still be some buildings standing?

[Webstral]

Kota, that’s great stuff from someone who has had eyes on the ground. Thanks for taking the time to share.

I’m at the point where I’m going to abandon the idea of putting 104th ID in Wyoming at all. The unit history says the division was assigned security missions in Montana and Idaho. Cheyenne is a cinder. While I see logic in having a security force at Laramie, a contingent from Colorado might be a better choice for this job than a force from 104th ID.

The challenges of distance in Wyoming certainly must be taken into account. It seems like security would be an enormous challenge. Marauders on horseback would be able to take advantage of the distances between communities and resources by striking, then melting back into the landscape. On the other hand, the distances can work against marauders, too. I suppose a good deal depends on who the marauders are. Raiders with horses, good horse-keeping skills, and good survival skills might be able to survive in the great stretches of unsettled land of Wyoming in between raids. Raiders lacking in these skills might be less capable, although a group modeled after the vermin on wheels of The Road Warrior would add an interesting dynamic. (Seriously, are these guys iconic, or what?) If raiders on motorcycles and dune buggies were shrewd enough to hide their movements and elude larger Milgov patrols, they might have a chance.

Wyoming might look a lot like New England by early 2001 in that fortified communities exist in a sea of land dominated by marauders. Howling Wilderness alludes to this idea, and Kota supports the idea with observations about towns with machine tools and extensive extraction operations. Provided the operations can be kept supplied with food, they can make important contributions to the recovery of the nation. One could really have fun with a sourcebook devoted to Wyoming.

One thing that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me is the ongoing attrition of 104th ID between July of 2000 and April of 2001. Supposedly, the food situation in Montana has stabilized. Idaho is an important agricultural player on the national stage, having strong exports of potatoes and wheat. While the lack of fossil fuels will mean the end of (or drastic reduction in) mechanized agriculture, surely some of the local populace who will just be sitting around waiting for their rations can be assigned jobs on the farms. At any rate, stable supplies of food must mean that young men can be recruited locally for military service. Are we to believe that between 2000 and 2001 the loss rate for 104th ID has surpassed recruitment by 2000 men in an area where food supplies are adequate? It seems odd to me. I may have to modify the headcount given in Howling Wilderness.

Looking ahead to Milgov’s plans sans the Howling Wilderness drought, what if the first stage of the big plan is to restore a secure land route between Colorado and the Pacific along rail and river routes through Wyoming, Idaho, and Washington? With this route in hand, surpluses could be shared between the major Milgov enclaves in Colorado, Puget Sound, and central California. (One corollary is that the Pacific coastline would have to be sufficiently secure to allow traffic.) A secure land route linking these places would obviate the need for airships, which would free whatever airships were available for contact with more isolated Milgov cantonments, like the ones in southern Illinois, New Jersey, etc. This being the case, reduction of the New American presence in Boise would be absolutely critical. Defeat of the Boise New Americans and restoration of the riverine supply route would be a major morale boost for Milgov and also would serve to demonstrate to the folks in Utah that Milgov was getting things in hand.

Hm. It appears that the 104th's upcoming action in Idaho is critical. The actions of PCs in Boise could have a huge impact on the future of the society. The challenge in designing a GDW-style module around this idea is to give the PCs a thing to acquire that will be meaningful. In almost every other module (we'll ignore City of Angels for now...shudder), the PCs are after something tangible, like a painting, gold, specific people, and so on. How to figure out what that should be in southern Idaho? How can that thing play into the bigger picture of 104th ID's offensive?

Webstral

[simonmark6]

What about a blight resistant, true breeding strain of potato? It fits in with the agriculture of the state and would be a handy crop. If it was a fast grower that could be put in after first frost and grow to a decent size in time to harvest it and get the summer crop in it could be worth more than all the MacGuffins in the modules.

Of course, if I've gotten it wrong about Idaho being known as the "Potato State" then none of my post makes sense....

[Webstral]

What about a blight resistant, true breeding strain of potato? It fits in with the agriculture of the state and would be a handy crop. If it was a fast grower that could be put in after first frost and grow to a decent size in time to harvest it and get the summer crop in it could be worth more than all the MacGuffins in the modules.

Of course, if I've gotten it wrong about Idaho being known as the "Potato State" then none of my post makes sense....

I like this idea. I'll have to toy with it to figure out how it can be made to fit with an SO-type operation.

Does anybody know what parts of a hydroelectric facility would be damaged by EMP?

Webstral

[HorseSoldier]

Wyoming might look a lot like New England by early 2001 in that fortified communities exist in a sea of land dominated by marauders. Howling Wilderness alludes to this idea, and Kota supports the idea with observations about towns with machine tools and extensive extraction operations. Provided the operations can be kept supplied with food, they can make important contributions to the recovery of the nation. One could really have fun with a sourcebook devoted to Wyoming.


Complicating things is the fact that it's not the best agricultural area on the planet, but great grazing country, in much of the state. In the eastern part of the state it may be confused with heavily armed marauders, mostly on horseback, mingled in with people who've cut loose from settlements to follow their cattle and other animals -- also on horseback, also armed to the teeth, and probably also prone to a bit of opprotunistic robbery if it means the difference between surviving the winter or not. Of course, circa 2000, everyone is still making things up as they go along, for the most part, and so everything's probably a fluid mess.

Further west where the mountains provide better water, fortified towns or valleys would make a lot of sense. There's some sort of petroleum in the area, if I recall correctly (natural gas?), which could further add wrinkles to a complicated situation.

Does anybody know what parts of a hydroelectric facility would be damaged by EMP?


I think just the computerized controls and such. Wouldn't do anything to the turbines in and of itself, but damage might occur from the controls going off line abruptly. The Howling Wilderness section on the SE USA, talking about MilGov trying to get the Tennessee Valley Authority back up and running talks a little about how GDW saw that issue developing -- human abandonment and neglect over a couple years was a bigger issue than the nukes themselves for the various damns in the TVA area.

[Webstral]

Okay, having read through the Howling Wilderness bit on hydroelectric plants, I think I might have something workable, albeit rather similar to Airlords of the Ozarks. Salvaging the TVA facilities requires a workforce Milgov doesn't have. Perhaps the less-chaotic situation in Idaho led to a much better survivability rate for the engineers associated with Idaho's hydroelectrcity industry. Perhaps, however, the cream of the crop are now in concentration camps in Boise. Many of the engineers needed for the job were minorities, Mormons, or outspoken people who pissed off the Aryans in charge of the New American cell in Boise. Maybe New America went so far as to identify these people ahead of time, and they are now being held following their arrest by New American forces. Those of suitable ethnicity are being subjected to co-option efforts. Those not of suitable ethnicity soon are to be exterminated. The PCs must liberate these people prior to the upcoming 104th ID offensive. Success could mean not only restoring some hydroelectric power to Idaho, but also the potential training of a new workforce to be transported to other parts of the country for the purpose of restoring hydroelectric power.

Webstral

P.S. I wonder if the Shogun's raid can be worked into this one somehow. If he liberated a thousand concentration camp victims, were any of the needed people among them? Might a follow-on mission involve a trip to Nevada?

[Raellus]

What about some kind of seed cache, or maybe livestock embryos, at one of the University campuses in Idaho? Howling Wilderness posits major drought conditions across CONUS in the early '00s (I prefer a nuclear winter scenario myself)- drought resistant (or cold resistant) seed strains would be essential for rebuilding population/society. I don't know if they actually exist there but it could work for a GDW-style module. New America controls them; MilGov wants them. SO-type mission ensues.

[shrike6]

I know this is kind of an irrelevant point since you have moved on from it but I went ahead and mapped the blast for you all.

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html?dll=41.16079,-104.86539&mll=41.15132,-104.80694&yd=1000&zm=12&op=152

Note the simulator assumes a ground hit and not an airburst so actually mileage may vary.

[Abbott Shaull]

I kinda look at things in the US especially out west north of the border States would be much like Old West. You just replace the Native Americans that the US Army units were posted to protect the citizens from with New American. During the peaceful time the Regiments would be quite spread out, especially the Cavalry Regiments where you would find HQ with up to Squadron of Troops. Then the rest of the Regiments Troops were spread out.

You will find troops build up where New America strongholds are.

Another issue is that you have the milgov and civgov fighting for control too.

The same nagging questions that we see in units in Europe is still a problem we see multiplied due to the fact that a Division would be spread more out in the US. Units based east of the Mississippi and along West Coast and along the US-Mexico border will be more concentrated, but almost everywhere else units will have to be spread out to give the appearance to keep the citizens from feeling as they have been abandoned completely.

Also you need have concentration of troops around the New America stronghold too...

Just some thoughts.

[Targan]

Another issue is that you have the milgov and civgov fighting for control too.

Figuratively but not literally. By 2000-2001 MilGov and CivGov forces are rarely engaged in active combat with one another. And I recall reading (in Howling Wilderness I think) about unofficial friendly meetings between CivGov and MilGov patrols along the edges of their respective zones of control.

[HorseSoldier]

It's supposedly a three way civil war, but it does seem like MilGov and CivGov don't really go after each other much. In the 2300AD timeline, too, they can't get a handle on the situation with New America until they merge in a couple decades.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's supposedly a three way civil war, but it does seem like MilGov and CivGov don't really go after each other much.

Boy, that would be an interesting player encounter -- a three-way firefight. Which side do the players join?:confused: What if all three sides look basically alike and are armed with the same weapons?:confused:

[Webstral]

After giving the idea of a super crop of some sort that must be recovered by the PCs some thought, I’ve decided that while I like the idea a lot I’m going to use it in a different context. I’m thinking of a moral dilemma for PCs. Civgov has possession of a variety of corn with some extraordinary trait: nitrogen fixing, drought tolerance, or some such. The civilian government is planting this crop in Iowa. Milgov wants some. Thanks for suggesting the idea, gentlemen.

For Idaho, I think I’m going to go down the hydroelectric route. Howling Wilderness says that Milgov would need dozens of engineers and hundreds of technicians to repair hydroelectric plants in the TVA area. The right kinds of engineers aren’t available. What if they are available someplace else? What if a number of engineers and techs have been available in Idaho, but New America has grabbed them to keep them from helping out Milgov?

My research has turned up a couple of interesting facts. In 1995, Idaho generated 100% of its electricity needs with hydroelectric power. This cannot have escaped the attention of state officials. Once contingency planning gets underway, I’m imagining that someone concludes that protecting the guys who can repair hydroelectric plants is in the state’s best interests. The state government puts together a plan to identify the people with the right kinds of skills and keep them safe pending the resumption of operations.

Fast forward to 1998, and the hydroelectric folks get to work on repairing a couple of the plants in Idaho. The federal officials who are supposed to be involved in all of this are either not present or operating in cooperation with the state government. Work progresses slowly under the guns of the Idaho State Guard or another similar body. New America, which has infiltrated the state government by this point, has managed to get work concentrated on the plants nearest Boise. Once the cells are activated and come out into the open, a special mission to grab the skilled workers and bring them back to Boise goes out. The mission is successful.

Now the PCs are tasked with bringing the skilled workers back. One or more hydroelectric plants potentially are within months of being restored to operating capacity. Depending on how many of the right people can be rescued before the 104th ID goes in, electricity could be flowing from the plant by the end of 2001. If New America thinks they are about to lose the fight for Boise, they will kill all of the specialists under the assumption that doing so supports other New American operations elsewhere.


Webstral

[kota1342000]

Hmm...this topic and Chalkline's post about the 551s and the additional Cav Divisions is giving me some ideas...this may take some thought....